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Matthew
2003-Oct-14, 07:31 AM
The Reloaded DVD came out today, and the final movie is coming out next month. So what is the Matrix?

Dan Luna
2003-Oct-14, 11:37 AM
Well, there could be any number of explanations, but if you're stuck in something like that, then for you it's "reality". :(

DippyHippy
2003-Oct-15, 02:34 AM
I still say the "real world" is a part of the Matrix...

The real world being part of the Matrix is the only explanation for the following:

1) Neo coming back from the dead in the first film
2) Agent Smith entering the body of a human in the Matrix and then being able to cross over into the real world
3) Zion was destroyed *five* times by *five* previous incarnations of Neo
4) In fact, explain the five previous incarnations of Neo - the Architect said Neo was an anomaly formed by the "remainders" from equations for free choice amongst the inhabitants of the Matrix - how can someone formed by the Matrix exist in the real world?
5) Neo brought Trinity back from the dead in the Matrix - she was already dead in the real world and yet she came back to life there too -just as Neo did in the first one

and finally (for now)

6) Neo stopped the robotic probes in the real world by using his powers - how? He's a human... he might be "the one" in the Matrix, but in the real world, he's no different from anyone else...

:o

BTW those of you who are wondering about "the kid" that follows Neo around in The Matrix Reloaded might want to watch "Kid's Story" in the Animatrix...

I read somewhere that somebody once wrote a book or short story whereby the entire world as we know was merely a computer generated simulation, maintained by 3 (or 5) humans, hooked up to a machine... I think the story went that they were the last human survivors of an ancient civilisation and that their computer generated fantasy was a way of preserving the memory of mankind. In this way, there were power struggles between the 3 (or 5) humans - so in this sense, you might have that group in the true reality, fantasising about a war on Earth. In this scenario, 2 of the humans might be playing the part of the machines whereas the other might be playing the part of the humans... and in their fantasy, the 2 humans (playing the Machines) might have fantasised about overcoming the remaining humans and placing them in the Matrix... a shell within a shell...

...does any of that make sense??? LOL :blink:

Fraser
2003-Oct-15, 06:41 AM
I'm going to be a little disappointed if it's just a Matrix within a Matrix within a ... etc. That's the cheap cop-out, so I'm expecting a better solution than that.

Matthew
2003-Oct-15, 09:01 AM
Fraser, I think we're all expecting more than just the Matrix in a Matrix solution. There could be a Matrix in a Matrix, but that may only be a part of the story.

Kid's Story was good, especially since I understood who the kid was, unlike many of my friends.

DippyHippy
2003-Oct-15, 06:56 PM
If it *is* a Matrix within a Matrix, then it would depend on how well they did it and more specifically, how the real real world is portrayed. To be honest though, I can't see how else the points I've mentioned can be explained.

Anyway... in just a few more weeks, we'll find out...

Matthew
2003-Oct-16, 09:35 AM
Just a few more. Pity its coming out at 1 AM here, I was going to go, but its a bit early. Ah, I'll go see it the next afternoon. I'll be behind, but at least I'll be able to concentrate (which you need to be able to do in the matrix)! :P

DippyHippy
2003-Oct-20, 03:12 AM
Yes, I heard they're releasing it at exactly the same time, worldwide...

RE being tired... I was falling asleep during the second one and didn't enjoy it at all LOL It was much better the second time, when I was actually awake...

cygonaut
2003-Oct-23, 09:45 AM
DippyHippy,

That was excellent - your speculation about what it all might be about.

Made me think.

Clearly, if the mythological/fantasy parts you've outlined are not satisfactorily addressed in #3, many seriously sci-fi people such as myself will be disappointed.

On the other hand, they could always leave a lot unanswered to give the "sense of wonder" that appeals to many of us.

I would like to see the things you pointed out answered though and think you might be on the right track - could be a shell within a shell.

kashi
2003-Oct-23, 11:54 PM
http://www.simulation-argument.com/

A list of arguments for why we may/may not be living in a Matrix.

kashi
2003-Oct-23, 11:56 PM
when I first saw the movie, I thought it was a matrix within a matrix. I think it'll either be that or a religious ending (i.e. Neo is the Messiah or something).

Matthew
2003-Oct-26, 03:39 AM
Go to The Matrix: Revolutions (http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/). Its the official site and has a nifty counter counting down till the worldwide release.

(At the time of writting) we have only 9 days, 21 hours, 21 minutes till its released! :D

DippyHippy
2003-Oct-28, 04:35 AM
cygonaut, thanks for the comments... although I thought of the Matrix within a Matrix idea myself, I'm not the only one who's thought of it.

