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View Full Version : Unreal L.A. Shootout



sarongsong
2005-May-10, 02:34 PM
May 10, 2005 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/10/earlyshow/main694133.shtml)
"...It happened so fast, but when the smoke cleared, police found no weapon inside the vehicle. The suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, was injured, along with one sheriff's deputy, shot by other deputies..."

Evan
2005-May-10, 03:13 PM
Did you see the video on TV? The imbeciles (police) were on opposite sides of the street shooting at the vehicle in the middle. It almost reminded me of the scene in The Gauntlet.

Stregone
2005-May-10, 03:14 PM
I knew those cops were going to shoot each other when I saw the video. The car moved forward directly between the cops on each side of the road and the they kept firing. On the news this morning they showed pictures of bullet holes in windows of houses on that street. Its amazing more people weren't hurt.

Metricyard
2005-May-10, 03:30 PM
I knew those cops were going to shoot each other when I saw the video. The car moved forward directly between the cops on each side of the road and the they kept firing. On the news this morning they showed pictures of bullet holes in windows of houses on that street. Its amazing more people weren't hurt.

What really supprises me, is you have a whole lot of officers firing their weapons, and not hitting much of anything. I think a refresher course in marksmanship is in order.

Captain Kidd
2005-May-10, 03:45 PM
That one of the officers waved the cameraman away with his gun got my attention. Yes, adrenalin levels are high in such a situation, but that's what training is for. He caught himself after the third wave and changed hands, but it had me wondering right at first if he was actually threatening the cameraman.

They may want to examine this video and adjust their training program some.

I'm really trying to not be an armchair quarterback, but some of the errors they did were fairly blatant.

Stregone
2005-May-10, 04:27 PM
I knew those cops were going to shoot each other when I saw the video. The car moved forward directly between the cops on each side of the road and the they kept firing. On the news this morning they showed pictures of bullet holes in windows of houses on that street. Its amazing more people weren't hurt.

What really supprises me, is you have a whole lot of officers firing their weapons, and not hitting much of anything. I think a refresher course in marksmanship is in order.

No kidding. On the news I just heard that they fired 120 rounds, earlier I heard 90. Either way thats alot of shots fired.

Lurker
2005-May-10, 05:00 PM
No kidding. On the news I just heard that they fired 120 rounds, earlier I heard 90. Either way thats alot of shots fired.
Especially when you consider the suspect was unarmed. 8)

Celestial Mechanic
2005-May-10, 05:33 PM
My first thought when I saw the video was, "What do they think they are? New York City cops?"

Kizarvexis
2005-May-11, 01:02 AM
I knew those cops were going to shoot each other when I saw the video. The car moved forward directly between the cops on each side of the road and the they kept firing. On the news this morning they showed pictures of bullet holes in windows of houses on that street. Its amazing more people weren't hurt.

What really supprises me, is you have a whole lot of officers firing their weapons, and not hitting much of anything. I think a refresher course in marksmanship is in order.

About 5-8 years ago, police officers in Tampa were looking for four bank robbery suspects. The department had received a tip that 4 guys were going rob a bank the next day and when they found the car that night, a short gun battle ensued as the bad guys got away. Two police officers later found one of the suspects standing under a garage light on a house. The suspect had a Chinese AK rifle knock-off. Both sides opened up on each other, with one news report as the range at 15 feet, and both cops were hit. The cops had unloaded their 9mm Glocks with no hits. So less than 20 shots from the bad guy hit 2-3 times total and over 30 shots from the cops hit nothing. Both cops were saved from life threatening wounds. A few other incidents here in Tampa have not impressed me with police marksmanship. Granted, now that I've been out of the Army for 15 years, my marksmanship probably stinks, but if I was actively carring a weapon, I think I would keep up basic marksmanship just to make sure I didn't cause any collateral damage.

Kizarvexis

Maha Vailo
2005-May-11, 03:33 AM
Was I the only one who thought this thread would be about the first-person shooter?

- Maha "I don't play it, so how would I know?" Vailo

Evan
2005-May-11, 04:26 AM
The entire event is beyond belief. I was an expert marksman in the army and I taught cadets range safety and marksmanship for years. The sight of a mob of police officers blasting away at point blank range and not even accomplishing the goal of discharging their service weapon is mind boggling. The obvious fact that they were firing directly at clearly visible "friendlies" is even more astounding.

I think all involved in this incident deserve to be suspended and required to undergo a psychiatric evaluation for fitness for duty.

Dark Helmet
2005-May-11, 07:16 AM
I think these cops would be more at home on the Death Star than in LA.

Did the suspect have a lightsaber, or something?

Jpax2003
2005-May-11, 07:27 AM
I'm glad no one got hurt, but when I saw the footage on TV I was waiting for a deep booming voice declaring "You have lost the match."


