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discovery1
2002-Aug-03, 05:51 AM
The ABC "news" program 20/20 did feature a a article on crop circles. I'm listening to it now and they have so far had only 1 min. 45 seconds of non-beleiver talk, most of which have been for the guy who first made the crop circles. Here is a link:http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/2020/index.html. And John Stossel is, as far as I can tell, a good skeptic.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-03, 07:38 AM
Well what did you expect? Real science?

I think it is likely that product placement, (a movie ad), has been inserted into the nightly news broadcast. Time-Warner, ABC, aren't they all linked someplace. I wonder who produced that movie? I bet if you looked into it....

Most reporters don't seem to be too enlightened. The anchor's conclusion was that since crop circles were around before those 2 guys who confessed to making lots of them were, the earlier circles cannot be explained.

Love that logic. We know how some circles were made, the 2 guys demonstrated how it was done. We know they didn't make all the circles, it wouldn't have been feasible. No other reliable evidence exists for alternative ways crop circles might form. So why shouldn't we believe the other circles were made by other people? Just not the most logical conclusion I guess. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

_________________
For the record, that's Beskeptigal.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-08-03 03:39 ]</font>

g99
2002-Aug-03, 06:17 PM
My question is why would aliens come to some wehat field in the middle of nowhere to draw some simbols? Why not actually contact us? It does not make sense? Also as i said before, why would the government keep this a secret? I would be a great bost to them because people would be more willing to spend money on the military to protect ourselves from them and to the space program to meet other aliens. It would mean more power for the government, so why hide it in some secret files and a big conspiracy?

I also love that a movie about crop circles is coming out the same day as 20/20 shows crop circles. Lets play the connection game!!! "Ok G99 can you relate 20/20 to the movie Signs...You have one minute... Go" "o.k. Lets see... 20/20 is on ABC, which is owned by Disney, which is owned by Buena Vista, Which owns tuchstone pictures, which made the movie SIGNS which just happens to be about crop circles!! YAY!!!! (the sound of one man clapping errupts form the audience.)

"Congradulations you have won a dollar!!!"
"yay i can now buy a Mr. Big bar!!!"

mallen
2002-Aug-04, 12:20 AM
I don't know... Hoodlum aliens running around in a field at night using a board to stomp down patterns in the crops. Sounds reasonable to me.

LunarOrbit
2002-Aug-04, 12:34 AM
I went to see "Signs" last night. I do not believe crop circles are made by aliens, but the movie was fun anyway.

Conrad
2002-Aug-04, 01:06 AM
Ahem.
From what I have read on the subject of Crop Circles: i) there is a natural phenomenon that creates crop circles (tied in with terrain, wind, electro-magnetic energy, vortices, etc.).
ii) Crop circles have been reported in historical terms as far back as C17.
iii) Some rascally fakers in the UK read about i) and ii) and decide to DIY some crop circles of their own.
iv) The media, the curious and the credulous take an interest in iii).
v) Inevitably, someone realises that there is a lot of money to be made from those who believe i) & ii) imply Aliens, Weird Things and Beer From Crop-Circle Barley Gets You High.
vi) Sensible people investigate and the phenomenon collapses into smoke and mirrors.

nebularain
2002-Aug-04, 01:53 AM
Well, I guess showing a 20/20 episode on crop circles just before the release of Signs was better than showing a cheezy made-for-t.v. movie with a similar plot line like they did with the movie Twister.

Maybe.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-04, 09:40 AM
On 2002-08-03 21:06, Conrad wrote:
Ahem.
From what I have read on the subject of Crop Circles: i) there is a natural phenomenon that creates crop circles (tied in with terrain, wind, electro-magnetic energy, vortices, etc.).


vi) Sensible people investigate and the phenomenon collapses into smoke and mirrors.



Which of these numbered items would you be supporting here?

Conrad
2002-Aug-04, 02:06 PM
Ahem!
(I should post *before* drinking lots of beer).
The "phenomenon" in vi) refers to the alleged visitors from Eta Carinae, Theta Reticuli, Nibiru or wherever, and their peculiar habit of travelling x number of light years in order to - vandalise a farmer's field. That other phenomenon still stands. Shoulda called em P1 and P2.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-04, 10:33 PM
On 2002-08-04 10:06, Conrad wrote:
Ahem!
(I should post *before* drinking lots of beer).
The "phenomenon" in vi) refers to the alleged visitors from Eta Carinae, Theta Reticuli, Nibiru or wherever, and their peculiar habit of travelling x number of light years in order to - vandalise a farmer's field. That other phenomenon still stands. Shoulda called em P1 and P2.



In that case, let me say, be skeptical of these supposed facts:

"From what I have read on the subject of Crop Circles: i) there is a natural phenomenon that creates crop circles (tied in with terrain, wind, electro-magnetic energy, vortices, etc.)."

I believe these are hypotheses and wishful thinking on the part of believers. I am fairly certain there is no real evidence to support these claims.

Perhaps a particularly strong dust devil or very small tornado, (water spout size) might flatten some plant growth in a field in a circular shape, but there is hardly any "electro-magnetic energy, vortices" type mysteries in that.

Show me the evidence. (Actually, I'll take the money if you'd rather. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif )

Kaptain K
2002-Aug-04, 11:58 PM
Perhaps a particularly strong dust devil...
I have seen a dust devil pickup and shred a 25 Kg hay bale. When I drove into it, it was strong enough to buffet the 10 ton (empty) dump truck I was driving. It was not strong enough to leave evidence of its passage in the 60 cm tall coastal hay in the field.

Silas
2002-Aug-05, 12:25 AM
On 2002-08-04 19:58, Kaptain K wrote:

Perhaps a particularly strong dust devil...
I have seen a dust devil pickup and shred a 25 Kg hay bale. When I drove into it, it was strong enough to buffet the 10 ton (empty) dump truck I was driving. It was not strong enough to leave evidence of its passage in the 60 cm tall coastal hay in the field.



Agreement. Dust devils don't leave traces... and full-scale Tornados rip the wheat right out of the ground.

When crop circles first appeared, as mere circles of bent straws, I was willing to imagine some form of weather vortex between a mere dust-devil and a full-blown tornado. But the very instant that the "complex" crop circle patterns appeared, I dropped the "Null Hypothesis" like a hot potato.

Silas

mallen
2002-Aug-05, 02:14 AM
Hmm... I'm an Electrical Engineer by profession, and there is nothing that I have learned that would indicate that it is even remotely possible to have an electro-magnetic vortex (except maybe some Star Trek episodes I've seen.)

And even if there was some electro-magnetic mechanism at work in the fields, it wouldn't affect the wheat. Wheat is neither a conductor (conducts electricity) nor is it ferromagnetic (sticks to magnets), so it is pretty much immune to electro-magnetic forces.

If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. Get a loaf of whole wheat bread and a magnet, and see if it sticks.

BTW... I remember seeing some "expert" on TV talk about the electromagnetic vortices. He used dousing rods to show where the residual electromagnetic flow was. Unfortunately, I was drinking something at the time and had to clean the floor because I thought it was so funny.

Kizarvexis
2002-Aug-05, 02:40 AM
The CNN.com poll for Aug 4th was...

"Crop circles...
Signs from aliens?
Man-made hoaxes?"

Out of 80,000+ votes (as of 22:30est) hoaxes had an 80% share.

Kizarvexis

beskeptical
2002-Aug-05, 08:04 AM
On 2002-08-04 22:40, Kizarvexis wrote:
The CNN.com poll for Aug 4th was...

"Crop circles...
Signs from aliens?
Man-made hoaxes?"

Out of 80,000+ votes (as of 22:30est) hoaxes had an 80% share.

Kizarvexis



Gee. This could restore my faith in humanity.

BTW, a water spout type tornado over land, if it touched down just right and retreated quickly, could probably, on an extremely rare occasion, make a swirl on the ground. It certainly wouldn't be common. And, we'd see more of them in Florida than England.

I saw one of these things in Florida. I was close enough to be able to see the column of air distinctly rotating. It was scary looking at first, nothing like a dust devil. After a few minutes it was clear it wasn't a real tornado. Later, I heard these things can toss a boat or car around.

