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TwAgIssmuDe
2003-Jul-17, 07:58 PM
Some time in the future an insane scientist goes back in time to kill his own grandmother, but how can he had existed to go back and kill his grandmother if she had already been killed?
Makes me wonder if time travel is even possible in theory or fact.

stephanie_dukie
2003-Jul-17, 10:41 PM
;) well I dont know about all that killin my grandmother stuff,

BUT...

If they needed a volunteer to travel back in time, THAT I WOULD DO!

I could see me now, Id go to woodstock and NEVER leave!

But on the reality side of things, Time travel i think could never be done. Its a belief thing and thats for another forum!

Josh
2003-Jul-18, 12:17 AM
A lot of philosophising about the plausibility of time travel have been done by many a writer.

That very question - the going back and killing your grandmother which means you where never born which means you couldn't go back in time which means she was born ... etc etc - is called the "time travel paradox". There are quite a few ways around it too. I'll give a few here...

1. One theory to overcome the paradox states that only pure energy and only on a very small scale can travel back in time such as a photon or the like. That way no event changing effects could come out of time travel.

2. Another theory says that time travel is only possible into the future. I find this one a bit hard to swallow. It's a way around the paradox but not exactly mathematically or scientifically sound.

3. Given that you were born and your grandmother didn't die gives another possibility. You can go back in time but every attempt you make at taking her like will fail - you can't change history.

4. This paradox only works if we assume that there is only one time line in the universe. Another theory shows that you can go back and kill your grandmother and still yourself be born. Thiscomes out of the idea that 'everything that can happen does happen'. So, think of time and reality as a tree. We start with a tree trunk and then branches off it and then further branches of that and so on and so on. Multiple realities or timelines is similar. You have an action leading up to an event (the tree trunk) then the multitude of things that actually happen (the branches) all branching off into their own versions of reality.

Okay ... there are some ways around the time travel paradox. Hope that helps a little.

ScottPithan
2003-Jul-18, 04:27 PM
Here's a new prospective. Perhaps time in the past does not exist any more. Most people treat the past like its a place that you can visit, kinda like a past memory. But, perhaps time in one dimentional, it just is in the present and moves on, kinda like in the movie "the langaliers" by Steve King. :blink:

Hydrok
2003-Jul-18, 06:34 PM
How about this: time travel is possible, every theory you can come up with will have some sort of fatal flaw, for instance, a theory suggests that if you go through a black hole you are sped along faster than the speed of light, but understand this, where ever you go light is traveling with you, so actually your still moving as fast as light. however People assume that in order to go back in time they must travel faster than light. now if this theory holds water than if we could make an engine so powerful that it would travel twice the speed of light, but we sent it away from earth at the speed of light, then brought it back 2x the SOL it would have landed as it was taking off. Get it?

So in that sence time travel is possible, but that only goes for the past, not the future.

But the bigger question has already been made, is time an "object" is it controlable, or is it simply something that humans made up to keep track of when they were likely to get eaten at night?

Evil Steve
2003-Jul-18, 11:20 PM
Time travel the speed of light and black holes.

Here's how I understand it works, hopefully in brief. I'm not up with modern Phisics but you guys will correct me before I show my naiveity.

Time travel as related to Einsteins Relativity (only the pretentious quote Einstein). Acceleration has the same effect as gravity*, the more gravity you've got the slower time moves (I think it squishes up the attoms and slows their vibration), if you get enough gravity time stops then theoreticly goes backward. Only problem is to go fast enough to make a measurable difference you have to be going a significant fraction of the speed of light and the time stop horison is generaly considered to be around light speed. This is why people want to jump down black holes and slingshot themselves of into space at breakneck speeds. The only other problems are the faster you go the harder it is to speed up, more energy for each Kph/Mph acceleration in an exponential ratio, as noted previous like, the general theory is you can't go faster than the speed of light for this and other reasons. If you cant go faster than light you cant stop time and you definitely can't go backward. But you can slow it down for yourself and go faster into everyone elses future.
So what about the Black holes then. The good old singularity, the Galactic ones (like at the center of our galaxy) must be enormous. Their event horisons+ must extend considerable distances from the surface. Once you cross the EH line then you get into experermental phisics and the normal laws break down, visions of space ships popping through wormholes all over the Universe inserted here. Now I must admit I'm no black hole expert, but I don't subscribe to the funnel diving out of two dimentional graph of space. That gives an idea there is nothing on the other side, that you can fly right through to nirvana like alien civilisations just waiting to be conquered (come on we would). In my understanding theres exactly the same force coming the other way and acting on everyother square inch of the "Hole". I am however practiced with gravity (You eat more pies, you feel more gravity), so while I won't volunteer to be the first test subject fired into a black hole. I will make plenty of space for those who want to try, I only ask one concession. Can I have you CD collection if you don't come back to get it before you leave.

Is time an object?
Well you can use metaphors like the old river winding to the sea, but that just prompts people to talk about jet boats and "what about crocodiles and things". It's a good discription never the less with deep bits moving slower and shallows racing ahead. But it probably isn't like that at all, its a succesion of moments where the only thing that exisists is now, the past is only marked with memory and the location of atoms (my glass is broken because it fell off the desk, and it stays broken because there is no past to go back into to change). Things that have been done remain done and events in the future remain unpredictable because they haven't happened yet.

All this does not change the fack that time travel is the base premise for some very good movies.

Evil Steve

* Gravity isn't really a force but we'll look into that a little later ;) .

+ Event horison is the line at which the excape velosity becomes the SOL making excape imposible.

NSR
2003-Jul-18, 11:54 PM
If time travel is actually possible, then shouldn't we already have been encountering time travelers from the future?

StarmanXavier
2003-Jul-19, 02:38 AM
With the small and limited knowledge of the universe no one can really say if time travel is possible or not. I do believe that anything is possible.

TwAgIssmuDe
2003-Jul-20, 09:18 PM
Thanks everyone for your replies, I appricciate them very much.

Josh,


Your theories were quite amazing, but the one about the branches and the tree trunk, brought up another theory in my head.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't it be that when he goes back in time ( The Tree trunk ) to kill his grandmother, is not actually his, but a parallel universes ( The Branches ), which means that he may still be born but not i that parallel universe.
I'm I somehow right?

Aiz
2003-Jul-21, 03:07 AM
Michael Crichton's book "Timeline" has a very good theory on time travel.
According to him, time travel is theoretically impossible. It is, however, possible to achieve the effect of time travel using "Quantum Bubbles". These bubbles essentially represent the infinite possibilities at every quantum points, where events take different turns. Thus each bubble represents a different timeline, which is irreversible in itself. However, the progression of timeline in different bubbles may not be "in-synch", meaning we can find a bubble that contains a timeline which is, say, 100 years in our pass. By jumping (somehow) from our bubble into this bubble (bubble B), we can achieve a time travelling effect, while not violating the law (suppose it is true) that says time travel is impossible. We can, therefore, do whatever we like "overthere" and wreck as much a havoc as we want with impunity, and we won't be changing any history!
To see the effect of our mischief, we need to find a new bubble ©, in which events happen exactly the way we did it at bubble B, but the timeline progression is already, say, 100 years in advance. That way, we'd also see how history is "changed", without ever causing any real change!
Its like loading a saved game, and always create a new save file instead of overiding the old one.
Its nature's own simulation device...pretty neat, huh? B)

Josh
2003-Jul-21, 04:29 AM
TwAgIssmuDe, that is right and wrong. It is your grandmother but your grandmother in another universe. get it? theories like this require some latteral nothing.

(by the way, they aren't my theories)

Fraser
2003-Jul-21, 05:13 AM
Well, if Michael Crichton says it's possible, then it must be possible. ;-)

From what I understand, physicists say that nothing in the laws of physics rule out time travel, but they don't have a clue how it could be possible.

If time travel is possible some time in the future, why aren't they all over the place, messing up our timeline?

Josh
2003-Jul-21, 06:31 AM
Perhaps people of the future have the temporal prime directive :D and stick to it?

Although ... there was news in america about some guy up on insider trading charges. He made millions (about 350 of them) from about $800 or so in only a couple of weeks. His defence was/is that he's from the future and he knew the trend before it happened. He said to prove it he'll give the outcomes of various sporting and world events. Also, there is no record of this guys existence before his arrest! Believe it? I THINK NOT! We could also ask if major historical personalities might be time travellers. Jesus? Moses? Mohammed? Have i just committed multiple blasphemy?

but seriously now. One of the theories is that only massless objects can travel back in time. As soon, however, as we have the ability to go forward in time we will.

And ... Wormhole theory shows that spacetime travel is possible - between space and space, between time and time and between space and time or combinations thereof. If a wormhole is found that can go back in time from one side and forward from the other then there's nothing to say that you'll also end up in the same place. Step into a spatio-temporal wormhole today on earth and possibly end up a million years ago in the galactic core. I hear it's nice this time of year.

rahuldandekar
2003-Jul-21, 09:50 AM
I recently saw a programme on Discovery channel about time travel.

It said - suppose that H.G.Wells great grandson Simon Wells went back in time and tried to kill his great-grandfather. ;) But as history doesn't show H.G.wells
as dead,he fails and he is caught by a cop. :D (as he cant change history)

Then he tells H.G. everything (even about his book -the time machine ).
"then maybe Simon is the real inspiration behind the time machine &#33;" they say. <_<

But Simon got the idea from H.G. . H.G. got it from Simon. :unsure: Where did the idea originate? :o Was it created from nothing? :angry:

Gozer
2003-Jul-21, 05:51 PM
James P. Hogan is another author who seems to like the topic of time travel, specifically the Many Worlds Theory. 2 books that I have read are quite interesting, &#39;Paths to Otherwhere&#39; and &#39;The Proteus Operation&#39;.

cheers

Cambo
2003-Jul-22, 09:32 AM
Since this has branched off a little, Julian May&#39;s "Golden Torc" series uses time travel as one of it&#39;s threads to start the whole story.
If you haven&#39;t read them, give it a go, they are fantastic books.
Alternatively you could also read "Intervention" by the same author which tells why the &#39;heroes&#39; went back in time.
As I said &#39;time travel&#39; is only one thread and a minor one at that, the story&#39;s main threads are evolution of man to the &#39;next&#39; level - telekenisis (sic), telepathy and the like; how these &#39;gifts&#39; are used and meeting other &#39;beings&#39; in our universe.
Not doing the stories much justice but hopefully it might pique your interest.

And by the way, I&#39;m not related to Ms May or affiliated with her in any way. LOL :rolleyes:

Hadrian
2003-Jul-23, 12:53 AM
Life by its very nature exists on the edge of time. The edge of time of course being the present – and the present as we all know is that fleeting instant that is constantly moving into the future.
Is time a by-product of the motion of energy that all matter is made of? Without time electrons could not revolve around a nucleus and energy would be unable to travel through space. All would be static – nothing would change.
So when we view life we have to view it in the present tense – and that includes all life, no matter were it exists in the universe.
Is it possible to travel back in time? Well, first of all we would have to master space, to account for the constant movement of our galaxy, star and planet. After all, if someone did go back an hundred years, the planet would be where it was then, many billions of miles back along that passage of movement we are taking across the universe.
And going back into the past might be a bit like trying to revive the dead, and even time itself. Mind you, according to Einstein, all we have to do is master light speed and traveling into the future could be more than a possibility. That’s one option for time travel in the future I for one won’t easily discount.

Astral
2003-Jul-24, 03:07 AM
I may be completely off on this, but how&#39;s this for the &#39;kill your own grandmother&#39; theory:

The second you kill your own grandmother, you cease to exist, right? Because you were never born?

Well, the second you ceased to exist, you never went back and killed your grandmother... with me so far?

So your grandmother continues with her life, brings your mother (or father) into the world, and you are born again.

Perhaps you get the same choice again... whether to go back in time... whether to kill your grandmother again...

Perhaps you choose differently this time, eh?

Ah, the great circle of life. ;)

Just something to exercise your neurons.

Josh
2003-Jul-24, 04:56 AM
That is called a "causality loop". A closed cycle of time in which the same set of circumstances are played out again and again. We could all be living in a causality loop of one sort or another and never even know it.

...

Now, what if the future and the past and the present aren&#39;t linked linearly? If the future is happening or has happened already - as is the case with already being born then going back in time to kill your grandmother - then it&#39;s perfectly feasible that you can still go on living through the timeline again without being born in the second place.

What do you think?

Hydrok
2003-Jul-28, 01:51 AM
good god all this stuff has got me gone crazy :blink:

I will hold to my theory that time travel in a sence that means go back in time in ones own timeline is impossible. Cant be done, I will also support the theory that multiple time lines may exist.

however, we may find that a truly advanced civilization has understood that time has no meaning. it is my belief that we as humans are weak, we depend on all sorts of strange theorys and suspisions to get us answers to questions we pose, want my honest opinion time as we know it doesent exist, some braniac figured out that the rock we live on revolves around a sun, thus creating "years" and that the earth rotates once every 23 hours and 57 min. there for calling it a "day" so now everything we measure is in "earth years" we discovered how fast light travels now distances are measured in "light years" eventually we will discover some thing so small it can be measured in nuclei. get my drift.

so i therefor resolve to say that time was invented by early man to figure out what time the animals that would eat them would come out, so they had ample time to run in their caves.

kashi
2003-Jul-28, 01:01 PM
I hate to tell you this Hydrok_M35, but years were used as a measurement of time long before we knew Earth revolved around the sun.

Your argument that we invented time is confusing to me. "so i therefor resolve to say that time was invented by early man to figure out what time the animals that would eat them would come out, so they had ample time to run in their caves." You say that time is a figment of our imagination almost, but then you state that "early" man invented time so that they could have ample "time" to run into their caves. They invented time so that they had ample time. Hmmm. I think what you&#39;re getting at is that time is somehow intrinsically linked to consciousness. What&#39;s to say that some species might perceive time differently to us (they might see it as a fourth physical dimension for example, and be able to travel through it an any direction).

I&#39;m not getting into this time travel debate&#33;&#33;&#33; Modern theoretical physics can&#39;t yet prove or disprove the possibility of time travel so how can any of us be so sure?

Kashi :unsure:

Josh
2003-Jul-28, 02:13 PM
Theoretical physics does prove time travel to be a possibility .. and in fact, encourages it. Unfortunately that&#39;s the problem with theoretical physics ... there are no experiments involved. The fundamental ability to travel through time as we travel through length and width is a necessary product of many theories, including the big ones: Relativity and Quantum physics.

I agree that a lot of theories that humans hypothesize are bourne out of a need to "fudge" but at the same time many of these theories have held up against test after test. Time is as "real" as gravity. Just because you can feel one instantly doesn&#39;t mean the other is nullified.

star-tled
2003-Jul-28, 09:51 PM
Sooo... could we open another window in the time/travel debate. In his book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters", Gary Zukav devotes some time to ruminating about the implications of Bell&#39;s Theorem. You&#39;ll have to bear with me now since I&#39;m working from memory - I read this and did my own research after reading it a couple of decades ago.

The Theorem itself is a long complicated equation I can&#39;t hope to remember. The description of it&#39;s effects went something to the effect that a single entity (could have been a photon) has two units - each with a spin opposite to the other. The experiment was conducted thus: split this entity into it&#39;s sub-units and allow those units to travel their own path. No matter how far apart those sub-units were, if the spin on one changed, it was possible to observe the spin on the other sub-unit changing to accommodate that at the identical moment.

It was posited as a explanation for things like ESP and telekinesis. If a person could harness their mental faculties to affect single "photons" which it shared at one time with other beings - past, present, or future - then one could "travel" and communicate at will by "changing the spin" of it&#39;s "half" of the entity. Apparently, there were such experiments attempted by different academic and government bodies.

Since one would always share some genetic material with all one&#39;s ancestors "back to the beginning of time" It should be possible to choose where one&#39;s consciousness would arrive and have influence by affecting "the spin" in the receiving entity&#39;s consciousness. I suppose one could use it to explain prophetic abilities too - such as Nostradamus :rolleyes: Don&#39;t know.

In some faith systems - such as Buddhism and those that use shamans - the assertion is that if one is highly trained and/or gifted in harnessing that skill, one may materialize or travel wherever one wills. One text I read described it as using weak force(?) energies like emotions or sonar effects like chanting, plus the energy of astronomical manifestations such as moon phases as the "vehicle" for transferring to another time or place. :blink:

Can&#39;t say as I can follow it completely but just for the sake of broadening the debate - there it is.

Arramon
2003-Jul-28, 11:00 PM
Okay... here&#39;s a couple links for ya&#33;&#33;

Crystal used for faster than light travel... (http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/7/12/213335/558)

Light Can Travel Faster Than Light (http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2003/05/23.html)

...and if you travel faster than light, then what?

. ..-={A}=-.. .

N3373H
2003-Aug-08, 11:22 PM
Anyone still confused? Anyone not? I like the branching theory. In fact if you watch Back to the Future part 2, Doc. Brown explains it quite nicely. Sometimes I think Hollywood knows more than the real scientists.

