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Forealfc
2003-Oct-10, 05:26 PM
My question is,, I have heard the Universe might be definte instead of indifinite. Example like a soccer ball shape. If this is the case, what is beyond that? There has to be something beyond the universe itself? Any idea?

Haglund
2003-Oct-10, 05:42 PM
Maybe there are an infinite number of other universa together with ours, in a multiverse. Or, maybe this universe is an especially cooled down and "condensed" area in some infinite area. Maybe our universe is a fourdimensional soccerball in a fivedimensional space. But, then again, our universe may be all that exist, all that ever was or ever will be. In other words, I'm not sure if anyone really knows.

Forealfc
2003-Oct-10, 06:17 PM
Thanks Parker.

Planetwatcher
2003-Oct-11, 04:16 PM
what is beyond that? There has to be something beyond the universe itself? Any idea?

Water; lots of it, as in an endless abyss. :o

SOMSOC
2003-Oct-12, 03:00 PM
A brick wall!!

My opinion and very humble at that, is our universe is not alone, a few hundred years ago we did not even know the earth was round, our minds right now cannot fathom the shape or size or how many dimensions the universes may have.

alissa
2003-Nov-03, 08:47 PM
ok.. now.. picture space. WHATS UNDER SPACE? i cant explain it lol :huh:

Menikmati
2003-Nov-03, 09:12 PM
I believe that the universe is finite in size and if you were to set off in a space ship you would eventually come back to where you started. I don't know if I belive it or not but the idea of other universes then this one has crossed my mind more then once and its a hard idea to grasp. But lets just say this is the only universe, then there would be nothing beyond it. It's hard to say whats in the dark tho because you can not see. I am also sure there are thousands of opinons on what could be byond the universe and non can really said to be wrong, I would just use your imagination and try to come up with you own idea on whats beyond it, for its as acurate as the next person ;)

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-05, 03:10 AM
Menikmati has a good point in that we should be using our imaginations more...

When I was about 7 my brother told me that the universe was inifinite, that it went on and on forever - a bit like my posts ;)

I used to lie awake trying to think about what would happen if there was no universe and it is - quite literally - mind boggling. You have to start small... you can imagine that if there was no Earth, then we'd simply be somewhere else in the universe. It's kind of a default reaction from your brain... it can't accept that there is no Earth, that what you see and hear around you doesn't exist, so it tells you that instead of the Earth, we'd simply be on another planet.

But what if there weren't any other planets?

After a little while of staring at the ceiling, it *is* possible to grasp the concept of non-existence LOL (I'm beginning to think I should study Zen LOL)

I never considered what was *outside* the universe though... or maybe my brain was just too tired...

kashi
2003-Nov-05, 06:45 AM
Menikmati: "I believe that the universe is finite in size and if you were to set off in a space ship you would eventually come back to where you started."

According to relativity, space-time is four dimensional. If the universe was a finite "sphere" shape, then it would be in four dimensions, so travelling in a direction in 3 dimensions would not lead you back where you started. It's a difficult concept to get your head around.

Matthew
2003-Nov-05, 10:24 AM
Absolutly totally nothing. It could be, difficult to get your head around, but once you get onto the 'universe' scale everything takes a lot of work to get your head around. ;)

But then we could have an infinite space, or maybe there is nothing outside the universe, even though we are in a finite universe. Or maybe we are just in a black hole in another universe.


According to relativity, space-time is four dimensional. If the universe was a finite "sphere" shape, then it would be in four dimensions, so travelling in a direction in 3 dimensions would not lead you back where you started. It's a difficult concept to get your head around. :huh:

You could get back to the same place in space, but not in time. Time would have moved on, so yes you are right (technically). :)

scott712
2003-Nov-07, 03:16 AM
Someday we may encounter what appears to be a solid wall in Space. Eventually we might conclude that this was made of absolutely nothing. There would not only be nothing on the other side of the apparent wall, but the wall would simply mark the end of Space itself. The wall would be nothing more and nothing less than simply the absence of any place further to go. It is merely an unfounded mental habit to assume that there is always another side to every wall. This habit is based on our limited experience and may have little basis in reality.

tac
2003-Nov-07, 05:29 PM
What the universe is is everything we see and dont see. What we s3ee and know is but a small percentage of everything. We are incapable of even concieving what the universe consists of precisly because we are unable to comprehend what we are looking at as a whole object. In short the "UNIVERSE" as we know it is only a piece of some object that is unseeable from this prospective.

rahuldandekar
2003-Nov-08, 06:21 AM
The universe is made up of space and time. They are a part of the universe. Beyond the universe, space-time ends. There is no space, no time. So, if we wanted to go outside the universe, we wouldn't be able to, as there is nothing outside it. The u8niverse is everything there is.

kashi
2003-Nov-08, 06:37 AM
rahuldandekar this leaves the question (which you posted in another topic in the last 15 minutes), of why/how the universe came into existence in the first place. If there are no outside influences, doesn't it seem a little...well...strange!

Matthew
2003-Nov-08, 07:10 AM
What if outside the universe it were not a nothingness as some think. Maybe it it made up of only energy, or only time. What would it be like?

Haglund
2003-Nov-08, 10:19 AM
Is it possible to imagine a universe with no origin, yet a finite age?

netmare
2003-Nov-26, 11:31 PM
;) Heaven?

Ę

TwAgIssmuDe
2003-Nov-28, 10:59 AM
Maybe there are baby universes beyond the universe, each time there is a supernova, a black hole is born and matter is sucked into it. What if on the other side of the black hole another mini universe is expanding just like ours did 12-15 billion years ago.
Maybe its true but who knows, its just another theori :D

tycho1981
2003-Nov-29, 07:12 PM
After reading all replys I was thinking and agree that beyond the universe is NOTHING, no time, no space, just nothing! but I feel strange about that all of universe! Then i've thinked some new questions;

Beyond the universe is nothing, no time no light etcetera right?,
Also we have a Black holes in our universe. they've theory that a black hole "suck" all materials, light, time everything! So what's beyond the black holes?
I think that the answer is probaly same as the question of what's beyond the universe!
if beyond the universe've no time, no space etcetera then this doesn't work as a black hole?So maybe the universe is not expanding to be bigger as a balloon but to be smaller as a shrinking balloon?

There's a theory of Big bangs too; it started as very little like a pencilpoint, after billions years it's now billionXbillionXbillion lightyears big what we thanks that we are lifing.
So what was around it a beginning of Big bang as a pencilpoint?, This question is same as the question of what's beyond the universe too I think.
Maybe there were more pencilpoints/big bangs too?, Then our BIG universe will be very small for the human thinking! It's just like one football between millions footballs lol.

so what is beyond beyond beyond all, I've a lot questions in my head so my head goes as to blow up :D

maybe this all is not true, I'm not so cleve as you all but the science never is certain.
Dump people say they does know everything, but manner people don't.

Maybe is the theory's of a start of our Universe not true.

Maybe beyond the universe is just still universe. Nothing is beyond!


Find a TRUE answer what is beyond universe will be a biggest invention of the mankind and all intelligent lifes!It's like finding a answer of god that gave our the life.

corkft
2003-Dec-03, 03:16 AM
Actually, our universe , is one of those glass balls sitting on a shelf. When all the stars settle to the bottom, someone comes along and gives it a good shake. ;)

Littlemews
2003-Dec-03, 03:21 AM
Our universe is a "Cell", and those galaxies are the tiny little thing that live inside cell....

TiMiX
2003-Dec-06, 11:36 PM
This is a question that i have always had in my head. There has to be something beoned space i feel. The universe follows the same rales as we do everyday and why wouldn't it?

How i see it is, your looking at a pc screen, that screen is in a room, that room is in a building, the building is on the planit, the planit is in the solur system, the solur sytem is in the galaxy and the galaxy is in the universe and so on :D :lol:

So why would it stop there?? there must be something beond what we know at this point, we just don't know how to see it yet.

Just hope we don't end up blowing our selfs up before we find out! :blink:

The thing that i can't start to get my head round is, i'm sure there is somthing beoned the universe, and there is something beoned that and so on, layer after layer like the pc screen in the room. But for that layer after layer to happen where is it all???

Think of it like an onion (bear with me :D ) you and the pc screen is at the center of the onion and the layers over it are the planit and the universe and so on....... where is the onion to begin with? where is it sitting so it can excist?

Its completely mind blowing trying to make sence of where and why we are.... i suppose thats why we have jobs, watch tv and play video games so don't have too :D fine with me :)

Forealfc
2003-Dec-10, 05:27 PM
Very Good questions TiMiX ... and very good thinking.....

You are so right.. If you start with something small like a pc screen.. then inside a building... then the planet,, and so on.... I feel it still goes on and on.... Our minds are not that intellegent yet to understand or probably to even imagine whats out there. This is pretty sad. We are only on this planet for a short time, and I feel so bad that we are not going to know the answer to this question. Unless we find another Albert Einstein... hee hee.... I have to say, Im certainly excited to see what Earth is going to be like in 20 years from now... Im only 26 and still have some life to live...... We are soon going to be able to explore Mars and know what it has to offer us.. Then we move on to another planet and so on... But all this takes time. It just seems that Nasa would be capable of sending an spaceship into space if they really wanted to with humas aboard and go out and explore... why not??? Columbus took that chance!!!!

Littlemews
2003-Dec-10, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by TiMiX@Dec 6 2003, 11:36 PM
This is a question that i have always had in my head. There has to be something beoned space i feel. The universe follows the same rales as we do everyday and why wouldn't it?

How i see it is, your looking at a pc screen, that screen is in a room, that room is in a building, the building is on the planit, the planit is in the solur system, the solur sytem is in the galaxy and the galaxy is in the universe and so on :D :lol:

So why would it stop there?? there must be something beond what we know at this point, we just don't know how to see it yet.

Just hope we don't end up blowing our selfs up before we find out! :blink:

The thing that i can't start to get my head round is, i'm sure there is somthing beoned the universe, and there is something beoned that and so on, layer after layer like the pc screen in the room. But for that layer after layer to happen where is it all???

Think of it like an onion (bear with me :D ) you and the pc screen is at the center of the onion and the layers over it are the planit and the universe and so on....... where is the onion to begin with? where is it sitting so it can excist?

Its completely mind blowing trying to make sence of where and why we are.... i suppose thats why we have jobs, watch tv and play video games so don't have too :D fine with me :)
There are 4 forces in the universe : Gravity, Electromagnetism, weak force, and strong force

Start with the big bang...our universe is a tiny little dot, hot, dense...etc. then sunnenly 2 force attracted each other and create inflation(Big Exposion), then released enough energy to expand the universe 10 to the 30 times in less than 10 to the -36 sec...and after long long time ago, the universe become so huge, which was about 13.7 billion yrs from now (13.7 billion is the age of our universe), so thats why the Universe is expanding, because the 2 force still exist in the universe...and soon the universe will collapse back together, then repeat the step again...

Planetwatcher
2003-Dec-11, 07:45 PM
I still say it is an abyss of water, which is itself infinite.

Chook
2003-Dec-14, 07:17 PM
TiMix - remember the ditty "Dogs have big fleas on their back to bight 'em. Big fleas have smaller fleas - and so on - infinitum." Beautiful intellectual exercise, but quite futile in the end. Where's the better mousetrap? :rolleyes:

Lenny
2003-Dec-17, 11:39 PM
here's an interesting point, say there is nothing beyond the universe, well in a sense nothing is something because nothing consumes a certain amount of space, so in reality there can't be something there, and there also can't be nothing at the same time

rahuldandekar
2003-Dec-18, 08:41 AM
You have to understand this 'nothing'. It's really what it says - nothing. No space ,no time. Really, nothing at all. :wacko: ^_^

TiMiX
2003-Dec-21, 11:26 PM
Do we have nothing on earth?? no, Have we ever found nothing? no, have we ever seen nothing?......... no (o: Nothing dosn't exist.

Think of this.... if there realy is nothing all around us and the onion we are sitting in the middle has nothing all around it.... how can we be here?? we wouldn't... we would be nothing also. We can't "excist" in the middle of nothing can we.

Ok, peaple say the universe is growing, so it must be taking space from something somewhere. It wonldn't be taking it from nothing would it?

You can't "take" nothing you have to take something :)

alex E. Campain
2003-Dec-22, 03:37 AM
At the end of the universe gases and atom are being created or pushed forwarded by dark energy a cousin of "gravity" these gases and atoms are accelerating or being pulled at light speed because of dark energy created by the big bang that happen billions of years back, racing at light speed and creating space and time and matter and physics as we know it.

Beyond the acceleration or edge lies a void of empty space without time,space and matter a different type of "physics law" exist and governs inside this void or different demension, this demension is being taken over by what we call our universe the void itself is also expanding as our universe does sense time does not exist their past present and future co exist creating the recreation of a parallel universe and void over and over again " the fluctuating void."

Our universe will eventually crash with the parallel universe that is also expanding within the void creating a retraction and big bang effect because of our matter from this universe and antimatter from that parallel universe. When both universe crash the parallel universe our universe will eventually retract to the size of a marble this these marbles size universes will be so condense or dense they will peirce through the void that has been left and create a black hole at both side of the void these holes will connect the two demensions together which will cause anti matter and matter to create the big bang over and over again in both demensions. An endless cycle that has been going on eternity

damienpaul
2003-Dec-22, 05:00 AM
the universe is a decorative cat collar..... ;)

Littlemews
2003-Dec-22, 05:32 AM
What's beyond the universe? ;)
;) hmm, Hell maybe....no air, no atmosphere...

damienpaul
2003-Dec-22, 05:36 AM
yes hell, the land of disney.... :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

Littlemews
2003-Dec-22, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by damienpaul@Dec 22 2003, 05:36 AM
yes hell, the land of disney.... :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
More like a Six Flag :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

damienpaul
2003-Dec-22, 05:48 AM
please explain.....lol :lol:

TiMiX
2003-Dec-29, 12:44 AM
Our universe will eventually crash with the parallel universe that is also expanding within the void creating a retraction and big bang effect because of our matter from this universe and antimatter from that parallel universe. When both universe crash the parallel universe our universe will eventually retract to the size of a marble this these marbles size universes will be so condense or dense they will peirce through the void that has been left and create a black hole at both side of the void these holes will connect the two demensions together which will cause anti matter and matter to create the big bang over and over again in both demensions. An endless cycle that has been going on eternity


So wheres all this going on then you think?

Where ever it is, it must be a very stable place if it hasn't interrupted this process for an eternity, don't you think. :blink:

Matthew
2003-Dec-30, 04:50 AM
Maybe everything, and nothing at the same time.

kashi
2003-Dec-30, 05:31 AM
I think the very concepts of "everything" and "nothing" are derived from out experiences on Earth. Perhaps these words do not accurately paint a picture of the universe and beyond.

Guest_Morpheus
2004-Jan-10, 08:58 AM
Death lies beyond our universe.
Reaching the end of the universe and dying are one and the same thing.
For it is only after death that we are fit to understand the universe; in death we will dream of more, until we reach beyond death, in turn, reaching beyond the beyond.

In time we will come to understand all things.

K
2004-Jan-12, 10:25 PM
I was just going to say that about death!!! No time, no space, no light, could also be the beginning of life.

After reading all of your replies about this topic, I feel like the universe was invented just to mess with people's minds :lol: The whole thing is a joke but I think it's great, it makes us think and use our imaginations, which is much better than what we humans usually do. I think the universe and all things space and time related are like music, movies, dancing and art - endless :)

I also have a theory about this whole universe thing, but I think I'll have to draw it out, because it's kind of confusing :D

Let me see if I can post a picture here soon.