David Hall
2002-Aug-05, 01:53 PM
Another thing about the dust devil/tornado/waterspout idea is that for every one that touches down to make a perfect circle, surely there'd be many that left imperfect circles, ragged tracks or other misshapen marks. But nobody has ever pointed out anything like that.

I'm still not convinced that there's no natural explanation for the small simple circles that first started the hysteria, but nowadays the shapes are way too complex, and many of them seem to be coming from known sources, Mandelbrot sets and spirographs and hearts and flowers. These are almost definitely man-made.

But my big question is, if so many hoaxters are working so hard to create these humungous works of art, and so many people are at the same time searching for the sources of crop circles, why hasn't anyone been caught in the act yet? What about half-finished ones where the hoaxters get nervous and have to scoot before they complete their work? It's only been a major cultural phenomenon for a decade or so, surely someone would have come across a work-in-progress by now.

Mespo_Man
2002-Aug-05, 02:37 PM
There are many other aspects of crop circles that 20/20 never covered.

* Market prices for corn and wheat are depressed. It is a lot easier to give up some acreage for crop circles with these crops then, say, soy beans. "Here's 20 bucks kid. Trample the corn, but stay away from the beans".

* If I were the agricultural minister of an Asiatic country, I would be very put out that the aliens bypssed millions of acres of rice patties to trample a greeting in an Iowa corn field. Oh, but wait. The aliens don't like water, do they?

* What's wrong with the desert Southwest? Or Death Valley or the Bonneville Salt Flats. Any markings carved there would extend well past the harvest season. "Well, as Sheriff of Tombstone, Arizona, I can't tell you how the sand circles were made, but the alien ATV had Goodyear tires."


(:raig

chris l.
2002-Aug-05, 04:22 PM
This crop circle business just illistrates how willing people are to believe the paranornal and pseudoscience, and how skeptical they are to believe real science.

Why is that?


"Every time I learn something new it pushes some of the old stuff out of my brain!" Homer Simpson

Silas
2002-Aug-05, 05:02 PM
On 2002-08-05 12:22, tychobrahe wrote:
This crop circle business just illistrates how willing people are to believe the paranornal and pseudoscience, and how skeptical they are to believe real science.

Why is that?


Drama is more compelling than mere truth. There is an human instinct to want to witness something dramatic.

Also, real science takes a bit of work, whereas pseudoscience is easily available to anyone without having to crack a book. There aren't any equations or terms, just nonsense that sounds scientific.

"Crystal amplification of thought-energy transmitted by vortex modulation."

It's sort of like literary criticism: I can say, "Faulkner's post-modernist visions pre-date Mailer's, but indicate the path that Mailer took when contemplating the centuries' waning mannerism." Since no one knows what that means, it sounds profound (but it really utter nonsense, as I've never read a word of Faulkner nor Mailer -- which is my own loss...)

But in real science, it doesn't work. Try, "The voltage of the electron moves through the wave-form of the grounded circuit." Huh? "Sodium irritates Potassium so that they couple with a radiant vigor." Eh?

This is one of the reasons that Astrology is not a science: I can say, "The warmth of Mars will influence your anger today," and there is no possible way for you to refute it. The statement is completely meaningless. If, sometime today, you get angry, I can say, "See? I predicted that!" If you don't, I can say, "That was simply Jupiter superceding Mars and enhancing your self-control."

Finally, to be wholly and totally fair, this entire post is just me enjoying a kind of "know it all" essay style! It's FUN to write in the style of someone who knows stuff!

Silas

nitefallz
2002-Aug-05, 05:20 PM
On 2002-08-05 10:37, Mespo_Man wrote:
There are many other aspects of crop circles that 20/20 never covered.


* What's wrong with the desert Southwest? Or Death Valley or the Bonneville Salt Flats. Any markings carved there would extend well past the harvest season. "Well, as Sheriff of Tombstone, Arizona, I can't tell you how the sand circles were made, but the alien ATV had Goodyear tires."
(:raig


Hi all, just a newbie here, been lurkin for a few days though. I'm in no way saying that the crop circles are made by aliens or whatever but I do like to play devils advocate.

I'd like to point out that there have been circles found elsewhere other than crops, there's been a few on sands on beaches and in snow but they were simple circular depressions, none of that fancy stuff. I'll see if I can find any links for some info on these.


As for my own beliefs, I honestly have no idea. I'd like to believe the majority are man made but some of them seem to defy that explaination. Also, the corn stalks being bent at a 45 degree angle(is that right) and not being broken, thats possible with the board/string method? What about other anamolies that go along with "real" crop circles? Some of the joints in stems have the appearence of being microwaved(the joints burst from the inside) and apparently some genetic modification/defects/sterlization/seeds being removed and such.

Just for thought /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

David Hall
2002-Aug-05, 06:07 PM
Excellent first post Nitefallz. Welcome to the board.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Aodoi
2002-Aug-05, 06:20 PM
The History Channel also had a special on crop circles this weekend. It was actually pretty well balanced, with a really funny bit in as well. They pulled one of those "are you rolling? You've got to see this" things and ran into a field they were staking out... to find the History Channel logo as a crop circle. They said it took a couple of the hoaxers 4 hours to make the pattern (at their request). They wanted to get the 'H' "just right." /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, after a day long marathon of mostly silly UFO stuff, it was nice to see a bit of mockery. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aodoi on 2002-08-05 14:21 ]</font>

g99
2002-Aug-05, 08:32 PM
Other examples of decorations in the ground are the Nazca lines in south america. They are a intricate series of lines and esignes in the nazca deasert in peru. (Eric vondaniken thinks they are landing strips for space ships. Really stupid idea, but don't get me going there). There are signs of animlas, people, and other geometric objects. Here is asite that states info on them (and dispells some common myths): http://www.skepdic.com/nazca.html

They are reall cool to see from the air, i highly reccomend taking a archaeology class on the history of peru, VERY interesting cultures there. Amazing that so many of them are unknown or left to be forgotten.

There are theories that they lines are star chart for the aliens to follow incase they get lost. Something like the road maps at a roadside rest station. Also there are theories they are the first "crop circles", Landing strips for spacecraft (no wheelmarks, blast from the rockets, ect.) and many other weird theories.

g99
2002-Aug-05, 08:44 PM
If crop circles are so special and they are only made by aliens and unnatural things, how did they make the ones for the movie "signs"?

Hmmm.. Maybe they are not so extraterrestrial after all....
_________________
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2002-08-05 16:45 ]</font>

LunarOrbit
2002-Aug-05, 10:01 PM
Either that or they hired aliens to be technical advisors for the movie. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

To prove that anyone can make a crop circle, I made one using Adobe Photoshop... it's a picture of our good conspiracy buddy Clyde Lewis.

Click here to see it (http://www.execulink.com/~kellyjo/gz-cropcircle.jpg)

Josh_imported
2002-Aug-05, 10:40 PM
On 2002-08-05 18:01, LunarOrbit wrote:

To prove that anyone can make a crop circle, I made one using Adobe Photoshop... it's a picture of our good conspiracy buddy Clyde Lewis.

Click here to see it (http://www.execulink.com/~kellyjo/gz-cropcircle.jpg)


[LOL] Nice. Of course the HB's would see right through this. The shadows aren't parallel. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Josh on 2002-08-05 18:43 ]</font>

mallen
2002-Aug-05, 11:12 PM
On 2002-08-04 22:40, Kizarvexis wrote:
The CNN.com poll for Aug 4th was...

"Crop circles...
Signs from aliens?
Man-made hoaxes?"

Out of 80,000+ votes (as of 22:30est) hoaxes had an 80% share.

Kizarvexis



He he... and in the poll the day before:

Do you think your dog's bark is:
Just a bark ... 17%
An attempt to talk ... 65%
I'm a cat person ... 18%

65% of people think their dogs are trying to talk to them and yet only 20% think aliens are trying to communicate with them through crop circles. The crop circle thing must really be falling out of favor.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-06, 03:17 AM
On 2002-08-05 19:12, mallen wrote:
Do you think your dog's bark is:
Just a bark ... 17%
An attempt to talk ... 65%
I'm a cat person ... 18%

65% of people think their dogs are trying to talk to them and yet only 20% think aliens are trying to communicate with them through crop circles. The crop circle thing must really be falling out of favor.