As for the idea that *everything* is merely the mental projection of a small group of individuals preserving the memory of the human race... I'm not sure where I read that but apparently that was the basis of a book or a short story. When I heard of the idea, it certainly caught my imagination.

I wouldn't be surprised if they go with something like that. I agree that just a matrix within a matrix would be a bit of a let down on it's own - they would need to have some sort of "wow!" factor but I'm afraid it would probably bewilder some in the same way The Architect managed to confuse half the audience. It gets clearer after a few viewings, but you don't want your audience to stumble out of the theatre scratching their heads and mumbling "what the **** was that about??!!"

Kash, if they claim Neo truly is some sort of religious Jesus figure, I will be very disappointed... not to mention incredulous.

They've already done that though with all that "the One" stuff and the ridiculous idea that he can bring himself and Trinity back to life. Again, I stand by my idea that the only *plausible* way he can do that is if the "real world" is simply another Matrix...

Matthew
2003-Oct-28, 06:22 AM
I don't think the architect confused half the audience, I think he cofused all of the audience.

Has anyone seen the trailers? The theatrical trailer is amazing. I suggest that you see it. To see the Matrix: Revolutions Trailer, click here. (http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/)

Dan Luna
2003-Oct-28, 05:08 PM
The reason Neo can do all that weird stuff is that he's a character in a film.

ExarKun
2003-Oct-28, 08:18 PM
I sort of took a different twist on how to interpret the special abilities and his ability to reject death.

I believe in the first one where he came back from death, it was actually his mind rejected the "belief" imposed upon him by the matrix that his body took enough damage to die. By rejecting it he did not actually suffer the pain or the damage. Remember everything is just electrical impulses. He sort of went into a stop time and decided to reject those impulses.

Another interpretation of his ability to stop the machines is that his heightened senses of being awoken in the matrix has let him expand his mental capabilities (ie something like ESP)... haven't quite decided how to work that one out yet. When he saved trinity he did the same thing as when he saved himself. He hacked into the impulse flow to her and discarded the impulses telling her she had died.

Its sort of like what a friend told me about police work. Someone that is very high on drugs can keep attacking even after being dead. (ie 3 shots to the heart) Until the brain has to register that there is a change in process it does _YET_ realize that it is dead so they continue to attack. (a little gruesome but it gets the point across) That is whey they were pushing for higher caliber guns, it knocks them on their butt. When the brain tells them to stand back up _THEN_ it realizes they are dead.

Anyone else got any other theories?

Polly V
2003-Oct-29, 03:02 AM
It's being well hyped here, mainly because they filmed the 2nd & 3rd movie here in Alameda.
The island residents (me included) would bicycle down to the old naval station where they built the freeway and try to see what was going on. The movie folks were actually very nice to their nosey neighbors, and didn't mind us cycling around the areas, but then you really couldn't see much. They had very high walls around the sets. (In the 2nd movie, only one shot do you actually see the SF skyline.)

I have to admit I understood the architect much better the second time around. But unfortuanely I don't have high hopes the 3rd movie. I hope I'm wrong, but sequels don't usually live up to most expectations.

As for Neo, since this is several incarnations of Zion, and they allow "the one" to repopulate and start the cycle over again. Maybe he's a mutation, (its a long shot to be sure) and possibly too easy of an answer. So as these cycles goes on he is better adapted at handling the matrix.
I don't know :blink:

my 2c

Fraser
2003-Oct-29, 04:28 PM
The advance buzz about the movie seems to be positive. Apparantely they successfully avoided the concept of a matrix within a matrix quite elegantly. I'm pretty excited now.

DippyHippy
2003-Oct-30, 05:51 AM
ExarKun, I understand your idea about how Neo could stop the machines - and I think that's plausible and it doesn't necessarily have to have religious overtones either. I do believe there are some weird and freaky occurences with regards to ESP etc but I also believe there's a reasonable and rational explanation for everything.

I have to say though, that although I can see your thinking re Neo's death in the first film, the fact remains that he actually *died* in the real world too, not just in the Matrix. If he'd just died in the Matrix then I'd say yeah, you're right, but he flatlined in the real world...

