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bmiles
2003-Aug-02, 07:16 PM
Hi again! Thanks for all the helpful answers to my question concerning the Earth's axis tilt causing our seasons. Here's a hypothetical followup question with only suppositions for possible answers:
Was the Earth created with a parallel axis to that of the sun thus creating a completely worldwide temperate climate? Could the Genesis flood have caused the Earth's axis to tilt thus giving us our seasons?
I know this may seem "farout" to some of you, but I believe the concept is a possibility if you believe in a Divine Creator as I do! After all, the world before sin was perfect so wouldn't that also indicate a perfect climate, no freezing cold or searing heat? Any theologians out there? :)

Tinaa
2003-Aug-02, 08:24 PM
I think the tilt may have been caused when a planetiod hit the still molton Earth during accretion as the solar system was formed. This fantastic crash blew out so much rock and such that the moon was formed as these particles were drawn together by gravity.

I believe the Earth has about the same amount of water now as when it started. Even if all the polar ice caps melted, it should not change the tilt. Also, the continents are moving around all the time, albeit, very slowly. The huge masses of these plates moving around doesn't cause a cataclysm. Well, the building of the Himalyas is pretty spectacular but that, too, is centimeters at a time.

Something interesting I noted in my research during an Eng. class was that most, if not all, cultures around the world all have a flood myth as well as a creation myth. Makes sense because most cultures lived near rivers and many of these had a yearly flood.

Also, you'd still have freezing cold polar regions and it would probably be very hot at the equator.

Joe
2003-Aug-03, 04:05 AM
bmiles,
I think that the general consensus is that, yes, the Earth was formed with it's axis of rotation perpendicular to the plane of it's orbit. It's sort of hard to conceive of a planet forming out of a spinning ball of gas coming out any other way.
It's generally thought that the one of the effects of the collisions of planetoids, the precursors to planets, is to knock the main body off kilter. Another effect is to create large moons like the Earths.
Did you see the news this week? It's been suggested (and now there's a little evidence) that Mars' small moons (Phobos and Demos) could be the remnents of a much larger body that broke up (basically, it was too close to the planet). This large body presumably would also account for the fact that Mars' axis is tilted almost exactly as much as the Earths.

Like you, I believe that none of this is inconsistent with my (traditional) religious beliefs. The flood, however, seems to be a different event from whatever caused the the tilt of the Earth's axis and the seasons. I too find it interesting that almost every culture has it's own flood myth (and btw, did you know that it's a myth that myths are myths? ;>)

That being said, I understand that ideas of planetary formation are really, really suspect. They're definately different than when I was a student (in the '60s), and definately changing rapidly. I'd bet money that there's going to be a big breakthrough and revisions in our understanding of how planets are formed real soon now!
Joe

Josh
2003-Aug-03, 04:42 AM
Outside of "myth" and whether or not you believe in the bible version or not, there is a layer in there earth that is testament to a worldwide flood. I have no idea whether this is the biblical flood or a freak of nature.

The likelyhood of this being the cause of the earth's tilt is a bit wild though. It's odd that you'd say that a nice warm climate would be perfect. I assume that means that only humans (or even more specifically you) require the perfect climate. Etremes of both hot and cold are necessary for different forms of life to thrive. animals and plants.

DippyHippy
2003-Aug-03, 05:09 AM
I've read books on this and similar subjects, albeit a few years back now... Josh is right... myths of biblical floods (and wise teachers who come to educate primivitive civilisations) are rife throughout the world, even amongst people who have had no conceivable contact with one another.

I don't know the origins of the stories (in terms of possible real-world events) but I find it fascinating. There's also a theory with regards to a shift in the magnetic poles (which *does* periodically occur and which we're long overdue for) - that's very bad news, environmentally, but it's important to note that it's not a shift of the *physical* poles - in other words, the Earth itself is not thought to have physically flipped over.

Lastly, and most wildly, there's a theory that the *crust* of the earth has shifted, like the skin of an apple might if it could, and that it's this that's caused global flooding (and according to some, the destruction of Atlantis)

Make of it what you will. I wish I knew the truth... I find these tales fascinating but alas, without more evidence, I will continue to take it all with a pinch of salt.

Dips

Tinaa
2003-Aug-05, 02:11 AM
The crust of the Earth does shift and move around; it is called plate tetonics, first introduced as continental drift years ago. By comparing the shape of South America and Africa, a scientist noticed that they fit together like pieces of a jigsaw pauzzle. There are huge plates that float around on molten rock. The shifting of these plates can cause earthquakes. The San Andreas Fault in California, USA is a famous one. This, however, is a good thing. If the interior of the Earth were not still molten, it would not be able to produce the magnetic field, which, in turn, protects the Earth from lethal solar radiation.
Plate Tetonics, once thought of as a pretty farout theory, measurements now show that the US and Europe are spreading apart abut two inches a year. Which brings us to the discovery of the strange creatures living in the bottom of the ocean around thermal vents. These require no oxygen, thrive on gases that would kill most, and need no SUNLIGHT. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know!

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-05, 02:47 AM
BRNILES called for theologians, but wouldn't it be better to let the book speak for itself.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Whatever it was which caused the seasons, (which we know to be Earth's tilt)
had to have been since the start. :huh:
As for climate, keep in mind the first inhabitents of Earth lived in one area and did not migrate, until after they were expelled from Eden, which by the way was located exactly where Bagdad is today. :o

So only one climate on Earth was of concern then. The area where man took his first breath.
Ever since there have been many changes in climate all over the world for as many different reasons.