Ahem...Being that this is an astronomy BB I cannot begin this debate with you. However, you might want to see the show where the Horse Wisperer is communicating with horses. It's not the pet psychic by far. Instead, he has come to recognize a lot of body language between horses that can communicate much more than previously believed.

Research into animal communication is revealing a lot of language we have missed by being too certain our superior brains were far ahead of animal brains instead of just our vocal cords. In other words, we have superior brains but there is probably not as big of a gap between us and some animals. They just use different means to communicate.

Recently someone has determined at least a few distinct barking sounds used by dogs under different circumstances and that they can determine quantity to some extent. They certainly understand some human language even if it is only by association of an event with a sound.

So back to the survey, unless it's clear what is meant by dogs 'talking' then the survey would have given very unreliable results. Did people interpret the question to mean their dogs were communicating or did they interpret it to mean their dogs were trying to speak words?

OneHuckster
2002-Aug-06, 07:18 AM
Oh Joy! Did you happened to see TLC about the Crop Circles? The Kids that did the big pretty one one Chalk Hill showed how they did it! It took six hours and 23 minuets! They planned it and did their practice runs in the college ball stadium! A very good friend has sworn up and down it was done by his Anunnaki friends! Guess this little revelation will just spoil his whole week!

OneHuckster /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

Conrad
2002-Aug-06, 11:15 AM
On 2002-08-06 03:18, OneHuckster wrote:
Oh Joy! Did you happened to see TLC about the Crop Circles? The Kids that did the big pretty one one Chalk Hill showed how they did it! It took six hours and 23 minuets! They planned it and did their practice runs in the college ball stadium! A very good friend has sworn up and down it was done by his Anunnaki friends! Guess this little revelation will just spoil his whole week!

OneHuckster /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif



Quite. But who, what or where is/are "Annunaki"?

mallen
2002-Aug-07, 12:53 AM
On 2002-08-05 23:17, beskeptical wrote:
Recently someone has determined at least a few distinct barking sounds used by dogs under different circumstances and that they can determine quantity to some extent. They certainly understand some human language even if it is only by association of an event with a sound.

So back to the survey, unless it's clear what is meant by dogs 'talking' then the survey would have given very unreliable results. Did people interpret the question to mean their dogs were communicating or did they interpret it to mean their dogs were trying to speak words?


I was just using it to make a joke.

I always thought it was obvious that dogs' barks had different meanings. Dogs yelp when they are hurt, growl when they are threatened, whine when they are chastized, etc. It is not hard to imagine that we missed a few, though to call that "talking" is probably a bit much as there is no solid evidence that dogs can communicate abstract concepts. In any case, as you say, dogs are not astronomy and here is not the place to debate that.

So, back to crop circles:

Prior to this new movie, I have not heard even the faintest mention of crop circles for years (maybe even a decade). Have they stopped appearing, or has the press just stopped caring? If true, what do the "believers" have to say about it?

I expect there would be a correlation between publicity and the number that are made. After all, are you going to spend all those hours stomping wheat just to get a 4th page mention in the Podunk Times?

P.S. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm one of the 80% who clicked "man-made."

g99
2002-Aug-07, 02:38 AM
On 2002-08-06 20:53, mallen wrote:


On 2002-08-05 23:17, beskeptical wrote:
Recently someone has determined at least a few distinct barking sounds used by dogs under different circumstances and that they can determine quantity to some extent. They certainly understand some human language even if it is only by association of an event with a sound.

So back to the survey, unless it's clear what is meant by dogs 'talking' then the survey would have given very unreliable results. Did people interpret the question to mean their dogs were communicating or did they interpret it to mean their dogs were trying to speak words?


I was just using it to make a joke.

I always thought it was obvious that dogs' barks had different meanings. Dogs yelp when they are hurt, growl when they are threatened, whine when they are chastized, etc. It is not hard to imagine that we missed a few, though to call that "talking" is probably a bit much as there is no solid evidence that dogs can communicate abstract concepts. In any case, as you say, dogs are not astronomy and here is not the place to debate that.

So, back to crop circles:

Prior to this new movie, I have not heard even the faintest mention of crop circles for years (maybe even a decade). Have they stopped appearing, or has the press just stopped caring? If true, what do the "believers" have to say about it?

I expect there would be a correlation between publicity and the number that are made. After all, are you going to spend all those hours stomping wheat just to get a 4th page mention in the Podunk Times?

P.S. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm one of the 80% who clicked "man-made."


Ahhh..Then you have not seen the absolutely scientific, NSF funded (ha!) Sci-Fi channel show Sightings! Where their motto is: "We only produce the material of high scientific value, or stuff that makes us money, whichever works best." Almost every week, or every other week they have something on crop circles.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-07, 11:16 AM
Well if you haven't seen anything on crop circles lately that will be remedied soon. What a bunch of junk TV. Not only crop circles on every channel, but there seems to be a heavy "we just can't explain it" theme. I thought the TLC program tonight was getting closer to a sightings show than a TLC show. That is unless their intent was to document peoples' reaction to the things instead of evaluating the circles themselves. Unbelievable, the silly explanations of magnetic vortexes and alien communiques. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Phobos
2002-Aug-07, 11:31 AM
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2002/windmillhill/windmillhill2002a.jpg

They are still being reported. Click here (http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2002/2002.html) for examples.

Phobos

nebularain
2002-Aug-07, 02:29 PM
I saw the TLC program too. I hadn't known that the crop circles were getting more complex. They've turned into works of art! There's a few things I didn't get, though.

1) Why does the guy who creates crop circles that they interviewed believes that it helps the researchers better if he does not point out the ones he did. One would think that the known-human-created circles would make a great "control group."

2) Why are "alien origins" the only explanations offered for the "weird" phenomena - the hovering lights, the electomagnetic effects on the area, the alterations to the plants? Just because it cannot be deterimined yet what the casue is doesn't automatically speak "Alien."

Valiant Dancer
2002-Aug-07, 03:05 PM
On 2002-08-04 18:33, beskeptical wrote:


On 2002-08-04 10:06, Conrad wrote:
Ahem!
(I should post *before* drinking lots of beer).
The "phenomenon" in vi) refers to the alleged visitors from Eta Carinae, Theta Reticuli, Nibiru or wherever, and their peculiar habit of travelling x number of light years in order to - vandalise a farmer's field. That other phenomenon still stands. Shoulda called em P1 and P2.



In that case, let me say, be skeptical of these supposed facts:

"From what I have read on the subject of Crop Circles: i) there is a natural phenomenon that creates crop circles (tied in with terrain, wind, electro-magnetic energy, vortices, etc.)."

I believe these are hypotheses and wishful thinking on the part of believers. I am fairly certain there is no real evidence to support these claims.

Perhaps a particularly strong dust devil or very small tornado, (water spout size) might flatten some plant growth in a field in a circular shape, but there is hardly any "electro-magnetic energy, vortices" type mysteries in that.

Show me the evidence. (Actually, I'll take the money if you'd rather. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif )



Wind shear has been known to cause a crop circle. Completely natural and circular. I've also seen soybeans lay down when a large puddle formed (1 foot depth) for an extended period of time. (2-3 weeks) After the water recedes, the "circle" remains. The "circle" is the dimentions of the puddle. Some times, fields have bowl like circular dents in them. Anything more complex than a circle is man made.

_________________
Valiant Dancer

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Valiant Dancer on 2002-08-07 11:13 ]</font>

nitefallz
2002-Aug-07, 03:11 PM
[/quote]

Wind shear has been known to cause a crop circle. Completely natural and circular. Anything more complex than a circle is man made.

[/quote]

Really? Have any links?

Valiant Dancer
2002-Aug-07, 03:41 PM
On 2002-08-07 11:11, nitefallz wrote:


Wind shear has been known to cause a crop circle. Completely natural and circular. Anything more complex than a circle is man made.