PS: My boyfriend and I were talking about this earlier that's how I got on this message board, and I've been telling him some replies from here. And he made a joke. I said, "what if God was here before the big bang and in fact he really existed and we were just an experiment?" (that's not my real theory by the way). And my boyfriend said, "what if God farted and then the universe happened?". I started cracking up. Anyway :D

exAstro
2004-Jan-14, 01:54 AM
I'd like to reply to the initial question. I believe that if we can think of a question then there must be an answer. Not quite the anthropic theory, but perhaps similar. It's like a student asking "what existed before the Big Bang" and some idiot teacher answering that the Big Bang was the beginning of all space and time and therefore the question has no meaning. By merely asking the question we give reality to the the possible answer.

Regards,
MH

Terrajohnson
2004-Jan-14, 07:25 PM
CURRENT THINKING IDICATES THAT THE UNIVERSE IS MADE UP OF 11 DIMENSIONS. IN ORDER TO MENTALLY GRASP THIS WE FIRST HAVE TO STOP THINKING THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT. ONCE WE CAN DO THAT WE CAN PERCEIVE THE BIGGER PICTURE.

THERE APPEARS LOTS TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BIG SYSTEM IS PUT TOGETHER. HOPEFULLY THE NEW CYCLOTRON WILL UNVEIL MANY MORE MYSTERIES AND HELP US SEE THE WOOD FOR THE TREES
TED

Guest_Faulkner
2004-Jan-16, 07:04 PM
The universe is made up of space and time. They are a part of the universe. Beyond the universe, space-time ends. There is no space, no time. So, if we wanted to go outside the universe, we wouldn't be able to, as there is nothing outside it. The universe is everything there is.

OK, so how does the Universe itself come to exist amidst "nothing"??? Your logic is running around in circles...ie "We can't go outside the Universe because there's nothing there"...and yet the Universe itself exists within this "outside"!!!

Like most textbook replies, it just raises more & more questions.

Tinaa
2004-Jan-16, 07:22 PM
Terrajohnson, please do not use all caps in your posts. There is no reason to yell!

K
2004-Jan-16, 08:41 PM
Like most textbook replies, it just raises more & more questions.



"“The size of earth is the size of our intellect, the vasness of space is the void in our brain”
-Me :)

alpha
2004-Jan-19, 08:03 PM
At the edge of the Universe.....an event horizon (?) where 4 dimensional space-time ends (stand still??)

K
2004-Jan-24, 01:09 AM
[font=Optima]JUPITER'S MOON
-Spacehog (Royston and Antony Langdon)



I have removed the lyrics. You may not post copywrited material. See the Rules here. (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1134)




“The size of earth is the size of our intellect, the vastness of space is the void in our brain” -Me*

Evil Steve
2004-Jan-24, 09:48 AM
Wow. Lots of interesting and fun theorys there's not realy much I can add but I'll better have a go ;) .

Thanks for asking Terrajohnson to turn it down Tinaa, my eyes are still ringing.

Alot of the problem with conceptualizing the ends of the universe is, as many people have suggested, the ability of the human mind to wrap itself around such large ideas. I also believe (play on whats coming up) that a big problem is belief. We all imagine things as we beleive they should be until evidence prooves us wrong. Some people require simple evidence to change their perceptions, others need to be sailed to the edge of the world and pushed off.

The simple fact is everyone has beliefs and each is coloured by their own experences and ideals on how things should work. I believe that there is an end to the Universe and outside it is nothing, the no time thing again.


OK, so how does the Universe itself come to exist amidst "nothing"??? Your logic is running around in circles...ie "We can't go outside the Universe because there's nothing there"...and yet the Universe itself exists within this "outside"!!!

Coming to exist is another subject, and inside is a misnomer there is no outside. The Universe as its name suggests is everything it's not bounded because there is nothing to go round it.

Evil (On going outside the Universe my own little ideas are in the "how big is the Universe?" thread. No one wants to tell me if thats a good idea or not :(

Oh and favorite non serious "Whats beyond?"

Discworlds incarnation of death had a pretty good idea. Beyond the universe is infinity and it's blue, eggshell blue.

tycho1981
2004-Jan-24, 11:42 AM
what will happen with yourself if you go to beyond the universe with your spaceship?

Guest_Faulkner
2004-Jan-26, 12:45 AM
I just can't see how it's possible for the Universe to exist within "nothing". There MUST be an infinite BEYOND! Call it heaven, call it hell, call it whatever you want, but it's there, waiting to swallow each & every one of us, whether you're saint or sinner. Go take your chill-pill!! ha...

Evil Steve
2004-Jan-27, 05:59 AM
from size of the Universe


My speculation would be that if you could reach the boundary and zipped across it... you (would) be taking you're time and space with you, thereby extending or stretching the universe...

Easyer to exist unbounded or surounded by infinity?

We could say we are surounded by infinite nothingness.

Evil

Tiny
2004-Jan-27, 06:09 AM
Or we are tiny part of the Darkness....

Despair
2004-Jan-29, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Guest_Faulkner@Jan 26 2004, 12:45 AM
I just can't see how it's possible for the Universe to exist within "nothing".
The universe does not exist "within" anything. It is not just that there is a load of nothingness outside of the universe, but that the universe is existance, is space and time. In order for there to be lots of "nothing" outside of it, there would have to be space surrounding the universe - which is impossibe, as then it would then be part of the universe. Things inside the universe are things that are, talk of something outside of it are like saying, "That ball inside the box is outside of it."

Along similar lines, I feel that it is equally strange talking of infinite universes and the like. In those cases you are using two distinct and different meanings for the word. One of which is everything that we can sense (so there could be many of those) and one is existance, of which there cannot be seperate.

Faulkner
2004-Jan-30, 01:40 AM
I'm not convinced...(prob'ly never will be! ;) )

Imagine you're in a spacesuit, just floating, not in space, but in nothing. YOU are all that exists. YOU are the Universe - the end-all & be-all of existence. (This is just as plausible as saying the Universe exists in nothing!).

My question is, what do you see out your visor? Blackness? What?

Can you lift your arm and see it?

Also, if the Universe is "finite", and yet "all there is"...how come there are so many infinities within it? - eg black holes/singularities, the value of "pi", etc...

I can only make some feeble sense out of the Cosmos if I imagine it to be a "finity" expanding within an "infinity". In my mind, there must be a "Beyond"!!! - beyond time & space, sure...but not "nothing"!!!

cosmoschaos
2004-Feb-05, 11:03 PM
We human have little knowledge of the real aspect of the universe. 1000 years ago, most people did not knew the earth was a sphere. We were thinking our planet was flat, but curiously, Magellan did travel around the world, proving that we were in a sphere like universe.

Today, we like to try determine the shape of our universe geometrically. Some people think it is a big sphere, other, torus (donut shaped) etc. All those geometric shape implies that it should have a frontier for our universe, because, everyone knows a sphere is finite, and a torus is finite geometrically.

But if we consider that we live in a universe where there is 3 spatial dimensions and one dimension for time. Maybe it is not adequate to try determining the shape of our cosmos geometrically (3 spatial dimension). Our universe is maybe more than only three dimensions, perhaps 4 and it is impossible to represent a shape in 4 dimensions.

So if we live in a 4 dimensions universe, there is no possibility to represent its shape, and make prediction of what could be beyond the frontier of the universe.

SingularPoint
2004-Feb-06, 07:22 AM
What is behind the universe? this is a very interesting question. As interesting as what is behind our mind that makes it possible to ask such a question and why we ask them? one possible answer could be that based on what we have learned so far there in no reason to believe that this universe in the only universe just because we understands the size. One could wonder about what a limit really means in relation to the universe. Maybe math is a tool that can help us a little
There are infinit number between 0 and 1. But the limit is 0 and 1. We can go towards 0 by deviding 1 into 2 and then divide 1/2 by 2 and get to a new number (a place in space) but never reach the limit 0. WHY?

Josh
2004-Feb-06, 07:41 AM
Faulkner ... i've tried to tell you this before.


Imagine you're in a spacesuit, just floating, not in space, but in nothing. YOU are all that exists. YOU are the Universe - the end-all & be-all of existence.

If you are floating in space you can't say that you alone are the universe ... whatever you're floating in is the unvierse too. Everything that you are trying to say is beyond the universe is also the universe. The universe isn't in anything at all because then, by definition, what the "universe" is in is the universe too! The universe isn't like a person in shape or dimension. It is wrapped up on itself and expanding into itself.

You have to try and get your head around the idea that the big bang wasn't an explosion in space but an explosion of space!! There was nothing before and it isn't expanding into something else. If it were then that would be part of the universe too. Have that as your starting point and then try to understand. Don't continue to think of the universe expanding into something because it's simply wrong.

Guest
2004-Feb-06, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Menikmati@Nov 3 2003, 09:12 PM
I believe that the universe is finite in size and if you were to set off in a space ship you would eventually come back to where you started. I don't know if I belive it or not but the idea of other universes then this one has crossed my mind more then once and its a hard idea to grasp. But lets just say this is the only universe, then there would be nothing beyond it. It's hard to say whats in the dark tho because you can not see. I am also sure there are thousands of opinons on what could be byond the universe and non can really said to be wrong, I would just use your imagination and try to come up with you own idea on whats beyond it, for its as acurate as the next person ;)
http://ssdpol.tripod.com

Faulkner
2004-Feb-06, 01:32 PM
Josh, I hear you pal, and I've read the "explanations" over and over again in books, articles, documentaries, internet, forums... But it's all just a play on words if you ask me = ie rhetoric.


The universe isn't like a person in shape or dimension. It is wrapped up on itself and expanding into itself.

How do we possibly know this? So the universe twists back upon itself in a seamless join? This is what you (and the rest of cosmology) is saying, right? Yes?

Don't get me wrong. This seems almost "intuitive" to me, too!

But how can we possibly KNOW this as a fact? Doesn't the latest astronomical findings indicate the Universe is FLAT, ie no global curvature? - ie it is Euclidian in its geometry?

To say it is "curved back upon itself", you are also implying that time curves back upon itself, and that the history of the Universe will repeat itself infinitely.

"Expanding INTO itself"??? See, language can't even grasp it. If it's expanding INTO itself, there must be an OUTSIDE??? You can't just call it "NOTHING".

I'm not trying to suggest anything here. Just my honest inability to grasp this absurdist/disturbing nonsense which is our Universe.

What you're saying, Josh, is a very familiar line we've all read over and over again. What I'm asking for is MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE!!! Because without more info, it's pure RHETORIC. The Universe is FLAT...but it also TWISTS BACK UPON ITSELF...it is INFINITE...but FINITE...etc etc etc...

Does ANYBODY really/truly UNDERSTANDS at all what's going on??????

If it can't be explained in layman's language, then there's big problems in the "theory"....!?

Where's Paul Davies when we need him???!!! ;)

Faulkner
2004-Feb-06, 02:26 PM
(I apologise for the double-post!)...

BUT THIS IS BUGGING THE CRAP OUTA ME!!!! :P

Josh, I know/I follow/I understand what you are saying. It is the standard textbook reply to questions like mine. But you MUST admit, the "textbook" cosmologies we've ALL read do not answer these IMPORTANT questions!!!??? One must not get too cosy in one's textbooks...otherwise we'll never move forward!?

OR...maybe (?)...my whole problem is that I don't know the complex, esoteric mathematics which PROVE the textbooks right. That could be true. Won't someone please take me through the equations, step by step?? :blink:

Chook
2004-Feb-06, 07:41 PM
Good on you, Faulkner - stick with it!

(I'm a bit your way trying to understand space-time, based on common sense; but that's another topic.)

I wonder whether anybody understands the truth of what the universe is, and how it relates to the rest of reality - or whether what we read are just educated conjectures made to fit in with what is already known.

jce1975
2004-Feb-06, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Chook@Feb 6 2004, 07:41 PM
I wonder whether anybody understands the truth of what the universe is, and how it relates to the rest of reality - or whether what we read are just educated conjectures made to fit in with what is already known.
I'll be the first to say I don't understand the truth of the universe (no one does), but I will say that the enormous size and complexity of it makes the human race seem completely unimportant. We are meaningless in my opinion. We have no purpose ... other than to survive. Luckily, exploration and discovery are a part of human nature and this is extremely exciting. I am not trying to stir up controversy ... this is just my opinion based on all the information that has been learned about the universe. My only advice is to try to have as much fun as you can with your family and friends while you are alive.

Faulkner
2004-Feb-07, 05:17 AM
I do agree with you, Jce1975, but we must all remember that the very atoms that constitute us were forged in the nuclear furnaces of ancient stars. We are intimately connected with the universe - probably more-so than we can possibly imagine - and it makes me wonder if our existence is actually the Universe "waking up" and developing self-awareness!? I don't think that implies "meaninglessness"...It DOES imply that the Universe as a whole is a gigantic living entity in itself.

Whatever it's motives, it sure is one helluva WEIRD monster!!! :blink:

(Thanks for the encouragement, Chook. Sometimes people's sheer confidence in the "textbook" line makes me wonder if I'm missing an obvious point somewhere...?? I really don't think I am. I'm just questioning & trying to probe to some deeper, more meaningful understanding!??)...("Understanding" should not be the exclusive intellectual property of the "professional" scientist!!!! It's GOT to be shared to ALL!!!)...

Josh
2004-Feb-07, 07:09 AM
"Expanding INTO itself"??? See, language can't even grasp it. If it's expanding INTO itself, there must be an OUTSIDE??? You can't just call it "NOTHING".

That's just not true. If I said it was expanding outwards then fine you could say that there must then be an outside for it to expand into. Thewhole point is that there is nothing outside the universe. If there is something outside the system we perceive to be the universe then that is the universe too.


(Thanks for the encouragement, Chook. Sometimes people's sheer confidence in the "textbook" line makes me wonder if I'm missing an obvious point somewhere...?? I really don't think I am. I'm just questioning & trying to probe to some deeper, more meaningful understanding!??)...("Understanding" should not be the exclusive intellectual property of the "professional" scientist!!!! It's GOT to be shared to ALL!!!)...

I think you are missing the point. You have to use the language that people talk about this in as a guide not a black and white. The very nature of what you're asking makes it impossible to answer. You have to first start with a given. The given here (based on my last paragraph) is that everything that exists is a part of the universe. there is nothing outside of it. Now, given that you have to try to think up ways to understand that. Trying to use language as a means to understand something that has no language to describe it is ...well ... impossible. At the same time, taking that language and being a pedant with it saying "if you say this then it must mean that" when it's clear that the language isn't adequate in the first place isn't going to get you the answers. All it'll do it confuse you and everyone else more.

So yeah, if you start with the premis then, and only then, can you even begin to try and understand the stuff that humans can't understand. No one can truly fathom what this "looks like" which is exactly what we all try to do.

Faulkner
2004-Feb-07, 03:36 PM
It's just that you're making a few blatant assumptions here, Josh. ONE: You're saying the Universe is a "closed loop", ie it has no "boundary". We don't really know this. TWO: That language cannot describe the nature/geometry/etc of the Universe. We don't KNOW the nature/geometry/etc of the Universe, doesn't mean to say that if we did, we couldn't put it into words.

