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View Full Version : How did Londoners survive the Blitz?



Sticks
2005-Aug-04, 02:24 PM
With out the aid of services like this (http://www.7julyassistance.org.uk)

A further addition to the councilling industry :-?

in the good (?) ole days, you just got on with life. [-X

captain swoop
2005-Aug-04, 03:24 PM
You hid in a hole or got blown up

many people suffered trauma and psychological problems until their dying day after living through the blitz. Don't believe all that stiff upper lip, all pull together nostalgic glow.

For a start the crime rate went throguh the roof, robbery, bank rqadis, burglery and protection rackets thrived in the dark of the blackout chaos and lack of police.. Just recently there was an interesting documentary about crime in London through the war. 'Mad' Frankie Frazer (noted for pulling out teeth with his gold plated pliers and delivering electric shocks to the gonads on behalf of his bosses the Richardson brothers in the 50s) told how he deserted along with a bunch of others and returned to London and had the time of their lives, founding the gangs that controlled the underworld in the post war years.

electromagneticpulse
2005-Aug-04, 04:00 PM
People worry about red meat making your chances of getting bowel cancer 3 times higher (or some nonsense) but they still drive to work every day, which is infinitely more likely to kill them but they don't stop driving to work. It is plain hypocrisy, the london bombings gave a 1 in a million chance of you being the victim and people are worried about being in the next terrorist attack, for crying out loud panic city or what, I'm more likely to die choking on my cereal in the morning and Iím rarely up in the morning eating cereal.

People should be more worried that if you see 1,000 people in a day, in a years time 1 of them will be dead through an accident, normally not their own fault. We're going to counselling over the wrong problems, friends and families have a legitimate reason but everyone else personally I have to say is a cry baby. Sorry if this offends people but it is the cold hard facts, I remember reading an article that 127 (or there about) americans died from a toilet in one year. Generally people standing on it and falling off, but are we afraid of the toilet now?

Gillianren
2005-Aug-04, 06:39 PM
okay, so you don't think that people who were in the subway or on the bus and survived might want someone to talk to about it for a while? you don't think the friends and relatives of those who died might want someone to talk to for a while? I think one of the greatest medical developments of the last twenty years is increased acceptance of psychological counseling for those who aren't mentally ill. I think most people could stand to go into therapy in times of severe stress, simply because they can stand the hour of lying on a couch (well, I always sat on it) and talking to someone who isn't going to change the subject.

electromagneticpulse
2005-Aug-04, 07:20 PM
okay, so you don't think that people who were in the subway or on the bus and survived might want someone to talk to about it for a while? you don't think the friends and relatives of those who died might want someone to talk to for a while? I think one of the greatest medical developments of the last twenty years is increased acceptance of psychological counseling for those who aren't mentally ill. I think most people could stand to go into therapy in times of severe stress, simply because they can stand the hour of lying on a couch (well, I always sat on it) and talking to someone who isn't going to change the subject.

I never said family and friends shouldn't go as they have a legitimate reason and I said that, I did forget to mention the indirect victims on the train who suffered no physical harm but severe stress.

I don't however feel that people who aren't even indirect indirect victims have a reason to go to counselling, if anything they should be going there to stop them playing the victim because it just sounds like an attention seeker to me. The victims are victims not people who've only seen it on TV and it shouldn't make any difference to them as it is only on the TV. No one worries about suicide bombings in Israel or places so why should I as a northerner have a panic attack over something that happens in London.

Victims have a reason and families and friends are classed as a victim, but anyone else shouldn't have such a dramatic reaction to something that isn't even as bad as an airliner crashing.

Sticks
2005-Aug-04, 09:19 PM
The councilling industry is so invasive that you get a situation where a school is only allowed to put on a competitive sports day, if there is councilling available for those who did not win.