Here is another interesting tidbit.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. :blink:

Which is to say there was no rain in the earliest days of the human race. The first record of rain occuring was the flood.

Gen 7:11b the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Interesting enough, if the polar ice caps were melted, the Earth would be covered with exactly that much water.
Now how did the ancent mythologists figure all this out? <_<
And how do you suppose that boat got up on mount Arrat? Perhaps it was aliens. ;)

Tinaa
2003-Aug-13, 04:10 AM
The Earth is not the only planet with a tilted axis. Uranus makes its way around the sun on its side. Venus rotates in retrograde as does many of the gas planets&#39; moons. Pluto has an extremely elliptical orbit. Can you imagine the weather on other planets?

Fraser
2003-Aug-13, 05:50 PM
Ararat is one of the tallest mountains in the area at over 5,000 metres tall. Supposedly Noah saw the tops of the mountains as the water receeded. That&#39;s way way more than a few cubits, and there&#39;s no way melting the ice caps could produce that much depth. If all the ice in the world was melted, sea levels would only rise about 60 metres, I believe. I live above 60 metres altitude.

As soon as you try to take the bible literally in these areas, it&#39;ll make your head hurt. It&#39;s a story, told and retold for generations. Ever played telephone, where one friend tells another friend a sentence and it gets further mangled with each telling?

The bible is filled with contradictions. It disagrees on when Noah actually went into the ark:

Seven days before the flood...
Gen.7:7-10
And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons&#39; wives with him, into the ark.... And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

The day the flood began...
Gen.7:11-13
In the six hundredth year of Noah&#39;s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah&#39;s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

I&#39;ve got a contradiction (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com) for every day of the year. Just let me know if you need more.

As an athiest, I&#39;m perfectly happy for people to believe in whatever religion they choose, but I find it strange that people would use it to justify or disprove the discoveries of science. Religion and science can and should be two separate entities.

I&#39;ve said in the past that I&#39;m not interested in debating creationism versus evolution, etc, but I&#39;m seeing religion as justification in many conversations on the board, and not enough counter arguments.

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-13, 07:15 PM
I&#39;ll be happy to explain any apparent counterdiction you may present, however I think that should be on a topic by it&#39;self. But as for the one you presented is appallingly easy if one reads what is actually written and not reading into it.waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons&#39; wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

I use ittillics whenever I expound on the Bible so that the reader knows which is the quote and which is my explaning.
Verse 7 is misunderstood as saying that Noah entered the ark, and it began raining 7 days later. But that is clearly not what it says.
It said he entered because of the flood. But the translaters left out the word &#39;coming&#39; before the word flood.
Then vers 10 says that the flood was upon the Earth after 7 days, meaning by the 7th of the 40 days and nights of rain the Earth was beginning to flood.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah&#39;s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah&#39;s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Now we have Noah&#39;s age to the day when the rains of the flood began. Which was also the day he entered the ark. These verses do not say anything about the flood itself, just the rain that produced it.

The order of the verses is not the chronical order in which the events occured, but rather statements of the events. This is known as Scripture build up. One section may not give all the detail, then another section repeats some of the information given and presents additional details, often misunderstood as being different therefore counterdictory to the former. There is no counterdiction here, but a difficultiy in understanding.

On the day the rains began, Noah entered the ark. After it had been raining for seven days, the Earth began to flood. The rains continued for 33 more days making 40 days and 40 nights of rain which caused the flood.

As for the height of the flood.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

This verse doesn&#39;t say the water rose ONLY fifteen cubits, but after giving details of the flood lifting the ark in verse 17, then in verse 18 the waters are still rising and prevailing over land. Here in verse 19 the flood prevailed over all the land and all the high hills were covered.
AFTER that the waters continued to rise fifteen more cubits, which was enough to cover the mountains.

Done quoting scripture. Keep in mind that the oceans and icecaps do not contain all the water of Earth. There is water vapor in the atmosphere, and plants and animals, and we humans are all made up of more water then anything else.
Some water has been converted into other materials over the years so the actual amount of real water is and should be much less then at the time of Noah&#39;s flood.

Hope this anwsers at least some of your questions. I&#39;m not trying to show off or trump anyone. The Bible should be taken literally. But there are exceptions too, such as figures of speech, and places where the customs of the people of the time
are taken into account.

Taking the Bible literally does not make my head hurt, but when theologions and other self proclaimed experts interpret the Bible to their standards, and use it to propound their beliefs, the confusion it causes for those who don&#39;t know the book very well occasionally gives me big headachs when I try to explain the truth, because I often and erringly get associated with those bubblehead, hypocritical idiots, who don&#39;t know what they claim.

However it is worth it when I confront some high flueten Reverend or Pastor with more PhDs in theology then I have years alive, and show them how stupid they really are, by making the Bible plain enough for anyone to understand, and show they are clearly wrong.

That kind of trumping I love to do and practially live for.

Hey I gotta get out of here and go to work.

DippyHippy
2003-Aug-18, 03:16 AM
Hey Tina :)

You misunderstood... I wasn&#39;t talking about plate tectonics... there is a theory that&#39;s mostly unaccepted (I haven&#39;t made my mind up about it - too little evidence) that says the entire crust of the Earth could shift as a whole, not in fragments, almost as if the skin of an orange could move... er, that sentence doesn&#39;t make much sense but hey, it&#39;s 4am LOL

I hope you see what I mean though...