Something else I thought of was that Neo was actually a rogue program, planted by the Machines, and designed, like a virus, to somehow infiltrate Zion and lead the Machines to the human city... but truthfully, I haven't really given that much thought and since it's nearly 6am and I've been working all night, I'm in no frame of mind to give it much thought now! LOL

ExarKun
2003-Nov-20, 01:56 PM
Although it appeared that Neo had died I'm guessing he sort of went into a suspended animation where time sort of slowed down for him. That is when he was struggling to cut off the flow of information... maybe he cut off too much its hard to say. Having now watched the 3rd movie it seems like a lot of what I had thought in my mind ended up how the movie turned out. When I posted I was still in the initial thinking of how things were in the movie..

peterhuybregts
2003-Nov-22, 03:24 PM
Isn't our world & all we know dominated by manners & religious nonsense throughout the time
Isn't our subconcious mind bigger than our concious mind & capable to controll us in it'sa own world
Do not the dead live in a world that is casted aroudn them & wich birth only can free them from.

Isn't all we know just information floating through the sky for us to pick up and understand.

The Matrix is this world captive in this solare system & the only way to escape it is to reach for a fruitfull world out of this solarsystem trhough the right dimention (the phone). Has anyone seen the both lawnmowerman films. The subject gets to live within a dimentional world linked to every informationnet on earth.

we have : a whole lot of computers logged into a worldwidenetwork functioning

or we have a lot of people wich are subconciously logged into a (universal) collective mind (mainfraime) wich does the thinking for us & sends a messiahlike character everytime we need it. (read Freud/Jung).

wich of these would you like to call the matrix.

Before the film existed I already knew everything in it and I even know solutions to things the movie can't answer.

O yeah, why was Neo capable to take out the machines although he was in the real world.

He learned that his mindpowers were a part of himself & not a part of the Matrix.
(see the fight he has with Morpheus in the first movie)

I'll tell you this : everything in the matrix will come true, yet you must see the movie as a (collective) dream perecpted by the right inspired person & that the truth is bigger than the dreamer or his word/movie.

Peter Pan

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-22, 09:45 PM
Ah but that's the problem... I don't buy all this "magical powers in the real world" nonsense... it's a real cop out. If they're going to do something that can't be done in the real world, then they have to justify it and explain it

Cambo
2003-Nov-25, 10:56 PM
I'm with you Dippy.
Saw the 3rd movie a couple of days ago.
The ending was different to what I had expected but some visual elements eg the 'golden streams of energy' just don't fit. It is too similar to the 'green' numbers that make up the programme aspect of the Matrix as seen by Neo and the operators in the real world. This 'golden energy' is also used when Neo 'sees' the Oracle and her guard. (It's difficult to comment without spoiling it for others as I edit and re-edit)
It really is a 2 chapter movie cut into 3 which is unfortunate; but that is the vageries of fiction and more so si fi.
Overall the trilogy is good entertainment and a few hours away from our reality. Really what else do we go to the movies for?

Josh
2003-Nov-25, 11:49 PM
They should have stopped after nuymber one. The second two were ... c r a p !!

Just turned into a big love story with no real plot. should have left Trinity dead. that would have made the third better. Granted some of the scenes were impressive but the story and ending was a big cop out.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-29, 12:21 AM
Actually, I had a "debate" with someone when the second one came out because I said that lovemaking scene between Neo and Trinity was a complete waste of time... and I still say that. You don't need to see them at it to know they're lovers...

I'm not a prude (no, really, I'm not :lol:) - I don't mind a sex scene if there's a point to it, but that was pretty pointless... it didn't do anything for the plot or for character development...

Sorry, having just re-read my previous comments here, I must seem like a miserable bugger when it comes to movies LOL

Josh
2003-Nov-29, 10:13 AM
Exactly .. they went all hollywood and gratuitous.

kashi
2003-Dec-19, 11:51 AM
I finally saw it yesterday. I agree with Josh, they should have stopped after number 1.

Chook
2003-Dec-19, 07:16 PM
Duh …. I still don't understand what "2001 Space Odyssey" was all about!?
As for Matrix ^&#*(@_(*&$ :blink:
(Time for breakfast and some nice Cornflakes) peck peck peck .....

damienpaul
2003-Dec-23, 08:15 AM
and of course, theres Agent Smith ability to 'clone'

Faulkner
2003-Dec-23, 08:35 AM
Duh . I still don't understand what "2001 Space Odyssey" was all about!?

Read the book, Chook. It makes perfect sense. The film was directed by Kubrick - what else can you expect from him except illogical gibberish?? (Great filmmaker, tho'!)...ha...THE SHINING...LOLITA...CLOCKWORK ORANGE...FULL METAL JACKET...SPARTACUS...etc etc...

By the way, Chook, you're a "chicken" coz you don't like ice-cold VBs!!! B)

damienpaul
2003-Dec-23, 08:41 AM
hmmmm bizzarre thought - quantum corn flakes in the matrix - it tatses like chicken cause it is not really there.... :wacko: