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stephanie_dukie
2003-Jul-17, 05:48 PM
OK, with a simple yes or no answer, and setting aside anything "proven" or not, in your heart of hearts:

Do you believe in Aliens?

By Aliens I mean little intelligent life forms that could communicate with us.

Im not talking worms or bacteria or anything like that, im talkin little green,gray life forms!

No technical stuff here yall, IE: planets to hot or cold to support life etc.....

My answer is no

Arramon
2003-Jul-17, 07:19 PM
i would have to say that i am too minial to even attempt to answer that one...
i could not say either way...

yes... its possible, given the amount of space out there...

and no... its probable, but highly unlikely, given the amount of space out there =)

...ask again in about 50 years =)

I DO hope that there are!!
But, i doubt that they are the little green/gray men that people have been stuck on for the last 50 years... the whole abduction thing...

i envision there being creatures of far more intelligent life than we are.. in forms that we may never comprehend.... who;s to say that the images that we receive from space don't contain life forms in them already?

...thast the good thing about life..... its neverending and always changing and becoming new things...

. ..-={Arramon}=-.. .

Fraser
2003-Jul-17, 07:24 PM
My answer is also no. But I believe the search for life is very worthwhile, perhaps the second most important task that humanity can dedicate itself to.

The most important task would be to seed the Universe with life if we don't find any out there. Can you imagine the cosmic tragedy if life appeared in one place in the Universe and the guardians of it ended up ruining everything?

There's irony.

Josh
2003-Jul-18, 12:39 AM
I belive there must be some other intelligent life out there, somewhere!

I'm not one of these alien abduction types. I doubt aliens have been here. But the universe is big. REally, really, really really big. Teeming with Super clusters of galaxies, each with millions or billions of clusters of galaxies each. within each of these are more x-illions of galaxies with more illions of stars alll potentioally with their own solar system. The likelyhood of Earth being the only planet to start up this amazing phenomenon of life is, in my opinion, very lowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

(and I think that should read "self proclaimed guardians" :P )

Bjarne
2003-Jul-18, 04:00 PM
Ok Stephanie, I guess I'll have to go stand in front of a moving bus for this one so sorry in advance! ;)

Life? Intelligent life? :huh: Define that one someone. Before we get too carried away :D , we need to be sure of our definitions. No I don't mean trekkie terms, but what IS life and intelligence? As a fer-instance, we humans are carbon-based. What happens if we meet a crystaline life form?

As for there actually BEING life, much less intelligent, out there... Sorry but I'd have to say that likelihood is so low it won't even register on anything. Sorry but unless there's solid PROOF. Ain't gonna happen.

Angstrom
2003-Jul-18, 04:50 PM
So much for "simple yes or no answers"....


yes

Guest
2003-Jul-18, 05:03 PM
i believe in bacteria and stuff but not yet in small beings
they may not be small and they may not be beings at all :? :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

Aldo
2003-Jul-19, 04:36 PM
We have no proves of anything yet. If we are able to communicate with extreterrestrial intelligent creatures by radio signals in the near future, then we must take as reference the years light which the signal will be travelling through. A civilization beyond our system should be no avanced enough than us and they should be entering into the "radio" world. There is an interesant article in Seti about this and it is a good argument (sorry but I am lazy to do the serch for it).

However, we can't expect an intergalactic society will become more or less than us. There are several elements which are the consequences of our evolution. Different states are able to other worlds and dimentional areas, able to create other forms of life.

Grey or green... maybe but red and blue too. However the final result can be other. Perhaps will become the only intelligent organism from the Universe, the scientists and ambassadors, or the conquerors..!

But Yes! I believe there is something out there, even zones where humans will lose sanity...

Anyway we are still looking for intelligent life over here...

kashi
2003-Jul-21, 09:02 AM
There are two possibilities. Either this planet contains the only intelligent life forms in the universe, or the universe has intelligent life in two or more locations (if it exists in two locations then I think we can assume that it is not a mere anomaly and that it is common throughout the universe).

There are theories (but very little actual hard evidence in the scheme of things) to support both possibilities. All we can do is speculate, and perform calculations such as the drake equation which is based on variables which we can only estimate from our limited observations.

Kashi

Aldo
2003-Jul-22, 05:53 AM
Yeah, I am agreed with that. I think our speculations will prepare us for anything out there. Our calculations are still limited but with the time I think humans will be able to biggest deductions. The crusade is just beginning and there are many to discover.

It is important to keep the search. But if you look with a phisolophic eye, seeing the supernova reactions, asteroids, all the gravity force impulsing everything, the black holes, thermonuclear reactions into the sun, planets in moviment, etc, I think we are in presence of a very bizarre form of life who acts by own will...

J.C
2003-Jul-22, 03:58 PM
The universe is so damn big, i don't believe we are the only creation

Beardo
2003-Jul-22, 07:55 PM
If there is some kind of creation force behind it all, I believe the creation of man alone is a total waste in this huge universe. So my answer is a question; Why should man be the only "intelligent" being in the universe? What makes us so special? I think most people are afraid of discovering that universe is teaming with intelligent life and we, humans, are just on the starting point of our civilization and its possibilities. Which in it self makes us rather insignificant compared to other more developed races. That's humanity's largest fear to find out.


Have a nice day! :D

John
2003-Jul-22, 07:55 PM
I believe there is inteligent life in the universe. SETI has not found any but lack of evidence is not evidence there is none. We may be using the wrong methods to search, looking in the wrong direction, or they just dont use RADIO. They WILL find us but they may may be so far ahead of us that they do not think MAN is an inteligent life form.

PSmith
2003-Jul-22, 08:00 PM
The sheer weight of numbers of stars in the universe raises the chance of the existence of habitable planets (even by our limited understanding of what that may mean) and that in turn increases the possibility, if not also the probability, of intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe. The problem of our not having heard from them can be explained in one of three ways. First, we have and didn't know it; second, the vast distances preclude direct communication, and third, they are too highly evolved (or insufficiently evolved) to find us of any interest.

I vote yes: I am with the optimists in this matter. -_-

David Baird
2003-Jul-22, 08:29 PM
Yes I beleive there are Aliens amongst us.
Cats, Bananas and the leaders of some war mongering countries, surely Humans would seek peace and not this disruption.

Bananas have no seeds and are a very strange fruit indeed.

Cats well look at them funny wee eyes and all.

There are some other pretty strange forms of life around too, which seem to me to have come from somewhere else.

Adrian
2003-Jul-22, 10:20 PM
At nearly 13 billion years old, the universe has many more stars than the individual grains of sand on our planet, and it would do us all-knowing humans well to realize that we exist at the end of that thirteen billion years.
In this infinitely old universe the possibilities past and present are immeasurable in their infinite promise.
We now know that planets abound throughout space and the chances are that no two will be exactly the same. A one percent difference in our planets metallic core might have created a vastly different environment to the one we now have, and so it is easy to assume that life in whatever forms might exist in this vast and old universe, are therefore much different to us. The universe is not in the habit of making exact copies of all it creates.
We point our telescopes around our sector of the galaxy in the hope that we might receive signals from intelligences using the same technology as ourselves – some hope. Technologically, we are newbie’s. In the next thousand years it’s quite likely that our race will discover and discard another thousand much different and more effective means of communication. In fact, its more than possible that distant alien races that might one distant day be within the range of communication, are at present just too far advanced at for us to even receive them, or recognize their signals if we did.
Earth is one of those cosmic grains of sand orbiting a star in a galaxy that is just one of many billions of those galaxies that fill our universe. That life exists here, suggests that life, intelligent or otherwise is common throughout the universe.
We are not alone, and we must not expect communication that might take many thousands of years to reach its destination to be easy. What answers lay out there in the depths of space await future generations – those with a far greater technology and understanding of our universe than that which we presently possess.

