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David Hall
2002-Sep-17, 01:36 PM
It seems the contractor and basic design for the NGST has finally been chosen. Now they can get down to the details of actually building it.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/806090.asp?cp1=1

http://nytimes.com/2002/09/17/science/space/17TELE.html (registration required)

The articles say the mirror has been shrunk from 26 feet to 20 feet in diameter (What, not in meters?), but that it still should be powerful enough to image things 100 times fainter than the HST in visible light and 400 times fainter in infrared.

They also seem to be focused on avoiding the kind of manufacturing goof-ups that they've had in the past. And since the telescope will be non-serviceable, they will build the critical systems to last longer.

I can't wait to see what kind of images we'll get with it. If Hubble made our mouths water, just imagine what this one will do. But can we hold out until 2010?

Firefox
2002-Sep-17, 04:12 PM
One of the few gripes I'd have is the choice in names. It seems this one is more politically motivated than the naming of the HST.

I suppose the 20-foot dimension was for the benefit of us Americans and our silly standard measurement system. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


-Adam

Kaptain K
2002-Sep-17, 05:03 PM
On 2002-09-17 12:12, Firefox wrote:
One of the few gripes I'd have is the choice in names. It seems this one is more politically motivated than the naming of the HST.
I would say it's more financially motivated. Management holds the purse strings. If naming the scope after one of their own is what it takes, it is a small price to pay to get it funded. Also, as I read the NYT article, the astronomers have no beef with the name.


I suppose the 20-foot dimension was for the benefit of us Americans and our silly standard measurement system.
So, call it a six meter scope if that makes you happy. At least they didn't call it a "240 inch" /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

_________________
Be alert! The world needs more lerts.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-09-17 13:05 ]</font>

traztx
2002-Sep-17, 05:17 PM
On 2002-09-17 13:03, Kaptain K wrote:

I suppose the 20-foot dimension was for the benefit of us Americans and our silly standard measurement system.
So, call it a six meter scope if that makes you happy. At least they didn't call it a "240 inch" /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


That gave me a flashback to an old Bill Cosby skit about Noah and the Ark. God goes through this lengthy explanation of the ark's design and dimensions. After all the details, Noah just looks dumbly at God and goes "What's a cubit?"

You have to hear Cosby do it to get the full effect /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

aurorae
2002-Sep-17, 06:31 PM
On 2002-09-17 09:36, David Hall wrote:
And since the telescope will be non-serviceable, they will build the critical systems to last longer.


I've got a nickel that says that sometime during the life of the new scope, there will need to be a servicing mission. Anyone want to take the bet?

The Shade
2002-Sep-17, 06:42 PM
On 2002-09-17 14:31, aurorae wrote:


On 2002-09-17 09:36, David Hall wrote:
And since the telescope will be non-serviceable, they will build the critical systems to last longer.


I've got a nickel that says that sometime during the life of the new scope, there will need to be a servicing mission. Anyone want to take the bet?




No kidding. Not serviceable? Why does that make me cringe?

I can already see it:

Senior technician: Alright, the inaugural photo went well, time for photo #2.

Junior technician: Sir, we have a malfunction with the telescope.

Senior technician: D'oh!

Rich
2002-Sep-17, 06:43 PM
On 2002-09-17 14:31, aurorae wrote:

I've got a nickel that says that sometime during the life of the new scope, there will need to be a servicing mission. Anyone want to take the bet?


That should be interesting since they're putting it out at L1. That would be one heck of a shuttle mission!

xriso
2002-Sep-17, 06:58 PM
On 2002-09-17 14:43, Rich wrote:


On 2002-09-17 14:31, aurorae wrote:

I've got a nickel that says that sometime during the life of the new scope, there will need to be a servicing mission. Anyone want to take the bet?


That should be interesting since they're putting it out at L1. That would be one heck of a shuttle mission!


In fact, that would be the furthest from Earth a human has ever been, wouldn't it?

Russ
2002-Sep-17, 07:03 PM
On 2002-09-17 13:17, traztx wrote:
That gave me a flashback to an old Bill Cosby skit about Noah and the Ark. God goes through this lengthy explanation of the ark's design and dimensions. After all the details, Noah just looks dumbly at God and goes "What's a cubit?"

You have to hear Cosby do it to get the full effect /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


"Bill Cosby Is A Very Funny Fellow, RIGHT" I still have the record album from about '64. I listened to that track so many times I could quote the whole thing from memory. A wonderfully funny skit! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Hale_Bopp
2002-Sep-17, 07:35 PM
The Chandra X-RAY Telescope cannot be serviced in its orbit. That's why they didn't do as much pre-launch publicity. Not as much egg on the face if something goes wrong.

L1 would definitely be the farthest from Earth anyone has ever gone if a mission was attempted!

And when Noah asks God, "What's a cubit?" God says, "Oh, a cubit...I used to know this one"

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

Kaptain K
2002-Sep-17, 07:38 PM
That should be interesting since they're putting it out at L1.
Make that L2. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

That would be one heck of a shuttle mission!
Yup! And beyond our current capabilities. This has "Murphy's Law" written all over it in dayglo ink. I'm hoping for the best, but I sure hope that someone is at least planning for "less than optimal" scenarios. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Andrew
2002-Sep-17, 07:53 PM
On 2002-09-17 15:38, Kaptain K wrote:

That would be one heck of a shuttle mission!
Yup! And beyond our current capabilities.


They wouldn't be able to make it through the deadly radiation of the van Allen Belt!

Rich
2002-Sep-17, 09:23 PM
L2? I stand corrected.



They wouldn't be able to make it through the deadly radiation of the van Allen Belt!


I hadn't thought of that. Won't that fry the satellite anyway? I mean, if we can't protect a couple people from it how can we possibly protect billions of dollars of sensitive equipment? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rich on 2002-09-17 17:23 ]</font>

Andrew
2002-Sep-17, 09:36 PM
It's a joke, it's what the moon hoaxers cite as the reason NASA couldn't go to the moon.

Cloudy
2002-Sep-18, 06:40 AM
It won't be serviceable, but it will also
be ALLOT cheaper than the last space telescope. There are allot of more expensive, non-serviceable satelites and probes out there.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they made 2 of them. Especially if they are using unusualy new tech and need super-high precision. The second spacecraft does not cost nearly as much once you've built one. The second craft would be either a backup or a bonus depending on how first one worked. The Viking and Voyager missions were built this way.

It may be possible to have robotic servicing missions. This is being seriously considered for commercial communications satelites in geosynchronous orbit - though all that would be attempted at first would be to simply attach a new motor + fuel to a satelite that had run out.

As has been stated before re the moon hoax -
The Van Allen belts do not pose any danger for humans as long as you don't dilly-dally in the worst parts. If you go right through - your ok, the added radiation dose isn't terribly significant. Kind of like Fire walking - the ritual where you take three quick steps as you walk over a bed of super-hot coals.

Satelites can be hardened to withstand the Van Allen belt radiation. The Galileo probe even braves much worse regions near Jupiter.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cloudy on 2002-09-18 02:47 ]</font>

Rich
2002-Sep-18, 11:37 AM
Andrew,

I got that... hence the: /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

ToSeek
2002-Sep-18, 01:39 PM
On 2002-09-17 12:12, Firefox wrote:
One of the few gripes I'd have is the choice in names. It seems this one is more politically motivated than the naming of the HST.

I suppose the 20-foot dimension was for the benefit of us Americans and our silly standard measurement system. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
-Adam


I for one don't have a problem with naming the telescope after the best administrator NASA's ever had, and one who tried to support science in addition to his clear mandate for "man-moon-decade." Heck, they ought to call the whole agency the James Webb Space Administration!

And I would expect that the "20-foot" figure is a press release number for the benefit of the metrically illiterate.

xriso
2002-Sep-22, 04:58 PM
Well, how much resolution on Pluto will we get from the NGST (or whatever it's called now)? Will it compare to the data obtained from the Pluto-Charon eclipses?

John Kierein
2002-Sep-22, 08:32 PM
Ask Reiner Illig at Ball Aerospace. rillig@ball.com
Ball won the Webb Space Telescope contract along with TRW, and Reiner has long been interested in similar problems, like even attempting to resolve extrasolar planets.

