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Candy
2005-May-29, 02:01 PM
Indy 500: Patrick's size becomes issue (http://www.startribune.com/stories/694/5429081.html)

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."
You guys are the math wizards. Does Robby Gordon have a legitimate claim? 8-[

ChesleyFan
2005-May-29, 02:38 PM
Jeez. Robby apparently isn't getting enough press this year driving for own team as he was with RCR, so he has to create some controversy of his own.

I'm not sure what NASCAR's rules are regarding total weight of the vehicle, but there are some pretty hefty guys that manage to stay competetive. Then again, stock cars weigh at least twice as much as Indy cars, so maybe a hundred pound difference in driver weight wouldn't be as big a deal over there.

Robby's also assuming that Danica's car will be "dialed in" properly on Sunday. If her car's good, then she'll be good. If it's handling poorly, then any advantage her weight has means nothing.

Metricyard
2005-May-29, 04:03 PM
You guys are the math wizards. Does Robby Gordon have a legitimate claim? 8-[

He might in a small way. Alot of races (not just car races) are won by a few 10ths of a second. 1Mph doesn't sound like much, but probably does give her a major advantage. Weight is a major factor. Have you ever seen a 300lb person racing a horse?


Of course talent also plays a major role.

I have a feeling that she'll be bumped off the track by lap 50.

Guys have such easily brused egos. Of course we won't admit it. :D

SarahMc
2005-May-29, 04:23 PM
If he makes it an issue, then all cars (with drivers) should have to weighed and compensated before the event. That would put him at a disadvantage to drivers heavier then himself.

Maybe he's the heaviest driver on the field :D

Metricyard
2005-May-29, 04:34 PM
If he makes it an issue, then all cars (with drivers) should have to weighed and compensated before the event. That would put him at a disadvantage to drivers heavier then himself.

Maybe he's the heaviest driver on the field :D

Just watching the drivers being introduced, most of them don't look like they weight 200lbs. Some of them don't look they weigh 120lbs.

Seems to me that the driver is just a whiner. Or maybe he just doesn't want to catch any cooties while racing.

Parrothead
2005-May-29, 04:49 PM
The linked to article edited out the last couple of paragraphs


Gordon never planned to race in the Indy 500 this season, choosing instead to focus on his job as owner of a NASCAR team. Gordon had run in the 500 and NASCAR's Coca-Cola 600 on the same day the past four years.

But with his startup team struggling, Gordon couldn't afford to take his focus off NASCAR. He qualified 25th for today's race.

Link (http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2005/05/29/1061529-sun.html)

Yes she has the advantage with weight, however, skill plays a factor as well. I'd question why he brings it up now, there have been women racing at Indy before, why is weight an issue now? Admittedly I haven't paid much attention to the Indy 500 since the IRL/CART split.

Madcat
2005-May-29, 06:27 PM
I can see how it would be a reasonable complaint, but he's presenting it in an unnessecary and childish way. If he feels that the difference in weight between drivers (which I'm sure varies amoung the men too) is unfair, he should argue that something be done to correct this. All the cars weigh the same already, so he could propose that the rules be altered so that the combined weight of car, driver and fuel is the same for each team. Presenting it now makes him look like a jerk though.

Russ
2005-May-29, 06:29 PM
In this line of thinking what he is worring about is the ratio of pounds per horsepower that the engine must move. Ya figure an Indy car weighs about 1000 wet, (car,driver,fuel) and has 1600 hp engine. That means the engine is moving 0.625 lbs/hp. Let's say she weighs 70 lbs. less than he does. Her numbers would be 925/1600=.578 lbs/hp. That's a difference of 0.047 lbs/hp.

I'm not positive but I think that kind of difference would be lost in the noise. The accuracy/precision of the fuel/air ratio being fed to the cylinders, relative humidity, barametric pressure, ait temp., tire pressure, I think those variables alone would make a bigger difference in the car speeds.

The guy is blowing smoke. He's affraid that she's a better driver and is making excuses for why she'll beat him. Wimp!

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-29, 06:34 PM
In this line of thinking what he is worring about is the ratio of pounds per horsepower that the engine must move. Ya figure an Indy car weighs about 1000 wet, (car,driver,fuel) and has 1600 hp engine. That means the engine is moving 0.625 lbs/hp. Let's say she weighs 70 lbs. less than he does. Her numbers would be 925/1600=.578 lbs/hp. That's a difference of 0.047 lbs/hp.