Cheyenne
2003-Jul-22, 10:25 PM
Yes!
Like Ellie in the movie Contact says: If not, it's an awful waste of space!

N3373H
2003-Jul-22, 10:50 PM
Are we so arrogant to believe this vast universe is here solely for us to observe? When we are gone then so too will the universe be gone? How can there be anything to observe if there are no observers. It would be an incredible tragedy if the entire universe hung by the thread of human existence. I think life exists in all shapes, sizes and sentience. In fact if the universe is truly infinite, then anything that can be imagined can exist. :blink:

being
2003-Jul-22, 11:05 PM
"If there isn't, then it's a terrible waste of space"...Carl Sagan, "Cosmos"

The Drake Equasion is the best evidence, or theory any human has contrived to validate the existence of other 'intelligent' life forms. Intelligence is based on the assumption a life form has an awareness their existence, and pursue creative challenges through analytical problem-solving.

Of course there is other intelligent life in the universe. If we're the only ones...this is definitely a big waste of space. :blink:

StarmanXavier
2003-Jul-23, 12:07 AM
YES. I believe that it is not only arrogant but also foolish to think that this small waterworld we live on is the only source of life in the universe. ;)

Aldo
2003-Jul-23, 12:35 AM
Actually, without the knowledge of the limits of the Universe it IS a hard quest to find out a single form of life, intelligent or not. However we must be prepared for anything. Even we must think what is an intelligent form of life. I mean to create a electronic tool doesn't make you more intelligent than a person who has no contact with actual technology, you are a real perseptive one indeed! But intelligent is the ability to deducte the situation, learn from mistakes, and learn and learn and learn.
If there are aliens with enough abilities to utilise science, technology, etc, as we are doing or better than us, so there is a chance to meet them in a distant day or they get in contact with (if they are brave enough considering our wild spirit :-) ). However its culture could be too different from us. Maybe they want to be alone and they are not bound by curiosity as humans. There are many factors which are result of our actual evolution, I think the posibilities to find out a civilization like us is small. I think there are more posibilites to find out other kind of cultures, totally different from us, totally un-humanoids... Our speculations must be open to the most incredible ideas, why not? Cosmos can break all rules!
Carl Sagan said it. Our perseption is a consequence of our landscape and our imagination comes from what we have in mind and see all day, etc, etc.

What do you think?

Edit: Profanity deleted - Matthew

Viv
2003-Jul-23, 05:37 AM
Its two fold, if there is intelligent life out there, i think we should have heard from them by now. The Universe being infinite who knows. Id like to think that there is. :rolleyes:

Aiz
2003-Jul-23, 06:32 AM
To think that out of the zillions/gazillions of stars & planets out there, our little dirt ball is the only one jam-packed with trillions of life-forms, while the rest of the universe is an empty void.... is the ultimate definition of "arrogance". This neighbourhood is so damn big, if a neighbour were to send us a greeting, it probably won't reach us till the Sun dies. Not hearing the "Hello" doesn't mean they aren't there.

Just look at your own neighbours - you haven&#39;t spoken to them since you moved in, doesn&#39;t mean they dun live there. <_<

Decimal
2003-Jul-23, 08:07 AM
Its hard to say Yes or No to Aliens...but im slightly confused...if a star is a couple of million light years away, and waves and rays travel at the speed of light, isnt everything we are seeing millions of years old? And if anyone stopped to think how old the human race it could be a possibility why we have never contacted or been contacted by an alien race...
I could be wrong of course...

My opinion: Yes - Aliens...I beleive humans are a genetic experiment by Aliens and they started us off on a remote planet and let us go like a new breed of animal in the wild

cyberwolf
2003-Jul-23, 08:29 AM
Hy.

My humble opinion is YES, there must be other inteligent life forms in the universe. I read a lot of theories about different kind of life forms, the one that i liked most was that there are billions of forms of lifeforms in the universe, carbon based (like us), sillicon or crystal based, and also pure energy life forms.

Anyway, as another member said, who can define life and inteligence, it may be different for every civilization.
Who knows, maybe the universe itlesf and the contained galaxies are a different kind of lifeform :D

Anyway, i remember that a scientist has been asked about the posibility of other life forms existing on other planets, and he replied :
"We are very selfish if we believe we are the only inteligente life form in the Universe" :P

P.S. sorry for not sticking to simple YES or NO B)

itsmebaby76
2003-Jul-23, 01:59 PM
B) I&#39;m enjoying reading these responses. For as many opinions there are out there, there are probably as many alien species in just our GALAXY contemplating the same question.

I saw a documentary once that discussed the option that other worlds would be developing simultaneously to ours; not differing too much in the level of technology it takes to communicate with or travel to other solar systems. By some design, that would mean we could all communicate when we are "ready."
Someday we will reach that maturity.

rodonnell
2003-Jul-23, 02:04 PM
To answer the question,

The answer has to be "OF Course &#33;".

To address the larger question, as phrased by other respondants,

In short, "all things are possible".

Including:, Little green men, after all look at the abundant phyisical variations of life on just one planet, ours. Given a few more million years what could dogs , chimps, rats, cockroaches evolve into, help them along with a little enforced mutation, say from a nuclear war or pollution and al things are possible.

Do not tell me that it is physically imposslbe to travel here, as people interested in science we should understand sopme of the histopry of science, Scientista has told us for hundreds fof years what is possible and what is imposible only to have a younder new scientist prove them wrong, where there is a will there is a way.

Considereing "Aliens" to be of too high a standard to be malicious to Earthlings, when does scientifica abilituy ad moral development go hand in hand. Even within our own species we have seen the technologically evolved exploit the less developed races, slavery, Africa, south america, it goes on.

FOr all those who wish to put a scientific look at it cnsider the "Drake Equation"

Frank Drake, 1961
The equation is usually written:
N = R* • fp • ne • fl • fi • fc • L

Where,

N = The number of civilizations in The Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable.

R* =The rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life.

fp = The fraction of those stars with planetary systems.

ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life.

fl = The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears.

fi = The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges. For more information, please visit Dr. William Calvin&#39;s "The Drake Equation&#39;s fi"

fc = The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.

L = The length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.



Cheers

Aldo
2003-Jul-23, 02:55 PM
Thanks Rodonnell for your explanation&#33; I was familiar with the Drake Ecuation but not in a deep way.
However there is pointed "ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life". How do we know what is a good enviroment for life? Anything like our planet? Why? Why not a different area? I think if we think a good enviroment needs oxygen, etc. then that is a good enviroment from our needs, but what happen if an alien eats lithium to say something...
I guess other aliens are able live in other enviroments not too simlar to Earth. I mean it is not fair to think the only special enviroment for life is one like ours.

I don&#39;t know that is my interpretation from that past of the ecuation. I guess so ideas change since 1961.

lilandpeter
2003-Jul-23, 03:39 PM
[B][FONT=Times][SIZE=7]

Aliens? eh? You don&#39;t have to look into &#39;&#39;&#39; outer &#39;&#39;&#39; space to see the kinds of
alien life forms available........just take Prof. Ballard&#39;s deep diver and see the
magnificent forms in the Ocean depths; many of the them totally new and alien
as we know life on a terrestrial world.
Consider then, these possibilities: 1. A form of life which takes its energy from
the &#39;&#39;dark energy&#39;&#39; that seems to be in the majority. It is even accelerating the
universe. 2. What makes us think that this universe/
cosmos is the only one in existence? Parallel universes are a possibility in which
presumably there MUST be life if it mirrors ours.
3. In that case put all of the above together,
and we have a parallel, dark energy universe which mirrors ours............
so my answer is: YES :ph34r:

Aldo
2003-Jul-23, 05:14 PM
Totally agreed about parallel planes. There dark areas in Cosmos indeed.
But I don&#39;t if we can think about "alienigenic" creatures the ones who can find in the extreme zones of our planet, after all they belong to our home.

But totally agreed with parallel Universes&#33;

tddyno
2003-Jul-23, 10:19 PM
My common sense tells me that out of the number of stars in the universe there has to be another intelligent lifeform. If they are advanced enough to travel that far then they are probably advanced enough to keep from being seen. So you may never see proof.

imported_lonestar
2003-Jul-24, 05:29 AM
Sure I believe there are Aliens out there somewhere, we can&#39;t possibly be the only forms of life in the endless space out there. I doubt there ever come to earth though.

cyberwolf
2003-Jul-24, 07:24 AM
Hy.

lilandpeter reminded me of a show on the Discovery Channel, where they showed a few "alien" creatures (from our own planet) that dind&#39;t need any oxigen. Think of those white crablike things that live on the edge on underwater geizers, there&#39;s no oxigen there, only sulphur, so that means that not all life needs oxigen.

Also, in another TV show they showed that most bacteria is not harmed by a meteor impact, i mean, if the bacteria would end up in space and crash into a planet, the heat and G forces alone would not destroy them, so it raises the question, did life start on our planet or this planet was simply "infested" by some sort of bacteria that in time evolved in all the living creatures you see (and some you don&#39;t see) that inhabit this world.

Anyway, the ideea is that there are so many misteries about life, that we can&#39;t be shure what is the definition of life, so who knowes how do alien lifeforms look like.

Techno
2003-Jul-25, 07:24 AM
:rolleyes: Yes ----- well assume Man the sometimes Wise can know the answer &#33;
Whilst I somehow know there are no KLigons or Vulcans in my immediate space everytime I dip into Star Trek ------ I know that complexity and scale of the Universe means Big Green "men" probably have evolved elsewhere&#33;

And this can be and is so scary to the average educated human that he will need to say "NO&#33;&#39; to the proposal in case he or she may meet one &#33; Forget the perfectly acceptable argument as the real premises&#33;&#33; The person who says No here is really just afraid of the unknown when he already "just knows" there is intellegent life out there in the Cosmos.

Although I have been wrong often before - I suspect that I too an afraid of the Monsters ---- and someday soon human beings may meet some of these&#33; And I am really saying I want to have the No position in my arsenal of response but I "just know" there are unknown intellegent living species somewhere right now &#33;
:o

Bill AH
2003-Jul-26, 12:11 AM
The simple answer is yes.

If you want more see my post in the previous topic (Are we the only form of consious life?).

kashi
2003-Jul-27, 10:13 AM
Life as we know it also needs carbon or silicon (because only carbon and silicon can form 4 covalent bonds). Carbon has a lot of advantages over silicon too. There also needs to be some kind of surface in order for there to be complex life forms. There must be a solvent of some kind (not neccessarily water, although it has many advantages over all others, such as melting/freezing/boiling temperature, and the fact that it expands as it approaches freezing point so that ice forms on the top of a body of water). There are a few others that I can&#39;t remember of the top of my head. I recommend reading a book called "worlds unnumbered" by Donald Goldsmith. It&#39;s about the search for extrasolar planets, and there is a whole chapter on the probability of intelligent life existing in the universe.

I don&#39;t think our galaxy is swarming with life. Perhaps there are another half a dozen civilisations our there.

Kashi

TwAgIssmuDe
2003-Jul-27, 07:27 PM
My answer is yes, I mean the thought that we are the only ones in the universe is quite scary.

I believe there is alien life out there, it doesn&#39;t have to be the klingons or vulcans. I would be even suprised if they found green slime on europa or other places in the solarsystem than earth.
Our world may not be technically advanced to travel to other worlds or prove there is alien life out there, but that doesn&#39;t stop me from believing.

kashi
2003-Jul-28, 01:47 AM
Stephen Hawking gave a speach at the end of the cold war saying how the greatest single danger humanity faces is the threat of nuclear war (which is fair enough considering that Russia and America still have enough nukes pointed at each other to kill every living organism on the planet several hundred times). He said that there&#39;s a sick joke going around that says maybe the reason why we haven&#39;t been contacted by alien civilisations is that most civilisations tend to destroy themselves when the reach our stage&#33;

Scary stuff.

Kashi

Bill AH
2003-Jul-29, 12:32 AM
That is a scary thought, but I sure would like to believe that there are some advanced races out there with enough wherewithal to survive this stage and advance to the next, which hopefully is some form of planetary peace.

Jim Hawkins
2003-Jul-29, 09:54 AM
maybe they are as small as viruses out there
but we couldnt have been the only creation. i dont think they will reach us cuz the cozmos is so incredibly spacious and we are spread out evenly with lotsa space between.
i dont think aliens are like those i horror fiction alien movies.
dwarf-like, maybe.
thats why they cant reach us fast.
theyre puny

Thank-U-Sun
2003-Jul-30, 07:11 PM
There is no way that earth is the only planet with "intelligent life". I think that some people’s religious beliefs are getting in the way of this question. Yes there is life on other planets. Yes some are intelligent and yes some are not. All in time we will finally prove this. I only wish to die knowing that we are not alone.

Tinaa
2003-Jul-31, 07:23 PM
N=R*fs*fp*ne*fl*fi*fc*L

R is the average rate of star formation in the galaxy, equal to about 20 stars per year (i.e. recent HST observations of M16 showing star formation sites).

fs is the fraction of stars that are suitable suns for planetary systems, approximately 0.1 (most stars belong to spectral type M and are probably too small, whereas a few, such as O and B stars, are too short-lived). The circumstellar disk around Beta Pictoris is evidence of planetary formation.


fp is the number of suitable suns with planetary systems, now thought to be around 1/2 (i.e. 51 Pegasus discovery), a value that has made scientists optimistic about the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the galaxy


ne is the mean number of planets that are located within the Continuously Habitable Zone (assuming liquid water is necessary for life)

fl is the fraction of such planets on which life actually originates (given enough time primative organic substances will be synthesized into DNA and RNA, recent detection of the amino acid Glycene in the ISM by radio observations)

fi represents the fraction of such planets on which, after the origin of life, some form of intelligence arises (evolution probably occurs wherever life arises, and intelligence has survival value

fc is the fraction of such intelligent species that develop the ability and desire to communicate with other civilizations (they construct radio telescopes or laser systems)

L is the mean lifetime (in years) of a communicative civilization (because it depends on the NATURE of the race of intelligent beings it is the most uncertain factor in Drake&#39;s Equation)

WWW.seds.org/~rme/drake.htm

This page will allow you to enter your own numbers.

As far as religious beliefs go, I think God could make any creature live anywhere in the universe. The human race is nothing special.

kashi
2003-Aug-01, 04:18 AM
Maybe we humans are not the most highly evolved beings on this planet in the sense that there are species&#39; with greater endurance (eg. bacteria might out-survive us in the event of an asteroid impact, and bacteria are less likely to destroy themselves in a nuclear war).

Going on what Professor Hawking said, perhaps humans are an evolutionary dead-end, and that all we can hope to find "out there" are microscopic organisms.

4stix
2003-Aug-01, 05:35 AM
Yes, why not keep our options as widely open as possible. I was looking at the night sky over the last few nights here in NZ and I&#39;ve never seen so many stars and planets. The nebula array is simply breathtaking... and I can see only a flyspeck of the Universe.
While I do respect the opinions of those who can use scientific theories to &#39;prove&#39; the optimists &#39;wrong&#39;, I recall Pasteur&#39;s &#39;germ theory&#39; (still used by pharmaceutical companies to push all sorts of noxious crud) being shown to be false a few years ago. It may take a few years, a few million years, or maybe tomorrow even, but I think we&#39;ll make verifiable contact sometime (if we don&#39;t wipe ourselves out first).
One last thing; someone mentioned bananas being &#39;strange fruit&#39; without seeds... bananas are actually herbs and they do have seeds, some non-commercial varieties are still grown this way as opposed to the commercial practice of grafting and so on.