Dips

Don Sevendy
2003-Aug-22, 02:23 PM
Why should the Bible be taken literally? Why should any claim of devine revelation be taken seriously? Why should any incredibly sparse account of geological history--such as the Noah flood myth--trump decades of well documented scientific effort?

Can you name one scientific theory (and I&#39;m talking about an accepted, working theory, not some creationist philosophical speculation) that has emerged from Biblical literalism? Relativity? Quantum mechanics? Continental drift? Genetics? The sun-centered solar system? The large-scale structure of the universe? Germ theory of disease? The basic neurology of the human mind? The primate bases of human psychology and society? Solid state electronics? The musical preferences of American teenagers? Anything?

Attempts to "fit" modern science to any particular religious text are wastes of time and reason. You&#39;re part of this universe, you&#39;re stuck here, and you&#39;re not going anywhere else--do you really have time to waste?

kjargirl
2003-Aug-23, 09:50 PM
Wow, this is quite a discussion. I hadn&#39;t read this topic until today. I&#39;m almost afraid to chime in, but here&#39;s my 2 cents.

About the original topic, I read a book quite a few years ago called "Pole Shift" (can&#39;t remember the author) and if I remember correctly, the jist of the book was that a sudden shift in the location of the magnetic poles caused the Earth to change it&#39;s position. This caused climate change all over the world, like floods, and tropical places on the equator were suddenly at the poles and became cold. I believe the book said a pole shift may have been the cause of the extinction of the dinosaurs. The author&#39;s proof was a wooly mammoth that was found encased in ice and just before it froze to death, it had eaten fresh grass. The book also warned that another pole shift could occur again, and I think the author predicted one to happen around 2000. So, watch out, it could happen any day now.

My feelings about religions are that all religions are valid, and one is as good as another. In other words, I don&#39;t think there is one "true" religion. Religions are human interpretations of things we deem Divine. There are so many diferent religions in the world because there are so many different people in the world. Different people express their spirituality in different ways. And basically every religion has messed up somewhere along the line (the Crusades, killing in the name of God or Allah, etc), but they are still around because most people need to feel connected with the Divine in some way.

I call myself a Christian, am very active in my church, but the closest I feel to God is when I&#39;m out looking at the stars.

Fraser
2003-Aug-23, 10:17 PM
In reply to Don, I think that creationists try to find scientific evidence for their beliefs as a way to justify their faith. Faith alone is a difficult thing to maintain, so if you can find evidence that matches what the bible says, then it must help people solidify their faith. Of course, when you see how much the bible seems to get wrong about the natural world, I find it strange that people will cling to it - it&#39;s almost like they&#39;re setting themselves up to have their faith shattered. If you tie your faith to what a book says about a natural phenomenon and then the weight of scientific evidence overturns what the book (in this case, the bible) says, then you&#39;re faith is going to take a beating. but if you disconnect your faith from a literal interpretation of the bible, then you&#39;re free to experience both the joy of your religion and the wonder of the natural world.

Don Sevendy
2003-Aug-23, 11:30 PM
To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to rapidly tilt a planet&#39;s axis short of a catastrophic impact. There&#39;s also no way to sell a book which says "there is no way to rapidly tilt a planet&#39;s axis short of a catastrophic impact".

Don Sevendy
2003-Aug-23, 11:34 PM
All religions, like all flood myths, can be equally valid; but they cannot all be valid.

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-24, 06:35 AM
Okay, in reply to Don Sevendy&#39;s challange I CAN explain all the legit science&#39;s you mentioned. But I can&#39;t imagine a teenager&#39;s choice of music as scientific.
That&#39;s just plain cynical.

Keep the issues one at a time. It&#39;s not like I have nothing better to do then sit on a computer and reply to stupid questions for those who do not want a real anwser, or are too closed minded to consider the possibilities.

And please understand, this is going to take an enormus amount of time, even going one at a time. It&#39;s quite possible that we never get past the first few on the list. But one point I want to clearify first.

I never made the claim nor has anyone with serious Biblical knowledge that I know of ever said that the tilt of Earth&#39;s axles was related to the universal flood.
They are seperate unrelated events.
I have and still maintain that Earth as we know it today has always had the very same tilt at least back to Genisis 1:10 when God made dry land appear on Earth.
Before that, I can not say, because I honestly don&#39;t know, but neither do any of you know for sure.
Now onward.

Relativity, I need you to be more specific of what you are looking for in relativity, and please keep in mind I do not have a college degree which enables me to understand the mathamatics and deeper aspects involved. I have no doubt that science can be found in relativity, but my knowledge of that subject is limited, and so will be my anwser.

Quantium mechanics or rather quantium physics as I know it.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

2 Cor. 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Don asked for one verse, here are four references. I&#39;ll not explain them now, but I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll be asked to. But for now, I&#39;m just giving the references to literally meet the chalenge.

Continental drift In itself is not addressed in the Bible. However it is related to, and part of a much larger issue.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This one will take many pages alone to explain. There is a man made translation error in verse 2. The word &#39;was&#39; is not in the Hebrew Bible, from which what we have today origionated from.
This is because the verb &#39;to be&#39; is not in the accaint Hebrew language.
The correct verb is &#39;to become&#39;. I&#39;ll give the verse again with only that change.

