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Candy
2005-Apr-04, 08:57 PM
Irish Bookmakers Take Bets on Next Pope (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=050404&cat=strange&st=stranged898oms o0&src=ap)

While the world discusses the passing of one pope and imminent election of another, Ireland is putting its money where its mouth is _ and having a bet on Pope John Paul II's successor.
"Who will be the next pope?"

Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Milan
Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria
Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany
Cardinal Claudio Hummes of Brazil
Cardinal Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino of Cuba
Cardinal Ennio Antonelli of Florence
Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria
Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re of Italy
Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos of Colombia
Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe of Italy
Cardinal Giacomo Biffi of Italy
Father Ted <--- I'm not sure he's supposed to be on the list. :lol:
Father Dougal Maguire <--- Nor this guy. :P

Candy
2005-Apr-04, 09:32 PM
My money's on this guy - Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria!

Andromeda321
2005-Apr-04, 10:07 PM
Father Ted?!? SO betting for him! :D

Gullible Jones
2005-Apr-04, 10:09 PM
As am I... :lol:

mike alexander
2005-Apr-04, 10:33 PM
My first thought was that Ted Hesburgh is a little old, and not a cardinal.

Candy
2005-Apr-05, 06:23 AM
Father Dougal Maguire has been added to the list. 8-[

Enzp
2005-Apr-05, 06:32 AM
Father Guido Sarducci

Pretty much my money is on him being Catholic, and I bet he will not be of a minority.

Candy
2005-Apr-05, 06:46 AM
Good Grief, look at the list (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&category=SPECI ALS&ev_class_id=45&id=520).

PaddyPower is even doing Next Pope's Papal Name (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&selectvcgrp=23 733&category=SPECIALS&selected_bir_index=). I don't gamble, so I don't know how to tell who has the better odds. 8-[

kucharek
2005-Apr-05, 07:25 AM
Good Grief, look at the list (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&category=SPECI ALS&ev_class_id=45&id=520).

PaddyPower is even doing Next Pope's Papal Name (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&selectvcgrp=23 733&category=SPECIALS&selected_bir_index=). I don't gamble, so I don't know how to tell who has the better odds. 8-[

AFAIK, a quote of e.g. 11 - 4 means: You'll get 11 bucks for every 4 bucks you waged if you win.

What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things. And isn't Ireland pretty catholic?

Candy
2005-Apr-05, 07:33 AM
And isn't Ireland pretty catholic? Don't tell the Protestants. :wink:

Lycus
2005-Apr-05, 07:39 AM
Twenty bucks on Hummes.

Sticks
2005-Apr-05, 08:29 AM
I'm betting it will not be me :lol:

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-05, 09:19 AM
"Who will be the next pope?"
You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds. The only thing he don't have going for him is the avuncular mien.


And isn't Ireland pretty catholic? Don't tell the Protestants. :wink:
But Northern Ireland, where they do have a Protestant majority, is not now a part of the country of Ireland. Ireland itself (Encyclopedia Britannica) is 88.4% Catholic, and only 4.6% protestant (Irish Anglican 3%, other Christian 1.6%, other 3.5%, nonreligious 3.5%).

My first thought was that Ted Hesburgh is a little old, and not a cardinal.
There's always someone who will bet on Notre Dame

jfribrg
2005-Apr-05, 01:05 PM
My grandmother said she figured that sooner or later a pope would take the name of Urban. The way she figured it, it had been several hundred years since there was a pope Urban, so that name was overdue.

I remember the way the John Paul I was the bookie's delight. Everyone who bet on the new pope's name lost.

farmerjumperdon
2005-Apr-05, 01:15 PM
I'd have to go with the center for North Carolina, May. Did you see that guy demolish the inside defense of Illinois? I mean, the Illini came back nice a couple times with their superior outside shooting and guard play, but over the course of the game May just punished them relentlessly.

Candy
2005-Apr-05, 01:23 PM
I'd have to go with the center for North Carolina, May. Did you see that guy demolish the inside defense of Illinois? I mean, the Illini came back nice a couple times with their superior outside shooting and guard play, but over the course of the game May just punished them relentlessly.
For Pope? :lol:

Argos
2005-Apr-05, 02:01 PM
There´s an old saying: he who enters a conclave as pope exits as a cardinal. :wink:

Zachary
2005-Apr-05, 02:41 PM
250-1 for Dougal as pope? What kind of odds are those! :evil:

Argos
2005-Apr-05, 02:54 PM
The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

Fram
2005-Apr-05, 02:57 PM
The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

Well, you are supposed to take on a new name when you are the new pope, so I guess Tettamanzi might just call himself Argos I, but I doubt it :lol:
But it's true, you don't have to be a cardinal to become the pope, it's just tradition.

farmerjumperdon
2005-Apr-05, 03:27 PM
It makes sense that you would have to move up the heirarchy to become Pope. The Catholic Church has become much like any other political entity, except with not much of an army.

Of course, in other places the heirarchy is falling apart, including the US. Used to be you had to have held some sort of serious political office to get the attention and experience to be President. Now you can be a grade B movie actor, then Governor of California, then President.

There are even people trying to remove the born-in-residence requirement so that Ahnold can follow in Reagan's footsteps.

Minnesota tried it another way: a Wrestler (the fake kind) who then became a grade B actor, then became governor. Initially there was speculation he might follow Reagan. This was very quickly forgotten (like in 3 days) as his term immediately devolved into a Lucy skit as the Gov became fixated on choo-choos and spent the state into everlasting debt by building an extremely underutilized and financially draining transit system so tourists could easily get back and forth between downtown and the Mall of Amazingly Bad Taste.

But I digress. Ahnold is a nice guy who's steroid use doesn't seem to be effecting him - yet, Jesse was good for a few laughs (how could having a cartoon character for Governor not be good for a few laughs), the choo-choo is very satisfying in a nostalgic sense, and the Mall of America is, well . . . the tourists like it.

jfribrg
2005-Apr-05, 03:33 PM
It makes sense that you would have to move up the heirarchy to become Pope. The Catholic Church has become much like any other political entity, except with not much of an army.

Of course, in other places the heirarchy is falling apart, including the US. Used to be you had to have held some sort of serious political office to get the attention and experience to be President. Now you can be a grade B movie actor, then Governor of California, then President.

There are even people trying to remove the born-in-residence requirement so that Ahnold can follow in Reagan's footsteps.

Minnesota tried it another way: a Wrestler (the fake kind) who then became a grade B actor, then became governor. Initially there was speculation he might follow Reagan. This was very quickly forgotten (like in 3 days) as his term immediately devolved into a Lucy skit as the Gov became fixated on choo-choos and spent the state into everlasting debt by building an extremely underutilized and financially draining transit system so tourists could easily get back and forth between downtown and the Mall of Amazingly Bad Taste.

But I digress. Ahnold is a nice guy who's steroid use doesn't seem to be effecting him - yet, Jesse was good for a few laughs (how could having a cartoon character for Governor not be good for a few laughs), the choo-choo is very satisfying in a nostalgic sense, and the Mall of America is, well . . . the tourists like it.

How this relates to the name of the next pope is beyond me.....

farmerjumperdon
2005-Apr-05, 03:45 PM
I did acknowledge the digression, and will now formally apologize. But it was a well-linked digression - don't you think? I mean, it follwed some comments about what you had to be before becoming pope, which turned out to be mostly tradition - since you only have to be a baptized male. It reminded me of how tradition has fallen by the wayside here, with examples of Reagan, Schwarznagger, and Ventura; which then led me to a couple relevant observations of why such traditions are valuable.

Sorry, won't do it again - today.

Argos
2005-Apr-05, 03:50 PM
The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

Well, you are supposed to take on a new name when you are the new pope, so I guess Tettamanzi might just call himself Argos I, but I doubt it :lol:

Pity.. It would be a cute Greek name for a Roman 'emperor'. Nothing´s perfect...

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-05, 03:54 PM
The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D
For example Celestine V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V) wasn't a Cardinal when he was elected Pope, he was a hermit who lived in a mountain cave under a vow of poverty. He initally refused the Papacy when told of the Cardinals' decision. He didn't reign long, one of his decrees was to allow a Pope to abdicate - which he then did.

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-05, 04:08 PM
There was a twelve year old Pope.

Perhaps school children around the world (girls excluded of course) can write a 500 word essay on why they should be Pope.

'Dear God'

My name is Bobby and I live in .... My favorite television show is...

Argos
2005-Apr-05, 04:42 PM
The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D
For example Celestine V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V) wasn't a Cardinal when he was elected Pope, he was a hermit who lived in a mountain cave under a vow of poverty. He initally refused the Papacy when told of the Cardinals' decision. He didn't reign long, one of his decrees was to allow a Pope to abdicate - which he then did.

A kind of religious Cincinnatus (http://www.dl.ket.org/latinlit/historia/people/heroes/cincinnatus01.htm) (apologizing for a brief thread hijacking)

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-05, 04:49 PM
I'm eligible too! :lol:

but celibacy? :o

I think I'll pass on applying at this time and take a stab at it in a few decades.

(is there a sign on the Vatican lawn 'Pope Wanted'?)

jofg
2005-Apr-05, 05:01 PM
What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things.

For the most part Catholic's have no problem with gambling (Bingo anyone?) Many of the Protestant religions, however, view gambling in a very poor light, basing it in part anyway on the Roman guards "casting lots" for Christ's clothing as He was on the cross.