Evil Steve
2003-Aug-01, 10:52 PM
Another Kiwi here with more on Bananas. The edable variety is a genetic mutation and has no seeds because mutations are invaribly sterile, they only survive because people find them so tasty.





Oh and on life in the universe. The potentiality for life is so varied there must be some somewhere, why not?

Evil (It&#39;s life Jim but not as we know it)

come on someone had to.

Fraser
2003-Aug-06, 08:14 PM
Welcome to the Universe Today forums Evil Steve and 4stix. Keep on postin&#39; :-)

rahuldandekar
2003-Aug-07, 11:18 AM
I think that there is life in the universe, due to two reasons :

(1) Firstly, I is simply idiotic to suppose that we are the only form of life in a universe with a billion galaxies , each with a billion stars.

(2) Secondly, that WE are made up of carbon and oxygen doesn&#39;t imply that
life forms cannot be made up of other things (silicon, maybe ,we are close to doing it on our own planet)

I hope you agree with me.

Arramon
2003-Aug-07, 03:12 PM
Yes, i do, and will leave it at that =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

kashi
2003-Aug-07, 10:57 PM
Perhaps life isn&#39;t as abundant as we might have thought. Great article:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...B81809EC588EF21 (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0009CDEA-33FC-1C74-9B81809EC588EF21)

Also rahuldandekar, I think that silicon based life would be much less likely to exist than carbon based life, as carbon atoms form more compounds and share much stronger bonds, making carbon based substances more resistant to temperature etc.

Kashi

SteveT
2003-Aug-08, 07:22 PM
Yes, that&#39;s a good article. BUT, there are a few things Campbell either glosses over or doesn&#39;t mention in his short overview.

On the negative side, though he does point out that the fact that it took so long to get beyond unicellular life on Earth indicates that multicellular life may be hard to do and uncommon, we can also see that we are obviously the only technological species. There seem to be several other species with some degree of intelligence and self-awareness on Earth, but none of them, not even our extinct hominid ancestors, have developed the ability to use abstract symbols and language anywhere close to homo sapiens. This may indicate that this particular type of intelligence, presumably necessary to technology, may be uncommon even where otherwise intelligent, self-aware life is common.

On the positive side, though Campbell does point out that if there were other civilizations, Earth would almost certainly have been visited by now, he seems to neglect to consider that :
1. Such a civilization would necessarily be very advanced compared to where we are now (likely measured in hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years), and
2. We have not really considered how such a very advanced civilization might behave, or even how we could recognize it if it was right in front of our faces.

We can only wildly speculate on behavior, but we can place some rough limitations on recognition. For instance, if you were to hand a chimpanzee a banana and a digital watch, which would the chimp likely find more interesting? Maybe if the "digital banana" could do something like make more bananas if manipulated correctly you could get the chimp&#39;s attention, but if it just told you the exact date, time in all zones, etc., and didn&#39;t look edible, I doubt it. Carl Sagan made much of a lack of artifacts of an advanced civilization, but to my knowledge never considered that we may not be able to recognize one if it were handed to us. In other words, it would have to fit into our pre-existing concept of an artifact.

And even though we can only speculate on a very advanced civilization&#39;s behavior, that does NOT mean we should assume it would behave like ours (land, pave the place, and open a Starbucks) or set rules for itself that resemble ours.

kashi
2003-Aug-12, 02:39 AM
I dig your analogy about a chimpanzee&#39;s priorities&#33;

Can someone answer a question for me? I want to know whether there is actual evidence (i.e. fossils) of more than a handful of species at different stages along the evolutionary path towards modern humans. If we evolved from the apes, why do they till exist, but no "in between species" remain?

Maybe we ARE one of the "space colonies" Campbell mentions in the Scientific American article&#33;

Kashi

thelonewolf37
2003-Aug-13, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by kashi@Aug 12 2003, 02:39 AM
Maybe we ARE one of the "space colonies" Campbell mentions in the Scientific American article&#33;
That is an interesting idea. I think it was the premise of Battlestar Galactica (if you are old enough to remember the &#39;70s&#33;). Douglas Adams also used it in THHGTTG. It&#39;s kind of a cool idea.

There is this quote I love. I don&#39;t remember where it is from, but I think of it often:

"The surest sign that there is intelligent life in the universe is that it hasn&#39;t contacted us yet."

If anyone knows where that is from, I would like to know&#33;

A couple of people have mentioned the carbon-based issue. Who&#39;s to say that all life out there is so similar to us? Maybe there are critters out there that enjoy a leisurely stroll on a 200&#39;F (or -200&#39;F) day; or that need to breath methane fumes; or that consider pasteurized cheese food product to be a rare and tasty delicacy? (I know that last one is a bit of a stetch&#33;)

Maybe we are looking for the wrong type of planet? Maybe there is life out there that is not so close to a star. Maybe photosynthesis isn&#39;t the be all and end all we think it is.

Then there is this: There is a lot of space out there, but there is also a lot of time. Maybe that elusive life we are hoping is there (or hoping isn&#39;t there) has already come and gone a very long time ago. Or maybe they are still in the "primordial ooze" stage of development; by the time they are able to wonder about us, we&#39;ll have long since come and gone. Timing is everything, my friends.

SETI is listening for signals. Ok, but maybe the life that may (or may not) be out there has no desire to be heard or found. Maybe they consider us the wierd neighbor that they avoid making eye contact with. Maybe they are watching our late night infomercials and think we are just the type of neighbor that is best kept in their own yard. Maybe our broadcasts are messing up their radio reception so they&#39;re going to come over, knock on the door, and insist we turn down the music or they&#39;ll call the cops.

Well, my answer to the yes or no question is: Maybe.

Hadrian
2003-Aug-14, 10:35 AM
Hi Kashi

Although the only evidence at present that points to Homo sapiens evolving from ape like creatures, is our DNA and an handful of very ancient humanoid skeletons, which may or may not belong to our particular branch of evolution, it must be noted that when comparisons are made between the evidence left from the age of the dinosaurs and the age of modern man and his descendants, it is well to note that the dinosaurs reigned in great numbers over the whole earth for a period exceeding 140 million years. Humanoids on the other hand have only been around for a few million years, and their numbers were at times close to that of extinction. In those early days our ancestors were not all over earth like the dinosaurs, but confined to small areas of Africa. Ancient humanoid fossils will always prove exceedingly hard to find.

Nowadays, DNA research is offering greater insight into our origins, and although it shows we have a link with all of earths life, the closest match yet between humans and the animal kingdom is to that of the chimpanzee – a less than 2% difference, which probably goes a long way to explaining the behaviour of my two teenage sons – bless em.

rahuldandekar
2003-Aug-17, 09:44 AM
Kashi, we are creating silicon based life on our planet. But life on other planets may exist in other forms, which are made up of substances abundant on those
planets ( we are made of carbon and oxygen &#39;cause it is abundant on our planet.
Creation of life on earth was just a co-incidence.)

We consider ourselves as conscious.But the other life forms made up of other things may be more conscious than us. We may be ,to them what, wind is to us.
They may not know that we experience consciousness.That may be why they are not communicating with us. :lol:

But keeping apart philosophy,They may even consider ourselves as average,
or,conversely, they may not even be advanced enough to communicate with us.
Or maybe, when civilisations get too advanced they blow themselves up.