Gen 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness came to be upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This makes all the difference of how the rest of the chapter is read, and percieved.

The way it is printed implies that God made heaven and Earth from nothing, because it was without form and void. In that light the error of percieption is that the rest of the chapter is parenthintical of how God went about creating everything in the beginning.

But in proper translation, and context we learn that God made heaven and Earth in the beginning.
But something of catastrofical nature happened (not the flood) which caused heaven and Earth to become without form and void.

Verse 3 begins the story of how God remade the heavens and Earth.
Not how it origionally was made.

I can not tell you what all existed before God said, "Let there be light," although I do know some of it which I&#39;ll expoud on another time.
Nor can I tell you how much time elapsed between the first creation and the catastrofy, or how long the catastrofy took, or how much time elapsed before God said, "Let there be light."

It could have been minutes, or it could have been 14 billion years. No one knows for sure.

If you want big bangs, cave men, dinosaurs, ice ages, contental drifts, and mass extinctions, you can have it all without dispute, so long as it was before God spoke light into being. None of that counterdicts the Bible, only what some people think they understand from the Bible.
As I said, this one is a very big one by itself, but moving on.

Genetics This one can become nearly as big, but like quantium physics, I&#39;ll just give scripture, and explain when I&#39;m asked.

Gen. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Gen. 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God [U]made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

I don&#39;t know how my underlining, ittilics, and bold lettering is going to look in this posting. But I&#39;m pointing out here everything after it&#39;s kind, which is just about the simpleist diffination of genitics you can get. Again, these are the foundation of sciences, recorded Bibilically, long before man discovered these sciences.

The sun-centered solar system

Gen 1:4b and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas:

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

Again this explains in terms that people of the times could understand.
There is nothing here about Earth being center of the universe, and everything revolving around it. That came much later propounded by men expressing their own personal beliefs.
The Bible properly places Earth IN the solar system with it&#39;s primary source of energy being light from the Sun. Although it does not specifficly name the Sun, nor does it name anything else, little doubt can remain of exactly what is UNDER the firmament Heaven.

The large-scale structure of the universe

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness came to be upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Read and reread this section very carefully and note the context of time in relation to events. Especially what are the waters, and what is the firmament.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

You want to talk about large scale structure of the universe, here it is, and boy, is it&#33; Even the most advid of those who call themselves astronamers can not understand the enormenity of the waters and the firmament.
Most people think it is the land and seas, but not so. Those were made AFTER the firament.

To make it very simple everything within the firmament is the universe we see and understand. But there is much more yet.
The firmament is but a bubble within a much greater abyss of water. And what is beyond that? More then any of us can comprehand.

Here I&#39;ve handed on a plate not one, but five different sciences which origionated from the Bible, thousands of years before our post dark ages science minded, supposely, educated men began to form theories of who we are, and what is out there. I can go on, but I&#39;m getting tired, it&#39;s becoming very late, and my wife has already gone to bed and called for me twice. So I&#39;ll end here for now.

Arramon
2003-Aug-24, 07:51 AM
yeah, i&#39;d have to say that that was easier to understand than any literal translation i&#39;ve heard... from church, pastors, or even momma...

i&#39;ll take a full translation, thanx =)
whats that, &#036;29.95?

:D
. ..-={A}=-.. .

Don Sevendy
2003-Aug-24, 02:46 PM
WARNING--ad hominem insult follows:

(I never thought that it would be so easy to get someone to waste so much of their time generating such a lame response.)

All you have done is try to fit current scientific knowledge--unsuccessfully, as your "quantum physics" and "solar system" sections show-- to cryptic passages from ancient texts, but in none of these texts can anyone not knowledgable of current theories get any insight whatever into the emerging scientific theories of the universe. If there was was something in the Bible that was not dumbed-down to "terms that people of the times could understand" I might be more impressed with your arguments. It would be easy enough for the Bible to state that the earth is spherical and X number of cubits from the sun, which is Y cubits across, but that would require a direct revelation from the Almighty, wouldn&#39;t it?

It is a classic defense of pseudoscience to declare one&#39;s opponents "narrow minded". I will wear your award openly and proudly.

budcamp
2003-Aug-24, 03:15 PM
Since water will seek its own level one must assume the earth was flooded to the same depth everywhere. Except it was probably a bit deeper at the equator due to centrifugal force. Since it is pretty evenly distributed, it should not cause any tilt. However, if God used his supernatural powers to make all of that water pile up on one spot; it would unbalance the world and the tilt of the axis could very well have resulted. He once made the sun stop in its orbit around the earth, so I guess He could make water pile up if He wished.

Bud

Fraser
2003-Aug-24, 04:18 PM
Remember Fraser&#39;s one and only rule for this forum.


All I ask is that people be respectful and behave nicely.

It&#39;s a good point, though. Are there any unknowns in science that the bible reports to explain that can be experimentally proven?

And for skeptics, are there any passages in the bible which are blatantly wrong? The world is flat, there are only two kinds of whales, that kind of thing?

Arramon
2003-Aug-25, 02:44 PM
Not all accounts of Scripture is contained within the Bible, just what the Roman church wanted in.... who knows what other passages may say or hold what meanings...