ToSeek
2003-Apr-15, 03:11 PM
Update on the JWST (http://www.floridatoday.com/news/space/stories/2003a/041403webb.htm)

ToSeek
2003-Sep-11, 06:48 PM
Technology and contractor selected for JWST mirror (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0309/10jwstmirror/)

Ball Aerospace did COSTAR (Hubble's "eyeglasses") as well as numerous other notable spacecraft systems over the years.

Madcat
2003-Sep-13, 06:51 AM
Why is it beyond our capabilities to put someone at L2? Couldn't a Saturn V (granted there aren't really any at the moment but so what) reach escape velocity with the Apollo vehicles? If you can do that you should be able to go anywhere, right? It's not so far away that you'd need to take four years worth of supplies.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-13, 12:27 PM
Why is it beyond our capabilities to put someone at L2? Couldn't a Saturn V (granted there aren't really any at the moment but so what) reach escape velocity with the Apollo vehicles? If you can do that you should be able to go anywhere, right? It's not so far away that you'd need to take four years worth of supplies.

Exactly: a Saturn V with an Apollo capsule would do it just fine, but we haven't got any of those and haven't had one for about 30 years now. The shuttle is incapable of making it to the L2 point, and it's the only game in town for manned flight. Developing a system to get human beings to the L2 point would cost far more than the spacecraft that are going to be there. It's even argued that Hubble servicing missions aren't cost-effective: it might be better and cheaper just to build a whole 'nother spacecraft.

AK
2003-Sep-13, 11:39 PM
For the uninitiated (e.g. me), what do L1/L2/etc mean? Where are these locations and what is the significance?

Kaptain K
2003-Sep-14, 03:27 AM
Lagrange points are quasi-stable (L1, L2 and L3) and stable (L4 and L5) points in relation to two other objects. See here:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/ob_techorbit1.html

The Earth-Sun L1 is where SOHO is stationed. The Earth-Sun L2 is home to WMAP and the future home of the NGST. The L4 and L5 points are the "trojan points.

AK
2003-Sep-14, 03:43 AM
Lagrange points are quasi-stable (L1, L2 and L3) and stable (L4 and L5) points in relation to two other objects. See here:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/ob_techorbit1.html

The Earth-Sun L1 is where SOHO is stationed. The Earth-Sun L2 is home to WMAP and the future home of the NGST. The L4 and L5 points are the "trojan points.

Got it.

Thanks.

Matthew
2003-Oct-10, 08:13 AM
The James Webb Space Telescope (JWSP) is the replacment of the Hubble.

Info can be found at JWST Info (http://www.ngst.nasa.gov/FastFacts.htm) and at JWST FAQ (http://www.ngst.nasa.gov/FAQ/FAQans.htm).

It will be able to see stars 10 to 100 times fainter than the Hubble. It won&#39;t be able to see in (all) visible light though. But apparently thats not necessary because of Red Shift. It will be mainly looking in the infra-red area of the spectrum.

It will also help in the search for Dark Matter, it will be able to detect planets and various other things. Probably the most important thing is that it will be able to look deep into space, and thus deep into time.

JWST proposed launch date is August 2011.

Glom
2003-Nov-14, 11:22 PM
One of the few gripes I'd have is the choice in names. It seems this one is more politically motivated than the naming of the HST.

We could pretend it's really called the Jay Windley Space Telescope. :wink:

setiman
2004-Apr-14, 10:08 AM
:) The James Webb Space Telescope is considered to be the next generation space telescope that will extend the reach and scientific discoveries started by the Hubble Space Telescope. For those interested in its progress visit the following link.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/telescopes-04c.html

Please note that JWST won&#39;t launch until after 2011. Also because it will be at the L2 location it will be 1.5 million kilometers from Earth. It will not receive service missions like the Hubble.

Cheers :D

star-mite
2004-Apr-24, 05:27 PM
:angry: :rolleyes: .........They " whoever &#39;they are , are nuts nuts to skuttle the Hubble &#33;
Star-mite.

setiman
2004-Apr-24, 07:28 PM
Do you say this because JWST replaces Hubble? If that is your reason, you need to understand it does not. It will be exploring entirely different areas of the universe. It also will NOT return images of the kind Hubble does.


If you have another reason, please share it with us.

ToSeek
2004-May-12, 03:46 PM
Webb Telescope on track to replace Hubble in 2011 (http://www.floridatoday.com/news/space/stories/2004a/spacestoryN0512WEBBSCOPE.htm)

Kaptain K
2004-May-12, 05:36 PM
The Webb telescope was not designed as a "replacement" for Hubble (although that is what it is being sold as now). It was meant to supplement Hubble, not replace it. Webb is optimised for infra-red, therefore it is (will be) better suited for deep-field and ultra-deep field work that is necessary for cosmology and for the study of galactic cores and other regions where visible and ultra-violet are obscured. For visible and UV, it will not replace Hubble.

AZgazer
2004-May-12, 07:00 PM
I have to run some errands atm, so I am going to ask the question and maybe someone can answer it before I get back. Why are we not using L4 &amp; L5 in the Sun-Earth system? On the Nasa link there was a link to a page describing in greater detail the Dust Cloud (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ApJ/journal/issues/ApJ/v508n1/37785/37785.html#rf12) that was about 10 pages long and I just don't have the time right now to read it, so does anyone know?

daver
2004-May-12, 07:38 PM
I have to run some errands atm, so I am going to ask the question and maybe someone can answer it before I get back. Why are we not using L4 &amp; L5 in the Sun-Earth system? On the Nasa link there was a link to a page describing in greater detail the Dust Cloud (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ApJ/journal/issues/ApJ/v508n1/37785/37785.html#rf12) that was about 10 pages long and I just don't have the time right now to read it, so does anyone know?

Basically, because they aren't useful. We use some of the Lagrangian points for special satellites, but there's nothing particularly useful about L4 and L5.

Oops, I misread your question--you were talking about Earth-Sun Lagrange points, I was talking about Earth-Moon Lagrange points. The reply more or less stands, though. The Earth-Sun L4/L5 regions aren't points--they're distorted commas. There's no real advantage to putting a satellite there--the satellite won't be particularly stable, and it's a long ways away. The other LaGrange points have been used (they aren't stable, but there are halo orbits around them that are relatively stable).

AZgazer
2004-May-12, 11:00 PM
Thanks for the reply Daver. If someone in the know wouldn't mind explaining a few things, here are my initial thoughts.

After looking at the Lagrange Diagrams it seemed they (L4 &amp; L5 in the Sun-Earth system) offered 2 advantages. One being no on-board fuel/propulsion system needed as they are stable positions. (Seems my understanding of the term stable in this case was wrong.) Second the spots would be free of visual interference from the Sun, negating the need for a coronagraph(?). With the weight/space savings on the satellite better viewing/recording/data transmission systems could be used in place.

daver
2004-May-13, 01:23 AM
Thanks for the reply Daver. If someone in the know wouldn't mind explaining a few things, here are my initial thoughts.

After looking at the Lagrange Diagrams it seemed they (L4 &amp; L5 in the Sun-Earth system) offered 2 advantages. One being no on-board fuel/propulsion system needed as they are stable positions. (Seems my understanding of the term stable in this case was wrong.) Second the spots would be free of visual interference from the Sun, negating the need for a coronagraph(?). With the weight/space savings on the satellite better viewing/recording/data transmission systems could be used in place.

I shouldn't take too much credit--I googled for L4; I thought that one of the early solar observatories might have been parked in L4 or L5; I found the smeared stable points by accident.

I don't understand your bit about lack of interference from the sun. Certainly, getting the satellite away from the earth so it wouldn't go into eclipse every hour and a half and so the earth wouldn't block its view for 45 minutes out of every hour and a half would be a distinct advantage; that's one of the reasons why Hubble was the only observatory built to be serviced by the shuttle. For the most part, though, there's no point in going out of high earth orbit for this.

Umm. There are some downsides to putting the satellite further from the earth--HST uses magnetic torquers to desaturate its momentum gyros (how about that for a buzzword jumble?). This means that Hubble doesn't periodically pollute its near environment by firing thrusters--instead, it can react against the earth's magnetic field. This isn't nearly as effective further from the earth.