Enzp
2005-Apr-06, 06:10 AM
Something I did not know about - not being remotely Catholic - was that a person who is married and then converts to Catholicism can then become a priest but will not be required to give up his marriage to do so. So there are married priests. So it is even possible to have a married pope.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.

It could happen...

Maybe not right away...

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-06, 09:45 AM
I did acknowledge the digression
Yes, but usually the words "But I digress" are followed by an attempt to steer back to the topic. :)


Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.

It could happen...
No, "IIXVI" is not a legal numeral :)

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-17, 07:02 PM
"Who will be the next pope?"
You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds. The only thing he don't have going for him is the avuncular mien.
And, now, he has a scandal:

Just days before Roman Catholic cardinals begin meetings to select a new pope, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine mentioned as a possible contender, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio's spokesman on Saturday called the allegation "old slander."

So, I guess he was the front runner after all :)

Candy
2005-Apr-18, 08:28 AM
When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.

kucharek
2005-Apr-18, 08:41 AM
When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.
Today, in the afternoon, they will begin. The new Pope will be announced when he is elected. Each day, they have some four runs. A 2/3 majority is needed during the first 30 or 34 runs. Then the cardinals can agree that an absolute majority would be sufficient.
Most people expect that a new pope is quickly elected. JP II didn't die suddenly, so there was much time to prepare.

Harald

Eroica
2005-Apr-18, 11:41 AM
Tettamanzi to become Pope Gregory XVII

At 175-1 against, it's surely worth a flutter. :D

jofg
2005-Apr-18, 12:56 PM
When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.
Today, in the afternoon, they will begin. The new Pope will be announced when he is elected. Each day, they have some four runs. A 2/3 majority is needed during the first 30 or 34 runs. Then the cardinals can agree that an absolute majority would be sufficient.
Most people expect that a new pope is quickly elected. JP II didn't die suddenly, so there was much time to prepare.

Harald

It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....

Maksutov
2005-Apr-18, 01:03 PM
I'm eligible too! :lol:

but celibacy? :o [edit]
Don't worry about it. History records the many illegitimate children and mistresses the popes have had. The "celibacy" thing is, ah, how shall we say, a "non-issue".

Onan, heal thyself! :D

kucharek
2005-Apr-18, 01:06 PM
It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....

There are times where it is easy to be a visionary... :D

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-18, 02:09 PM
It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....
Over 100 Cardinals, all eligible, and you need a 2/3 majority. Even the media usually point to 4-5 frontrunners. That sounds tough to rectify quickly . . .
Looks like I was wrong and jofg was right, that was pretty quick, 2 days.

Makgraf
2005-Apr-18, 04:54 PM
My grandmother said she figured that sooner or later a pope would take the name of Urban. The way she figured it, it had been several hundred years since there was a pope Urban, so that name was overdue.

I remember the way the John Paul I was the bookie's delight. Everyone who bet on the new pope's name lost.
A Pope Urban might not be the best signal to send to the Muslim world, what with Urban II. My personal favourite possibilities: Lando II or Conon II. Conon The Pope-arian!


What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things.
Well, interestingly enough, Catholics aren't allowed to gamble on who will be the next Pope.

Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins. He actually has his own online fan club (http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/) who says about him (and remember these are his supporters):
As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome, Ratzinger keeps himself busy in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it may rear its ugly head.
:o

SeanF
2005-Apr-18, 04:59 PM
Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins.
I don't think there's ever a time where no majority is needed . . . they start out requiring a super-majority and eventually retreat to a simple majority, but I don't think there's a procedure for electing a Pope by a plurality . . .

kucharek
2005-Apr-18, 07:01 PM
First smoke:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=680577

Makgraf
2005-Apr-18, 07:40 PM
Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins.
I don't think there's ever a time where no majority is needed . . . they start out requiring a super-majority and eventually retreat to a simple majority, but I don't think there's a procedure for electing a Pope by a plurality . . .
Yeah, I meant to say "no supermajority". Thanks for catching that one.

sarongsong
2005-Apr-18, 08:40 PM
Looks like a new Pope along with a new Italian government to boot:
April 18 (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=apZgGw_hh9H4&refer=top_world _news)
"Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi plans to resign to form a new government for the final year of the parliamentary term..."

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 10:05 AM
More black smoke...

Do they've a special permission by the environmental authorities...? ;-)

Livestream at
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/television/

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 10:26 AM
More black smoke...

Do they've a special permission by the environmental authorities...? ;-)

Livestream at
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/television/
We had a meeting at work today. I work in Operations, so we have CNN or MSNBC on at all times. It comes with the territory.

I kept looking at the TV before the meeting started. I'm not religious, but I found it very impolite of a Black Male Baptist to comment on the stupidity of the Catholic Ritual for introducing a new Pope. I didn't say anything, but my impression of this said person is just deteriorating day by day.