Just joking there, but they do come up with some neat stuff that is usually invented for real, later. :lol:

infinitysage
2003-Oct-03, 08:07 AM
In my opinion the universe extends infinitely outward and infinitely inward. How could a finite universe contain infinite elements such as pi or the golden mean? Based on this assumption, if you were to travel some distance x in a given direction you would eventualy arrive in a location that is similar from where you left except that a person who was wearing white socks in point A is now wearing black socks at point B. Continuing with this same reasoning if you kept traveling you would eventualy come across a world similar to yours except that it is a future or past "time". The main point of this post is that time can not exist without space and space can not exist without time. They go "hand in hand". So time must be located in another point in space. I would truly like to expand upon this "theory" but in order to truly prove it I must learn more. Once I have the required tools I will publish a paper. Until then let us discuss this fascinating issue of modern science and learn from one another.

infinitysage
2003-Oct-03, 08:08 AM
If anyone was wondering, we are travelling at the speed of light, you just have to think relatively.

Planetwatcher
2003-Oct-05, 02:27 AM
Boy, one thing I got to give you guys is that if you have nothing else, you do have imagination. :D

Most of the discussions here surrounding time travel seem involve one&#39;s personal presence, therefore personal involvement. Which brings about the paradox of killing your grandmother. Not that I would want to have killed my grandmother&#39;s because they were wonderful people. :P
Most of all they always took my side whenever I had a conflict with my parents. An added extra. :lol:

More serously though, back to the discussion with a thought provoking question.
What if time travel isn&#39;t so much a matter of what one can do, but rather what one can observe? :unsure:
Doing, implys involvement, which again runs headlong into the paradox. :(
But what if you can observe, without becoming involved. Then I would think possibilities begin to open up. <_<
So instead of trying to go through a door, why not just look out the window? :huh:

Consider the more then one hundred year old tale The Christmas Carol. That&#39;s the one about a 19th century English businessman named Scrooge, who encounters 3 different spirits, who take him to observe Christmas&#39;es in the past, present, and future.
You may recall from the story, that Scrooge and the spirit of Chrismas&#39;es Past were real, but what they observed of the past were shadows, or illusions. They themselves had not actually traveled into the past, but brought up a sensory representation of the past.

But when observing the present, Scrooge and the spirit of Christmas&#39;es Present became the shadows, undetectable by the people they were observing, which in turn made them unable to interact with those under observation, and therefore unable to change the time line by their actions at that moment.
This also keeps intact the notion of being able to exist in only one location at any one given time. Yet still being free to exist in many different locations at the same time.

Then with observing the future, Scrooge and the spirit of Christmas&#39;es Future became even more obscure in that both they, and what they were observing were shadows.
This gave substance and anwsered Scrooge&#39;s own question of &#39;if these are things as they will be, or things as they might be.&#39;

Then after these observations, Scrooge woke up thinking at first he had dreamed it all. But he now had the information he needed to change his whole life from that point on. Which he did, changing the reality of the present, and created a new and different future from his perspective.

Matthew
2003-Oct-05, 09:17 AM
If you go back in time and cannot change anything, are you really there?

Another way the time travel paradox could be overcome is if everytime something travels backward through time it goes into a different universe, one exactly the same to the one they have come from but the future isn&#39;t known (because the future hasn&#39;t existed yet, because your in a different universe). So the future of this universe changes depending on what you do.

Haglund
2003-Oct-07, 08:48 AM
Excuse me if I&#39;m completely wrong, but wouldn&#39;t time travel imply that everything that has been done and everything that will be done exists somewhere ("sometime")? Just a thought. I don&#39;t really know...

As for going back in time before I was born to kill an ancestor, possible or impossible?

If it is possible, it would, as far as I can see, imply that you existed before you were born, in a time when your grandmother existed but not your mother and certainly not you. Still, to kill your ancestor, you must exist. Especially if we agree that your grandmother existed before you did (do/will do, whatever). So perhaps she wasn&#39;t your ancestor, in which case the whole thing falls apart. Another possibility is that everything exists, even the past as well as the future, it&#39;s just a matter on how to get there. What if this meant that after you were born, you existed independently from your ancestors (true, in a sense), and that once you exist, it doesn&#39;t matter what you do to your ancestors, you will still exist because, well, you do.

If it is impossible, it might be because you can not go back in time at all to change the past. If your ancestor lived and was never killed by you, then certainly you exist. If you then go back in time to change the past, then you will no longer exist. What then will happen? Will you disappear into thin air? Will your brothers and sisters disappear? Or maybe you never existed, because your parents never existed. A paradox that can not be solved?

I do not think time travel is possible, but perhaps it is.

Another thing I just came to think of as a problem with time travel, is that when you go back in time, from T=0 to T=-2, even if you don&#39;t interfer but only observe, and you think you didn&#39;t change the future, you&#39;re wrong. Sure, maybe you didn&#39;t change the future that is from -2 to 0, but since you suddenly dissapeared from T=0, you will change the future of T>0. But then again, time travel would require the past, present and future to exist, all at once, right? In that case the whole world would be deterministic, and that would mean you wouldn&#39;t change anything, simply because you can&#39;t.

Also, we&#39;re made out of atoms and molecules that once made up other life forms. If you go back in time, will there then be several instances of the same atoms? How do we solve that delicate problem?

Matthew
2003-Oct-07, 09:23 AM
Maybe you can&#39;t.

Haglund
2003-Oct-07, 09:31 AM
If you go back in time and cannot change anything, are you really there?
Good question, and my answer is "no".


Another way the time travel paradox could be overcome is if everytime something travels backward through time it goes into a different universe, one exactly the same to the one they have come from but the future isn&#39;t known (because the future hasn&#39;t existed yet, because your in a different universe). So the future of this universe changes depending on what you do.
I&#39;ve read something about that. Maybe there would be an infinite number of universe almost like ours, but when you change history you really only go to another universe where the history is the way you changed it. In your own universe things would be the same (or would they? would you not be gone from that universe?) Interesting speculations.

Matthew
2003-Oct-07, 09:44 AM
I&#39;ve read something about that. Maybe there would be an infinite number of universe almost like ours, but when you change history you really only go to another universe where the history is the way you changed it. In your own universe things would be the same (or would they? would you not be gone from that universe?) Interesting speculations.

I think that you, your matter, your energy, would leave our current universe and go to this new time you are going to. You would essentially cease to exist in you &#39;home&#39; space-time universe and be totally in your newer universe. Your universe would essentially be the same, just one without a &#39;you&#39;.

Well thats what I believe.

rahuldandekar
2003-Oct-07, 09:50 AM
Talking about parrallel universes, isn&#39;t it possible that there may exist a universe in which the probablity of a certain person appearing from another universe is high? :unsure:
So, the person will invariably end up in that universe when he time travels. :(

Matthew
2003-Oct-08, 10:01 AM
Possible, but all the theories we have come up with would probably be all wrong because in truth we have no idea about time travel at all. We can create our paradoxes, we can create answers to get around those paradoxes but which answer is real. Is time travel real?

TwAgIssmuDe
2003-Oct-08, 11:52 AM
Maybe you are right matthew, we have only been creating more questions than answers about time travel. We always end up where we started, time travel may not be possible at all in reality.

imported_ROB
2003-Oct-09, 01:57 PM
I was under the illusion that light was as fast as anything travels, and that time is measured by how long light takes to go between two points...

if that is true then time travel would only be possible in one direction to the past. because if you wanted to go forward in to the future or back to your presant then you would have to travel faster than time therefore faster than light .... but

I was under the illusion that light was as fast as anything travels, and that time is measured by how long light takes to go between two points...

or am i way off the truth?

?????????????????????????????????????????

Matthew
2003-Oct-10, 09:29 AM
Rob, I&#39;ve never thought of it like that, but you would actually be moving into a different time (and maybe place) if you time traveled. How would you travel with time travel? Light travels between two distances, it travels through time, but only in its present, it is never in the future never in the past. But time travel would be an attempt to go into the future or past.

Well thats how I see it.

Arramon
2003-Oct-10, 03:13 PM
Dont forget you&#39;re talking about distance also...
On earth, we are too close to eachother to be able to move fast enough to travel the opposite direction inwhich the electro magnetic sources are... in effect, moving to a place before that light gets there.
How could we travel through Time when Time is a constant. It doesn&#39;t stop, doesn&#39;t evolve (at least of what we know), doesn&#39;t alter course, and isn&#39;t effected by any elemens that we know. To an individual, Time may seem to take awhile during a long day, or may go by fast when you&#39;re having fun. Relative to the individual.
But, to be able to travel through Time, this may not be possible. Because Time is an intangible thing. A name we gave the evolution of matter & space as it "progresses".
Can we stop this progression and still remain alive?
Can this progression be reversed? How does something progress backwards without taking away from what it progressed to?
What if the Universe decided to rotate opposite of its current spin?
(and that&#39;s assuming the Universe resembles a galaxy anywayz...)

People sometimes speak of the train and ball scenario...
But, this makes no sense when the applications for trying to travel Time seem to reside around the area of being improbable. What would be the target to travel to? Could we actually create a slipstream through the fabric of progression and move through it, to a place that once existed, but has evolved to another state of activity.
Superman flying around the Earth so fast that it stops its rotation and starts going the other way, reversing Time, saving Louis, and the world from harm.. yea&#33;&#33; =/ um..yeah.
Not only would that probably kill us, becaus of the changes on the magnetic fields and the alignment we have with the Moon, plus a tone of other catastrophes, but, it might also cause a rift in the plates below that could allow magma to spew forth... yes.. let us rip ourselves apart.
Okay.. that was just a movie. But, still... Moving faster than light may not be what we need.
Exchanging our forms for another might be needed. Becoming a state that is both flexible and durable against the aging of Time and the progression of it towards a further state. If we could study the existence of this progression from a state that does not progress, I guess is what I mean.

=/-~ hmmm....

Its hard enough to guess the outcome of me waking up in the morning.
=P

. ..-={A}=-.. .

Planetwatcher
2003-Oct-11, 04:01 PM
What about astro-projection?

I don&#39;t think physical time travel for a human is possible. At best perhaps some means of observing other time frames without the means of interfearing, and even then one can interfear if they look into the future and modify their own future.

Matthew
2003-Oct-13, 09:54 AM
I don&#39;t think thats possible. It could be, its just that I don&#39;t think it can be. I think its been covered further up in this post as well.

trekgoddess
2003-Oct-16, 10:14 PM
Time is aomething like God. A bunch of people believe sincerly in it without question simply, because the thought has been around so long. They possibly are what we think they are, but most likely not. For something that has been around so much longer than us, and will be around for as much if not more time after we have passed. For our history is just a day in the big scheme of things, maybe not even more than a minute. These short years of science have allowed us to experienced nothing in the great plan of the universe. IF only we could be given all the knowledge we want? oh, but what would be the fun in that?

Matthew
2003-Oct-17, 08:01 AM
Being given all the knowledge you could ask for would be nice, but at the same time it could be horrifying. There may be things in this universe that we humans are not yet capable to deal with...
:(

lordchronos
2003-Oct-26, 08:38 PM
Interested in this subject?

You can visit www.lordchronos.com (http://www.lordchronos.com) for an indepth website dedicated to the topic.

itsmebaby76
2003-Nov-04, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by ScottPithan@Jul 18 2003, 04:27 PM
Here&#39;s a new prospective. Perhaps time in the past does not exist any more. Most people treat the past like its a place that you can visit, kinda like a past memory. But, perhaps time in one dimentional, it just is in the present and moves on, kinda like in the movie "the langaliers" by Steve King. :blink:
I totally agree with this...
I don&#39;t think of time as a "thing." I don&#39;t think anything or anyone will ever be able to "escape" the present and jump back into a past.

Once it&#39;s there, it&#39;s gone.

Matthew
2003-Nov-05, 08:18 PM
Further up in this post I said:


I think that you, your matter, your energy, would leave our current universe and go to this new time you are going to. You would essentially cease to exist in you &#39;home&#39; space-time universe and be totally in your newer universe. Your universe would essentially be the same, just one without a &#39;you&#39;.

Well maybe thats wrong, maybe every attempt to &#39;time travel&#39; has been succesful, its just that a copy of your matter goes into the new universe. So the &#39;original&#39; you would think that time travel doesn&#39;t exist/doesn&#39;t work, while the &#39;new&#39; you knows that you succesfully time travelled.

Gerald Lukaniuk
2003-Nov-20, 01:36 AM
A disturbing corollary arises out of the scientists have strong evidence that they have sent a photon and therefore a simple communication a minuscule distance “back in time”. When applied to the dilemma ‘If time travel is possible then why aren’t we being visited by an ever increasing number of “beings” claiming to be from our future or even some type of communication from them.. The implication is being that because: we are not-=>it is not. The new evidence if it in fact proves that time travel is possible this opens up the other side of the dilemma to various other possibilities –so of them disturbing, some grand. The worst is that beings from are future are not communicating because they (or we) will never develop the technology. Since we are seemingly making progress toward developing the technology this implies that something of a permanent event and/or re-occurring events will always prevent this from happening. At the rate at which our progress seems to be accelerating it seems likely that we should be capable of time travel in less those 50 yrs but will be prevented by an “event” perhaps and most likely of a permanent nature. Although this “event” is concurrent with our attempts at time travel the logic does not necessarily follow that is it will be our attempts that cause the “event”. Indeed if time travel could say; unravel the universe then the above mentioned experiment would have already destroyed us. Optimistically it is also not implied that it will be a tragic event but may be something glorious that overrides or urge to time travel for the rest of the existence of life on this planet.

Matthew
2003-Nov-20, 06:41 AM
If &#39;events&#39; occured just before a race discovered how to time travel then something must control these events. That would mean there would be a supreme being.

biruk
2003-Nov-20, 08:13 AM
the possibility of time travel is as to my knowledge not completely
out of the ring..i mean still scientists argue on the topic ...but what
they agree upon is it is not possible for the time traveller to change the
past ...like killing his mother ...etc all sorts of crazy things ..
because the laws of physics assure the impossibilty of changing the
past................read IGOR NOVIKOV&#39;S ..the RIVER OF TIME...bye
Biruk from Ethiopia

imported_Draco
2003-Nov-20, 09:16 AM
Time travel not possible.
We create our futures by living in the present, there isn&#39;t a future ahead to travel into, if there was, 1 000 000 years into the future, we&#39;d exceed type III civilisation as that guy mentioned about civilisations how long they take to advance.
You could travel in the past, coz you could go back to a future that is already there.

But think about this, what if there is an advanced future, and time travel is possible, what if somebody traveled back to the dawn of time and changed something? Would we know about the change? Would we see the world change in front of our eyes? Was there more history to this world than we thought? A civilisation better than the Egyptians? Somebody could have changed all of that to fit his or her&#39;s desires?
Just think about that;) Is it possible?

peterhuybregts
2003-Nov-22, 01:59 PM
Time travelling has two sides

1 to the future
2 to the past

in the first everybody will be
in the second eveybody has been

Where everybody will be is easy to go to but you won&#39;t meet anyone and you will have to stay away from where you will be when everybody, wich includes you will be there.
Where everybody has been you have been to wich has led to who you are wich you cannot change, so you would have to deny yourself first.

Now going to the future :

let&#39;s say 2 weeks from now.

You step into a dimention wich takes you to a place in space where the earth will be on that date, you can remain there and learn about everything that is already decide to happen, but you must return before the world reaces it&#39;s place of keep moving ahead from it. I have experienced a simular thing where I went to 15 januari at new year&#39;s day, and to my knowledge was very suprised when someone much later told me that it was 15 januari, because I thought that had happened.
In this I Had the &#39;luck&#39; to not leave the room I was in all over that time ( I left is in the end of februari)

Crazy? I even did a test : I synchronised my clock with a clock on the street before nightfall & didn&#39;t look at both during the night in wich I stayed awake.
Then when my clock said twelf a clock (at day) I went to check the clock in the street & it said eleven &#39;o clock in the morning. To make sure it was not my batteries I synchronized the clocks again, and after another twenty-four hours they were still synchronised.

I cannot entirely explain this, all I know was that I knew what I was doing & had the feeling that dimentions shifted through my room that time.

Another thing : in no more than 6 weeks I was able to grow a full beard twice.....
(normally one takes me about 6 weeks) & when I left my room after 2 or three monts (&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;I was studieing) I felt as if I had been away for a year or something....

I only took this study to see if some of my theories about life, Universe, space & future were true, but in the end I learned far far far more than I could have ever expected, and some I&#39;m still beginning to understand (after six years)

I can tell you this : There is a place that, if you stay there, totally takes care for you, I had :
1 no hunger
2 no thirst
3 no sense of sleep
4 a full sense of the planetairian life (mostly at night)
5 A full vision of life living inside the Universe

Now I only know the dates & events that will happen to make this known.


Peter Pan
peterhuybregts@hotmail.com

Josh
2003-Nov-23, 03:12 AM
Peter Pan ... when you went from New Years day to the 15th of January ... is there any chance that you just had a really big new years and got really drunk and only woke up 2 weeks later?

Brian Sand
2003-Nov-23, 04:03 AM
If you succeed in killing grandma, maybe she already had a child? Maybe you didn&#39;t go far back enough in time? Maybe your parent was adopted? Maybe you killed somebody elses grandma by mistake? Maybe she didn&#39;t die and you just thought she did?

We talk about these things like we know. Even scientists aren&#39;t so brave as to make absolute claims. Very few things in this field have been tested. Even those haven&#39;t been tested anywhere close to a black hole.

