PDA

View Full Version : Most notable female leaders, or women in history ?



Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-May-21, 12:16 PM
Some women have been good leaders in history, others own their own TV station, some have done good work in science, there are famous wives of Presidents and others have lead battles and fought wars.

Who are the most notable today and most over-rated in history ? Here's what I say


- Joan of Arc led French troops to fight the English at Orleans during the Hundred Years’ War. But she was condemned as a heretic & burnt to death at the stake in Rouen
- Valentina Tereshkova first woman to make a space flight, made 48 orbits of the Earth in Vostok6
- Oprah Winfrey, I could never watch her babblings talk shows as I think talk shows are rubbish but one must admire her achievements in broadcasting and film, one of the richest women on the planet.
- Helen Keller very smart woman who overcame many problems
-Boudicca gave the Romans a massive war in England and came within a whisker of defeating the Romans.
- Mae Jemison the first African American Woman in space
- Fu Hao Asian warrior woman who led military expeditions.
Madonna/TinaTurner American film stars and wealthy pop Singers have mad millions of dollars and are know world wide.
- Soong sisters Chinese song about the Soong sisters says: "One loved money, one loved power and one loved China." Soong Ai-Ling, the eldest, married China's finance minister H. H. Kung, a wealthy descendent of Confucius. Soong Mayling also known to much of the world as Madame Chiang Kai-shek. Soong Ching-Ling, the middle sister, married Sun Yat Sen, leader of the Nationalist revolution that overthrew China's last Emperor
- Cleopatra Egyptian Queen
- Hillary Clinton / Condoleeza Rice / Madeleine Albright important political leaders in the USA
- Trung Trac and Trung Nhi vietnam sisters who lead the Vietnamese revolt against China
- JK Rowling one of the wealthiest people on Earth after being the author of all those Harry Potter books
Eileen Collins first female to fly shuttle, she piloted the Discovery.
- Indira Ghandi Prime minister of India but was killed by two assassin extremists acting in retaliation for the storming of the Sikh holy shrine



I think the most over rated is Cleopatra, because she didn't do enough to protect Egypt

Joan of Arc must be admired for showing such leadership at a young age

Argos
2005-May-21, 12:42 PM
Margareth Thatcher was the most powerful woman of all times.

ocasey3
2005-May-21, 01:01 PM
Interesting topic, and as it so happens I have a car that is covered with the names of notable and important women. (former owner of the car painted it for a history project in college)
I could post names for pages but here are a few more names I'd like to add to your list:

Harriet Tubman
Rosa Parks
Sally Ride
Judith Resnick
Ella Fitzgerald
Josephine Baker
Elizabeth I
Nichelle Nicols
Margaret Mead
Dian Fossey
Mary Leakey
Martina Navratalova
Ellen DeGeneres
Barbara Walters
Christiana Amanpour
Susan Casey Wright- OK, this is my mother, but she did a fantastic job with me and my siblings considering the cards she has been dealt


Whew, that's enough for now. Each of these women have a special meaning for me but I know they have inspired many other women.

Most over rated is Anne Rice, enough already! :D

jrkeller
2005-May-21, 01:30 PM
Lillian Gilbreth (http://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/gilbreth.html) of the Cheaper by the Dozen fame. The Steve Martin/Bonnie Hunt film by the same name, is a travesty when compared to her accomplishments.

frogesque
2005-May-21, 02:14 PM
Marie Sklodowska Curie (http://www.lucidcafe.com/lucidcafe/library/95nov/curie.html)
Emmeline Pankhurst (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WpankhurstE.htm)
Amy Johnson (http://www.ninety-nines.org/johnson.html)
Lillian Gish (http://www.cmgww.com/stars/gish/)
Catherine the Great (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/tsarskoe/historyfive.html)

I am not normally negative but for this lady (http://www.victoriabeckham.com/contents.html)I'll make an exception 8)

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-21, 02:34 PM
Amy Johnson (http://www.ninety-nines.org/johnson.html)
But nobody listed Amelia Earhardt?

And Nichelle Nicols, the only actress listed?? Not counting Josephine Baker, Oprah Winfrey, Ellen Degeneres, etc

Melusine
2005-May-21, 03:38 PM
Manchurian Taikonaut wrote:
- Helen Keller very smart woman who overcame many problems
Yeah, I'll say! She was a strong woman. She graduated from Harvard's female equivalent, Radcliffe, and championed rights for the poor and disenfranchised her whole adult life. She felt blindness was a result of poverty; she was a socialist, supported the communists, and took a lot of heat for it. She was also a suffragist. The very thing she overcame, deafness, blindness, muteness, she was later excoriated for. She was not a weak woman at all. Despite whether you agree with her or not, you have to admit she had chutzpah.


A Thousand Pardons wrote:
But nobody listed Amelia Earhardt?
Excellent choice. When I was little, oh about 7, I went to the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum and bought this book about her in the store there; I fell in love with her spirit. Sometimes I like to think she's still flying around out there, but of course, metaphorically-speaking.

I like Elizabeth I, too. And people like Shirley Chisolm who just had so much nerve (first black woman elected to Congress).

Candy
2005-May-21, 05:01 PM
Lillian Gilbreth (http://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/gilbreth.html) of the Cheaper by the Dozen fame. The Steve Martin/Bonnie Hunt film by the same name, is a travesty when compared to her accomplishments.

Lillian Gilbreth is one of my favorite female idols. I'm so glad you mentioned her. She had a great presence at Purdue University in her golden years. BTW, I love "Therblig"! =D>

aurora
2005-May-21, 06:28 PM
People always give way too much credit to political figures, and not nearly enough to those who make major scientific discoveries.

Two women of note:

Marie Curie

Jane Goodall

Both of which, IMHO, changed our world and our view of ourselves forever.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-May-21, 06:34 PM
Marie Curie

Looks like you ToSeeked me there!

Makgraf
2005-May-21, 07:04 PM
Politically both Golda Meir and Alexandra Kollantai were certainly notable.

But most importantly: Julia Child.

Melusine
2005-May-21, 07:04 PM
People always give way too much credit to political figures, and not nearly enough to those who make major scientific discoveries.

Two women of note:

Marie Curie

Jane Goodall

Both of which, IMHO, changed our world and our view of ourselves forever.
That's because women are sorely underrepresented in science--too many years of repression, so yes! those two are definitely tops, thanks. Along with the Jane Goodall camp, I'll add Diane Fossey for her life's devotion to mountain gorillas (she gave up everything for them) and battled poachers. Margaret Mead, noted anthropologist, and I'll add Dorothea Lange, whose photography during the Depression is an indelible part of our national archives.

Parrothead
2005-May-21, 07:34 PM
Queen Victoria, Queen Isabella

Musashi
2005-May-21, 07:35 PM
Marie Antoinette? ;)

Ursala K LeGuin
Andre Norton
Lynn Abbey
Elizabeth Moon

Candy
2005-May-21, 07:49 PM
Amy Johnson (http://www.ninety-nines.org/johnson.html)
But nobody listed Amelia Earhardt?

And Nichelle Nicols, the only actress listed?? Not counting Josephine Baker, Oprah Winfrey, Ellen Degeneres, etc
Funny, everything I learned my first year of college. Earhardt Hall!

I know ATP will be all over me with this one, Mileva Einstein. :P

Gillianren
2005-May-21, 08:12 PM
Rosalind Franklin, upon whose work the discovery of the structure of DNA was based.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks the remake of Cheaper By the Dozen was shameful. in fact, I'd recommend reading the book, wherein the kids learn, among other things, astronomy. Lillian Gilbreth invented the pedal-top trash can; did you know?

back in '99, when everyone was doing their "most important such-and-such" lists, A&E did the 100 most influential people of the millenium, and I was sorely disappointed that half a dozen people sponsored or, at least, aided in their careers by Elizabeth I (salve regina) rated higher on the list than she. (Sir Frances Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, Shakespeare, et al.)

Melusine
2005-May-21, 08:36 PM
Naomi James was the first woman to single-handedly sail around the world in 1977 and broke Sir Francis Chichester's speed record. She capsized in the Roaring 40's near Cape Horn, but she made it, the first woman to do that all alone around the Cape. She had her cat with her, too, but he wasn't much help. Just want to put her up there with the adventurers.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-21, 10:19 PM
I know ATP will be all over me with this one, Mileva Einstein. :P
And with good reason!