I'm missing your point, you're missing my point...ha...Is this what First Contact will be like? :lol:

argolus
2004-Feb-07, 05:26 PM
Gentlemen >think of our universe as part of a myriad of universes!

Hence, in the beginning there was a (.)> this dot inflated into an (o) > the (o) then inflated into two (oo)'s> touching at a concentric point to form the figure (8)> sideways (8) is the sign of infinity (oo)> now imagine a myriad of (8)'s all touching at the center of the (8)'s>hence together> forming an atom shape> and the (8)'s touching at elliptical concentric points> now before you expostulate on this principium> and if you want to inflate your mind>as to>what is >outside> our known universe> use basic quantum (energy) mechanics to demonstrate a test> putting your words on paper> utilizing only 4 items> heat, cold, and a small block of matter> all enclosed in a vacuum and you will be enlightened! ciao. Why is 8 the sign and not O?

Chook
2004-Feb-09, 02:24 AM
Sorry, Josh, but again I'm still with Faulkner on this point.

We have words now in the English language that describe some very complicated and abstract ideas. It is more difficult in the arts because "beauty" means different visions to different people. But scientific words are very much more confined to narrow and limited meanings - and if there is no word to describe something - create one.

OK - describe "infinity". But it CAN be described. Tell us more about your concept of the limitations of the English language to describe scientific principles please.

Josh
2004-Feb-09, 05:02 AM
If we can't even envision what an endless universe would look like how do you suppose we have the words to describe it?

As I've said before and I'll say again for the last time. You have to come at it from a different angle. Not the angle of "They said edge so there must be one", rather "there is no edge, how to i try and explain that?"

If you want to redefine the term universe that's an entirely different story. My understanding of the word means ... everything. If it exists then it is part of the universe. So, if you ask what's outside the universe then the answer is ... more of the the universe. Moreover, if you're asking what's outside the universe we consider to be a closed system then what you have to do is reevaluate your boudary conditions because if something is affecting the system from outside it isn't closed then, is it? If you want to say that the universe is this part that we can see - a very specific and your own personal definition - then that is entirely up to you and that, it appears, is what you're doing. Only then can you claim that there is something outside the universe because the boundary conditions you've set are arbitrary.

Faulkner
2004-Feb-09, 05:39 AM
This issue is getting more & more convoluted & confusing... We really DO need a Paul Davies here, I think!!!?

Josh, I'm not disagreeing with you AT ALL. But I'm asking you (or, rather, any cosmologist) to "elaborate, please!"... Not just handball the same ol' line we've all heard before & leave it at that. I want a more in-depth reply.

Yes, the Universe is "everything". I agree with that definition...to a point. It's just not that simple. In fact, it opens a whole can of worms.

You talk about an "endless universe" which is a "closed system". This is straight out of the Cosmology 101 textbook, which likens the cosmos to the surface of an expanding sphere (the ol' balloon analogy).

This suggests a 360-degree curvature, ie the Universe twists back upon itself seamlessly, so there is no "end" or "boundary". Perhaps more dimensions are at work here than our familiar 4D "space-time".

But how do we know that this kind of "global" curvature exists? Isn't it purely guesswork? And how can we describe this geometrically? How many dimensions is required?

The balloon analogy is full of ambiguities. Does it mean if we travel in a straight line we'll return to our starting point? And what kind of multi-dimensional geometries must be at work, if we can choose ANY direction at all, and return to our starting point??

There must be more than 4 dimensions,,,perhaps...it's too baffling for my monkey brains... :blink:

And if the Universe IS in fact a closed system like this, then in no way does it rule out an "outside" realm. All it suggests is that our Universe is bound by an event horizon, like a gigantic black hole that's twisted inside out. Our physics and astronomy cannot venture beyond this event horizon, so there is really no purpose in talking about it in any scientific sense. That's not to say there isn't something "beyond" the Universe. There can be realms (for want of a better word) OUTSIDE our black-hole Universe...which would NOT be part of our Universe at all. If our Universe is indeed "closed" ( ie a black hole) then intuitively it would seem likely there IS something beyond, something altogether different, perhaps, but very real - beyond time & space. The "Universe" does not extend beyond its event horizon! The event horizon separates it from "outside"!!!

I've read somewhere that the latest theories of a 12-side decahedronal(sp?)-shaped universe are nowhere near being substantiated...in fact it's unlikely to be the case. (Don't know the link off by heart, but I'm sure it's easy to find...?).

ALTERNATIVELY, the Universe is infinite, extending outwards in all directions. But this would contradict all the "Big Bang" theories...

SO...

In summary, I guess all I'm asking is: Just where the hell do we stand???? Do we have any idea at all? Or is it pure imaginative guesswork??? If so, then I wouldn't call it science...I'd call it art.

argolus
2004-Feb-09, 06:26 AM
the big bang really happened, e.g.

in the beginning (.) to (o) to (O) to (OO) to (OO x infinity)

try the test of proving invisibility, with basic quantum *energy mechanics
using only 4 items >heat, cold, and a small block (clue) of matter in a vacuum, figured it out yet? What do you do with the 3 items to prove invisibilty.......think............ciao

argolus
2004-Feb-09, 06:28 AM
hey josh........give it a try........ciao

jce1975
2004-Feb-09, 04:51 PM
There is so much that "we" don't know and understand. It is obvious that all of these theories on how the universe was formed, where it is headed, how big it is and if and what lies outside the boundary of it, are based upon the research of incredibly intelligent people. However, no matter how smart these scientists and researchers are, they don't have even close to all the facts. My point being that almost anything is possible. Luckily, we are getting a better understanding of the universe and in our lifetime, many of the questions we have could be answered ... however, this will most definitely lead to even more questions! :)

Tiny
2004-Feb-09, 06:15 PM
U know I really love this quote :

Asking " What lies beyond the Universe?" is as meaningless as asking " where on the Earth is north of the North Pole?"

argolus
2004-Feb-10, 01:37 AM
TINY......YOU ARE CORRECT!
WHICH WAY IS UP WHEN YOU ARE IN OUTER SPACE?
CAIO......ARGOLUS

BUT TINY.......THERE IS A QUANTUM *ENERGY TEST THAT YOU CAN PERFORM.........USING ONLY 4 ITEMS.......HEAT, COLD, A CUBE OF MATTER AND A VACUUM AND YOU CAN PROVE OR KNOW WHAT IS OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE........THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX TINY, YOU ARE GIFTED.........

SIMPLE DEMO: . . .

. . .

. . .

Tiny...connect the dot to form a square with only 4 lines without lifting your imagingery pencil off the paper............ciao only 4 lines to connect all of the dots...

argolus
2004-Feb-10, 01:39 AM
sorry Tiny.......the dots did not come out correctly on the reply lets try again

. . .

. . .

. . .

argolus
2004-Feb-10, 01:40 AM
still not right, I will try one more time.....

. . .


. . .


. . .

argolus
2004-Feb-10, 01:41 AM
sorry, email system does not compute properly for the test

Faulkner
2004-Feb-10, 02:32 AM
Asking " What lies beyond the Universe?" is as meaningless as asking " where on the Earth is north of the North Pole?"

True, but you can always travel UP!? (- ie into higher dimensions).

Argolus, how about just explaining your "quantum energy test" for us?

Faulkner
2004-Feb-10, 08:55 PM
Hmm, another dead thread? C'mon guys, let's work it all out for those NASA geeks!

Outlook
2004-Feb-11, 09:41 PM
If there is an end to the universe (ie: wall) and there is nothing beyond that, what is nothing? Is it something?

GOURDHEAD
2004-Feb-12, 09:31 PM
Perhaps a better way to state it is that there is no beyond where the universe is concerned.



Let's take 13.7 billion light years as the size of the currently (speed of light limited) observable universe from best guessing at the value of the Hubble constant. This is largely speculation not a measurement. An observer on an object that far away, by looking in the direction opposite from the direction to us should be able to see an object 13.7 billion lightyears in that direction as will an observer on that object be able to see an object 13.7 billion lightyears still further on in the established direction of looking, etc.,. I'm not sure how this ever ends which means that the volume of the universe increases without limit unless something about the inflation and normal expansion introduces a limiting process; even if so how do we bring this sizing algorithm to a close?

Note that "observable" begins to take on ambiguity. If there are observers all along the way, this universe without size limit is "observable" (the abscence of an observer doesn't trump observable anyway) which is not what we normally mean by this term. We can't use "observed" which is technology limited and suggests an entirely different context. The term "locally observable" comes to mind for what we have been meaning up to now.

Gregory Roberts
2004-Feb-14, 10:12 PM
The Universe is not infinite - Mind is. Mind is above and beyond the Universe. Before the Universe exited, Mind was there to form it. The Universe is a product of the Infinite Mind. Only the Mind is Infinite. Our mind was once part of The Infinite Mind but due to some mulfuction in the Creation of Everything it is our duty to Create Order for ourselves out of the Chaos. The Universe is in total chaos and cannot change itself - only we can change our minds to benefit us in this Chaos called Existence.

Cathy
2004-Feb-14, 11:09 PM
I like to think of the Universe as a small ball in the palm of God's hand. Kindof like at the end of the movie 'Men in Black', when the alien children are playing 'marbles' with different 'universes'. :lol:

MissV
2004-Feb-23, 12:55 AM
The universe isn't a finite object, because it is contantly moving. Although there is much debate as to whether it is still growing outward at a high rate of speed, or is it now contracting inward. Some view it as being an enormous rubber band that will bounce back and forth. Outside of that? Hm, I think I view the outer 'space' as being comprised of dark matter only, somthing that keeps the universe from slamming outward too far. JMHO
Miss V

devilmech
2004-Feb-23, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Gregory Roberts@Feb 14 2004, 10:12 PM
The Universe is not infinite - Mind is. Mind is above and beyond the Universe. Before the Universe exited, Mind was there to form it. The Universe is a product of the Infinite Mind. Only the Mind is Infinite. Our mind was once part of The Infinite Mind but due to some mulfuction in the Creation of Everything it is our duty to Create Order for ourselves out of the Chaos. The Universe is in total chaos and cannot change itself - only we can change our minds to benefit us in this Chaos called Existence.
Are you by any chance related to Kent Hovind? :lol: :lol: :lol:

vorahcus
2004-Feb-24, 12:50 AM
I can't possibly imagine the size of the universe. What is the universe? If you go straight up would you travel forever? Scientists talk about objects or stars a million or so light years away. Stars that have died centuries ago are still visible. It boggles the minds of us simpletons. I don't think for one minute that one would slam into a wall at the end of the universe. Scientists can come up with their theories, but let's face it, we just don't know and probably will never know.

Faulkner
2004-Feb-24, 02:47 AM
let's face it, we just don't know and probably will never know.


I disagree. You're assuming we are "aliens" in this mysterious, unknowable "Universe". But actually we are intimately connected to it by our very subatomic particles. And we possess minds that can ask these cosmic questions. I don't see any reason why humans (however pitifully insignificant we may be in the grand scheme of things) can't one day figure out some fundamental truths about the nature of our cosmic womb/tomb...?!

hokiepokie
2004-Feb-26, 04:00 PM
IF TIME NEVER STOPS AR'NT WE IMMORTAL.?
This is the holbrook theory.

If points of view of others, is of any intrest,here's mine.
I don't know much, but my view of everything is this. If the universe is by itself or there are others,and these keep on growing,and growing into more universes,and on and on.and if there is an edge of a universes or not, or if it just keeps on going,or black holes have an effect or not for these universes, as passageways, etc.
And there is no god.( sorry but i can't believe in anything passed down in a book,changed through the years by every tom dick and harry,or the way people try to justify its meanings,i bet the first people who wrote that book would be having a right laugh at everyone now if they could). Ive been reading everyones ideas for quite a while now. BUT NOTHING CAN GET AWAY FROM THIS FACT .People die,and there bodys are put back into the system of everything,surly after a given amount of time, after planets are ended (completely) and all our molecules are flying around again i the vastness of the universe, new planets and worlds and universes are formed and ended etc,and time goes on and on. When we are all Dead and this beutifull planet of ours, as come to its end.,it is time which will bring this whole series of events around again,another planet will be formed ,and will contain life it is enevitable, your molecules will be in another spiecies of life eventualy, and a spiecies which will be awear of its existance.if not human it will be so. and mabe in time to come, the meaning of everything will be figured out .
Everything that goes into making us now,will eventualy form into another living being,which makes us all Immortal, it seems far out but if you realy sit down and think about it,and you can take it in,it makes complete sense.( remember the saying what goes around comes around) IT WILL ty for reading. <_<

devilmech
2004-Feb-26, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Faulkner@Feb 24 2004, 02:47 AM
I don&#39;t see any reason why humans (however pitifully insignificant we may be in the grand scheme of things) can&#39;t one day figure out some fundamental truths about the nature of our cosmic womb/tomb...?&#33;
I like that. Our womb is also our mausoleum. I may even have to write a song about it. I&#39;m developing this new style called cosmic black metal, and all the riffs and lyrics are grandiose and remind one of a supernova going off in one&#39;s head

Weaselbunny
2004-Feb-26, 04:43 PM
Like carcass meets power ballad? ;)

I like the point someone made about the north pole, that you can&#39;t go any further north, then someone pointed out you could go up.

If the earth is a ball that we can move around on, and in but we can&#39;t move off it cos we can&#39;t fly (unaided)... maybe the universe is like a ball that we can move around in and there is a direction to break out, we&#39;re just incapable of travelling in that direction. (And pretty crap at moving around in it as well, I know, but work with me on this one&#33;)

devilmech
2004-Feb-26, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Weaselbunny@Feb 26 2004, 04:43 PM
Like carcass meets power ballad? ;)

No no, more like Wagner meets Dimmu Borgir meets supernova. Imagine symphonic violence overlaid with cosmic imagery

Faulkner
2004-Feb-26, 06:50 PM
Like "a supernova going off in one&#39;s head"... HA&#33; I like that&#33; B) Devilmech, do you put on the ol&#39; KISS makeup when you make up your songs? :lol:

devilmech
2004-Feb-26, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Faulkner@Feb 26 2004, 06:50 PM
Like "a supernova going off in one&#39;s head"... HA&#33; I like that&#33; B) Devilmech, do you put on the ol&#39; KISS makeup when you make up your songs? :lol:
:lol: not quite :P

Sometimes I put on the Crow makeup, but it hasn&#39;t helped me write better, so I kinda feel stupid wearing it around. Especially when I have to answer the door, and give an accounting to several of my friends as to why I look like a reject from Motley Crue

Guest
2004-Feb-26, 08:15 PM
IF TIME NEVER STOPS AR&#39;NT WE IMMORTAL.?
This is the holbrook theory.