Matthew
2003-Nov-23, 09:15 AM
I can tell you this : There is a place that, if you stay there, totally takes care for you, I had :
1 no hunger
2 no thirst
3 no sense of sleep
4 a full sense of the planetairian life (mostly at night)
5 A full vision of life living inside the Universe

If you had a full vision of life in the universe, where are they? Or are we the only ones in the universe?

Planetwatcher
2003-Nov-23, 10:33 PM
Boy, would Michael J. Fox like this string. :lol: Back to the Future. :ph34r:

imported_Draco
2003-Nov-23, 11:20 PM
Yes Back to the Future&#33; I love those movies&#33;:D

hagg3rty
2003-Nov-29, 04:56 AM
Want to learn about paradoxes go here

http://www.tribunaltheory.com

God
2003-Nov-30, 05:58 AM
Time travel is impossible at your stage of development. You&#39;d have to be me, and there can only be one me, and that&#39;s me, not you.

rahuldandekar
2003-Nov-30, 10:59 AM
Time travel into the future raises the question of determinism.
According to Quantum theory, the future cannot be exactly predicted.It is just a statistical statement listing the probablities that all the futures will happen.But if we travel into the future, which one will we travel to? If you say " the most probable one, of course" , what is the gaurantee that our future is the most probable one?
Isn&#39;t this a violation of the laws?

hagg3rty
2003-Nov-30, 05:23 PM
You guys have good ideas this site below is about time travel
you should post in that fourm and such



www.tribunaltheory.com

corkft
2003-Dec-04, 02:16 AM
Infinate number of universes, infinate number of timelines. Everything that has happened, is happening and will happen, co-exist. The only trouble is finding the right door to get to where you want to be. And being at this point in our evolution, we only know the door to the present. :wacko:

Matthew
2003-Dec-04, 07:42 AM
hagg3rty, please do not advertise other forums. Check out the rules here. (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1134)

What is the present? Everything we see is in the past, light takes time to reach us.

hagg3rty
2003-Dec-04, 09:02 PM
Im sorry I should have read the rules i apoligize

corkft
2003-Dec-05, 01:03 AM
I would say the present is what we each experience at the moment. So, Matthew, are you saying time is nothing more than distance? Is time limited to the speed of light? I think not. Perhaps looking into a mirror I am seeing myself as I was a fraction of a nanosecond ago, however what I experience is the present me. I was just looking at the word present, take it apart, PRE SENT. Perhaps you are right after all. :)

Is time a quantity to be measure or a quality to be enjoyed? As per Einstein, guess it&#39;s which hot think you are involved with , the stove or the babe.

Arramon
2003-Dec-05, 07:16 PM
time travel still seems like it may not be possible when you have a decay rate on everything.... losing composition & structure... matter and light included. Can we reverse the affects that the progression of Time places upon everything? To me, that seems like someone would need to halt the progression of the universe in order for this to happen. And we are farrrrrr from that... =P
Even if you travel so fast that you are going faster than light, and in essence you may arrive at a place before the light does, which may let you know what is coming, sort of foreshadowing your future... but how can we get to a place before its there when that place is in its own progressive state? Trees do make sounds when they fall if noone is there to hear it..
And to travel to the past... when its already past... how is that even conceivable? The past has already happened. Those lives are long gone and dead, along with anything that is behind us... How do we make ourselves recreate what once was as it once was? Everything that once was..... maybe in some sort of holo-room of the future... but I can&#39;t see our universe as a mirror of something else that is just a reflection of something that has happened or is going to happen....
We are living as a constant.. and moving upon a plane of existence that deals with placement of individual time-periods is more than we are capable of. o.O

hmmm...

Matthew
2003-Dec-06, 05:25 AM
And to travel to the past... when its already past... how is that even conceivable? The past has already happened. Those lives are long gone and dead, along with anything that is behind us... How do we make ourselves recreate what once was as it once was? Everything that once was..... maybe in some sort of holo-room of the future... but I can&#39;t see our universe as a mirror of something else that is just a reflection of something that has happened or is going to happen....
We are living as a constant.. and moving upon a plane of existence that deals with placement of individual time-periods is more than we are capable of. o.O


We could create the past. If every piece of matter affects each other, (eg. gravity), then you could measure every piece of matter. The sheer amount of data for a project like this is inconsevable, but if you could measure every piece of matter (including anti-matter), you could recreate the universe. And rewind it. So you could come to a point where you could create a scene in a particular place/particular time. There are only two things preventing this from working; quantum unpredictability, and choice. But it is doubtful that the public would get such technology if it were ever invented. Imagine how easy it would be to spy&#33; Just recreate a scene with someone talking, or someone writting instructions for an attack, you would know everything&#33;

rahuldandekar
2003-Dec-06, 05:59 AM
But what about the future?

P.S. I posted on page 4.

Matthew
2003-Dec-06, 07:05 AM
Well in theory if we had measured every particle in the universe, we could, ignoring chioce (maybe we could include choice), create the future. Though this would be a possible future, for on a quantum level things are only governed by a structured chance. (I.e. Things must follow certain laws.).

But a computer that could do something like that would need to be able to go though more information than we currently store on the whole Earth I think.

damienpaul
2003-Dec-20, 08:53 PM
A very disturbing mental image arose out the headache i got from reading all this ;) :lol: imagine the critters from the langoliers chasing michael j. fox in that car on his way to kill his grandma....frightening, gotta stop eating pizza after midnight.

Matthew
2003-Dec-21, 01:12 AM
Time travel is one of the hardest thing to get your head around.

damienpaul
2003-Dec-21, 03:48 AM
i wholeheartedly concur&#33; but it is one of the topics that cannot be let go&#33;

Kootenaistar
2003-Dec-22, 04:54 AM
Just a quick one here. Haven&#39;tt seen any reference to time-space continuum. It has been explained to me some, but my old peabrain can&#39;t explain it to you. Does it not slip in here somewhere? :unsure: Seems to me it should, or is that just what has been being argued here?

Arramon
2003-Dec-22, 03:41 PM
Say you could re-create everything... EVERYTHING. Planets, stars, black holes, nebulas, galaxies, more stars, more nebulas, more galaxies... blah blah, and all of the tiny, tiny, tiny miniscule events that happen every nano second... be able to rewind the progression of Time, as everything has happened so far (dont forget about Sue taking a coffee break at 4:15pm), all the way to the point that you might want to be...(nevermid the fact that a billionX1000 individual events were probably just erased, seeing as how we could never really know what happened in all places at all times...) and start the progression from that moment (How you kept yourself together & sane throughout this process is anyone&#39;s guess). That would be a fast & strong computer simulation, that no amount of processors we have today could accomplish, but it would still only be a simulation. How do you create stars? and blackholes? and galaxies?
"Stars form deep inside vast clouds of interstellar gas and dust called nebulae. In the cores of these intensely cold regions — only 10 degrees above absolute zero — the pressure from the heat of the gas is insufficient to support the weight of the surrounding cloud, which then begins to collapse on itself."
"There is evidence both in our own Milky Way galaxy and in other galaxies that large black holes occupy the centers. At the center of the Milky Way, for example, the presence of a massive black hole is the only reasonable explanation for the great velocities of stars orbiting the core."
"The visible matter in the universe that makes up the familiar structures of the galaxies are: Hydrogen: 72-75%, Helium: 23-26%, All Other Elements: < 2. While the process of nuclear fusion has very slightly increased the quantities of helium — and produced almost all of the other elements present — these figures are practically unchanged since the earliest years of our universe."
So how do you simulate & actually recreate that?
To me... thats to much for even my imaginary processes to conceive, let alone think that I could possibly alter any of it.
But, I&#39;m glad my imagination works anywayz =)
Its fun to think that we can... who knows? Maybe one of these galactic millenia we might...
Or else another species within a different part of the universe does before us, and tries to aletr things, and forgets, or doesn&#39;t know that we exist/existed at all, and restarts the progression of space/time without us in it. oi&#33;&#33;&#33;

. ..-={Arramon}=-.. .

damienpaul
2003-Dec-22, 04:20 PM
The changes to history will have an indeed inexplicable and likely to be dangerous effect. Also, if the time loop theory is true then, changing the future could have a profound effect also.

Planetwatcher
2003-Dec-22, 07:32 PM
Arramon, that is deeper then even I want to think about. ;)

Littlemews
2003-Dec-22, 11:06 PM
Past is only just a memory, and future is our imagination....
There is no time travel exist, if they do exist, ppls in the future they might travel back to this Era and change the history...too bad there is none. <_<

Matthew
2003-Dec-23, 12:57 AM
A simulation would have to calculate every quantum function, with nothing more than a chance that something might happen, then there is choice. Could it simulate choice?

damienpaul
2003-Dec-23, 04:20 AM
Could it simulate choice?

that would have to be a seriously powerful probability generator

fortyseven
2003-Dec-31, 03:03 AM
You can&#39;t argue against time travel by saying we haven&#39;t met any time travelers. Ppl argue the same about aliens. You aren&#39;t disproving anything you&#39;re just narrowing the possibilities (i.e time travelers haven&#39;t visited-aliens haven&#39;t visited or can&#39;t)

Time travel is possible and I know how to do it. I&#39;ll explain more in my next post.

Hydrok
2003-Dec-31, 05:10 AM
Well i cant believe that i&#39;m going to do this but....

Michael Chricton does extensive research on the topics he discuses in his books, look at the back 20 pages and you see book after book, source after source, that backs his claims. So i wouldent totaly slam Chricton to fast.

apocalypse
2003-Dec-31, 10:03 PM
Well when you look at general science fiction,it makes time travel look stupid,every film out there is plain stupid in its unexplained state,you have to fill in the blanks for the failed physics inside the story.

Terminator being an example:

The terminator is sent back to kill sarah o conner,the mother of john o conner,the mission is to destroy the mother so that john is never born.

Now you have a slight problem here cos should the terminator succeed there will have been no reason for the terminator to have been sent back in the first place.

Your other problem is what revealed in the sequel where kyle reese the protector of sarah in the first movie is john o conners father&#33;

OH DEAR

Why does this make no sense to me you wonder,
well there must have been a time where kyle reese WAS NOT john o conners father RIGHT?

I mean before skynet interfered and sent the terminator back there HAS to be the time line in existence somewhere where there was no terminator or kyle reese,but there still has to be a john o conner.

The only way time travel really works in this or any other situation is to think of many histories/many universes,so theres not just one time line getting interferred with.

So you can go back and kill your grandfather so long as youre not affecting your existence,in the case of many histories/parallel universes you wont be cos theres universes where you dont exist anyway,theres universes where your grandfather dont exist,so long as this is the case there shouldnt be a problem with time travel,otherwise in a single universe/timeline i find it more than difficult to swallow.

Nuradnan
2004-Jan-28, 06:11 AM
Let us say that Time Travel is possible. But, Mr. Time Traveller is moving "forward" in time when he do it. He just "arrives" at his "past-date", not his "past-time".

Okay, I must wake up now.

jimmy
2004-Jan-28, 07:17 AM
:) To last post incorporate music to "Twilight Zone". :)

Matthew
2004-Feb-04, 06:00 AM
Could it be that all time is interrealated. And what happens in the future affects our past, and present.

damienpaul
2004-Feb-04, 08:52 AM
Like a time loop, matthew?

I have heard of time loop theories before, but not much and not recently, perhaps someone can elaborate on it for me.

Faulkner
2004-Feb-04, 09:09 AM
Past is only just a memory, and future is our imagination....

That&#39;s quite profound, Littlemews. It implies that our concepts of time are completely illusionary, there is only "now"&#33;

I have often wondered if "time" is real or a fabrication we&#39;ve created in our heads...reinforced by our seeming OBSESSION with the ticking of artificial seconds in a mechanical clock...just look at how regulated society makes itself...everything on schedule, deadlines to meet, alarm clocks set to get up for work... This obsessive self-regulation, surely there&#39;s something pathological about it??

Faulkner
2004-Feb-05, 04:16 PM
Maybe time travel is real? Check out this news story&#33; (http://tv.yahoo.com/news/wwn/20030319/104808600007.html) :blink:

conandro
2004-Feb-15, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by TwAgIssmuDe@Jul 17 2003, 07:58 PM
Some time in the future an insane scientist goes back in time to kill his own grandmother, but how can he had existed to go back and kill his grandmother if she had already been killed?
Makes me wonder if time travel is even possible in theory or fact.
look, i am new one here...
i work in a special secret time travel department - i am the maneger of the expiriments to time travel.
if you know some stuff that can help me, please telll that to me.
my email is: dima2003k@yahoo.com

1. what you said now is a real paradox.
2. i think when someone travel in time the universe redoubeling it self
and this somone get to the present of the ather diamention.
the place he left stay as it was&#33;

thank you for reading this.
conandro 111636.

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-Feb-18, 08:01 PM
I all aprecciate your responses and quite amazed of the theories of some of you have come up with.
They have given me a new view on the whole issue, anyway heres is another interresting theori that I saw on a space/time travel program (discovery science).

This theori includes the possibilty of multiverses excisting in order for the theori to work.
You may travel back in time and change history, but as soon as you travel back in a timeline you will end up being trapped in a parallel universe where history is different and cannot return to your&#39;s since you are trapped in that one.
Which may mean that there are time travellers here but are trapped in this universe in the past or future timeline and can&#39;t return to their universe.
This leaved the fact that there are universes where parallel selves have been erased, but exist multiplically in one universe but scattered between timelines.

Interresting eh ;)

Hoore500
2004-Feb-18, 10:55 PM
What I don&#39;t understand about this whole theory of travelling back in time is that following my own insight you need information to reconstruct things of the past, and universe has no memory, so how can you go to the past? Unless maybe if you couple a time machine to a computer that has the information in it.
I suppose this is no very physical way of reasoning, but I&#39;m reading about the subject till I understand it. I study black holes and time theories, but till now I only understand you can travel to the future, nothing is as easy as that in fact: get into your bed and sleep for a hundred years and you awake as many years further in the future. :lol:
Hoore500.
Moon site message board (http://moonsite.proboards19.com)

timetraveler_0
2004-Feb-19, 11:26 PM
ok this is not john titor i am an a person who wants to know if john titor actually existed or if he is a fake it all started about november 2000 and ended in spring of 2001 john claimed he was from the future and if this is true then he is or was the smartest person in or thime line because of all the stuff he knew if u want to know more check out this site WWW.johntitor.com

Neal W. Syrette
2004-Feb-23, 01:24 AM
This is my perception of time travel...

Sure its possible, nothings impossible, the probability of doing anything is one in infinity, quite improbable but still possible (most people will say it doesn&#39;t take as much for something to happen but they fail to admit any other possibilities that they can&#39;t see, they still exist though, leading to the infinite). I guess its all how one looks at it. One person will see the infinite amount of possibilities it takes to do one action (say cause an earthquake by sheer will of mind) and think its impossible. This person doesn&#39;t get anywhere because they defeated themselves before they even started (the mind was made for one reason, to understand). Another will "understand" that they only need the one to happen while understanding that all the other possibilities exist (they may not know what they all are but they don&#39;t disclude them, acceptance). That "one" is their choice to happen (we&#39;re given free choice for a reason).

Now with that said, time. You exist in the past (what did you do yesterday?), present (what are you doing right now?) and the future (what are you going to do tommorrow?). Just think about those questions in the form of an idea (general) to better understand (to start you thinking that way, acceptance). The past is made up of the finite, the future is made up of the infinite and the present is the nexus inbetween (we exist in the present because the other two meet here, we are a total sum of them both, balance). Simplified, this gives us 1(past, finite), 0 (present, or equal) and "8"(future, infinite, I used the "8" to represent the infinity symbol, just picture it on its side). Ergos, 1="8" and there you have the equation for time. The equation is "ordered" (structure) while in itself "chaotic" (how can 1 equal infinity?), which satisfies two universal constants (Order/Chaos or balance).

stevo_jimmy
2004-Feb-23, 02:30 PM
Time travel into the future is already sort of possible. If like Walt Disney you had you&#39;re body completely frozen (talking cryogenics here) preferably before you died you would not age (much), and could be thawed out years into the future, only problem is that there is no safe way to do this yet. I know this is not the type of time travel aimed at here, thought I&#39;d mention it as an alternative to all the theories as something which may actually be possible in the foreseable future. Although getting back may prove to be rather tricky&#33;

Geekstronaut
2004-Feb-27, 05:01 AM
I once slammed the "time-travel" question on one of my friends at work. I asked him what he thought of time travel, and if it&#39;s possible and all that. He just thinks for about 5 seconds and sais. "Aww that&#39;s all a bunch&#39;o bull s***. Time doesn&#39;t even exist, it&#39;s just a measurement that humans made up." And there I was - totally stricken. I was such a firm believer in time travel, yet this guy just makes one plain statement that makes perfect sence...to me at least.


So there. What if he&#39;s right. WHY DOES time even have to exist for it to be travelled through??? I mean, just because our watches tell the hour, and day changes to night, doesn&#39;t mean that they are all driven by some unfathomable current that is time. It could really just be something we ourselves imagined.


So before any more debates and theories and formulas about time travel are ever created, let those geniuses figure out if time actually exists. Call me in about oh, say, a billion years, when no one will still know what time is.