Rosalind Franklin, upon whose work the discovery of the structure of DNA was based.
Hers, and a few others.


I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks the remake of Cheaper By the Dozen was shameful.
They had to make it a Baker's dozen, too

All those names, but you all forget Clara Barton too. No Mary either (OK, Leakey, but you know what I mean)

frogesque
2005-May-21, 10:30 PM
Who could also forget Cleopatra?

Too many links and versions of her life to give it full justice.

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-21, 10:44 PM
Why single out the fist African American female astronaut for a special mention, without mentioning the fist American woman in space, Sally Ride?

Does she merit a special (but patronising, in my opinion,) comment because she's black?

Helen Sharman is one not mentioned as far as I can see..the first British woman in space.

And 'chutzpah' is a bit of a silly word, isn't it?

Most women are over-rated in my opinion, though not those on the BaBB (crawl.)

frogesque
2005-May-21, 10:49 PM
Chutzpah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah)

Edit: fixed Wikipedia link

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-21, 11:17 PM
Who could also forget Cleopatra?

Too many links and versions of her life to give it full justice.
ToSeeked (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=473992#473992), in the OP

Isabella? O yeah, said that

frogesque
2005-May-21, 11:42 PM
ATP: :oops: missed that!

Kesh
2005-May-22, 12:00 AM
Props to Catherine the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_the_great).

Melusine
2005-May-22, 01:57 AM
Richard of Chelmsford:
And 'chutzpah' is a bit of a silly word, isn't it?
No, chutzpah is not a silly word. I learned it from my Jewish friends ions ago and I think it says more than just guts, or certain body parts, or just any plain 'ol adjective.

Main Entry: chutz·pah Pronunciation Guide
Variant(s): also chutz·pa or hutz·pah or hutz·pa \ktsp, h-, -()spä\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Yiddish khutspe, from Late Hebrew husph
: supreme self-confidence : NERVE : GALL


Most women are over-rated in my opinion, though not those on the BaBB (crawl.)
You're kidding, right? I don't think the women being mentioned here are over-rated! And I couldn't even begin to list the women who sat in the shadows behind some famous men...some almost downright mad men, no less.

Elizabeth Stanton and Margaret Fuller.

Eta C
2005-May-22, 02:56 AM
On the political side, Theodora Empress of the Eastern Roman Empire (commonly, but anachronistically, known as the Byzantine Empire). She was the wife of the Emperor Justinian I. He is known for re-establishing Imperial authority over most of the original Roman Empire. However, Theodora was much more than just his wife. She was very much a co-ruler with him.

On the scientific side, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Emmy Noether. Although she was a brilliant mathemetician, the European academic politics of the early 20th century kept her from any permanent academic position. Her main contribution, known (appropriately enough) as Noether's Theorem, states that any symmetry in a physical theory will equate to a conservation law. This has proven to be a vital part of developing the current Standard Model of particle physics.

Gullible Jones
2005-May-22, 03:07 AM
I'll second Emmy Noether.

Also, Commodore Grace Murray Hopper...

aurora
2005-May-22, 03:09 AM
Ursala K LeGuin
Andre Norton
Lynn Abbey
Elizabeth Moon


My favorite historian (and author) Barbara Tuchman

Author Dorothy Sayers

Author Shirley Jackson

Orpheus
2005-May-22, 09:43 AM
And Nichelle Nicols, the only actress listed?? <snip>

ahhh but there are "actresses" and there is Hedy Lamarr, the perfect combination of beauty (http://www.tccandler.com/talent_file_hedy_lamarr.htm) and brains (http://www.inventions.org/culture/female/lamarr.html)

hi folks, my first post and i get to make it about Hedy!! \:D/

Candy
2005-May-22, 12:46 PM
And Nichelle Nicols, the only actress listed?? <snip>

ahhh but there are "actresses" and there is Hedy Lamarr, the perfect combination of beauty (http://www.tccandler.com/talent_file_hedy_lamarr.htm) and brains (http://www.inventions.org/culture/female/lamarr.html)

hi folks, my first post and i get to make it about Hedy!! \:D/
HELLO, Orpheus! And welcome to a great forum. :D

A Thousand Pardons is the smartest person I know in cyber-world. Learn from him. :wink:

Gillianren
2005-May-22, 09:01 PM
Author Dorothy Sayers

everything I know about wine, I know from her Lord Peter. (granted, I still don't know a lot about wine, but oh, well--he's marvelous anyway.)

in music, Clara Schumann. and St. Cecilia, who (according to legend, anyway) invented the organ. and Janis Joplin, of course. and Mrs. Mozart, who went about promoting her husband's legend after he died.

and Eleanor Roosevelt (not in music), and Edith Wilson, who ran the country for six months or so after her husband's stroke. Mary Pickford, a far brighter woman than history gives her credit for; she helped create the studio system as a benefit to actors.

and good ol' Margaret Mitchell, who wrote the most famous American novel of the twentieth century--and did her research, too.

Fram
2005-May-23, 08:58 AM
Sappho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho)
Hatshepsut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut) (much more than Cleopatra)
Camille Claudel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Claudel)
Tori Amos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tori_Amos)
Dawn Fraser, Fanny Blankers-Koen, Sonja Henie, Steffi Graf, ...
Berthe Morisot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthe_Morisot)
Isadora Duncan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isadora_Duncan)
Alexandra David-Neel (http://www.alexandra-david-neel.org/index_stat.htm)

Melusine
2005-May-23, 11:19 AM
Janis Joplin, of course. and Mrs. Mozart
Cool. :)

I will add Edith Wharton, one of my favorite authors. I never met a story of hers I didn't like. Not only did she win a Pulitzer for "The Age of Innocence," she also won the Cross of the Legion of Honor in 1915 for her relief work in France during WWI. Her themes cover a wide range of life experiences, from children of divorce, to the "vacuous existence of the idle rich," to Americans travelling abroad and "their failure to assimilate foreign experiences, to "the emotional entanglements of a poor farmer" (Ethan Frome).*

*(That's a paraphrase from the brief biography in the preface to "The Age of Innocence," Signet Classic version)

Eroica
2005-May-23, 04:15 PM
Hypatia
Catherine Herschel
Lady Murasaki
Jane Austen
George Eliot

sts60
2005-May-24, 04:54 PM
A science board, and no one has mentioned Grace Hopper (http://www.gracehopper.org/) or astronomers Jocelyn Bell Burnell (http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/whos_who_level2/bell.html), Annie Jump Cannon (http://www.wellesley.edu/Astronomy/annie/), or Henrietta Leavitt (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/baleav.html)?

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-24, 05:07 PM
A science board, and no one has mentioned Grace Hopper (http://www.gracehopper.org/) or astronomers Jocelyn Bell Burnell (http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/whos_who_level2/bell.html), Annie Jump Cannon (http://www.wellesley.edu/Astronomy/annie/), or Henrietta Leavitt (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/baleav.html)?
yeah, Gullible Jones did (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=474295#474295)

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-29, 09:56 AM
Richard of Chelmsford:
And 'chutzpah' is a bit of a silly word, isn't it?
No, chutzpah is not a silly word. I learned it from my Jewish friends ions ago and I think it says more than just guts, or certain body parts, or just any plain 'ol adjective.

Main Entry: chutz·pah Pronunciation Guide
Variant(s): also chutz·pa or hutz·pah or hutz·pa \ktsp, h-, -()spä\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Yiddish khutspe, from Late Hebrew husph
: supreme self-confidence : NERVE : GALL


Most women are over-rated in my opinion, though not those on the BaBB (crawl.)
You're kidding, right? I don't think the women being mentioned here are over-rated! And I couldn't even begin to list the women who sat in the shadows behind some famous men...some almost downright mad men, no less.

Elizabeth Stanton and Margaret Fuller.

I rather meant that if women on the BaBB were portrayed loftily, then, of course, they would deserve it. Which is why they've got the good taste to be on the BaBB!

Which is why I put (crawl) after my post.

And I'm sorry, chuzpah, certainly as it's used in the seat of the English language..England..IS a silly word.

It may be OK to use around Jewish folks, but it tends to be used in England by pretentious idiots, notably in 'gossip' newspaper columns.

It seems to me it doesn't sound remotely like its meaning..either onomatopaeically (SP?) or any other way.

We have another word in England.

Prat.