AZgazer
2004-May-13, 02:00 AM
I don't understand your bit about lack of interference from the sun. Certainly, getting the satellite away from the earth so it wouldn't go into eclipse every hour and a half and so the earth wouldn't block its view for 45 minutes out of every hour and a half would be a distinct advantage; that's one of the reasons why Hubble was the only observatory built to be serviced by the shuttle. For the most part, though, there's no point in going out of high earth orbit for this.

From looking at the Lagrange Earth-Sun diagram and seeing that HST in L2 needs a coronagraph it appeared to me that from L4 or L5 simply due to not being in a direct line with the sun L4/5 might result in not needing the coronagraph. (I did put a question mark in quotation marks indicating I was not sure if that was a true statement or not.) The weight/space savings here would be minimal but I was thinking more along LOS and maybe being able to use the red color spectrum as a big bonus... is that not as important as I thought it would be?


Umm. There are some downsides to putting the satellite further from the earth--HST uses magnetic torquers to desaturate its momentum gyros (how about that for a buzzword jumble?). This means that Hubble doesn't periodically pollute its near environment by firing thrusters--instead, it can react against the earth's magnetic field. This isn't nearly as effective further from the earth.

I wasn't aware that HST uses a magnetic field to adjust itself. Guess my savings on fuel and a propulsion system are pretty null. :(

But thank you again Daver and the rest of the BABB. I am new to the world of details in Astronomy and want to know why things are the way they are. This board has been great, one of the biggest problems I faced when taking a serious intrest in Astronomy was there is an abundance of informatoin out there and trying to dicipher it without a guiding hand would be a seemingly insurmountable task.

ToSeek
2004-Sep-17, 05:03 PM
Canada to build key component of NASA's next giant space telescope (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15067)


The Canadian Space Agency (CSA) recently awarded a $5-million contract to Ottawa-based EMS Technologies' Space and Technology Group for the design of the fine guidance sensor, in partnership with COM DEV of Cambridge, Ontario.

Richard0802
2004-Sep-19, 09:44 PM
It has just been announced that Canada will build a key component of the gigantic James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) to be launched by NASA in August 2011. The Canadian Space Agency (CSA) recently awarded a &#036;5-million contract to Ottawa-based EMS Technologies&#39; Space and Technology Group for the design of the fine guidance sensor, in partnership with COM DEV of Cambridge, Ontario. Northrup Grumman Space Technologies of Los Angeles, California, will build the JWST under NASA supervision at an estimated cost of US&#036;1.5 billion. :)

Mr. Alan Haase, Senior Vice-President and General Manager of EMS Technologies&#39; Space and Technology Group announced a short time ago: "Our instrument, the fine guidance sensor, is critical to the success of the mission. It will measure the positions of very faint stars to extremely high accuracy. This is necessary for JWST to achieve the high quality of images required by the scientific objectives," said, "We are also including a tuneable filter camera that will provide unique scientific capabilities." :rolleyes:

"When launched in 2011, JWST will peer into the past to greater distances than ever before," says Dr. Hutchings. "With it, we will be able to observe the formation of the first stars and galaxies in the universe, close to the beginning of time," he said. :)

It is understood that the James Web Space Telescope will Launch in August 2011 although it has not yet been decided what launch vehicle will be used for this. The total payload mass being approx 6200 kg, including observatory, on-orbit consumables and launch vehicle adaptor.

The mission duration is expected to be 5 - 10 years. The diameter of its primary Mirror will be around 6.5 meters (21.3 ft) that will be made from the material Beryllium and will have a clear aperture of 25 m. The Mass of the primary mirror being about one-third as much as the Hubble Space Telescope at present. I also understand that the mirror will have 18 mirror segments. Its great size will give astronomers an optical resolution of ~0.1 arc-seconds, and a wavelength coverage in the region of 0.6 - 28 microns to work with. Because the James Web Space Telescope is so big it will be vulnerable to damage caused by meteoroids or even space debris, it will therfore have a huge protection shield measuring 22 m x 10 m (72 ft x 33 ft). :rolleyes:

The &#036;824.8 million new space telescope will be operating at a temperature of less than 50 K (-370° F) in an Earth orbit 1.5 million km from Earth at L2 Point. This location lies beyond the Earth&#39;s orbit, thus the bright Earth is never seen by JWST which will reduce problems with any stray light. B)

This is a BIG Telescope to launch into space, what launch vehical do you think should be used and why? With 6 years to go before launch, time is short to design and built a new rocket&#33;

GOURDHEAD
2004-Sep-20, 11:42 AM
what launch vehicle do you think should be used and why? With 6 years to go before launch, time is short to design and build a new rocket&#33;

Is it being designed to be transported in pieces of manageable size with final assembly being completed in orbit? If so we should use the most reliable system available. I hope we can avoid building an entirely new launch system from scratch.

Richard0802
2004-Sep-20, 01:24 PM
Hi Gourdhead, thanks for visiting. :D

It is expected to be launched in one piece by a "Medium" class, Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle (EELV). I know that the Delta IV and Atlas V fall into this group and so does the ESA Ariane 5. It will take 3 months to get to Lagrange point 2, which is 1.5 million kilometres away from Earth. The problem is that once at this location it will be out of reach of the space shuttle so repairs cannot be carried out.

Lets hope its primary mirror is not flawed in the same way Hobbles’ mirror was in the beginning. :rolleyes:

The launch vehical has not been chosen yet so my question remains partly unanswerd.

Best wishes and Clear Skies Gourhead

antoniseb
2004-Sep-20, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Richard0802@Sep 19 2004, 09:44 PM
Because the James Web Space Telescope is so big it will be vulnerable to damage caused by meteoroids or even space debris, it will therfore have a huge protection shield measuring 22 m x 10 m (72 ft x 33 ft).
Thanks for a nice piece on the Canadian participation in the upcoming JWST. Concerning the protection shield, it is not inteded to protect it from meteoroids, it is simply to reflect away the sunlight, so that the instrument can maintain the low temperatures required for deep infrared work.

Since the JWST is going to be operating in an L2 Halo orbit, it will not be exposed to any man-made space debris.

Concerning the mass of the probe, and the need for a new rocket, NASA believes that it can be launched with any of the following existing rockets: Atlas V, Ariane V, Delta IV.

The actual aperture will be 6.5 meters. I don&#39;t know where you got the 25 meter figure, but the instrument will NOT be 25 meters. It will be 6.5 including all segments.

Here&#39;s a link to the JWST website:
JWST Website (http://ngst.gsfc.nasa.gov/)

ToSeek
2004-Nov-16, 05:49 PM
James Webb Telescope mirror building moves ahead (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0411/15jwst/)


NASA's James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) moved a major step forward with the opening of a state-of-the-art facility in Cullman, Ala., that will machine the observatory's optical components. Northrop Grumman Corporation is the prime contractor for JWST, leading the observatory's design and development team under contract to NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center.

This may be the most technically challenging part of the mission, and one that is being closely watched: if JWST can successfully launch, deploy, and use a segmented mirror, that would open the door for many other astronomy missions to do the same.

zebo-the-fat
2004-Nov-29, 10:18 PM
Work has begun on the primary mirror of the James Webb Space Telescope

LINK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/29/webb_mirrors_begin/)

I hope they test this one before launch! :D

Kaptain K
2004-Nov-29, 10:24 PM
Work has begun on the primary mirror of the James Webb Space Telescope

LINK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/29/webb_mirrors_begin/)

I hope they test this one before launch! :D
They tested the Hubble mirror. The test equipment was faulty! :o

zebo-the-fat
2004-Nov-29, 10:26 PM
Work has begun on the primary mirror of the James Webb Space Telescope

LINK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/29/webb_mirrors_begin/)

I hope they test this one before launch! :D
They tested the Hubble mirror. The test equipment was faulty! :o

True! a flake of paint in the wrong place I think.

Kaptain K
2004-Nov-29, 11:14 PM
IIRC - Im going from memory here.

The test equipment was either designed or built incorrectl (wrong curvature and/or spacing of the optical parts). Ironically, an older, less accurate :o test showed the flaw, but they chose to believe the newer test! :roll:

2004-Nov-30, 01:30 AM
IIRC - Im going from memory here.

The test equipment was either designed or built incorrectl (wrong curvature and/or spacing of the optical parts). Ironically, an older, less accurate :o test showed the flaw, but they chose to believe the newer test! :roll:

It was a multi use jig and the wrong spacer was installed for the test. They made the mirror perfectly to the wrong spec.

Kaptain K
2004-Nov-30, 07:15 AM
IIRC - Im going from memory here.

The test equipment was either designed or built incorrectl (wrong curvature and/or spacing of the optical parts). Ironically, an older, less accurate :o test showed the flaw, but they chose to believe the newer test! :roll:

It was a multi use jig and the wrong spacer was installed for the test. They made the mirror perfectly to the wrong spec.
Thanks for the correction. The sad thing is, as I said earlier, an older, less accurate test showed the flaw, but they chose to believe the newer test!

parallaxicality
2004-Nov-30, 01:14 PM
Forgive me for being out of the loop, but is this the NGST? And who was James Webb?

ngc3314
2004-Nov-30, 01:33 PM
Forgive me for being out of the loop, but is this the NGST? And who was James Webb?

1 - Yes.

2 - NASA administrator through much of the 1960s. While from a political background rather than a technical one, he did push for science missions during the Apollo era. What gives him heroic status among NASA administrators to this day is that he played a key role in getting Apollo funded... In the current climate, it may yet turn out to have been a brilliant move to name a space telescope for a former NASA administrator!

Andromeda321
2004-Nov-30, 06:48 PM
I dunno, I personally was never much of a fan regarding the name seeing ast the rest of the telescopes were named after famous scientists. That and let's face it, many astro-nuts don't even know who James Webb was let alone the public so from a PR perspective they could've picked a better name, IMO.

ToSeek
2004-Nov-30, 08:32 PM
Advancing the Webb (http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&amp;name=News&amp;file=article&amp;sid= 1318&amp;mode=thread&amp;order=0&amp;thold=0)


The Webb Space Telescope is one of the next generations observatories that will reside near the balance point (L2) between the Earth and Sun. Because the Webb is sensitive to infrared, its contributions will include looking to the earliest dawn of stellar structures. The mirror system is expected to be completed in 2007 in time for its planned 2011 launch.

ngc3314
2004-Nov-30, 08:49 PM
I dunno, I personally was never much of a fan regarding the name seeing ast the rest of the telescopes were named after famous scientists. That and let's face it, many astro-nuts don't even know who James Webb was let alone the public so from a PR perspective they could've picked a better name, IMO.

For this case, I'd be willing to give them a pass because Webb was so important behind the scenes not only to funding but to keeping the budgetary axe from galling on science programs. That said, I can think of a great many people in administrative positions after whom it would be a crime to name a functioning space telescope. Assuming it's finished its asteroseismology plan B and is therefore astronomically non-functional, I hereby open a contest to suggest the most appropriate renaming of WIRE [1].

[1] (Wide-Field Infrared Explorer, main mission lost when the aperture cover failed to open properly so the cryogenic coolant all boiled away before the IR telescope could see the sky.)

Most of the obvious astronomical names have been used by earlier missions - Galileo, Copernicus (twice), Tycho (by Hipparcos), Hubble, Herschel, Planck, Cassini, Goddard (one splashed and one went to HST), Compton, Chandrasekhar, Spitzer, Kuiper, even Sagan. Eddington and Kepler are on pending missions. I wouldn't mind seeing Clyde headed to Pluto. Now Oort is still available, Tinsley would be great and one could have some fun with using Cannon and Leavitt... It's easier if the honoree has shuffled off this mortal coil, so we can hope that no one needs to name a spacecraft Phil until waaaay through the century.

archman
2004-Dec-02, 05:35 AM
I've never heard reference to this telescope as the "Hubble 2". Doesn't it have a different mission entirely?

Padawan
2004-Dec-02, 08:07 AM
I'm happy that they have started working on another large space telescope. Too bad it will be so many years till it is finished.

ToSeek
2004-Dec-02, 03:08 PM
I've never heard reference to this telescope as the "Hubble 2". Doesn't it have a different mission entirely?

It's sometimes referred to as the successor to Hubble, but that's a misnomer considering that it's an infrared telescope. It's more like a successor to Spitzer. (http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/)

Kaptain K
2004-Dec-02, 05:33 PM
I've never heard reference to this telescope as the "Hubble 2". Doesn't it have a different mission entirely?

It's sometimes referred to as the successor to Hubble, but that's a misnomer considering that it's an infrared telescope. It's more like a successor to Spitzer. (http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/)
Well put! The Webb would have been a nice complement to the Hubble...but a replacement it is not. :(

John Dlugosz
2004-Dec-02, 09:18 PM
I dunno, I personally was never much of a fan regarding the name seeing ast the rest of the telescopes were named after famous scientists. That and let's face it, many astro-nuts don't even know who James Webb was let alone the public so from a PR perspective they could've picked a better name, IMO.

Could be worse. How about the "Coca Cola American Airlines Nike Space Telescope"?

sarongsong
2005-Mar-09, 05:31 AM
March 7, 2005
"...Preliminary tests have been carried out on instruments for the James Webb telescope inside the Blackford Hill facility's new £4 million extension..."
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=250242005

ToSeek
2005-May-16, 05:25 PM
The article is here (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/308/5724/935) for those of you with subscriptions to Science.


Faced with a $1 billion cost overrun, NASA
managers last week began to search for
cheaper designs for the $3.5 billion James
Webb Space Telescope (JWST). But
astronomers say the initial attempt to scale
back the complexity of the spacecraft and its
instruments is a nonstarter for the mission
slated for a 2011 launch as a follow-on to the
Hubble Space Telescope.

To summarize:
- Northrop Grumman projects construction to cost $309 million more than expected.
- Design changes have added $100 million.
- Launching on the Ariane is going to cost more than expected.
- New NASA accounting rules add another $100 million.

Astronomers say scaling back (like reducing the mirror's size from 6.5 meters to 4) would make the whole mission pointless.

papageno
2005-May-16, 05:29 PM
New NASA accounting rules add another $100 million.
How does that work? :o

ToSeek
2005-May-16, 06:30 PM
New NASA accounting rules add another $100 million.
How does that work? :o

"New rules that require NASA projects
to include all costs associated with the
program mean another $100 million."

ngc3314
2005-May-16, 08:31 PM
New NASA accounting rules add another $100 million.
How does that work? :o

One factor is that, since the JWST project's inception, NASA has moved to full-cost accounting. Among other things of which I'm probably blissfully unaware, this means that certain support services formally taken out of the agency's operating budget at the top are now charged individually to each program. A prime example is use of the Deep-Space Network dishes, which is now charged to the program using it. The effect is supposed to be more transparent costs, with services such as the DSN being paid for by (at least on paper) transfers from users. This ought to be budget-neutral if done right, but in this case, it seems the cost cap didn't change with the new accounting rules. Ths may also affect costs for time of NASA personnel temporarily assigned to the project

The Bad Astronomer
2005-May-16, 10:18 PM
Interesting timing. I just got an email about the ESA's mission Herschel (http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=16), which, except for the primary mirror size, sounds a lot like JWST (and has an easier to pronounce name).

Jorge
2005-May-16, 10:44 PM
Interesting timing. I just got an email about the ESA's mission Herschel (http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=16), which, except for the primary mirror size, sounds a lot like JWST (and has an easier to pronounce name).

And why couldn't NASA and ESA work together to make one?

gopher65
2005-May-17, 01:47 AM
Interesting timing. I just got an email about the ESA's mission Herschel (http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=16), which, except for the primary mirror size, sounds a lot like JWST (and has an easier to pronounce name).

And why couldn't NASA and ESA work together to make one?Ditto:P. While I would like to see two of them up and running, I'd rather have 1 decent well funded effort than 2 missions that fail because someone didn't bother converting inches to cm, or because they can't grind a mirror to the correct specifications.

ngc3314
2005-May-17, 12:05 PM
Interesting timing. I just got an email about the ESA's mission Herschel (http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=16), which, except for the primary mirror size, sounds a lot like JWST (and has an easier to pronounce name).

And why couldn't NASA and ESA work together to make one?

Hint: you may be unaware that ESA is a partner in JWST at a level 15% or more. In fact, their contribution includes launching the instrument on an Ariane V.

CJSF
2005-May-17, 06:16 PM
Great so not only is JWST not a replacement for Hubble, it might not be anything!

CJSF

Demigrog
2005-May-17, 08:31 PM
Great so not only is JWST not a replacement for Hubble, it might not be anything!