People in this world tend to be stingy with information that could benefit ALL mankind... all resources should be taken in, used, analyzed... new creations/discoveries brought in, used, analyzed.. for newer creations/discoveries to be made, and brought in.... to be used and analyzed...and repeating until we have creations and discoveries that are so profound we can&#39;t help but share it with all of mankind, because we would have been doing it for so long.

Then where would we be?

God and magical powers... thats a good one. :P

The whole universe is one great magical power&#33;

Maybe Planet X passed near the earth at around that time, and totally screwed with the gravitational forces here... =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

Planetwatcher
2003-Aug-30, 07:40 PM
(I never thought that it would be so easy to get someone to waste so much of their time generating such a lame response.)
I thought it possible that Mr. Sevendy actually wanted an anwser. However, my time and effort was not a waste, because somebody who really wants to know will learn something, and that makes it worth it.

But now I will pose a double sided question to the critics.
Suppose you are right and I am wrong. Suppose there is no supreame being with supernatural powers, that all that there is here is some cosmic coincidence, or whatever one would like to call it. If such is the case, what do I have to lose with what you may call a superstitious belief?
Nothing. And what do you gain. Nothing at all.

But on the other hand, what if the Bible is right, and you are wrong? What if there is a life form with abilities we call supernatural, and he used his abilities to perform exactly as the Bible states. And belief in this being will make you imortal at some future time.
If all this is true after all, what do I gain, and what do you lose?
Perhaps a new angle to think about.
But I&#39;m not here to preach. You are free to believe what you want, as am I.

I literally supplied exactly the proof that Don Sevendy requested, and it was still not good enough, nor will it ever be. Both he and Frasier ask for what has already been provided.

Both Frasier, and Don Sevendy also ask for the Bible to supply something which is today unknown, and unproven.
Such information would be mute, because if it&#39;s unknown or unproven, then it&#39;s still not available by the means which would prove or dis prove it.

And besides, what about information supplied by the Bible thousands of years ago which had since been proven by scientific means. Such as a giant boat high on Mt. Ararat, which just happens to be where the Bible says it landed.
Or carbon dated evidence uncovered in the last hundred years which details a world wide flood some 5,000 or so years ago, which by some amazing coincidence is in the Bible.
Old time prophets knew the world was round many hundreds and even thousands of years before Columbus sailed from Europe.

I&#39;m not using the Bible to fit my belief. I did not write the book. My belief fits the Bible because that is where I found it.

So where does that leave us?
Are we so prideful of a race that we can&#39;t believe that there may be someone who is smarter then us?

But then someone tells you that spirital, supernatural beings which humans, have worshiped, or dreaded through out human history use scientific means we do not understand for their exploits, which we call supernatural. But since I said the word supernatural, that makes it mystical, and superstitus, right? Wrong.
What about black holes? Quazers? Pulsars? Supernove? Wormholes? Intersteller travel faster then light?
Those are supernatural as well. Why? Because they are superier to natural laws of physics as we understand them.

As are a universal flood, parting the Red Sea, and creating a human from the elements of the Earth.

What is the difference? Only perceiption. And that some actor is not speaking into a made for TV prop, asking Scotty to beam them up.

budcamp
2003-Aug-31, 12:05 AM
what if the Bible is right, and you are wrong? What if there is a life form with abilities we call supernatural, and he used his abilities to perform exactly as the Bible states. And belief in this being will make you imortal at some future time. If all this is true after all, what do I gain, and what do you lose?


What if there is a god and he hates Christians? Bal for instance or Tamalpopoka or others of the vengeful gods who resent people who put other gods before them. If you believe in the Christian god, you will be in worse shape that we who believe in no god at all.

Christians always think the choice is between believing in their god or none at all. Many of these gods are very nasty, so you better watch out how you bad mouth them. They just might exist.

Bud

Planetwatcher
2003-Sep-01, 02:15 AM
[What if there is a god and he hates Christians? Bal for instance or Tamalpopoka or others of the vengeful gods who resent people who put other gods before them. If you believe in the Christian god, you will be in worse shape that we who believe in no god at all.

Christians always think the choice is between believing in their god or none at all. Many of these gods are very nasty, so you better watch out how you bad mouth them. They just might exist.]

Good question.

In which case yes the question would apply to me as well.
My reply is I have checked into the others enough for myself to determine for myself that I would rather not pursue their interpretations, and or ways.

Rest assured what I believe and teach could stand the scruntany of an American court of law. Which can not be said for Charles Darwin&#39;s book &#39;The Evolution of Species&#39; if taken as a whole.
Oh there are a lot of very good parts to it, but there is also some very big holes.
The most unexplainable of which is known as the missing link.

In stark contrast the Bible if taken as a whole and allowed to speak for itself, rather then some other human&#39;s interpretation, has no counterdictions, no holes, no missing links.
But keep in mind the conditions I have set here. Taken as a whole, and allowed to speak for itself, literally.

Very few humans can meet that challange, because they can&#39;t get past the first rule of understanding the Bible, which the Bible sets itself.

Arramon
2003-Sep-02, 02:44 PM
Not a court of law.. a court of self....

...this is a posting needing a HUGE reply... =P big here&#39;s my short version....


