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Sam5
2005-May-20, 07:43 PM
My VCR shut down last week, so I went out to get a new one, and I noticed that there are more DVD recorders available than VCRs, so I guess the switch-over to the new format is going on now.

I got a “DVD Tutorial” off the internet, and it says that all DVD-R-RW disks are playable on all home DVD players (like movie players). Is this correct?

The tutorial said that DVD+R+RW is a newer format, but disks recorded on this might not be playable on all home DVD players. Is that correct?

And what about “foreign” formats? Can I record a DVD-R-RW on a US DVD machine and send it to someone in England so he can play it on his home DVD movie player?

Moose
2005-May-20, 08:19 PM
I got a “DVD Tutorial” off the internet, and it says that all DVD-R-RW disks are playable on all home DVD players (like movie players). Is this correct?

Not quite. Most DVD-Rs should be playable on most home DVD players. Older ones (like my Sony) may not handle DVD-RWs.

Some recent players will read DVD+R and DVD+RWs. (Generally, a player that will read one will read both.)

Sam5
2005-May-20, 08:33 PM
Some recent players will read DVD+R and DVD+RWs. (Generally, a player that will read one will read both.)


Ok, thanks for the info. So it looks like DVD-R is the basic home movie format.

Somewhere in my garage I’ve got an old Beta vcr and some Beta tapes. I’ve got to dig them out and update them to DVD. I hope my Beta machine still works.

SeanF
2005-May-20, 08:36 PM
My VCR shut down last week, so I went out to get a new one, and I noticed that there are more DVD recorders available than VCRs, so I guess the switch-over to the new format is going on now.

I got a “DVD Tutorial” off the internet, and it says that all DVD-R-RW disks are playable on all home DVD players (like movie players). Is this correct?
No. Most, yes. All, no. The more recently the player was manufactured, the better the odds it'll play them. :)


The tutorial said that DVD+R+RW is a newer format, but disks recorded on this might not be playable on all home DVD players. Is that correct?
The plus format is "newer," but it's been around long enough that it wouldn't really be fair to call it "new" anymore. The minus format probably plays on more older machines than the plus format does, but not that many.

In both minus and plus formats, the R discs are more likely to be player-compatible than the RWs.


And what about “foreign” formats? Can I record a DVD-R-RW on a US DVD machine and send it to someone in England so he can play it on his home DVD movie player?
Probably not. English TVs are still PAL while US TVs are NTSC, so that would be a problem. It's doubtful that a US-purchased recorder would be able to record in PAL.

With a computer-based DVD drive, though, it would probably be possible to take an NTSC recording, convert it to PAL, and re-record it on a new disc.

Most of my experience has been with the plus format, although my current PC drive supports both. It's my understanding that the minus format requires a "finalization" process to make it fully DVD-compliant which the plus format does not.

Also, the plus format was the first to hit the market (just recently) with dual-layer discs. You need a dual-layer specific recorder to write to them, and the compatibility of them is less than the single-layer blanks.

Van Rijn
2005-May-20, 08:44 PM
I have a relatively old, but high-end Pioneer DVD changer that has no problem reading DVD+R single and double layer disks. And I prefer DVD+R. Anyway, test your DVD player. Do not assume what it will or won't play.

A google search will turn up more than you want to know on the subject ...

[Edited]

Sam5
2005-May-20, 08:46 PM
Also, the plus format was the first to hit the market (just recently) with dual-layer discs.

Thanks for the info. Oh, moan, groan. I forgot about dual-layer. All these format changes are irritating. I’m already format-stressed.

I’ve got some old 8mm films I took in the 1950s. 16mm film I took in the ‘60s and ‘70s. 35mm color movie film I took in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Also Beta tapes, VHS tapes, ¾” video tapes (Sony U-matic from the ‘80s), I’ve also got full-track audio from the ‘50s-‘70s, half-track audio from the ’50s-‘70s, cassette and small cassette audio. Not to mention my 8 x 10 and 5 x 7 glass plates, my Daguerreotypes, my 4 x 5s from college, my 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ and 35mm stills, and my Minox negs.

I’ve got some rare old films and audio interviews too. I need to dub this stuff to some modern format (DVD I guess) and try to sell copies or just send them to my friends.

Sam5
2005-May-20, 08:48 PM
I have a relatively old, but high-end Pioneer DVD changer that has no problem reading DVD+R single and double layer disks. And I prefer DVD+R. Anyway, test your DVD player. Do not assume what it will or won't play.

A google search will turn up more than you want to know on the subject ...