CJSF

Perhaps it isn't a coincidence that the JWST cost overrun closely matches the Hubble repair mission cost. Perhaps I'm paranoid. 8-[

publiusr
2005-May-19, 07:48 PM
Webb needs to be axed.

ToSeek
2005-May-19, 10:23 PM
Webb needs to be axed.

The National Academy of Sciences has JWST first on its wish list of new astronomical observatories. I'd be interested in knowing your rationale for cancelling it.

publiusr
2005-May-20, 07:48 PM
To start with--we already have Hubble--and Webb is not a true optical replacement that many want.

Secondly--once Webb is put up there--there will be no way at all to service it--even though it isn't that far away (farther than Hubble--and out of easy reach of CEV).

Thirdly--money from this and other cuts will go into rocketry--which has been neglected. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/launchers-05zw.html

Lastly: You all know of my interest in HLLVs. Here is one reason I support them:

http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/design/foci/ Now that's a space telescope NO planetbound scope will match.

The infrastructure we need for truly grand missions will be undermined if every Mars rover and every 'scope is given money--money that will be wasted launching these things on EELVs--which can only eat into VSE as envisioned by Griffin.

The robotics types view VSE as a waste and a distraction--but they forget that without human-rated boosters like R-7--we wouldn't even have GOES weathersats up there. The military only wanted TOPOL-M/Minutemen sized missiles no good for anything else.

My point is that we have focused too much on payloads--and not enough on vehicles. The pointy heads and white coats might not like Griffin now--but if they would support him instead of undermining him with every little wish list--the HLLV he supports (with zeal equal to mine) will allow for truly grand probes they can hardly imagine.

But this is what happens when scientists dis engineers and their needs--constantly putting off the folks who give them the rockets--without which there is no space exploration.

Horse first--cart later. That is Griffin's take--and I agree with him.

ToSeek
2005-May-20, 08:33 PM
To start with--we already have Hubble--and Webb is not a true optical replacement that many want.

Webb focuses on the infrared because that's what's of greatest interest to astronomers. Visible astronomy can be done from the ground; infrared can't.


Secondly--once Webb is put up there--there will be no way at all to service it--even though it isn't that far away (farther than Hubble--and out of easy reach of CEV).

Servicing is overrated (so long as you get it right the first time!). A replacement Hubble could have been launched for the cost of the servicing missions.


Thirdly--money from this and other cuts will go into rocketry--which has been neglected. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/launchers-05zw.html

I won't argue with you here. It seems like everything we've got now is basically a Delta or an Atlas - 40-year-old technology.


Lastly: You all know of my interest in HLLVs. Here is one reason I support them:

http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/design/foci/ Now that's a space telescope NO planetbound scope will match.

That would be pretty cool. I also have a sneaking fondness for the TAU mission.


The infrastructure we need for truly grand missions will be undermined if every Mars rover and every 'scope is given money--money that will be wasted launching these things on EELVs--which can only eat into VSE as envisioned by Griffin.

People see a limited pot and want their share. With NASA's limited budget, it's hard to blame them.


The robotics types view VSE as a waste and a distraction--but they forget that without human-rated boosters like R-7--we wouldn't even have GOES weathersats up there. The military only wanted TOPOL-M/Minutemen sized missiles no good for anything else.

That seems arguable. There's no way of telling what might have happened if manned spaceflight had gone differently.


My point is that we have focused too much on payloads--and not enough on vehicles. The pointy heads and white coats might not like Griffin now--but if they would support him instead of undermining him with every little wish list--the HLLV he supports (with zeal equal to mine) will allow for truly grand probes they can hardly imagine.

But on a limited budget, how can you afford both the rocket technology and the "grand" probes?


But this is what happens when scientists dis engineers and their needs--constantly putting off the folks who give them the rockets--without which there is no space exploration.

Horse first--cart later. That is Griffin's take--and I agree with him.

But the cart is the reason for the horse. There's no point in developing rockets for their own sake (though that's just about what was done with the space shuttle, it seems).

publiusr
2005-May-20, 08:40 PM
Once the big rockets are done--then the money goes on the probes. The money was spent on the Thor IRBM before it could become the Delta--now its paid for and has been around so long it has become a crutch.

Imagine if all 100 or so Shuttle flights had been HLLV stacks without the orbiter. (with Energiya Buran it would have been a mix)

Can you imagine what we would have had up there had the orbiter not been required as part of the stack because it had the three SSMEs and not the ET?

100 missions with 100 tons lofted each time. Do the math.

Now that would be a space program we could all support. It's not too late--if Griffin has his way.

antoniseb
2005-May-25, 01:55 PM
Here&#39;s a new scientist story about cost overruns with the James Webb Space Telescope:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7423

They are looking at ways to reduce the overall cost of the mission, but are unwilling to launch on a cheaper Ariane 5, as opposed to a Boeing Delta IV.

drjgokhale
2005-May-26, 04:58 AM
Most people directly or indirectly responsible for that state of affairs - costing skyrocketing and making it easier to give up space missions - would find it natural when it comes to their own part, even if they see that it is deplorable on the whole, which many would not concern themselves with. If more than a handful saw the necessity of progress and agreed with the need of at least postponing if not giivng up some of one&#39;s own immediate pleasures and so on, humanity would progress far more dynamically.

Ken Vogt
2005-Jun-14, 11:46 AM
arXiv today has a paper on the design and uses of JWST here (http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0506253), titled How JWST can measure First Light,
Reionization and Galaxy Assembly.

Many parts are over my head, but much is accessible. One conclusion is

In conclusion, if the JWST is to remain NASA’s First Light machine, it needs
to have a 6.5 m class aperture and its near-IR to mid-IR capabilities to assure
proper measurement of the expected First Light objects.

Hazzard
2005-Jun-15, 01:04 PM
Please anyone.


Were can I find a good link..?

Kullat Nunu
2005-Jun-15, 01:09 PM
James Webb Space Telescope

http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/
http://jwstsite.stsci.edu/
http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/

frogesque
2005-Jun-15, 01:33 PM
Worthy in its own right as a different window on the universe, JWST won't 'replace' Hubble's visible spectrum capabilities but will compliment the research done by 'seeing' into the IR.

Kullat Nunu
2005-Jun-15, 02:42 PM
Worthy in its own right as a different window on the universe, JWST won't 'replace' Hubble's visible spectrum capabilities but will compliment the research done by 'seeing' into the IR.

Yes, in that sense Hubble doesn't have any successor, which is very bad thing. Hubble is also an UV telescope, and no Earth-based telescope can replace it.

JWST is Hubble's successor in the sense that it is the next large NASA/ESA telescope project. Otherwise it is more like Spitzer's successor.

Kristophe
2005-Jun-15, 02:53 PM
If they pump out pretty pictures, the general public won't be able to tell the difference. For as much great science as HST has done, let's face it: It's a cultural icon because it shows people that the universe is beautiful. Far too many people think that any pretty picture of the sky is the result of Hubble now, in sort of the same way that they just assume that any funny song is the product of "Weird Al" Yancovic (even 10 years after the peak of his career).

Hazzard
2005-Jun-16, 11:18 AM
Thx guys :)

gopher65
2005-Jun-16, 05:05 PM
You mean other people write funny songs other than Weird Al? :o

Russ
2005-Jun-16, 05:16 PM
You mean other people write funny songs other than Weird Al? :o

Ray Stevens was the guy that Weird learned from. Ray's been writin' the funny stuff since I was a kid. (loooooooooooooooooong time ago)

ngc3314
2005-Jun-16, 05:19 PM
If they pump out pretty pictures, the general public won't be able to tell the difference.

That may be the bad news. JWST is unlikely to deliver sharper images than HST in the deep-red overlap region, blurrier due to diffraction at longer wavelengths, and doesn't have a camera with pixel count remotely approaching ACS. On top of that, most astrophysical objects show less detailed structure in the IR because of we don't see dust clouds as distinctly. (Exception: some nebulae have quite interesting structure to be seen in some near-IR emission lines, uncovered very well by even ground-based IR imaging.) So I worry a bit about the PR impact because JWST images won't look any better than HST's - the new impact will be in the science, for which you have to read the caption which can get garbled anyway.

George
2005-Jun-18, 06:24 PM
The resolution does seem to be no better, in general, than the Hubble - both rated at .1 arc-sec. JWST proposed specs.... here (http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/FastFacts.htm).

The Spitzer might be a reasonable PR comparison. Would you say the Spitzer has mostly augmented Hubble's attention-getting work from the public's perspective? [If so, this, of course, is unfair to the great work Spitzer has really accomplished.] The JWST will be in addition to the Spitzer, so it might get even less recognition.

However, wouldn't the adventures into accretion disks and planetary discoveries around dwarfs be a real plus? Yet these will not be very colorful or detailed due to their size and distance.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jun-19, 03:21 PM
Euro50, improved-VLT, CELT, JWST, OWL.
http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/31_03/ultimate.html
http://www.eso.org/projects/owl/Gallery.html

frogesque
2005-Jun-19, 04:08 PM
Euro50, improved-VLT, CELT, JWST, OWL.
http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/31_03/ultimate.html
http://www.eso.org/projects/owl/Gallery.html

If only we could launch that into space!

DroneFour
2005-Jun-19, 04:36 PM
Have they cut any metal for the JWST yet?

Halcyon Dayz
2005-Jun-19, 07:15 PM
If only we could launch that into space!
The thing weighs a 100 time as much as the ISS.
We don't just need a heavy lifter, we need a technological breakthrough.

frogesque
2005-Jun-19, 07:37 PM
If only we could launch that into space!
The thing weighs a 100 time as much as the ISS.
We don't just need a heavy lifter, we need a technological breakthrough.

Well ... see... I've got this brand new theory for an anti grav device, all I need to proove the concept is a few billion $$ and the dedicated output from 3 cold fusion power stations. Oh! and a packet of jelly babies 8-[

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jun-20, 08:36 AM
So far JWST is the one

For the Visible spectrum we have plans for Big adaptive optics scopes and Super mammoth scopes like VLST or OWL

Hubble also did some infrared &amp; UV
so along with JWST there are other projects and some have already been launched. Space InfraRed Telescope SPITZER is fidning some great stuff, already European/American project IUE provided invaluable data by measuring the energies of ultraviolet rays coming from celestial objects, NASA's Compton was great but it wasn;t for IR or UV. European Space Agency's infrared Space Observatory was called ISO, Herschel to be sent up in 2007 will be watching the universe at infra-red, the James Webb Space Telescope is the real replacement for Hubble
however there is another to watch out for Gaia will be one of the most fantastic missions of the future, it be so powerful that it will perhaps find 10,000 to 50,000 extra solar planets, the Gaia will conduct a census of one thousand million stars in the universe.

ToSeek
2005-Jul-19, 04:41 PM
Northrop Grumman Demonstrates JWST Telescope Control System at Keck Observatory (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17438)


The Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News) team developing the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has successfully tested software that will be used to bring the space observatory's 18 mirror segments into alignment following launch. The test is a key step in verifying that the mirrors will produce clear images of the first stars and galaxi

See above. This is a key capability for JWST and future telescopes.

publiusr
2005-Jul-20, 09:37 PM
I still want a solar foci scope 500-800 AU out to get some really good extra-solar planet photos.

Launch window
2005-Jul-28, 08:16 AM
Northrop Grumman Demonstrates JWST Telescope Control System at Keck Observatory (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17438)


The Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News) team developing the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has successfully tested software that will be used to bring the space observatory's 18 mirror segments into alignment following launch. The test is a key step in verifying that the mirrors will produce clear images of the first stars and galaxi

See above. This is a key capability for JWST and future telescopes.

great, this is a fantastic project

ngc3314
2005-Aug-12, 09:10 PM
This has been an interesting week! Several students and I just had the opportunity to visit the shop where the James Webb Space Telescope mirror segments are being fabricated. This is only about 1-1/2 hours up the road from us, at the Axsys facility in Cullman, Alabama. They mill the segments from solid beryllium blocks, 1.3 meters edge-to-edge and maybe 8-10 cm thick. They come in weighing 350 kg, and go out weighing 20. I was surprised to see that the support ribbing is all cut out of the metallic block rather than being attached to the front. This does contribute to strength, which will really matter at launch (improved knowledge of the expected vibrations of which led the design to thicken these ribs from the initial test). They use 8 giant numerical mills, which work in very large vacuum chambers so they can easily catch the nasty beryllium dust and slurry (visitors get the lab coats, booties, and goggles even being in the same building). So far they are on track to get all the segments delivered for polishing within 17 months, which is a big deal because mirror fabrication is a "critical path" pacing element for schedule and cost.

(Harking back to another thread - beryllium is very light, has excellent conductivity and low thermal expansion, and works very well if you can put up with the safety issues to machine it without getting dust in anyone's lungs. It turns out they also did the secondary mirrors for the ESO VLT.)

Alas, no pictures were allowed, not only because of proprietary issues but because some of the machining is also said to be applicable to neutron reflectors.

tracer
2005-Aug-12, 09:44 PM
Alas, no pictures were allowed, not only because of proprietary issues but because some of the machining is also said to be applicable to neutron reflectors.
Er ... huh? How is machining for a neutron reflector compromised by taking a picture of it?


Edited to add: Oh, wait, I think I get it. Neutron reflectors can be used to enrich uranium, hence the details of their operations are classified or something.

Arneb
2005-Aug-12, 09:46 PM
Well - probably compromising not the point - making it easier is - Making it easier for someone else.... :-?

Van Rijn
2005-Aug-12, 11:30 PM
Thanks for the post NGC3314. Interesting bits like that are what makes it fun to come to the BABB.

Donnie B.
2005-Aug-13, 11:17 PM
Alas, no pictures were allowed, not only because of proprietary issues but because some of the machining is also said to be applicable to neutron reflectors.
Er ... huh? How is machining for a neutron reflector compromised by taking a picture of it?


Edited to add: Oh, wait, I think I get it. Neutron reflectors can be used to enrich uranium, hence the details of their operations are classified or something.
Neutron reflectors are critical components of thermonuclear weapons (so-called hydrogen bombs). To my knowledge, they are not used in uranium enrichment, though some nuclear reactors include beryllium components -- possibly more common in breeder reactors, which would be another connection to weapons production.

George
2005-Aug-14, 03:27 AM
I recommend they ship a prototype 1-1/2 hours down the road to someone who would conduct some nice tests for them. :)

ToSeek
2005-Aug-24, 04:26 PM
James Webb Space Telescope marks program milestone (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/08/24/Navigation/177/201178/James+Webb+Space+Telescope+marks+program+milestone .html)


NASA's James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) team have completed the initial step in manufacturing all the primary mirrors for the next-generation space observatory's telescope - an important program milestone.

Northrop Grumman is the prime contractor, leading the JWST design and development effort.

In the first major step, molten beryllium was compressed into 18 hexagonal units called "blanks," weighing 553 pounds and measuring 1. 5 meters (nearly five feet) from end-to-end.

These blanks are now moving through the second step in the fabrication process, precision machining and etching.

Swift
2005-Aug-24, 06:43 PM
A Cleveland Plain Dealer article about the making of the beryllium mirror blanks.
LINK (http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/112471022055050.xml?nohio&amp;coll=2)

The six-sided slabs of metal fashioned at Brush Wellman's plant don't look like mirrors yet. The 18 "blanks," as they're called at this nascent stage, are a lackluster gray, only dimly reflecting the overhead factory lights.

But in the next decade, when they have been meticulously ground and polished, coated with a reflective layer of gold, mounted on a collapsible frame, folded like an origami bird, stuffed into a rocket's nose cone, blasted 940,000 miles into space and unfurled, the mirrors on NASA's James Webb Space Telescope should give scientists an unprecedented view of the very early universe.

ToSeek
2005-Aug-26, 04:53 PM
Cost cuts likely to dim space telescope’s vision (http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7908)


The vision of the James Webb Space Telescope, the future successor to Hubble, should be dimmed to cut cost overruns, say the astronomers forming the telescope's Science Assessment Team.

The JWST, set to launch no earlier than 2011, will primarily study infrared wavelengths. But it was also designed to probe shorter wavelengths, reaching down to 0.6 microns. That falls into the range of visible light and overlaps with the Hubble Space Telescope, which is likely to fail as early as 2007 unless it receives new gyroscopes and batteries.