If points of view of others, is of any intrest,here&#39;s mine.
I don&#39;t know much, but my view of everything is this. If the universe is by itself or there are others,and these keep on growing,and growing into more universes,and on and on.and if there is an edge of a universes or not, or if it just keeps on going,or black holes have an effect or not for these universes, as passageways, etc.
And there is no god.( sorry but i can&#39;t believe in anything passed down in a book,changed through the years by every tom dick and harry,or the way people try to justify its meanings,i bet the first people who wrote that book would be having a right laugh at everyone now if they could). Ive been reading everyones ideas for quite a while now. BUT NOTHING CAN GET AWAY FROM THIS FACT .People die,and there bodys are put back into the system of everything,surly after a given amount of time, after planets are ended (completely) and all our molecules are flying around again i the vastness of the universe, new planets and worlds and universes are formed and ended etc,and time goes on and on. When we are all Dead and this beutifull planet of ours, as come to its end.,it is time which will bring this whole series of events around again,another planet will be formed ,and will contain life it is enevitable, your molecules will be in another spiecies of life eventualy, and a spiecies which will be awear of its existance.if not human it will be so. and mabe in time to come, the meaning of everything will be figured out .
Everything that goes into making us now,will eventualy form into another living being,which makes us all Immortal, it seems far out but if you realy sit down and think about it,and you can take it in,it makes complete sense.( remember the saying what goes around comes around) IT WILL ty for reading. <_<

endless_nameless
2004-Mar-19, 01:13 AM
This is a pretty boring theory but I say the universe is basically a sphere-it has no end.If you try to get to the end of it you&#39;ll just end up following the contours of the fabric of space and you&#39;ll inevitably end up where you started.As for what&#39;s beyond space well, there&#39;s nothing-it&#39;s impossible to imagine nothing so don&#39;t even try-we are just a three dimensional bubble floating in a void of nothingness...as for how we got there...God knows...

Faulkner
2004-Mar-19, 01:46 AM
I&#39;m not so convinced. It&#39;s a mighty BIG assumption for astronomers to say the Universe is a "hypersphere" with no edge or boundary. Where&#39;s the observational evidence for this??

I recently came across a physics site that suggested an alternative to the old "arriving back where you started" type Universe...but I stupidly lost the link. I&#39;ll keep looking&#33;

Perhaps the Universe IS truly infinite, so the question "What&#39;s beyond?" is pointless.

Who can say? But it bothers me.

stephen jackson
2004-Mar-31, 07:57 PM
The universe ends at the point where it starts and that is why you will never get to the end. If you start at any one point and travel in a straight line you will get back to the starting point ,this is probably the 1000,000,000 time iv&#39;ve wrote this -its the same for life when we die we are born the same life --if someone is born in 1920 and dies in 1980 a split second after he dies its now 1920 again

Planetwatcher
2004-Apr-01, 02:01 AM
I think that endless_nameless is on to a point, which aggrees with what I said before. Water. Endless water. ;)

Faulkner
2004-Apr-01, 02:44 AM
The universe ends at the point where it starts and that is why you will never get to the end. If you start at any one point and travel in a straight line you will get back to the starting point ,this is probably the 1000,000,000 time iv&#39;ve wrote this

Sounds nice, but it&#39;s pure assumption. Let&#39;s face it. Tell me how a 3D space can twist back on itself in ANY direction? It&#39;s not akin to the surface of a balloon AT ALL (in my opinion).

OK, so maybe it&#39;s impossible for the human brain to visualize, but show me the mathematics that support this idea&#33;

Darcan
2004-Apr-01, 04:17 AM
its not a straight line if it goes back into itself. if you believe that mathematics has any sort of stance in this, a straight line goes on forever in both directions.

what i believe is that the universe is basically sets of planes grouped together, and a certain amount of space between these planes that allows a "drop". the drop occurs when an object (doesn&#39;t have to be matter) falls out of time. they literally stop. this stop puts them in between these planes and because they are no longer within the universe, they are all around it. with black holes, i believe it is the same. there is a drop, and all that was in, is moved out. the universe expands (if it expands) into this out. they only way you can visualize this is to imagine being in a ball, like this (me) to being pushed out and then having it be like this ()me, but at the same time having been pushed between planes, one of growing mass and the other of growing mass from the first that it doesn&#39;t use anymore. if that didn&#39;t help you picture it, how about a growing person, eating food, getting bigger, but at the same time throwing out all the waste and excess that isnt in use anymore, helping the grass grow, for the animals to eat for the person to eat. so maybe the universe is growing into itself.

sorry for wasting space here, i wont do it again im sure.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-01, 08:56 PM
OK, my brain hurts&#33;

jdgrove
2004-Apr-01, 09:20 PM
I think the concept of something being beyond the universe as we understand it can best be conceived be imagining that you wish to travel to the "Edge" of the universe. Assuming you could travel that far within your lifetime and you get to the point where it appears there is nothing and you continue to try to go on. What happens would be similar to trying to leave earths&#39; orbit without enough thrust, although you would think you are moving ahead, you would be continually falling back into the Universe (or to earth in the hypo). And how would one define "beyond the universe". Perhaps the idea of "nothing" being beyond the edge of the universe is right, and that there is a point at which atoms will no longer bond (maybe it&#39;s all hydrogen, maybe it&#39;s all neutrons and electrons that don&#39;t effect each other. Maybe if you passed a certain point your body would break down at an atomic level). Rather like how one becomes weightless when they achieve orbit.
Just a thought, and somehow I think it&#39;s got to be more complicated than that. What about time?

Spacemad
2004-Apr-01, 09:58 PM
:unsure: If you could travel to the "end of the Universe" would be to imply that the Universe is finite, i.e: has a beginning & an end. Most scientists now accept that we live in an expanding universe, yes, it started somewhere/time (The Big Bang theory seems to have been proven to be correct with the lastest data from space satellites) but if it is expanding, how can we ever hope to reach its edge? Even if that were possible surely there would be no "beyond". Beyond implies somewhere farther, but if the Universe is expanding there can be no "beyond" , no "outside" , we are here, neither "inside" or "outside". "Here" is what there is - (.) period&#33;

Anthony
2004-Apr-01, 10:22 PM
It makes sense to me that if the Universe is expanding, then it must be finite. I cannot reason how if something is infinite, it could still expand. For example, a number can be infinite because you can always add another zero. Adding or deleting a number in the sequence, however, does not change the fact that the number can go on infinitely. Or to question it another way, if the Universe is infinite, how can it then be explained that the planets and stars which are moving away from each other are causing it to expand further if it is already infinite?

Please feel free to rip my theory apart if you have any comments..

Pluto
2004-Apr-01, 10:38 PM
If the big bang happened, it created energy and matter (which may just be enegy at its fundamental basis), as we know it. The energy/matter soup expanded into something, like empty space, or it could not expand. Everything I read says it is still expanding, so it must be filing up some empty space. If the sapce were not empty, there would seem to be some kind of resistance to the expansion and therefore compresion of the soup at the edges. No one has detected this. The Universe is what is in the interior of the expanding energy/matter soup. Since the Universe is not expanding at the speed of light, some probe should be able to get to the edge and learn the truth. However if the expansion is accelerating, which is the latest theroy or discovery, over time, it would get to the spead of light and we could never catch up to the "edge" to find out.

So it would seem, that the question is and will forever be open to speculation and forclosed from knowing to earthlings. As is any mumbo jumbo about multiple universes, 20 something demensions, and whats on the other side (or interior) of a black hole.

nukemoss
2004-Apr-01, 10:41 PM
:rolleyes:
[COLOR=red]
Probably an incredible vibration at a frequency measurable by it&#39;s existence.

wwade
2004-Apr-01, 10:45 PM
beyond the universe is non rabbits, millions of them

Guest
2004-Apr-01, 11:46 PM
maybe the universe is just matter and energy expaning into space and time.... unless im totally wrong.

Guest
2004-Apr-02, 12:29 AM
according to hubble,s constant ,all receding galaxies are shifting to the red end.maybe thery have already been there and going in the oppesit e direction to ward the blue end.complteting the cycle toward the infinite point in space start the cycle again...all this without stopping and reversing itself....never ending cycle..... ee swider edwardswider@yahoo.com

ThinkingOutsideTheBox
2004-Apr-02, 12:55 AM
What if the edge of the expanding visiable universe is traveling at light speed? We will never see the edge as the light cannot reach us. :blink:

Kromp
2004-Apr-02, 01:20 AM
I don&#39;t know, but I wish I did

E. Ginsberg
2004-Apr-02, 01:20 AM
All matter from electrons, protrons, neutrons, are designed by the thing, or things,
that made us, are circular, or revolve in circular motion.
From the egg to the most far away star system, the program design always
remains circular. Therefore it may be likely that what our limited senses
see could be dimensions within dimensions, and time warped so that the eternal
circle could at some point complete itself ?
Since we are within this eternal time, space circle, we can never know the parimeters, or our boundaries so to speak.
So to try to imagine beyond the edge of the equation, which is beyond the ability of
the human brain, as it is at the present time. This will change if you are young
enough to still be living in the next two decades. Time will soon be in your favor.
Time will answer your question.

Go Spurs!
2004-Apr-03, 02:02 AM
Me thinks the universe is boundried by intense radiation prohibiting any formation of atomic structure. Maybe making the universe an expansive encroachment thru it.

errorist
2004-Apr-03, 03:47 AM
More universe&#33;

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-03, 08:57 AM
Treacle :P

damienpaul
2004-Apr-03, 09:08 AM
vegemite...:lol:

Faulkner
2004-Apr-04, 05:18 PM
Promite. (Vegemite sux).

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-04, 06:09 PM
Promite
Eh?

I know vegemite=marmite... what the hell&#39;s promite?

(Vegemite sux).
Yes... more than anything that has ever sucked before (well almost).

damienpaul
2004-Apr-04, 10:02 PM
Ok marmalade

Faulkner
2004-Apr-06, 01:24 PM
Promite is like vegemite, Weaselbunny, but it tastes nice. Promite-and-cheese sandwiches are pretty cool.


Tell me how a 3D space can twist back on itself in ANY direction?

I still want an answer to my question, please&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-06, 04:20 PM
I still want an answer to my question, please&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
Yeah, I have trouble with this too. If you&#39;re travelling in a straight line in 3D space, then how can you possibly come back to your starting point, because in three dimensions a straight line would never meet itself, or it wouldn&#39;t be straight.

Or is my view too simplistic? :huh:

David S
2004-Apr-06, 10:46 PM
I&#39;m hoping this explination will clear some things up.

*Note: I&#39;ll be refering to our universe as 3-Dimensional, even though it has 4 dimensions. Our universe has three spatial dimensions and one temproal dimension, and since it&#39;s only the 3 space dimensions that I am talking about this will simplifiy things.*


We live in a 3 dimensional universe, and as such we are 3 dimensional beings. Our entire life is spent dealing with only 3 dimensions and so trying to picture a 4th dimension is impossible. If you don&#39;t believe me, try it. Try moving in a direction that is not up/down, left/right, or forward/back, or some combination of those 3 directions and you will fail miserably.

Unfortunatly, since our universe has 3 dimensions the only way to get outside it (or to even picture outside it) is to travel in AT LEAST 4 dimensions, maybe more. And since it&#39;s so difficult for us to imagine that, we usually cheat and picture a 3 dimensional sphere (our universe) floating inside a bigger 3 dimensional sphere, which gives the universe nice, well defined edges that we may someday cross. This is most likely a flawed view of our universe.

However, it IS possible to picture a 2 dimensional universe. Why is this helpful? Because by picturing the effects that 3 dimensions would have on a 2 dimensional universe, we can then add one dimension to everything and see what effect 4 dimensions would have on our 3 dimensional universe.

Begin by picture a planet sized sphere floating in space. The surface of this sphere is perfectly smooth. Living on this sphere are 2 dimensional beings, who&#39;s entire life is lived on that sphere. Indead their entire observable universe would be limited to the surface of that sphere. Because they are 2 dimensional, they cannot move in the 3rd dimension, either away from the planet or towards it&#39;s center. In fact, they cannot even look up because "up" would require an extra dimension, and they have no concept of a 3rd dimension. Everything about their tiny universe is limited to 2 dimensions. If you were to go there and try to explain what the 3rd dimension was like, most likely they wouldn&#39;t even be able to imagine it.

So, since for all intents and purposes that sphere was their entire universe, would any of those creatures be able to point to a spot and say "this is the center of the universe"? What about "this is the edge of the universe"? The answer is no. That 2-D universe would have no center, and no edge. If they traveled in (what they precieve to be) a straight line, they would curve around the planet and eventually end up where they started. No matter how far they went, they would be unable to leave that sphere by traveling only in 2 dimensions. However, if by some miricale they where suddenly able to travel in the 3rd dimension, they would be able to leave that sphere from any point on it&#39;s surface.

Now, our universe is very similar to that. We have no center to our universe, and we also have no edge. If we went in a straight line for long enough, we would end up right back here. If we wanted to travel outside our universe, we would need an extra dimension to travel in. However, because we are 3 dimensional beings, attempting to picture what a 4th spatial dimension would look like is somewhat beyond us. The good news is that if by some mirical we are able to travel in the 4th dimension, we don&#39;t need to go to some far off distant "edge" of our universe to leave it. From where you are sitting if you went 1/2 an inch in the 4th dimension, you would leave our universe.

So asking the questiong "What exists 10 feet past the edge of our universe" is kind of like asking "What exists 10 feet north of the north pole".


I hope this analogy helps somewhat.

Cygnus X-1
2004-Apr-07, 01:05 AM
If we observe the furthest visible object, a quasar I presume, at 13 some-odd billion lightyears away..... where is it "now"?

Faulkner
2004-Apr-07, 08:27 AM
Cheers AstroWannabe for taking the time & effort to tackle this&#33; This is a side of astronomy/cosmology that interests me (disturbs me) the most&#33;


So, since for all intents and purposes that sphere was their entire universe, would any of those creatures be able to point to a spot and say "this is the center of the universe"? What about "this is the edge of the universe"? The answer is no. That 2-D universe would have no center, and no edge. If they traveled in (what they precieve to be) a straight line, they would curve around the planet and eventually end up where they started.

No problem here&#33; BUT...


our universe is very similar to that. We have no center to our universe, and we also have no edge. If we went in a straight line for long enough, we would end up right back here.

That is a mighty leap of faith, in my opinion. You (well, not "you" but the general astronomical consensus out there) are making a dodgy analogy. I say dodgy, because I&#39;ve yet to see how the 2 ideas can be logically connected. Describing the Universe in terms of a 2D spherical "surface" is, admittedly, a very convenient tool. But it is no more than that, a mere play of words that has no "scientific" connection with the way things really are&#33;&#33;&#33;

As you admit, applying the analogy to the real Universe necessitates the introduction of more dimensions.

I think the analogy breaks down here, it becomes something of a cop-out.

I guess what I&#39;m saying is, where&#39;s the "science" in all this? Describing the Universe as a 3D curved "sphere" is (while a nice & cosy idea) nothing more than faith. How does it curve around upon itself? Why does it curve around? Wouldn&#39;t it need some massive gravitational force to bend it around like a black hole??

And another thing, hasn&#39;t latest measurements proven the Universe to be "flat" in its structure, not curved? - ie if you travelled in a straight line, you would NOT arrive back at your starting point?


If we observe the furthest visible object, a quasar I presume, at 13 some-odd billion lightyears away..... where is it "now"?

I&#39;d like to hear an answer here too&#33;

A question: Why is the Universe so "counter-intuitive" to our minds, when our minds are in fact products of this same Universe?

Cygnus X-1
2004-Apr-08, 02:54 AM
To base the age of the universe on the distance of the furthest visible object seems to me to be a paradox. For the time it takes the light from such an object to reach our eyes, it had an equal amount of time to get away from us in "space" we cannot account for.

David S
2004-Apr-08, 02:56 AM
My analogy before was meant to show that in order to leave our universe you would need to travel in more then 3 dimensions, and once you could then you could leave our universe from any point. A one dimensional universe (a line) would require motion in 2 dimensions to leave it. A 2-D universe would require 3 dimensions to leave it, and there&#39;s no reason not to think that a 3-D universe would require 4 dimensions to leave it.