[Edited]


Thanks for the info. I’ve got to get my VHS tapes dubbed over to DVD before VHS goes out entirely.

SeanF
2005-May-20, 08:59 PM
Also, the plus format was the first to hit the market (just recently) with dual-layer discs.

Thanks for the info. Oh, moan, groan. I forgot about dual-layer. All these format changes are irritating. I’m already format-stressed.

I’ve got some old 8mm films I took in the 1950s. 16mm film I took in the ‘60s and ‘70s. 35mm color movie film I took in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Also Beta tapes, VHS tapes, ¾” video tapes (Sony U-matic from the ‘80s), I’ve also got full-track audio from the ‘50s-‘70s, half-track audio from the ’50s-‘70s, cassette and small cassette audio. Not to mention my 8 x 10 and 5 x 7 glass plates, my Daguerreotypes, my 4 x 5s from college, my 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ and 35mm stills, and my Minox negs.

I’ve got some rare old films and audio interviews too. I need to dub this stuff to some modern format (DVD I guess) and try to sell copies or just send them to my friends.
Well, the post-DVD formats are already coming - bluray, etc. - but it's still advantageous to convert that old stuff to a digital format now.

While DVDs are not literally "permanent," they are much more stable than film or tape. Plus, future transfers from DVD to a new media will be digital-perfect copies.

Van Rijn
2005-May-20, 10:30 PM
Sam, do you have a fairly recent model computer? For creating DVDs, a computer is far more flexible, and there are a number of video cleanup and transfer utilities available.

I use a Plextor DVD writer in my PC. Plextor has a good reputation and this one handles pretty much everything currently available. I use Verbatim DVD+R disks primarily and have had good luck with them. At this time, double layer disks are far more expensive than single layer. I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stick with single layer. For VHS, the resolution is so low there isn't really much point to a high bit rate recording anyway.

Sam5
2005-May-21, 12:52 AM
Sam, do you have a fairly recent model computer? For creating DVDs, a computer is far more flexible, and there are a number of video cleanup and transfer utilities available.

I use a Plextor DVD writer in my PC. Plextor has a good reputation and this one handles pretty much everything currently available. I use Verbatim DVD+R disks primarily and have had good luck with them. At this time, double layer disks are far more expensive than single layer. I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stick with single layer. For VHS, the resolution is so low there isn't really much point to a high bit rate recording anyway.


Yes, I have a new computer, but I don’t know if it is set up to show videos on the monitor or not. I saw some internal and external DVD drives at a store last week, but it looked like the program came with 5 program disks, and I think it was too complicated for me to bother with at this time. How easy is your system to work with?

If my computer is not set up to show videos now, can I convert it with an external video media gadget and the program that comes with them?

AndrewGPaul
2005-May-21, 12:58 AM
And what about “foreign” formats? Can I record a DVD-R-RW on a US DVD machine and send it to someone in England so he can play it on his home DVD movie player?
Probably not. English TVs are still PAL while US TVs are NTSC, so that would be a problem. It's doubtful that a US-purchased recorder would be able to record in PAL.

Does that matter? As I understood it, NTSC and PAL are ways of encoding the colour signal onto the carrier for broadcast. Since the signal through the cable from the DVD player to the TV isn't modulated, surely this sin't a problem?

In any case, my multi-region-modified DVD player plays US discs fine, so it looks like it can play NTSC-format discs no problem. It was a £30 cheapo machine, so if ti does, they all will. Heck, VCRs here have played NTSC tapes for years.

Maksutov
2005-May-21, 01:23 AM
Sam, do you have a fairly recent model computer? For creating DVDs, a computer is far more flexible, and there are a number of video cleanup and transfer utilities available.

I use a Plextor DVD writer in my PC. Plextor has a good reputation and this one handles pretty much everything currently available. I use Verbatim DVD+R disks primarily and have had good luck with them. At this time, double layer disks are far more expensive than single layer. I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stick with single layer. For VHS, the resolution is so low there isn't really much point to a high bit rate recording anyway.


Yes, I have a new computer, but I don’t know if it is set up to show videos on the monitor or not. I saw some internal and external DVD drives at a store last week, but it looked like the program came with 5 program disks, and I think it was too complicated for me to bother with at this time. How easy is your system to work with?

If my computer is not set up to show videos now, can I convert it with an external video media gadget and the program that comes with them?
DVD players for computers are a snap to install. The external ones using USB 2.0 are the easiest of course. Not sure why that one had five install disks, unless they were floppies.

