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View Full Version : WAR !! Good God Y'all!



g-man
2003-Sep-26, 08:17 AM
In the USA we have our "peace-time" forces stretched dangerously thin all over the globe. We have already called to active duty thousands of reservists. Reinstating the "Draft" is an unspoken (in the media, so far) very real possibilty. What are you going to do if called to put your life on the line in some remote third world nation that is not even on the map? Do you really care and if so why?

G-Man

kashi
2003-Sep-26, 09:21 AM
Attention should go towards helping third world countries, not bombing countries like Iraq that pose no threat to the United States or any of its allies. By help I don't mean cultural imperialism.

What happened to the great peaceful nation that was the United States prior to WW2? Now it seems they have a policy of aggression.

How could anyone put their life on the line to promote such a corrupt cause?

Kashi

Tinaa
2003-Sep-26, 11:59 AM
Before WWII, the US enjoyed a period where we were, in effect, insulated and isolated from most of the rest of the world by two oceans. However, technology began to make this a very small world. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, this sleeping giant was indeed awaken, and in a very bad mood! And wasn't much of the free world glad that we entered that war!
Although many people in the US would love to retreat into isolation again, it is just not possible. Crossing the oceans is as easy as catching a ride across town. We, much to our consternation, seem to be the world's police force, and you know how much cops are respected! It is funny how we are expected to pay for such things as up keep, etc. for the United Nations, with American tax dollars, a place for many of the nations of the world are all supposed to meet. Yet we face nations that are severe violaters of human rights on the human rights committee chairs.
Sometimes we do stick our nose in others business and sometimes we get the war dropped on our doorstep. I don't think the Europeans were upset when thousands of Americans lives were lost fighting WWII. In fact where would they be today with out the help we provided? Where would the world be?
Why are people surprized when the sleeping giant again is rudely routed from it's slumber? I don't always like the policies of my country, but I would die for it any day, any time, any where. It ain't perfect, but I have yet to see a better place to be!

Faulkner
2003-Sep-26, 12:44 PM
I have yet to see a better place to be!

I think Australia is better than America, but then again I also think maybe Holland is better than Australia.

So you see, Tinaa, America ain't that important to the rest of the world!

Don't let irrational patriotism get in the way of cold hard scientific logic!

PeterG
2003-Sep-26, 05:20 PM
It is an old joke/serious point going back to the 70's that the best thing for America is to re-instate the draft. My brother was a Navy pilot in the Med when Iraq invaded Kuwait. I tell you there are no set of people more committed to strict isolationalism and avoiding war than the familes of those actively serving in the military.

As long as you are just killing volunteers, both the politicians and the public can be lulled into thinking that war doesn't cost anything. If the American soldiers currently in Iraq were mostly draftees, they would be such an outcry as to what is going on that they would all be home next week. The one thing Bush couldn't get away with is to look in the the TV camera and tell the Moms and Dads of America that he is drafting their sons to die for Halliburton.

DippyHippy
2003-Sep-27, 01:14 AM
Whilst I like the US and have been there 5 times (with a 6th trip planned for November) I have to say it's the actual countryside and pace of life I'm drawn to - most of the people are very nice but there are a-holes everywhere in the world.

That said, I still have to ask... have you travelled much, Tina?

There's no way on Earth I'd claim my home country of England was the best in the world without travelling extensively elsewhere...

Dips

Fraser
2003-Sep-27, 01:31 AM
I like the US - I've been there dozens of times. I've found that the people on a whole are some of the nicest I've met in the world. Ironically, some of the nicest were in New York. :-0

KB3HTS
2003-Sep-27, 01:57 AM
If the draft were started up again one of the most interesting things about it is women would also be drafted (not in all parts of the army but some). Just an interesting thought people don't think about much...
As for me, I believe in this country so if I had to I would fight for it. (Don't think I'd be much help to the army but that's beside the point!) Even if that meant a faraway third-world country.
Another random comment: could you imagine what the world would say if we decided to pull out the army from every place we were helping out so we could station them at the US borders instead? You can't do it anymore, it's called globalization for a reason...

Tinaa
2003-Sep-27, 03:36 AM
I have traveled some. My first husband was in the army, stationed in Germany, so we traveled around Europe and I have been to Mexico. I enjoyed most of Europe and found most people eager to be friendly with me, especially since I was from Texas. It was amusing that so many were "hooked" on the show Dallas (early 80's). I never watched the show, so I'm afraid many were disappointed in meeting a real-live Texan. They seemed to think all Texans had an oilwell and rode horses. I do drive a pick-up and can ride a horse, but, alas, no oilwells.