There i said my piece, for what it&#39;s worth ;)

You can imagine that now I am not such a big time travel believer any more.

Arramon
2004-Feb-27, 05:51 PM
I stick with my original theory.. that time is just a progression of things around us... you can&#39;t move the universe in reverse, so you can&#39;t move back to a state that has already happened. Like a supernova. Its exploded and can&#39;t be reimploded back together. or... I cut myself. Can i move so fast that i didn&#39;t cut myself? not really. I could just be more careful =P

Finding a &#39;slip-stream&#39; through the essence of here and now, may take human kind finding a whole new set of physical properties that we didn&#39;t even realize existed.
Like a different state of being. Where the energies within us aren&#39;t kept within a physical body, but can be transmitted, like electric impulses, with our own signatures imprinted withn them.

thats going to another subject way out there, so i&#39;ll stop here.. =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

Geekstronaut
2004-Feb-27, 07:24 PM
Ok, time actually IS a progression of things. But one that we THINK exists. I mean, it&#39;s hard to explain. I think it only exists in our imaginations, fuelled by our desire of mystical and unexplained things to be real.

If you stop the galaxy from spinning, or turn it spinning backwards, it does not mean that time will reverse. Or if Superman circles the earth at the speed of light and manages to revers its rotation, time won&#39;t turn around. The probable effect is some screwed up weather - can&#39;t imagine anything else happening. Take Venus for instance. Our Solar Systems planets go around our Sun counter-clockwise. Almost all of them also rotate bout their axes counter-clockwise. Venus rotates clockwise however (actually so does Pluto and Uranus). But we don&#39;t see time going backwards on them. The Russian probe sent to land on Venus (Venera i think it was called) didn&#39;t immediately shoot back up following the time.

So that being said, I really do not think the heavenly body motions are in any way related to time. They are physical effects these bodies exert on eachother. If there is an actual time, say, in form of a force or parralel reality or WHATEVER then it does not affect us as deeply as we think.

That&#39;s my "theory".
:blink:

Littlemews
2004-Feb-27, 08:10 PM
Actually Time is everything. If time doesn&#39;t exist, there will be no big bang.
This is what I thhink : The order of the universe
Time - Light - Heat - Particles - Big bang - objects - us

Matthew
2004-Feb-29, 10:53 PM
No, everything came into exsistance at the big bang. What came before that we cannot know.

Geekstronaut
2004-Mar-03, 12:17 AM
Exactly&#33; The Big Bang, as far as I know, was not originated by nothingness. There WAS this infinitely small and infinitely dense little speck (according to theory) that somehow exploded into our universe. But that says that there WAS something before it all began. There was something before the Big Bang that started the Big Bang. But this is all speculation of course - as is any theory about time and such manner of things.

How can anyone say "time is everyhting" wiht such certainty. How does it manifest itself? Surely it isn&#39;t the fact that living beings age, planets revolve and rotate and the Universe is expanding. All of those are just forces in action. Normal forces acting upon all mater to create this soup of events.

In short, I will only begin believing in "time"&#39;s existance when someone proves it...phisically and observationally. Of course i might - and probably won&#39;t - be around when THAT happens, but it is possible in my oppinion. If tere is a time, then all the predictions Einstein made will have to come true. Such as, someone travelling at &#39;near-speed-of-light&#39; velocities will experience little or no aging, while the rest of the universe will "age" proportionally to the distance travelled. Now i might be wrong, because my memory on these assumptions is scetchy, but please correct me if i&#39;m wrong about these things.

But lets keep in mind that, right now there is no right or wrong answer to the question of time, for there is no way to prove someone is correct or erronious :)

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-03, 04:15 AM
Imagine a future world wreaked with the environmental destruction caused by the burning and overuse of fossil fuels.

In a last ditch effort, the dwindling resources of a dying civilization creates one last invention, a time machine.

A single person is sent back in time with the sole purpose of warning the worlds&#39; brightest minds in an effort to stave off the destruction of their world.

But there is one fatal flaw in the plan. The trip back through time has scrambled his brain. He can&#39;t remember his purpose.

He finds himself sitting in front of a computer reading this message.

What are you going to do to save the world, the message pleads?

What are you going to DO? :(

Faulkner
2004-Mar-04, 02:25 AM
What can I or any individual possibly do? Terrorism? Write a letter to the editor?

You can&#39;t fight the Machine.

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-04, 03:45 PM
Faulkner, we are the Machine.

I wish I had this Napolean quote exactly[move a single grain of sand on the beach and you can change the entire face of the continent].

Problem-Oil: Burning it adds to greenhouse gases, global warming...We are going to run out of oil and don&#39;t want to switch to dirtier coal.
Solution: If we are going to have to try alternatives eventually, start sooner. Be efficient, use less, let the petro guys make plastics which they can recycle and resell and they will be richer and happier too.

Problem-Terrorism: In countries where we do business and have influenced the culture, the poorest of the poor, with nothing to lose, are being influenced to blow themselves and others up. (Much more extreme than the Bhuddists monks who immolated themselves to protest the war in Vietmam).

I heard that the terror cells in the U.S. were having a hard time finding volunteers to blow themselves up, because, possibly, they had a bit more to live for.

Solution: Use technology appropriately, demonstrate/practice it with the space development projects if you wish. And, this is important...see to it that it is shared with everyone on the planet. Bring the poorest up a bit, and maybe some of the desperation will fade a bit.

Buckminster Fuller(geodesic dome) in the late 30&#39;s, early 40&#39;s calculated that there are enough resources on this earth, if used properly, to make every man, woman and child a millionaire.

The book, &#39;Solar Sails&#39;(Robert Forward?) and &#39;Colonies in Space&#39; {by T.A.Heppenheimer) suggest that even modest use of even small asteroidal bodies would make every man, woman and child the equivalent of a billionaire.

Millionaires and billionaires usually have their days pretty full and don&#39;t go around home-invading, robbing convenience stores or blowing themselves up to make a point. They will use advertisers and lawyers to get your money, but that&#39;s another topic. :D

Faulkner
2004-Mar-05, 04:48 AM
Buckminster Fuller(geodesic dome) in the late 30&#39;s, early 40&#39;s calculated that there are enough resources on this earth, if used properly, to make every man, woman and child a millionaire.


I totally agree. That&#39;s why there&#39;s a lot of hate & anger within me. Because it isn&#39;t shared properly. People are getting butchered while others are snorting cocaine in penthouse apartments.

On a lighter note... :P ... I think the "scramjet" idea is a fantastic idea. It&#39;s being tested here in Australia with a lot of international support & sponsorship. It only needs a bit a fuel to accelerate it to the point where oxygen in the atmosphere itself can be "scrammed" into its jets & ignited under pressure to provide continuous thrust...even into orbit, apparently. The only "exhaust" is H20&#33;

http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/images/hyp_logo2.jpg

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-05, 05:06 AM
My father was an instructor in the Air Force in the early 60&#39;s, teaching Atlas and Titan, andused to bring home the diagrams of the vehicles showing their cross-sections and systems layouts. I had just reached the point of understanding about Oxygen in the air, and I&#39;m seeing the Oxygen tank in the diagram. So, I draw another picture with a small scoop at the top of the vehicle leading down to the valves by the engine and asked my dad if that would work. "Why didn&#39;t they just use the oxygen in the air?"

He gave me a real special look, I guess he was pleased that I was connecting the dots, and said, "Well, they&#39;re working on it, it&#39;s called a Scramjet, but it looks like it might take awhile."

When you mention Scramjets, it brings back a great memory. Thanks, Faulkner&#33;

I recently checked out a book from the library on the development history of the Space Shuttle. Of course, everything was in it, including lots of stuff on scramjets. They have been a long time in coming, and I am glad Australia is taking the lead.

You wouldn&#39;t happen to know how to contact the group, would you? And how did you get the icon in the posting, did you just copy it and paste it in? How do I paste in a graphic for my avatar, do you know?

Anyway, great example of efficiency for something which really could use it.

Arramon
2004-Mar-05, 03:30 PM
Link to Scramjet images (http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/images)

Link to Hypersonic homepage (http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/)

=)

.-={A}=-.

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-05, 05:28 PM
Thanks for the links Arramon, are you getting a copy of these to Devilmech for his project?

slartibartfarst
2004-Mar-13, 12:24 AM
Being a newbie, timorously I would like to propose quantum / parralel theorem.
Also, synchronicity. If it has already been covered, (pardon the pun)I do apologise. :rolleyes:

antoniseb
2004-Mar-13, 12:42 AM
I imagine that if you could transmit your atoms back in time, that the mass of the universe would increase by the mass sent back in time, for the period of overlap, and that, if done often enough, this would cause the universe to slip off its delicate balance, and slowly collapse.

Geekstronaut
2004-Mar-17, 12:37 AM
Out of sheer curiosity and need for amusement i watch the TV series "Stargate SG-1" - a spinoff from the movie Stargate. A lot of interesting ideas in the series, but it looks kind of silly. Anyway, in one episode they had a wormhole connecting another stargate in the galaxy with theirs and when they went through it they got sent back in time. Well, my point is i guess. Could the ubiquidous wormhole hypotheses somehow play a role in timetravel?

If you have not seen any SG-1 episodes, or the movie this will probably not make much sense to you - sorry&#33; :unsure:

Anden
2004-Mar-20, 08:54 PM
Hey there&#33;

I&#39;m Anden, and I can travel through time. I know a lot about the physics and so on involved and I&#39;ll be happy to share everything I know. I don&#39;t understand much about the current theories and so on here so I might have some trouble keeping up for a while at least until I get settled.

I arrived here last year and I expect to say maybe another three years. I&#39;m just looking around on the internet getting to know the people and so on. Obviously I&#39;ve come here to converse with people who share my interests and offer the information I have about the universe and life in general.

Anden.

damienpaul
2004-Mar-21, 12:28 AM
This sounds very familiar with whats-his-name...are you related to the other one that allegedly came from the future..ah yes, John Titor....

Faulkner
2004-Mar-21, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Anden@Mar 20 2004, 08:54 PM
Hey there&#33;

I&#39;m Anden, and I can travel through time. I know a lot about the physics and so on involved and I&#39;ll be happy to share everything I know. I don&#39;t understand much about the current theories and so on here so I might have some trouble keeping up for a while at least until I get settled.

I arrived here last year and I expect to say maybe another three years. I&#39;m just looking around on the internet getting to know the people and so on. Obviously I&#39;ve come here to converse with people who share my interests and offer the information I have about the universe and life in general.

Anden.
Welcome to the 21st century, Anden&#33; I, too, am a time traveller from the year 6666 AD&#33; What year are you from?

damienpaul
2004-Mar-21, 04:11 AM
Ok, I feel sufficiently inspired to say that I am from 6969AD - and woah, what a time it is&#33;&#33;&#33;

MystiqueX
2004-Mar-21, 08:43 AM
I don&#39;t know much about physics or cosmology and less about time related experiments or theories other than general ideas, but there&#39;s one thing (actually more than one) that bugs me. It makes perfect sense that a time travel into the future is possible. All you would need is a vehicle able to go almost as fast as the speed of light or some sort of device to take you near a black hole, keep you there untill for everybody else it&#39;ll have been the period of time that you intend to travel throu and get you away from the black hole.
But travelling into the past - that I don&#39;t get. If you try to make the time flow backwards it would result in turning back the clock, but nobody&#39;d know - not even you - so there&#39;s no point in doing it. If you try to travel a lot faster than the speed of light and try to go back just in "time to be in the past" doesn&#39;t really make sense eigther because the light went off the same time time you did so at best it didn&#39;t travel at all... Let&#39;s say you are able to build a machine that can dematerialize your body and get you to an identical machine that is in the past. Sounds lovely, but the machine in the past would have to be able to put you back together atom by atom - but it read your structure in the future so it doesn&#39;t know it yet. well.. maybe they could also send the intructions on how to make you whole again. Come to think of it time travel - into the past or the future - might one day be possible. Yet we have a long time before that happends and I&#39;m not so sure it would be of much use...

Anden
2004-Mar-21, 03:00 PM
6666 AD?
:P
Don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever been in that area, I&#39;ll try it. :D

I don&#39;t come from any year your calendars would show. I come from the past though, not the future.

No I&#39;m not related to John Titor in any way. His site was interesting though thanks for mentioning him to me.

MystiqueX, you are allowing the technology and general way of thinking of your time to restrict you. Forget for a moment everything you&#39;ve been taught, and think about it again.

I am the only being that will ever be able to travel &#39;backwards&#39; in time, if it helps.

There is a method for travelling into the future I can teach you if you really want to do it. A black hole is a tiny little ball with a mass so excessively great that its gravity is strong enough to drag almost anything in the nearby area into itself.

Anden.

MystiqueX
2004-Mar-21, 05:48 PM
I am the only being that will ever be able to travel &#39;backwards&#39; in time, if it helps.
Sure... how stupid of me to think otherwise... :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS: I do know what a black hole is - or at least what it is belived to be. My knowledge may be limited, but not that limited :P

damienpaul
2004-Mar-21, 09:51 PM
But in my time, i.e. 6969 AD - you better bring summer clothing and get ready for the party taht has been happening since Faulkner&#39;s time...:lol: sorry for the sarcasm, but I never believed the john titor story nor am i believing your story anden.

Algenon the mouse
2004-Mar-22, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by damienpaul@Mar 21 2004, 04:11 AM
Ok, I feel sufficiently inspired to say that I am from 6969AD - and woah, what a time it is&#33;&#33;&#33;

And do they still have breathable air? Do tell&#33;

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-Mar-22, 07:59 PM
Out of sheer curiosity and need for amusement i watch the TV series "Stargate SG-1" - a spinoff from the movie Stargate. A lot of interesting ideas in the series, but it looks kind of silly. Anyway, in one episode they had a wormhole connecting another stargate in the galaxy with theirs and when they went through it they got sent back in time. Well, my point is i guess. Could the ubiquidous wormhole hypotheses somehow play a role in timetravel?

I too do watch the TV series of "Stargate SG-1". I remember that episode "1969".
They go through the stargate as usual on a mission, but they end up in 1969, the actual fault that they do travel back in time is that a solarflare errupted from the suns surface at the same time they activate the wormhole. The solarflare alteres the actual path of of the wormhole and somehow bends the spacetime quantinum around it, therefore the wormhole sends them back in time. ( The whole stuff is explained by major Carter later in the episode ).
I don&#39;t really understand the mecanics behind this science fictional event. Maybe its just pure science fiction.
Anyway cool series ;)

Geekstronaut
2004-Mar-23, 12:02 AM
:D I am THRILLED...T H R I L L E D I SAY, to find that some one else shares an interest in the SG 1 series. Heh, it really is fun to watch, with all the theories they come up with - GaWd&#33; what an imagination. Right on bro&#39; &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol:

But going back to MystiqueX&#39;s comment from earlier (hope i got ur name right dude LOL), i totally agree. I can conceptualize time travel in a forward motion - go meet your grandson/daughter in the future and tell him/her how cool the 90&#39;s really were, and so on and so forth. But good point regarding backeard time-travel. I mean, it&#39;s not like every nanosecond of the universe&#39;s 13.7 billion years of history are recorded on some perpetual 10000000000000000000000 Gigabite DVD :lol: &#33;&#33;&#33; To go back in time you would sorta&#39; have something to go back TO. But since it already happened that kinda screws the theory. Whereas future...well I can imagine how some unknown process may generate future events out of current happenings. I cannot however be convinced that the same would work for dah&#39; past.

Well here&#39;s my 2 uneducated cents in the debate. Enjoy &#33; LOLZ

Tom2Mars
2004-Apr-04, 06:20 AM
I enjoy Stargate too&#33; Although, have you noticed that whenever Major Carter takes a liking to someone, they meet their demise before the end of the episode. I guess that means you have to be very special to deal with the interests of a strong, smart woman.

Hmmm...Darnded if I can figure out how to get back to the topic of time travel now. :o

Faulkner
2004-Apr-04, 06:57 AM
Time travel. Light travels at a fixed velocity, right? So everything you see out your own eyes is in the past (even if only a quintillionth of a second ago). Which means YOU are at the "edge" of the universe&#33; But so am I? And that other person over there? So already we have 3 completely different spacetime events&#33;&#33;&#33;

Explain, please.

Geekstronaut
2004-Apr-08, 04:38 PM
That&#39;s right Faulkner. We only "see" things because light traveled around and bounced around a medium and hit the back of our eye. And yes we kinda do live on the edge, come to think of it. Like, when you look at yourself in a mirror, you see what is happening right now. But if you, immediately after that, step outside and look at a star, you see light that originated from it, say, 50 000 years ago. So we kinda DO get a taste of present, past and future at the same time. -> You look at a star and see it as its light reaches you at a given moment, yet you wonder how long ago the light left the star, AND you wonder what it REALLy looks like right now - maybe it&#39;s gone....


This is more of a phylosophical perspective. Personally i would love to see more technical talk arounde here (not that i hold any authirity to request this). I think it would be more phun to fantasize of how time travel could be made possible. Why just the other day I saw an episode of "Justice League" where Superman got sent into the future and then back again. Wonder how the authors could tackle the explanation of how their cartoony time machine worked LOL.