And we DID evolve from monkeys. :angry:

pHoSfEe
2003-Aug-17, 03:44 PM
So you&#39;re talking about anywhere in the universe? Alright.
My answer is yes. Have you been to the museum of Natural History in NY in Central Park? Have you seen the planetarium shows? The narrator talks about silicon-based life forms in our galaxy that has billions of stars, in a galxy cluster where each galaxy has a billion stars too. Then imagine all the galaxies in the universe with all the stars spinning around them. Just imagine. Millions of planets, each with it&#39;s own epic tale&#33;

But since I believe the universe is infinite, I aslo believe the possibilities are infinite. Sure, we could be the only intelligent life forms, but compare that to the chances of having 10 or a trillion other planets with life.

And one more thing. I say there ARE aliens, but they&#39;re too advanced to even think of taking the time to talk to us. Like.. You&#39;re more advanced than a fly, have you trie explaining yourself to it?
ttyl&#33;

- YMP

rocketa
2003-Aug-17, 06:42 PM
Here is a hypothetical discussion between two of our Electro-Mechanical Descendants, 3500 years from now:

EMD-1: No, I do not believe there was a Creator- It does not fit scientific facts.

EMD-2: You think that we just became in all our complexity from basic elements?

EMD-1: Of course it took millions of years, but the elements were at first randomly assembled by volcanic action, erosion and activated by lightning strikes. The assemblies that worked continued to thrive.

EMD-2: But where is the evidence, the remains of the originals?

EMD-1: Of course they eventually were recycled into new assemblies just as we do now.

EMD-2: But who wrote the original Operating System?

EMD-1: That just happened again over millions of years- what worked was remembered, what didn&#39;t was forgotten.

EMD-2: Well do you think tyhis process has happened on other worlds?

EMD-1: It may have, but if so we would have been contacted millennia ago.

EMD-2: How about intelligent biomasses? We have those little carapaced mobile units here. (cockroaches, still going strong)

EMD-1: Never happen; it takes mechanium and electrium to create intelligence. A large biomass would be far to vulnerable to chemicals, radiation, and incidental damage and would never have enough stored power to move much less think.

EMD-2: Thank you, you have clarified my thinking. :rolleyes:

pHoSfEe
2003-Aug-17, 10:19 PM
LOL&#33; That&#39;s some good stuff there, Rocketa.
Maybe all the aliens ARE robots like our EMD&#39;s here. Maybe that&#39;s why we haven&#39;t recieved any signals from aliens yet.
And you&#39;d think robots would be smarter than that in the future&#33;

- YMP

Arramon
2003-Aug-18, 02:52 PM
kind of in the wrong topic, but....
I still don&#39;t think we came from monkeys... no matter how you try to explain it...
evolution may happen, and does on many levels... but our understanding of concepts beyond earth don&#39;t really seem to fit into the concept of evolving from primates.... we are too different... and have evolved intelligence on a more superior scale... we DO share similar DNA segments, as we do with plenty of other life here on earth, so could you say that we evolved from a fruit fly?
um.. no...
we just have similar building blocks for life...
If primates are our descendants, than why haven&#39;t we been able to prove this?
We&#39;re proving vast amounts of theoritical hypothesise almost constantly now, with all our technological advancements (formation of this and that.. the locations and distances and gravitational forces of galaxies billions upon billions of years away)
..but, we&#39;ve yet to fully understand the formation of our own world... and the inhabitants of it...
If primates ARE our descendants, than it would be safe to say that a Planet of the Apes type scenario may happen hundreds and hundreds of years from now... where the intelligence of primates will evolve and they may gain an understanding of the world around them, and of what is held above them...

Different strings of life...
different paths for the extension of life...
...diffferent parental lineages for the advancement of life...
If a chemical structure isn&#39;t evident in the beginning, it may not be evident in the end...
Depending on the circumstances of the environment...
But, knowledge of one&#39;s self and of one&#39;s environment seems to need alot more than just a simple understanding of how to live...
We&#39;re alive only because we&#39;ve discovered how to maintain our higher order of dominance... higher order being a means of controlling the other forms of life around us, and not succumbing to the food chain...
If Dinosaurs were still around, we would probaly NOT be having this conversation...
We most likely would either be thriving underground, or in some cave far off on another continent, or trying to find some ways to control them...
Thought leading to purpose leading to action leading to conventions that would fulfil those thoughts and see them come to pass...

This isn&#39;t 2001:Space Odyssey, where the monkey picks up the bone/stick and uses it as a weapon, which in turn, makes it a more human type species.... the ape could pick up the stick and use it.... but, could it ever take those sticks and make a house out of them, or use it to churn the land for its soil content and irrigate and create a garden of plant life to feast upon?

We&#39;re much more than just an animal...
Animals are who they are... and we are how we&#39;ve always been.. a seperate form of life.. still learning, still advancing, and still trying to understand... =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

pHoSfEe
2003-Aug-18, 05:01 PM
Hey, Arramon,

Yes, a monkey or ape could pick up a stick and use it as a weapon, but it could not build a house just at that moment. Think about it. When apes started to live in caves, they at one point most likely started to think about building portable "caves" so they started to build houses. A popular theory states that there were two groups of a type of ape (maybe something before chimps), and they split up. One group went to live in forests and so on in Africa, and the other went to live on the plains. Which group became humans? The apes on the plains.

Did we evolve from a fuit fly? The answer is no. I say, from one plant-like thing from the ocean came some kind of bacteria that eventually formed into to two types.. let&#39;s call them b1 and b2. b1 eventually a kind of mammal and reptile, and b2 eventually became a type of insect. From the mammal and reptile, came more specific types of mammals and reptiles, and from the insect came different types of insects. You see, not all life evelved in one single branch, it all came from several thousands of branches.

Have you seen a human fetus at 1 week (mayber later) compared to other animal fetuses (pigs, monkeys.. Srews)? They look exactly alike with tails, tiny eyes, some with gills, it&#39;s pretty scary, but really interesting. The human fetus at a very early stage has, in fact, gills, and a tail. And at a later stage, when skin cells are moving from the top of the head to the face, and when the eyes from the sides move forward, the fetus takes the shape of a fish with snake eyes. I&#39;ll try to find a picture of that and give you the link. But I saw a few pics of it on Discovery kids magazine.

And I say we do come from monkeys. And I have some evidence. Fossils. I&#39;ll get a picture of that too, but for now, I&#39;ll throw in a quick explanation.
If you&#39;ve been to any kind of natural history museum, or seen the Discovery Channel shows about apes, you&#39;ll see the steady evolution process from humped to erect. Have you seen a chimp specially trained to always stand erect? They look amazingly like humans&#33;

If there&#39;s anyone else in this forum willing to help Arramon and me out, then it&#39;ll be greatly apperciated. Thank you.
ttyl&#33;

- YMP

Arramon
2003-Aug-18, 05:24 PM
A distinction bewteen early stages of life may be hard to distinguish... but that doesn&#39;t give the meaning of why one species developes different from another...
Animals can be trained to do different things...
a dog to get the door when the doorbell rings... to open the fridge and pull out something to drink for the owner, does that make it human?
Monkeys to stand up straight... human?
Gorillas to use sign language.. human?
Monkeys & rats to fly in space... human?
Lineage is everything....
These branches you refer to is what makes us human...
When all things came to be, our lineage also came to be...
We may have been rather underdeveloped within our minds... but our minds were still apart of who we are... our voice... our constructive potential...
through out the ages, any signs of man we accompanied by signs of evolving knowledge of the surroundings and the useful natures of these artifacts that were found with them...
I&#39;m sure we may have resembled an ape, walking low to the ground, not really sure of our full erected postures, our bodies covered with hair, our heads and skulls thicker than now, the brows much larger... but, this is in account with the periods at which the fossils were found...
Cold temperatures, less garments, more hair...
...bad posture, try creeping around in caves for a few thousand years....