You can curve a line around on itself, but you need 2 dimensions to picture it. You can curve a plane around on itself (to form a sphere), but you need 3 dimensions to picture it, and you can curve a 3-D universe around on itself, but you need 4 dimensions to picture it, which we don&#39;t have. Since we can&#39;t picture it, it&#39;s very hard to imagine. But by using lower dimensional analogies, we can at least understand that it is possible.


A question: Why is the Universe so "counter-intuitive" to our minds, when our minds are in fact products of this same Universe?

Our minds are products of natural evolution here on Earth. Our minds evolved to be able to intuitively understand the earth, not necessarily the Universe.


I guess what I&#39;m saying is, where&#39;s the "science" in all this? Describing the Universe as a 3D curved "sphere" is (while a nice & cosy idea) nothing more than faith. How does it curve around upon itself? Why does it curve around? Wouldn&#39;t it need some massive gravitational force to bend it around like a black hole??


Our galaxy has a center to it. We know this because we look in one direction and there is a very high concentration of stars. We look in the other direction and there is very few stars. If our universe had a center to it we would expect to see the same thing, yet on a large scale our universe is very smooth. There is no direction in the sky that has a larger number of galaxies then any other direction, and in all directions the farthest we can see is about the same, 13 billion light years. We aren&#39;t able to see in one direction 20 billion light years and in the other direction only 5.

Our Universe is curved due to the gravity that the matter in the universe generates. A black hole isn&#39;t necessary to create this.



And another thing, hasn&#39;t latest measurements proven the Universe to be "flat" in its structure, not curved? - ie if you travelled in a straight line, you would NOT arrive back at your starting point?

Almost correct. The universe is NEARLY flat. On a local scale (such as the size of galaxies and clusters of galaxies) it is so close to being flat that for all intents and purposes it is. Think of the surface of the Earth. The earth is curved, but on a local scale you can&#39;t look at the ground and see it curving.

However, the COBE satallite and more recently the WMAP satallite have discovered a curve to the overall geometry of spacetime by studying the CMB radiation. Slight fluxuations in the temperature of the CMB radiation reveal that yes indeed, the universe is curved, but only just slightly.


For the moment, though, consider that the universe does in fact have an edge to it, a point that says "over there is the universe, and over here is outside the universe". By deffinition, the universe is EVERYTHING. So if the universe was just a 3-d sphere floating inside a bigger 3-d sphere, then what&#39;s outside our "universe" would still be a part of our universe. In that case, the universe would go on forever (and an infinte universe has not been entirely ruled out), which would still mean that it didn&#39;t have an edge.

So with either a curved, closed off universe or an infinte universe, there would still be no edge to it.

Faulkner
2004-Apr-08, 12:58 PM
Excellent reply to a persistent question, pal. Interesting how in a one-dimensional universe, a 2nd dimension is required to leave it, and it would extend infinitely. But to leave those 2 dimensions, a 3rd dimension must be introduced, which would extend indefinitely too. Etc etc. But hey, that&#39;s another story.


You can curve a line around on itself, but you need 2 dimensions to picture it.

Yes&#33; I agree&#33;


You can curve a plane around on itself (to form a sphere), but you need 3 dimensions to picture it

No&#33; I disagree&#33;

How do you fold an "infinite 2D plane" into a seamless 3D object?

For that matter, let&#39;s go back... How is 2D possible? It doesn&#39;t have "thickness". It just has length & breadth. Without "thickness", it wouldn&#39;t exist at all&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

For that matter, 1D (a line without any breadth) or even 0D (a dimensionless point - ie a point that&#39;s not even there&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;) are ridiculous concepts also.

"OK, it&#39;s impossible for a 3-dimensional human being&#39;s brain to visualize it."

But is that the best response science can come up with? I wouldn&#39;t call it "science", then&#33; Just WORD GAMES&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Don&#39;t get me wrong, pal, I&#39;m not arguing with you, just vomiting out my opinion on this fundamentally IMPORTANT issue&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I appreciate you taking your time responding&#33;&#33;&#33;


However, the COBE satallite and more recently the WMAP satallite have discovered a curve to the overall geometry of spacetime by studying the CMB radiation. Slight fluxuations in the temperature of the CMB radiation reveal that yes indeed, the universe is curved, but only just slightly.

I haven&#39;t found this on the net at all. Just a helluva lot of "maybes" and "perhaps&#39;s"&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Ie. the universe "appears" flat because it&#39;s been stretched by rapid early "inflation"...

I&#39;m not necessarily disagreeing here&#33;&#33;&#33; I just want ALL THE FACTS, PLEASE&#33;&#33;&#33; (How else am I meant to "believe" in something???) :P

And Cygnus X-1 still has an unanswered question there...&#33;? I for one have no idea how to answer that.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-08, 03:31 PM
And Cygnus X-1 still has an unanswered question there...&#33;?
Could they use the Doppler Effect to help figure it out?

David S
2004-Apr-10, 05:27 AM
How do you fold an "infinite 2D plane" into a seamless 3D object?

If it&#39;s infinite, you can&#39;t. I was refering to a finite 1-D line, a finite 2-D plane, and a finite 3-D universe. If the universe is infinitley large, then your right, it can&#39;t curve around on itself.

However, since the universe does have a measurable curve to it, it is one of the strong pieces of evidence we have that it is a closed system, and does not extend to infinity (I neglected to include it in my earlier post). If the universe was infinite then it SHOULD be perfectly flat. Any curve to it, and it must eventually meet up with itself and form a closed system.


I haven&#39;t found this on the net at all. Just a helluva lot of "maybes" and "perhaps&#39;s"&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Ie. the universe "appears" flat because it&#39;s been stretched by rapid early "inflation"...

I found information on the COBE and WMAP satallites by reading about them in books and magazine articles, or from discussing them with my university professors. I never actually did any research about them on the web, so I&#39;m really not sure where you would go for that.


"OK, it&#39;s impossible for a 3-dimensional human being&#39;s brain to visualize it."

But is that the best response science can come up with? I wouldn&#39;t call it "science", then&#33; Just WORD GAMES&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

That&#39;s the best response I could come up with, not science. But it&#39;s still true. I cannot visualize traveling in a direction that does not include up/down, left/right, or forward/back. Can you?

From Cygnus X-1:


To base the age of the universe on the distance of the furthest visible object seems to me to be a paradox. For the time it takes the light from such an object to reach our eyes, it had an equal amount of time to get away from us in "space" we cannot account for.

This is a very intresting point. I&#39;ll explain what I can, but I don&#39;t know the complete answer.

The reason we base the age of the universe PARTIALLY (we don&#39;t use just one method for finding the age of the universe) on how far away the furthest objects are is because the furthest object is 13 billion light years away, but IF there are objects furthur away then that (lets say, 15 billion light years), the only reason that we can&#39;t see them is because the light from those objects has not had enough time to reach us. So since the furthest object is 13 BLY away then the universe must be at least that old, and it can&#39;t be much older cause otherwise we could see furthur. A 20 billion year old universe means that light has had the opportunity to travel 20 billion light years, and so we should see objects about that far away. That&#39;s the intuitive reason. There is another reason based on other observations.

Keep in mind that the further out into space you look the furthur back in time you look. Once we look far enough, we see what we call the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. This is basically the "Glow" from the big bang, from a time very shortly after the big bang. The fact that we can see that tells us that there cannot be anymore stars and galaxies furthur away then that, because since furthur away means furthur back in time, those stars and galaxies would have to have existed at a time when the universe was so hot and dense that electrons could not bind to atoms. This is also a time that existed very shortly after the Big Bang, which means that very much furthur and you would run into the big bang itself. I don&#39;t mean that if you TRAVELED there you would run into the big bang, just that light coming from there would have come from the big bang. Unfortunatly the CMB prevents us from seeing any furthur.

This kind of brings up your question, and the part I am not clear on. Since those objects are 13 billion light years away, and they probably have not been standing still for the past 13 billion years, doesn&#39;t that mean that they have receeded a good deal furthur? Today, wouldn&#39;t they be much furthur away, maybe 20 or 25 billion light years away? I realize that I am restating your question, but it is a very good one. This would allow for a universe that is much larger then the one we can see, but it still wouldn&#39;t allow for an infinte universe.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-10, 01:40 PM
Astro, I like how you explain things, I can follow them (even with my tiny weasel brain). Keep it up :D :D

Nick4
2004-Apr-10, 02:47 PM
I think that beond the universe is compleat nothingness.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-11, 02:12 AM
I find the idea of complete nothingness hard to grasp, but then, that&#39;s a human brain for you&#33; :rolleyes:

Cygnus X-1
2004-Apr-11, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the reply Astro. The CMB indeed is "a wall of light" that we observe as the first release of photons in the early Universe. These photons are red-shifted, meaning the CMB is moving away from us in all directions like quasars and galaxies. My point is conceptually, this "wall" must now be in "space" we cannot account for. I don&#39;t think we can conceive whats beyond the Universe before we concieve the true nature of the Universe itself. Cosmology is as strange as it is fun to ponder.

Nick4
2004-Apr-11, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Weaselbunny@Apr 11 2004, 02:12 AM
I find the idea of complete nothingness hard to grasp, but then, that&#39;s a human brain for you&#33; :rolleyes:
It is hard for me to grasp too but ther hast to be an end to every thing the nothingness of space after the univers is probly not empty ther probly is dark matter and dark energy but we cant see this with our eyes or with special telescopes so i would say that it never ends as matter and evergy but it dose end in visual objects.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-12, 08:23 PM
Just my mind wandering. But as we live in &#39;something&#39; the concept of nothing is hard to grasp, but equally hard to grasp is why there is something in the first place&#33; We live life thinking that everything comes from somewhere. :blink:

Blue Fire
2004-Apr-17, 12:58 PM
You Go, AstroWannabe&#33; Excellent explanations and argument&#33; Ya took the words right out of my mouth, as I persued down through the messages and was contemplating my own reactions. Only I think you did a better job than I could have. It appears that you share my understanding of the nature of the universe - it&#39;s nice to have that kind of confirmation from time to time just to assure yourself that you aren&#39;t as crazy as some might think. Indeed, what&#39;s beyond the universe has perplexed humans since they began to think about boundaries and what might be on the "other side." It is a mindset that I was trapped in for years as I tried to wrap my brain around the concept of "never ending" but finite geometry. It seems that I "always knew" that there had to be something beyong any boundary. But that was before I read Flatland by Edwin Abbot. And learned to actually understand how a circle has no end and yet is finite, how the surface of a sphere is boundless but is still finite, and how the surface a hyperspere (if that turns out to be what our current perception of our universe is) can have no "end" or boundary to it and yet be finite.

Again, nice job&#33;

P.S.: on the other hand, I haven&#39;t yet been able to accept that my mind is either bounded or finite. So, maybe there IS a chance to keep chasing beyond that which seems finite and pursue whatever May lie beyond,... just to see for myself. :-)

kingSKL
2004-Apr-17, 03:05 PM
i say that maybe by going past that border line of the universe, one would simply cease to exist, return back to one&#39;s starting point, probably go back in time,or enter another universe. These are just speculations, who knows whats beyond the universe an perhaps no one will ever know.

eddy
2004-Apr-17, 03:54 PM
i dont think taht man will have that technology to prove it. though there are many speculations like the arguments listed above, however in million years to come, man may not even find out waht is beyond that. i belived that once we cross the border, wat there may be a universe that it is an inversion to ours.

lilandpeter
2004-Apr-17, 05:54 PM
It seems that we have moved from the realm of astrophysics to philosophy
and even &#39;theology&#39; as the universe ...as we know it .... is finite... but if
we consider the universe to be finite then we are faced with the vision of
a finite entity within an infinite dimension and as we can only &#39;&#39;imagine&#39;&#39;
and work in a time/space-four-dimensional mindframe it is imposible; at the
moment to describe a finite universe that is in an infinite space/time continuum.
Perhaps when time and space &#39;&#39;end&#39;&#39; then the other dimensions take over
in a way that is at the momemt for us, philosophical or even theological &#33;&#33;
When quantum physics meets relativity there is a big bang...&#33;&#33;&#33;

Sp1ke
2004-Apr-19, 03:16 PM
I think the main problem we&#39;ll always have is that when we try to imagine the universe, it&#39;s always in terms of something "in" something else. Like a sphere - so what&#39;s the sphere in? Or a moving outer wall - moving into what?

The tricky thing to get your head round is that the universe is all there is. Space and time only exist within the universe so there is no "outside". How can you imagine a place where there is no space and time?

When people believed the earth was flat, they presumably kept saying "What happens when you get to the edge? You must fall off into something". But now we&#39;re all happy with travelling on and on without an edge to fall over. And the universe is the same - there is no edge.

Moh
2004-Apr-20, 02:18 PM
there was no big bang. the universe is still the same as it was is and will be ie at infinite mass and density the size of the pencil point, its only our imagination that has grown. in the beginning there was nothing, right now there is nothing, and in the future there will be nothing, (except our imagination)

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-20, 03:28 PM
the universe is... at infinite mass and density the size of the pencil point,
So are you saying that the universe is in fact a singularity... bold statement friend&#33;

Skip
2004-Apr-27, 08:35 PM
Well, I stumbled on this forum whilst looking for some info on the universe etc, and have actually sat n read every post - jees i got too much time on my hands&#33;

Anyway, the way i see it is this

There cannot be anything outside of the universe because the universe by definition is EVERYTHING&#33;&#33; To talk of parallel universes, even to use the word universe in its plural form is conceptual wrong - you cannot have more than 1 everything, because everything means everything&#33;
It is incredibly hard to visualise, dare i say impossible, but whatever is &#39;outside&#39; the universe must be part of the universe, if it exists then it is part of the universe, no matter where it is&#33; Thus there can be no edge to the universe.
We can only really talk of the &#39;visible universe&#39; ie what we can see, or observe using the light from distant bodies.
Basically we have a problem with language and our definitions. I can appreciate the whole &#39;the universe must be expanding into something&#39; idea, because by pure logic this must be the case. I also understand the idea of a 4 dimensional universe with the joining of space and time, but we simlpy cannot begin to understand 4+ dimensions because we have no experience of it.
I think a better word to use instead of universe would be &#39;microcosm&#39; and there are x microcosms in the &#39;universe&#39;.
Imagine the life of a snail, its &#39;universe&#39; consists of a few leaves n bushes, it can never know what exists say 50 miles away. We would just call this a small microcosm of life, in a similar way we are a small microcosm in the grand scheme of things, the whole idea like a previous post points out is similar to the scene at the end of men in black with the marbles.
The problem with any theory or idea concerning the &#39;universe&#39; is TIME. Even if you accept that the universe is all there is and there is nothing outsie of it, it is still hard to get your head aroud the idea of the big bang, what existed before the big bang? Something must have existed to create the big bang, so there must have been something before the universe, if there was something before the universe was created then surely this would have been outside of the universe?
You just begin to tie yourself up in knots here and its all because of our perception of time, and how you can always ask &#39;what happened before that?&#39;
Everthing would be so much easier if time didnt exist, but what is time?
We say that the big bang is when space and time came together to form spacetime, which created &#39;our universe&#39;.
Thus logic suggests that 2 things exists outside of &#39;the universe&#39; - time and space&#33;

At the end of the day, &#39;at the moment&#39; there is no real answer to this question, and I doubt anyone will EVER know the answer. I remember reading a quote somewhere - &#39;If the human brain was simple enough for us to understand, we wouldnt be clever enough understand it&#39;

Whilst its nice to ponder the meaning of life and the origins of the universe over a few bevies with your mates, the reality of it all is that you cant change things so why bother worrying about it.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-27, 09:13 PM
OK, I&#39;ve been doing some reading, and I haven&#39;t got the time on my hands to review all posts so forgive me if I reiterate anything. This is just what my human mind can interpret from the genius of bigger human minds, but this is my conclusion... for now&#33;


We say that the big bang is when space and time came together to form spacetime, which created &#39;our universe&#39;.


