PDA

View Full Version : Hot or Cold?



skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 02:23 AM
Absolute Zero is Frozen solid-no movement.

What is the other end- Absolute Hot? What is the hottest a molecule can get?

I am looking for the scale that demonstrates coldest to hottest temperature. I can find coldest but hottest searches on google yeilds college students and products.

I am serious; What is the hottest temperature achievable? Does anyone know what happens to the molecules at that point?

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-13, 02:26 AM
I suppose that the hottest temperature possible would be when the molecules are travelling as close to the speed of light as it possible. Or until they break apart into atoms from the energy being put into them.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 02:42 AM
I am thinking that the scale is tipping toward infinity but why then would the low end be finite? The top end MUST be a finite temperature. Perhaps the point at which matter fizzles out.

What I am looking for is a scale, model or website.

Unless you know the number?

Reference:
http://www.physchem.co.za/Heat/Temperature.htm#Temperature

I notice they only acknowlege 3 phases of matter. Plasma is hottest.
http://www.pppl.gov/fusion_basics/pages/plasma_heating.html

However, in the startup of a reactor, either initially or after a temporary shutdown, the plasma will have to be heated to 100 million degrees Celsius.

Obviously 15 million degrees at the core of the sun is not hottest.

Ricimer
2005-Apr-13, 02:55 AM
there is no limit to energy density, you can get as hot as you want.

Now, if you put to much energy in one spot, it'll start popping particles into existence (which happens with extremely high energy gamma rays), which will annihilate later (so the energy comes back). This can make it harder to concentrate the energy, as it'll create these particle pairs, which will move away, and annihilate, and spread the energy out a bit.

But I see no reason why you can't add more energy.

WaxRubiks
2005-Apr-13, 02:59 AM
at absolute zero the electrons still have energy, doesn't matter(or somematter) behave oddly at 0kelvin(or so called zero)?

Jpax2003
2005-Apr-13, 03:01 AM
I think the hottest you can get is Big Bang Hot. Anything else is a little bit less.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:03 AM
How then could there be an absolute zero? Theoreticly you should be able to go colder than frozen. It would probably require massive amounts of energy to do it. It should be possible tho.

Would that be zero-point matter?

Does energy increase mass?

If one atom is continuously heated, doubling the temperature each time does the atom grow?

When you cool the atom until it stops it freezes at absolute zero movement. Cooling it further will cause it to shrink?

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-13, 03:04 AM
It is impossible to cool an atom any further. Absolute zero is absolute. You can't get any more immobile than stopped.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:05 AM
I think the hottest you can get is Big Bang Hot. Anything else is a little bit less.

So how hot is Big Bang Hot?

If that temperature were established could it get hotter by adding more heat?

What if the Big Bang resulted from absolute zero being ruptured?

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:14 AM
It is impossible to cool an atom any further. Absolute zero is absolute. You can't get any more immobile than stopped.

The law that controls that is the law of thermodynamics right?

If the law sets the low limit it also should set the high limit right?

What is the high limit?

I'm thinking it has to do with the vibration rate

Absolute Zero=No Vibration
Absolute Hot=Frequency of the universe?
http://ca.geocities.com/rayredbourne/docs/40.htm
I only scanned that page looking for the frequency but it seems that is in question too.

The reason I reach for the universe frequency (Atomic Frequency) is because above or below that frequency is a different dimension or reality or something.

What is the High Limit of temperature?

WaxRubiks
2005-Apr-13, 03:21 AM
I remember reading that to cool something down, you need something even cooler into which the heat energy would travel into. So absolute zero isn't supposed to be achievable through ordinary means and was worked out by projecting a volume/temperature graph to the point where it had no volume(although real gas would become a liquid and then a solid first in reality).

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:22 AM
http://my.unidata.ucar.edu/content/staff/blynds/tmp.html

I may have found something here but My eyes are blurring so I cannot read it tonight. If I find the answer I will post it so we all will know. Scanning the page doesn't appear to show a defined Highest temp.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:27 AM
I remember reading that to cool something down, you need something even cooler into which the heat energy would travel into. So absolute zero isn't supposed to be achievable through ordinary means and was worked out by projecting a volume/temperature graph to the point where it had no volume(although real gas would become a liquid and then a solid first in reality).

Basic air conditioning school. Fundamentals of Air Conditioning.

Good point about projecting absolute zero. I am aware it cannot be achieved. I don't believe absolute hot can be either for basically the same reason. You add 10 degrees to 10 degrees you dont get a bigger 20 degrees you just get 10 degrees.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:31 AM
http://my.unidata.ucar.edu/content/staff/blynds/tmp.html

I may have found something here but My eyes are blurring so I cannot read it tonight. If I find the answer I will post it so we all will know. Scanning the page doesn't appear to show a defined Highest temp.