Anywayz....i&#39;m babbling. Peace&#33; :)

David S
2004-Apr-09, 04:45 AM
Here is a view on time travel that I haven&#39;t seen discussed here. Stephen Hawking describes it in one of his books.

First, you need a wormhole (don&#39;t all time travel theories start off with one?)

Now, with this particular wormhole one end is here on earth, while the "exit" side is on a spaceship. So you take this spaceship with the wormhole exit and you zoom around at very, very close to the speed of light for a while (but you have to make sure that for practicle purposes when your done, you&#39;ve ended up back at earth). Due to time dialation, time on board the spaceship will move at a much slower rate then back on earth. To put some numbers to this, lets say the spaceship is going fast enough that after 2 hours, 5 years has passed back on earth.

So now you walk through the end of the wormhole that has been on earth, which is now in the year 2009 AD. But when you exit, the exit side of the wormhole has only aged 2 hours. Which will mean that when you walk out of the wormhole, you will be on the spaceship in the year 2004 AD, but 2 hours later&#33; Ta-da&#33; time travel&#33;


Of course, this means that you can only travel to a time after your time machine has been built. So if you build it in 2004 AD, you can travel back to 2004 AD, but not before that. There are a few points with this idea that I don&#39;t understand, such as how you "move" one end of a wormhole. But I felt it was an intresting idea nonetheless.

Oh, and time travel into the future is very easy. I&#39;ve done it before. In fact, I am doing it right now. It takes a little while, but in one hour I will have traveled one hour into the future&#33;&#33; See you all there&#33;

Faulkner
2004-Apr-09, 04:15 PM
AstroWannabe, while you&#39;ve aged 1 hour, I&#39;ve aged 2.

SEE YOU IN HELL, MY FRIEND&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

:P

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-09, 05:44 PM
AstroWannabe, while you&#39;ve aged 1 hour, I&#39;ve aged 2.

SEE YOU IN HELL, MY FRIEND&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Faulkner, you&#39;re such a pedant (but a funny one). I haven&#39;t read the whole thread cos i&#39;m knackered. The thing that interests me most about the concept of time travel is the whole paradox thing that you could create (supposing we could go back as well as forwards). :huh:


whenever Major Carter takes a liking to someone, they meet their demise before the end of the episode. And Tielk (can&#39;t spell it&#33;) either nearly dies or is senteced to death or something like that every episode&#33; :P


I guess that means you have to be very special to deal with the interests of a strong, smart woman.
Ain&#39;t that the truth&#33; ;)

Anden
2004-Apr-10, 12:47 PM
Sorry I haven&#39;t been around for a while.

You don&#39;t believe me? Nooooo&#33; Just kidding. The people who don&#39;t believe in time travel are the most interesting to talk to (from a time traveller&#39;s perspective) :lol:


Sure... how stupid of me to think otherwise...

Indeed&#33;

Has anyone heard of the HDR? It was invented by a guy called Stephen Gibbs and apparently allows your to &#39;remote view&#39; events in the past and future, although these viewings usually display scenes from a different parallell universe or something like that, which I believe is the excuse for them always being wrong :D

To my understanding it just induces unnatural theta brainwave patterns that, as is common knowledge, just follow your thought processes, and since to use the machine you have to think about the time you want to view, I think it is safe to say it&#39;s only really useful if you feel like frying your own brain.

But try it out if you want :blink:

I got a video of this Stargate SG1 series from the video rental near me and found it pretty interesting. Did you know there was a movie about it as well? Anyway, the blue stuff in the stargate when it comes on looks really nice to touch, you know what I mean?

galaxygirl
2004-Apr-10, 01:56 PM
I love stargate SG-1&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I own the movie, the DVD box sets, everything&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Along with Star Trek, it is the best show ever. :D :D :D :D :D

Back to time travel... :P

I have heard of the HDR, but the idea of having a remote view of your past and future is just silly. :blink: It would be cool if it worked, though. :)

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-10, 02:11 PM
I haven;t heard of an HDR. :huh:

Please enlighten me guys :)

KeiZka
2004-Apr-10, 04:54 PM
hello all, don&#39;t be too judgy if i have lot of mistakes in text, i&#39;m from culture where other languages are frowned upon...

anyway, i think timetraveling is possible, though it is so restricted that only earth government officials can use it. it is done with extreme care etc. things, so maybe there is time travelers among us: they&#39;ve just hid themselves from public.

hmm... who&#39;s knockin&#39; my door? uh oh, bad men in black coats....

galaxygirl
2004-Apr-10, 05:10 PM
Welecome to the UT forum KeiZka&#33; I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll enjoy it. I want to go to that nice red ball in your avatar too&#33; :D

I definately believe in time travel to the future, but I dont understand how we can get to the past. :huh:

Anden
2004-Apr-11, 08:13 PM
This is probably incredibly pointless as you have no reason to believe me.

The United States Government (which I assume you were referring to?) has a lot less power than a lot of people think. If you have heard of the Montauk project, Roswell incident and countless other such things, they are nothing more than petty set-ups to increase control and power over U.S citizens. A lot of government made but so called authentic first person accounts from those involved in the &#39;Philadelphia&#39; experiments and Montauk project have been spread around the internet recently because of civil unrest brought about by the atrocities being performed by the F.B.I to keep the country under tighter control during the current time of nuclear holocaust risk from the East.

Anden
2004-Apr-11, 08:23 PM
The first Earth colonised cities begin to appear on (or rather under the surface of) Mars around 2150. By 2206 a tenth of the area under Mars is populated, and the city of Tarali is completed. Tarali is Mar&#39;s only surface city, contained within huge transparent glass like bubbles. It is an indescribably beautiful place, blooming with lush plant and animal life. The sky is deep black-blue (UV protection in the bubbles) with a faint red glow on the horizon. Fantastic sunsets.

Mars forcefully seperates from United Earth (the global Earth alliance that colonised it) in 2258 and forms its own government.

KeiZka
2004-Apr-11, 10:35 PM
i hope that would be true... i meant Earth as whole; not petty U.S. Government in my post... anyway, future would be... quite different if i aqcuired time traveling means myself (or even if i used them, it wouldn&#39;t perhaps change this reality; mayhaps some else reality (like where titanic arrived NYC, nazis won 2nd world war etc.))

Anden
2004-Apr-13, 10:25 PM
(like where titanic arrived NYC, nazis won 2nd world war etc.))

I expect it would be extremely difficult to make changes like this during time travel into the &#39;past&#39;. I once did a test where I went to a certain date (last century in fact) and did a very thorough observation (four years) and then went 50 years back to the same area and spent ten years there doing the same things I always do (like this :P ) if a little more affectively (for the test). I then returned to the start of my four years observation and performed exactly the same set of tests for four years again in exactly the same place. There were no differences between the results whatsoever.

If I travel to a time I have already visited, my past self is removed from that time and my actions replace his.

StarLab
2004-May-01, 12:42 AM
If one goes back in time with the purpose to change the present, one in fact goes to a different universe, so one does not alter the past of one&#39;s own universe.

Sp1ke
2004-May-04, 01:30 PM
If one goes back in time with the purpose to change the present, one in fact goes to a different universe

If we assume this is the case, I can&#39;t see how is affects the end result. Say you started off in the present, stood next to your father. You went back one hour and killed your father then waited around an hour. You would then be stood next to no-one (alive). Then you go back a hour and five minutes and don&#39;t kill your father. After 65 minutes, you&#39;re stood next to your father again.

Is there is a difference if you were to go back to before your birth and kill your father? You&#39;d start off in universe A where you and your father both exist. Then move to universe B, kill dad, leaving just you in B with no father. How&#39;s this different to staying in universe A after your time travel? Both result in you living with no biological cause for your existence.

Callisto
2004-May-04, 08:35 PM
I think that time traveling can only be possible in your mind. I don&#39;t think that you could physically go back to time. If going back to time is really possible it&#39;s gonna be mentally.

ASEI
2004-May-04, 08:47 PM
Another possiblity that no one considers is that you might not be able to alter the past/future/whatever. If you attempt to go back into the past and kill yourself, maybe you&#39;d miss or become a terribly clumsy assasin. You obviously need to survive to be able to time travel back for the attempt, pre-deciding the outcome of the attempt.

In other words, maybe the four-dimensional "image" of the universe is fixed, and whether or not time travel is involved in it doesn&#39;t change anything about it&#39;s stationary nature.

StarLab
2004-May-04, 10:58 PM
If one goes back one hour to kill an ancestor and waits for one hour, one would still be in the other universe, Sp1ke&#33; If you go back to your universe, your father would be waiting for you with open arms, because you still haven&#39;t killed him in your own universe - you cannot alter the past of your own universe. People who think about doing so are people who want to correct a mistake or accident in their past, but the past is written and all one can do is learn from experience and utilize past events to make a better future for themselves and those around them.

Sp1ke
2004-May-05, 09:18 AM
If one goes back one hour to kill an ancestor and waits for one hour, one would still be in the other universe, Sp1ke&#33; If you go back to your universe, your father would be waiting for you with open arms, because you still haven&#39;t killed him in your own universe

But how do you go back to your own universe? If every time-travel journey takes you to a different universe, you can never observe any events in your own universe. So for an observer in universe 1, you just disappear completely. From your viewpoint, you&#39;re always in a universe of some sort and so how do you differentiate between the different universes?

If you go back, moving to universe 2, kill your father, who genetically created you? No-one in universe 2. So you go back further, moving to universe 3 and there&#39;s your father again. But what happens if you go forward? Do you then go to universe 4? Would your father be alive or dead? Would it depend if you went forward from universe 2 (father killed) or universe 3 (father not killed)?

StarLab
2004-May-05, 02:09 PM
So for an observer in universe 1, you just disappear completely.

The theory that you arrive back in your universe at the same time you left might be true.


So you go back further, moving to universe 3 and there&#39;s your father again. But what happens if you go forward? Do you then go to universe 4?

You lost me, but to put that to rest, I don&#39;t believe that you can access a third universe from one that is not your own. You can access any one event at a time, and any second universe at one time. You cannot get to a third universe from that second universe for the exact same event - not gonna happen.

Prime
2004-May-05, 09:22 PM
This "space"ship, from the 23D century,in our time of development is a sort of time machine, observed in 1950.

http://community-2.webtv.net/WF11/doc4/

Prime

Cygnus X-1
2004-May-06, 04:49 AM
Time travel back to the past, I must estimate, is not possible. "When will now be then?"...... I doubt it. But if the theory of general relativity says a person traveling has a perception of time "slower" than one at rest, one going half or more the speed of light in orbit around the Sun could return to the Earth in the "future". To me, thats the only way for humans to "travel" in time.

String Fan
2004-May-06, 08:20 AM
I&#39;ll be eternally optimistic about Time Travel until a/ it happens or b/ I die.

I&#39;m quite fond of the helical space-time shape theory, but why leave it at that?

What if there were many helical shapes of different sizes that turn at different speeds inside one another, and in order to travel through time instantaneously then all we had to do would be to jump on the fastest turning helix.
Alternatively, if you wanted to make a moment last "forever", then to experience it on the slowest turning continuum.

Physicists have for years been saying that the way to travel through time would be to create a "rip" in the contiuum, but what then?
Well done, you&#39;ve torn the fabric of space and time and you now don&#39;t know where the hole leads to.
Could it not be possible that you could see the other spinning layers of continuum and make your voyage on one of those?

I&#39;d be interested in your ideas concerning this.

rahuldandekar
2004-May-06, 10:01 AM
But how do you go back to your own universe? If every time-travel journey takes you to a different universe, you can never observe any events in your own universe. So for an observer in universe 1, you just disappear completely. From your viewpoint, you&#39;re always in a universe of some sort and so how do you differentiate between the different universes?

If you go back, moving to universe 2, kill your father, who genetically created you? No-one in universe 2. So you go back further, moving to universe 3 and there&#39;s your father again. But what happens if you go forward? Do you then go to universe 4? Would your father be alive or dead? Would it depend if you went forward from universe 2 (father killed) or universe 3 (father not killed)?

I was having the same Idea - we would never get back to our universe.

Spacemad
2004-May-06, 10:07 AM
I&#39;m quite fond of the helical space-time shape theory,

It seems to me to be one of the most far fetched ideas I&#39;ve ever heard on time travel&#33; I&#39;m not condemning your idea, it just seems one of the most fantastic I&#39;ve ever heard. Nevertheless, as an idea it&#39;s as valid as the next. Especially when none of them can ever be proved&#33;

I, myself, have been fascinated by the idea of time travel since I was a boy & read H.G. Well&#39;s "The Time Machine" (Which I reread only a few months ago) Issac Asimov wrote a book on time travel called "Back To Eternity" in which humanity devised a means of being outside of time itself (Eternity) & yet being able to enter at any point in time after the 24th century to when our sun goes nova (from where they obtained the necessary power to operate "Eternity" & the time tubes). There he discusses man´s manipulation of all possible futures & how they tried constantly to deviate all man´s attempts to reach the stars.

The main point of the book was to show how time is like a loop, our actions in our "present" may be dependent on our actions in a "past" which we travel to & alter - voluntarily or not. (This is a difficult point to get across in a couple of lines&#33;) I suppose it´s one of those paradoxes that plague time travel&#33;

rahuldandekar
2004-May-06, 10:16 AM
Maybe the happenings in one universe are not influenced by those in others. And if there are infinite universes, there is almost zero probablity that you would get back to your universe as there are other infinite universes out of which you would go to one randomly.
This is applicable only to future travel, as there are many possible futures. There is only one past to one particular universe, so you wouldn&#39;t change universes in past travel.
Also, maybe this ain&#39;t random, and if we discover somethinbg that decides the universe we go to, something lying deep within the laws, we would be able to &#39;direct&#39; ourselves to our own universe.

String Fan
2004-May-06, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Spacemad@May 6 2004, 10:07 AM
It seems to me to be one of the most far fetched ideas I&#39;ve ever heard on time travel&#33; I&#39;m not condemning your idea, it just seems one of the most fantastic I&#39;ve ever heard. Nevertheless, as an idea it&#39;s as valid as the next. Especially when none of them can ever be proved&#33;

A lack of imagination limits the realms of the possible.

galaxy2
2004-May-06, 03:58 PM
In order for time travel to happen you would have to &#39;bend&#39; time or stop it altogether so that you could move back and forth &#39;without changing anything&#39;. It&#39;s as if you didn&#39;t really exist - theoretically if you don&#39;t exist then wherever you go nothing is altered...

Starry7
2004-May-06, 04:07 PM
This is a really interesting discussion. I think it might be possible to travel to the future, and thus alter events that haven&#39;t happened yet, but it would be hard to travel to the past where you don&#39;t exist yet to change events. If you did manage to travel back in time, it probably would not be possible to go back to the present you know, since you might not exist in the present based on your actions in the past. If you travelled forward in time, it also might be hard to get back to the present you know, because your actions might change the present you could go back to.
Speaking of good TV shows dealing with time travel, Andromeda is interesting, because the main character gets thrown 300 years into the future by a wormhole, and has to deal with the changes. So far, he has not made it back to his own time... He&#39;s a little too busy with other things at the moment.

BAMBI
2004-May-06, 05:20 PM
I believe that anything is possible one way or another as long as you believe in it. Imaginations are our limit and the force that drives our thirst to understand.

There is no evidence in this point in time that time travel is not possible. As humans we are limited to our 5 known senses to uncover the answers to our questions. Vision seems to be our most developed and most used sense. Perhaps using just once sense is blinding us from achieving our understanding of the world.

I believe that our society as it is now is greatly holding back human development. We are all raised to think in the same narrow minded way. History shows that the great geniuses of humanity have mostly questioned societies understanding of the world societies way of thinking, and in doing so uncovered a few of the many answers that are out there.

Is time travel possible you ask? I say yes for the following reasons:

1. We are able to think of it and imagine it. (I think therefore I am, I can imagine it therefore it can be done)
2. Strangely enough the desire of time travel seems to be an instinct as many people as i wish I did this instead of that.
3. Time travel might already exist, but we just don’t realize it. Like most discoveries, they already existed before they were discovered.

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-May-06, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Starry7@May 6 2004, 05:07 PM
Speaking of good TV shows dealing with time travel, Andromeda is interesting, because the main character gets thrown 300 years into the future by a wormhole, and has to deal with the changes.
Yes the TV series of Andromeda, if I may correct you. The ship Andromeda of &#39;the common world&#39;, is fighting a battle where it gets heavily damaged and is pulled into a somehow steady orbit around a blackhole where it is stuck for 300 hundred years.
On the ship time slows down to apoint where things seem to be frozen.
but away from the blackhole time progresses as usual, 300 years pass, and a scavenger ship pulls the Andromeda out of the orbit.
To everyones suprise they find the captain &#39;Dillon&#39; still healthy, young and alive. but he still thinks its three hundred years ago, and the battle is still taking place. But to his dissapointment, &#39;the common world&#39; does not exist anymore, so he starts his mission to restore &#39;the common world&#39;, and bring back peace to a shattered galaxy.

Maybe thats the only way we can time travel, ask some scientists to deep frezze you, let 500 years pass, then let their grand grand grand grand grand children unfreeze you and wake you up. You will be 500 years older, but you will be in awhole different world, the future.