All beliefs could NEVER be strutinized enough to be able to choose a definite "i believe this over that.." religions have been destroyed that others haven&#39;t even heard of... Its the fact of placing an image(a false recognition), composed of whats most personal and inwardly felt (and could be judged as true by your own heart & mind), before your true self... and if not distinguished, it is disguising your inner form from your perceptive view on things and life around you..
You&#39;re chance for you to be you....
More, what makes you feel the need to be the exact preportioning of your mind to your body inwhich all aspects of your being are represented and allowed to be expressed as truthfully and honestly as possible... allowing your form of natural instictiveness to become expressed upon a full realization of self... an understanding of your own true motives behind your reasoning to live.

Just trying to be you is hard enough without having to be what someone else wants us to....


...then again.... thats just me... =)

. ..-={A}=-.. .

(ooo....i need coffee....... its only 7:40am..... =)

Planetwatcher
2003-Sep-07, 05:42 AM
Good points Arramon. I suppose I need to correct myself.
What I personally believe is subject to self, with one exception.
The inherent accuracy of the Bible within itself, without human intervention, or intrepretation will stand the scruntty of any fair fact finding court.

But as soon as anyone introduces their own views (which is difficult for most humans not to) the whole thing crumbles, and you will have chaos such as is present today among religious minds of the world.

The Bible itself is as exact as math, means what it says, and says what it means.
This can not be said about the book of Morman, the Koran or any other religious document. It stands alone as The Word of God and is just that absolute.

But because the author God,(not the script writers, men), allows us freedom of will, we also have the freedom to believe as we want.
Or to believe nothing if we want. That causes no end of confusion to humans who impart their own morality to be the Almighty&#39;s will. Then when it doesn&#39;t happen according to some human&#39;s will they rebel, become angry, and even bitter, eventually deciding their best action is to not believe in this God, because God did not bring about this person&#39;s will.

This becomes expecially significant when dealing with the natural end of human life known as death, meaning the physical aspect.

Some loved one who doesn&#39;t seem deserving, dies, and usually horribly at that.
That&#39;s when people question the most in their human logic of how could a just and holy God allow such a wonderful loved one to die, or to die so horribly.

Again, the anwser is just as simple, but not very consoling therefore usually not accepted. Which is, it is allowed by the very same virtue which allows you to believe as you want or if you want to believe at all.
God&#39;s intervention would violate that very same freedom of will, because if he were to interviene in a person&#39;s death, then he would by the same logic have to impose his Word upon you, meaning you no longer have a choice, which in turn can&#39;t save a man from his shortcomings, or sins if you will.

We would not have minds of our own, but a mutual conscienceness, with no objective or purpose for living. In essance we might as well be robots.
But we are not robots, we have freedom of will, our minds are ours, our beliefs alone can save us or damm us. The choice is ours, which is why it is important that the choice be given.

Sometimes that choice is given more times then we would like and in some annoying ways, and sometimes the choice is even distorted to someone else&#39;s will, with aspects added and aspects deleted, and aspects changed until it is no longer what it was intended, but becomes something very different, like playing the game &#39;telephone&#39;.
But even then it is still a choice, with each human making it as personal as possible. By then it has undergone many changes, and when a group of people embrace the same set of varations as their own beliefs, it becomes religion.

Religion is simply mankind watering down God&#39;s word to fit their personal opinions, but that is not how it started. Just what it has become when we introduce our personal opinions, and interpretations as God&#39;s Word and will, but it is still far better then having no choice.

Haglund
2003-Oct-06, 01:07 PM
Was the Earth created with a parallel axis to that of the sun thus creating a completely worldwide temperate climate?

The Earth has not always tilted 23.5 degrees. It is changing with a cycle of about 26000 years if I remember correctly. 13000 years from now, our "new" stella polaris will be Vega, and in another 13000 years, the usual Polaris will "be back" again.



Could the Genesis flood have caused the Earth&#39;s axis to tilt thus giving us our seasons? I know this may seem "farout" to some of you, but I believe the concept is a possibility if you believe in a Divine Creator as I do&#33; After all, the world before sin was perfect so wouldn&#39;t that also indicate a perfect climate, no freezing cold or searing heat? Any theologians out there?

Whether or not you believe in a global sudden flood, and whether there is evidence for it, are two different matters. This flood was apparently not recorded anywhere else...? While the evidence is absent, so will my belief be... Obviously.

Josh
2003-Oct-06, 01:15 PM
Not to add fuel to this misplaced religious debate but ... a lot of ancient civilizations and religions have a flood story/myth/legend/rumour/chronical/...

Haglund
2003-Oct-06, 01:26 PM
Such as which ones? did they occurr at the same time?

kashi
2003-Oct-06, 01:39 PM
If the world was created with a uniform climate prior to the great flood, how did polar bears, arctic penguins, tropical parrots, and dessert dwelling snakes all survive simultaneously? Considering that humans were supposedly present during this flood (eg. Noah), it must have been relatively recently in geological terms. These animals would not have had enough time to evolve to their current states between then and now, so they must have existed prior to the flood, and have already evolved. How did the plants on Earth survive prior to the flood without seasonal variation? The bible is full of ridiculous contradictions.

I&#39;m with you on this one 100% Don&#33; There is no point in believing in religion because we are scared of what might happen on the off chance that it is correct. I wouldn&#39;t want anything to do with a God that uses fear tactics anyway.

Planetwatcher:

If all this is true after all, what do I gain, and what do you lose?
What we have to lose, is our ability to see things objectively, and to advance as a civilisation. Centuries were wasted because of humanity&#39;s obsession with religion. These centuries are rightly called "the dark ages".