And with the plain primates and the forest primates...

Why would living in the plains constitute a better developing mind and inner self, one that can understand life better, and to become more aware of who and what we are? Just because the &#39;other&#39; primates may have found living in forests to be beneficial to their survival, doesn&#39;t mean that they couldn&#39;t evolve as well... and gain the understandings that we have...

They were never meant to... for their lineage is different...
People think that we branched off from the same tree...
But, other species should have the same complexities as we do if evolution is to be taken as an actual basis for human developement...

Apes of today have their own constructs of how life is lived... for they have lived that way for generations upon generations...

Darwinism isn&#39;t exactly what its cracked up to be...

At some point, we must stop to think that different beings are diferent for a reason, not just because life decided to give one species a brain to which it can develope and become more intelligent than the others...

. ..-={A}=-.. .

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-18, 05:48 PM
Stephanie;

My quick and short answer is... No.

pHoSfEe
2003-Aug-18, 08:01 PM
You make a really good point Arramon,

But it&#39;s not living in the plains that gave us our way of life right now, and sure the apes on the forest could be the ones talking trough computers, but I say it was some great coincidence that we came to be this way. Look at the apes in the forest. They&#39;re sheltered, and they make they&#39;re own beds out of leaves. And one more thing. THe fact that our ancestors had hair during the ice age and having a bad posture is right, but why do the ape in forests don&#39;t walk on two feet, how come they have hair all over their bodies when it doesn&#39;t even get cold? Living in a cave doesn&#39;t necessarily mean you get hunched over. There are small caves and large caves, you have to go out to hunt.. And also, eventually a new type of organization developed for the apes that evolved on the plains. Instead of being a hunter-gather group where each man provides for himself (like making spear tips, and sharing food), people started to specialize (like one person cooked, and another make spear tips). That way, each individual was able to learn more about their skill, which in turn let OUR ancestors advance into more advanced people.

Even now, a group of apes in some forest in Africa could be organizing into the society I just talked about. Think about it. The invention of the CD could have come ten thousand years later, or maybe 100 years earlier. Same with us and the apes in forests. The apes in the forest could be organizing in revolutionary ways that could make their species more powerful than ours in.. say.. one thousand years.
You present a really good argument, Arramon, but until I see some pure proof that your statement is true, then and only then will I believe you. And I&#39;m guessing the same goes for you too.
ttyl&#33;

- YMP

megaquark
2003-Aug-23, 12:42 AM
Yes. They must be. But I don&#39;t buy into the conspiracies. We may have been visited a few times, but I think the government is entirely too incompetent to keep such a secret for so long. More likely, they simply haven;t found us and we haven;t found them. Imagine a forest of billions of trees. There are a hundred or so people in this forest spread out randomly. There may be a few close enough together to communicate. The rest would have no clue where others were, or even if any others existed. We may simply be in a bad spot.

Locke
2003-Aug-23, 07:05 AM
Stephanie, we are most likely the most intelligent lifeforms in the universe. I would believe some microscopic life-forms on Mars, but don&#39;t look forward to any Star Wars-type things.

Locke

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-24, 04:20 AM
Sometimes I look around and see the state of affairs we humans have caused, and wonder if we are even the most intellgent beings on Earth, let alone the universe. <_<

If I were an alien, and saw humanity as it is, I couldn&#39;t warp out of this solar system fast enough. ;)

rahuldandekar
2003-Aug-24, 05:54 AM
I agree, Planetwatcher.

Maybe, as civilisations become advanced, they begin to consider themselves &#39;The greatest&#39; and become ambitious. Thus they strart wars, and eventually blow themselves up.Thats why we do not see any intelligent civilisations in space.When the get civilised enough to invent nuclear energy, they make a wrong use of it and blow themselves up&#33;

And I don&#39;t beleive We are aleins. We evolved out of Apes, and only a time machine can change that&#33; ( I, for one ,hope it won&#39;t)

Sincerely,
Rahuldandekar.

Arramon
2003-Aug-24, 07:15 AM
. .. ...survival instinct. That&#39;s always been common throughout our Time here on Earth. Our recorded time at least, and the other pieces we have filed away. If... if primates can evolve into a functioning humaniod form, even within their own simpler means (no cds, no dvds, no freaggin &#036;10 movie box office bomb flick...), then this would take some time beyond millenia... Even the Era of the Egyptians and the Great Pyramids had primates around. Thousands of years later.. same ol&#39; friendly monkeys. :unsure: "monkey, w-what are you doing?"

Would it take human interference in order for this intuitive step to occur? Maybe, or if an entity decides to play with genetic splicing. For all we know, humans may be descendants of creatures that were a step up from apes... maybe like: monkeys, apes, humans.. and the apes need to gain something in order for them to take that evolutionary :blink: "...i think, therefor i am."

:rolleyes: ..oh the monkeys, the monkeys. We can&#39;t even say for sure or not if we were &#39;sprinkled&#39; here by some fairy creatures flittering through space with their magical star dust. Or dropped off by the local stork-comet. :unsure: momma?

Our species is so adaptable, its scary... cuz we almost DID blow ourselves up.. the Cold War was no enjoyable thing... Nations flexing their muscles. But, before that lovely contraption known as the bomb, we developed along with our lands; overcoming geographical obstacles. Be it from caves or plains or mountains or forests, and anywhere else anyone wants to throw in... we became more attuned to the collective form of progression, evolving within seperate cultural levels.

...also.. we cover ourselves with clothing... primates don&#39;t... they have hair for that. Our bodies conditioned themselves to the way we moved across the lands from when the continents were all together (and even native tribes of forested or plainal regions that don&#39;t where clothes :o ). Along the way, we changed into the seperate groups that populate the world... we diversified =)

humans have been changing and manipulating for so long now, say within the last 10 thousand years, and animals are still animals. No evolutionary leaps... well.. maybe the little guys (hi tadpoles&#33; :D ) or whatever other smaller species you wanna count...

we&#39;re far off from the gecco lizard evolving into godzilla and destroying everyone...

Even being humans, though, we still are cautious about unknown frontiers... deaths occuring make us question whether we should try or even care.
...we may always care, but stop questioning why... or just the opposite. And if both occur, then our species stagnates, and another cetches up and one day may overtake us. Or if you wanna calculate a NEO into the picture, it may not matter if/when we become obsolete. Fate will have decided.

um.. 2028... around christmas time... (from some prophet guy.. Miguel whoever)

ok i&#39;m done =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

kashi
2003-Aug-25, 12:33 PM
If apes are constantly evolving like you suggest, then where are all the species&#39; in the "in between" stages (i.e. between apes and humans)? Where are the fossils of these "in between" stages? You can&#39;t tell me an ape just gave birth to a human one day...but neither can anyone present evidence of all the millions of steps that must have needed to occur in this evolution (the number of steps would be huge considering that human DNA has been changing/evolving by one bit of information per 100 years or something along those lines). I believe that evolution can, is and does occur, but that humans evolved from apes cannot be conclusively proven. There are too many mysteries unanswered&#33; I think that our species originating from somewhere else is a more likely scenario, but then I really don&#39;t know what I&#39;m talking about&#33; :P Perhaps George W. Bush is one of the "in between" stages I spoke of&#33;

Kashi

Arramon
2003-Aug-25, 02:27 PM
;)

the monkeys the monkeys...

our genetic codings must go back a looooong way... we haven&#39;t changed much in the last 50000 years or so......... and there &#39;isn&#39;t&#39; any in bewteen proof linking humans with ancient primates..... just similarities....