It can generally be applied to people in England who use the word 'Chuzpah.'

Skipjack
2005-May-29, 10:36 AM
Hello everyone!
I am new to this great board. Have been a big fan of Phils work in the past...
Anyway on the topic:

I want to add Nefertiti (Nofretete).

Here in Austria empress Maria Theresia also has quite a name. She was a more modern thinker (not sure whether this is the correct word for the movement "The Enlightenment").

I am glad someone mentioned Hypatia already, she was my very first thought, when I saw the topic...
CU
Skipjack

Maksutov
2005-May-29, 12:05 PM
[edit]Lillian Gish (http://www.cmgww.com/stars/gish/)...
The Gish sisters were relatives.

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin (http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/cpg.html)

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-29, 11:11 PM
And I couldn't even begin to list the women who sat in the shadows behind some famous men...some almost downright mad men, no less.

Elizabeth Stanton and Margaret Fuller.

And who the heck else, Melusine?

Melusine
2005-May-30, 01:52 AM
And I'm sorry, chuzpah, certainly as it's used in the seat of the English language..England..IS a silly word.

It may be OK to use around Jewish folks, but it tends to be used in England by pretentious idiots, notably in 'gossip' newspaper columns.
Really? Where I come from, which is not England, no one has said to me that its a silly word--it's not a word I use every day, but I see it often enough in writing. And yes, I hear it used on TV news-talk shows and in articles, just as other foreign words or expressions are used, some mentioned here on this forum. It's just a good word that encompasses the meaning of 'guts.' But, if I go to England I'll keep that in mind and only use it around Jewish people. :roll:

It seems to me it doesn't sound remotely like its meaning..either onomatopaeically (SP?) or any other way.
Onomatopoeia ---> crazy spelling word, I had to look that one up to make sure! But, I don't understand what you're saying--why should it sound like its meaning, tons of words don't? "Nerve" "gall" doesn't sound like it's meaning either. Buzz and hiss are the examples Webster's uses for onomatopoeia.

We have another word in England.

Prat.

It can generally be applied to people in England who use the word 'Chuzpah.'
I looked up prat; one definition is an early form of pretty, another is buttocks; I'm sure you must be referring to buttocks.
If you're implying that I'm a pair of buttocks for using chutzpah, then I'll remind you again that I'm not in England. I also could be Jewish, did that occur to you? I'll have to run that by my Anglophile-friends. :lol:

Melusine wrote:
And I couldn't even begin to list the women who sat in the shadows behind some famous men...some almost downright mad men, no less.

Elizabeth Stanton and Margaret Fuller.

Richard of Chelmsford wrote:
And who the heck else, Melusine?

The former statement and the two women are not related--I thought the space would show that, but maybe not. A couple of women in this category have already been mentioned, but I was thinking especially those wives of artists and writers (I'll avoid political ones). Women like William Blake's wife, Catherine, for instance were the cogs in their wheels. Blake was pretty mentally off the rails in many ways. Joseph Conrad's wife Jessie took a back seat to him; Sarah Coleridge and Coleridge's daughter edited his work and took backseats to him-especially his wife; well you can just throw in that whole Romantic gang for a lot of twisted relationships; William Styron's wife was a backbone for him; Frederic Chopin's wife; Jackson Pollock's wife Lee Krasner; and so on...

I may have used "mad" too lightly, but these were not easy men to live with, and some of these women were talented in their own right, but stood in their husband's shadows. Then there's that "debate" about Einstein's wife... :lol:

Lurker
2005-May-30, 02:19 AM
Actually, the chuzpah is a negative term in hebrew used to describe someone who has stepped beyond what would be considered polite behavior. Leave it to Americans to turn such an expression into a compliment.

:roll:

AGN Fuel
2005-May-30, 02:27 AM
Some remarkable people in this list. Here is a personal favourite to throw into the mix....

Nancy Wake (http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/wake.html)

Melusine
2005-May-30, 03:07 AM
Actually, the chuzpah is a negative term in hebrew used to describe someone who has stepped beyond what would be considered polite behavior. Leave it to Americans to turn such an expression into a compliment.

:roll:
Well, not exactly Lurker. It's not a compliment, per se, in that she's great. The word was used with Helen Keller, who many disagreed with her life's work, but she had chutzpah, nerve, b*lls (can I say that?)--you may disagree with her views, but she had spine. I can disagree with somebody and still give them credit for having guts to stand up for something, and maybe chutzpah has morphed enough that it's used as nerve can be used as, "You have a lot of nerve to do that!" or "She's got the nerve to argue her case, thankfully." I will check again with some people, thanks.

Maksutov
2005-May-30, 03:22 AM
And I'm sorry, chuzpah, certainly as it's used in the seat of the English language..England..IS a silly word.

It may be OK to use around Jewish folks, but it tends to be used in England by pretentious idiots, notably in 'gossip' newspaper columns.
Really? Where I come from, which is not England, no one has said to me that its a silly word--it's not a word I use every day, but I see it often enough in writing. And yes, I hear it used on TV news-talk shows and in articles, just as other foreign words or expressions are used, some mentioned here on this forum. It's just a good word that encompasses the meaning of 'guts.' But, if I go to England I'll keep that in mind and only use it around Jewish people. :roll:

It seems to me it doesn't sound remotely like its meaning..either onomatopaeically (SP?) or any other way.
Onomatopoeia ---> crazy spelling word, I had to look that one up to make sure! But, I don't understand what you're saying--why should it sound like its meaning, tons of words don't? "Nerve" "gall" doesn't sound like it's meaning either. Buzz and hiss are the examples Webster's uses for onomatopoeia.

We have another word in England.

Prat.

It can generally be applied to people in England who use the word 'Chuzpah.'
I looked up prat; one definition is an early form of pretty, another is buttocks; I'm sure you must be referring to buttocks.
If you're implying that I'm a pair of buttocks for using chutzpah, then I'll remind you again that I'm not in England. I also could be Jewish, did that occur to you? I'll have to run that by my Anglophile-friends. :lol:[edit]

As someone who grew up in the New York City area, I can vouch for the fact that "chutzpah" is part of the everyday vocabulary of a large percentage of the people who live there. It tends to have a more dramatic effect than someone saying, "He's got a lot of noive!" or the more vulgar variant thereof.

Just as you didn't have to be Italian to find "Ciao!" and "Mangia!" part of your everyday vocabulary, neither did you have to be Jewish for the same to happen with not just the subject word, but also "schlemiel", "klutz", "yenta", "nosh", "meshugeh", "schmaltz" (ah, Vita pickled schmaltz herring (what ever happened to the "Herring Maven?))", "maven", "kibbitz" (not to be confused with "kibbutz"), "schlepp", "schlock", "kibosh", and "schnook". And that's not even close to the whole "schmear"!

Anyone who has lived the greater NYC area for at least a few years typically knows and uses these words.

BTW, the classic example of someone with chutzpah is the guy who murders his mother and father, then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan. :wink:

Mazeltov! :D

Melusine
2005-May-30, 04:05 AM
I definitely schlepp to work every day!

Etymology: Yiddish shlepen to drag, from Middle High German sleppen, slpen, from Middle Low German slpen; akin to Middle Dutch slepen to drag, Old High German sleifen; causative from the root of Middle Dutch slipen to whet, polish, Middle Low German slpen to polish, Old High German slfan to slide, whet; akin to Old English slipor slippery -- more at SLIPPERY

AGN, thanks for that link--interesting.

Nancy Wake is now 90 and living (with the support of Prince Charles) in London, Nancy had a heart attack in February 2003 and is recuperating in hospital. NZEdge is sure she would be buoyed by messages of aroha from New Zealanders, so write/fax her at:

The Stafford Hotel, Piccadilly
16-18 St James Place,
London, SW1 A1NJ;
fax +44 20 7493 7121;
email: info@thestaffordhotel.co.uk http://www.thestaffordhotel.co.uk/email/index.html
90! All right!

BTW, it's our Memorial Day, but it's people like her from other countries that can be remembered, too. In fact, sometimes other nations pay more attention to it than we do.
http://www.usmemorialday.org/observe.htm

Edit: Add note: BTW, Agn, that link to Janet Frame (http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/frame.html) was interesting, too. The movie, "An Angel At My Table," made me cry, and not too many movies do that to me. I have some of her stories.