I'm not positive but I think that kind of difference would be lost in the noise.
Seven and a half percent? (.047/.625)

Russ
2005-May-29, 06:51 PM
In this line of thinking what he is worring about is the ratio of pounds per horsepower that the engine must move. Ya figure an Indy car weighs about 1000 wet, (car,driver,fuel) and has 1600 hp engine. That means the engine is moving 0.625 lbs/hp. Let's say she weighs 70 lbs. less than he does. Her numbers would be 925/1600=.578 lbs/hp. That's a difference of 0.047 lbs/hp.

I'm not positive but I think that kind of difference would be lost in the noise.
Seven and a half percent? (.047/.625)

????You are saying 7.5% of the difference or 7.5% of 1000???? The last I checked a half a pound was 7.5% of one pound per hp. A small amount.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-29, 07:03 PM
In this line of thinking what he is worring about is the ratio of pounds per horsepower that the engine must move. Ya figure an Indy car weighs about 1000 wet, (car,driver,fuel) and has 1600 hp engine. That means the engine is moving 0.625 lbs/hp. Let's say she weighs 70 lbs. less than he does. Her numbers would be 925/1600=.578 lbs/hp. That's a difference of 0.047 lbs/hp.

I'm not positive but I think that kind of difference would be lost in the noise.
Seven and a half percent? (.047/.625)

????You are saying 7.5% of the difference or 7.5% of 1000???? The last I checked a half a pound was 7.5% of one pound per hp. A small amount.
Seven percent of .625--I showed you my work.

But it's also seven percent of 1000, too, which is 70 lbs.

The difference is seven percent no matter how you look at it.

PS: This article (http://www.canada.com/sports/auto/indy2003/montrealstory.html?id=37eeee4d-ff84-4237-957f-1acaa6bf1541) describes CART racing rules that require light drivers to add bulk to their machines--and even to compensate during a race, for loss of oil, brake pad, and tire rubber. It allows heavy drivers to remove pounds from their cars.

Bean Counter
2005-May-29, 07:12 PM
I would think that if the guy had a real point, Indy drivers would all be of the same stature as horse jockeys by now.

Of course, he fails to mention that the extra girth of some drivers might give them an advantage in stamina to maintain the strength and focus of driving fast and turning left for five hundred miles.

01101001
2005-May-29, 08:40 PM
Danica Patrick finished 4.

Next highest rookie was 10.

She crashed with about 20 laps to go, on a restart, losing a front left wing, spun around and slid right into the pit row exit. She got repaired and resupplied and wound up leading a few laps with about 10 to go, but she had to be conservative with fuel usage. She was just passed when a yellow went out, and restarted second with just a few to go. I heard she was out of fuel for some of the last lap.

Pretty good, for a rookie.

Lurker
2005-May-29, 10:33 PM
um.... so, if a man loses weight for advantage, that's ok... but if a woman weighs less, that is unfair!! [-(

=D>

Russ
2005-May-29, 11:18 PM
So where did Gordon finish?

jumbo
2005-May-30, 12:13 AM
I believe in F1 the weight of the car is taken into account and at the start of the season drivers are weighed too. The total weigh of the package at the start of the season must be over a given amount. Usually during the rest of the season the car is only weighed but the driver may also be weighed. I believe this came after Tarso Marques lost a fair chunk of weight mid season and may have brought the total weight of his car-driver package below the minimum thus gaining a tiny advantage. It was introduced to stop drivers gaining weight over the winter entering in underweigh cars then crash dieting before the season began.

In open wheel racing short drivers also have an advantage especially in keeping the car cool as their heads dont interfere with the airflow into the car. Ive seen no complaints about this. Gordon may have a small point but it seems rather like complaining for the sake of it. I doubt he'd be complaining if it was he who had the physical advantage.

If IRL does not yet have this rule then sure she may gain a minute advantage that could be easily countered by one of any number of factors. If the rule is not there she can hardly be complained about for any advantage gained which every driver would go for if they had the opportunity.

Parrothead
2005-May-30, 12:40 AM
So where did Gordon finish?

He wasn't racing at Indy, just complaining. Nascar is taking up all his time, now that he is a owner/driver.

01101001
2005-May-30, 01:28 AM
So where did Gordon finish?

With 111 laps to go in the NASCAR Coca-Cola 600, he is 27.