[/quote]

Really? Have any links?
[/quote]

Section III. Downbursts.

http://www.valdosta.edu/~grissino/geog3150/lecture21.htm

Section on downbursts

http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/ATokay/chapter13.html

More information on microbursts

http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/doswell/public_html/microbursts/Handbook.html

David Hall
2002-Aug-07, 04:21 PM
I must admit, whatever their cause, some of these crop circles really are works of art. They're just beautiful.

Come to think of it, that's probably one reason they capture the public's imagination so much.

David Hall
2002-Aug-07, 04:36 PM
Dancer, I'm afraid I see nothing in the links you gave to show that microbursts can cause crop circles. There are a few references to vortex-like movements and the ability to flatten crops, but these don't seem to be definitive. It doesn't mean that clearly-defined circular formations could be created.

Besides, as I pointed out before, even if they could, for every one clean circle there would probably be dozens of malformed shapes.
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Hall on 2002-08-07 12:38 ]</font>

Valiant Dancer
2002-Aug-07, 05:10 PM
On 2002-08-07 12:36, David Hall wrote:
Dancer, I'm afraid I see nothing in the links you gave to show that microbursts can cause crop circles. There are a few references to vortex-like movements and the ability to flatten crops, but these don't seem to be definitive. It doesn't mean that clearly-defined circular formations could be created.

Besides, as I pointed out before, even if they could, for every one clean circle there would probably be dozens of malformed shapes.
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<font size="-1">PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Hall on 2002-08-07 12:38 ]</font>


Yes and there are. It's just that those malformed shapes don't get the press that the circular ones do. It's the circular ones which are "spooky" to the conspiracy minded ones which bring us the moon hoax, Elvis sightings, and alien produced crop circles. Anything with a percieved perfect symatery is percieved to be artifical in nature. Look at cattle mutilations. Those were proved to be actions of scavengers on dead animals. Lack of tracks was traced to either hard ground or rainfall which filled in the tracks with mud. The "perfect" cuts were the sections of the hide which were softest and post mortem gas production which stretched the wounds.

http://anw.com/mutilations/GQ.htm

nitefallz
2002-Aug-07, 05:30 PM
Uhm, its off topic but that link proves that no one has proven the real reason for the cattle mutilations.

informant
2002-Aug-07, 06:11 PM
David Hall wrote:
I must admit, whatever their cause, some of these crop circles really are works of art. They're just beautiful.

Come to think of it, that's probably one reason they capture the public's imagination so much.


nebularain wrote:
I hadn't known that the crop circles were getting more complex. They've turned into works of art!

Maybe some alien race is using our crops for art lessons! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
They started with some crude sketches, but they’ve been perfecting their technique.
Makes more sense to me than spaceship trails or attempts to communicate, anyway…

nebularain
2002-Aug-07, 06:41 PM
Oh, one thing mentioned in the program I forgot to mention:

It was mentioned that some of the crop cicles represent some form of mathematics that we have only recently discovered (so whoever made the crop circle must be a mathemetician, they said), but the program did not explain what that mathematics was, nor how the crop cicles illustrate that (they drew some lines very quickly, but that told the viewer nothing). So, what was that about?

Regarding the wind vortexes, I might be able to believe one circle was made that way, but how would it account for the straight lines and the patterns and many circles in perfect mathematical conformity to each other? That's a bit of a stretch.

Oh - I like the aliens practicing art idea /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif .
_________________
"All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost..."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-08-07 14:43 ]</font>

David Hall
2002-Aug-07, 07:00 PM
On 2002-08-07 14:41, nebularain wrote:

Regarding the wind vortexes, I might be able to believe one circle was made that way, but how would it account for the straight lines and the patterns and many circles in perfect mathematical conformity to each other? That's a bit of a stretch.


I think we're all pretty much in agreement here that anything more complicated than a simple circle is of human origin. The big question is, are the simple circles that started the whole thing also hoaxes, or were there natural forces ast work at the beginning that hoaxters only later copied and expanded on as they became popular.

nebularain
2002-Aug-07, 07:09 PM
On 2002-08-07 15:00, David Hall wrote:
I think we're all pretty much in agreement here that anything more complicated than a simple circle is of human origin. The big question is, are the simple circles that started the whole thing also hoaxes, or were there natural forces ast work at the beginning that hoaxters only later copied and expanded on as they became popular.

Ah! Sounds like a research project /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif . Hmm, what was the first crop circle, anyway?

g99
2002-Aug-07, 07:22 PM
Tonight the History channel is doing a show on crop circles Titled "Incredible but true? Crop circles" It will be tonight (aug 7th) at 8:00 P.M. est

I missed the TLC special, i hope i didn't miss much. It does not sound like i did. Crop circles are definitely beautiful. But my question (i always have a question) is that does it have to be overnight. The biggest "proof" that it was not man made was the fact that some of the very complex designs were mad overnight. Well who says they have to of been made overnight? The local farmer could of made it for himself to get the fame and popularity, the tourist dollars, and to be reimbursed for his crops that he lost. If you can get all of that why not get a few buddies together and over a week create a design that is very intricate and say aliens did it overnight?
Or (i am not a farmer, nor have i ever been on a farm for a lengthy period of time, but i am guessing this...) I am guessing that farmers do not spend every second of their time looking about tbeir fields every day for "crop circle makers" or things that will flatten their crops. So a group of rogue mathmaticians might have a full day or two to create the crop circles. Anyone...Anyone?

Quick Quiz: How was this strange formation made? (Hint: don't always look up for the answer..../phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif But all of you probobly already knew that one.) Is it a crop circle or something more ordinary?
http://plaza.ufl.edu/sandler/cgs/images/circle.jpg

_________________
"The chickens is coming!!!"
"Watch out for falling coconuts!!"
The creationist dogma: "If you can't prove it I must be right"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2002-08-07 15:25 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2002-08-07 21:36 ]</font>

Bob
2002-Aug-07, 07:37 PM
On 2002-08-07 14:41, nebularain wrote:
Oh, one thing mentioned in the program I forgot to mention:

It was mentioned that some of the crop cicles represent some form of mathematics that we have only recently discovered (so whoever made the crop circle must be a mathemetician, they said), but the program did not explain what that mathematics was, nor how the crop cicles illustrate that (they drew some lines very quickly, but that told the viewer nothing). So, what was that about?


Try this: http://www.lovely.clara.net/hawkins.html

mallen
2002-Aug-08, 12:46 AM
On 2002-08-07 14:41, nebularain wrote:
It was mentioned that some of the crop cicles represent some form of mathematics that we have only recently discovered (so whoever made the crop circle must be a mathemetician, they said), but the program did not explain what that mathematics was, nor how the crop cicles illustrate that (they drew some lines very quickly, but that told the viewer nothing). So, what was that about?


Most of them look like the kind of simple geometry that you do with a straight-edge and compass.

Circles with six-way (or 2, 3, or 12 way)designs in them are particularly easy:

1. Stake one end of the rope to the ground and use the rope to measure out the circle.

2. Then, using the same rope, stake one end of the rope at the edge of the circle and walk along the circumfernce until the rope becomes tight (ie measure a chord of length r). Then, mark that spot, stake the rope there, and repeat this process five times. This will mark six evenly spaced locations along the outside of the circle.

3. Be artistic. Once you have those marks, it is easy to make 2,3,6 and 12-way designs.

Ironically, it is much more difficult to make 4,5,7,etc-way designs.

Unsurprisingly, most crop circles (even the most elaborate) seem to be based on this method.



Regarding the wind vortexes, I might be able to believe one circle was made that way, but how would it account for the straight lines and the patterns and many circles in perfect mathematical conformity to each other? That's a bit of a stretch.


In general, wind doesn't bend the stalks over without damage (as the "experts" are always pointing out). It breaks them or rips them out of the ground. To bend them, I recommend careful use of a board to delicately push them down.

nebularain
2002-Aug-08, 02:20 AM
Thanks for the link, Bob. That's some interesting mathematics going on.

Mallen - good thoughts.

g99 - I hope you are teasing, because those are obviously irrigation circles!

g99
2002-Aug-08, 03:41 AM
On 2002-08-07 22:20, nebularain wrote:
Thanks for the link, Bob. That's some interesting mathematics going on.