Sorry, just wanted to throw in my two cents. I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 03:56 PM
I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[
Baptists?

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 03:57 PM
White smoke!

Let's see who got it.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 04:13 PM
Weird. CNN is reporting white smoke and bells, but this article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/19/pope.tuesday/index.html) says this morning's ballots were burned at 11:30am (5:30 EDT), and the afternoon ballots were scheduled to be burnt at 7pm (1:00 EDT). They're early?

PS: That link has now changed to indicate the appearance of white smoke. It still has "As black smoke billowed Monday from a chimney atop the Sistine Chapel, the crowd of thousands outside cheered. "

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 04:31 PM
I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[
Baptists?
You forgot the Black Male part, and yes.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 04:36 PM
I figured it wasn't males, but I dunno

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 04:43 PM
I figured it wasn't males, but I dunno :P

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 04:43 PM
Ratzinger!

Benedict XVI

CTM VT 2K
2005-Apr-19, 04:45 PM
Benedict XVI

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 04:46 PM
That will be interesting...

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 04:47 PM
They'll probably just have to do it again in a couple years

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-19, 04:51 PM
Ratzinger!

Benedict XVI

Figured as much since they were done so quickly.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 04:52 PM
Does he speak English? 8-[

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 04:56 PM
Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 04:59 PM
:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-19, 05:03 PM
Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?Maybe you had money bet on someone else? :wink:

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 05:04 PM
Well, he is very conservative, but as the old Vulcan proverb says, 'Only Nixon could go to China', he may be in for some surprises.
And it was widely said that after JP II an interims Pope would be good who consolidates the Vatican and prepares the next Pope.

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 05:05 PM
:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

Probably because the way the crowd all started to shout 'Sieg Heil'.

Badastronomy is a science forum and in 2005 the world is still focused on a bunch of old men who elect another old man to get directions from God on what young women should do with their own bodies.

This time next week the focus will be off the Pope and back on to Michael Jackson.

collegeguy
2005-Apr-19, 05:06 PM
We can get ready for all the woo-woos now. Benedict XVI had been mentioned as the next pope in Saint Malachy prophecies.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 05:07 PM
Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why.
aha. You are prejudiced against males.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:07 PM
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

kucharek
2005-Apr-19, 05:10 PM
:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

Probably because the way the crowd all started to shout 'Sieg Heil'.

Thank you very much for showing your objectivity as it is necessary for a science orientated board like the BABB. Maybe you want to greet me, too? :evil:

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:12 PM
Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why.
aha. You are prejudiced against males.
I am only prejudice against what someone says, so yes, you are correct. :wink:

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-19, 05:12 PM
fossilnut2:

I also have to say that that is a singularly offensive comment. Please edit it.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:18 PM
Call me Candy, but what does 'Sieg Heil' mean?

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 05:25 PM
This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.

Sorry, but the immaturity is on the side of the Pope groupies who accept that old men should be telling young women and couples not to use condoms...especially in places like black Africa with millions (yes millions) infected with AIDS.

(a policy this new Pope agrees with)

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:29 PM
This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.

Sorry, but the immaturity is on the side of the Pope groupies who accept that old men should be telling young women and couples not to use condoms...especially in places like black Africa with millions (yes millions) infected with AIDS.

(a policy this new Pope agrees with)
You do know that most kids now a days don't even remember the Nazi's?

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-19, 05:29 PM
Candy:

"Sieg Heil" was said by Nazis while saluting.

fossilnut2:

The issue here is not the validity of the Pope or of his doctrines. That should not be discussed on this board at all. The issue is your use of insulting language toward the Pope and his followers. I would be equally outraged if you used this language in describing other religions or groups. Please edit your post.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:33 PM
Candy:

"Sieg Heil" was said by Nazis while saluting.


OMG. I thought they were saying 'Hi el' Hitler!

I still don't know what 'Sieg Heil' means. :oops:

[edited]

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 05:41 PM
"The issue here is not the validity of the Pope or of his doctrines"

Huh?

Hitler's issue doesn't include his doctrines? Osama's not his doctrines? The Catholic church not it's doctrines?

Then what's it all about, Alfie? It is very much about doctrines. A bunch of old guys who have impact on the daily lives of millions of people around the world.

'Take off that condom! The Pope says so!'

'You' can get caught up in the hero worship as did the the followers of Osama, the Nazis, Stalin and others. I prefer to listen to the message. It is very much about the doctrine. I wouldn't hae given Hitler a 'pass' just to be nice on his inaugural day in office.

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-19, 05:42 PM
This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.
Considering his age in the late 1930s I'd have been more surprised had he not been. Anyway, from the Times online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html)

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.
Forced to join HY then quickly got out of it. What's the big deal?