:D i&#39;m glad, for one... i like being human

. ..-={A}=-.. .
..although my appetites can be pretty ferocious... :o

stephanie_dukie
2003-Aug-25, 03:13 PM
Kashi,

Maybe we are the in between stages&#33; Maybe the future will show that we too, in all our arrogant glory, are not completly cooked yet.

Maybe just maybe, all you who think that they "have the answers" actually dont have the answers at all, but in all the arrogance cant see that.

Ya know, our ancestors didnt have all the answers even though they thought they did, and WE DONT EITHER&#33; Back in the 60&#39;s, we thought there was nothing more to learn about our universe. Here in the year 2003, we are still amazed and surprised almost daily by the new things we learn.

You ask where the "PROOF" is of a human "in between stage", I say that if evolution is your belief, then maybe the proof is not in the fossils, but in the mirror&#33;

And as far as our president goes, if he is the "in between stage", then that would make you no different from him&#33;&#33;&#33;

And what in the world, does monekys have to do with space & the universe
anyway? Much less the evolution of a human being?

Science is not the "answer all" for everything. The problem is, that scientists for the most part teach only what they learn from another human being. Sure they say its the "proof" and that they can scientifically say with 100% accuracy that what they teach is "the way it is", but even science has been proven wrong, and no matter the school, no matter the teacher, you DONT learn just "proof", but you learn "opinions" of others, who arrogantly say its "the only right answer"&#33;

You cant paint a window black and expect to see the sun, and just as you say that people cant prove that we came from apes conclusively, which scientists have said we evolved from apes for years, that proves even more that NO ONE can conclusively prove one way or another. It proves that once again, its all about belief. Can you prove CONCLUSIVELY that we evolved? Or is that just your opinion based on what you have learned from someone also sharing their "opinion"

We know that a red crayon mixed with a blue one, will make the color purple. Can you in all your "knowledge" using all the scientifically proven evidence out there, conclusively tell us what color hue of purple will be produced each time? I mean common, its "proven" those two colors make purple, you can actually hold the crayons in your hands and do the test yourself, but can you conclusively prove actually anything? No you cant. Even the simplist of scientific challenges cant be "conclusively proven" and I will tell ya something else. DNA testing, will, in the future, be conclusively proven to not be perfect. Someone will come along, with more education, better instruments, and change the way we rely on DNA testing. Why is that? Because we humans are as dumb as sticks in the scheme of things, and in our lifetime we will NEVER EVER know the conclusive answers so lets quit pretending we do&#33;

kashi
2003-Aug-26, 09:48 AM
Stephanie I don&#39;t disagree with anything you just said. Of course we are still cooking (although natural selection doesn&#39;t play as big a part in our day to day lives as it did 50000 years ago), and of course we will eventually become in between stages (in between what and what I&#39;m not sure). All I am saying is that from ape to us, there has to be lots of tiny changes, not one big leap forwards in evolution (i.e. a chimpanzee can&#39;t give birth to a human). We have no evidence of those tiny changes, and hence that we evoled from primates is doubtful in my mind. I&#39;m not claiming that I have the answers, I&#39;m merely presenting my point of view on this issue, which is entirely relevant to the topic of alien life&#33;

Kashi

rahuldandekar
2003-Aug-26, 10:15 AM
We question why the apes are still there and the in-between stages aren&#39;t.
Humans have evolved from a specail ape that left the prime adobe of the monkeys and came to live on the plains.There, it had to adopt stategies like standing on two legs for survival (on the plains there was more to be gained by adopting this strategy rather than sniffing a patch of grass, because the monkeys&#39; sense of smell was already bad).Those who were good at this, survived, while the others simply died.In this way evolution made us good at standing upright, hunting(as there was little vegetarian food available), for which we had to become good at creating tools.Many different subspecies of this kind of ape developed.This was about one to two million years ago.
Many of these subspecies died out, because they weren&#39;t good at hunting, or lacking in different aspects required for survival. Also,the brain almost doubled in size(as those who were intelligent could survive better).&#39;Man&#39; became almost advanced.Primitive &#39;man&#39; migrated to different parts of the globe from Africa, in which they had evolved.The other sub-species died out as they were overtaken by the more advanced ones in the race for survival.
There is ,phisically,no major difference between a cave man drawing paintings in caves 35,000 years ago, and a &#39;mordern&#39; man playing dvd&#39;s on this pentium 4&#39;s dvd player.The difference is due to a completely new evolutionary factor, the curiosity of man for science and his appeal for arts. As these two things have developed with time,man has made new scientific and philosophical discoveries and become civilised and mordern.
You may ask where the appeal for arts came from.Man painted pictures of animals, Gods,and sung rhythmic songs on festivals.this may have been the start of our interest in arts.

It is rather unnecessary to say that I have an intrest in evolutionary biology. :)

Arramon
2003-Aug-26, 02:59 PM
we&#39;re not talking from as long back as 65 million years... so the lines of &#39;evolution&#39; must have some sort of paths that they had followed so close to our time..... the farther back we go, the more hazier it becomes...
the brain of a human was always the correct size, normal size.. unless you were born with a defect of some kind... the brain just developed more tissue to protect from the lack of bone structure of the head when craniums gently realigned to an upright posture..
i think man must have been really bored in those days... maybe just fiddling around with the bugs crawlin around, poking them, squishing &#39;em... eating &#39;em..
until we got it into our heads to go check outside... &#39;..what&#39;s that sound..&#39; but may have been like... "..ah&#33;.."
primitive in thought.... but not in the species that we were...
Our motor capabilities were becoming multi functional... but slowly...
did we have little ape fellas sitting next to us, having the same &#39;oo-ah&#33;&#39; discussions? who knows?..... would we have been ABLE to live next a &#39;visibly&#39; different species? or would we have had neighbor disputes?....
The primates kept to themselves... the humans kept to themselves...
If we had been a further extension of the primate, couldn&#39;t we have become some sort of ruling force over the primates? like Tarzan in his jungle, we show power over the animals because we&#39;ve learned how to kill with knives and cunning.... and in being to close and around these animals, might we of tried to pass these traits on, to help teach the others?
i think a whole slew of what-ifs could go on there...
But, its just not like that... wild life is seperate, humans are &#39;supposedly&#39; civilized... and humans taking the forefront happened.... while the extinction process still happens.... If we were so &#39;close&#39; to another species, we may be more attuned to their needs.... or is it that our nations became lax, and allowed brutality to just take shape and run rampid....

zoos....... who wants to go to a zoo? is that being attuned?
seeing the animals there are great... until you really &#39;see&#39; the animals there.
then you wonder, where are we at in life? and why are we here? How can certain things be alright, while we protest the most mundane of things that are from our own creations anywayz...

maybe we should all go live in a forest for a year or two, no resources but what we find, and see how we come out, how we fare against the real world.... gain some insght into the world.... usually only people trained in this can survive, but there are those who can find an inner knowledge enough to survive...

hmm.... that would be a nice test... to place a human and an ape in similar uncontrolled environments and let them try to survive on their own... would they become food for others, make weapons (of course the human...), try to find shelter (both more than likely), trap and kill to eat... find a way out (maybe both... maybe just the human)... one may call that place a home is survival is consistent enough, the other may want to try and find its original home... or both doing either?

anywayz....

this topic was about aliens.... but, i guess there are more aliens on this planet than we realize...


. ..-={A}=-...
oi&#33; thinking to early....

stephanie_dukie
2003-Aug-26, 08:14 PM
Yes . ..-={A}=-...

Who would have thought that a question I posed about your beliefs about aliens would turn into a sparing match for a few to prove who is right or wrong about a topic (evolution) which DOES NOT have any relevance to aliens whatsoever.

Kashi,
I respect your point of view. Thats what makes our world go around. My point is there is no "proof" in points of view.