It took me about 20 minutes to install my NEC internal DVD drive. Got it from Newegg for $52.00 and free shipping/no tax. It handles all media (DVD+, -, double layer, CD, mini, etc.) and handles all formats (DVD, SVCD, VCD, etc.). Plus the speed with which it writes is remarkable, usually about 5000 Kbps. Completely reliable performance for about a year now.

Re PAL/NTSC, most players now can be setup for either one. Both my ilo PVR and Philips player handle both formats no problem just by using a quickly accessed menu with the remote. Plus both have been flashed to become region-free.

DVD is the way to go. Remember also that as with DVD/CD, blueray, etc., will be backward compatible. As with all new technology I'll wait a few years there until the format has been finalized, and the R&D costs have been paid for by the first customers. 8)

Sam5
2005-May-21, 01:37 AM
DVD players for computers are a snap to install. The external ones using USB 2.0 are the easiest of course. Not sure why that one had five install disks, unless they were floppies.

It took me about 20 minutes to install my NEC internal DVD drive. Got it from Newegg for $52.00 and free shipping/no tax. It handles all media (DVD+, -, double layer, CD, mini, etc.) and handles all formats (DVD, SVCD, VCD, etc.). Plus the speed with which it writes is remarkable, usually about 5000 Kbps. Completely reliable performance for about a year now.


I didn’t get a video card or program installed when I ordered this computer, so I don’t know if it will play or record DVD videos if I just add a DVD external drive.

Of the five disks that came with the one I saw, one was probably the actually program and the others were probably “free” stuff with a lot of advertising on them.

================

added:

You know the Ole Miss story we discussed earlier? I’ve got a rare half-hour CBS Eyewitness to History show about it on 16 mm film that aired late in 1962. I think somewhere in a box I’ve got a video copy of it. This program hasn’t been seen on TV in 43 years.

Kesh
2005-May-21, 02:27 AM
I'd recommend taking the original 16mm film to a film shop that can convert it to a usable digital format for you (either mini DV or direct to a DVD). That way, not only will you get the best possible copy, they may potentially be able to restore any damage the film suffered due to age.

SeanF
2005-May-21, 04:04 AM
And what about “foreign” formats? Can I record a DVD-R-RW on a US DVD machine and send it to someone in England so he can play it on his home DVD movie player?
Probably not. English TVs are still PAL while US TVs are NTSC, so that would be a problem. It's doubtful that a US-purchased recorder would be able to record in PAL.

Does that matter? As I understood it, NTSC and PAL are ways of encoding the colour signal onto the carrier for broadcast. Since the signal through the cable from the DVD player to the TV isn't modulated, surely this sin't a problem?
There's more to it than that. Frame rate and scan rate are different in PAL than NTSC.


In any case, my multi-region-modified DVD player plays US discs fine, so it looks like it can play NTSC-format discs no problem. It was a £30 cheapo machine, so if ti does, they all will. Heck, VCRs here have played NTSC tapes for years.
Yeah, again, that's going to depend on the equipment. Some are probably capable of playing both NTSC and PAL, some not.

My question is, though, is your television also NTSC/PAL compatible, or does the player actually convert the NTSC to PAL before outputting? :o

AndrewGPaul
2005-May-21, 10:02 AM
Actually, I'm not sure.


This VCR allows playback of NTSC recorded tapes on a normal PAL TV. On some TVs, however, the playback picture may roll up or down...The height of the picture may not fill the complete screen

The DVD player lists outputs as CVBS, (PAL/NTSC), RGB.

Van Rijn
2005-May-21, 10:06 AM
I didn’t get a video card or program installed when I ordered this computer, so I don’t know if it will play or record DVD videos if I just add a DVD external drive.

Of the five disks that came with the one I saw, one was probably the actually program and the others were probably “free” stuff with a lot of advertising on them.



If you aren't technically inclined, I'd stay away from the computer option. The PC would have to have a video card if you are using it, but it may not have the hardware to input/digitize analog video. You'd have to read the specs on your video card. If it doesn't have video input you would need an additional card or external converter. There are many software choices, which is nice, but also can add to the complexity of the process.

For me, adding an internal DVD recorder to a Windows XP box was probably one of the easiest upgrades I've done, but then again, I always custom build my PCs, so YMMV.

I've never used one, but it does sound like a video transfer service might be your best option.

Van Rijn
2005-May-21, 10:20 AM
Actually, I'm not sure.


This VCR allows playback of NTSC recorded tapes on a normal PAL TV. On some TVs, however, the playback picture may roll up or down...The height of the picture may not fill the complete screen

The DVD player lists outputs as CVBS, (PAL/NTSC), RGB.

