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Maksutov
2005-Jul-07, 11:32 AM
The Yahoo! news story as capsuled:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/79/yahooshuttle1bu.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yahooshuttle1bu.jpg)

Then the actual story, without the sensationalized capsule:

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20050706/sc_space/lastshuttleflightmadecloudsoverantarctica)

How's that for accuracy in reporting?

Methinks the capsule writer must have just finished watching the Star Trek TNG episode Force of Nature (http://www.epinions.com/content_185498504836).

:roll:


BTW, there's got to be something ironic about a country singer named "Urban". :D

NEOWatcher
2005-Jul-07, 12:14 PM
The Yahoo! news story as capsuled:
SNIP
How's that for accuracy in reporting?
SNIP
Oh my gosh, we cant have all that water vapor in the air, it's just not natural. #-o

gopher65
2005-Jul-07, 12:34 PM
NOOOOO! Not water vapor! Save us!

Glom
2005-Jul-07, 02:14 PM
Clouds were detected on the other side of the world and they blame the Space Shuttle?

See what we have to deal with?

Maha Vailo
2005-Jul-07, 02:25 PM
I think Glom said it best. I mean, it's just water vapor, gimme a break!
:roll:

BTW, aren't there been some people who're concerned about the possible damage to the ozone layer shuttle flights might cause?

- Maha Vailo

Argos
2005-Jul-07, 02:30 PM
NOOOOO! Not water vapor! Save us!

It is darn good at warming the atmosphere.

Could anybody explain how the plume made it through the Intertropical Convergence Zone and the circulation cells of the Southern hemisphere without dissipating?

DoktorGreg
2005-Jul-07, 02:36 PM
Better yet, if you follow the links at the end of the article, there is one about civilian airline contrails and their link to global warming. Shades of chemtrails.

ToSeek
2005-Jul-07, 03:05 PM
BTW, aren't there been some people who're concerned about the possible damage to the ozone layer shuttle flights might cause?


Yes. (http://www.leftwatch.com/archives/years/2002/000072.html) (WARNING: you might not want to read this link on a full stomach.)

Glom
2005-Jul-07, 03:07 PM
Helen Caldicott! I remember her. :lol:

Ilya
2005-Jul-07, 03:31 PM
Helen Caldicott! I remember her. :lol:

The most repulsive thing about Helen Caldicott is that for all her woowoo-level anti-nuke stance, she never had a bad word to say about Soviet nuclear reactors. At least not until Chernobyl, and not much even then. It is not so much nuclear power she hates, it is Western power.

publiusr
2005-Jul-07, 06:59 PM
Sadly true.

bad novice
2005-Jul-07, 10:44 PM
So far, the space shuttle has destroyed 10 percent of the ozone.
Now that explains why i'm all sun burnt :lol:

Jorge
2005-Jul-07, 11:05 PM
Well, what do they want nasa to build?
A H2O power super rocket that can run on 1l of water?

(would be cool though)

2005-Jul-08, 12:07 AM
The Yahoo! news story as capsuled:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/79/yahooshuttle1bu.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yahooshuttle1bu.jpg)

Then the actual story, without the sensationalized capsule:

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20050706/sc_space/lastshuttleflightmadecloudsoverantarctica)

How's that for accuracy in reporting?

Methinks the capsule writer must have just finished watching the Star Trek TNG episode Force of Nature (http://www.epinions.com/content_185498504836).

:roll:


BTW, there's got to be something ironic about a country singer named "Urban". :D

Interesting ... if shuttle launces are a significant cause of noctilucent clouds (as this story suggests) then there should have been a marked decreased in cloud sightings in the last few years. That does not seem to be the case from the sightings posted at http://www.nlcnet.co.uk/

Toutatis
2005-Jul-08, 10:42 AM
While the claims of deleterious meteorological & O3 layer implications are, of course, nonsense --- I seem to recall some concern (a few years back) Re: a mission carrying a payload containing sufficient quantities of Pu-238 to produce a global radio-toxicological disaster should failure of the shuttle disseminate even a scant fraction of said load (or compounds thereof) as coloidialy suspended particles (i.e. contaminate of the atmosphere with a Pu-238 aerosol) --- While I've no doubt countermeasures & precautions were in place (e.g. 'hardened' containment of said material, etc.) one is, nonetheless, overwhelmingly tempted to question the responsibility of such missions...?

I apologize that (for lack of memory of specifics) I cannot cite my source, and, indeed, I may have my 'facts' all wrong (I merely recall a lot of 'hand-wringing' in regards to the matter in broadcast and print media) --- Perhaps a resident 'STS historian" will help me out here??? :D

Best regards
Dan Sarandon

2005-Jul-08, 11:40 AM
While the claims of deleterious meteorological & O3 layer implications are, of course, nonsense --- I seem to recall some concern (a few years back) Re: a mission carrying a payload containing sufficient quantities of Pu-238 to produce a global radio-toxicological disaster should failure of the shuttle disseminate even a scant fraction of said load (or compounds thereof) as coloidialy suspended particles (i.e. contaminate of the atmosphere with a Pu-238 aerosol) --- While I've no doubt countermeasures & precautions were in place (e.g. 'hardened' containment of said material, etc.) one is, nonetheless, overwhelmingly tempted to question the responsibility of such missions...?

I apologize that (for lack of memory of specifics) I cannot cite my source, and, indeed, I may have my 'facts' all wrong (I merely recall a lot of 'hand-wringing' in regards to the matter in broadcast and print media) --- Perhaps a resident 'STS historian" will help me out here??? :D

Best regards
Dan Sarandon

That was Cassini and the concern was not just with launch but also the Earth flyby. Obviously NASA took great precautions to try to ensure that even in the event of an accident the Pu-238 could not be dispersed. One discussion of this can be found at http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/cassini/rtg.html and this site links to a page with a number of links to other sites, pro, con, and neutral.

Cl1mh4224rd
2005-Jul-08, 09:51 PM
Better yet, if you follow the links at the end of the article, there is one about civilian airline contrails and their link to global warming.
The effects of contrails have been detected, although claiming a "link" to global warming seems a bit much...
Climatology: Contrails reduce daily temperature range (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v418/n6898/abs/418601a_fs.html&filetype=) [abstract] (Nature)
Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040428061056.htm) (ScienceDaily)

Glom
2005-Jul-09, 10:23 AM
Climatology: Contrails reduce daily temperature range (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v418/n6898/abs/418601a_fs.html&filetype=) [abstract] (Nature)

Three days is hardly conclusive, especially when the continental United States had an high pressure region over it for those three days. Classic causal fallacy.


Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040428061056.htm) (ScienceDaily)


They write it like they're very sure. That's an interesting amount of certainty given that the IPCC themselves state the level of understanding of aviation induced cirrus is "very low". Further, solar activity can also be attributed to this upturn is temperature. Attributing it all to a single cause is not very scientific especially when understanding of these causes is very low.

Maksutov
2005-Jul-09, 11:00 AM
While the claims of deleterious meteorological & O3 layer implications are, of course, nonsense --- I seem to recall some concern (a few years back) Re: a mission carrying a payload containing sufficient quantities of Pu-238 to produce a global radio-toxicological disaster should failure of the shuttle disseminate even a scant fraction of said load (or compounds thereof) as coloidialy suspended particles (i.e. contaminate of the atmosphere with a Pu-238 aerosol) --- While I've no doubt countermeasures & precautions were in place (e.g. 'hardened' containment of said material, etc.) one is, nonetheless, overwhelmingly tempted to question the responsibility of such missions...?

I apologize that (for lack of memory of specifics) I cannot cite my source, and, indeed, I may have my 'facts' all wrong (I merely recall a lot of 'hand-wringing' in regards to the matter in broadcast and print media) --- Perhaps a resident 'STS historian" will help me out here??? :D

Best regards
Dan Sarandon

That was Cassini and the concern was not just with launch but also the Earth flyby. Obviously NASA took great precautions to try to ensure that even in the event of an accident the Pu-238 could not be dispersed. One discussion of this can be found at http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/cassini/rtg.html and this site links to a page with a number of links to other sites, pro, con, and neutral.
As someone who worked on those RTGs (quality assurance), all I can say is Kaku and his minions were off the deep end on this one. I'd still say that even if they hadn't tried to blockade my access to work numerous times.

Toutatis
2005-Jul-11, 05:55 AM
Many thanks for the responses to my inquiry 'IMO' and 'Maksutov'! --- I'm looking forward to following-up this history, as it were...

Generally speaking I have no major gripe with STS so long as its role is that of a 'springboard' -- as opposed to a program in and of itself... While in full apprehension of the 'infrastructural necessity' of same - It is my opinion that manned satellites - whether reusable [STS] or otherwise [ISS, Mir, Skylab] don't qualify as the sort of space programs likely to fire the requisite sense of imagination, discovery and adventure (are they to garner/hold public interest - and, hence, survive.)

Best regards
D. Sarandon

Doodler
2005-Jul-11, 09:25 PM
Ah yes, that lethal Dihydrogen Oxide....

Heeeheeheeheeeheeheeehee

jnik
2005-Jul-19, 07:22 PM
NOOOOO! Not water vapor! Save us!
It is darn good at warming the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is already optically thick at the water absorption lines. The reason we're more concerned about carbon dioxide is that it isn't thick at those lines.

tracer
2005-Jul-19, 11:11 PM
I seem to recall some atmospheric measurements being made in the U.S. in the wake of the 11-Sept-2001 terrorist attacks, when all commercial air traffic had been temporarily grounded.

According to what I read/heard, the lack of all those airliner contrails that normally cris-cross the continent resulted in significantly (i.e. detectably) cooler weather, since less atmospheric water meant less of a Greenhouse Effect.

Obviously, the Space Shuttle's main engines don't produce as much water vapor as hundreds (thousands?) of airliners all flying at once, but the contribution of an STS launch can't be totally negligible.

tracer
2005-Jul-19, 11:14 PM
Better yet, if you follow the links at the end of the article, there is one about civilian airline contrails and their link to global warming. Shades of chemtrails.
Woops -- I didn't notice this posting before I made my post above. :oops:

Here's the article DoktorGreg is referring to:
http://www.livescience.com/environment/050126_contrail_climate.html

The article's upshot seems to be that airliners should cruise at lower altitudes to reduce contrail formation. Never mind the fact that cruising at lower altitudes causes more atmospheric drag, which means the airliner has to burn more fuel, which means it will emit more carbon dioxide in its exhaust! :evil:

Jorge
2005-Jul-19, 11:32 PM
just a question, what if they fly in extreemly high altitudes? like spaceship one did?