Mallen - good thoughts.

g99 - I hope you are teasing, because those are obviously irrigation circles!



Rightio!!!! I was just trying to show that some desins in fields can be man-made and be very interesting designs. (They do look cool don't they?) But back to my point. I personally think that many of the intricat designs can be attributed to simple explanations, a sort of Ochams razor type thing. For example the circular fields are described by the watering device traveling in a full circle, so why not build a device that will flatten in a circle in a matter of minutes. With the high number of engineers on this board (im guessing) i bet that in one week you can easily come up with a series of tools and simple machines to make circles and surveying tools to create geometric designs.

Good job nebularain!!

Phobos
2002-Aug-08, 08:36 AM
I think you underestimate the easy of production. Some of the more complicated designs are also very large (eg. the one above spans 4 tram lines - the tram lines are caused by the tractor wheels so you get some idea of scale here).

Being very large can oftain add further complications - mainly that they can oftain be over very uneven terrain. The best suggestion I have heard so far for a tool to assist in construction of the more complicated designs would be a GPS receiver.

More difficult is the problem of construction during the night in poor weather. A large number have been created overnight in the rain. Rain add to the difficulty as the weight of a human would normally leave big depressions in the soil. They could be wearing snowshoes but this would slow movement down a lot (but still possible).

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-08-08 04:37 ]</font>

beskeptical
2002-Aug-08, 10:35 AM
On 2002-08-08 04:36, Phobos wrote:
I think you underestimate the easy of production. ..... The best suggestion I have heard so far for a tool to assist in construction of the more complicated designs would be a GPS receiver.

More difficult is the problem of construction during the night in poor weather. A large number have been created overnight in the rain. Rain add to the difficulty as the weight of a human would normally leave big depressions in the soil. They could be wearing snowshoes but this would slow movement down a lot (but still possible).

Phobos


Are you saying you think they aren't man-made? (So far no ladies have come fwd so I'll use 'man-made' for now.)

There was a contest in England to make the best crop circle designs or something. It was on TLC or Discovery or one of those stations. The 2 Englishmen who admitted making many of the circles have demonstrated their techniques. And, I saw another program where the makers arranged to be filmed at night with time lapse photography while they made an incredibly intricate design. How the circles are made has been well documented.

It is not a mystery. It's only mysterious why the news media would cover the story and leave out the evidence that explains the circles.

beskeptical
2002-Aug-08, 10:49 AM
g99 Quick Quiz: How was this strange formation made? (Hint: don't always look up for the answer.... But all of you probobly already knew that one.) Is it a crop circle or something more ordinary?

I didn't see anyone answer but I'm sure some of us know it's an irrigation pattern from the watering device.

Thanks for the History channel notice. I missed it but both that show and TLC's will probably repeat sometime this weekend.

nebularain
2002-Aug-08, 01:38 PM
I saw a part of the History Channel one. They gave evidence that the more complicated ones are man-made (caught on camera!). Though I'd like to see how they made things like the ones that look like perfect fractals and such like that (that's complicated work!). Actually they said that 80% are man-made for sure. Of the 20% left over, some can reasonably be considered man-made, but definantly quite a number of them cannot be explained as such (no evidence of footprints, no evidence of damage to the stalks like you see with the boards, electromagnetic readings inside the circles). Natural electromagnetic phenomena was used as a possible explanation for the "genuine" crop circles, but I do not believe that has been explained well enough. I would think that if natural electromagnetic occurance are giving evidence in crop fiels, why are they not showing up in other place? What I mean is that inside the circles with that phenomena, instruments go berserk. Why are there not areas where people's electronic instruments are going berserk from electromagnetic activity? This whole thing needs to be explained better, I think. (Make sense?)

g99
2002-Aug-08, 05:55 PM
On 2002-08-08 09:38, nebularain wrote:
I saw a part of the History Channel one. They gave evidence that the more complicated ones are man-made (caught on camera!). Though I'd like to see how they made things like the ones that look like perfect fractals and such like that (that's complicated work!). Actually they said that 80% are man-made for sure. Of the 20% left over, some can reasonably be considered man-made, but definantly quite a number of them cannot be explained as such (no evidence of footprints, no evidence of damage to the stalks like you see with the boards, electromagnetic readings inside the circles). Natural electromagnetic phenomena was used as a possible explanation for the "genuine" crop circles, but I do not believe that has been explained well enough. I would think that if natural electromagnetic occurance are giving evidence in crop fiels, why are they not showing up in other place? What I mean is that inside the circles with that phenomena, instruments go berserk. Why are there not areas where people's electronic instruments are going berserk from electromagnetic activity? This whole thing needs to be explained better, I think. (Make sense?)



I know that if you rub a magnet on a metal object it will "magnetize it" for a little bit. Well as mentoined before on these posts, most of the corp circles have been made during stoms. Will lightning hitting the ground cause the electromagnetic disturbances? It could be pure coincidence that it happens in a crop circle. I bet if they cheked the whole field they will find similar results. It king of makes sense, because the lightning will spread out in a circular pattern on the wet ground, thus causing a electromagnetic circle, right?

Aodoi
2002-Aug-08, 06:18 PM
I know that if you rub a magnet on a metal object it will "magnetize it" for a little bit. Well as mentoined before on these posts, most of the corp circles have been made during stoms. Will lightning hitting the ground cause the electromagnetic disturbances? It could be pure coincidence that it happens in a crop circle. I bet if they cheked the whole field they will find similar results. It king of makes sense, because the lightning will spread out in a circular pattern on the wet ground, thus causing a electromagnetic circle, right? There'd be a charred black area at the center of the strike, wouldn't there? I'm pretty sure the resistance would just make it burn rather than bend in a circular pattern.

Anybody happen to know what a lightning strike in a cornfield (or wheat field or whatever) looks like?

Silas
2002-Aug-08, 07:21 PM
On 2002-08-08 14:18, Aodoi wrote:
Anybody happen to know what a lightning strike in a cornfield (or wheat field or whatever) looks like?


Exactly as noted: a little charred area. You can also find lovely twisting scars down the sides of trees where lightning has hit them.

I have seen photographs of "fulgurites," which are hollow glass-like tubes, wonderfully twisty, that go down into the ground where lightning has hit.

If you do an internet search on "fulgurite," you'll find some lovely photos, although most of them are on-line shops trying to sell samples of them to you. (Worse yet -- ack! ptui! -- I found a "New Age" site where they were selling samples for "communication" purposes. Ick!)

Silas

mallen
2002-Aug-09, 01:07 AM
On 2002-08-08 13:55, g99 wrote:
I know that if you rub a magnet on a metal object it will "magnetize it" for a little bit. Well as mentoined before on these posts, most of the corp circles have been made during stoms. Will lightning hitting the ground cause the electromagnetic disturbances?


While you can cause a piece of metal to be magnetic temporarily by rubbing it on a magnet, crops are not made of metal or anything remotely conductive or magnetic. A magnetic field near a crop would have no effect on it.

There are just so many reasons why a magnetic field couldn't cause a crop circle that I don't even know if I can list half of them:

1) Magnetic fields have no effect on non-ferromagnetic materials (iron is ferromagnetic as well as a few other metals).

2) Magnetic fields don't swirl.

3) Magnetic fields don't have abrupt edges. They decrease in strength as a function of distance out to infinity.

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I can't help cringing when I hear some of these theories. Electricity and Magnetism are very well-understood phenomena, and are not responsible for crop circles.

[Edited to fix typo]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mallen on 2002-08-08 21:07 ]</font>

Peter B
2002-Aug-09, 02:34 AM
Well well!

The 20/20 thing on crop circles just screened here on a morning TV show.

I have to say I was impressed by the true believer who went out and did some experiments, and as a result turned into a skeptic. That's a promising sign.

I wonder if the renewed interest in crop circles is a sign that wheat prices are down, and farmers aren't as upset by losing a bit of their crop...?

beskeptical
2002-Aug-09, 07:44 AM
On 2002-08-08 09:38, nebularain wrote:
Though I'd like to see how they made things like the ones that look like perfect fractals and such like that (that's complicated work!). .... Of the 20% left over, some can reasonably be considered man-made, but definantly quite a number of them cannot be explained as such (no evidence of footprints, no evidence of damage to the stalks like you see with the boards, electromagnetic readings inside the circles). Natural electromagnetic phenomena was used as a possible explanation for the "genuine" crop circles, but I do not believe that has been explained well enough. I would think that if natural electromagnetic occurance are giving evidence in crop fiels, why are they not showing up in other place? What I mean is that inside the circles with that phenomena, instruments go berserk. Why are there not areas where people's electronic instruments are going berserk from electromagnetic activity? This whole thing needs to be explained better, I think. (Make sense?)



Neb, I am surprised to hear this from you. I don't want to get Grapes on my case again for saying any hypothesis other than 'man-made', (with the exception of maybe a really rare weather phenomonon), is junk science, so I will say all hypotheses other than 'man-made', (with the exception of maybe a really rare weather phenomonon), have no real evidence to support them.

The two English guys demonstrated a very complex circle design from conception to completion and it wasn't mysterious nor difficult. They used pogo stick or pole vaulting type travel across the fields to eliminate footprints. That wasn't difficult either.

I think you will find if you look into it that the supposed experts will identify known man-made circles as having all those supposed features like bent stalks. The demonstrated circle I mentioned had that same 'interwoven' pattern that the 'experts' claim is abnormal.

One guy on one of the recent shows claimed the wheat in the circles had all their seeds out of the pods. Well duh! Pick a wheat stalk and wait a day, the pod dries, splits and the seed emerges. That's how seeds are dispersed.

When have you seen a truly scientific exam of these circles? Side by side comparisons of a number of stalks bent by a known, man-made circle that was properly done, and, stalks from a supposed unnatural circle? All you ever see are these circle investigators claiming 'they can tell'.

When have you seen any evidence that these guys that go around measuring electromagnetic fields, (or in the case of ghost hunters, infra red or very sensitive temperature monitors), that these devices actually measure something that doesn't occur everywhere else?

When you use any kind of device or survey tool like a questionaire to measure some data for a study, you must show that the measuring tool is valid for measuring your variable. Some instruments have already been established so you can explain that in your study. But in some studies, you have to first establish that what you are using to measure a variable is reliable.

Then you have to show that the data actually differs from controls, such as a man-made circle. And this needs to be done in a careful systematic way.

All the programs like Sightings show all these modern technological devices but not any evidence as to the validity of the measurements. It is not scientific to accept such nonsense unless you first establish that it isn't nonsense. To see a needle on a gage fluctuate in front of a camera is often presented as some unexplained event, and, more importantly, it's presented as evidence. That is not evidence. It makes the program intriguing and sells ad time. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Don't lose sight of what is evidence and what is nonsense.

nebularain
2002-Aug-09, 08:15 AM
On 2002-08-09 03:44, beskeptical wrote:


On 2002-08-08 09:38, nebularain wrote:
Of the 20% left over, some can reasonably be considered man-made, but definantly quite a number of them cannot be explained as such (no evidence of footprints, no evidence of damage to the stalks like you see with the boards, electromagnetic readings inside the circles).


Neb, I am surprised to hear this from you.
Hee! Hee!
I'm grateful for your thoughts and evaluations. I was bothered by the fact that claims were made about what they considered "genuine" crop circles, but nothing was exponded on about the findings. I like your counter-arguments.

Unfortunately, I doth detect a slight misunderstanding. I was trying to re-itterate what the program said. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I necessarily believed what they were saying, though I do admit a puzzle in my brain over the "mystery" ones (so I'm grateful for your input). Maybe the word "definantly" was a poor choice of words, but I could not recall the word usage in the program, so I just threw some words together and hoped I was conveying the correct image as presented. I appologize for the confusion.

BTW, do you have any thoughts on what may have caused the mystrious lights hovering over the fields mentioned in the TLC program?

Cloudy
2002-Aug-09, 08:35 AM
One other factor....

In my understanding, most of these crop circles have occured in nations with a mostly urban population. "Crop Circle" countries - England, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, etc. also have a well-developed modern farming system.

When people live in cities, they often do not realize just how thinly populated an area farmed with modern agricultural techniques can be. They drive down the freeways and see farmhouse after farmhouse. But they are traveling at more than a mile a minute and rural population tends to concentrate arround freeways. If you were to stand in the middle of a corn or wheatfield, away from towns and highways, the nearest human being may be more than a mile away. I am not kidding. I speak with experience, my grandparents ran a farm in Indiana which I visited frequently.

Even apart from the low population density...

At night, you can get away with doing almost anything in the middle of a field with crop circle type crops, if you follow the slightest common sense. Take a look on the side of the road next time you drive out in the country at night. How far away could you see a person standing in a wheat field? I would guess a hundred feet or so, to be generous. And keep in mind that most people wouldnt even be trying. Your eyes are accustomed to the glare of headlights, you can't see much detail (try it - AS A PASSENGER, PLEASE /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif). You are probably paying attention to the road like you are supposed to anyway. Those same headlights are visible for 2-3 miles away in flat country (again, you can validate this by simple experiment). Long enough for the huckster to dive for cover. And why would you care even if you noticed him anyway, unless you owned the farm? Most people who drive at 2am in the boonies are barflies and night workers, not farmers.

If its a cornfield, the huckster holds even better cards. Unless you have a very high vantage point and can actually see the crop circle in making, you cannot see anyone moving in a cornfield. This fact was used to great effect in the movie "Field of Dreams". Walk into a corn field and you dissapear. period. even in broad daylight.

Suppose our hucksters were dumb enough to go near enough to a farmhouse to be heard gently treading on the ground(let alone wake someone up). What would you do if you were a farmer hearing that sound? Probably nothing, it was the cows, it was the dog. If you get up to look, you turn on the lights and the huckster will dive to the ground(wheat and corn can hide people very easily at night) and your night vision will go byby.

Bottom line.... you cannot detect a circle prankster unless....

1. Your night vision is intact. And it wont be, you have headlights or the light will be on in the house 99% of the time.

2. The huckster has no warning of your watching... and he will, most of the time. He is being very quiet and you will probably have some sort of light arround. All he has to do is avoid attracting your attention and he can get back to his work while you get back to sleep.

3. The huckster is dumb enough to build a circle VERY close to a heavily traveled road or farmhouse. Strange that the vast majority are not.

4. You have a high vantage point to see the circle in making, since the crops in question will usually hide the huckster. Usualy, you wont have such a vantage point. If you do (a 2nd floor window?) your field of view will be very limited - and circles will be far from your mind.

Trying to catch a circle maker in the act is an exercise in futility. There are thousands of square miles of farmland out there, no organization could maintain watch over any but a tiny fraction of this. Some people will take turns watching at night from a high vantage point, but this will not work well. It is much easier for him to spot you then for you to spot him. And once he spots you(and he will look before he even starts the circle), he will move to a better place.

Crop circles are fake. I would bet a considerable ammout of money on that. The myth feeds upon the ignorance of us "city slikers" just like the UFO myths feed upon the ignorance of those unfamiliar with the sky. It is just a common prank. It would only be a bit more crazy to propose that aliens are the ones smashing pumpkins every Halloween.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cloudy on 2002-08-09 04:39 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cloudy on 2002-08-09 04:42 ]</font>

Conrad
2002-Aug-09, 10:10 AM
Ahem.
Earlier, when I mentioned "electromagnetic hoo-ha" what I actually meant to type was "Michael Flatley's Dancing Feet".
No doubt about it. Him and his legions of leprechauns, they're the culprits.

Well, that's as reasonable as Mr Grey from Sigma Aquila gaily trampling the corn.

David Hall
2002-Aug-09, 01:49 PM
I wish I could get some of the crop-circle programs you all have mentioned over here. All I get is the Discovery channel (well, MSNBC and BBCWorld also, but I don't watch them much), and most of the programs are months or even years after they appear in the states. I know it takes time to get these things subtitled into Japanese for local broadcast, but I'm sure I'm only getting a fraction of what you guys are seeing.

I want to see how these crop circles are being made! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

beskeptical
2002-Aug-10, 12:52 AM
On 2002-08-09 04:15, nebularain wrote:
BTW, do you have any thoughts on what may have caused the mystrious lights hovering over the fields mentioned in the TLC program?


Now that sounds more like you. My guess is that they were birds. That's what they looked like to me. And if they weren't, I'm sure the 'lights' were no more mysterious than birds.

Cloudy, I was stuck in a Montana wheat field once in my earlier invincible days hitchhiking with a friend. Those fields are verrry big, I can attest to that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

mallen
2002-Aug-10, 01:21 AM
On 2002-08-09 04:15, nebularain wrote:
BTW, do you have any thoughts on what may have caused the mystrious lights hovering over the fields mentioned in the TLC program?


I've heard that the planet Venus is the most common culprit in UFO sightings.

But, if you are going to go through the trouble of making a crop circle and want people to think a UFO made it, try this:

1. Get a small helium tank and a few white garbage bags.

2. Throw a small light in the bag.

3. Fill the garbage bag with helium.

4. Tie it closed.

5. Let it go.

For a bobbing effect, tie a string to it and bob it up and down.

I'm not sure, but I think I heard of people doing this near Area 51 to cause UFO sightings.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mallen on 2002-08-09 21:23 ]</font>

beskeptical
2002-Aug-10, 07:56 AM
On 2002-08-09 21:21, mallen wrote:
...But, if you are going to go through the trouble of making a crop circle and want people to think a UFO made it, try this:

1. Get a small helium tank and a few white garbage bags.....


When we were kids we made hydrogen balloons from Draino, aluminum foil, and water. At night we sent a big one up with a long fuse. I can't remember exactly what we used but you could see a small light, (the flame), and after it floated for a short distance it burned up. We ran down the block and tried to get the guy at the local gas station to think it was a UFO. But I guess we were too obvious because he didn't fall for it.

I can't believe how many wierd things we did as kids. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sarcastronaught
2002-Aug-11, 08:46 AM
My (silly) theory: The first crop cricles were drawn by humans, but when 'everybody' started going nuts over the patterns, the aliens thought "Hey, that's a pretty cool idea" and copied. They like stirring, those pesky little aliens do...

Conrad
2002-Aug-11, 08:02 PM
On 2002-08-09 21:21, mallen wrote:


On 2002-08-09 04:15, nebularain wrote:
BTW, do you have any thoughts on what may have caused the mystrious lights hovering over the fields mentioned in the TLC program?


I've heard that the planet Venus is the most common culprit in UFO sightings.

But, if you are going to go through the trouble of making a crop circle and want people to think a UFO made it, try this:

1. Get a small helium tank and a few white garbage bags.

2. Throw a small light in the bag.

3. Fill the garbage bag with helium.

4. Tie it closed.

5. Let it go.

For a bobbing effect, tie a string to it and bob it up and down.

I'm not sure, but I think I heard of people doing this near Area 51 to cause UFO sightings.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mallen on 2002-08-09 21:23 ]</font>


From a web-site that I can't remember the address to, the author reckoned that Foo Fighters were French Resistance efforts to baffle the Luftwaffe with aerial balloons. That does him a disservice, actually, because he made it sound quite convincing.

To do the deed in the 80's or 90's, one needed a pair of wire coat-hangers, a candle and a black bin liner. The coat hangers were unravelled and placed in a cruciform pattern with the candle at their central point. The bin liner was held over the candle and it's open mouth attached to the ends of the coat hangers. The candle was lit. Hot air lifted the bag and the flame illuminated the bag from the inside. Voila! One instant UFO, enough material for Charles Berlitz to retire on.

Silas
2002-Aug-12, 12:10 AM
On 2002-08-11 16:02, Conrad wrote:
To do the deed in the 80's or 90's, one needed a pair of wire coat-hangers, a candle and a black bin liner. The coat hangers were unravelled and placed in a cruciform pattern with the candle at their central point. The bin liner was held over the candle and it's open mouth attached to the ends of the coat hangers. The candle was lit. Hot air lifted the bag and the flame illuminated the bag from the inside. Voila! One instant UFO, enough material for Charles Berlitz to retire on.



Grin!

But, please, not during fire season!

Silas

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Aug-12, 12:27 AM
On 2002-08-09 03:44, beskeptical wrote:
Neb, I am surprised to hear this from you. I don't want to get Grapes on my case again for saying any hypothesis other than 'man-made', (with the exception of maybe a really rare weather phenomonon), is junk science, so I will say all hypotheses other than 'man-made', (with the exception of maybe a really rare weather phenomonon), have no real evidence to support them.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

David Hall
2002-Aug-12, 07:35 AM
When I was in junior high my mother bought a "UFO" baloon for us. It was really nothing more than a 5 foot long sausage-shaped black plastic bag with the letters UFO printed on the side. You just filled it with air (we used a vacuum cleaner), tied off the ends and strung it on the end of a kite string. When you put it out into the Sun, the black plastic would absorb the solar energy and heat the air inside and it would float up into the sky. It worked pretty well, and I think the most exciting thing was what I learned about the mechanisms of hot-air baloons and solar radiation. That stupid little toy taught me a lot.

mallen
2002-Aug-13, 12:51 AM
On 2002-08-11 16:02, Conrad wrote:
From a web-site that I can't remember the address to, the author reckoned that Foo Fighters were French Resistance efforts to baffle the Luftwaffe with aerial balloons. That does him a disservice, actually, because he made it sound quite convincing.


Is this it?

http://www.overflite.com/

Phobos
2002-Aug-13, 01:26 AM
If you are interested in scientific studies into crop circles you may find this link interesting;

Crop Circle Scientific Evidence (http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/science.html)

Phobos

Kizarvexis
2002-Aug-13, 02:04 AM
On 2002-08-10 03:56, beskeptical wrote:


On 2002-08-09 21:21, mallen wrote:
...But, if you are going to go through the trouble of making a crop circle and want people to think a UFO made it, try this:

1. Get a small helium tank and a few white garbage bags.....


When we were kids we made hydrogen balloons from Draino, aluminum foil, and water. At night we sent a big one up with a long fuse. I can't remember exactly what we used but you could see a small light, (the flame), and after it floated for a short distance it burned up. We ran down the block and tried to get the guy at the local gas station to think it was a UFO. But I guess we were too obvious because he didn't fall for it.

I can't believe how many wierd things we did as kids. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif



Do you still have plans?

Hee, hee. 34 and still not totally grown up. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Kizarvexis

beskeptical
2002-Aug-15, 10:03 AM
On 2002-08-12 22:04, Kizarvexis wrote:
Do you still have plans?

Hee, hee. 34 and still not totally grown up. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Kizarvexis


Of course. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif For the last three Halloweens we have hung Blair Witch stick people high up in the trees in the park behind our house. So far we haven't gotten anyone to notice them but every year more appear.... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

We had been plotting before the movie to make a crop circle in the grass in a meadow in the park but hadn't carried out the plan. Now I suppose we should wait or it will seem too obvious.

And, I would really like to make a fake UFO to see if we can't fool someone this time. It's no wonder people make crop circles. It is quite fun to fool people. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Hee hee, 48 and I'll never grow up. There's no reason to. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Phobos
2002-Aug-17, 06:04 PM
Just thought I would share this recent crop circle with you;

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2002/Crabwood/crabwood2002saa.jpg

Looks manmade to me but it shows just how complex these things are getting.

Phobos

beskeptical
2002-Aug-18, 10:04 AM
I think the circles in the last few years have become incredibly artistic. I think it's a bit intrusive to damage someone's crop, but if it weren't for that the circles are definitely true works of art in their own right.

Phobos
2002-Aug-25, 01:44 AM
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2002/Crabwood/crabwood2002sac.jpg

The alien and CD crop circle seems to have a message encoded in the circle (CD). After some searching I have discovered that the binary message spiraled into the CD like circle is encoded ASCII which reads;

"Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES.
Much PAIN but still time.
EELRIJUE.
There is GOOD out there.
We OPpose DECEPTION.
Conduit CLOSING [bell sound]"

So the CD is ASCII encoded English. Of course an advanced alien species that was monitoring our society could send a message which would be designed in such a way that we simple humans could decode it, but all the signs seem to point to a manmade source.