Kashi

Josh
2003-Oct-06, 01:41 PM
Well... in the chinese tradition a great flood at the same time (give or take a few years) as the biblical flood is recorded. I have no idea if the chinese say this was godsent or not. Babylonian texts (well .. their equivalent) talk about it too. Outside of these cultural reports there are, as far as I know (ie have read about), layers within the earth that show that there has been at least one worldwide flood. The evidence is found in terms of beds of sandstone, clay, shale, etc, all of which must have been placed where they are as the settling of great, sudden and violent floods.

Now ... often times myths have their roots in truth anyway. To my mind it is more likely that there was a devestating flood which the people attributed to a god rather than the other way around which says that a bunch of different civilizations made up the same story.

kashi
2003-Oct-06, 02:00 PM
The poor polar bear walking around on a nice tropical island.

Haglund
2003-Oct-06, 02:15 PM
A global flood would require much more water than what there is on Earth, as far as I know. Where did it come from, and where did it go? Local floods I can agree on. How could the people back then know that a flood was global, anyway? They had no knowledge about most of the rest of the world?

Dave Mitsky
2003-Oct-08, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Parker@Oct 6 2003, 01:07 PM

Was the Earth created with a parallel axis to that of the sun thus creating a completely worldwide temperate climate?

The Earth has not always tilted 23.5 degrees. It is changing with a cycle of about 26000 years if I remember correctly. 13000 years from now, our "new" stella polaris will be Vega, and in another 13000 years, the usual Polaris will "be back" again.



Could the Genesis flood have caused the Earth&#39;s axis to tilt thus giving us our seasons?* I know this* may seem "farout" to some of you, but* I believe the concept is a possibility if you believe in a Divine Creator as I do&#33; After all, the world before sin was perfect so wouldn&#39;t that also indicate a perfect climate, no freezing cold or searing heat?* Any theologians out there?

Whether or not you believe in a global sudden flood, and whether there is evidence for it, are two different matters. This flood was apparently not recorded anywhere else...? While the evidence is absent, so will my belief be... Obviously.
What you are describing is known as precession. It is the result of the Earth&#39;s slow, top-like wobble around its axis and does not affect the axial tilt but only which direction to which the poles point. (The magnitude of the tilt does vary by a few degrees on a semi-regular basis with a period of about 45,000 years.)

Presumably the 23.5 degree tilt was caused during the Big Whack when a planetoidal impactor known as Orpheus struck the young Earth about 4.5 billion years ago.

Dave Mitsky

I, Brian
2003-Oct-11, 07:05 AM
As to the original question of the Genesis Flood - there are Flood Myths about most cultures. Some Christians argue this therefore means that there was a worldwide flood.

More prosaicly, perhaps, it is more likely just a symptom of the fact that human cultures always settled by sources of water - most commonly, water courses. And, of course, water courses rarely flood catastrophically.

Therefore the existence of Flood Myths worldwide is a reflection of very real local human histories, rather than a global one.

Planetwatcher
2003-Oct-11, 06:56 PM
...And Noah&#39;s ark, which was found high on Mt. Ararat, right where it was said to be was a local myth too wasn&#39;t it.

Kashi said that it must have been fairly recent for animals to have not evolved differently. I think that is a given.
I can&#39;t tell you how polar bears got to the artics, or how rattle snakes got into the western United States. Nobody ever found their bus tickets.

Parker said a universal flood would have required more water then is on Earth today. Another given. If that water was still here in its old form then we&#39;d still be flooded. But water evaporates, it freezes, it soaks into the Earth, it is over 90% of the human body&#39;s composition, as well as animals, and plants.
So where is all the water from the universal flood? Where did it go?
It is in your body, in your spouses body, in your pet whatever, in the cement that built your roads, and your communitity.
In the wood, which came from the trees which was watered. In the lava and ash from the Mt. St. Helen&#39;s 1980 eruption.

It is in the last rainfall in your area, and in the first snowflake you see next month. In the snow you plow and shovel this winter, and in the garden you water next spring. It is even in the beverage you are drinking as you read my posting, and think about how lame my reply is.
It cooled the plastic metals your computer is made of before it came out of it&#39;s mold. It is even in the plastic and metals. It&#39;s in the glass window off to your side.

Water from the universal flood is everywhere, in many forms, in changed chemical composition, as well as in the great lakes, the seas, and polar ice caps.
You have the ability to ask for evidence of a universal flood because it is why you are now here. Not some great cosmic accident.

But nobody has explained how a yaht sized boat got most of the way up a mountain.
Maybe the Egyptians hauled it up there piece by piece, before they built the pyrmids and the Spinix, just so that the Christians today can present evidence to a 4,000 year old fairy tale.

Speaking of the Egyptians, do any of you know how they got a hold of so much gold as what they had in their accent culture?

To get that much gold, they must have built up a good share of their agracultural reserves over a span of good crop years, and held it until a great famane spanning several years occured, and then sold their grain for gold, (at greatly inflated rates) But that was a local myth too wasn&#39;t it.

Haglund
2003-Oct-11, 10:05 PM
Not surprisingly, it was a hoax. If it&#39;s not, then where is the evidence? And why am I asking for evidence that would prove a fictional story?

all_isone
2003-Oct-11, 11:10 PM
:huh: i dont think there is any use trying to cross examinate scientific &#39;evidence&#39; in religious traditions/ chronicles.
Noah could very well be just a parable, of a religious/philosophical/teaching impact,
how can you seriously talk about Noah on scientific level in year 2003 ?