The concept is somehow the same.

String Fan
2004-May-07, 07:24 AM
That seems a little permanent for my tastes if you know what I mean&#33; B)
What would you do if you didn&#39;t like what you found.
Melt yourself back into the past? :D

Spacemad
2004-May-07, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by BAMBI@May 6 2004, 05:20 PM
I believe that anything is possible one way or another as long as you believe in it. Imaginations are our limit and the force that drives our thirst to understand.

There is no evidence in this point in time that time travel is not possible. As humans we are limited to our 5 known senses to uncover the answers to our questions.
I agree with you, Bambi. Anything is possible if we believe in it & it´s often just our lack of imagination that thwarts our ability to see further than the end of our noses&#33; :P

Although I would dearly love to travel to sometime in the past all practical considerations make it impossible - at least for the foreseeable future. The energy required is way beyond our possibilities to produce. Having said that it seems that some atomic particles are capable of being in two places at the same time - or at least the action on one of a pair is transmitted instantaneously to its companion - might it not be possible then for us to transmit our atoms back to some moment of the past & thus suffer no time lag? But perhaps I´m confusing issues & both particles share the same time if not the same place&#33; :unsure:

BAMBI
2004-May-07, 04:00 PM
There are many good points presented here, but it seems to me we are still well away from a potentially possible method of time travel. Perhaps it would be beneficial to first attempt to define time and possible try to compare it with something similar which we know better. After all it is better to small steps towards our goal and reach it, then to rush and take wrong turns.

I ask you, what is time? and what is the best comparison to time?

StarLab
2004-May-07, 05:38 PM
Time is the bending of space...I could say more, but you&#39;d get bord after the sixteenth paragraph...when space bends, you go faster, so you experience less time. there is an equation for this, I think...

BAMBI
2004-May-09, 07:20 PM
Time is the bending of space

The only problem I have with that answer is time being defined using bending and space. Perhaps our perception of what bending is, could be far different form what it actually is, therefore time is being defined with something irrelevant. The same goes for space.

I seem to have a problem with believing in "evidence" and things that have been "scientifically proven" as there are often many routes to a place or solution that can be taken. Having said that, life bares many dead ends and so there may not be a path to everything we would like. On the other hand dead ends are only a lack of determination or giving up caused by the flaws of humans. I think if you keep trying you will eventually get here (a bit like Thomas Edison’s 1000 tries before he got to the light bulb). :P

StarLab
2004-May-09, 08:58 PM
Well, Bambi, we will just have to see if you&#39;re right when Gravity Probe B takes its measurements.

GREAT MIND
2004-May-12, 02:24 AM
<_<

SORRY GUYS but i think time travel is definitely impossible. NOTHING can be sent to the past becausew ANYTHING can effect what happens and therefore brings up the paradox problem, and nothing can be sent to the future because THE FUTURE HASNT HAPPENED YET. IF we went back in time and told Einstein about all of his discoveries before he discovered them WHERE WOULD THE INFORMATION HAVE COME FROM...

StarLab
2004-May-12, 02:41 AM
I&#39;m not sure if time travel is possible either, but for reassurance about your Einstein scenario, you might want to look at my few posts on page 10 (I believe). ;)

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-May-19, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by String Fan@May 7 2004, 08:24 AM
What would you do if you didn&#39;t like what you found.
Melt yourself back into the past? :D
Ofcourse you can&#39;t, but you can live with or try to make it a better place.

Just like the captain does. :D

Deep_Eye
2004-Jun-03, 12:57 AM
I don&#39;t believe that time travel is possible either-for reasons that I will can&#39;t go into here for fear of upsetting the mods... <_<
And even more than my belief, I sincerely hope that time travel is NOT possible. Think about it, terrorist fanatics could go back and save Hitler&#39;s life-maybe even make Germany end the war. Then none of these discussions would even be taking place. If they didn&#39;t have the brains to pull that off, they could much more easily rewrite the ending of the cold war by sparking a nuclear holocaust. When you think of it in those terms, time travel is a very scary prospect. Sure, a lot of good things good be done, but a lot of bad things could be done as well.

StarLab
2004-Jun-03, 01:34 AM
Bad Deepy&#33; Bad Boy&#33; It seems you have not read my posts in this string on page 10&#33;
Basically, if you go into the past to save Hitler, Hitler will live on only in that universe...you see, I think that if you travel to a different point in time than the one in which you are living, you in fact travel to a different (or should I say "parallel") universe (unities of time and space). When you save Hitler, you feel happy with yourself, but when you get back in time, you get back into your own universe...and nothing will have changed. What you do in the other universe stays in that other universe.
In terms of traveling to the future, that would be stupid if you wanted to do anything but just observe. There&#39;s no point in interacting w/ other people in the future... :ph34r:

Sp1ke
2004-Jun-03, 11:35 AM
Basically, if you go into the past to save Hitler, Hitler will live on only in that universe

If this is a completely different universe, what makes you think Hitler *ever* lived in it?

Assuming it was somehow identical to our universe up to that point, what&#39;s to stop someone else time travelling there "before" you and changing things. Then when you arrived, you would actually see the effects of their meddling.

Deep_Eye
2004-Jun-03, 02:48 PM
Bad Deepy&#33; Bad Boy&#33; It seems you have not read my posts in this string on page 10&#33;
Basically, if you go into the past to save Hitler, Hitler will live on only in that universe...you see, I think that if you travel to a different point in time than the one in which you are living, you in fact travel to a different (or should I say "parallel") universe (unities of time and space). When you save Hitler, you feel happy with yourself, but when you get back in time, you get back into your own universe...and nothing will have changed. What you do in the other universe stays in that other universe.
In terms of traveling to the future, that would be stupid if you wanted to do anything but just observe. There&#39;s no point in interacting w/ other people in the future...


If this is a completely different universe, what makes you think Hitler *ever* lived in it?

Assuming it was somehow identical to our universe up to that point, what&#39;s to stop someone else time travelling there "before" you and changing things. Then when you arrived, you would actually see the effects of their meddling.

Doesn&#39;t that defeat the whole purpose of time traveling?

Sp1ke
2004-Jun-03, 03:29 PM
Doesn&#39;t that defeat the whole purpose of time traveling?

So what is the purpose of time travelling? Just meddling to see what effect you can have? :D :D

I think we create all these paradoxes ourselves by our limited perception of space and time. If you imagine time as just a fourth dimension, we don&#39;t have any problem moving in one direction then moving back again so why do we have a problem moving back in time then moving forward?

If I said I moved three yards backwards, I wouldn&#39;t expect to go into another universe. And if I moved three yards forwards, I&#39;d be back where I started. Therefore, I move three years backwards then three years forwards so I&#39;m back where I started. :huh:?

Maybe our concept of cause and effect is an illusion. When you get to the quantum level, I believe the terms get mixed up. You can have an effect followed by a cause. Not a problem if you can&#39;t interrupt the two and prevent the cause. (But that&#39;s no different to getting between a cause and its effect - you just provide a different effect.)

So to summarise, I think that *if* we could travel backwards in time we probably could not interact with our surroundings because we&#39;re not part of that causal chain. *If* we could interact with the surroundings, we would re-write the causal chain so the future would change. That does seem to be a paradox if the new future, say, did not include us or our parents. Finally, *if* we could travel to one of the "parallel" universes, there&#39;s no reason to expect its causal chain to be anything like ours so there would not be likely to be any similarities.

Just my opinions.. :)

StarLab
2004-Jun-03, 05:27 PM
If this is a completely different universe, what makes you think Hitler *ever* lived in it?

Assuming it was somehow identical to our universe up to that point, what&#39;s to stop someone else time travelling there "before" you and changing things. Then when you arrived, you would actually see the effects of their meddling.
To each his own, spike, to each his own. it&#39;s all relativity.


So to summarise, I think that *if* we could travel backwards in time we probably could not interact with our surroundings because we&#39;re not part of that causal chain.
That&#39;s exactly what I said about the future...I guess one could apply it to the past...
Do not think of time as a dimension. Think of time as an independent component.
;)

Deep_Eye
2004-Jun-03, 07:42 PM
So what is the purpose of time travelling? Just meddling to see what effect you can have?

I think we create all these paradoxes ourselves by our limited perception of space and time. If you imagine time as just a fourth dimension, we don&#39;t have any problem moving in one direction then moving back again so why do we have a problem moving back in time then moving forward?

I never came up with the idea that going back in time and changing something would create a &#39;spinoff&#39; or alternate universe time history. I was posting based on the idea that changing something in the past would affect our own future.

StarLab
2004-Jun-03, 09:06 PM
Well, that&#39;s a personal kinda thing, D_E

Deep_Eye
2004-Jun-04, 12:27 AM
Yeah, I know. I guess the thought of changing something in the past creating an alternate universe never occured to me. I hope time travel is never invented-Hitler should stay dead-and never should have been born. Although, a lot of good things could be accomplished with it, it just has too much potential to be disasterous if it fell into the wrong hands.

StarLab
2004-Jun-04, 04:41 AM
Let&#39;s leave it at this: if time travel were possible, in some ways it would be pointless.

Geekstronaut
2004-Jun-10, 05:29 PM
Alright. Let me put my two useless cents in the conversation.

If anyone ever saw that tv series "Sliders" (especially the first episodes), then you might notice that they provide a (sorta&#39;) viable solution to time travel.

That show is a true supporter of parallel universes. As in, there is a different reality created for every choice we make. Every alternate solution to every possibility to every outcome of every second of our existance continues in it&#39;s own reality. So, in the show, a guy (supposedly a smart one) cooks up a formula (an equation rather) that can defy the boundaries between these realities. And, naturally, the dude and a ocouple of his friends start to uncerimoneously "meddle", as Sp1ke so gracefully puts it :), in those parallel universe&#39;s "lives" by traveling thru&#39; them.

Sounds sound (no pun intended). I mean it&#39;s not really time travel, since all the other alleged alternate realities keep living at the same pace as the other ones. But, think of it this way - if you COULD travel like that, you could basically go to a time, that has been lived out by you and everyone else, differently.

I dunno&#39; if what I babbled here makes any concievable sence; I like to think i t does...so there :P

Thank you for your attention.

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-Jun-28, 10:19 PM
I had this weird experience not so long ago, I was watching the cnn news on TV with my cousin.
At that moment I could remember I had seen that moment before, sitting watching the cnn news with my cousin, in my dream, I think a week ago.

Which means I had somehow seen the future, but wasn&#39;t aware of it until I experienced it myself. Somekind of fenomena I don&#39;t how to explain.
I asked my cousin if he too had had this kind of "future views" in his dreams, he said he had, but meant no big deal to him.

How can this be possible? Doesn&#39;t it challenge some of those theories about time? :huh:

rahuldandekar
2004-Jul-02, 08:22 AM
I have had that sensation a few times too. But I think it&#39;s just an illusion created by the brain. It may be something else, but I leave it to other people to think about it.

madman
2004-Jul-04, 02:46 AM
yes, i&#39;ve had that experience too....it could not have been imagination since the real events occured later.

i dreamt once that i was in the city (Sydney) in the middle of the day...i had walked into an area that had a shallow ampitheatre, and sat down to watch a show/demonstration by people on rollerskates doing tricks.

one trick was tried by 3 people in sequence (one after the other)...which was an attempt to squat down low, extending the arms and a leg for balance...the first 2 tried it and failed (they fell over)..the third was sucessful...afterwards they and the others in the troop starting joining in lines (holding onto each other) and skating around doing jumps.

***************

a few months later "our house" got to know the japanese crew from the touring "starlight express" show (it was around 1988-89)..

we were invited to see their demo show in martin place sydney....i forgot about it, but found myself in the city one day wondering if i should catch a bus home or go and see the free show...i went to see the show and saw the events of my dream occur before me.

**************************************
i had had many precognitive dreams through my life....and remember once walking to school when i was very young ..wondering about all the dreams of this sort i&#39;d had by that age.

Spacemad
2004-Jul-04, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by TwAgIssmuDe@Jun 28 2004, 10:19 PM
I had this weird experience not so long ago, I was watching the cnn news on TV with my cousin.
At that moment I could remember I had seen that moment before, sitting watching the cnn news with my cousin, in my dream, I think a week ago.

Which means I had somehow seen the future, but wasn&#39;t aware of it until I experienced it myself. Somekind of fenomena I don&#39;t how to explain.
I asked my cousin if he too had had this kind of "future views" in his dreams, he said he had, but meant no big deal to him.

How can this be possible? Doesn&#39;t it challenge some of those theories about time? :huh:
I believe it&#39;s quite a common experience, I, myself, have experienced it on quite a few occasions. One that really stands out in my mind still (after more than 30 years) was one Easter (1972). I had been to Devon (a county in the southwest of England) & was being taken back in a friend´s car when we passed through a city called Bristol. As we passed through the city we stopped at some traffic lights & I was impressed by some gardens I saw. At that moment I was positive I had seen this exact scene sometime earlier&#33; In actual fact it was the first & only time I have ever passed through that city&#33;

As I´ve said it´s an experience I´ve had many, many times - a kind of "Deja vu" as I believe the French call it - a strong feeling of having lived through this precise moment sometime before.

A medical explanation is that our minds process information & store it in different memories - short term, medium term & permanent - it seems that sometimes we suffer what we might call a "lapsus" or a sort of short circuit & our mind "replays" what it had stored in our short term memory & we therefore "relive" a moment again & experience it as a previous experience.

I hope I have expressed the idea properly as it is a least a couple of years since I read the explanation.

By the way, I had one of these "deja vu" experiences only about a week ago&#33;

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-Jul-04, 10:36 PM
Wow, this sounds like a universal fenomena. Its somehow incredible that we experience something like this.

If only it was possible to maintain the memory of the expirience, so we could use it in the future. You know like in those movies. Look at the benefits.
The problem is we don&#39;t know if its reality or dream when it happens, we only know that when we are experiencing it, which is somehow too late to do anything about it.
But I still don&#39;t why its possible.

Spacemad
2004-Jul-05, 06:01 PM
QUOTE=Spacemad,Jul 4 2004, 08:46 PM]
I believe it&#39;s quite a common experience, I, myself, have experienced it on quite a few occasions.

As I´ve said it´s an experience I´ve had many, many times - a kind of "Deja vu" as I believe the French call it - a strong feeling of having lived through this precise moment sometime before.

A medical explanation is that our minds process information & store it in different memories - short term, medium term & permanent - it seems that sometimes we suffer what we might call a "lapsus" or a sort of short circuit & our mind "replays" what it had stored in our short term memory & we therefore "relive" a moment again & experience it as a previous experience.

I hope I have expressed the idea properly as it is a least a couple of years since I read the explanation.

By the way, I had one of these "deja vu" experiences only about a week ago&#33;[/QUOTE]

BBC Deja vu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A695469)

Try this site for an explanation of what I said in my last post.

& this one: Deja vu. Time Magazine (http://people.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question657.htm&url=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970505/science.ben_there_don.html)

madman
2004-Jul-06, 05:18 AM
yes, deja vu can occur in the manner you&#39;ve shown..(although the example i posted does not fit that theory)

tesla studied his dreams to find how they were generated...he realised that the imagery was a "re-editing" of his actual experiences, into a form that made a unique story or sequence for dreams.

i don&#39;t agree that this is the complete answer...since i have seen things in dreams that i am sure i have never seen in real life.

example...i dreamt that i walked into a record shop...the guy at the counter yells out."hey, that record you ordered has come in..are you going to pick it up (buy it)now?

i&#39;m surprised and wonder how i could have forgotten about ordering it in...and ask to have a listen to it.

he directs me to a turntable and headphones in the store..so i crank up the record and listen to a few tracks.

the band is "deep purple"...i listen to some tracks..it sounds like the band and the songs are good...i think.."yeah, i suppose i&#39;ll buy this".



the album/songs i listened to did not exist in reality...(i collected deep purple records and knew what albums they had made)

********************

maybe that&#39;s not a good example..i probably had enough "samples" stored in memory to mix new tracks from?

WizardWayne
2004-Jul-09, 03:54 PM
Hi, All.

The problem with time travel really has nothing to do with the Grandfather Paradox (or in this case, the Grandmother Paradox). Time travel violates a basic law of the universe (as we currently understand them <g>) and that is the conservation of mass/energy. if I go back in time, I leave an energy "hole" now and had an energy surplus in the past. Conservation of mass/energy states that in a closed system (and I&#39;m assuming here that the universe is a closed system) mass/energy can&#39;t be created or destroyed, onlty transformed from one for to another.

Unless I extract the exact same amount of mas/energy from the past and simultaneously time-travel it forward...

eburacum45
2004-Jul-09, 05:34 PM
That is one of the problems with time travel; conservation of mass.

This is my little essay "why time travel would destroy the universe"...

http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/WhyNoTimeTravel.html

Anden
2004-Aug-26, 04:08 PM
I will be leaving this time in four weeks.

TwAgIssmuDe
2004-Aug-26, 07:37 PM
We keep on creating more paradoxes than we can solve, but I read this new theory, which sounds more reasonable.