He also served in the army:


Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

Gee, a German youth serving in the army during WWII. Not particularly shocking either.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 05:43 PM
I prefer to listen to the message. It is very much about the doctrine.
Me too, but you are distorting the message. Take it somewhere else.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 05:45 PM
Huh?
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/liebe/h030.gif

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-19, 05:47 PM
Hitler's issue doesn't include his doctrines? Osama's not his doctrines? The Catholic church not it's doctrines? Then what's it all about, Alfie? It is very much about doctrines.
Then why the Hitler Youth remarks?

I'm not thrilled with the stance of the Catholic Church on numerous issues but to say the Pope is evil because of his abstinence-only stance seems to me to be analogous to blaming the Surgeon General for all smoking deaths because he tells everyone to quit smoking rather than use nicotine patches. I don't get it.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-19, 06:03 PM
fossilnut2:

It is not about the doctrine. You are free to disagree with it. I won't and can't stop you.

What I am taking issue with is twofold:

First, doctrine simply should not be discussed on this board. Read the FAQ.

Second, you are expressing your disagreement with this doctrine in a very insulting way. I urge you to watch your language.

Added: You may be surprised to hear that I agree with some of your views, particularly concerning the use of contraceptives. You would just get a better response if you worded your objections more diplomatically.

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 06:12 PM
Evil?

Where did I say evil? Evil is a religious concept. I don't believe in a god.

I think this new Pope, as did the last pope, as did Hitler, will do great harm to millions. Especially the poor and most vulnerable. They are told NOT to use birth control and especially condoms. Millions will continue to get infected with AIDS. That's the real world of science. Nothing to do with 'evil'. There is a virus and it passes via body fluids. No spirits or spooks involved. The AIDS virus is not 'evil'.

Put someone in a gas chamber and they will die. Tell young women in Mozambique they can't use condoms and they will get AIDS and die. The 'evil' is just the overlay that religious groupies put over top of it. Both actions result in death...death perpetuated by ignorance. This new Pope perpetuates that ignorance. Millions will suffer and die because of some old man's belief in mythology and even sadder is the acceptance of that ignorance by otherwise compassionate people.

WHarris
2005-Apr-19, 06:17 PM
I'm finding your bigotry against Catholics very tiresome. :evil:

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 06:24 PM
fossilnut2:

. You would just get a better response if you worded your objections more diplomatically.


You wouldn't have responded and would have went about your merry way praising the virtues of the new Poppe...caught up in the cultural fanfare as long as CNN kept in on the front page. A month from now the Pope would be settled behind his desk writing memos to bishops in Africa instructing the village priests to preach against the use of condoms. All, however, would unnoticed by those of us in the West who would go about our daily lives not giving it a second thought.

Yes, you are a fellow Canadian. Like white bread and vanilla ice cream. Deference to authority. Virtuous as long as nothing rocks the boat and everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya... I'd even hazard to guess you live in Ontario.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 06:25 PM
I'm finding your bigotry against Catholics very tiresome. :evil:
I don't think he's a bigot. He just doesn't like what our previous leaders have done to shape humanity. He just happens to be lumping Hitler in with the Pope.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 06:32 PM
I'd even hazard to guess you live in Ontario.
Did you guess that because his location says Ottawa?

The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board. We do not avoid them, we just hold them somewhere else.

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-19, 06:40 PM
The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board.
Good point. I'll stop now.

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 06:42 PM
Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters? 8)

Lycus
2005-Apr-19, 06:42 PM
The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board. We do not avoid them, we just hold them somewhere else.

Such as >>> FWIS (http://www.loresinger.com/FWIS/index.php)

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 06:45 PM
Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters?
Don't you mean "loopy the waters"? :)

Candy
2005-Apr-19, 06:48 PM
Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters?
Don't you mean "loopy the waters"? :)
Oh, Men Tock (talk)! :wink:

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-19, 07:03 PM
The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board.
Good point. I'll stop now.

Yes. I'm done with this too.

(Content edited to discourage further debate)

jofg
2005-Apr-19, 07:59 PM
OK, at the risk of extending this doctrine hijack and getting myself a warning, I feel it's important to explain something in regard to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control.

Yes, the church teaches against the use of "man-made" birth control. But it also teaches that pre-marital sex and adultery are sins. So, if a Catholic is following the no condom teaching, AND the no pre-marital sex and no adultery teachings, then there should be no concern about AIDS.

If the Catholic is following the no condom teaching but ignoring the no pre-marital or adultery teaching, then yes, AIDS would be a concern. But don't blame the church, because the person is picking and choosing which teachings to follow and putting himself at risk.

So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue.

OK, hope that made sense. And I'm NOT saying this is right or wrong nor do I want to see a huge debate about these policies...just thought to be fair it was important that the no birth control teachings were put in perspective....