FYI, that is a reference to Unreal Tournament.

Lianachan
2005-May-11, 09:27 AM
At work, we have what we call the Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaw! file, full of examples of American incompetence due to gung-ho-ism. I think this is a worthy addition.

Cylinder
2005-May-11, 10:55 AM
At work, we have what we call the Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaw! file, full of examples of American incompetence due to gung-ho-ism. I think this is a worthy addition.

Wow. I did not realize that Scots were the master race.

Lianachan
2005-May-11, 11:22 AM
Wow. I did not realize that Scots were the master race.
I didn't even realise that there is a master race. If you think that having the police shooting umpteen rounds backwards and forwards across the street is not a trifle gung-ho, then good luck to you.

Moose
2005-May-11, 11:39 AM
If you think that having the police shooting umpteen rounds backwards and forwards across the street is not a trifle gung-ho, then good luck to you.

Lianachan, I won't speak for anyone else, but it's not the characterization that this event was "gung-ho" which is causing objections. It's your apparent linking of the words "American" and "incompetance". This is, IMO, exactly as inappropriate as linking the words "Scottish" "drunk" and/or "cheap", as a rather pointed example.

The situation in question was indeed a tactical breakdown, but as I saw it, the breakdown occurred mainly due to adverse tactical conditions: the suspect stopping directly between the two groups of officers. Once one bullet flew, they all flew, because in the "fog of war", nobody knew exactly who was shooting at who.

I don't know how to correct for this.

Cylinder
2005-May-11, 11:42 AM
I didn't even realise that there is a master race. If you think that having the police shooting umpteen rounds backwards and forwards across the street is not a trifle gung-ho, then good luck to you.

No problem. I was just wondering about your American file.

Lianachan
2005-May-11, 11:58 AM
Lianachan, I won't speak for anyone else, but it's not the characterization that this event was "gung-ho" which is causing objections. It's your apparent linking of the words "American" and "incompetance".
It simply is a collection of American examples of situations where the gung-ho attitude has caused problems - particularly within law enforcement or the military. The fact that these situations pan out the way they do, means that the people are not doing their jobs properly - in other words, are incompetent during the incident. I never said Americans are incompetent.


The situation in question was indeed a tactical breakdown, but as I saw it, the breakdown occurred mainly due to adverse tactical conditions: the suspect stopping directly between the two groups of officers. Once one bullet flew, they all flew, because in the "fog of war", nobody knew exactly who was shooting at who.

I don't know how to correct for this.

More intensive/varied training? More rigorous selection of officers in the first place?

Captain Kidd
2005-May-11, 12:06 PM
Lianachan, I won't speak for anyone else, but it's not the characterization that this event was "gung-ho" which is causing objections. It's your apparent linking of the words "American" and "incompetance".
It simply is a collection of American examples of situations where the gung-ho attitude has caused problems - particularly within law enforcement or the military. The fact that these situations pan out the way they do, means that the people are not doing their jobs properly - in other words, are incompetent during the incident. I never said Americans are incompetent.
So why only Americans then?

As for what happened, there's a study (don't know by who so no source to cite) that due to the nature of a semi-automatic weapon, people tend to fire more rounds than they think, or intend to. One interesting part of the investigation I'll bet good odds on is that most of the officers will say that they only fired 1 or 2 shots and yet most, if not all of the bullets in their clip will be gone.

SAMU
2005-May-11, 12:19 PM
Note the following conflicting training instructions:

1) Beware of your suspect for sudden movements.

2) Keep your suspect off balance "so you can keep control of him."




Common sense: anyone is going to make sudden movements when thrown off balance.

There's a lot of stuff like this in police training.

Lianachan
2005-May-11, 12:36 PM
So why only Americans then?

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of such incidents - at least those that are reported by the media here - tend to involve US personnel.

Wally
2005-May-11, 03:55 PM
So why only Americans then?

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of such incidents - at least those that are reported by the media here - tend to involve US personnel.

yippie kiyay, Lianachan!!!

:roll:

Tell you what. Once Scotland has approx. 260 million people and cities with several million alone, we'll start keeping a file on you folks, ok? :)

Lianachan
2005-May-11, 04:04 PM
Tell you what. Once Scotland has approx. 260 million people and cities with several million alone, we'll start keeping a file on you folks, ok? :)

It's not related to scale, or the populace in general. But by all means, you do what you like.

sarongsong
2005-May-11, 04:27 PM
...The situation in question was indeed a tactical breakdown...Bill Handel's morning L.A. radio (KFI) show mentions 3 points from a preliminary report:
1 - the police arrived in separate vehicles with no common plan,
2 - contagious firing syndrome, possibly when
3 - one officer stumbled and others may have assumed he'd been shot.
There is also concern about the final volley of (20 to 25) shots that occurred after the vehicle was no longer in motion.