In this theory, no one can time travel in the past or future. but until the moment the timemachine is inveted, one can only travel to the future or into the past, afew seconds after the timemachine has been inveted.
Which means one can&#39;t go back and interfere with the past before the time machine was inveted. Its like if a new timeline has been created, new physic laws are applied, and the great time barrier, &#39;timemachine yet to be inveted-timemachine inveted&#39; is created.

This time time-travel is allowed, and one can go into the future and past as pleased. But one can&#39;t travel further back than the great time barrier, &#39;timemachine yet to be inveted-timemachine inveted&#39;.

What do you think :)

Gajaal
2004-Aug-26, 09:35 PM
I go along with the "Occhams Razor" approach. (????? Splg) The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

I feel that there is no evidence that Time Travel has occurred.

I say this because I don&#39;t consider that there have been any significantly outstanding leaps in technology recorded in history that identify the "arrival" of a "future" being in an earlier period.

Leonardo, the Egyptians, (not withstanding von Danicans {? Splg again} tripe) the Mayans, ancient Chinese whatever.

Kurt Mendellson&#39;s book on the Pyramids, (can&#39;t think of the title right now) debunked the "ET" proposition of a "highly advanced culture&#39;s influence" upon the erection of the pyramids. Or, for that matter, a visitor from the future.

Leonaro&#39;s parachutes, helecopters, etc all were well placed, technically and materially in his era.

So, as much enjoyment as I get out of Star Trek, Back to the Future, the Time Machine, I simply don&#39;t think there is any proof that it has ever happened, and if we can confidently say that now, then we can say that, confidently. for all time.

ASEI
2004-Aug-27, 12:58 AM
I don&#39;t think time travel would cause any paradoxes. I think any time you end up with a paradox or singularity, you aren&#39;t analyzing a situation correctly.

For instance, because a ping-pong ball can travel across a board and knock into another ping-pong ball does not mean that that ping pong ball "would have" traveled in any other direction than the one after the collision. I think similar rules would apply with time travel. You&#39;d probably end up not being able to kill your father in the past because of some sort of convergence of events, maybe even physical law.

Besides, time travel goes on all the time with quantumn physics and virtual particles. I haven&#39;t seen any nasty time anomalies result.


Time travel violates a basic law of the universe (as we currently understand them <g>) and that is the conservation of mass/energy. if I go back in time, I leave an energy "hole" now and had an energy surplus in the past.

I have thought about this some. If you hold everything to be conserved in the normal sense (and not have short lived "borrowed" properties such as the virtual particles do, then a lot about the nature of backwards time travel can be extrapolated. For example, I think that reverse time travel would have to be accompanied by negative relative mass and energy values. (This is from special relativity). If your relative time scale is negative with respect to the rest of the universe, then a whole lot of properties have to invert. Negative mass, negative energy, negative temperature, negative entropy flow (which sort of makes sense, if you are going backwards), negative momentum. (You would be on the negative root of the Lorentz coefficient). This also fits nicely into explaining the energy balance. Total energy in the universe does not change, because your adventures traveling forward in time in the past are balanced by a negative spacecraft which is you as you travel backwards. (From the universes perspective, the moment of your time travel reversal would look something like your positive mass and negative mass spacecraft colliding and leaving nothing behind, sort of like a virtual particle pair anhilation) Oh well, this is fun to think about.

My motto in dealing with time travel, is that you probably don&#39;t know if it&#39;s so bad until you get your hands dirty, so forget the prime directive, and full speed ahead (behind, reverse?) :lol:

astromark
2004-Aug-27, 03:18 AM
:blink: No... It will not ever be possable to time travel. Not back, not forward. Not at all. Past...It has already happened. Future... It has not happened yet. And thats it. It realy is that simple. Lets take this a stage further. If you could travel at or above the speed of light. Your time would move forward just like it all ways does. The point of your departure would also not notice any changes to the usual passing of time. As for your destination. Well thats not relivant, Think about it some more. If after rushing about for a while you decided to return to the place you left. There would be a time &#39;Diferance&#39;... this is not time travel. Its just that as you near the speed of light your time slowes. If you were to reach light speed it might evan stop. It will not reverse. You can not arrive befor you left.
AS unwilling as I am to say this it is true that we may never be able to reach light speed. The energy requiered is enormuss.
Warp eight Mr Data.....make it so. i wish.

ASEI
2004-Aug-27, 03:31 AM
Past...It has already happened. Future... It has not happened yet. And thats it. It realy is that simple.

For many of the concepts of special and general relativity to work, it is necessary to treat time as a dimension. If it exists, it can be travelled in. By your reasoning, there should be some absolute reference frame from which the "actual" time is measured. There isn&#39;t one, so time travel is possible, and you need relative dimensions to explain time. (Differences in the relative time dimensions for different objects). Moving fast does enable you to time travel forward: your space-time dimensions are rotated with respect to the observers space-time dimensions. (BTW, why else would the transformation appear so similar to rotation with normal space axes?)

If there were a way to increase the rotation of space-time past the speed of light barrier (this wouldn&#39;t equate to travelling faster than light, it would be slower than light velocities with negative lorentz values.) The other sign to the roots, ect. Then it would be possible to have backwards time travel due to one object&#39;s time elapsing at a negative rate with respect to the observer&#39;s time.

StarLab
2004-Aug-27, 02:11 PM
how much could a photon slow down? If we had this huge structure in space, which slowed down photons tremendously, but we have this tunnel in which humans could travel in a near-lightspeed vehicle, so yet when it gets close to c it&#39;s already travelling faster than the light in that structure....what happens?

Good Elf
2004-Aug-27, 02:28 PM
Hi All,

This time travel thing is not a problem. The universe is not concerned with our temporal quandaries and philosophical murmurings. The universe is a machine to determine what to do next. If a set of circumstances present itself... the universe&#39;s "job" is to work out what to do next. While the past affects what is happening in the sense that light emitted from the distant stars is still arriving at the venue for my dastardly deed of killing my own grandmother... the Universe itself is only a Physics machine not a Science Fiction Author with imagination and stuff.

If I turn up at this instant via some "unknown" set of circumstances and proceed to dispatch my poor ole granny... that what will happen... for sure. The universe is not interested in paradox (especially human induced paradox). It simply does all the calculations about the flight of the bullet from my gun and allows the giggle I utter to be heard by the witnesses (must have witnesses eh&#33;). From the point of view of the Court - there was no paradox to worry about, just a murder - no one will believe that I am the Great Grandson of this woman. And I don&#39;t suddenly cease to exist - no such law in physics&#33; Things just carry on.

This has been just another day in the Universe (an unusually large quantum disturbance has occured in the fluctuations in the continuum). I bet they happen all the time. We just do not have the broad experience to observe it and to believe it when it does.

The only real problem is how I got there. I think that is just another physics problem. The circumstance that conjoined these incidents were contrived by a designer (me) with technology and stuff (etc..) who arranges pieces on a cosmic chessboard from anywhere he likes even from different times. Just because pieces come from different times and places is irrelevant. I imagine sub-atomic particles do this all the time in the froth and turmoil of the very small. This is just a larger version of that. My life continues, as I have planned it, according to the laws of physics - unabated if I make my getaway.

We have got to get over it emotionally just like flying was considered against the laws of God too until someone did it.

As to time travellers... what about Ghosts and UFO&#39;s? I think they qualify. There is probably a temporal elastic band that eventually snaps everything back to where they came from because of the law of conservation of mass and energy. This also happens for other "virtual particles". But laws are not always true and can be transgressed temporarily, that is why these things can and do happen.

There is a law that minimises the processes and energy of all activity in the Universe that will come into effect to create a suitable pathway to allow this event (a cosmic occams razor). It is a sort of compression algorithm, a quantum level zip program, it reduces the things in the Universe to a minimum to allow everything that happens to happen. You don&#39;t need an infinity of Universes to solve this problem, just one extra sub-Universe to sort out the "so called" timelines. If other persons time travel, new "loops" and cul-de-sacs will appear but always at a minimum to "just" explain the phenomena. This one is a very localized one, just around me and granny. Just enough to take care of the problem and fit the pieces together. I have not counted up all the bits and pieces and summarised the number and quantities of the Universe(s) but that does not change the facts. Let others worry about the "bean counting".

There will be a timeline where there was a granny and she had a daughter and then she had me and I went to "some other place" that I like to call the past and killed a granny when she looked and was a lot younger. I personally did not go back in time - I just did all that stuff one bit after another. for me nothing was in the past. Granny also did all that stuff, and other stuff. Granny has a daughter and lives to see me born. This is fine. If you don&#39;t believe me go back again and have a look.

Cheers

ASEI
2004-Aug-27, 05:17 PM
Contradictions do not exist.

Or rather, they do in our minds, but that is our mistake, not the universe&#39;s.

StarLab
2004-Aug-27, 06:16 PM
You can time travel, but you can&#39;t change time.

Good Elf
2004-Aug-28, 02:27 AM
Hi All ... again and again etc..so on ad infinitum... I will have to stop meeting myself like this&#33;.

See my other post about this subject but paradox is not a concept the Universe understands. If physical law forbids it then so be it. But will it?

It is clear that at least in my mind&#39;s eye I can juxtapose Granny and myself at some "future" point in my life (allowing for time travel and the fact that I have not done it yet). Tis is truly a future for me, not a past. Then I can perform a range of natural events. Nothing mystical happening here. What events are my choice and grannies choice.

In the cases of Myself and Granny these events are still to occur. Don&#39;t go pulling out your brass fob watch and dictate the current state of the Universe relative to it. Whatever the circumstances all these events will exist along continuous future timelines. Our brass fob watch would get confused because it is NOT a timepiece, it is a pendulum (of sorts). Dr. Who would tell you that&#33; No respectable way to tell the time for a time traveller is it. Hey&#33;... go get some real technology will ya.

A real time piece would need to record a lot more than just the number of cycles since it was wound up last. Go read Einstein.

The paradox is only in a denial of the "apparent" duality of the event in our obviously limited experience of time. Clearly this will be a new experience for me (time travel). I am going to have a couple of surprises. Real Time Lords need to be aware and have a working knowledge of the other simultaneous streams and the inhabitants of them.

If I am a time traveller I must expect to possibly meet myself for the first time. If I don&#39;t like that guy I might kill him too (I&#39;m a one time granny killer eh&#33;). If I have met myself for the first time who is this chap I just killed - me in the future - nah - that’s not me cause I am here - with the gun, and it&#39;s not my brother either (my "essence" is in this body if you will). I will never meet that other guy again - he is dead. I just need to accept it eh&#33;

If you have no confusion of who you are now don&#39;t become confused when you become a Time Lord. You may wonder about who the other guy was but you know who YOU are eh&#33; You will be the one with this inner narrative running in your head. That other fella may never have killed his Granny, good for him, I&#39;m the killer... that is why I killed him. He never saw it coming because he was not me and couldn&#39;t anticipate this happening to him.

If you are searching for a practical way to travel through time you just gotta join the dots. Not the subject for this short e-mail.

He who has ears let him hear.

Cheers

astromark
2004-Aug-31, 01:28 AM
:unsure: Four thats all, just four. dimentions ... Length, Bredth, depth, and time. We can move, manover, alter, travel through three of them. not four.
We choose to measure time. The universe doesént care. the progresion of time is unbending unaltrerable, and defnatly unchanging. us it marches forward for eternaty... infanatly. We measure the passing of time becouse we are mortle. thats not somthing we can change. but we would like to.

astromark
2004-Aug-31, 01:00 PM
Good Elf....:rolleyes: OK., you win, but don&#39;t kill ya granny. She&#39;s got stuff to do.
You had better not kill that other fellow there iether, he&#39;s the grandson and this would upset granny. I like your idea that you are there as a time travelor and meet your self, ( He may not like you.)Put the gun away. Just incase it needs to be said, If you kill him now. How are you going to be alive after you are dead?
The full moon could be a good explination.

Good Elf
2004-Sep-02, 12:29 PM
Hi Astromark,

OK I promise not to kill Granny. Actually my Granny is already dead years ago. And I don&#39;t remember killing her (yet)&#33;&#33;&#33;

Lets continue in "just pretend" mode.

That "other" guy is not me. Never will be - he&#39;s a different guy altogether. (I am telling the truth for this next two sentences) I really can&#39;t remember being around when/where Granny originally died and I didn&#39;t see anyone there either. My memory does not include that "incident" in my past (and never will). Cross my heart and hope to die&#33;

With my "Time Machine" that I have just recently invented, I am now going to "go back in time" (not really for me - this is still ahead for me in my immediate future) and kill "a" Granny. My real Granny died years ago (I didn&#39;t do it), this is an apparent duplicate created out of our Universe. That "other" guy I see there (a younger me) is also a duplicate. I surely can&#39;t remember being there at the time when Granny died and I didn&#39;t see a guy looking like me do it either&#33; Not me.

He will not be me in the future either. He has a different set of memories to me too. OK - just for you I won&#39;t kill that Granny either - I put a sticky label on her that says "Bang - you&#39;re dead". That&#39;s enough to prove a point. And I kill this "young" guy - I have a right to do that because he is "me" - or can I? Actually he is another person, he belongs there, and I have no rights here - it&#39;s murder all right. I&#39;d fry for it. They will have to catch me though. When I depart back to the "present", I return to the present "here", where I am sitting right now, and before I depart in my Time Machine, I have committed no crime "here" (sort of a Statute of Limitations - eh&#33; - murder is limited to one sub-universe). The only one who knows is me (and of course you - cause I told ya&#33;). The perfect crime.

The question to ask is where did that "time bubble" come from and what happens to it after I return to "my time"? What also happened to the fly that I inadvertently took with me in the Time Machine that escaped into the "past" never to return when I did.

The answers do exist. This much above is the beginnings. Just takes too long to fully explain the rest here. Like Scully of the X-Files used to say "I have seen things that I cannot deny".

As to being mortal --- I am still condemned to live a normal lifespan. "Time Travel" will not help that. As to the number of dimensions of space and time... how is it that particles and photons can remain linked even after travelling thousands of light years away from each other and finally remembering that they are still "touching" in a very intimate way. It&#39;s called quantum entanglement. It is surely saying something about those higher dimensions connecting everything together eh&#33; Every atom, photon and sub-atomic particle of us touches other atoms, photons and sub-atomic particles "somewhere else" - possibly across the Universe. And so on.

I don&#39;t know what is religion for you, but this will do for me. "The ghost in the machine".

Cheers

rahuldandekar
2004-Sep-03, 07:30 AM
Why won&#39;t you remember that you were where you went in the past? And if you kill yourself ( ok, it&#39;s you in the past) Then will you remember being killed?

Good Elf
2004-Sep-03, 01:27 PM
Hi rahuldandekar (and Astromark),

Thanks for your reply and your questions. The assumption is that I am really going to do this "stuff". I "really" don&#39;t remember seeing an elder looking me in the past killing my Granny. And I should know - that would be a "very" memorable event. I really do not remember the death of my Granny - I wasn&#39;t there. That is "for real". I do not need to pretend that.. The killing that I intend to do (using a so a called Time Machine) is still in my future isn&#39;t it? I now start pretending that I have access to a Time Machine. When I travel backwards in time, I do not get younger (I wish eh&#33;) I am actually still getting older, minute by minute, hour by hour, even when I am Time Travelling. My brass fob watch will still tick. When I time travel my thoughts don&#39;t go in reverse and I get spontaneously younger. No... for ME time travel does not occur. This is an event that I observe in my "external" universe - not in me or my so called Time Machine.

The other point I should make out is aside from all this time travel stuff I could not kill my "real" self and still grow old enough to go back and do the trick - can I? I would have been "very" dead all the time. Yup - I will always remember where I was in the past - but if I am dead there are problems.

Getting back to the thread... When I see my Granny and the younger me there, they have no relation to my "real" past which is as I have just told you (very normal). I was never there at this "apparent" time.

The bit about killing "stuff&#39; is only to put a real paradox into the story so that you get the real point. There is already a paradox - a subtler one - already. I don&#39;t have to kill anyone.

There are two me&#39;s in the one room. One is a whole lot older than the other. For me as a traveller there is no paradox since these people only remind me of my real Granny as she was, and of me as I once was.

That other me is not having "my" life experience since I remember none of it as these events unfold. So in a sense this is all happening for the first time at "this" moment in my life. All of us - young Granny and the young Me and "myself" are "contemporaries". We all exist at the same time. This is just like meeting new people not really myself and Granny. I may find that this other guy has my DNA but there are differences in our lives. This "incident" that is currently happening is just one of them. He is experiencing this "old" guy who looks vaguely familiar (looks a bit like his dad) speaking with Granny. Even Granny never had this encounter before she died, she is acting in a new "script".

None of these events are a paradox in themselves - only if I try to (unsuccessfully) butt them all together in a seamless, logical stream. No. This is more like Steven Spielberg with several takes of Star Wars and cutting and editing the bits together. The only difference is I am able to bring this stuff together in a continuous strip of time without paradox using an advanced piece of technology (a time machine). It&#39;s not "real" Time Travel - it&#39;s an advanced form of Cinematography&#33; "Gawsh ma... I&#39;m in da movies&#33;" It is a history of sorts though. There is a book of sequential events that could be written. Strangely only I could write it since no outsider to the Time Machine and myself could tell the full story.