Fram
2005-Apr-19, 08:04 PM
OK, at the risk of extending this doctrine hijack and getting myself a warning, I feel it's important to explain something in regard to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control.

Yes, the church teaches against the use of "man-made" birth control. But it also teaches that pre-marital sex and adultery are sins. So, if a Catholic is following the no condom teaching, AND the no pre-marital sex and no adultery teachings, then there should be no concern about AIDS.

If the Catholic is following the no condom teaching but ignoring the no pre-marital or adultery teaching, then yes, AIDS would be a concern. But don't blame the church, because the person is picking and choosing which teachings to follow and putting himself at risk.

So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue.

OK, hope that made sense. And I'm NOT saying this is right or wrong nor do I want to see a huge debate about these policies...just thought to be fair it was important that the no birth control teachings were put in perspective....

I can follow all the directives I want and still get AIDS (through sex, I mean), if my husband/wive (as a hypothetical good Catholic, I would of course be married) didn't. How am I to know if he/she cheats on me?

Apart from that: what if catholic politicians, apothecaries, whatever, forbid the sales of condoms because the Church is against it and the country is in majority catholic? Aren't they guilty then of every sinner that dies of AIDS because he couldn't buy a condom of the good Catholics?

I know many catholics that do sell condoms etcetera, I'm just pointing to problems with the Catholic stance and the influence it has in some countries.

jofg
2005-Apr-19, 08:15 PM
I agree Fram.

SeanF
2005-Apr-19, 08:25 PM
I can follow all the directives I want and still get AIDS (through sex, I mean), if my husband/wive (as a hypothetical good Catholic, I would of course be married) didn't. How am I to know if he/she cheats on me?
Make your husband wear a condom not for birth control but because you don't know where the filthy so-and-so's been?

That's a PSA I've never seen.

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 08:26 PM
"So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue."


Good grief. I know you mean well but your disregard for the most vulnerable is startling. You are a babe in the woods.

The young 18-year-old mother in some African village should allow her husband to infect her with AIDS because? Because what? Her husband SHOULD HAVE not visited pristitutes in Nairobi and SHOULD HAVE not have had sex with 10 other prostitutes?

This isn't about Western women in affluent societies who have control of their own lives and bodies. This is about young women, already with 2 or 3 or 5 children who have no power over their own lives. Young women who are semi-literate who have nothing in life but the protection of their husbands in male dominated clans. Do you think they have any power over what is done to their bodies. do you think that when they get AIDs they just drop into the MAYO clinic foir their drugs? Do you think their orphaned children all collect survival benefits to put them through college?

People try to help. People come into the villages and teach birth control and condom use. Then the local priest is directed by the Pope to tell those same woman not to use condoms...tells their husbands it is a sin.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 08:38 PM
You are a babe in the woods.


This is about young women, already with 2 or 3 or 5 children who have no power over their own lives. Young women who are semi-literate who have nothing in life but the protection of their husbands in male dominated clans. Do you think they have any power over what is done to their bodies. do you think that when they get AIDs they just drop into the MAYO clinic foir their drugs? Do you think their orphaned children all collect survival benefits to put them through college?
Are you going to make them use condoms?


People try to help.
People try to help in a lot of ways. Not everybody agrees with that way of "helping."

It's a political and religious issue.

fossilnut2
2005-Apr-19, 10:03 PM
"Are you going to make them use condoms?"

No, but I'm not going to accept that a 70 something old guy in Rome should be telling them it's a sin to use a condom. I will speak out against such a despicable policy that brings misery to the most vulnerable.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-19, 11:23 PM
You

are a babe in the woods

but I mean that in a nice way

SeanF
2005-Apr-20, 02:04 AM
No, but I'm not going to accept that a 70 something old guy in Rome should be telling them it's a sin to use a condom.
Not even if it is a sin? :)

Charlie in Dayton
2005-Apr-20, 04:20 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.
It could happen...
Maybe not right away...


No, "IIXVI" is not a legal numeral.

Oh, he just left a space out...

Mr and Mrs Pope George II XVI...ya know, George the Second the Sixteenth...kinda like an eleventeenth-generation Prez Bush...

...that was a chilling thought...

...and ain't that nickname a hoot?...Papa Ratzi...didn't he co-star in 'Midnight Cowboy'?...

Jules
2005-Apr-20, 08:40 AM
The lack of condom usage in africa is only partialy to do with catholtism - it is actually frowed upon by african tribal tradition.

the_shaggy_one
2005-Apr-20, 10:35 AM
The lack of condom usage in africa is only partialy to do with catholtism - it is actually frowed upon by african tribal tradition.

not to mention that unprotected sex with a virgin is widely believed to cure AIDs...

](*,)

Candy
2005-Apr-20, 11:33 AM
The new Pope is starting to grow on me, especially, when he smiles.