I am sorry you don't feel where you live is best. I am not always happy with the decisions my gov't makes but I am free to cast my vote for the person I want to represent me. I am free to pursue any career I want, to read any book I like, to attend, or not, any house of worship, etc. I am not happy with most of the new security nonsense. I feel that many freedoms are being removed under the guise of National Security. I make my feelings known by writing my congessmen/women. The school system needs a major revamp, the military needs a raise, the congress needs a pay cut, it gets way too hot and humid here, etc. We have many problems, but still, I am glad I live here!

Now, if I were offered the chance to board a spaceship to another planet, I'd go in a New York minute!

P. S. I do think you Brits have the best sense of humor I have ever encountered! I love BBCAmerica. :D

Faulkner, I'd love for my gov't to pull all our soldiers based in foreign countries. I just believe it would be a grave mistake. Logic dictates that if you are not happy where you live, move.

Planetwatcher
2003-Sep-28, 12:40 AM
I am in total agreement with Tinaa, although I have not traveled as extensivlely.
I did serve in the National Guard, and was more then willing to go over seas, serve and die if needed.
While those of you in other parts of the world may call it foolishness, we in the United States call it being patriotic to our home country. :)
Here g-man wants to ***** about the draft, but we don't have it at this time and at least he can ***** about it.
In many parts of the world, young men are required to serve at least a year in military service, and they can't even ***** about it. :(

The United States form of government is not perfect, and our elected officials will be among the fist to admitt so.
And there is a very big difference between protecting ourselves from the threat of terrorissism,
and conquaring the 3rd most oil rich country so that our rich from oil government leaders can gain more control over the oil business. And it&#39;s looking more like that all the time with no weapons of mass destruction found even after months of searching for what we was assured was there. <_<

Only one thing could possibly be worse. Which is almost unthinkable. And that is if it came out that 9-11 was either set up by, or deliberatly ignorred by our elected officials in order to regulate public opinion.
Boy, if that occurred, you will see absolutly nobody get re-elected next year, even if their opponent was the Devil in person. :angry:

I don&#39;t aggree with a great deal my government does, but just being able to state my disaggreement says
a lot for my country. Unlike some of the others which are also supposed to be free, but yet outspoken opponants of their governments often mysteriously dissappear.

We need to pray for our government officials, if we have the religious beliefs to do so.
And even if we don&#39;t we should still back them up until we elect new government officials.

Which I pray and hope will be next year, after we excersise our greatest right. The VOTE&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink:

kashi
2003-Sep-28, 04:09 AM
It&#39;s not patriotism, it&#39;s Americacentrism. "BBCAmerica" speaks for itself. Americans love to stamp their name on everything. The American media might as well by called McNews.

Tina said
I have yet to see a better place to be&#33;

I wouldn&#39;t move to America if you paid me. Melbourne has been voted the world&#39;s most livable city by several recent international surveys, and quite frankly I like it here.

Tina if you live in such a wonderful democratic country, why did the republicans systematically deregister black voters in the state of Florida prior to last presidential election? If you&#39;re the world&#39;s police force, did the world get to vote to have such a police force? Doesn&#39;t sound very democratic to me.


...and doesn&#39;t it seem a little odd that the US destroy all of Iraq&#39;s infrastructure, then offer to rebuild it in exchange for oil?

Tina said
the military needs a raise
With the cost of a single B52 bomber equal to ten times Afghanistan&#39;s annual budget, I&#39;ll let this statement speak for itself.


Yet we face nations that are severe violaters of human rights on the human rights committee chairs. Is the deaths of 500000 Iraqi children between 1991-2001 as a result of not being able to import chimotherapy drugs (used to treat cancers casued by a 1000 fold background radiation increase as a result of the Americans using depleted Uranium in tank shells) not violating human rights?

Obviously the free world was grateful for what the United States did in world war two, but the fundemental difference between then and now, is that Iraq was NOT a threat to anyone. In WW2, America acted in self defence. Today, America attacks first. The "sleeping giant" wasn&#39;t once again woken from its slumber, it was up all night waiting to pounce.

I love my country (Australia) too, but I&#39;m aware that we&#39;re one of the only nations in the world to lock up asylum seekers in the the middle of the desert for 4-5 years why they&#39;re being "processed". Most asylum seekers who&#39;ve fled places like Afghanistan have wished to return after their treatment in Australia, and many if sought an end to their own lives.