Gillianren
2005-May-30, 06:35 AM
And I couldn't even begin to list the women who sat in the shadows behind some famous men...some almost downright mad men, no less.

Elizabeth Stanton and Margaret Fuller.

And who the heck else, Melusine?

leaving aside Melusine's statement that she (yes?) didn't mean the latter to be in the same category as the former, I'd like to re-mention both Clara Schumann and Lillian Gilbreth.

okay, no, Frank Gilbreth wasn't mad. (well, I think actually wanting twelve children in twelve--or fewer--years is a little crazy, but whatever.) and Schumann, I have no evidence on. both women were, however, in their husbands' shadows until the aforementioned husbands died . . . and then they "carried on his work."

also, Mary Shelley. (her husband was definitely mad.) Abigail Adams. Edith Wilson. and, of course, all those women whose names history doesn't record, simply because their husband is the only important one.

however, no one discovers, creates, or rules in a vacuum. we don't know what effect Anne Hathaway had on Shakespeare, but I think it's reasonable to assume she had some even though they didn't live together. and what about poor Elizabeth of York, the prize Henry VII took from Bosworth Field along with the crown? that man can't have been easy to live with. Marie de Guise, ruling Scotland while her husband was, well, dead, and her child, the actual queen, away in France. (my feelings on Mary are complicated, but I am definitely not going to include her on a list of great leaders.) Catherine de Medici, who was queen of France in all but name while it was ruled by four different kings. (of course, as a Medici, she was used to dealing w/madmen.)

okay, reading over this, I realize that most of my examples are from the Tudor era. well, it's the history I know the best. but think, for a while, on how history might have been different if just one of Katherine of Aragon's sons had lived--or Anne Boleyn's. think about the progress Catherine the Great made in Russia--and that, in a familiar fashion, her enemies picked on her sex life instead. (no, she's not from the Tudor era, but she's worth considering.)

Isabella of Spain may not have hocked her jewels to pay for Columbus's voyage, but she did have a lot of influence over the financing of his journey. conversely, under the heading of "influential, but not great," consider Marie Antoinette and Alexandra Romanov, whose excesses certainly led to change.

or Queen Victoria, for heaven's sake. certainly she had more personal influence over her era than just about anyone else. she made mourning fashionable, all other considerations aside. (and paper patterns, when she clothed her children in the best from Butterick.)

to me, women who influenced history are more impressive for less influence than men, at least until the 20th century, simply because they had fewer chances to be influential, aside from all those nameless women who influenced husbands and sons.

Candy
2005-May-30, 06:41 AM
to me, women who influenced history are more impressive for less influence than men, at least until the 20th century, simply because they had fewer chances to be influential, aside from all those nameless women who influenced husbands and sons.
Richard of Chelmsford's mother is an author, which obviously has inspired him. :wink:

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-30, 08:39 PM
Actually, 'prat' is not 'buttocks'.

It is just a slang word for a silly or ineffectual person.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-30, 08:44 PM
why do you think they call it a pratfall?

frogesque
2005-May-30, 08:49 PM
Actually, 'prat' is not 'buttocks'.

It is just a slang word for a silly or ineffectual person.

Aparently (much to my surprise) it can be either Compact Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/prat?view=uk)


prat

• noun informal 1 Brit. an incompetent or stupid person. 2 a person’s bottom.


I always thought it was the former of the two definitions and is the only meaning I would use.

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-30, 10:13 PM
No-one in Britain EVER calls your bottom your prat!

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-May-30, 10:30 PM
While you ladies are listing all these perfect women whose imperfect, but famous husbands wouldn't have survived without them don't leave out this one.

Beryl Khan.

Wife of Genghis Khan.

If she hadn't shouted "Go get 'em Genghy!!!" every time he went of raiding and pillaging he would never have conquered half the world.


Buuuut..joking apart, back to that silly word.

It's probably just me, but I don't myself like to use words which don't come from my birth language, or my cultural background.

OK, others may feel differently, but to me, such people are really just parroting others, often with the pretentious hope of trying to sound better than they normally would.

We've got a lot of IQ 2 people in the UK who parrot Americanisms all the time. I think they are prats.

I'm rather reminded by this whole aside of a comment by Henry Thoreau, in his book 'Walden' about people who slavishly copy the fashions of others..

"The head monkey at Paris puts on a travellor's cap, and all the monkeys in America do the same."

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-30, 10:45 PM
No-one in Britain EVER calls your bottom your prat!
That's etymology for you.

No one in the USA ever calls the male appendage a schmuck either.

Gullible Jones
2005-May-30, 10:46 PM
I live in the US, and I've never heard anyone referring to anyone's buttocks as their "prat"...

Candy
2005-May-31, 05:58 AM
I live in the US, and I've never heard anyone referring to anyone's buttocks as their "prat"...
I've only ever heard the word when it comes to airplane engines (http://www.pratt-whitney.com/). :P

papageno
2005-May-31, 09:21 AM
I have not seen the name of this lady: Lise Meitner, head of the group that discovered and identified nuclear fission (I hope Glom will be happy).

frogesque
2005-May-31, 09:26 AM
I live in the US, and I've never heard anyone referring to anyone's buttocks as their "prat"...
I've only ever heard the word when it comes to airplane engines (http://www.pratt-whitney.com/). :P

I think the surname always has a double 't' at the end.

Melusine
2005-May-31, 04:03 PM
I apologize if it's been said, but I couldn't find it in a rush:

Florence Nightingale

Florence Nightingale is most remembered as a pioneer of nursing and a reformer of hospital sanitation methods. For most of her ninety years, Nightingale pushed for reform of the British military health-care system and with that the profession of nursing started to gain the respect it deserved. Unknown to many, however, was her use of new techniques of statistical analysis, such as during the Crimean War when she plotted the incidence of preventable deaths in the military. She developed the "polar-area diagram" to dramatize the needless deaths caused by unsanitary conditions and the need for reform. With her analysis, Florence Nightingale revolutionized the idea that social phenomena could be objectively measured and subjected to mathematical analysis. She was an innovator in the collection, tabulation, interpretation, and graphical display of descriptive statistics.
http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/nitegale.htm

And Gillianren, nice post back there, and I agree, those women of yore deserve a bit more respect for overcoming the odds.

Gillianren
2005-May-31, 05:35 PM
use words which don't come from my birth language, or my cultural background.

but that's what English is all about! the English language has more words in it than any other, simply because it is English's nature to steal words from other languages. there are an awful lot of words you couldn't say if you stuck to the Anglo-Saxon--or even the Norman--and if you don't, you're being, I think, a bit hypocritical. after all, I'm sure when words like "monsoon" first started being used, there were people who thought of them as an affectation. or "denim." (cloth de Nimes.) or any one of thousands of other words. so Yiddish isn't good enough, already?

yes, there were women who encouraged their husbands to horrible things. yes, there were women who did horrible things themselves. but you cannot use them to deny that there were women to encouraged their husbands to do great things or did great things themselves.

Parrothead
2005-May-31, 06:16 PM
Being a Canadian, to our country's history the story of Laura Secord (http://www.galafilm.com/1812/e/people/secord.html) (not referring to chocolates) and her journey to warn Fitzgibbon about the impending American attack at Beaver Dams stands out. Could the War of 1812 had turned out differently had the Americans captured the Niagara area is debatable. The fact that she made the journey and allowed the British forces to turn the tables on the American surprise attack, makes her a notable woman in history (to Canadians anyways). :D

papageno
2005-Jun-01, 09:47 AM
but that's what English is all about! the English language has more words in it than any other, simply because it is English's nature to steal words from other languages.
German does it as well. [-(
:wink:

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-05, 09:21 PM
use words which don't come from my birth language, or my cultural background.

but that's what English is all about! the English language has more words in it than any other, simply because it is English's nature to steal words from other languages. there are an awful lot of words you couldn't say if you stuck to the Anglo-Saxon--or even the Norman--and if you don't, you're being, I think, a bit hypocritical. after all, I'm sure when words like "monsoon" first started being used, there were people who thought of them as an affectation. or "denim." (cloth de Nimes.) or any one of thousands of other words. so Yiddish isn't good enough, already?



Yes, Gillianren, there's some truth in what you say, of course, but most of these words were in the language before I was born (birth language)

The point I'm trying to make is that just because someone makes up a word or coins an expression we all have to use it or it has to go into our language.