It&#39;s thought that the big bang was like a black hole in reverse, that everything came from one point, smaller than an atom, smaler than a quark&#33; (Bearing in mind that at a black hole&#39;s singularity, because of the huge gravity, time effectively stops... no time) From this point a soup of elementary particles was spewed which later formed more complex combinations with the results as we see them in the universe around us. Before this time there was no space. Space is a fabric of elementary particles, the vacuum is not &#39;empty&#39; but is comprised of a &#39;quatum foam&#39;. These things came from this single point. Space was created at the point of the big bang. Time was also, as I know has been mentioned. Space and time were made up of parts which for all we know did not exist before the big bang. My tiny weasel brain is aching, but I&#39;ve finally wrapped my head around the concept that there is no space or time outside the universe.


the reality of it all is that you cant change things so why bother worrying about it.

It&#39;s good to question things and exercise the old cerebrum&#33;

I know that I&#39;ve mainly repeated what has already been said, but I&#39;ve put it in terms I understand. I wanted you guys to know that when I first came to this thread in the forum I was green on this subject... but I&#39;ve learnt... cheers guys. B)

michael_myers
2004-Apr-27, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Weaselbunny@Apr 27 2004, 09:13 PM

It&#39;s thought that the big bang was like a black hole in reverse, that everything came from one point, smaller than an atom, smaler than a quark&#33;




The problem with talking about &#39; a black hole in reverse&#39; instantly conjures up the notion of time. Also, this infinitesimally small point must have existed &#39;in&#39; something else, so you still get back to the idea that there must be something outside of the universe - plus, where did this so called &#39;black hole&#39; come from, and what about the energy needed to start the big bang - was energy somehow created, violating the laws of physics?


I also enjoy exercising the grey matter, I merely put that last line in for a bit of light relief since i was beginning to waffle. I am by no means an expert myself and merely expressing my thoughts and views on a very interesting topic.

rambo07
2004-Apr-28, 08:47 AM
i think that ,the whole universe that we know of ,isnt all that where is,the universe is only as old as the big bang it came from,,,,,however what if, in this universe there are more than one big bang ? and all we can see is no more than our own local bubble universe ,what if bubble universes are similar to galaxyies, and bubble universes move around each other and interact with each other just like galaxies do today?

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-28, 02:36 PM
Now we&#39;re back into achey brain territory again&#33; The problem is that every time you go back a stage, you find yourself asking the same question again&#33; Where did the universe come from, where did the thing that the universe came from come from etc.

We&#39;re taught from birth that everything comes from somewhere, every effect has a cause... I suspect that if humans ever figure it out, it&#39;s going to turn recieved perceptions on their head.

GOURDHEAD
2004-Apr-29, 02:32 AM
What&#39;s beyond the universe is the place of its birth which is void and without form.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-29, 03:14 PM
nice concise answer... i don&#39;t feel any need to argue with it&#33;

MLK
2004-May-08, 02:11 AM
i think humans will never be able to grasp the concept of forever. In what humans have learned over the years is completely wrong just like the fact that the earth is round, oneday we might use all of our brain and figure out and end to forever. There is ppl like einstein that seemed to be on the right track, or copmpletely wrong. I personaly believe, at this time, that the universe is dimensions that go on for eternity. Not all of them are like ours with stars, but could be filled with... well anything. I believe that heven and hell are also these dimensions. Which brings me to why we r here and how we got here, which is just as unconceivable as forever. Secrets lie out there that we wil never discover, if there is a wall, whats beyond the wall, or WHO. The human mind just caant comprehend this. Black holes? where to, another dimension? has to be, where else? nowhere, nowhere is somewhere else, nothing can be completely destroyed it will always exist in some smal form. Our little earth is nothing, we know nothing. The universe when thought of questions life itself, reality.
Are we living a dream, in our grave, from a past life. The universe is far too complicated for us to comprehend in our little minds, if we ever find out, everything we ever knew, or thot we knew will be questioned,it should b already, if we think of it. Are the stars really other suns, we dont know for sure, we kno nothing.
who started it, what started it? ITs really no use thinking about this, bcuz until we die, or find the most unbelievable answer to it all, we will never kno. Bcuz humans cant believe that something has always been there, bcuz we dont know eternity. Tommorow i will concieve something new, its just so beyond us that anything goes. Im just rambleing and having truble trying not to bore anyone, but it baffles me, and
i believe that we cant figure thios out, not with our info now. But maybe we will kno in 50 years, think of how fast we got to the moon fom when we started, think of how fast we have developed in just 10 years, we WILL kno, soon very SOON.

A 14 year old GT kid who doesnt even get great grades all the time, plays AAU basketball but has a mind beyond his age by experiences. My life is rough and i think of things that baffle myslef, i hope to write again when i think of somthing new
thanku

MLK
2004-May-08, 02:12 AM
i think humans will never be able to grasp the concept of forever. In what humans have learned over the years is completely wrong just like the fact that the earth is round, oneday we might use all of our brain and figure out and end to forever. There is ppl like einstein that seemed to be on the right track, or copmpletely wrong. I personaly believe, at this time, that the universe is dimensions that go on for eternity. Not all of them are like ours with stars, but could be filled with... well anything. I believe that heven and hell are also these dimensions. Which brings me to why we r here and how we got here, which is just as unconceivable as forever. Secrets lie out there that we wil never discover, if there is a wall, whats beyond the wall, or WHO. The human mind just caant comprehend this. Black holes? where to, another dimension? has to be, where else? nowhere, nowhere is somewhere else, nothing can be completely destroyed it will always exist in some smal form. Our little earth is nothing, we know nothing. The universe when thought of questions life itself, reality.
Are we living a dream, in our grave, from a past life. The universe is far too complicated for us to comprehend in our little minds, if we ever find out, everything we ever knew, or thot we knew will be questioned,it should b already, if we think of it. Are the stars really other suns, we dont know for sure, we kno nothing.
who started it, what started it? ITs really no use thinking about this, bcuz until we die, or find the most unbelievable answer to it all, we will never kno. Bcuz humans cant believe that something has always been there, bcuz we dont know eternity. Tommorow i will concieve something new, its just so beyond us that anything goes. Im just rambleing and having truble trying not to bore anyone, but it baffles me, and
i believe that we cant figure thios out, not with our info now. But maybe we will kno in 50 years, think of how fast we got to the moon fom when we started, think of how fast we have developed in just 10 years, we WILL kno, soon very SOON.

-----A 14 year old GT kid who doesnt even get great grades all the time, plays AAU basketball but has a mind beyond his age by experiences. My life is rough and i think of things that baffle myslef, i hope to write again when i think of somthing new
thanku

mlk
2004-May-08, 02:17 AM
is our universe simly a germ cell on a eyelash of another being. Is there universes on our own body, simply to hard to figure out. But think about it itscompletely possible for a universe on a germ cell or an ATOM. Atoms could be universes, im not getting into dimensions cuz i said it on my other post

----14 year old B)

StarLab
2004-May-08, 03:34 AM
Here&#39;s something for your 14-year-old brain to digest a bit: what if you could think of universes and dimensions as the same thing... ;)

GREAT MIND
2004-May-17, 01:40 AM
We are never going to catch up with the expansion of the universe. We would have to go at the speed of light. Even if we did get there somehow, i think we would be destroyed as we crossed the barrier because it would be into an area of no mass, time, or space. it would be going into the past and therefore going the speed of light and therefore IMPOSSIBLE.

Sam
8th grade genius

Please respond.

StarLab
2004-May-17, 03:26 AM
What if we could overcome the out-of-bounds; I mean, by then we will have morphed, transformed, or mutated into some consciousness that could withstand all matter, energy, and places with a lack of both...

StarLab
2004-May-17, 03:28 AM
Additionally, what if it turned out there was no need to cross the border?&#33;

Sp1ke
2004-May-18, 11:35 PM
there was no need to cross the border?

Ah, but as soon as we see a border, human nature drives us to cross that border.

Set a limit and someone&#39;s bound to try to exceed that limit.

"Progress is made by unreasonable people"
:D

StarLab
2004-May-19, 01:03 AM
But still, Sp1ke, human nature is to cross the bounds when it is felt that something new can be accomplished. If we find out that the universe is going to stay in perfect shape for a Hella long time, why bother crossing the border?

Forealfc
2004-May-19, 04:22 PM
Hi Everyone.. Read Below.. Just found this on CNN today... pretty interesting..
WOW&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;



CNN) -- The Chandra Space Telescope has gathered further evidence the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, scientists at NASA and Britain&#39;s Institute of Astronomy announced Tuesday. The finding sheds new light on a force known as "dark energy."

"Dark energy is perhaps the biggest mystery in physics," said Steve Allen at the Institute of Astronomy in Cambridge, England.

According to scientists, dark energy is the force that fills the space between galaxies and drives them apart.

"The universe really is accelerating," Allen said. "By using Chandra to study galaxy clusters, we have obtained strong new evidence for dark energy and clear and direct confirmation that the expansion of our universe is accelerating."

national_acrobat
2004-May-27, 08:27 PM
when you think of the universe think of dimensions and not time and space&#33;
to travel from point a to point b takes both time and space...but when dealing with dimensions maybe time and space have no fortitued? time is something we record&#33;
and space is something we fill? :unsure:

John L
2004-May-27, 08:42 PM
Time and Space are dimensions.

QJones
2004-May-27, 09:01 PM
Dimensions are actually a measurement of change. If something can change, in some way, then a dimension (or multiple dimensions) are involved. My fingers change their x,y,z coordinates as I type, and they&#39;re changing along those dimensions. As well, though, they&#39;re changing in time.

We can operate in the 3 dimensions quite easily. I can put my finger back into a certain x,y,z coordinate. However, as people, we are pulled in one dimension with regards to time. Our own limitation? Maybe, dunno.

We also change along the fourth dimension, but I&#39;m not certain how to explain it.

galaxygirl
2004-May-27, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by GREAT MIND@May 16 2004, 09:40 PM
We are never going to catch up with the expansion of the universe. We would have to go at the speed of light. Even if we did get there somehow, i think we would be destroyed as we crossed the barrier because it would be into an area of no mass, time, or space. it would be going into the past and therefore going the speed of light and therefore IMPOSSIBLE.

Sam
8th grade genius

Please respond.
Your right, we never will be able to catch up with the expansion of the universe because it&#39;s now accellerating due to dark energy. Even if someone attempted to catch up with the expansion, they would have to go a lot faster than light.

But, say someone was able to catch up... I believe that there&#39;s nothing beyond the universe; no space, time, dimensions. Someone who tried to go beyond the universe would be wiped away from existance. They wouldnt just die, they would be permanently gone from the universe and every dimension because there isn&#39;t anything &#39;beyond&#39; the universe.

Rachel
9th grade non-genius ;)

John L
2004-May-27, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by QJones@May 27 2004, 04:01 PM
Dimensions are actually a measurement of change. If something can change, in some way, then a dimension (or multiple dimensions) are involved. My fingers change their x,y,z coordinates as I type, and they&#39;re changing along those dimensions. As well, though, they&#39;re changing in time.

We can operate in the 3 dimensions quite easily. I can put my finger back into a certain x,y,z coordinate. However, as people, we are pulled in one dimension with regards to time. Our own limitation? Maybe, dunno.

We also change along the fourth dimension, but I&#39;m not certain how to explain it.
Time is a measurement of change, and time is the fourth dimension. You can measure the position of your finger in the three spatial dimensions, but its movement through those dimensions is measured by the time dimension.

And I agree with GalaxyGirl. The Universe, in which we live, is all dimensions of space and time. It is everything, so there is nothing beyond it.

StarLab
2004-May-27, 11:43 PM
What if we can &#39;free&#39; ourselves from these dimensions. In other words, live within the boundaries of the universe but be so advanced with our bodies that we do not have to obey the physical laws of the universe. We could come and go at will. Also, what if it turns out that some form of &#39;information&#39; can penetrate our universe? We could manipulate this info so as to exist outside the universe&#33; :ph34r:

GOURDHEAD
2004-May-28, 01:55 AM
What if we can &#39;free&#39; ourselves from these dimensions. In other words, live within the boundaries of the universe but be so advanced with our bodies that we do not have to obey the physical laws of the universe. We could come and go at will. Also, what if it turns out that some form of &#39;information&#39; can penetrate our universe? We could manipulate this info so as to exist outside the universe&#33;

Has fantasy run amuck?

StarLab
2004-May-28, 05:01 PM
There is a difference btwn. fantasy and science fiction. Fantasy is the unreal. Science fiction is the possible yet possibly unobtainable.

jimbo
2004-May-28, 08:49 PM
what if the dark matter is not inside the universe pushing everything apart.., but on the outside pulling all matter and energy towards it ,something like an encompassed universal black hole??

antoniseb
2004-May-28, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by jimbo@May 28 2004, 08:49 PM
what if the dark matter is not inside the universe pushing everything apart.., but on the outside pulling all matter and energy towards it ,something like an encompassed universal black hole??
That might not explain why stars orbit too quickly inside galaxies, or why galaxy clusters members have as much velocity as they do, and are still bound to the cluster. Can you envision a way for your scheme to make these relatively local things happen?

John L
2004-May-28, 10:43 PM
I think he meant Dark Energy as the repulsive force inside the universe or attractive outside as opposed to Dark Matter which is attractive in the universe...

PoopyPants
2004-Jul-17, 06:30 AM
I hate to be a party pooper here but I could only get to page 9 without having to say something. Yall seem to be missing the whole point. Maybe sitting around and waxing philisophic will help somehow, but it seems to me to be similar to 2 guys sitting on a strandid island arguing and trying to figure out if the world is round or flat instead of building a boat.

Seems we should be more concerned with progressing one step from where we are then where the last step is.

...aint that a bummer

StarLab
2004-Jul-17, 05:07 PM
Yeah, good point Poopey, but who ever said we were &#39;stranded&#39; in the universe?

Mr.PoopyPants
2004-Jul-17, 07:39 PM
I sure as hell didnt

StarLab
2004-Jul-17, 09:31 PM
Yeah? Well, sometimes talking is good, whether or not we actually GET anywhere. For example, please leisurely visit the IRON SUN DISCUSSION thread. They just talk about a theory, whether or not they&#39;ll ever confirm the theory or finish their conversation is a different story. So please, have a little philosophical chat with the UT members. I&#39;m sure we&#39;ll enjoy your company, but please why don&#39;t you tell us what YOU think is beyond the universe, or at least say something that contributes to this string, because
I hate to be a party pooper here but I could only get to page 9 without having to say something. Yall seem to be missing the whole point. Maybe sitting around and waxing philisophic will help somehow, but it seems to me to be similar to 2 guys sitting on a strandid island arguing and trying to figure out if the world is round or flat instead of building a boat.
is sure as hell neither contributive nor supportive.