:roll:

hhEb09'1
2005-Aug-04, 09:56 PM
People worry about red meat making your chances of getting bowel cancer 3 times higher (or some nonsense) but they still drive to work every day, which is infinitely more likely to kill them but they don't stop driving to work.That's just not true. For one, it's definitely not "infinitely", and it's not even "a lot" higher. In "fact", driving to work is not that dangerous at all, with reasonable precaution.
Sorry if this offends people but it is the cold hard facts,I disagree.

electromagneticpulse
2005-Aug-04, 10:16 PM
Well if bowel cancer was more likely to effect people then car accidents. Why on average does something like 90,000 pedestrians get injured by a car every year when they aren't even driving them. Bowel cancer if you get it is more likely to kill you but is still extremely rare, except there is a death on a road over a field from my house almost every month. Usually it's a 3 car pile up that happens and then there's a few months and then another one happens.

Personally I see a lot more deaths from car accidents and not many people in the area get bowel cancer.

hhEb09'1
2005-Aug-04, 10:20 PM
Deaths from cancer don't usually happen in the next field over :)

electromagneticpulse
2005-Aug-04, 10:24 PM
Deaths from cancer don't usually happen in the next field over :)

They do here, we cart them off. It's a maternity ward not a cancer ward, when will people learn [-X

Seriously though, the hospital doesn't get many bowel cancer cases as I remember one of the doctors complaining after a warning about red meat came on the news. If fish in fish & chips count to fatty acids then that might count, but I think it counts more to unessential fatty acids rather than the essential ones.

Bob
2005-Aug-04, 10:35 PM
Annual deaths in the US:

Auto accident - 44,000

Colorectal cancer - 57,000

electromagneticpulse
2005-Aug-04, 10:38 PM
Annual deaths in the US:

Auto accident - 44,000

Colorectal cancer - 57,000

Wow really? We have good bowels.

captain swoop
2005-Aug-05, 08:01 AM
I have never understood this 'stiff upper lip' show no emotion mentality. Better to go mad than tell someone about it rubbish :evil:

enginelessjohn
2005-Aug-05, 09:59 AM
An anecdotal story...

My wife's grandmother lived in London through the blitz. She was born around 1930 and wasn't evacuated. She has a story of having to run through the streets during an air raid with one of her brothers although I can't honestly remember the reason why.

The upshot of this is that to this day she is afraid of loud noises. Thunder makes her hide in cupboards. She never had any councelling, partly as it was never there, but people from her social background never went to coucelling anyway.

Stiff upper lip is not the way to deal with things.

Cheers
John

captain swoop
2005-Aug-05, 11:30 AM
My Grandad was in the Trenches in WW1, After a bad barrage and a gassing he had a breakdown and was sent back to afiled hospital with 'Shell Shock' after a couple of weeks he was sent back up the line again.

The first thing they did was give him a 'tot' of Rum, drinking it after that gave him 'flashbacks' he would go crazy, didn't know where he was and started fighting everyone, the only way to calm him down was to address him with his old rank and number. He used to wake up in the night shouting and screaming until his dying day.

Good old stiff upper lip, be British

Sticks
2005-Aug-05, 12:26 PM
Thanks to the councilling industry we have had:


False Memory syndrome
People "encouraged" to relive events that were best forgotten
More people encouraged to think of them selves as traumatised victims for minor inconveniences and set backs, the previously mentioned school sports day comes to mind ....
Thus Diminishing the experiences of those who have really been traumatised
More cost added to business, as they are expected to pick up the tab, for fear of litigation
Providing opportunities for ambulance chasers
Discreditation of genuine therapies

It is also worth of note, that just about anyone can set them up as a councillor, with questionable qualifications if any.

We have dedicated qualified professional who go through years of training in order to handle genuine cases, but the councilling industry has opened a flood gate to every Tom, Richard and Harry who can get a copper nameplate made up and then set up.

Until there is proper regulation then the councilling industry will not be seen as credible, and just an excuse to waste resources.

hhEb09'1
2005-Aug-05, 01:33 PM
Annual deaths in the US:

Auto accident - 44,000

Colorectal cancer - 57,000

Wow really? We have good bowels.What are your statistics?

PS: I'm seriously doubting Bob's auto accident stats. They seem high. I'll check

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2005-Aug-05, 02:10 PM
It has been shown that if people have a little bit of therapy immediately following an emotionally traumatic incident the likelihood that they will later develop PTSD is greatly reduced. That is why most police and fire departments now require Critical Incident Stress debriefing following a shooting, disaster, or other significant incident. Doing so has cut down on alcoholism, marriage break up, and other psychologically related problems.

This also works in the general population. By teaching people how to appropriately deal with an emotionally traumatic experience as soon as possible after the incident, it is often possible to avoid years of maladaptive behavior. In this case, it is not just the people who were directly effected by the bombings who should have access to counseling. The randomness of a terrorist attack tends to cause a greater level of emotional trauma among non-effected people than other disasters. That is the whole point of terrorism. Therefore, the offering of counseling services to the general public is a very good idea.

How did Londoners survive the blitz? I am sure some did quite well. However I suspect that it could be found that a good many others didn't. They likely drank excessively, had nightmares, beat the wife and kids, or killed themselves. Those are the more typical behaviors which frequently result when trauma is not addressed.

Captain Kidd
2005-Aug-05, 02:13 PM
Annual deaths in the US:

Auto accident - 44,000

Colorectal cancer - 57,000

Wow really? We have good bowels.What are your statistics?

PS: I'm seriously doubting Bob's auto accident stats. They seem high. I'll check
From the NHTSA website (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.f2217bee37fb302f6d7c121046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a 0c_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201 046108a0c_viewID=detail_view&javax.portlet.begCach eTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token&itemID= b0d9a91eab275010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&overrideV iewName=PressRelease):
Highway fatalities in the US:
2004: 42,636
2003: 42,884
A steady decline since 1966: 50,894

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2005-Aug-05, 02:25 PM
It is also worth of note, that just about anyone can set them up as a councillor, with questionable qualifications if any.



That may be the case in the UK, but in the USA most states have rather strict licensing standards.

hhEb09'1
2005-Aug-05, 02:39 PM
From the NHTSA website (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.f2217bee37fb302f6d7c121046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a 0c_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201 046108a0c_viewID=detail_view&javax.portlet.begCach eTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token&itemID= b0d9a91eab275010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&overrideV iewName=PressRelease):
Highway fatalities in the US:
2004: 42,636
2003: 42,884
A steady decline since 1966: 50,894Thanks!

My Britannica almanac shows 43,788 for 2001, which may be the figure Bob was using. The almanac points to www.cdc.gov/nchs (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs)

For some reason, I was thinking it was in the high 20s, but that's still ballpark as far as the discussion goes.

Sticks
2005-Aug-05, 04:51 PM
That may be the case in the UK, but in the USA most states have rather strict licensing standards.

I can not speak for the US, but I vaguely remember that a TV programme looked at this problem of people setting themselves up as "councillors" with no training and registring with a list that did not check credentials.

In order to do this they got Bernard Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Manning) to register as a equal opportunities councillor or something along those lines. IIRC 8-[

Gillianren
2005-Aug-05, 06:17 PM
it is, in fact, possible to check one's therapist's credentials, of course. now, since my last few therapists were provided free of charge by one school or another's health services, I didn't spend a lot of time at it, given that I couldn't afford to spend money on anyone else. but any decent therapist will be more than happy to show you their credentials, understanding that many people have trust issues.

I will admit that there can be and are abuses of the counselling system, and that there can be and are people who take it to extremes. however, I must strongly disagree that past traumatic experiences should be "left alone." if you ignore it, it does not go away, and the problems it causes persist.

example: my father died when I was six. I remember almost nothing about the week he died; I'm probably blocking the memories. (yeah, I know, and I was six.) however, I have a vivid memory of wandering aimlessly around the house during the reception after his funeral, being ignored on the assumption that I didn't know what was going on. (also because I wasn't as cute as my cherubic, 2-year-old sister.) because of this, I have abandonment/invisibility issues.

okay, sure, they haven't gone away because I know this. however, because I know this, even though the memory is painful, I can usually observe my own behavior to know that I'm acting in a less-than-healthy way because I think everyone's ignoring me, and I can stop doing it. if I didn't have that painful memory, I doubt I'd be able to. this is no excuse for planting false memories, gods know, but certainly there is a great deal of merit in uncovering true-if-painful ones.