I tried doing a quick google search, but I didn't see a firm answer either. My impression is that most "PAL" DVD players can handle non-region coded NTSC DVDs. There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs, but DVDs are recorded at different resolutions depending on the intended target. It looks like dedicated DVD recorders don't region code the disks, so that shouldn't be an issue. But are there requirements for the TV, or something I'm not aware of? I think I'd just go back to what I said before: Don't assume, test the target system with whatever type of disks/recording format/etc. you plan to use.

worzel
2005-May-21, 10:25 AM
I didn’t get a video card or program installed when I ordered this computer, so I don’t know if it will play or record DVD videos if I just add a DVD external drive.
Getting your computer to play DVDs should be no problem at all, you've got a reasonably new computer right? With a nice graphical display? It probably already plays movies, have you got Windows Media Player installed? The DVD drive just allows you to read the data of the dvd and usually comes with a bit of software that understands this format so you can play them.

I would have thought the tricky bit is going to be converting all those old formats you've got into a digital format. I've never done anything like that but I would imagine you need some sort of device that plays them by converting them to a video signal that works with your tv, a video capture card for your pc that digitizes the signal, and some video editing software.

Or were you just looking to record tv onto dvd instead of vhs? Do you have digital or analogue tv? Either way, you can always record the analogue signal going to your tv with a dedicated dvd recorder just like you could with VHS, or didgitise it on your pc with a video capure card. But if you're getting digital tv then you'd get much better quality if it wasn't converted to analogue and then redigitised - PVRs record the digital stream (maybe with some conversion) and some can even share the video files with your computer.

worzel
2005-May-21, 10:43 AM
There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs
They are encoded at different frame rates - but the blank dvds are the same for each, if that's what you meant.

It looks like dedicated DVD recorders don't region code the disks, so that shouldn't be an issue.
The region code on the disk is only related to the encoding (i.e. PAL or NTSC) in that the choice is based on the region it is encoded for. Being able to play dvds with different region codes doesn't necessarily mean you can play your PAL dvds on an NTSC tv.

But are there requirements for the TV, or something I'm not aware of?
The tv needs to be able to handle the frame rate of the format. Some old tvs in England can't handle 60Hz (NTSC). Some modern ones can but need to be told what format to expect, and some automatically detect the format just like a computer monitor does.

Sam5
2005-May-21, 01:38 PM
I didn’t get a video card or program installed when I ordered this computer, so I don’t know if it will play or record DVD videos if I just add a DVD external drive.
Getting your computer to play DVDs should be no problem at all, you've got a reasonably new computer right? With a nice graphical display? It probably already plays movies, have you got Windows Media Player installed? The DVD drive just allows you to read the data of the dvd and usually comes with a bit of software that understands this format so you can play them.

The standard (non-computer) connectors from any kind of video equipment to any other kind are simple “RCA” plugs, one for video and two for stereo sound. So the different kinds of TV-video type machines (digital or not) can be connected by simple cables and dubs from one system to another can be easily made.

I think I will get a separate DVD device, maybe one with a built-in VHS recorder/player. It seems to me to be a lot easier to have a stand-alone unit, since I will not be doing any editing, just straight dubs.

With the help I’ve received on this thread, it seems to me that a DVD-R recorder would be the most common disk that with play on most new and old DVD movie players, and if I get a recording unit with that and the ability to record the other formats, such as DVD-RW, DVD+R+RW, then I’ll be set for now and a few years into the future.

JMV
2005-May-21, 02:17 PM
There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs
They are encoded at different frame rates
And the color sub-carrier frequency is different, 4.43 MHz for PAL and 3.58 MHz for NTSC. With RF video connector my TV displayed the picture from NTSC discs in monochrome, because it couldn't handle the color signal. I got around the problem by buying a new RGB capable SCART/Euro-AV connector.

Jpax2003
2005-May-22, 02:24 AM
Here is a good site to help you make DVD, VCD, SVCD and various formats related to those. I have found this site very helpful in the past.

www.videohelp.com

Personally, I am still waiting for an HD-DVD standard so that I can copy HDTV from my DVR and record it for later re-play without filling the harddrive.

Van Rijn
2005-May-22, 03:25 AM
There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs
They are encoded at different frame rates - but the blank dvds are the same for each, if that's what you meant.