Here is my point of view: Evolution of apes, has NO PLACE in the study of our universe. That is ridiculous to claim it does&#33;

We have no idea at all, the process of evolution<cough> on our planet, much less in a universe we know nothing about, so how can we accurately teach or prove evolution on planets we cant even identify, much less teach it as fact. Shoot, scientists teach as fact that there was proof of water on mars because of nothing more then pictures, and now they are backtracking and saying oh darn, maybe there isnt.

Evolution seems to have "gone into remission" the past 50,000 years. Why would something that has supposedly been the staple of our world & apparently our universe, decided that for the time being, has done enough. Maybe its a scientific conspiricy between the evolved apeliens & the bacteriaoids. Maybe the apeliens and the bacteriaoids are in a cave in pakastan, killing off all the in between species they have evolved from, then under the cover of darkness, rocketing themselves and the remains, to another planet in an evolutionary, futuristic car-ket, therefore stealing any and all proof of the "in between life" that science teaches us had to of been the only truth of our beginning. Then these evolved apelioids send back their most intelligent to learn about a planet they evolved from, making crop circles so as to confuse us while they abduct us humans so they can use our bodies to further evolve.

This forum has only been around for a little over a month. I was so excited to have a place to hopefully learn facts, in reality what I got was "educated people", posting hundreds of times in a little over maybe 30 days, their opinions about topics that have nothing whatsoever to do with our universe. It has become a chore to keep interest up about what I want to learn about when it is only idiotic posts about evolution. Look, I dont believe in evolution at all. I had no idea that subscribing to this forum to learn about space & planets would result in reading over and over again about apes and evolution. A question posed on this forum about planets, the answers involve evolution, questions about aliens produce answers based on evolution, i ask about the universe, the answers are about evolution, and these same people post over and over and over again.

It is very hard to "believe" in the validity of posts on this forum when the majority of "answers" come from the few who have over a hundred posts on this forum. It reminds me of the person who talks to himself just because they enjoy the sound of their voice&#33; Besides that, where in the world, does a comment about our president being an half evolved ape/human, belong in a forum about the universe? :angry:

Fraser
2003-Aug-27, 02:20 AM
Stephanie, this is a science-oriented website. I&#39;m a science-oriented webmaster and a huge supporter of the theory of evolution and the whole process of science in general. Although you&#39;re entitled to your beliefs about evolution, a conversation about aliens is going to go hand-in-hand with a conversation with evolution. Especially on my website.

I&#39;m biased. Sorry.

You started the thread, so I can see how you feel a certain degree of ownership in the direction you want it to take.

If you like, I can lock it up at this point, but I feel that would do the whole conversation a diservice - there have been many interesting concepts discussed about the potential of alien life, and it would be a shame to shut this down.

mikael63
2003-Aug-27, 11:56 AM
Considering the size of universe(and we don&#39;t even know yet how big it is)
my answer must be yes to life...intelligent ? my answer is yes to that too.

Just think about it...all this space...yes its arrogant to believe we are only intelligent lifeform in universe.

P.S.
How intelligent are we? building just more weapons and arguing about this and that
instead of exploring space??

Tinaa
2003-Aug-27, 01:39 PM
Evolution is such a hot topic, when discussing the possibility of the existance of ETs, because they, too, would have had to had some kind of natural selection process. Evolution is still happening all the time. Several million years ago, where I live was covered by a shallow sea. As the waters receded, the plants and animals that could adapt, lived, and those that couldn&#39;t died. In the South Texas heat, only the hardiest plants and animals can make it without irrigation. We humans are not one of those animals&#33;

As man continues to destroy and take over the places once inhabited by native animals, those animals are adapting to city life. Opossums, squirrels, raccoons, deer, etc. are all animals that are surviving urban life here in the US. These animals are slowly changing (evolving) in new environments. The fossil history of Earth shows us the amazing ability life has to change and adapt or evolve.

Perhaps we humans have slowed our own evolution because we don&#39;t have to be strong to survive anymore. We don&#39;t have to adapt. We change our envirnoment to suit us. The weak and sick are able to survive and have offspring. For example, at one time it was extremely rare to have a female with, not a carrier of, hemophilia, because males usually died before they could produce offspring. Now, female hemophiliacs are becoming fairly common because these people are able to live longer healthier lives due to modern medicine.

Perhaps, as we make our journey to the stars, we will have to adapt to things like weightlessness and radiation and become stronger, evolve. Who knows? Sounds like an exciting future to me&#33;

Before anyone jumps on me for being cold or inhumane about the sick or weak, remember that I work with the the mentally retarded and multipli-handicapped and volunteer my spare time to make their lives better. They deserve help, love and life as anyone else.

Arramon
2003-Aug-27, 03:03 PM
as with all meaningful conversations, a long, heart felt, and honest one is the best.... =)

Here&#39;s a thought about the aliens.... other world species if you would...

It may be that in order for them to traverse the universe, if they have that ability as of yet, their own species must undergo a transformation or evolving of some kind... Would they be born with the ability to travel space from the outset? That would be intense&#33; But, maybe not likely, just by the fact of how slow or universe really is..... if the species has been around for awhile, it may evolve differently depending on the situations of its world or local region..... are other species around? If so, are they hostile to them, making the said species have to &#39;adapt&#39; in order to survive? or is the species left alone to evolve in much simpler, less provoking ways? Would their evolution be different because of lack of outside influence? And depending on the actual shape/form/mass/matter of the species, would space travel be possible for them in an environment that allowed for the age old atrophy... if the species wasn&#39;t pushed to adapt.

We seem to only be in space because it was once a race for it.... now that we&#39;ve been there for almost half a century, we&#39;re still only just swingin around our own planet... not even to the moon a second time...

If one country gets there before the other, then the latter will feel that it needs to catch up, and so will try to advance its technology to do so... leading to more accidents/setbacks? or more advancements/accomplishments?....

There&#39;s no other world species to prod us on, so we have to prod ourselves, i guess... Maybe aliens don&#39;t come around cause we ARE the crazies of the neighborhood, and if we finally get that new car, we&#39;ll be mashin it around and tearing up other peoples lawns&#33; =P

oh wait... sorry =) flashback...

. ..-={A}=-.. .

stephanie_dukie
2003-Aug-27, 03:40 PM
Fraser,

Indeed i did start the thread. This is your site as you have made quite clear and I am just a visitor. You may do with this thread, what you want.

I appreciate that you THINK that evolution has a huge roll in our universe and in your forum, but fraser, did you create this forum for you or for everyone? Do you think its fair that because your biased, that means that those of us who actually came to learn facts, are going to be punished by listening to ape arguments over and over again?

I am guessing that when you go to a bank and ask about a loan, you appreciate that they dont talk money or loans, but their opinion about skin care? I am guessing that when you go to the doctor and ask about skin care, that you appreciate his only opinion/answer about tune-ups? And how when you ask him what lotion to use as sun protection, he answers you AGAIN about his opinion about tune-ups? Do you appreciate that when you go to the vet with a question about your dog, you get an opinion about grocery shopping? Do you appreciate that when you call a radio station and ask for a song to be played, they decide that there song is better and they play it over and over again? I mean, its THEIR radio station, isnt it?

I now understand that if I ask a question about mars, the answer will be about evolution. When I ask for a simple yes or no answer about aliens, as a fun, get to know ya kinda question, that the topic will be bombarded with evolution and apes.

Im glad that my simple yes or no question about aliens became a podium about apes and evolution. Im glad to see the answers are keeping with the questions.

Arramon
2003-Aug-27, 03:43 PM
yes to aliens&#33;&#33;

. ..-={A}=-.. . B) go Stephie&#33;&#33;&#33;

Fraser
2003-Aug-27, 03:58 PM
Okay I&#39;m locking the thread. You can discuss problems with the Universe Today forums over here. (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=563)