Yiddish? there's only one Yiddish word I'm aware of which is the one we were discussing..what is it? Hut-spa, or something stupid.

But that's not all, and after all, we all object to some expression or other. I just don't like my share.

'Gay' a silly word which diminishes everyone who uses it.

The single word 'Enjoy' used by pretentious plonkers.

The numb American habit (which has now been copied by numbskulls all over Britain) or referring to girls as 'guys'..can't the plonkers tell the difference any more?

The cheap word 'partner' used to describe the person you're supposed to be in love with. It's a bit like calling your mother your 'foetus gestator.'

And to illustrate my point that not all words come into the language..for about twenty years until a short while ago, the British press constantly referred to single women as 'bachelor girls.'

But never once did I hear anyone use the expression and now you never see it in the papers. It was one that just didn't make it into the language.

Let's consign 'hoot-spare' to the same fate, girls.

frogesque
2005-Jun-05, 10:35 PM
RoC

The problem I have is that I was born and raised in the South East of England and moved to Scotland when I was 17 and apart from a spell of 3 years in Northern Ireland I have lived here since. At the time I first came here there were so many different words and idioms used that it was almost a foreign language but gradually I adopted these words into my own daily usage. The same thing (to lesser extent) happened when I was in Northern Ireland. Having been on the internet I have also had friendships that span continents and accept that as well as the common middle ground 'mid-Atlantic' language there are Americanisms and Australasionisms that have their own colour and humour. It's not an affectation that I use non-UK native words and terms, usually its for brevity and clarity.

English is a very rich omnivorous language that will happily gorge itself and adopt words like tsunami from Japan, doppelgänger from Germany, paparazzi from Italy or pakora from India. Why should Yiddish be any more sacrosanct?

I do dislike the abuse of the word gay, it used to be a very pretty, joyful word but its usage and meaning has changed (probably irreveracably) and I have to accept that. The alternative is to have a language set, designed by a committee, wrought in unchangeable unchallengeable iron rules. English is not dead like Latin, neither is it Orwell's 1984 where a limited language is used to control thought. Like a predatory wolf it is hungry, dangerous and beautiful.

Musashi
2005-Jun-05, 10:51 PM
The numb American habit (which has now been copied by numbskulls all over Britain) or referring to girls as 'guys'..can't the plonkers tell the difference any more?


That is an American habit? Haven't heard it before.

Melusine
2005-Jun-05, 11:50 PM
Yes, Gillianren, there's some truth in what you say, of course, but most of these words were in the language before I was born (birth language)

The point I'm trying to make is that just because someone makes up a word or coins an expression we all have to use it or it has to go into our language.

Yiddish? there's only one Yiddish word I'm aware of which is the one we were discussing..what is it? Hut-spa, or something stupid.
Let's consign 'hoot-spare' to the same fate, girls.
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s27/smilies-25255.png
Richard, I think Gillianren and Frogesque have made it clear, and Maksutov showed you a bunch of other Yiddish based words that have made it into our general lexicon, plus I stressed shlep.

In our general speaking we use Latin phrases and words: person non grata, de facto, bona fide, et al, ad lib, quid pro quo, modus operandi etc.

German words: schadenfraude, wunderkind, zeitgeist, sturm und drang, ersatz, verboten, leitmotif, Frogesque mentioned doppelganger, etc.

French we use a lot: de riguer, raison d'etre, noblesse oblige, je ne sais quoi, tour de force, double entendre, enfant terrible, fait acompli, creme de la creme, c'est la vie, etc. My favorite: nostalgie de la boue.

Italian has been mentioned, ciao (which is hello and goodbye), paparazzi

Spanish: in the US, people who don't speak Spanish use manana, hasta la vista, buenos noches, amigos, as a matter of normal discourse in parts of the US and think nothing of it.

A book out there,"Drek!: The Real Yiddish Your Bubbe Never Taught You" (http://shopping.msn.com/search/detail.aspx?pcId=12746&prodId=382785)
says:

Description
One doesn't have to be Jewish to recognize the words which have made their way into every fold of popular language: Chutzpah, Mensch, Tokhes, Mishmash, Nudge, Shtick, Schmaltzy, Schlep, Icky, and so on. Then there are phrases whose meaning and syntax are borrowed from Yiddish: "bite your tongue," "drop dead," "enough already', and "excuse the expression." This hilarious, concise guide includes chapters on the Basic Descriptions of People (the good, the bad, the ugly, and the goofy), the Fine Art of Cursing, Juicy Words and Phrases, Exclamations and Exasperations, and the Fine Art of Blessing.

So, if you like your steak and potatoes plain without anything on them, that's fine, you can think whatever you'd like, but I'm not sure why you keep going on about it. But, I have used the word chutzpah since young; I don't think it's a silly or stupid word, though like all the other foreign words and phrases, I don't use it every day, and frankly your deliberate misspelling of it is disrespectful to the word and words in general, and perhaps people. I'm going to keep using it--if it makes me a "prat", so be it.

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s27/smilies-25256.png

Back on topic: Helen Keller had a lot of chutzpah--she was blind, deaf, and mute, but educated herself and stood up for what she believed in when others tried to bring her down.

edit space

Melusine
2005-Jun-05, 11:53 PM
The numb American habit (which has now been copied by numbskulls all over Britain) or referring to girls as 'guys'..can't the plonkers tell the difference any more?


That is an American habit? Haven't heard it before.
Yeah, we've said it here in the US at least since I was a kid..."You guys want to come to the football game?"...whether it's a group of guys or girls. In the South they just, "Y'all want to come to the game?"

Whatever. It's a colloquialism.

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley-flag/smiley-13057.png

Musashi
2005-Jun-06, 12:00 AM
Ah, I get it now, didn't get the context before. I can see refering to a mixed group as guys, but if it was all girls, I would probably use a female pronoun. I seem to recall some similar method for spanish, but, it has been a while.

Candy
2005-Jun-06, 06:47 AM
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley-flag/smiley-13057.png
That little bugger (spelling) is so cute! :lol:

EvilBob
2005-Jun-06, 07:36 AM
As an Aussie, I have to nominate Caroline Chisholm (http://www.abc.net.au/btn/australians/chisholm.htm).

Edited for spelling...

Halcyon Dayz
2005-Jun-06, 11:53 AM
Kenau (http://kenau-simonsdochter-hasselaer.biography.ms/)

Gillianren
2005-Jun-06, 08:42 PM
I was watching the Discovery Channel's special on the 100 greatest Americans last night (also known as Matt Lauer looking perplexed over stupid Americans), and only 19 of them were women. I am slightly less angry over this than that there was only one novelist and half-a-dozen sports figures (one of which not even Bob Costas could work out why he was on the list), and I'm somewhat impressed that both Susan B. Anthony and Harriet Tubman made the list, but I'm still pretty annoyed.

so, because I am so very peeved, here's my list of Great American Women Who Didn't Make Discovery's List:

Abigail Adams
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Edith Wilson
Betty Ford
Margaret Mitchell (that one novelist was Mark Twain)
Mary Pickford
Barbara McClintock
Barbara Walters
Jane Pauley
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Jane Addams
Margaret Sanger
Wilma Rudolph
Madeleine Albright
Sandra Day O'Connor
Ruth Bader Ginsberg
Dolores Huerta
Carrie Chapman Catt
Gloria Steinem (who they interviewed, for heaven's sake!)
Betty Friedan

and probably several more that I'm forgetting. (for the record, much as I love Eleanor Roosevelt, I'm voting for Thomas Jefferson.)

