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Nergal
2005-Apr-29, 06:58 PM
Discuss: Foreign Workers Housed on Boats Offshore (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/28/170632.shtml)

In an outrageous affront to U.S. labor laws, a California company plans to anchor a 600-cabin cruise ship just beyond the three-mile limit off the coast of El Segundo, near Los Angeles, and stock it with foreign software programmers.
This goes so far beyond the pale that it really defies my ability to describe...

Candy
2005-Apr-30, 02:21 AM
"Outsourcing" which has become synonymous with sending American jobs to India or China could soon mean foreign workers sleeping in ships just a few miles off America's coasts.
Why go through all the trouble? We outsource to Canada and India. What's wrong with Canada? I wonder why the focus has shifted away from Mexico, too. 8-[

Brady Yoon
2005-Apr-30, 02:52 AM
I wish the jobs could stay in the USA... This is a shame.

Enzp
2005-Apr-30, 03:16 AM
As a nation we love to lament the changes in the economy.

We don't go pay the farmer for our food, we buy it in a grocery store, and the farmer gets a fraction of the price. We don't hire musicians to play music in our homes, we go to Best Buy and get CDs and the musician gets a fraction of the price. We outsource things all day long in our lives. Yet when a company does it, they are pigs.

I also wonder why bother. A programmer can sit at a terminal anywhere in the world, why bother to move him somewhere and incur the expense of keeping up a cruise ship?

Candy
2005-Apr-30, 03:44 AM
I think of outsourcing more like globalization.

One of our newest "offices" in India is a hoot. I have the task of shutting off or turning on traffic (reservations calls) to their locations (CTI). They are the nicest people I have had interaction with in along time (besides Honolulu).

When they call me to open their location, I always say, "Is it time for me to turn you on" (using my best British accent)? They just get a kick out of Americans. 8)

[edited to add additional information]

Kristophe
2005-Apr-30, 03:51 AM
What's wrong with Canada?

International waters have fewer labour laws than Canada does.

Sammy
2005-Apr-30, 03:55 AM
Frankly, I give anything on that site as much credibility as I do stuff on GLP.

The proposal is laughable on the face of it. Why go to the expense of buy/leasing a cruise ship, schlepping it crewing and operating it, providing logistic support (food, expensive fuel, medical care), and setting up the broadband communications that would be needed? The same guys would do the same work at far less expense in their native locales.

It should have been dated April 1.

Evan
2005-Apr-30, 06:34 AM
Candy said:

We outsource to Canada

I don't think that can be considered outsourcing. The trade between the US and Canada is nearly equal. We buy as much stuff from the US as the US buys from us and the standard of living is equal. Wages are similar as is the regulatory environment.

Candy
2005-Apr-30, 06:47 AM
Candy said:

We outsource to Canada

I don't think that can be considered outsourcing. The trade between the US and Canada is nearly equal. We buy as much stuff from the US as the US buys from us and the standard of living is equal. Wages are similar as is the regulatory environment.
When I said we, I meant my company. We have outsourced a small amount of work (Passenger - Reservations and Cargo) to EDS in Canada. This was just prior to outsourcing additional work to India.

We call both locations outsourcing.

kucharek
2005-Apr-30, 07:52 AM
Outsourcing just means, that work that has been done in your company until now is now done by some other company. What we are talking about here is offshoring and in this case, it seems someone took the word literally.

What we have today is often unpleaseant, but I think its a nearly unavoidable step towards a worlds where all countries participate in wealth. And as it was already expressed, as long as we always buy the cheapest stuff but want to be well payed when we produce it, we are the problem.

Waarthog
2005-Apr-30, 08:31 PM
Frankly, I give anything on that site as much credibility as I do stuff on GLP.

Well, looks like in this case they got it right. (http://www.sea-code.com/)

If this is a fake, its a damn good one.

Candy
2005-Apr-30, 08:41 PM
Frankly, I give anything on that site as much credibility as I do stuff on GLP.

Well, looks like in this case they got it right. (http://www.sea-code.com/)

If this is a fake, its a damn good one.

SeaCode presents an innovative service which offers the reduced costs of distant-shore software development while providing the operational benefits and accessibility of a U.S. based onshore location.

Another SeaCode benefit is that 90% of revenue stays in the U.S. instead of flowing out of the U.S. to distant-shore outsourcing locations.
Interesting.

snowcelt
2005-May-01, 07:15 AM
During the American period of prohibition, Canadians became wealthy because they sat 3 miles, off shore, and sold Canadian Club, Crown Royal, and other rye whiskies . Before prohibition, the only people that drank rye whisky were Canadians.

Humm. Let me think, if I prohibit labour, everything will work out.

Sammy
2005-May-01, 04:21 PM
Nothing on that site convinces me. It just makes no sense--the advantages claimed have little or no relevance to the fact that it's on a ship--all the same things could apply to any work site. They don't address the ship cost issue at all. In addition, they tout that "90% of the revenue stays in the U.S." How is that different if they rent a building in Delhi and pay Indian nationals the local rate to work there? The revenue still stays in the U.S. And they still got to pay the people working on the ship, as well as all the costs of the ship (way more than trenting a building in India).

And, if it's not subject to U.S. labor laws, etc., hiow would the work product be covered by U.S. intellectual property laws?

As they say in Russia, Bski Ski...

tmosher
2005-May-01, 04:40 PM
Three miles offshore?

From what I've read, US law is enforceable up to 24 miles offshore by presidential proclamation while UN treaties place territorial waters at twelve miles offshore.

mopc
2005-May-02, 06:01 AM
It really amazes me that people in the USA and Europe whine so much about outsourcing. It's the free market. People should complain more about foreign aid, which so many times just goes nowhere.