He claims his comments about Patrick were misinterpreted. (http://www.robbygordon.com/artman/publish/article_422.shtml)

The reporter asked me to comment on Danica, and I proceeded to tell her what a good job she is doing in the Rahal Letterman Racing car, and that I felt she was a talented driver with a good chance to win Indy – something I haven’t been able to do in 10 attempts. I also told the reporter that Danica – or anyone else her size (approx. 100 pounds) – has an advantage on any driver that weighs more than her because of the way the rules are written in the IRL. She should and will take advantage of this rule.
[...]
I think Danica Patrick is fast at Indy because she is a good driver driving for the defending Indianapolis 500 winning team. If she wins it will be great for the IRL and for motorsports as a whole. But when the day comes that I get to compete at Indy again, I hope that the IRL will take the driver’s weight into consideration – if not, I’m going on a diet, but I don’t think I can loose the 100 pounds I would be looking for.

Candy
2005-May-30, 03:15 AM
Danica Patrick finished 4.
She's a cutie, too. That's quite an accomplishment! =D>

Wow, I may actually start watching racing, just to cheer for the young lady. 8)

DroneFour
2005-May-30, 06:49 AM
Danica Patrick is the anti-Paris Hilton.

Argos
2005-May-30, 02:27 PM
I was pulling for Danica, the prettiest girl to ever drive a racing car. :)

The accident with Junqueira scared me. In all my years of watching races I´ve never seen someone kissing the wall at that speed. It seems he´ll be submitted to a surgery. Hope he´ll be back on track soon.

kucharek
2005-May-30, 02:39 PM
So do I understand that correctly from this side of the pond? Men do the Indies since ages and now, when a woman begins to compete successfully, this whimp suddenly discovers that not all body weights are equal?
It's always astonishing what great sense of fairness men are suddenly asking for when women are going to get into their domain...

A Thousand Pardons
2005-May-30, 02:55 PM
So do I understand that correctly from this side of the pond?
No, maybe you missed 01101001's post (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=478112#478112) from last night.

Russ
2005-May-30, 05:29 PM
Danica Patrick is the anti-Paris Hilton.

I'm not following your statement. Care to elaborate?

Jpax2003
2005-May-30, 08:02 PM
Danica Patrick is the anti-Paris Hilton.

I'm not following your statement. Care to elaborate?I follow it.

Lurker
2005-May-30, 10:18 PM
Danica Patrick is the anti-Paris Hilton.

I'm not following your statement. Care to elaborate?
I think the suggestion is that Paris Hilton is all the fluff that a woman could have while Danica Patrick would be all the grit and determination that a woman could have...

01101001
2005-May-30, 10:32 PM
I think the suggestion is that Paris Hilton is all the fluff that a woman could have while Danica Patrick would be all the grit and determination that a woman could have...

Patrick has the right stuff.

Lurker
2005-May-31, 03:41 AM
I think the suggestion is that Paris Hilton is all the fluff that a woman could have while Danica Patrick would be all the grit and determination that a woman could have...

Patrick has the right stuff.
This I would agree with... a very impressive showing for a rookie in the Indianapolis 500. That's saying a lot because there have been some very talented rookies there in the past who have been very impressive their first time out. She's up there with the best of the best. I am betting we will hear more from her and that she is very likely to be in victory lane there in the not too distant future. From what I see, she will richly deserve such a sweet victory.

Candy
2005-May-31, 06:03 AM
For all the fathers out there with young daughters, look for a new female role model. Just think, your daughters will want to grow up to be race car drivers. :wink:

captain swoop
2005-May-31, 08:10 AM
What's the point of the Indy 500?
Until this seasons rule changes opened it up again I haven't been a big fan of Formula 1 for a few years but Indy? don't you all just go to sleep? It must be like watching slot cars.

captain swoop
2005-May-31, 08:20 AM
I believe in F1 the weight of the car is taken into account and at the start of the season drivers are weighed too. The total weigh of the package at the start of the season must be over a given amount. Usually during the rest of the season the car is only weighed but the driver may also be weighed. I believe this came after Tarso Marques lost a fair chunk of weight mid season and may have brought the total weight of his car-driver package below the minimum thus gaining a tiny advantage. It was introduced to stop drivers gaining weight over the winter entering in underweigh cars then crash dieting before the season began.

.