Candy
2005-Jun-06, 08:57 PM
I was watching the Discovery Channel's special on the 100 greatest Americans last night...
Wow, I'm impressed that you watched it. =D>

I wanted to, but lost track. :(

sarongsong
2005-Jun-06, 10:22 PM
"...the Nachthexen, the Night Witches..." (http://www.aerospacemuseum.org/upcoming/airwomen.html)

Candy
2005-Jun-06, 10:38 PM
"...the Nachthexen, the Night Witches..." (http://www.aerospacemuseum.org/upcoming/airwomen.html)
sarongsong, I'm literally speechless... those women are not only brave... but they are so... 8)

frogesque
2005-Jun-06, 10:45 PM
"...the Nachthexen, the Night Witches..." (http://www.aerospacemuseum.org/upcoming/airwomen.html)

Remarkable ladies in remarkable times

George
2005-Jun-07, 12:27 AM
I have not seen the name of this lady: Lise Meitner, head of the group that discovered and identified nuclear fission (I hope Glom will be happy).
I'm happier. She was, apparently, cheated of much credit due to selfish others. More on her .... here (http://www.users.bigpond.com/Sinclair/fission/Work.html)

Oddly, no one has mentioned my mother who is my favorite woman leader. =D>

Gillianren
2005-Jun-07, 12:56 AM
I was watching the Discovery Channel's special on the 100 greatest Americans last night...
Wow, I'm impressed that you watched it. =D>

I wanted to, but lost track. :(

I came very, very close to turning it off when they announced what's-his-name, the first football player on the list. I mean, Jackie Robinson, yes. Lance Armstrong, sure. but this guy . . . well, I'm pretty sure I'd heard of him before (not a sports person; does it show?), but I kept going, mostly to watch Matt Lauer look irked. I'm about half-convinced he's going to go door-to-door, smacking people over the head with dictionaries opened to the word "great."

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-07, 04:47 PM
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley-flag/smiley-13057.png

How true.
:lol:
Actually, some new words and expressions seem ok to me.

For example, 'Native American' which seems respective and descriptive of the actuality.

A point to be made about foreign words in the English language. Someone mentioned 'monsoon' as an example.

We don't get monsoons in Britain.

So, if we hear about them happening abroad we will, of course, use that word.

Which applies to about 90% of foreign words coming into our language.

But if you insist a stupid word like 'Chuzpah' (sorry, can't remember how to spell it because you don't spell it remotely as it sounds) all you are doing is pretentiously taking a foreign word as a replacement for an English word.

Which not just say 'cheek?'

(Another lecture coming up. :x )

Melusine
2005-Jun-07, 05:35 PM
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley-flag/smiley-13057.png


How true.
:lol:

But if you insist a stupid word like 'Chuzpah' (sorry, can't remember how to spell it because you don't spell it remotely as it sounds) all you are doing is pretentiously taking a foreign word as a replacement for an English word.Which not just say 'cheek?'

(Another lecture coming up. :x )
Sorry Richard, you're not going to win this one, words are too much my thing. I'll be a prat and keep CHUTZPAH, which isn't MY spelling, BUT IT DOES spell like it sounds.

I can't tell you how many people on the board you're insulting, because I've seen them use non-native foreign words and expressions. The word cheek doesn't even remotely fit with my Helen Keller statement. :D

Richard, you are being a stubborn mule! :D


http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s27/smilies-26456.png

Gillianren
2005-Jun-07, 06:20 PM
and as to words only entering the language before your birth . . . well, I can't completely answer that, because I don't know how old you are, but there are words that entered English during the 20th Century . . . which, in America at least, "chutzpah" didn't. remember, the great mass of Eastern European immigrants to America was the 19th Century, and a little linguistic digging would show that "chutzpah" first started being used among English-speakers then. and "schmear," and "schlep," and all those other lovely Yiddishisms which are continuing the grand English tradition.

however, no, monsoons don't happen in America, either--at least, we call them "hurricanes," monsoons being a term specific to Asian storms. (though there is a monsoon season in Arizona, it's different and just refers to the annual heavy rains of August and September.) and, of course, "hurricane" isn't a native English word, either. before your birth? yes, unless you're way older than I think you are--like, Guinness Book of Records, Galapagos turtle old.

and no, "chutzpah" and "cheek" aren't the same thing at all. "cheek," to me, implies that the person who has it is of lower class and/or status than the speaker--a cheeky robin or chimney sweep, to use the two examples that spring to mind from my reading--whereas I think Melusine would agree that "chutzpah," while never exactly applying to robins, applies regardless of status. "cheek" also strikes me as somewhat patronizing.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Jun-07, 07:02 PM
And Nichelle Nicols, the only actress listed?? <snip>

ahhh but there are "actresses" and there is Hedy Lamarr, the perfect combination of beauty (http://www.tccandler.com/talent_file_hedy_lamarr.htm) and brains (http://www.inventions.org/culture/female/lamarr.html)
I just learned, from reading the 60's sitcom thread, that Julie Newmar invented Nudemars.


The numb American habit (which has now been copied by numbskulls all over Britain) or referring to girls as 'guys'..can't the plonkers tell the difference any more?

That is an American habit? Haven't heard it before.
It was used that way in the wilds of Wyoming in the sixties. I think I remember that the main character in Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains! (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082639/) (1981, supposedly never released on VHS or DVD) looks out over a large crowd of female fans and says "You guys..."

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-08, 12:12 PM
and as to words only entering the language before your birth . . . well, I can't completely answer that, because I don't know how old you are, but there are words that entered English during the 20th Century . . . which, in America at least, "chutzpah" didn't. remember, the great mass of Eastern European immigrants to America was the 19th Century, and a little linguistic digging would show that "chutzpah" first started being used among English-speakers then. and "schmear," and "schlep," and all those other lovely Yiddishisms which are continuing the grand English tradition.



Hello Gillianren, actually I'm 56, and I have NEVER heard anyone in Britain say 'chuzpah'..I've just seen it written by pretentious female newspaper columnists.

And I'm not insulting you or anyone, Methusaline..it's against the BaBB rules. Seems to me you're insulting me quite a lot, plus our language.

I'm just laughing at you and your obvious huffiness and discomforture.

Fancy getting so upset because a chap on the other side of the Atlantic laughs at your silly use of language!

But that aside..you say you're a word person.

How's this for a use of words published in the British daily Mail today..

'Any ambitious alliterative author allegedly aiming at acquiring artistic accolade awards almost always achieves actual aureate acclamation as analytical almanacs advantageously approve, and annual anthologies automatically accept auspicious applicants' accomplishments, avidly acknowledging all axiomatic ability, additionally, albeit advisedly, abrogating artificially abstract abbreviations affecting alternative attributes.'

Any Yiddish words in that little lot?

papageno
2005-Jun-08, 12:18 PM
I have not seen the name of this lady: Lise Meitner, head of the group that discovered and identified nuclear fission (I hope Glom will be happy).
I'm happier. She was, apparently, cheated of much credit due to selfish others. More on her .... here (http://www.users.bigpond.com/Sinclair/fission/Work.html)
Indeed, she deserved to share the Nobel prize.
But she had to flee Germany before that.

ToSeek
2005-Jun-08, 02:05 PM
Which not just say 'cheek?'



I don't think many Americans would understand "cheek." It's mostly a British expression.

And I agree that it's not a perfect synonym for "chutzpah." "Cheek" is mouthing off to an authority figure. The classic definition of "chutzpah" is the defendant who kills both his parents, then pleas for leniency on the grounds that he's an orphan.

Melusine
2005-Jun-08, 03:04 PM
Richard wrote:And I'm not insulting you or anyone, Methusaline..it's against the BaBB rules. Seems to me you're insulting me quite a lot, plus our language.

I'm just laughing at you and your obvious huffiness and discomforture.

Fancy getting so upset because a chap on the other side of the Atlantic laughs at your silly use of language!
Richard, I have not insulted you "quite a lot" at all, anyone can read the thread. After your insistence of misspelling the word, referring to me as a prat, I even tried to make light of that, and chidingly said you were being a "stubborn mule." And you continue on to insult me, when Maksutov and Gillianren have confirmed the use of chutzpah as well, plus I backed it up with references that it's not a silly word and acceptably used. If you are just continuing on to poke at me, then I'll ignore it (and your posts) from herein out. OK? I think discussion of language is as serious and important as discussion of science, and I don't recall ever discussing anything with you that would warrant this disrespect you are displaying here towards me, and language. :-?

Candy
2005-Jun-08, 03:42 PM
What did I miss? 8-[

Candy
2005-Jun-08, 03:52 PM
What's this thread about again? :-k

Melusine
2005-Jun-08, 03:58 PM
What did I miss? 8-[
You didn't miss anything worth going on about.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned Eva Peron (http://www.jlhs.nhusd.k12.ca.us/Classes/Social_Science/Latin_America/Evita%20Web/Evita.html) as a notable female figure in history.