Eroica
2005-Apr-20, 02:11 PM
We can get ready for all the woo-woos now. Benedict XVI had been mentioned as the next pope in Saint Malachy prophecies.
No he wasn't.


De gloria olivae
The Glory of the Olive.


Some say that this prediction of St. Malachy, “From the Glory of the Olive,” refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' There is some merit to this idea. But it does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

c. The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Just as Pope Benedict XV was an emissary of peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. Just as Pope Benedict XV sought peace and spoke of peace and wrote papal documents seeking peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI do also. Just as Pope Benedict XV failed to achieve peace in the world, so will Pope Benedict XVI fail to achieve peace in the world. Just as the Pontificate of Benedict XV began prior to World War I, so will the Pontificate of Benedict XVI occur prior to World War III. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. The Arab nations will threaten and attack the United States; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer Europe; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.

I wonder when that page was last updated. :wink:

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-20, 02:41 PM
The Arab nations . . . will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.
North Africa? Aren't all of the North African nations Islamic already (and since the 9th century)? How old is this information?

Argos
2005-Apr-20, 03:47 PM
Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

A pope should speak Portuguese. There are more Portuguese speakers than German and French combined. Some 20% of his flock speaks Portuguese.

Argos
2005-Apr-20, 03:49 PM
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

That was superb, Candy. :D

the_shaggy_one
2005-Apr-20, 04:06 PM
Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

A pope should speak Portuguese. There are more Portuguese speakers than German and French combined. Some 20% of his flock speaks Portuguese.

The new pope actually speaks 10 languages, including Portugese, according to commentary I heard on CNN after his election. I'll try and find a link somewhere.

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-20, 04:08 PM
Language ignorance here - If you know Spanish or Italian can you have a basic understanding of Portugese or are the languages too dissimilar?

Argos
2005-Apr-20, 04:29 PM
Language ignorance here - If you know Spanish or Italian can you have a basic understanding of Portugese or are the languages too dissimilar?

I (Portuguese speaker) can understand Spanish and Italian perfectly. Not sure if the reciprocal is true.

Candy
2005-Apr-21, 02:09 AM
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

That was superb, Candy. :D
Everytime I see this smilie, I can visualize the little guy speaking in Latin.

hhEb09'1
2005-Sep-27, 07:16 PM
You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds.And he placed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_cardinal_s_diary)!

That quoted link is now this BAUT post (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=384052&highlight=bergoglio#post384052)

Candy
2005-Sep-28, 04:01 AM
And he placed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_cardinal_s_diary)!

That quoted link is now this BAUT post (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=384052&highlight=bergoglio#post384052)

Brunelli says he couldn't identify the author because of the vow of secrecy each cardinal took before entering the conclave. Punishment for violating the vow is excommunication.
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/d070.gif

Why tell secrets now?

Seems like a violation.

BTW-Nice job, hhEb09'1!

hhEb09'1
2005-Sep-28, 06:14 AM
Why tell secrets now? Politics

SeanF
2013-Feb-11, 02:44 PM
Well, tell the Irish bookmakers to start making a new list.

Pope Benedict has announced his intention to retire at the end of February (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/02/11/pope-benedict-xvi-resign/1908779/). The Vatican says they expect to have a new Pope selected by Easter (March 31st this year).

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-11, 03:15 PM
They have already. Apparently they're making sure they get money from the idiots playing by suggesting people with absolutely no change of getting it, like bono and Father Dougal Maguire

Solfe
2013-Feb-11, 04:50 PM
Richard Dawkins (666) has better odds than Bono (1000).
18052

SeanF
2013-Feb-11, 05:05 PM
Richard Dawkins (666)
Somebody's got a sense of humor, don't they? :lol:

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-11, 08:48 PM
Somebody's got a sense of humor, don't they? :lol:
Or it means someone was actually silly enough to bet on him.

Solfe
2013-Feb-11, 08:56 PM
Or it means someone was actually silly enough to bet on him.

Maybe he is betting on himself... "I don't trust him, he believes in stars."

SeanF
2013-Feb-11, 09:52 PM
Or it means someone was actually silly enough to bet on him.
I was referring specifically to the 666. :)

danscope
2013-Feb-11, 11:12 PM
Surely .... Cardinal Guido Sarducci will be in the running,..... surely. :)

publiusr
2013-Feb-11, 11:58 PM
I wish.

Solfe
2013-Feb-12, 02:30 AM
Ximénez: NOBODY expects the Papal Resignation!

SeanF
2013-Mar-13, 06:21 PM
There's white smoke from the Vatican, so a new Pope has been selected, but they have not announced anything yet.

EDIT: Reports are Jorge Bergoglio from Argentina.