Don&#39;t get me wrong I&#39;ve met some of the nicest people I know from America, and I love jazz music (which originated there). But killing innocent people isn&#39;t cool&#33;

g-man
2003-Sep-28, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by Planetwatcher@Sep 28 2003, 12:40 AM

Here g-man wants to ***** about the draft, but we don&#39;t have it at this time
Read the post, dimwit, I did not ***** about the draft, I just presented a hypothetical question. For your information, I am a decorated Viet-Nam Vet just trying to get a take on what this generation&#39;s views are on the subject.

g-man

Tinaa
2003-Sep-28, 07:51 PM
What was it that Tony Blair said? To paraphrase, he said something like, the US must be great place, else why are so many people trying to get in there? I&#39;m sure that many of the post-industrial nations are very similar.

I&#39;m sick of the whining about Iraq. You know who&#39;s going to foot the bill for rebuilding it...the American taxpayer, that&#39;s who. Just like we rebuilt Japan and Germany after WWII. Wasn&#39;t enough that Saddam had let all the infrastructure of the country erode, he enjoyed killing his own people when they dared to speak out.

Don&#39;t let the oil issue fool you. The US has so much held in reserves we can last a long time with out the Middle East oil. Venezuela and Russia also have lots of oil. The American Dollar does seem to be welcome everywhere.

Yes, attacking Japan was self-defense, but I guess we should have let Hitler take over all of Europe and Russia. He wasn&#39;t after the US at the time. BUT, if he would have taken Europe, then we would have had a problem. We had to take out Hilter before he set his sights on the US. Just like we did Saddam.

It would be nice if humans would treat each other humanely. It is obvious that few of us will ever agree about politics. Aren&#39;t we glad that we have the right to disagree without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night and poor family finding our bones years later in an unmarked mass burial grave?

Faulkner
2003-Sep-28, 10:24 PM
Hey, I&#39;ve got some good American buddies too&#33; But I just can&#39;t help thinking that a country that can come up with a show such as "Oprah" has something seriously wrong with it&#33;? <_<

Tinaa
2003-Sep-28, 10:27 PM
Gee, I don&#39;t know. Seems to me that shows that anyone can do anything in the USA. No matter what race or gender or even intelligence&#33;

Faulkner
2003-Sep-28, 10:31 PM
Hell, I can&#39;t talk, here in Oz we got bloody Steve Irwin CROCODILE HUNTER&#33; What a strange man.

Tinaa
2003-Sep-28, 10:36 PM
In fact, if you think some of our shows are a joke, get a load of some of our politicians. And I&#39;m not even talking about Pres. Bush. Even Oprah is preferable to most of the trash seen on the big or little screen. Isn&#39;t it a little frightening to even think that some ET may be monitoring our broadcasts? Geesh, they&#39;d probably high-tail the other way considering the violence portrayed in nearly every media. We would be much too vicious to join any peaceful galactic organization.

Faulkner
2003-Sep-28, 10:42 PM
Yeah? Well we got a 3-foot-high monkey as a Prime Minister&#33;

Tinaa
2003-Sep-28, 10:47 PM
Kashi has spoken of his love for John Howard. Is this the monkey to whom you are refering? I&#39;m not going to get into the mine is worse or better than yours because it seems that most democratic type societies are also free to elect idiots as representatives&#33;

Planetwatcher
2003-Sep-29, 01:30 AM
Okay, I went back and reread g-mans first posting more carefully. :ph34r:
When placed in context with the title of the discussion string, of which the second part said, "what will I do if they draft me?" appears to imply the author (g-man)was a young man afraid to be drafted, when in reality, g-man served his country. Now while wheather he was drafted or volunteered is surely important to him, the fact remains, he did serve, so he need not worry about the draft.

I can see g-man feels strongly on the issue, but let&#39;s at least not do any name calling. The discussion is lively enough without resorting to such measures.