Candy
2005-Jun-08, 04:11 PM
What did I miss? 8-[
You didn't miss anything worth going on about.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned Eva Peron (http://www.jlhs.nhusd.k12.ca.us/Classes/Social_Science/Latin_America/Evita%20Web/Evita.html) as a notable female figure in history.
Wow, she's very sexy, too. Who in the world thought Madonna (mustache and all) should play her in a movie? :o

Gillianren
2005-Jun-08, 06:12 PM
honestly? don't feel it's all that surprising. they look quite a lot alike (which I hadn't realized until I saw the movie, I'll admit), and they have fairly similar reputations. think about it--they both have a reputation for using their bodies to gain influence.

Richard . . . you have been unfailingly patronizing. (or patronising, if you prefer.) you've yet to acknowledge that you think any of the women mentioned are great, merely saying that you don't think women are as great as men. (I'm paraphrasing, but I think I've got the feel of your reaction down.) while I won't claim "chutzpah" is spelled exactly the way it sounds (that pesky "ch" to indicate phlegm), I'd be more inclined to trust it as legitimate bad spelling if you left off the "c," not the obviously-pronounced "t." in short--you think we're being cheeky. we, however, feel that we have chutzpah.

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-09, 07:53 AM
Gillianren and Methusline, you're both wrong.

I have never called you a prat, Methusaline..try reading the posts..I just agreed with you when you called yourself a prat.

And Gillianren..what did you say..? I've forgotten within moments of reading it.

Anyway, I think you're both making fools of yourselves by coming out with a lot of high and mighty (feminist?) stuff over what is really a very small issue.

Suppose we just call a truce..anyway I want to start a new post soon.

Methusaline, we've got another expression in Britain, usually said in good humour.

'Methusaline, don't be a prat!'

I'm sure you're not and you've stuck to your guns and made your point.

But then so have I.

So let's leave it at that, girls. :) :) :) :)

Melusine
2005-Jun-09, 08:15 AM
Ha ha, lucky you, I'm alive and well at 3:00 in the morning.... :lol:

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley-flag/smiley-13224.png





Psst...we better not say Gloria Steinem....(just kidding).

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-09, 08:19 AM
Actually I've been getting your name wrong, haven't I?

Sorry about that.

And go to bed at once!! [-X

Melusine
2005-Jun-09, 08:34 AM
Actually I've been getting your name wrong, haven't I?

Sorry about that.

And go to bed at once!! [-X
Oh, no problem, it sort of sounds like you were calling me Methuselah, which is a bit ironic, but if I live to a ripe old age, all the better to drive everyone insane with words!

I can't go to bed at this point--if I do it now, I won't be able to get up. I already had fallen alseep while I was putting new sheets on the bed, and then woke up; that's what happens, and it causes erratic sleeping, which might be why I'm often irritable these days. 8-[

Back on topic:

Sandra Day O'Connor. I choose her because she is the first woman to have been appointed an associate justice on the United States Supreme Court, and before that she was the first justice in history, male or female, to have been first a judge of an intermediate appellate court, the Arizona Court of Appeals. I think she carries herself with grace, she's a great speaker, so I've been told, and my dad managed to get her to autograph her last book for me in 2003, so I think that's special too, since she is definitely a historical figure.

Maksutov
2005-Jun-09, 09:38 AM
Which not just say 'cheek?'



I don't think many Americans would understand "cheek." It's mostly a British expression.

And I agree that it's not a perfect synonym for "chutzpah." "Cheek" is mouthing off to an authority figure. The classic definition of "chutzpah" is the defendant who kills both his parents, then pleas for leniency on the grounds that he's an orphan.
ToSeeked by Maksutov. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=478138#478138)

On target re "chutzpah" and "cheek". Most Americans would find the use of "cheek" in that context inappropriate, and would consider "cheek" to be a silly word. Along with other silly words such as "fag", "elevenses", "nappy", "spanner", "brolly", "titbit", "banger", and "loo".

Oy, was ferschluginner, gebrochener english! Some might say, feinshmeker, already? :wink:

Meanwhile (we should be so lucky, my bubbe once said), how about Amelia Earhart (www.ameliaearhart.com)? =D>

Melusine
2005-Jun-09, 09:53 AM
Maksutov ---->

Quote:
A Thousand Pardons wrote:
But nobody listed Amelia Earhardt?

Melusine wrote:
Excellent choice. When I was little, oh about 7, I went to the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum and bought this book about her in the store there; I fell in love with her spirit. Sometimes I like to think she's still flying around out there, but of course, metaphorically-speaking.
...but great choice!

Maksutov
2005-Jun-09, 10:09 AM
And 'chutzpah' is a bit of a silly word, isn't it?
See the list of "Britishisms" in my post above for some silly words. And that's just for starters. Note the "wink" smilie.


It's probably just me, but I don't myself like to use words which don't come from my birth language, or my cultural background.
Uh, what language were you speaking the day you were born?

Seriously it all comes down to culture and communication. Where I grew up and learned my "native" language, foreign expressions were part of the vernacular. If you didn't learn them and use them, then you couldn't understand a lot of what other people were saying and often couldn't be effectively understood by them. So it in most cases isn't linguistic snobbery, it's a matter of basic communication skills. One speaks the language your audience understands.

Now if it's true no one in England understands "chutzpah", I can understand the part of your case re its usage there being 'silly", but that understanding ends with the characterization of the word itself as being "silly". That's a position of arrogance.

Every language has words that will sound silly to speakers of other languages. Even within a language there are dialects and regionalisms that sound silly to speakers of the same language who happen to have learned their particular version in a different region/dialect. Case in point re the former: want a quick, cheap laugh? Mention the German word for "journey" in front of a group of schoolboys or intoxicated pub denizens. You'll get a laugh. But that doesn't mean the German word is intrinsically silly.

¿Comprende? :D

Maksutov
2005-Jun-09, 10:12 AM
Maksutov ---->

Quote:
A Thousand Pardons wrote:
But nobody listed Amelia Earhardt?

Melusine wrote:
Excellent choice. When I was little, oh about 7, I went to the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum and bought this book about her in the store there; I fell in love with her spirit. Sometimes I like to think she's still flying around out there, but of course, metaphorically-speaking.
...but great choice!
Thanks.

As my link indicates, I was referring to Amelia Earhart. I have no idea who that "Earhardt" person is/was. :wink:

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-09, 04:21 PM
Along with other silly words such as "fag", "elevenses", "nappy", "spanner", "brolly", "titbit", "banger", and "loo".



Yes, Matsukov, most of those words aren't in my vocabulary.

'Fag'..isn't that an American homosexual?

Yes, it's a cigarette in England. I don't say 'elevenses' but I have changed a nappy which is a better word than 'daiper'. What do you say for 'spanner'? 'Brolly' not used in UK now much. 'Titbit'..don't say that.
'Banger'..nor that.

'Loo' yes, that is a stupid word. Most people say 'bog.'

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-09, 04:24 PM
Gillianren, are you still looking in?

Did you say I didn't support any females who had been proposed in this thread.

I proposed one myself, Helen Sharman, who hasn't been commented on by anyone else.

Melusine
2005-Jun-09, 05:47 PM
Gillianren, are you still looking in?

Did you say I didn't support any females who had been proposed in this thread.

I proposed one myself, Helen Sharman, who hasn't been commented on by anyone else.
Yes, you did mention Helen Sharman...it was kind of tucked in the middle of your post on the first page (that's why I bold the name). :D


October 1984: Helen Sharman was the first British astronaut in space when she flew aboard the Russian space craft Soyuz TM-12 on May 18, 1991.
Here's a timeline of Women In Space (http://www.aerospaceguide.net/women_in_space/) where that blurb comes from.

ToSeek
2005-Jun-09, 07:05 PM
Along with other silly words such as "fag", "elevenses", "nappy", "spanner", "brolly", "titbit", "banger", and "loo".



Yes, Matsukov, most of those words aren't in my vocabulary.

'Fag'..isn't that an American homosexual?

Yes. And isn't there some other British use so that it's possible to say, "He was my fag at Oxford" without embarrassment?


Yes, it's a cigarette in England. I don't say 'elevenses' but I have changed a nappy which is a better word than 'daiper'. What do you say for 'spanner'?

A spanner is a wrench (http://www.vision.caltech.edu/feifeili/101_ObjectCategories/wrench/image_0028.jpg), I believe, though apparently there is such a thing as a "spanner wrench."

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-09, 10:41 PM
Yes, well we have wrenches in Britain too. A large spanner.

And a 'fag'at Oxford was a junior student who slaved for a more senior one.