DippyHippy
2004-Jul-17, 11:24 PM
StarLab, it&#39;s not your place to chastise other members and/or decide the worth of topics. If you have a problem with someone&#39;s post, report it to Fraser or one of us moderators.

Tom2Mars
2004-Jul-18, 04:03 AM
StarLab, re-
but who ever said we were &#39;stranded&#39; in the universe?

Me&#33; Me&#33; Me&#33; I&#39;ve said it, I&#39;ve hinted at it, I&#39;ve added lifts to my soapbox and amped up my megaphone, and it still doesn&#39;t get through sometimes.

I&#39;m stranded and I can&#39;t wait to get out&#33; I think Poopy has it right, less talk, more boat building. Or spaceship building, or Mars Habitat building, or anything but these dumb boxes with power, water and waste treatment umbilicals weaving all over the place, tying us down.

By the way, welcome to the Forum, Mr. Poopy Pants. In a previous post, I made a reference to PooPoo Heads, obviously no relations from the sound of your first posts&#33; :P

Mr.PoopyPants
2004-Jul-18, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jul 17 2004, 02:31 PM
Yeah? Well, sometimes talking is good, whether or not we actually GET anywhere. For example, please leisurely visit the IRON SUN DISCUSSION thread. They just talk about a theory, whether or not they&#39;ll ever confirm the theory or finish their conversation is a different story. So please, have a little philosophical chat with the UT members. I&#39;m sure we&#39;ll enjoy your company, but please why don&#39;t you tell us what YOU think is beyond the universe, or at least say something that contributes to this string.
Geez, didnt mean belittle the importance of the string. My point wasn&#39;t to say that you shouldnt discuss this. Obviously it is important. I was merely pointing out that philosophy alone qets you nowhere. Sorry if my post was off topic, i know that rarely happens around here :rolleyes:

StarLab
2004-Jul-18, 08:10 PM
That&#39;s okay. Sorry for losing my temper, DH. :(

Weaselbunny
2004-Jul-20, 11:51 AM
There&#39;s never any harm in giving your opinion... as long as it&#39;s not mean or tactless. I wouldn&#39;t accuse you of either. But I would say that although physically philosophy gets you nowhere, it can be a tool to understanding. I like to understand a problem before i try to solve it. The question is What&#39;s Beyond The Universe... not how do we get there.

Building a ship and going for a bimble round the galaxy is a great suggestion, but in the absence of money, techology etc that will get us nowhere either. Postulating about the next step might make a good new thread, why don&#39;t you start one, people have loads of ideas round here, some good, some bad, some outlandish, but generally always interesting.

I look forward to reading further posts from you Mr PoopyPants (great name by the way B) )

And don&#39;t worry about Starlab... I think he&#39;s very passionate and you may have hit a raw nerve, but he&#39;s lovely really&#33;

Welcome to the forum bud :)

StarLab
2004-Jul-20, 03:56 PM
Thanx, Weasel. Oh, and I haven&#39;t said this yet, so "Welcome to the UT forums, Mr. P&#33;"
Weasel, I think starting a string on "how" to get beyond the universe is a bit far-fetched, because all we can come up with is idle speculation, for all we know we may never be able to, and we don&#39;t need to give Starship 1 (where is he, by the way?) reason to make more longer posts. Let&#39;s stick with this string. There are lots of technicalities in going from earth to the moon to going 13.6 bLY away. Too complicated to discuss, as of now.

ShadonyGibz
2004-Jul-22, 10:13 PM
ok iv asked the same question when i was like 7or8 and after coming back to it time to time iv come to the conculshion NOTHING no space no time no light its a null voide what ever has a bigiining must have an end i dont know whats more intreeging something or the existence of nonexsistence&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink:

StarLab
2004-Jul-23, 03:52 AM
Maybe this&#39;ll help you be a believer: one "definition" for our universe is anything that obeys the particular set of physical laws, some of which humans are well aware of. So this provides relief and comfort that there is stuff outside of the universe, maybe even stuff that we can possibly conceive of in our minds, but it just obeys different physical laws.
Another source of information is the proposed Ekpyrotic Universe model, in which our universe was created when two other universes had collided. Because of the assumption of preexisting, former universes other than ours, I think this theory supports the idea that there is actually in fact stuff outside of the realm of our own universe.

Guest_Mario
2005-Jun-27, 04:53 AM
My theory is that beyond the universe is simply a solid mass with tremendous gravitational force. Considering the Big Bang theory to be correct and the galaxies accelerating outward. There must be something pulling them. I believe if you got to the end of the universe you could touch it, and it would be like touching a wall. The iniverse would be like a bubble in a giant piece of foam. I can&#39;t say that there are other universes within this mass. I don&#39;t say things without evidence, but I think that it is extremely likely.

astromark
2005-Jun-27, 09:41 AM
Like a giant lump of poli-stiren foam. Your idea just posses more questions. Like, Whats it made of? where did it come from? How big is it.
How when, why?
Space is a very big place, space. The cosmos, Universe.

Guest_Mario
2005-Jun-27, 02:22 PM
There are plenty of questions. Answer one before moving on to the next is the best way to approach :)

antoniseb
2005-Jun-27, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Guest_Mario@Jun 27 2005, 02:22 PM
There are plenty of questions. Answer one before moving on to the next is the best way to approach
Hmmm. I think the parallel is more like a crossword puzzle, where you review all of the questions, and answer all the ones that are obvious first, and then use clues from those answers to make you best guess at the more subtle or ambiguous ones. You cannot let yourself get stuck on one question.

Spacemad
2005-Jun-28, 11:53 PM
I remember having read SciFi stories that speculate on this idea - one I remember had to do with "island" universes, another speculated on there being many "bubble" universes - essentially the same.

I don&#39;t think there are other universes - "outside" just doesn&#39;t exist. As we will never be able to prove - or disprove it seems just pure speculation & anyone&#39;s view is as valid as anyone else&#39;s &#33;

Guest_David
2005-Aug-18, 02:20 AM
:o what does NOTHING look like ?

astromark
2005-Aug-18, 11:13 AM
what does NOTHING look like ?

It doesent. It does not have form mater or time. When our ever exelerating universe gets to it,. It becomes space, and part of the universe. Nothing is outside the edge of the Universe. Not even time.

rahuldandekar
2005-Aug-18, 11:23 AM
Yah, nothing in our normal sense means just empty space, but this is not normal :D .

Nothing is just a word, not an idea. Here, nothing means, literally, nothing at all. Not even space. Not time. Not vacuum. Not anything&#33;

BTW, might such nothingness exist in our universe? Like, gaps?

Guest_David
2005-Aug-18, 12:26 PM
when you die . will your spirit be able to see the answer to all questions?

rahuldandekar
2005-Aug-18, 12:31 PM
David, no religious posts.

GOURDHEAD
2005-Aug-18, 12:50 PM
BTW, might such nothingness exist in our universe? Like, gaps? If there were a gap it would be other than nothing. I doubt the usefulness of this semantical dance.

Guest
2005-Aug-18, 05:04 PM
I am not religous

GOURDHEAD
2005-Aug-19, 02:45 AM
The definition of universe excludes beyondness.

cran
2005-Aug-20, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by GOURDHEAD@Aug 18 2005, 08:50 PM

BTW, might such nothingness exist in our universe? Like, gaps? If there were a gap it would be other than nothing. I doubt the usefulness of this semantical dance.
Not necessarily, G... whilst I don&#39;t subscribe to the idea, I can envisage the so-called &#39;cosmic voids&#39; as bubbles of something other than &#39;our space-time&#39; which we can define geometrically only by the structures within &#39;our space-time&#39; ... this would mean that there would be some kind of &#39;physical&#39; surface boundary within which is something (or perhaps the &#39;nothing&#39; that Rahul is wondering about) which may or may not be the source of &#39;dark energy&#39; or universal acceleration... :blink:

...besides, semantics is more fun than aerobics ;)

... but mainly, I&#39;m just messin&#39; witcha&#33; :lol:

Keith
2005-Aug-22, 12:01 PM
What would happen if you set off in a spaceship to the "edge" of the universe? You&#39;d never get there, as you would be chasing something moving at (or beyond?) the speed of light. Even in a relativistic space ship capable of approaching the speed of light.

My view is we&#39;re simply not understanding general relativity. The speed of light, time, and the expansion of the universe are intimately connected, so you can never "get out".

Basically, I think we&#39;re living in a computer model. The software has subroutines (us), and the model has mathematical rules programmed in (the laws of physics). Like all software there are bugs, which the little sub routines experience as ghosts, UFOs, parapsychology etc.

cran
2005-Aug-22, 02:32 PM
:o you mean....&#39;Matrix Regurgitated&#39;? :ph34r:

Guest
2005-Aug-31, 01:01 PM
I HAVE HEARD THIS SO MANY TIMES AND I AM STILL WONDERING WHAT IT MEANS. "THE ABSENCE OF SPACE". WHAT DOES THAT MEAN. A PERFECT VACUM? WHAT?

Guest
2005-Aug-31, 01:07 PM
IF TIME WERE INFINITE INTO THE PAST, HOW WOULD THIS PRESENT TIME HAVE ARRIVED? HOW IS IT THAT THE EXISTANCE OF ANY PRESENT TIME DOES NOT REQUIRE A BEGINNING?

Guest
2005-Aug-31, 01:15 PM
I THINK I CAN IMAGINE THE END OR EDGE OF THE UNIVERSE BEING LIKE A "WALL". IF IT IS THAT OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE THERE IS NOTHING THEN, UPON REACHING THE EDGE OF THE UNIVERSE WHATEVER METHOD OF PROPULSION YOU WERE RELYING UPON TO REACH THAT POINT WOULD, AS YOU CROSSED THAT POINT, LINE OR WHATEVER, LOOSE ITS FOUNDATION AND YOU WOULD STOP AND GO NO FURTHER AS IN HITTING A WALL.

delta
2005-Aug-31, 01:42 PM
mayby space has been made so infinate and vast and unexplainable to cover the fact that were computer sprites showing people from a far future how stupid mankinds beginnings were and soon they going to reboot the sestem (hopefully)

rahuldandekar
2005-Aug-31, 05:12 PM
Well, if we do live in a software, we cannot get out of it, so there&#39;s no meaning to such a concept. We cannot ever prove it, so we might as well neglect it. Can we ever prove it?

Well, the word "empty" can&#39;t tell us what&#39;s outside the universe, &#39;cause we interpret "empty" as "empty space". But the outside of the universe is devoid of space and time. In other, much simpler, and straighforward words, "The outside of the universe doesn&#39;t exist".

suntrack2
2005-Sep-02, 12:39 PM
this question is very good, i left myself by combing my head by the fingers that what will there beyond this universe? another universe? different universe? no universe? shadow of this universe ? or the first universe was just like a tennis ball in this giant gap ?

Guest
2005-Sep-02, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by rahuldandekar@Aug 31 2005, 05:12 PM
"The outside of the universe doesn&#39;t exist".
That implies an infinite universe, IMO. Which (also IMO) is an absurd concept.

If someone can elucidate for me how we can have a FINITE universe with NOTHING "outside", please go ahead&#33;

Face it, our universe is fundamentally insane. It&#39;s quite disturbing. :(

rahuldandekar
2005-Sep-03, 02:12 AM
It does not imply an infinite universe. Remember the sphere analogy? the 2D beings on it&#39;s surface cannot venture "outside", but they don&#39;t live in an infinite universe. So, no outside does not imply infinity.

Guest
2005-Sep-03, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by rahuldandekar@Sep 3 2005, 02:12 AM
It does not imply an infinite universe. Remember the sphere analogy? the 2D beings on it&#39;s surface cannot venture "outside", but they don&#39;t live in an infinite universe. So, no outside does not imply infinity.
I was under the assumption that the old "sphere analogy" went out the window with the discovery that the universe is FLAT?? What am I missing here?

casinni-fanatic
2005-Sep-03, 10:56 AM
As mentioned, a few hundred years ago, we didnít know that the earth was round, and only a small percentage of things that we as humans have been able to comprehend so far. While oneís imagination is infinite, what we cannot comprehend about the universe, its origin, end and limits is also infinite. And that infinity can only be defined as ...

m13_higgs
2005-Sep-04, 07:51 PM
While oneís imagination is infinite, what we cannot comprehend about the universe, its origin, end and limits is also infinite. And that infinity can only be defined as ...

Throughout the ages, what we didn't understand has been described as ... Now, some people might believe that what we don't know concerning the moment of the big bang indicates ... But, historically speaking, who is to say that we won't solve this mystery in a few decades or centuries, and it will no longer be necessary to invoke ...?

Jorge
2005-Sep-04, 09:04 PM
Say if i put my hand outside the boundry of the univers (if there is one), will it just disapear and be be gone for ever?, will i be suck in with my hand? or just remain handless?

ok anothing i thouhg of while boring car rides.
The universe is some kind of partical (for example and electtron) moving around and atom (or something else) and that would make another univers but just where everything is larger. This could also mean that we oursleve are made of billions of universes!

lol that last bit was my 12y old imagination

Mosheh Thezion
2005-Sep-04, 10:10 PM
We cannot know anything about what is outside our universe, but we can contemplate it along the lines of the source of applied energy in creation which i discuss in my proposal for a unifying field theory..
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=544864#post544864

We can then say a few simple things about what is outside our space.

We can call it the God plane.. as the place where a God may exist, or that the plane is itself God..?

That in conjunction with out 3.14 universe.. we may exist as part of a Multiverse, where in each universe is distinguishable from each other by the values used in their creation.. namely pi.

As if we change the value of pi, we have changed the very fabic of space itself.. which of course we cannot do.. we cannot, not in this universe.
But other universes may thus exist with these fundamental differences, and as such may form a kind of scaled progression if you will.

As is discussed in Metaphysical circles, as planes of existance, with each higher level being on a sub and stellar cosmic levels, improved from the last.

But like i said.. its all conjecture, and is only fun to discuss at this point in our science.

-MT

projectorion
2005-Sep-04, 11:58 PM
Do you really want to know.

I'll tell you.

Beyond this universe is another. Beyond that another. Beyond that another. How many universes are there? Nobody knows but it's universes all the way down.

antoniseb
2005-Sep-05, 12:35 AM
How many universes are there? Nobody knows

Right, In fact, it COULD be only one.

johninf
2005-Sep-06, 01:55 PM
The universe is infinte always was is now and always will be.
It had no begginnning.

prombi2x
2005-Sep-07, 04:41 AM
But where did the matter OR the energy come from to begin with?

johninf
2005-Sep-07, 12:26 PM
You must accept that the big bang never happened.
And that the univeres is infinite.
Stars and galaxies go on forever.

antoniseb
2005-Sep-07, 02:54 PM
You must accept that the big bang never happened.
And that the univeres is infinite.
Stars and galaxies go on forever.

Johninf, please confine your Alternative Ideas to the "Against The Mainstream (ATM) Section of this forum.

theEnd
2005-Sep-08, 04:48 AM
Thought i would share my uneducated two cents.

why bind dimensions to a shape with a boundary? I think that calling it a universe is somehow misleading. I don't believe that the universe is like a puddle of water, something that you can see and point to and say "ha here's the universe!" Where outside of it is nothingness. What if the same physics and forces still apply no mater where you are. You don't just run out of x, y ,z and time. Why should they end? Vacuum is nothingness and yet its not the end.