EDIT AGAIN: Pope Francis I

profloater
2013-Mar-13, 07:27 PM
So it's Argentina and Francis. No comment.

Gillianren
2013-Mar-13, 08:10 PM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."

SeanF
2013-Mar-13, 08:14 PM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."
Born in South America, sure, but his father was Italian, so he's still kind-of-European. :)

I had to go look that up because I just called my Mom to tell her, and it wasn't until I actually started to pronounce the name out loud that it dawned on me that "Bergoglio" probably wasn't a Spanish name.

Trebuchet
2013-Mar-13, 08:48 PM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."

I think John Paul I would qualify as first to take a name no one else had had. Both names had been used for sure, but not together.

KaiYeves
2013-Mar-13, 09:16 PM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."
Also first Jesuit.

grapes
2013-Mar-13, 09:16 PM
I think John Paul I would qualify as first to take a name no one else had had. Both names had been used for sure, but not together.
I'm sure that's what she meant.

First Jesuit, too. Although St. Francis of Assisi (founder of the Franciscans) is more well known, the new pope's name Francis I probably pays homage to one of the first Jesuits, St. Francis Xavier.

Gillianren
2013-Mar-13, 10:25 PM
I think John Paul I would qualify as first to take a name no one else had had. Both names had been used for sure, but not together.

You mean last, but I actually dispute the point either way. He specifically said he was taking the name to continue the legacies of John XXIII and Paul VI. And after all, there were twenty-three Johns and six Pauls before him. There has never been a Francis, and the last Pope to take a name that no Pope before him had even a variant on was Lando, more than a thousand years ago.

grapes
2013-Mar-14, 12:05 AM
You mean last, but I actually dispute the point either way.I think he meant first since 1415.

OK, OK, I'm getting out. :)

I'm just trigged that I didn't lay a hundred on the pope, at 80 to 1.

Noclevername
2013-Mar-14, 01:08 AM
You mean last, but I actually dispute the point either way. He specifically said he was taking the name to continue the legacies of John XXIII and Paul VI. And after all, there were twenty-three Johns and six Pauls before him. There has never been a Francis, and the last Pope to take a name that no Pope before him had even a variant on was Lando, more than a thousand years ago.

Pope Lando? Cool! Was there at any point a Cardinal Chewbacca? ;)

Solfe
2013-Mar-14, 02:41 AM
chuckle.

Lando+Carl Sagan=Neil deGrasse Tyson

chuckle.

KaiYeves
2013-Mar-14, 02:49 AM
Pope Lando? Cool! Was there at any point a Cardinal Chewbacca? ;)
Didn't we make this joke a few pages back? Or was that on one of the related threads?

Jens
2013-Mar-14, 04:02 AM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."

I'm not sure, but he may also be the first pope with only one lung.

Gillianren
2013-Mar-14, 05:17 AM
Pope Lando? Cool! Was there at any point a Cardinal Chewbacca? ;)

The book I first discovered him in, alas, did not record. I have been saying for years that the easiest way to encourage certain impressionable types to convert is to get Lando II.


I'm not sure, but he may also be the first pope with only one lung.

I . . . assume so?

DonM435
2013-Mar-14, 12:50 PM
Wow. This is actually double-historical news--the first Pope since 1415 to resign and the first Pope since 913 to take a Pope name no one else had. Triple, if you count "South American Pope."

I wonder if he's the first from the Western Hemisphere and also the Southern Hemisphere.

grapes
2013-Mar-14, 01:10 PM
I wonder if he's the first from the Western Hemisphere and also the Southern Hemisphere.
That's correct, so far as anybody knows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

DonM435
2013-Mar-14, 04:38 PM
Well, certain parts of England, France and Spain are technically "western hemisphere," so there may be other historical exceptions.

Perikles
2013-Mar-14, 07:07 PM
Well, certain parts of England, France and Spain are technically "western hemisphere," so there may be other historical exceptions.Callixtus III: (1378-1458, Pope from 1455-1458) was from Valencia, which is about 0 degrees 23 minutes west. I'm sure you all knew that, or wanted to know it.

Ivan Viehoff
2013-Mar-14, 07:19 PM
Born in South America, sure, but his father was Italian, so he's still kind-of-European. :)

I had to go look that up because I just called my Mom to tell her, and it wasn't until I actually started to pronounce the name out loud that it dawned on me that "Bergoglio" probably wasn't a Spanish name.
It is often said that about half the population of Buenos Aires are of Italian descent, and more widely about 1/3 of Argentineans. So when you know it is an Argentinean, having an Italian name isn't very surprising. One is often uncertain, when encountering an Argentinean with an Italian name, whether to pronounce it according to Spanish pronunciation rules, or Italian. For example they've got Mascherano, Zanetti and Biglia in their national football team, and that's just the ones that leave me unsure how to say them.