Drivers are weighed before and after a race, cars have a minimum dry weight and a n all up weight if I remember. There was contoversy many years ago in the 80s when some drivers were carrying weights when they were weighed in and then losing them before the race to reduce their all up weight to below the minimum. Red Bull racing just finished a 2 race ban for running a 'secret' extra fuel tank which they calimed was essential for keeping the pressure up in the fuel system but the scrutineers decided could be run dry after the start saving several kilograms. It's taken very seriously.

jumbo
2005-May-31, 08:46 AM
It was BAR with the 2 race ban. I was pretty against that ban as it was another case of the FIA changing its mind only once the complaints started. The second tank had never been a secret. FIA scrutineers had seen the tank at the beginning of the season. IIRC even Charlie Whiting the race director for F1 had seen it and OK'd the thing. The marshalls at the race had given it the all clear in parc ferme as well.

That controversy was because BAR was under the impression that that can when weighed had to be operable. i.e. it would actually startup. Their car they claimed required a certain amount of fuel in this secondary tank to run. It may be the case that the car could run for a while with this tank empty but AFAIK no one ever tried it for the FIA to determine if it was possible or not. The FIA decided that the car should be drained of all fuel when weighed. This made the BAR underweight but also inoperable. If they are going to require the solid car to be under a certain weight and all fuel removed perhaps they should require oil to be removed and brake fluids etc or as BAR thought allow the cars to be in working order when weighed. The firm making the component in question has recieved orders for redesigned replacement tanks from several teams now, BAR included. BAR may just be the ones who got 'caught'. BAR accepted the punishment but never accepted they had done anything wrong. The FIA themselves admitted they couldnt prove anywrong doing either but since they couldnt rule it out either they'd apply a ban.

Its one of those grey areas the FIA only bothers to look at once someone (usually one of the bigger teams) complains because they are losing, despite them being fine with it earlier.

captain swoop
2005-May-31, 09:23 AM
:oops:
My Bad, I meant BAR.

It's nothing new, back in the 70s Lotus used to get their car banned after the first race of every season when Fararri complained about whatever the new innovation was. You knew that by the next race everyone had whatever it was. Remember the first wings? ground effect? monocoq construction? They got them thrown out of Le mans a few times as well.

jumbo
2005-May-31, 10:24 AM
Lotus did bring about lots of innovations and unsurprisingly complaints from competitors whose cars were lacking.
The most recent major example if this syndrome i recall is McLarens brakes. In 98 they could brake asymetrically. Most of the teams had tried to adopt a similar system to varying degrees of success. Williams version apparently nearly worked Mclarens was spot on and gave them an advantage and ferraris didnt work at all. A few complaints later and the system was banned. Rumours continue for much of the season that some teams that called for the ban are running a split braking system. Some TV pictures seem to show something odd but by then the FIA no longer cares and its not looked into.

The complaints and bans do seem almost comical. Teams complain a system is unfair whilst trying to develop their own version of it or exploiting an equally little loop hole in the rules.

Charlie in Dayton
2005-Jun-02, 06:30 AM
I was pulling for Danica, the prettiest girl to ever drive a racing car. :) ...

With all due respect to Ms Patrick, I present positive proof disputing that statement. (http://www.subiegal.com/images/me/about_jamie_thomas.htm)

Jamie's a cutie, she is...and she likes to play in the dirt...

captain swoop
2005-Jun-02, 08:09 AM
There have been a few female F1 and WRC drivers. Their main problem tends to be strength and stamina not driving skills. I remember seeing a prog about Damon Hill training out of season, he did hours in the Gym and had a special rig that was designed to do neck exercises and simulate the 'G' forces on his head.

Lurker
2005-Jun-02, 06:03 PM
I was pulling for Danica, the prettiest girl to ever drive a racing car. :) ...

With all due respect to Ms Patrick, I present positive proof disputing that statement. (http://www.subiegal.com/images/me/about_jamie_thomas.htm)

Jamie's a cutie, she is...and she likes to play in the dirt...
Hmmmm with all due respect, I would like to see more evidence presented on both sides before I make my decision in this matter!! :-k

Argos
2005-Jun-02, 06:12 PM
I was pulling for Danica, the prettiest girl to ever drive a racing car. :) ...

With all due respect to Ms Patrick, I present positive proof disputing that statement. (http://www.subiegal.com/images/me/about_jamie_thomas.htm)

Jamie's a cutie, she is...and she likes to play in the dirt...
Hmmmm with all due respect, I would like to see more evidence presented on both sides before I make my decision in this matter!! :-k

hmmm... Now you got me. Both are Pretty drivers (I never thought I´d be saying this about a racing car driver :-? )