Of course there may be huge amounts of energy left over from the big bang. This energy "cooling" still somehow turning to mater traveling at a high rate of speed, and would explain why our universe is still expanding? :D

alexian
2005-Nov-19, 12:45 AM
"My way of thought is abstract and three dimensional,'' I tend to see the world around us in different perspectives and endless possibilities"


If you can't understand my theories; please do not insult."For only insults demis and demoralize you "the individual";furthermore it catergorizes the individual or" individuals," as narrow minded and fearful entities, not wanting to see pass the truth and their own narrow minds, it is good to be objective instead of subject; "this holds truth," but when insults are given with narrow mind set established this may proof harmful to oneself and the human race." Novemeber 18, 2005

Alex E. Campain

Elyk
2005-Nov-21, 06:08 PM
The universe is made up of space and time. They are a part of the universe. Beyond the universe, space-time ends. There is no space, no time. So, if we wanted to go outside the universe, we wouldn't be able to, as there is nothing outside it. The u8niverse is everything there is.
The universe probably expands dynamically, to whatever size it needs. There would be nothing outside it, but what's holding us in is the question I'm wondering...Wonder if there is actually some sort of boundary or an end to all of it, it can't go on forever because it could always be one inch bigger than it already is. Forever means it does not end but it has to because nothing goes on forever, so I wonder what it would be like at the edge of the universe..Anyone know something about this sort of thing?

Kaptain K
2005-Nov-21, 06:19 PM
There is no "edge of the universe", just as there is no "edge of the Earth" that the medieval sailers were afraid of falling off of.

Blob
2005-Nov-21, 06:53 PM
Hum,
indeed that is the normal view - there is no `outside`.
However, there may be an `edge`.
If any medieval sailors where to venture beyond the `edge`, they would not be able to tell us (they would have left our universe).




( there will always be people who believe the universe is flat.)

Dragon Star
2005-Nov-21, 11:10 PM
I have a related question, I understand that the rule is that matter can not be created nor destroyed. Why is this not automatically thrown out the window? Before anything, there was "nothing", so how does this work? It doesn't, so why do we use the rule?

What if matter can be created, but not destroyed. Would this not be a better way of saying this?

neilzero
2005-Nov-21, 11:38 PM
Likely some of what we think we know about the Universe is wrong. Likely there are more galaxies beyond the viable Universe that are receding from us faster than light speed. Many experts feel the Universe has a radius of perhaps 50 light years which is about 3.6 times as far as we can see. Neil

neilzero
2005-Nov-21, 11:45 PM
Hi Dragon Star: Matter can be neither created nor distroyed is an old idea. We now know that matter can become energy and energy can become matter. Big bang fans would argue that the tiny cosmic egg contained all the present matter and energy in some form. Neil

Dragon Star
2005-Nov-22, 12:23 AM
Hi Dragon Star: Matter can be neither created nor destroyed is an old idea. We now know that matter can become energy and energy can become matter. Big bang fans would argue that the tiny cosmic egg contained all the present matter and energy in some form. Neil

Hi Neil,

I understand what your talking about, but I guess I was talking about how it all came to one point(or started in one point), all the matter and energy in a singularity, and thats just how it is just seems weird. Something had to create the matter and energy, and big bang just doesn't explain enough, something is missing. It could be my brain though....:razz:

Blob
2005-Nov-22, 12:44 AM
Hum,
The big bang basically does explain where it all the matter came from.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=631

My view is that Energy/matter is just the interactions of dimensions.
This is balanced out with other things like space/time so that the sum of the universe is zero.

Ken G
2005-Nov-22, 11:16 AM
Matter can be neither created nor distroyed is an old idea. We now know that matter can become energy and energy can become matter. Big bang fans would argue that the tiny cosmic egg contained all the present matter and energy in some form.
Actually, I don't think they would make this claim, as it seems to indicate a belief that the total energy of the universe, or even a large chunk of the universe, is constant. That is pretty much true for the rest energy of normal matter, but it's not true for photons. Early in the universe, and here I'm talking about long after all the matter had been created, photon energy still dominated by far over matter energy, but that is no longer true by a long shot. Where did all that photon energy go? Poof, energy is not conserved globally in the Big Bang model. This is not viewed as a big problem, as a lot of things get funky in general relativity over large scales.

Dark Jaguar
2005-Nov-22, 04:04 PM
Seems a little odd to speculate on what is "outside" the universe, because last I checked the universe, by definition, is "all that is". We may find some "higher astral plane" outside the known universe, but since the universe is defined as what it is, that part would ALSO be part of the universe. So, semantically speaking, isn't it accurate to say there really IS nothing beyond the universe?

However, semantics aside, looks like it's all just about finding something beyond this little space/time bubble. Yeah, good luck with that. Seems a bit off to speculate with absolutely no reasonable place to start...

Oh, about that "things inside of things" metaphor, with the computer in a room inside a building etc? Well, what exactly does that mean? It takes a mind to discern where one thing "ends" and another "begins". That moniter is only a discrete thing because we have defined it as such. We could very well have defined it as half of the original defintion (cut the moniter in half in your mind) plus 3 feet off to the left of it. You can cut up the universe in about a billion different ways and apply definitions to it, it's just that our current definitions are the most useful. Look at the universe as a collective whole and that little thought experiment sort of falls apart, doesn't it? Point is, the universe as in the only physical reality we have actually been able to observe can stand on it's own just fine. Any discreteness we do from there is a mental excercize of making things easier to understand. Defining things is a useful mental tool, but the fact that we CAN say the moniter as a discreet item is inside this building in no way should trick us into thinking that must represent some greater truth of infinite layers.

Dragon Star
2005-Nov-23, 04:11 AM
I have a question, if you were to go outside the universe, and turned a flashlight on, how would the light react? Just kinda curious as to how it works. I know the same laws may not apply, but what if they did? The first light in this universe shot in all directions, So what would happen if you were to go outside the universe and turn on a "beam" of light?

If this is a stupid question just don't reply.

LurchGS
2005-Nov-23, 04:38 AM
Likely some of what we think we know about the Universe is wrong. Likely there are more galaxies beyond the viable Universe that are receding from us faster than light speed. Many experts feel the Universe has a radius of perhaps 50 light years which is about 3.6 times as far as we can see. Neil

50 light years? that's not even an appreciable portion of the distance across this galaxy, much less the universe.

So far, Hubble and some gound-based adaptive optic telescopes have seen out to around 15 BILLION light years - give or take. The light they're collecting was emitted right after the big bang - and it's gone a long way to resolve some questions (like Quasars)

Dragon Star - how light would behave outside our universe would depend on the natural laws in whatever Universe you were currently inhabiting. Since we cannot even guess at what's inside any of whatever problematical universes out there. It's postulating in the face of insufficient data.

Dark Jaguar - the label 'Universe' was applied well before the math existed to suggest the possibility of others like it (or unlike it). This would not be the first time humans kept an inappropriate name.

Dark Jaguar
2005-Nov-23, 06:42 PM
Once we get to such high numbers as BILLIONS of light years, I think we need a few new units... Perhaps light decades, light centuries, light millenium?

Elyk
2005-Nov-28, 11:12 AM
Hi Neil,

I understand what your talking about, but I guess I was talking about how it all came to one point(or started in one point), all the matter and energy in a singularity, and thats just how it is just seems weird. Something had to create the matter and energy, and big bang just doesn't explain enough, something is missing. It could be my brain though....:razz:
You're right about that, it had to of come from something. Something cannot come from nothing...and everything around us is something. We just don't (and probably never will) know where it came from or how it's here.

Kaptain K
2005-Nov-28, 08:31 PM
Something cannot come from nothing...
Conjecture!

Jorge
2005-Nov-28, 11:31 PM
Something cannot come from nothing...
Conjecture!

but whre did the nothing come from?

Same as saying there is nothing outside the univers...
Sin't nothing something? since we can call it nothing?

:think: now my head feels like i've been :wall: for 1 hour

Dragon Star
2005-Nov-28, 11:41 PM
Something cannot come from nothing...

I have heard some interesting theories about bubbles appearing from absolute nothing (although it doesn't make sense) anyone else care to backup how this is possible?

EDIT:! Ha ha! Found one of the places I read this, http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/origins/inflation/index.shtml

Can someone explain this? Energy from nothing? I don't get it....

Elyk
2005-Nov-30, 05:11 PM
but whre did the nothing come from?

Same as saying there is nothing outside the univers...
Sin't nothing something? since we can call it nothing?

:think: now my head feels like i've been :wall: for 1 hour
I guess that's where a god comes in...or something like that.

Wolverine
2005-Nov-30, 05:31 PM
But not on this forum, keeping in accordance with the rules enumerated in the FAQ. Arguments from incredulity don't fly, regardless.

hewhocaves
2005-Nov-30, 05:55 PM
I have a question, if you were to go outside the universe, and turned a flashlight on, how would the light react? Just kinda curious as to how it works. I know the same laws may not apply, but what if they did? The first light in this universe shot in all directions, So what would happen if you were to go outside the universe and turn on a "beam" of light?

If this is a stupid question just don't reply.

among other problems with the question (not that it's not a valid one), you have the argument that if a flashlight worked the same way, then how would you know that you're even outside of the universe?

an interesting twist might be that something like turning on a flashlight might be proof that you are still within the universe. (of course the converse would not be true as there are many reasons why you might not be able to turn on a flashlight).

As for the larger question, we're not equipped at all to even guess at what is 'out there'. An analogy i like to use is: what if the entire universe was simply a computer program? Would we, as routines within the program be able to comprehend that we are in a program? could we even grasp the concept of a program? and as for occupying physical space, physical space might not even exist outside the program as we think of it within the program! Furthermore, consider how a program is stored on your computer - (think of a game like 'the sims' or 'world of warcraft'. The main code is probably in one place (unless you really need to defrag, in which case even that might be split up) whereas your saved files might be elsewhere! your universe isn't even contiguous, but from your perspective, it is! (and im not even going to get into the idea of a server, like in WoW).

Point is, our perspectives are probably worthless and a hinderance when we consider the extrauniversal idea.

(and I'm sure my above analogy has already been made into a novel - probably a bad one at that)

John

Dragon Star
2005-Dec-01, 11:13 PM
among other problems with the question (not that it's not a valid one), you have the argument that if a flashlight worked the same way, then how would you know that you're even outside of the universe?

an interesting twist might be that something like turning on a flashlight might be proof that you are still within the universe. (of course the converse would not be true as there are many reasons why you might not be able to turn on a flashlight).

As for the larger question, we're not equipped at all to even guess at what is 'out there'. An analogy i like to use is: what if the entire universe was simply a computer program? Would we, as routines within the program be able to comprehend that we are in a program? could we even grasp the concept of a program? and as for occupying physical space, physical space might not even exist outside the program as we think of it within the program! Furthermore, consider how a program is stored on your computer - (think of a game like 'the sims' or 'world of warcraft'. The main code is probably in one place (unless you really need to defrag, in which case even that might be split up) whereas your saved files might be elsewhere! your universe isn't even contiguous, but from your perspective, it is! (and im not even going to get into the idea of a server, like in WoW).

Point is, our perspectives are probably worthless and a hinderance when we consider the extrauniversal idea.

(and I'm sure my above analogy has already been made into a novel - probably a bad one at that)

John

Oh, sorry guys, what I meant to say is if you were to go outside our "Visible Universe", better then a flashlight, a light-bulb(get more directions for the light), would the new light illuminate things from that point in all directions that the light was sent? Or as soon as you turned the light-bulb off, would everything be perfectly black again? What effects does it have? (the reason I ask is because I don't know much about light, and wanted to know how it works in universal proportions as to how it illuminates everything) Thanks in advance guys!

DuPz0r
2006-Jan-30, 02:24 AM
I've had alot of fun reading this. And i realized this topic was started almost 2 years ago O_o, that does show you how quick our lifes go by.

Anyway i've thought about what people have said alot, and i cant make my mind up on wether infinite or finite seems realistic beyond our universe.
Its hard for me to explain, im sure someone else could explain it better.
But i believe there must be something beyond the universe.
Every action has a reaction, and our universe was a reaction caused by an action outside of what we live in.
So i guess that means there is NOT "nothing" beyond our universe. But that still loops us back to question of what IS beyond our universe.....
When people say whats beyond the universe,they automaticly try to create a mental picture of it.
Something is out there, but it may not look like anything we know, but it could still be there, and we wouldnt understand it.
But it would be made of something.... do you get what im saying?

Dragon Star
2006-Jan-30, 02:49 AM
Point is, we can and, will never know...although it is a interesting topic, I think just about all that can be said about it has been said.

Ken G
2006-Jan-31, 02:57 PM
Yes, it's what can be called metaphysics, rather than science. You can use science to inform your metaphysics, but it still isn't science. Sometimes the line gets blurred, but not when you are talking about outside the universe, which becomes inside the universe as soon as you know anything about it. And welcome to the forum DuPz0r!

raidersrk9
2006-Feb-28, 07:07 AM
i know this may be extremely random but while i was thinking about whats beyond "beyond" i realized that you can not define anything really.....
a soccar ball is a round sphere........a round sphere is a 3-d circle......a 3-d circle is a round sphere which it is in such like a boomerang.....it starts with a million things, soccerball;baseball;anything round....then to a round sphere.....then a round sphere is a 3-d circle.......but what is a 3-d circle and what is that......since there is no complete answer i believe that it just hits the "wall" and bounces back.....i believe the same reasoning applies to our universe.........

WHITE_HOLE
2006-Feb-28, 09:44 PM
Since there is no limit as to how big something can be (I think), I always think that our universe is actually a proton or neutron of some sort probably part of a "dog's flea", in another universe... Funny idea though..

Dragon Star
2006-Feb-28, 09:57 PM
Point is, we can and, will never know...although it is a interesting topic, I think just about all that can be said about it has been said.

lol, change the CAN to CAN'T, never re-read that when I posted it.

Honestly guys, this thread has totally run it's course, it's time to let it die.

If you have questions, I suggest you make a thread asking about your specific question.

epenguin
2006-Mar-04, 03:13 AM
the universe is a decorative cat collar..... ;)

In science answers lead to a deeper questions.
What happened to the cat?

Hurricane
2006-Mar-04, 10:24 PM
I have this sneaking suspicion one of the new dimentions of string theory is where at every planck level there's a link to our largest level universe. Maybe we're in a mobius shape where two trips through would be needed to complete the journey. This multi-faceted torus idea best soothes my finite-infinite question - it's both. Okay, I've let the cat out of the bag; when do I pickup my Nobel Prize? LOL ;-)

epenguin
2006-Mar-05, 07:30 PM
I have this sneaking suspicion one of the new dimentions of string theory is where at every planck level there's a link to our largest level universe. Maybe we're in a mobius shape where two trips through would be needed to complete the journey. This multi-faceted torus idea best soothes my finite-infinite question - it's both. Okay, I've let the cat out of the bag; when do I pickup my Nobel Prize? LOL ;-)

Ah that's where the cat went.

raven66z0r
2006-Aug-05, 06:14 AM
I'm a simpleton(yr10 schooling) and my vocabulary isnt very good, but I'll try to project what I've "imagined" is outside the universe.

With the big bang theory in-mind, I believe there are layers and layers, each layer containing a subatomic 'independant' particle. self sustained and always moving towards the gavitational pull of our universe. At the end of each layer the 2 particles combine and a reaction occurs(this cycle continues gaining more particles until it becomes visible matter). and I've come to think that outside these layers is pure white/energy (for some reason).

but yeah, its just an un-educated opinion. no flaming please :)