But the JWST is already $1 billion over its budget and this week a panel of scientists recommended reducing the shorter wavelengths that Webb can readily see. The change would mean the telescope could see clearly down to wavelengths of about 1.7 microns, in the infrared band of the spectrum. But it would not be able to view the visible range down to 0.6 microns unless it spends 50% longer on its observations.

tracer
2005-Aug-26, 06:02 PM
Hmmm.

One problem I can see with a Space Telescope that can't see well at all visible wavelengths is one that has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with public perception.

The main reason laypeople like the Hubble Space Telescope is because of the pretty pictures it produces. An infrared-only -- or even an infrared-and-only-some-visible-light -- space telescope will have to produce false-color images which just aren't going to have that same "ooh, pretty!" appeal that HST's pictures do.

And the less the public likes it, the less likely it is to get good funding.

ToSeek
2005-Aug-26, 06:12 PM
Most Hubble images are actually false-color, including (arguably the most famous one of all) The Pillars of Creation (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/hubb-nf.html). They all come down in black-and-white, after all.

Swift
2005-Aug-26, 06:14 PM
And checkout ToSeek's thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=522475#522475) about Spitzer. The link there has a very pretty picture, all false color IR.
I do agree that once the instrument is installed, the "aahhh!" factor is important to get the public interested. But until it flies, it doesn't matter.

Gerbil94
2005-Aug-26, 07:13 PM
You can get pretty pictures at almost any wavelength, even with single-dish radio telescopes (http://www.ras.ucalgary.ca/CGPS/gallery/). JWST's public outreach images could be just as good as HST's. All you need are three filters, if that. Also, a lot of HST archive pictures that are rendered in colour include some near-infrared wavelengths, and there are many HST datasets that would be very boring as "Wow!" pictures because they have/needed only one filter, or whatever.

ngc3314
2005-Aug-26, 09:39 PM
You can get pretty pictures at almost any wavelength, even with single-dish radio telescopes (http://www.ras.ucalgary.ca/CGPS/gallery/). JWST's public outreach images could be just as good as HST's. All you need are three filters, if that. Also, a lot of HST archive pictures that are rendered in colour include some near-infrared wavelengths, and there are many HST datasets that would be very boring as "Wow!" pictures because they have/needed only one filter, or whatever.

There is one picky concern about the "prettiness" (as distinct from the signifiance) of JWST vis-a-vis HST. Namely, many targets will show less detailed structure at these wavelengths than the shorter ones seen by HST. This is bacause much of the fine structure in both galaxies and H II regions (i.e. star-forming nebulae) arises from either the locations of absorbing dust (which is less prominent as we look into the IR, and that's part of the point), or from the distribution of hot, young stars (likewise less and less prominent going to longer wavelengths). Not to say that it shouldn't generate rock-'em, sock'em images, but many of the most significant ones may not be as visually interesting as the Hubble Heritage series has been. On the other hand, the IR cameras have gotten bigger and bigger during development - I was surprised to see that the camera for 1.7-2.4 microns has 4096x4096 pixels, assuaging a concern about sharpness of press-release images.

Spacemad
2005-Aug-28, 11:20 PM
We are all worried about the future of the Hubble Space Telescope - now a rescue mission is on, now it&#39;s off again (like someone pulling off the petals on a daisy&#33;). Now there is news about its successor the James Webb Space Telescope.

A recent report says: Cost cuts likely to dim space telescope’s vision (http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7908)
So even before its built they are cutting costs which will result in the telescope being unable to see in visible light as was originally planned. :( Therefore it will not be seeing anything like Hubble. The images it will return (like Spitzer & Chandra&#39;s) will have to be modified so that human eyes will be able to see something approximately like JWST is seeing&#33; It won&#39;t be returning the breathtakingly beautiful images in visible light that Hubble has accustomed us to&#33;&#33; :(

ToSeek
2005-Aug-29, 05:44 PM
Most of the Hubble images are false-color. They&#39;re nothing like what you&#39;d see with your naked eye.

Hamlet
2005-Aug-30, 03:09 AM
Last Friday, I had the opportunity to see a full-sized model of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) (http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/). The model was put on display courtesy of the Space Systems Division (http://www.ssd.itt.com/) of ITT Industries and the Rochester Museum &amp; Science Center (http://www.rmsc.org/msindex.htm). The model was originally built by Northrup/Grumman and is on loan to ITT.

The telescope is huge! It measures 80 feet long by 38 feet high by 38 feet wide. I knew it was going to be big, but I really wasn't prepared for its sheer size. I spent about 45 minutes walking around and taking pictures. Even though it was only a model it really got me excited about the mission and the science behind it. Some of the images I took can be seen here (http://www.csh.rit.edu/~steve/JWST/index.html).

There was also a talk given by the JWST Project Scientist, Dr. Mark Clampin, from NASA Goddard. He talked for about 40 minutes explaining the main science goals of the JWST and the many technical challenges they have faced (and still face) in bringing the telescope to life. The talk was well attended and there were a lot of good questions afterwards. The only downside to the day was reading about the JWST cost overruns after I got back to work. :(

I'm under the impression that the model will be displayed in other cities, but I haven't been able to find out where and when. If you get a chance I think it's worth a look.

ToSeek
2005-Aug-30, 02:49 PM
Below is what I know right now. I think my task lead has the complete schedule - I'll try to get it from him and post it.


Current plans are to exhibit the mockup on the National Mall in front of the National Air &amp; Space Museum from 8:00 AM Wednesday, September 14th through 1:00 PM Thursday, September 15th, and at GSFC Thursday September 22nd through Sunday, September 25th.

EDIT: My task lead's schedule is the detailed one for the setup/takedown/moving for the DC-area visit. There's no indication of anywhere else the model might be shown.

publiusr
2005-Aug-31, 06:33 PM
I have even better news. In the current issue of Space News is an article on how Griffin will omit the de-orbit module for Hubble.

So it seems Hubble will be up there for years to come.

At least we can get at it--and it is a solid structure--not some flimsy deployable garbage bag contraption like Webb.

Spacemad
2005-Sep-03, 10:15 AM
What you say, ToSeek, is perfectly true as we would only be able to see pin pricks of light - if that&#33;

Launch window
2005-Sep-22, 01:12 PM
Herschel will be the largest ever infrared space observatory when it is launched in 2007.
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=37961
space simulator test

JWST development is led by NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. The observatory has been named after NASA's second administrator, best known for his leadership of the Apollo missions.
http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/

ToSeek
2005-Sep-22, 01:27 PM
Have they cut any metal for the JWST yet?

I was at a status report yesterday. They've created the blanks for most of the mirrors.

ToSeek
2005-Sep-22, 01:32 PM
I was at a JWST status review yesterday. The mission is still a go, though launch has been pushed back to the spring of 2013. Most of the mirror segment blanks have been produced, and the polishing facility is nearing completion. One mirror segment had a hole punched in it due to a programming problem with the tooling machine, but there are spares available.

There's a lot of replanning going on right now to reflect the new launch date, and there's some descoping of capabilities based on the report of an independent science review team. Most notably, JWST's capabilities in the optical range will not be as powerful as originallly planned, primarily because ground scopes are expected to be able to match it in within the JWST operational timeframe. (The science team was comparing it with a 30-meter ground-based optical scope, something that's only on the drawing boards right now but seems likely to happen considering that's the astronomical community's #2 priority, right after JWST.)

ToSeek
2005-Sep-22, 01:38 PM
The front lawn at Goddard is currently home to a full-scale mockup of the James Webb Space Telescope. You can get a peek at it from Greenbelt Road out in front of Goddard. If anyone would like a closer look and can get to Goddard on Saturday around lunchtime, let me know via PM. They're having an open house that day, and I can escort people in to have a look.

If you just want to see what it looks like, a colleague of mine has a bunch of photos online at:

http://www.pfarrout.com/JWSTWeb/index.html

You can see me in photo CRW_6607 almost dead center in front of the scope, shading my eyes from the Sun.

(If you're wondering about the guy in the bucket truck, he was taking a photo of all the Goddard folks supporting JWST in front of the mockup.)

ngc3314
2005-Sep-22, 03:59 PM
I was at a status report yesterday. They've created the blanks for most of the mirrors.