When I return to "my world" my age will still be related in a strong way to my age when I left. I am not sure what the Time Machine may do with the way fob watches I took with me and a fob watch I left behind may "relatively" read. What I know is that the fob watch will read a later time than when I was at the point of leaving. I am not sure how they now compare with each other. Will they be in exact sync or will one be ahead of the other. All I can tell you without knowing everything is that they will both read "later" times than when I left.

One of the conditions that I made this "journey" was to see that the calender date and time fob watch in that parallel world shows a dramatically "earlier" time than my fob watch (it has date and time too eh&#33;).

Where did this parallel "World" come from? Where is it now going to go to? How do I get back to the world I started my journey from?

The last question may be possible to answer - just switch the "Time Machine" off. You will "snap" back. You are artificially put there by the Time Machine. You do not actually belong there - or do you? To remain behind there will need to be a swap - think it through. Read up on Quantum Computing for the strange answer.

Cheers

mercury
2004-Sep-05, 02:20 AM
Here is a proof I’ve thought about to the point that time travel is impossible. Suppose a scientist(40 year old) does travel back in time. He meets his past self(30 years old). Now, if the past self kills him, and keeps on living its daily life till it is 40. Finally it comes to the stage where the scientist traveled back in time. Then it gets killed by ITS past self. Then this past self continues its life and the cycle continues. Thus the same man got murdered by himself infinte number of times. Therefore time is repeating itself in that cycle(10 years) infinite number of times. The real time(the time that would have been there had not the man gone back in time) will have gone infinitely ahead of the present time. But really the past self had not met ITS future self actually(when the man was really 30). Hence even before the man invented the time machine, he would meet his future self(when he was 30). Also, if he had not killed himself and instead lived in the past for 10 years, in the real time where would he be then?

Spacemad
2004-Sep-05, 09:43 PM
Why all this silly talk of killing one&#39;s grandfather/mother, one´s earlier self & other silly things like stopping your parents ever meeting, etc.?

It really does seem so silly to talk about meaningless "paradoxes" when there are so many exciting things we could study in the past (were it ever possible to travel back in time) such as going back & investigating the origin of different species (perhaps stopping the extinction of some&#33;). Retrieving documents that were destroyed in the past - such as those in the Library at Alexandria, for example.

This thread really does seem to be going round in endless circles - like a puppy chasing its own tail&#33; I have no desire to offend anybody but surely we could be a bit more constructive. :rolleyes:

astromark
2004-Sep-06, 12:11 PM
:huh: I agree with Spacemad.,but... I want to add, Mercury there would then be three of you. I think. One origanal, you, who have traveled back ten years,and stayed there. and you who has just arrived there to see the two of you looking confussed. but anyway it cant happen. It wont work. The fly will kill you,...
Lets move on... If it were possible what would you want to do? I think changing the past could resolt in your negating your own egsistance. Might be a good idea some would sagest. I await your thoughts...

Good Elf
2004-Sep-06, 03:10 PM
Gidday Guys,

Time Travel to your own past is NEVER possible. The only time travel possible is to "equivalent" pasts.

You are NEVER going to meet your "real" self. The only paradox about Time Travel is in our minds. You can&#39;t really have time travel H. G. Wells style. The universe is more complicated than that.

There is the possibility that you might view your own "real" past, thats all. You would only be an observer, a sort of ghost unable to influence the past. Even changing one real atom in the past in the most insignificant place you can imagine would cause a real paradox. This is NOT Time Travel.

Get used to meeting people "like" you - but not you. You can still learn a lot if you want to. Even in the future "You don&#39;t get everything you want".

Just imagine for one minute that your Time Machine had a hissy fit and got into a loop. It could potentially drop an infinite number of you into the room of your destination "creating" large quantities of surplus (possibilities infinities) matter (you) from "nowhere". breaking every law of conservation of matter possible. If there was a unique past you just really stuffed up.

Get used to the fact that there is more than one "you". You may not like it but that&#39;s the story. The "others" are all different and except for very similiar genetic code they have other possibilities open to them. They are also needed to make Quantum Computers work too. That&#39;s another story.

When man thought that he at was the center of the Universe, he would kill to maintain the fiction. Man now knows that he is not the center of the Universe and soon he will probably find that he is also not alone. The next step will be to find that he is not even unique. Stiff bikkies.

This bit about negating ones own existence is not on. The fact that you negated your existence is proof that you existed anyway. If you want to really kill yourself just use a gun like others do. You "negate your existence" and you don&#39;t need to invent a Time Machine to do it.

Being constructive is fantasy. You have to make the bits join together in the real world. To see all the fantasy you want there are a million movies on the subject. You have even got Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and gnomes at the bottom of the garden. For a bit of a laff try "The Time Bandits" by the Monty Python crew. They are mostly wrong. A near miss, by the way, is Jet Li in "The One". That is pretty good at looking at the multiverse. This topic is about a multiverse with attitude.

Cheers

ASEI
2004-Sep-06, 03:35 PM
Time Travel to your own past is NEVER possible. The only time travel possible is to "equivalent" pasts.

How do you know that? As far as we can tell with relative forward time travel, we are all in the same universe. Why would relative backwards time travel be any different?


past in the most insignificant place you can imagine would cause a real paradox.

I&#39;m a bit of a determinist. I don&#39;t think you could change the past even if you did travel there. No paradoxes in that case.


There is the possibility that you might view your own "real" past, thats all. You would only be an observer, a sort of ghost unable to influence the past

But heisenbergs uncertainty principle forces that you must be interactive with the time period.


Just imagine for one minute that your Time Machine had a hissy fit and got into a loop. It could potentially drop an infinite number of you into the room of your destination "creating" large quantities of surplus (possibilities infinities) matter (you) from "nowhere". breaking every law of conservation of matter possible.

I&#39;m not sure this situation is adequately described. If your time machine dropped you off in the room for a finite time, then got you from a further future after you came back and dropped you off in the same room, ect, then you do end up with a lot of extra mass. But you also end up with the balancing negative mass of the time machines and yous that are being ferried from the future. Reverse time travel should involve negative mass somehow. Even the wormholes that were supposed to be able to beat lightspeed and travel back in time needed some sort of negative mass for the physics to work. But with such bizzare things the physics can work. That&#39;s what I think at least.
These multiple possibility universes seem like a worse violation of the conservation of energy. How is it that a whole new universe is supposed to appear, along with a whole new set of circumstances based on a decision that you make (That is an awful lot of energy and matter)? Why are the electrons in your brain so special that they could drive such a process? Time travelling, whether forward or backward shouldn&#39;t involve paradox, but having whole new universes sprout because of your thoughts or interactions is somewhat anthropocentric.

(Hey, every year, time traveller joe time travels to his one singular birthday, where himself from every other year arrives. And they have a blast. :D :lol: )

astromark
2004-Sep-06, 11:50 PM
:unsure: I &#39;ve said it be4 Oops, You cant time travel. Time is the relentless marching forward of the medium we egsist in. The whole universe is moving forward in a never ending ... unfolding. Some parts are exelerating away at an ever greater rate, while others are on a colision course with whatever.. and another thought on all of this is.. In order to time travel. You would need to travel in space as well. This planet, this solar system, this galaxy, are all rushing through space at a quiet impresive rate. To time travel you would need to get the location just right. Time = distance... Anyway, you cant time travel cos I said you cant. but if you could, you should not, &#39;the prime directive&#39; It would be way to easy to muck up the avents that have happened already... and things cant be changed like that.. Its not a possabilaty. Not science, not real. Another thought,.. Dont you think that if at some time in our distant future they figer this time travel idea. That they might come back to here, now or sometime in our past. Dont you think we would have seen, mett or other wise interacted with them... are all those ufo&#39;s just time travelers...Mmmm...from the future. NO.

Wouter
2004-Sep-14, 06:23 PM
I haven&#39;t read the whole thread (I have a life) but I shall share my ideas here. Sorry if there are things in it that have been said 15 times before.

Time travel
Is it possible? I think it is. Well, according to Einstein&#39;s relativity theory, we can travel in time. When you move faster than someone else, your clock slows down in comparison to theirs. This is always, but really gets to you when you move at near light speeds. We need something that can propel us at near light speeds. One way of doing this is to rotate a black hole, where you can really have a fun rollercoaster time. When you are doing this - suggesting you can survive the force of the black hole and other malicious forces of nature - your clock slows down more and more in comparison to other clocks on earth. When you look at your watch, nothing seems to change though. So: You have your time, and earth has its time. Earth&#39;s time is much faster, and life speeds ahead of you. When you exit the black hole on lane 14 - suggesting you can - the earth clock has made more rotations than yours: Welcome to the future&#33;
Relativity prohibits travel back in time though, but let&#39;s keep our minds open to new developments.

Where are the time travelers?
For those who despise Einstein and all his ridiculous ideas, you say one could travel back in time. Where are the time travelers then? Well, take a look at John Titor, a person who visited a forum claiming he was a traveler in time from the year 2051 (or something). A soldier on a mission of finding some parts of an old IBM computer, which are very important in a time post-third-world-war including nuclear and biological weapons. Just google the name, you will have much to read. I for myself don&#39;t believe him, because there are some contradictions in his story. By the way, he left this time in 2001 to go back to his own time.

So.. Let&#39;s kill granny
This is only a paradox in Newtonian time. Modern physics times allows parallel universa. I think time is a web. When you make have to make a decision. Say you are on a path and you&#39;re lost: You can go left or right. In one universe you go left, in the other you go right. This not only occurs with choices, but also with possibilites. In a parallel universe we may be facing an incoming asteroid. Hell, even the laws of physics may be different in another universe. So, when you kill your poor granny, I think you will not excist in an other universe, but you will in the others.

smvasagam
2004-Sep-17, 01:45 PM
1. As per the astronomical know how presently available to mankind is that our
galaxy is milkyway which is one amoung other galaxies.
2. This milkyway travels in a specific line at a specific speed.
3. We have not determined the very starting and end points of this line.
4. If we accept this, then one more thing also to be imagined which may or
maynot be true is that the future and past things are available materially for
ever and never been destroyed.
5. Hence in the line of travel of our galaxy or other galaxies past and future exists.
6. We in reality are in present tense.
7. So if any body wants to go past, then he has to travel reverse in the said line
at a speed greater than the speed of milkyway speed or velocity of light.
8. If any wants to go to future , then he has to travel along the line at speeds
greater than the speed of milkyway or light.
9. The magnitude of speed(in multiples) will take you any time period.
10. Gods arrive to earth, may be, using this technology.
:)

swat
2007-Jun-10, 04:01 PM
well what i think is it is possible to travell through time but can never can change the past maybe we can change the future .But we can see the past ,even can do it now ,dont believe?.....ok let me explain The stars we see it is all the past coz thay r millions of light year far away from us we r seeing the star that is millions of years back from now ,Maybe they r already destroyed now.similiarly if we can travel faster than the speed of light than we'll be back to the past that means...let me say something first, we can see the things as light strikes on the object enters through our eyes and can see them right..?so as we travel faster than the light we exceed those lights that striked the object than we can see them again ..For example lets say i'm watching at the train that just passed by me and i have a special craft that can travel faster than the speed of light i ride it and exceed the light that striked the train and i stopped my craft and watch that light, i can see the train passing by me again, and again i took my craft at the speed of the light than i can see the train pausing not moving at all ....can anybody tell me why ??maybe u know it right.....

brianok
2007-Jun-11, 12:43 PM
If I were to go back in time a few years . All (most) of the atoms in my
body would be in 2 places at the same time!

Chuck
2007-Jun-11, 02:33 PM
That's true, but the backward traveling version of you would have negative atoms due to the reversal of time for them. Since 1 - 1 + 1 = 1, there would be a net total of one of each atom.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-11, 04:41 PM
If I were to go back in time a few years . All (most) of the atoms in my
body would be in 2 places at the same time!


Most of the atoms in your body are not the same ones you had a few years ago. Food goes in, poo goes out, cells regenerate, that's what it's all about. (Or I could have finished with, "...and build you a new snout."

Eww. No, I'll stick with version 1.)

publiusr
2007-Jun-15, 06:59 PM
It's all going to take stellar engineering so I don't think we'll be seeing any blue boxes or De Loreans showing up.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-15, 07:01 PM
Hey, swat exctracted a thread from 3 years in the past! Information passing through the time barrier! "Choke on that, causality!" :)

rebel
2007-Jun-18, 02:38 AM
If we look at planets and stars light years away, we see what happened there according to there distance. For instance, when we look at a planet 30 light years away, we see what it looked like 30 years ago.

That makes "time travel" not only real but possible. To give an illustration, Say your traveling toward the same planet, the closer you get to it the shorter the time frame you are looking at that planet. You don't even have to be going the speed of light, just fast enough to get closer from your last observational point. Since you shorten your distance you shorten the "time viewed" from the planet. This would be considered fast forwarding time. Then when traveling away from the planet, would be considered rewinding time. The greater the speed traveled would result in a greater amount of time travel, especially when traveling close to or faster than the speed of light.

Now this isn't going to let you go back and kill your grandmother, but it does show that time travel as well as time is relevant to the observer. This also shows that time is consistent throughout the universe.

To alliterate, if you were traveling at 30 times the speed of light toward the planet. Then you would see what happened on the planet over the past 30 years in a 1 year time period, then visa versa with traveling away. You'd see what happened 30 years prior over a 1 year time period.

So, as you see speed of travel really has nothing to do with "time travel" except the speed you view it at.

01101001
2007-Jun-18, 03:40 AM
To alliterate, if you were traveling at 30 times the speed of light toward the planet. Then you would see what happened on the planet over the past 30 years in a 1 year time period, then visa versa with traveling away. You'd see what happened 30 years prior over a 1 year time period.

Really big "if".

Could you explain how clocks work at 30c so that what would pass on a 30-lightyear voyage would seem like 1 year to the traveler?

rebel
2007-Jun-18, 11:27 PM
01101001,


Really big "if".

Could you explain how clocks work at 30c so that what would pass on a 30-lightyear voyage would seem like 1 year to the traveler?

The only clock that your body knows is your biological clock, see.. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bioclock.cfm

You could also calculate 1 year or wear a wristwatch, you just have to carefully maintain you speed if you want accuracy while fast forwarding or rewinding.

Although the grandmother couldn't be killed before she was born, you could hypothetically watch her be born.

publiusr
2007-Jul-21, 05:28 PM
Our minds are electrical impulses--could their be any relativistic changes that may allow a biological entity to 'feel' speed?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-21, 05:34 PM
Our minds are electrical impulses--could their be any relativistic changes that may allow a biological entity to 'feel' speed?

Our neural impulses are actually rather slow-moving chains of electrochemical reactions. Unless you are in a gravity field strong enough to rip your head apart, there's no way to create a time-dilation ratio large enough for any part of the brain to register a change in the passage of time.

publiusr
2007-Jul-21, 05:54 PM
Slower than light, but still faster than spacecraft--even if it just goes laps in a skull.

keith
2007-Sep-28, 04:11 AM
Depending on the time and day he kills her would tell if he exists in the future.
He could have went back to when he was 2 years old and killed her, he would still be alive

keith
2007-Sep-28, 04:29 AM
If we look at planets and stars light years away, we see what happened there according to there distance. For instance, when we look at a planet 30 light years away, we see what it looked like 30 years ago.

That makes "time travel" not only real but possible. To give an illustration, Say your traveling toward the same planet, the closer you get to it the shorter the time frame you are looking at that planet. You don't even have to be going the speed of light, just fast enough to get closer from your last observational point. Since you shorten your distance you shorten the "time viewed" from the planet. This would be considered fast forwarding time. Then when traveling away from the planet, would be considered rewinding time. The greater the speed traveled would result in a greater amount of time travel, especially when traveling close to or faster than the speed of light.

Now this isn't going to let you go back and kill your grandmother, but it does show that time travel as well as time is relevant to the observer. This also shows that time is consistent throughout the universe.

To alliterate, if you were traveling at 30 times the speed of light toward the planet. Then you would see what happened on the planet over the past 30 years in a 1 year time period, then visa versa with traveling away. You'd see what happened 30 years prior over a 1 year time period.

So, as you see speed of travel really has nothing to do with "time travel" except the speed you view it at.

i Heard of this before. So lets say we were watching Pluto from a space shuttle, and we seen it explode from being hit by an over sized asteroid. We were next to Jupiter when that happened, then that at that point we were to move and i high rate of speed going back towards earth, but still watching Pluto as we move, we would see the actual time Pluto took impact after we already watched it once. Thus, making it seem like rewinding time, when we're actually catching up to the light reflected from Pluto by the sun, making it seem like we're rewinding time, am i right?

Van Rijn
2007-Sep-28, 05:55 AM
i Heard of this before. So lets say we were watching Pluto from a space shuttle, and we seen it explode from being hit by an over sized asteroid. We were next to Jupiter when that happened, then that at that point we were to move and i high rate of speed going back towards earth, but still watching Pluto as we move, we would see the actual time Pluto took impact after we already watched it once. Thus, making it seem like rewinding time, when we're actually catching up to the light reflected from Pluto by the sun, making it seem like we're rewinding time, am i right?

That would only work if you could beat the light already on it's way to Earth, and take breaks to observe the light on your way. That (FTL travel) appears to be physically impossible.

keith
2007-Sep-28, 09:36 PM
Oh ok