PAL and NTSC are analog video signal formats. On disk, the data is stored in files using MPEG-2 compression. The video can be at different resolutions and frame rates which are normally optimized to either PAL or NTSC standards. A software DVD player like PowerDVD can play disks regardless of whether the disk was intended for an NTSC or PAL target, it is just a matter of resizing the playback window and playback rates. Of course, depending on model, a dedicated DVD player can generate a PAL or NTSC signal for output, but inside it is all digital.





It looks like dedicated DVD recorders don't region code the disks, so that shouldn't be an issue.
The region code on the disk is only related to the encoding (i.e. PAL or NTSC) in that the choice is based on the region it is encoded for. Being able to play dvds with different region codes doesn't necessarily mean you can play your PAL dvds on an NTSC tv.

Right, region codes are a separate issue, and have nothing to do with the intended target video format. My point was that dedicated DVD recorders DO NOT place a region code on a disk, so that isn't a problem for region specific players.

worzel
2005-May-22, 08:24 AM
There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs
They are encoded at different frame rates
And the color sub-carrier frequency is different, 4.43 MHz for PAL and 3.58 MHz for NTSC. With RF video connector my TV displayed the picture from NTSC discs in monochrome, because it couldn't handle the color signal. I got around the problem by buying a new RGB capable SCART/Euro-AV connector.
Yeah I forgot about that. I just switched my PCs TV output to NTSC and it worked, but it was very red!




There really aren't PAL or NTSC DVDs
They are encoded at different frame rates - but the blank dvds are the same for each, if that's what you meant.


PAL and NTSC are analog video signal formats. On disk, the data is stored in files using MPEG-2 compression. The video can be at different resolutions and frame rates which are normally optimized to either PAL or NTSC standards. A software DVD player like PowerDVD can play disks regardless of whether the disk was intended for an NTSC or PAL target, it is just a matter of resizing the playback window and playback rates. Of course, depending on model, a dedicated DVD player can generate a PAL or NTSC signal for output, but inside it is all digital.

Yeah, that's all true. I was only pointing out that the prerecorded DVDs you buy are either PAL or NTSC (usually): i.e. there really are PAL and NTSC DVDs.

Apparently, most dedicated NTSC DVD players can't play PAL discs, but not vice versa, so I've heard.

darkhunter
2005-May-22, 08:43 AM
Yeah I forgot about that. I just switched my PCs TV output to NTSC and it worked, but it was very red!


There's a couple of different versions of NTSC, as well as PAL, + SECAM and the different audio formats...and th vidoe and audio options can be used in various combinaions. (can't remember all of them and can't run through the options on my Multi system TV sa the moment as thekids are watching cartoons at the moment)

mickal555
2005-May-22, 09:12 AM
What about blue ray?

Is that a new format- it's been smoldering for a couple of years now :-k

Joe The Dude
2005-May-22, 11:13 AM
Blu-Ray is indeed a new format, but from what I've been able to google about it in the past few days, recordable disks for it are about $100.00 (USA).

(EDIT: I just found one for about $50.00)

Of course, one can get a regular ol Single-Layer DVD-R *Taiyo Yuden (White Inkjet *Hub Printable) for about 60 cents each.

They sell them in packs of 100 at:
http://www.rima.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=R&Product_Code= 1760-100&Category_Code=DMRTY

I use an Epson Stylus Photo R200 inkjet printer to print text, pictures and what not on the disk, as an alternative to using stick-on labels (as they are known to cause problems).

If you aren't interested in the printer, you can always just use a "Fine Point" Sharpie on the "Silver Thermal" Disks (they are a bit cheaper) or even the inkjet printable ones (for an easier to read surface).

*Taiyo Yuden DVD-R Media is the prefered media of most of the people (myself included) who post at the http://www.videohelp.com forums.
Be sure and ask about (or look up) it's compatibility with whatever DVD Recorder you are going to get, be it for your PC or a stand-alone unit over at http://www.videohelp.com before you invest in a ton of disks. 8)

*Hub Printable
It means that the printable surface extends almost all the way to the center hole.
(Oddly enough, I know of no printable DVD or CD media that has a printable surface that extends all the way to the center).

mickal555
2005-May-22, 11:33 AM
hmmm 50gb

That's more than my HD

I'd pay $50 for a rewriteably to use as my C drive

Sam5
2005-May-29, 03:31 PM
Ok, I just bought a Panasonic VHS-DVD DMR-ES30V, and it is great. I can dub all my old videos over to DVD. It records in the DVD-RAM, –R, -RW, and +R modes. The +R disks are cheap and after I finish a recording, I can “finalize” it and that turns it into a DVD-R video play disk, so it can play on any DVD player.

Thanks for all the advice.