We can record events that cover 18 orders of magnitude in the temperature range, and we have one clearly defined lower limit to the temperature, absolute zero. Because of this 10-with-18-zeros-behind-it range in temperatures, there are many different kinds of thermometers developed to explore it and many different fields of research.

http://my.unidata.ucar.edu/content/staff/blynds/Texamp.gif

Many thanx to Acknowledgments
I would like to thank Rick Ebert of IPAC for his help in locating some of the infrared files used here and Dave Leisawitz of NASA Goddard for his very careful editing of the article and for his assistance with the COBE results. Joachim Reinhardt generated the pictures of most of the scientists. Thanks to Seth Sharpless for scanning Galen's picture. Carl Mungan provided advice on low-temperature thermodynamics, and very generously served as an "expert" reviewer.
References

Adkins, C. J. Thermal Physics 1987 Cambridge University Press ISBN 0 521 33715 1
Cork, James M. Heat 1942, John Wiley & Sons
Herzfeld, Charles M. Editor, Temperature: Its Measurement and Control in Science and Industry, 1962, Reinhold
Quinn, T. J. Temperature 1990 Academic Press ISBN 0-12-569681-7
Strom, Karen Blackbody Radiation
Texas Center for Superconducitivity An Introduction to High Temperature Superconductivity
Thermal Connections
University of California, Berkeley Properties of Heat and Matter, Physics Lab Demonstrations
University of Illinois - Thermodynamic Research Laboratory
University of Oregon Physics Aplets
Wallin, John; Thermal Radiation
Weber, Robert L. Heat and Temperature Measurement , 1950, Prentice-Hall, Inc
Zemansky, Mark W. Heat and Thermodynamics 1968, Mc Graw Hill

You are the visitor to "About Temperatures" since 21 November 1995, hope you enjoyed it!

Beverly T. Lynds

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 03:34 AM
Dang, I just noticed there are arrows at both ends of the scale suggesting ranges in either directions are possible but not mentioned.

I don't believe my original quest has been fulfilled.

What is the temperature of Absolute Hot?


Sorry but this is real time knowlege seeking...

Enzp
2005-Apr-13, 04:03 AM
Cooling an atom to absolute zero is not like freezing water. A total lack of heat is the total lack of motion in the particle. Removing the last fraction of a degree is not so much about bringing something colder to the mix, it is about finding ways to stop the motion of the atom in question. Outside forces like magnetic fields and light can be used to bring said motion to a halt.

Like the man said, there is nothing slower than stopped.

The idea that since there is a lower limit there must be a higher limit is not valid. They are not related. If I drop my sandwich, it falls until it hits the ground. That is the lower limit. But if I am outdoors, there is no limit to how high it could go, given the propulsion.

Temperature is a measure of energy in the thing observed. If you get something hot enough, a molecule will break down because the heat energy exceeds the energy of the bonds between the atoms in it. Heat it further and the atom will break down. Keep adding energy and presumably you could break down the ssmaller parts. If you found a point where there were no smaller parts to dissolve into, there would still be the potential to add energy to the smallest parts. They just would move faster.

Is the Big Bang the upper limit on hot? I don't know, what if the original mass of the BB had been larger, then presumably the thing could have been even hotter than what we had here.

Those arrows on the bottom of the temperature scale do not imply that the temp goes below abs zero, they are just adding zeros to the vanishingly small fraction of a degree the temperature represents. Notice the scale reads in microKelvins and NanoKelvins and so on. SO at the bottom, the temp is one billionth of a degree above AZ. You can go further and talk of one trillionth of a degree and so on, but no matter what, it doesn't become less than AZ.

I won't get into whether .00000...00001 degree is the same as zero degrees.

Jpax2003
2005-Apr-13, 04:04 AM
I think the hottest you can get is Big Bang Hot. Anything else is a little bit less.

So how hot is Big Bang Hot?

If that temperature were established could it get hotter by adding more heat?

What if the Big Bang resulted from absolute zero being ruptured?Big bang hot is the temperature achieved by having the heat and pressure of all the matter and energy in the universe confined in an area about the size of a singularity.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 04:19 AM
I guess trying to find an answer is like asking where the edge of the universe is at.

let it go....

Jpax2003
2005-Apr-13, 04:37 AM
I guess trying to find an answer is like asking where the edge of the universe is at.

let it go....According to this page (http://astron.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/bbn.html) the temperature at the big bang was about 10^32 Kelvin. However some other pages list the temperature as a mere 100 billion Kelvin. I think that is the maximum temperature attainable in this universe.

WaxRubiks
2005-Apr-13, 04:49 AM
Perhaps we'll find out, if there is a BigCrunch..... :o :o

lti
2005-Apr-13, 05:39 AM
many of u have mentioned it, but i feel the need to reiterate.
but first maybe a little defining of terms is in order.

A common mistake is to confuse Heat and Temperature. They are different.

Heat energy is defined as the average kinetic energy of a particle.

Total Internal Energy is defined as the total energy an object has. This is the kinetic energy an object has plus energy held in chemical bonds. - measured in Joules (or calories for u americans i think)

Temperature is a measure of the direction of heat flow. Heat (energy) will flow from something with a higher temperature to something with a lower temperature. Temperature is measured in Kelvins starting at zero and going to infinity. (other units are degrees Celcius/Centigrade an arbitrary scale whereby there are 100 devisions between water freezing and boiling and water freezing is defined as zero. another arbitrary scale is degrees farenheit, but i dont know how that works.)

Absolute zero (0 K) is the coldest achievable temperature. It is only theoretical because in order to get to 0 K u would need an object with lower temp in order for heat flow to occur. this blatantly isnt possible.
At absolute zero, an object has zero energy. u can not have less than zero energy, so this is the coldest u can geat. At absolute zero u have zero energy, that means zero movement, zero heat. nada. zilch. u cant get colder.

The other end of the scale is up to infinity. there is no theoretical maximum amount of energy something can have.

The analogy to a rock dropping to the ground is fairly good in relating the concept that just because something is bounded at one end, doesnt mean it is bounded at the other.

skwirlinator
2005-Apr-13, 06:25 AM
That really does make a lot of sense. Thanx!

There is no top end. I can live with that.