Captain Kidd
2005-May-11, 04:30 PM
There is also concern about the final (20 to 25) volley of shots that occurred after the vehicle was no longer in motion.
That might be attributed to them thinking he was going for a weapon. Especially if one of the wounds he recieved made him slump, it could have looked like he was leaning over to get something off the floor or out of the glove compartment.

Evan
2005-May-11, 05:08 PM
Their training must be sadly lacking. I would have supposed that they would receive training similar to what I had in Basic. Crawling under machine gun fire, night assault through a course with real explosions going off nearby, sometimes a flash-bang only a few feet away, taking a hill with your partner giving real covering fire from behind you and others to either side. It's all to prevent exactly the sort of thing that happened in this incident. Even when the bullets are flying if you don't think you may not live.

Stregone
2005-May-11, 05:14 PM
LA cops are some of the most out numbered in the country. New York City has way more cops per person, and LA's population is spread over a larger area. I forget the exact numbers but its pretty sad.

sarongsong
2005-Jun-11, 05:46 AM
Jun 9, 2005 (http://kcal9.com/topstories/topstoriesla_story_160134937.html)
"The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department will discipline 13 deputies for firing about 120 shots at an unarmed driver here last month...One deputy will be suspended for 15 days, others will be off duty for lesser periods and some will receive written reprimands...The announcement drew a mixed reaction..."

Archer17
2005-Jun-11, 05:51 AM
Jun 9, 2005 (http://kcal9.com/topstories/topstoriesla_story_160134937.html)
"The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department will discipline 13 deputies for firing about 120 shots at an unarmed driver here last month...One deputy will be suspended for 15 days, others will be off duty for lesser periods and some will receive written reprimands...The announcement drew a mixed reaction..."Have anything to say yourself "link-head?" :wink:

sarongsong
2005-Jun-11, 06:10 AM
"Incoming!"

Archer17
2005-Jun-11, 06:31 AM
"Incoming!"heh .. I guess that's a "start." Try speaking for yourself once in a while.

Candy
2005-Jun-11, 02:55 PM
"Incoming!"heh .. I guess that's a "start." Try speaking for yourself once in a while.
Oh, behave! (http://161.58.5.90/austin/behave2.wav) 8)

tofu
2005-Jun-11, 11:56 PM
At work, we have what we call the Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaw! file, full of examples of American incompetence due to gung-ho-ism. I think this is a worthy addition.

This from a guy who's countrymen will sit in a stadium for hours and hours watching a sporting event where no one scores any points and then when the game ends in a tie (because no one scored any points) they will rush onto the field in a blind rage, trampling anyone who gets in the way.

Your "Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaw!file" is the ethnocentric equivalent a bunch of five year olds writing, "Johny is a big booboo head" on a bathroom wall. Maybe you should grow up.

frogesque
2005-Jun-12, 12:44 AM
It's not only Americans that can get caught up in the heat of the moment.

Court quashes table leg shooting verdict (http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5192155-103690,00.html)

Yes, we do have armed police officers over here if the situation warrants it. Yes, they do make mistakes. We also (very rarely, fortunately) have incidents like the Dunblane massacre (http://www.guardiancentury.co.uk/1990-1999/Story/0,6051,112749,00.html) by a man with a history that should have been far more closely watched.

Police the world over are damned if they do and damned if they don't sometimes. Expert tuition and frequent refreshers can only go so far when it's a judgment call. Once the lead starts flying and the adrenalin rushes it must take an extemely cool head to avoid pooping off at any sound of gunshots. It's easy to ridicule these men who will doubtless have to answer for their actions and, if they are to remain active, undergo further training. Fortunately no innocent bystanders were injured or officers killed by 'friendly fire'.

It's not good, it's not nice, but, to quote a military gentleman, "Stuff happens".

sarongsong
2005-Jun-12, 01:45 AM
At work, we have what we call the Yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaw! file, full of examples of American incompetence due to gung-ho-ism. I think this is a worthy addition.
And here in the States we have Glasgow's gift to late night TV, Craig Ferguson (http://www.cbs.com/latenight/latelate/bio/) who masterfully slices and dices America's (among others) follies and mis-steps in his nightly opening monologues. Last night he skewered cheerleaders ("What happened to them?! They used to be rosy-cheeked wholesome corn-fed girls-next-door. Now they come out sliding down a brass pole!") and youths' current dance-style (standing bent-over with his hands on his knees, rear extended and moving about, exclaiming, "That's not dancing!---that's a dog with worms!"). Later, he answered a female viewer's letter inquiring whether all the men in Scotland were cute. He burst out laughing, "Did you see 'Braveheart', lady? Did you notice the cute one, that one not from Scotland---that Mel Gibson? Well, Scotsmen look like the other ones in that movie."