However it was constructed the end result is indeed impressive. The following close-up shows that the grey scales were actually created by varying the thickness of the lines (from the ground you would have no idea what the image looks like).

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2002/Crabwood/charlesImage3.jpg

As to my guess how this was created - well I think laser pens and GPS receivers would have helped, but to make something on this scale at night without leaving tell-tale signs of human presence / human error still has me puzzled.

Perhaps the images were somehow created by board military types testing out some new beamed energy weapon.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-08-24 22:02 ]</font>

mallen
2002-Aug-25, 03:32 AM
As to my guess how this was created - well I think laser pens and GPS receivers would have helped, but to make something on this scale at night without leaving tell-tale signs of human presence / human error still has me puzzled.


How do you know it was overnight? It could have easily been done over several days. For the most part corn grows without much supervision.

Also, for something this complex, the easiest solution would be to use surveying tools. They would be more than adequate for the job.

Phobos
2002-Aug-25, 04:49 AM
On 2002-08-24 23:32, mallen wrote:
How do you know it was overnight? It could have easily been done over several days. For the most part corn grows without much supervision.


Perhaps what you say is true in the US where you have vast expansive fields. But in the UK the size of the fields are much smaller. The majority of crop circles in the UK are confined to Wiltshire area. Wiltshire is a relatively small county which is frequently overflown by aircraft from Heathrow airport (the busiest airport in Europe).

During the crop circle season the fields of Wiltshire are constantly monitored from the air and new formations are easily spotted from the air and are usually reported very quickly. Whilst it is certainly possible that some preparation work could be done in advance, it is unlikely that a significant proportion of the work could be done over more than one night (particually with large formations like this one which would naturally attract a lot of attention).



Also, for something this complex, the easiest solution would be to use surveying tools. They would be more than adequate for the job.


The following link contains a report from a professional surveyor from one such crop circle which was created during the daytime;

Stonehenge Revisited (http://www.cropcircleradius.com/Articles/Stonehenge/)

http://www.cropcircleradius.com/Articles/Stonehenge/Images/image1A.jpg


However, I felt it might be useful to sum up some of the geometric information on this majestic crop formation that we have after two years. Dave Probert is a professional land surveyor and went into the field very early to produce his survey with electronic surveying equipment. I am satisfied that this is as accurate a survey as we could have and I base my work on his drawings.

The layout is so complex that I limited myself to the spine and did no work on the "legs". Any circle can be defined by three points on a flat surface and three points will define only one circle. It was therefore logical that, by locating the centres of three adjoining circles in the spine, it would be possible to locate the sequence of centres of the curvature of the spiral. To simplify the location of each center, I drew a square around each of the 35 spinal circles shown on the survey. The main square, number 1, and the twin largest squares, numbers 16 & 17, have their circles shown. (It should be noted that Dave's survey was carried out very promptly. An extra circle, number 36, appeared at the end of the tail after he was finished.)

Now consider this crop circle (http://www.hostileinvader.com/CropCirclesMilkHill.html);

http://www.hostileinvader.com/files/MHCC3.jpg

This is a 787 feet diameter crop circle comprising of 409 circles discovered after heavy rain. It too was examined by a professional surveyor (Vincent Creevey) who said;

I wouldn't know how to go about putting down the circles themselves. From a surveying standpoint, what we'd be looking at staking out would be the center of each circle, the radius point. So, then from there by whatever means, the circle would be flattened from that central point. I can't even venture a good guess as to how long that would take.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-08-25 00:51 ]</font>

beskeptical
2002-Aug-25, 06:31 AM
As to my guess how this was created - well I think laser pens and GPS receivers would have helped, but to make something on this scale at night without leaving tell-tale signs of human presence / human error still has me puzzled.

Perhaps the images were somehow created by board military types testing out some new beamed energy weapon.

Phobos

[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-08-24 22:02 ]

Phobos, you are kidding, right?

Phobos
2002-Aug-25, 07:26 AM
On 2002-08-25 02:31, beskeptical wrote:

As to my guess how this was created - well I think laser pens and GPS receivers would have helped, but to make something on this scale at night without leaving tell-tale signs of human presence / human error still has me puzzled.

Perhaps the images were somehow created by board military types testing out some new beamed energy weapon.

Phobos

[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-08-24 22:02 ]

Phobos, you are kidding, right?


About the beam weapon - well a little. Theoretically you could beam heat to make crops bend, but this it would be highly improbable that this is how any were created.

Most crop circles are certainly created by simple groups of people in fields with boards. The larger circles could just be formed with more people, but I believe they would have needed some technological assistance.

That said the required technology is available. Perhaps a GPS enabled theodylite (not sure of the spelling) combined with simple laser pens (used as straight ine guides without drawing attention). I could also imagine some simple night vision goggles could be used but would probably not be required.

That said there still remains a question mark over the details of a few reported crop circles. Reports of magnetic anomalies, strange effects upon the crops themselves, effects on electronic equipment as seen live on tbe BBC and a very few reports of large formations occuring in short spaces of time are very puzzling if true, but I would always leave open the possibility of mis-reporting.

Phobos

beskeptical
2002-Aug-25, 09:26 AM
Phobos, that sounds so much more rational. Welcome back to Earth.

I doubt there are any 'wierd phenomonon' that can't be explained about crop circles.


That said there still remains a question mark over the details of a few reported crop circles. Reports of magnetic anomalies, strange effects upon the crops themselves, effects on electronic equipment as seen live on tbe BBC and a very few reports of large formations occuring in short spaces of time are very puzzling if true, but I would always leave open the possibility of mis-reporting.

Magnetic anomolies: Have you thought very critically about their detecting devices? Have you seen any real research where the devices' validity has been tested? What is even being measured? Who knows? I've never seen any of the devices used to 'measure' paranormal activity validated in any way.

If compasses really spun in the middle of a crop circle I'm sure we'd have had a 'real' scientific investigation, not just a film of a spinning compass for the news cameras.

The rest of the unexplainable stuff looks pretty unimpressive as well.

David Hall
2002-Aug-25, 09:02 PM
On 2002-08-24 21:44, Phobos wrote:

However it was constructed the end result is indeed impressive. The following close-up shows that the grey scales were actually created by varying the thickness of the lines (from the ground you would have no idea what the image looks like).


Looking at the alien picture above, I would say it's a simple illustration run through a computer to create a line image simulating grey scale, which was then (relatively) easy to recreate in the field.

To my mind, such an obvious and stereotypical alien illustration is excellent evidence that this is man-made. Why would aliens, who have so far limited themselves to egnimatic circles and geometric designs suddenly decide to put down a self-portrait and cryptic message in English?



As to my guess how this was created - well I think laser pens and GPS receivers would have helped, but to make something on this scale at night without leaving tell-tale signs of human presence / human error still has me puzzled.


I admit it boggles the mind as to how they can create all these intricate patterns without leaving some mark, but they must have perfected their techniques by now. I don't think a GPS system would help much though. Doesn't it have an error margin of about 6 meters or so? It could throw things off more than help. Besides, these all began before GPS was even available. I think simple stake-and-line methods would be the most effective, even for large designs. Laser pens might be useful though to help people coordinate in the dark.

johnphilips
2008-Aug-29, 10:02 PM
Hi LunarOrbit, Even i didn't believe the crop circles made by aliens. But I really enjoyed the movie. It seems that people are really believe on real science?

John Philips

Gillianren
2008-Aug-30, 03:10 AM
Welcome aboard, but you do realize this is a six-year-old thread, right?

SkepticJ
2008-Aug-30, 07:10 AM
Welcome aboard, but you do realize this is a six-year-old thread, right?

In the future of the internet, there will be threads revived after centuries have passed.

sarongsong
2008-Sep-03, 02:01 AM
I went to see "Signs" last night. I do not believe crop circles are made by aliens, but the movie was fun anyway.
Hi LunarOrbit, Even i didn't believe the crop circles made by aliens. But I really enjoyed the movie. It seems that people are really believe on real science?Hi John Philips,
If you select "Quote" at the end of a post you want to comment on, you can then add your comment to it before you "Submit Reply", which makes it easier for us to read what you are referring to.
Welcome! :)