Matthew
2003-Oct-12, 03:59 AM
If you remember the bible never says anything about putting on microscopic life onboard Noah&#39;s ark, they didn&#39;t know about microscopic life when the bible was written, but surely microscopic life would have had too go onto the ark to survive.

kashi
2003-Oct-12, 09:04 AM
Planetwatcher, the water you mention would be a miniscule fraction of what is required to flood the whole Earth. Honestly&#33; Do the math it you&#39;ll see how ridiculous it is.

I&#39;ve talked to someone who knows alot about the bible, and apparently in the original Hebrew translation, the word for "whole Earth" technically just means "the known Earth". It could have been just that region that was flooded.

This doesn&#39;t explain why Noah needed to save the animals. Perhaps this is just a metaphor for saving a few of his prize winning goats :P

Josh
2003-Oct-13, 01:35 AM
Firstly, Matthew, the bible says "animals" and then goes to describe them as beasts, birds ... etc. Microscopic life forms aren&#39;t considered animals.

Now ... I&#39;m sure yesterday I read in here that Parker wrote about 8 things or questions regarding the ark story. Where did that post go? Parker? did you remove it? Now most of those 8 I would have said could be explained away using religious texts etc .. BUT ... the question (unless I dreamt that i read this) about being able to trace back every animal on earth to mt ararat in Turkey got me. I can&#39;t see how the bible answers that one. The only answer I can see believers able come up with is "It&#39;s a miracle". So how did an indigenous kangaroos of australia, for eg, manage to make there way to the ark and then when it stopped make it back to australia without any trail of dead kangaroos along the way and without other settlements of kangaroos throughout the world .. given that it only happened about 3500 years ago.

Yeah .. good question.

Josh
2003-Oct-13, 04:50 AM
Ahh .. the stuff about Noah and his ark antics is in the Bible and the Big Bang thread on this (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=772&st=45&hl=) page close to the bottom. I knew I wasn&#39;t going crazy

zephyr46
2003-Oct-13, 05:43 AM
Are you denying the earth is flat still, DO YOU DENY THE EXISTANCE OF GOD&#33;
DO YOU HOLD TO YOUR BEILIEF THAT THE EARTH REVOLVES AROUND THE SUN&#33;
PAGAN :angry: PAGAN :angry: BURN Josh at the STAKE him and parker his non believing freinds BRING BACK THE INQUISITION :angry:

WHEN will you sinners learn, repent repent, or your sole will surly burn in HELL :angry:

AMEN :wacko:

anyone got a coke :unsure:

Josh
2003-Oct-13, 11:04 AM
Hell is going to be one hell of an interesting place. And you can&#39;t burn me at the stake ... I&#39;m vegetarian. Burn my at a celery stick (celery ... YUCK).

Haglund
2003-Oct-13, 11:06 AM
Hehe, yes I admit that I do not believe in the big guy in the sky. I admit it; I&#39;m an atheist heathen satanist pagan. I have no excuse ;-)


Serious note:
A belief that needs to be upheld by the means of terror, oppression and burning people, is a belief that completely lacks evidence or support in any way. (As if we didn&#39;t know that already&#33;)

Matthew
2003-Oct-13, 11:18 AM
Ah, but there are &#39;animals&#39; that the human eye cannot see. Are they microscopic?

Or maybe I&#39;m just mistaken.

Josh
2003-Oct-14, 01:16 AM
Parker .. you satanist. If you are a satanist you have to accept that satan was a fallen angel and created by god. How do you explain THAT? hehe

zephyr46
2003-Oct-14, 01:30 AM
Terror? Is that how we can save your eternal soul, hangon :huh:

Serious note, if we all have eternal souls, I guess time must be infinate and therefore, theologically speaking, so must space :)

What&#39;s the matter Josh :angry: Isn&#39;t Gods meat good enough for Ya :angry: Eh, Eh?

ps I&#39;m vegatarian as well

Arramon
2003-Oct-14, 03:02 PM
you guys are freakin me out here =/

... :mellow:

:unsure:

um... are people burning yet?
...did i miss the good parts? did any1 bring marshmellows...?

=P

starrman
2003-Oct-17, 01:18 AM
the thread seems to have wandered a great deal over the course of the discussion, but in a (possibly futile) attempt to return to one of the orriginal topics i must say that the current thinking regarding the axial tilt of the earth is understood as being a relic of the formation of the earth-moon system. the collision of the primordial bodies that resulted in our current "double planet" system, a circumstance which is unique in our solar system, was almost certainly the cause of the earth&#39;s current 23.5 degree tilt. in the view of many biologists, the seasonal variation resulting from our axial inclination, together with the complex tidal effects of the moon on our oceans and weather, is largely responsible for creating the conditions on earth that make life possible.

starrman

starrman
2003-Oct-17, 01:30 AM
Planetwatcher said:


...And Noah&#39;s ark, which was found high on Mt. Ararat, right where it was said to be was a local myth too wasn&#39;t it.


found? when? and where is it now?

and on Mt. Ararat? which Mt. Ararat? the one in present-day turkey? or the one in gaza? or the one in syria?

enquiring minds want to know.

starrman