But I still believe that worry about a draft is premature. :unsure:
I won&#39;t discount the possibliity that I&#39;m wrong, because that is possible.
But on the other hand I don&#39;t believe presure from families of draftees, (assuming a draft does occur) is going to bring the solders home any more then it did during the Vietnam war. :(

But one thing that will be different is that no matter how it goes, the new war vets will not be booed and misstreated like the Vietnam vets were, and perhaps that is not fair to the Vietnam vets because they didn&#39;t ask to get dropped into an unpopular war. :( It&#39;s just that is what it took for the American population to realize that the vets didn&#39;t start the war, and can not be blamed because they served their country in a place our country had no right to send them. :blink:

Now we are repeating history, except when our vets come home, they will be reconized for the hero&#39;s they are, just as the Vietnam vets should have been but were not.
The ones who deserved to be booed are those who sent them. :o
Well, I hope all the vets, and any other American who disapproved of the Gulf war does their booing in the voting booth on Tuesday Nov. 2 2004. ;)

Planetwatcher
2003-Sep-29, 01:49 AM
Now, let&#39;s clear up another matter.
The United States of America is NOT a democracy. It is a republic. :o
Which is not the same as the Republican party. :huh: Anyone who doubts that, just recite the Pledge of Allegence. &#39;and to the Republic, for which it stands.&#39;

We do not have a Prime Minister, or Parlament. Although our President has many simular roles to that of a Prime Minister. And our Congress and Senate appears simular to a Parlament, but they are not.

Our President has a lot more atthority to act then a Democratic Prime Minister, and
our Congress, and Senate is less powerful then a Democratic Parlament.
This not a put down, but a matter of what it is.
However they ***** and bellyach just as much so they seem the same. :D

As for the military needing a raise, athough I don&#39;t claim to speak for Tinaa, I believe I understand her meaning because it&#39;s how I feel...
It&#39;s not the military policies, and equipment which needs the raise (more money)
but the brave men and women who serve in the military.

Why a Captain makes less money annuually then a rookie police officer in many large cities. A Command Sergent Major makes about the same money as a metro area senor emergency radio dispatcher.

Both civilian jobs are simular to military jobs held by a Private/Seaman/Airman 1st Class, or a 2nd Lt. But the civilain position pay much better then their military counterparts. Not much thankyou IMH for serving and risking one&#39;s life for God and Country.


But killing innocent people isn&#39;t cool&#33;
I aggree, however Saddam Hussan isn&#39;t innocent. Neither is Al Ciada or Osomma Binladden. But thousands of people in the New York WTC were innocent. They had nothing to do with the policies and practices of our government officials other then their vote, and even at that I&#39;m sure many of them voted for the opponants of those who got in and are regulating policy.

But who suffered? Not the one&#39;s who pissed off those in the middle east, but they will eventually be taken care of by We the People.
For what it&#39;s worth we may be a stupid slow people, but we are a strong and sure people. And rest assured that no one can open a bigger can of Whup-*** then the PEOPLE of the U.S.A.

Now some of what I&#39;m saying sounds self-counterdictory, and perhaps it is, but that is one of my freedoms. What are yours?

kashi
2003-Sep-29, 08:35 AM
Tina for crying out loud&#33; You make the US sound like the only Democratic country in the world. There are many&#33; In fact considering that Bush has only given 9 press conferences since he was elected, I think that democracy has indeed been compromised in recent years.

My father&#39;s visiting Los Angeles at the end of the week, and the travel agent had to circle a whole lot of suburbs that weren&#39;t safe to visit. Doesn&#39;t sound like the sort of place where I&#39;d want to live&#33; My city is only slightly smaller than LA, and I&#39;d feel safe in any suburb.

Kashi

Tinaa
2003-Sep-29, 10:09 PM
I live in here in Texas and wouldn&#39;t go to LA unless I had to go. Been there, done that, learned my lesson. I am not a big city person, although San Antonio is a good little city and I love New Orleans. Might move there if I could.
And Kashi, you&#39;d love New Orleans&#33;&#33; ;) Though there are neighborhoods there that may be a little rough too.

I know there are lots of democracies or representative republics around. Why is it not okay for Iraq to have one too? Since there are no "true democracies," I still feel my representatives represent me in gov&#39;t. Yes, the pres. has some power, but only if Congress gives it to him. Which reminds me....

If con- is the opposite of pro-

Does that mean progress is the opposite of Congress?

Just a little humor. :D

Les
2003-Sep-30, 07:47 AM
Certainly a vigourous thread. Certainly totally off the topic.

Kashi, Tinaa, you seem to be good sparing partners. You guys should meet. Kashi, get your dad to contact Tinaa.

As a one time editor of a local newspaper, I want to thank most forum participants for their observance of English syntax and spelling. Oh, and for playing nice most of the time.

Now, if I could just get that guy to use "than" instead of "then"... sigh&#33;

kashi
2003-Oct-04, 01:40 AM
3 foot high monkey is quite an accurate description.

President Bush is bad, but Tinaa, your congress joke was terrible&#33; :D

Kashi