What about the outsourcing that most countries do to the USA and Europe? Whenever someone buys the technology from the US or Europe, like a computer, a car, an airplane, they are 'outsourcing' their money to patent holders mostly in the USA and Europe, besides Japan, Korea, etc., even when the product itself is produced locally.

Whenever a company in India develops software, it usually first has to buy technology that is intellectual property of the USA. They're generating jobs in the USA.

So 90% of the 'outsourcing' flows from the world to the USA, Europe and Japan. What's wrong with creating jobs around the world?

Notice that I avoid the terms 'rich countries' versus 'poor countries', I think that is an inefficient classification, wealth and poverty exist everywhere, albeit unevenly distributed.

Brazil's aerospace corporation Embraer for instance is 'outsourcing' jobs to the USA this very moment as it builds an airplane factory in that country, to provide aircraft to the US military. Should it have been built in Brazil, that unit would generate thousands of quality jobs. Some Brazilians are whining, but I say let's give the US jobs, it enriches us anyway, even more than a local plant.

The issue is that the US and especially Europe have highly inflated costs. Here in Brazil any US$800/month keeps a middle class home going, with car and internet. I was in Europe last year and prices really scared me there, especially food, which is so cheap here.

TriangleMan
2005-May-02, 11:23 AM
Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2005/0509/048.html) has an article on it now.

I'm not sure about the business merits of the proposal. It would be cheaper to just keep the programmers in India or Russia and pay them there. Include the heavy upfront costs for this project ($10m for the ship, lots of legal fees to try to get permission and avoid the taxes) and I don't see it being as profitable as an operation in India.

Candy
2005-May-02, 11:29 AM
I wonder if the off shore location has something to do with the communications issues with outsourcing, verbally and networking.

tmosher
2005-May-02, 11:41 AM
It really amazes me that people in the USA and Europe whine so much about outsourcing. It's the free market. People should complain more about foreign aid, which so many times just goes nowhere.

What about the outsourcing that most countries do to the USA and Europe? Whenever someone buys the technology from the US or Europe, like a computer, a car, an airplane, they are 'outsourcing' their money to patent holders mostly in the USA and Europe, besides Japan, Korea, etc., even when the product itself is produced locally.

Whenever a company in India develops software, it usually first has to buy technology that is intellectual property of the USA. They're generating jobs in the USA.

So 90% of the 'outsourcing' flows from the world to the USA, Europe and Japan. What's wrong with creating jobs around the world?

Notice that I avoid the terms 'rich countries' versus 'poor countries', I think that is an inefficient classification, wealth and poverty exist everywhere, albeit unevenly distributed.

Brazil's aerospace corporation Embraer for instance is 'outsourcing' jobs to the USA this very moment as it builds an airplane factory in that country, to provide aircraft to the US military. Should it have been built in Brazil, that unit would generate thousands of quality jobs. Some Brazilians are whining, but I say let's give the US jobs, it enriches us anyway, even more than a local plant.

The issue is that the US and especially Europe have highly inflated costs. Here in Brazil any US$800/month keeps a middle class home going, with car and internet. I was in Europe last year and prices really scared me there, especially food, which is so cheap here.

I know about the Embraer contract - it's for the Airborne Common Sensor (ACS). It produces jobs in more ways than one - first the manufacturing jobs in the US for the forty-odd aircraft plus support jobs to maintain the aircraft because Brazilian employees would not be able to go near the airplane once it is outfitted for it's mission (systems are classified).

Funny thing is that if the Army had gone with the Gulfstream airframe, not as many jobs would have been created in the US.

mopc
2005-May-02, 06:02 PM
It really amazes me that people in the USA and Europe whine so much about outsourcing. It's the free market. People should complain more about foreign aid, which so many times just goes nowhere.

What about the outsourcing that most countries do to the USA and Europe? Whenever someone buys the technology from the US or Europe, like a computer, a car, an airplane, they are 'outsourcing' their money to patent holders mostly in the USA and Europe, besides Japan, Korea, etc., even when the product itself is produced locally.

Whenever a company in India develops software, it usually first has to buy technology that is intellectual property of the USA. They're generating jobs in the USA.

So 90% of the 'outsourcing' flows from the world to the USA, Europe and Japan. What's wrong with creating jobs around the world?

Notice that I avoid the terms 'rich countries' versus 'poor countries', I think that is an inefficient classification, wealth and poverty exist everywhere, albeit unevenly distributed.

Brazil's aerospace corporation Embraer for instance is 'outsourcing' jobs to the USA this very moment as it builds an airplane factory in that country, to provide aircraft to the US military. Should it have been built in Brazil, that unit would generate thousands of quality jobs. Some Brazilians are whining, but I say let's give the US jobs, it enriches us anyway, even more than a local plant.

The issue is that the US and especially Europe have highly inflated costs. Here in Brazil any US$800/month keeps a middle class home going, with car and internet. I was in Europe last year and prices really scared me there, especially food, which is so cheap here.

I know about the Embraer contract - it's for the Airborne Common Sensor (ACS). It produces jobs in more ways than one - first the manufacturing jobs in the US for the forty-odd aircraft plus support jobs to maintain the aircraft because Brazilian employees would not be able to go near the airplane once it is outfitted for it's mission (systems are classified).

Funny thing is that if the Army had gone with the Gulfstream airframe, not as many jobs would have been created in the US.

Thanks for the info, I knew very little about the project... maybe because I'm Brazilian and stuff is classifiied! :)

On the other hand, as a cheap country, Brazil has been getting very little of that outsourcing wave, I guess...