Fram
2005-Jun-10, 08:38 AM
Along with other silly words such as "fag", "elevenses", "nappy", "spanner", "brolly", "titbit", "banger", and "loo".


Isn't it a 'tidbit'? A 'titbit' seems a bit weird to me 8-[

Maksutov
2005-Jun-10, 12:39 PM
Along with other silly words such as "fag", "elevenses", "nappy", "spanner", "brolly", "titbit", "banger", and "loo".


Isn't it a 'tidbit'? A 'titbit' seems a bit weird to me 8-[

From The Encyclopaedia of the Celts (http://www.isle-of-skye.org.uk/celtic-encyclopaedia/celt_b3b.htm)
See under "BRICRIU'S FEAST".

WP03013. Alfie (5) offering titbit to Shetland pony. (http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/03013.htm)

Sheringham Community Newspaper (http://www.at-sheringham.co.uk/issue27/page3.htm)
See third paragraph.

British Towns and Villages Network (http://www.british-towns.net/england/cambridgeshire.asp)
See first paragraph under "Ely Cathedral".

That's enough. It's a common usage in the UK.

Fram
2005-Jun-10, 01:14 PM
Thanks! It's just that while I have often come across tidbit, I couldn't remember seeing titbit. I could of course have searched for it myself first, but sometimes laziness gets in the way...

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-11, 12:40 PM
Yes, well we have wrenches in Britain too. A large spanner.

And a 'fag'at Oxford was a junior student who slaved for a more senior one.

Actually I came across another 'fag' yesterday.

I was in my local music shop buying some manuscript sheets when I looked into a cabinet and there was the 'fag.' A second hand one made in Czechoslovakia.

A bassoon, of course..fagotti to the Italiens and generally noted on manuscripts as the 'fag.'

It's the liquorice stick of a classical orchestra with the deep, 'goblin' sound.

My great grandad used to play the bassoon and I always wanted to, but I've never seen one on sale. Plus this one was £1,100.

My credit card (zero balance, £5600 credit available) was half out of my pocket, but I thought I'd just enquire first if I can hire the instrument for a while, because it looked hard to play.

But I'm tempted.

Maksutov
2005-Jun-11, 01:37 PM
[edit]A bassoon, of course..fagotti to the Italiens and generally noted on manuscripts as the 'fag.'

It's the liquorice stick of a classical orchestra with the deep, 'goblin' sound...

Actually the clarinet is referred to as the "licorice stick" in both classical and big band orchestras.

It's easy to see why.

http://img138.echo.cx/img138/6884/clarinet0kx.th.jpg (http://img138.echo.cx/my.php?image=clarinet0kx.jpg)

The bassoon has a different look, one of well-worked, many-shades-of-brown wood.

http://img138.echo.cx/img138/7774/bassoon5nf.th.jpg (http://img138.echo.cx/my.php?image=bassoon5nf.jpg)

It's a difficult instrument to learn. Kudos to your great-grandfather for mastering it! Its sound is very distinctive. Even when the rest of the woodwinds are playing you know when there's a bassoon in there. For some reason, its nickname is "the clown of the orchestra" (http://www.gwynethwalker.com/a-bsnc2.html), probably because of all the humorous music written for it. But it has more potential than that, as can be heard in many works written by Mahler and Prokofiev. Wonderful instrument, as long as you have an ample supply of reed material to cut!

Here's how Mahler used a solo bassoon (the score employs "Zwei fagotte") to kick off the Rondo-Finale of his Fifth Symphony. Wonderful "world awakening from a slumber" music!

http://img161.echo.cx/img161/2182/mahler55bassoons6ks.th.jpg (http://img161.echo.cx/my.php?image=mahler55bassoons6ks.jpg)

BTW, the master of the Big Band licorice stick for me was Benny Goodman. (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/parks/parks.html) For symphony orchestras, it's Stanley Drucker. (http://newyorkphilharmonic.org/meet/orchestra/index.cfm?page=profile&personNum=106)

Richard of Chelmsford
2005-Jun-11, 01:42 PM
Amazed by your prompt and detailed response, Matsukov.

Don't forget Dmitri Shostakovitch's work..notably the 4th and 5th Symphonies.

Plus Archie Leech as a good exponent of the instrument.

Was it Archie Leech??

My credit card is still hovering!

Melusine
2005-Jun-11, 02:42 PM
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s27/smilies-28902.png

Why not talk about Lena Horne or Ella Fitzgerald or some woman in music?

I add Katherine Graham (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/kgraham/010717.kgraham.html), publisher of the Washington Post from 1969-1979 and then Chairman of the Executive Committee until her death in 2001. She was one of the most powerful women in the media, especially during a time when few women held CEO positions.

Maksutov
2005-Jun-11, 04:00 PM
Amazed by your prompt and detailed response, Matsukov.

Don't forget Dmitri Shostakovitch's work..notably the 4th and 5th Symphonies.

Plus Archie Leech as a good exponent of the instrument.

Was it Archie Leech??

My credit card is still hovering!
Yeah, the opening of the third movement of Shosty's Fourth is practically a concerto for bassoon(s) and timpani (go here for an example: this was the premier recording that I bought back in 1963) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000029QE002003/0/103-7263025-4645462). Of course this excerpt starts later in the movement, with a clarinet over the drums! Probably the most Mahlerian he ever sounded (except for the Mahler 5th horn call quotes in the first movement of the Fifteenth Symphony). And the bassoons are really active in the second movement of the Fifth, once again very Mahlerian, with influences from the second movement (Kräftig Bewegt) of the First.

You might be thinking of Alan Leech (http://www.montana.edu/wwwmusic/faculty/aleech.html) re the bassoon. Then of course there's Daniel Smith (http://www.musiciansgallery.com/start/woodwind/bassoons/smith(daniel).htm).

The only instrument I recall Archie Leach playing was bugle in Arsenic and Old Lace. Of course back in his English music hall days he might have played a number of instruments.

That reminds me, the soundtrack of Arsenic and Old Lace prominently features the hymn There is a happy land, Far, far away. This melody was used by Charles Ives in his Third Symphonies, in the second movement. The variations he came up with were incredible, and would have not happened today if the suits had their way.

Also, re Arsenic and Old Lace, ever notice how, in one scene, a headstone behind where Cary Grant is sitting is engraved "Archie Leach"? Grant was a good guy. For instance, he donated his entire salary from the picture, $100,000, to the U.S. War Relief Fund.

Then perhaps you're thinking about Artie Shaw (http://www.artieshaw.com/), the fabulous big band leader and clarinetist who passed away last December. Somewhere I've got 78s of Moonglow and Concerto for Clarinet.

Of course re female clarinet virtuosos, probably the first in the US was Margaret Knitel. (http://www.clarinet.org/fests/2003/Ellsworth.asp) :wink: :)

Gillianren
2005-Jun-14, 12:57 AM
I'm back . . . .

I played bassoon for a while, but never terribly well; my high school band teacher (a drummer!) had, in college, been given the instructions that, should he have a student who wanted to play it, he should ensure that they could afford private lessons. I could, but I was using that amount on viola lessons, given that my school didn't have an orchestra, so I had no other way to play it.

I have been, since watching that thing on Discovery, thinking about my personal definition of the word "great" in reference to people. I find it very, very difficult to apply to anyone still alive, because they can still change their place in history to tragic.

I call living people "great" most easily if they seem to me to be doing more for others than they do for themselves. I'm much laxer in my standards of greatness for the dead. I also prefer to have "great" divided into categories--part of my brain insists that to be a "great woman" is to perform the biological function of a woman (having children and raising them to reproductive age) a lot, like that woman in the Guinness Book of World Records who had some insane number of children, more than 20. however, what we are discussing is perhaps better called "women who were great in their chosen field."

this is my problem with the Discovery Channel list, incidentally--certainly I will accept Clint Eastwood, say, as a great entertainer, but I'm not at all sure that it constitutes being a great American. my . . . well, call her friend; it's close enough, Heather Alexander, is a great entertainer as well, a great songwriter, a great fiddler. (she also has a marvelous stage presence.) none of these are, to me, enough to make her a great American, though she's also a very sweet person as well. it's just not enough. however, were she the sort of person who could fill a stadium, instead of just a set of bleachers at Ren Faire, she might have made the list as well.

to be great, better the life of those around you. women do it as well as men. however, for a very, very long time, they did not do it as visibly as men.