Not only that, more than half of them have had some of the machining done to leave the thin face and supporting ribs structure. Ahh, maybe that's what qualifies a beryllium slab as a mirror blank... (previous eyewitness report (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20177))

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Sep-24, 08:10 PM
Another thread on the JWST
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18286

Here's one that is doing very well
NASA's Spitzer Telescope
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=17731

ESA's Herschel observatory is scheduled for launch in the second half of 2007
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMV128X9DE_index_0.html
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=34682
The Herschel Space Observatory will be the largest ever infrared space observatory when it is launched in 2007.

XEUS is a follow-on to ESA's Cornerstone X-Ray Spectroscopy Mission (XMM-NEWTON). It will be a permanent space-borne X-ray observatory with a sensitivity comparable to the most advanced planned future facilities
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=31591
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMDJ12A6BD_index_0.html

also watch out for NASA's TPF and ESA's Corot working on the search for extra solar worlds

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Sep-26, 03:34 PM
the JWST looks like a great mission

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Sep-28, 09:25 PM
Although not a direct successor to Hubble — JWST will observe mainly in the infrared
http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050926/full/437610a.html
Ottawa's EMS Wins key contract for NASA's Giant Space Telescope
http://www.halifaxlive.com/artman/publish/NASA_260905_1289.shtml
NASA plans to reduce the sensitivity of the successor to the Hubble Space Telescope to beat back rising costs that threaten to overwhelm the project.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5740/1472a
Founded in 1981, the Space Telescope Science Institute is operated by AURA — the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy — under contract to NASA. STScI is housed in the Steven Muller Building, named after the university's 10th president, who was instrumental in bringing the institute to Maryland and the Homewood campus.
Currently, the institute is home to planning, scheduling and public outreach activities for the Hubble Space Telescope. Data archive and distribution services for Hubble and other missions are also provided by STScI.
In the future, the institute will operate and manage the James Webb Space Telescope, a large infrared-optimized space telescope scheduled for launch in August 2011. The Webb Telescope is designed to study the earliest galaxies and some of the first stars formed after the Big Bang — objects that have a high redshift from Earth's vantage point and need to be seen in infrared. The telescope will reside in a halo or second Lagrange point orbit, about one million miles from the Earth.
http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2005/06sep05/06mount.html

ToSeek
2005-Sep-29, 12:49 AM
Launch has been postponed to the spring of 2013 (also from the status meeting last week).

diskmaster
2005-Sep-30, 04:48 AM
I take it then that there is no optical replacement in the works?

spfrss
2005-Sep-30, 06:26 AM
Euro50, improved-VLT, CELT, JWST, OWL.
http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/31_03/ultimate.html
http://www.eso.org/projects/owl/Gallery.html

they're more or less sci-fi and I think they'll be never built, I know my Europe!!!

This one is under construction, though

The Giant Magellan Telescope

http://www.gmto.org/

live long and prosper
Mauro

ToSeek
2005-Oct-07, 05:44 PM
Mirror Segment for James Webb Space Telescope Delivered for Polishing (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17991)


Manufacturing of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) progressed further with the delivery of the telescope's first mirror segment for grinding and polishing in late September. Northrop Grumman Corporation is NASA Goddard Space Flight Center's prime contractor for the space observatory, leading the design and development effort.

Launch window
2005-Oct-09, 09:19 AM
If only we could launch that into space!

Here's a bit more on that Euro-50 telescope
50m, f/0.85

http://www.npl.co.uk/length/dmet/euro50.html
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2003SPIE.5169..123B&amp;db_key=AST&amp;d ata_type=HTML&amp;format=
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4426535.stm

report on Pdf
The 50 m scope would collect 25 times more light than the largest telescope existing & using AdaptiveOptics would concentrate the light on a spot with an area some 2000 times smaller than that of a 10 m telescope without adaptive optics, Euro-50 is able to detect very faint objects down to a magnitude of 35 (at 2.4 microns wavelength).
http://www.astro.lu.se/~torben/euro50/publications/New_Study_Report_V_26.pdf
Euro50 will be built in La Palma, Spain

ToSeek
2005-Nov-21, 07:04 PM
NASA Delays JWST Launch by 2 Years To Stem Cost Growth (http://www.space.com/spacenews/businessmonday_051121.html)


NASA plans to delay the launch of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) nearly two years, to 2013, to cope with $1 billion in cost growth on the mission, a senior program official said.

Paul Geithner, JWST program executive at NASA Headquarters here, said the agency elected in September to cover the additional costs rather than scale back the mission’s science objectives. The delay, he said, will soften the cost spike’s impact on the lean budget years immediately ahead.

This is old news to those of us actually on the program. The flip side of this is that every major player has signed on to the new schedule and indicated they can meet it.

Wolverine
2005-Nov-21, 07:12 PM
It seemed like things were leaning in that direction even to those on the outside.

Launch window
2006-Jan-06, 05:30 AM
Top German Technology for Hubble’s Successor
http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2005/pressRelease20051206/
Carl Zeiss and Max Planck researchers develop technology for the world’s largest space telescope

Doodler
2006-Jan-06, 09:23 PM
Most notably, JWST's capabilities in the optical range will not be as powerful as originallly planned, primarily because ground scopes are expected to be able to match it in within the JWST operational timeframe.

Yeah, with the exception of the "staring" ability that Hubble demonstrated on the Deep Field and Ultra Deep Field surveys. Kudos to the engineers for being able to get their adaptive optics up to orbital scope specs, but we're still sacrificing an important capability.

boppa
2006-Jan-07, 01:05 PM
USATODAY.com - Clock in NYC shows cost of Iraq war
A billboard in Times Sqaure counts the cost of the Iraq war starting at $134.5B and ... at a rate of $177M per day, $7.4M per hour and $122820 per minute. ...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-26-iraq-war-clock_x.htm

sigh... a lousy ten days would give all the money needed-plus one hell of a new years eve party to boot

maybe one day???

Cugel
2006-Jan-07, 01:56 PM
USATODAY.com - Clock in NYC shows cost of Iraq war
A billboard in Times Sqaure counts the cost of the Iraq war starting at $134.5B and ... at a rate of $177M per day, $7.4M per hour and $122820 per minute. ...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-26-iraq-war-clock_x.htm

sigh... a lousy ten days would give all the money needed-plus one hell of a new years eve party to boot

maybe one day???

Some space missions in this revealing new price unit:

MER rover: 2 days and 6 hours (0.4 B)
Cassini orbiter: 17 days (3 B)
JWST: 20 days (3.5 B)
Man on the Moon: estimated by NASA at roughly 594 days... (105 B)

That's funny, putting a man on the Moon is only slightly cheaper than bringing democracy to the Middle-East!

boppa
2006-Jan-07, 02:17 PM
cugel-u owe me one keyboard!!!

its funny- but sad too

mostly funny tho

(what could we call this new monetary unit??)

Cugel
2006-Jan-07, 05:29 PM
(what could we call this new monetary unit??)

The Baghdad?

What would a manned mission to Mars cost?
3 to 5 KBaghdad!

ToSeek
2006-Jan-07, 07:32 PM
Let's not stray too far into politics here. (We're not there yet, but we're heading in that direction.)

Launch window
2006-Jan-13, 07:41 AM
An interview with NASA Administrator Mike Griffin

Q: How is the James Webb Space Telescope doing? It's under a lot of budget and technical pressure right now. Isn't it more important than ever to keep Hubble in operation?
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0512/05griffin/
A: With regard to James Webb, what I can say - and this story is already out there - is James Webb is going to be delayed approximately two years, frankly to allow the technology to catch up with the requirements and because we're having to spend a little bit more on that technology than we anticipated doing. And in the context of the fixed budget allocation that we've got, we really don't have any choice except to slip James Webb out a couple of years. I mean James Webb continues to be the National Academy of Science's No. 1 priority in the astronomy line and we continue to agree and respect that priority. So there's no quibble, this is like going back to Hubble, which flew several years later than people had initially hoped and planned simply because it took a while to get it done. So there's no subtlety or mystery here. We'll fly James Webb as soon as we can and we think as soon as we can is a couple of years later than we first thought.

Launch window
2006-Feb-10, 07:24 PM
some real trouble ahead for the JWST ? The cuts are going deep everywhere on the science mission the NASA Project Terrestrial Planet Finder has been knocked back, delayed indefinitely - the Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy (SOFIA), a to 2.shch-.metre infrared telescope built into a boeing 747 plane, will be put under "review" because it is behind schedule. It has been given no funding for the foreseeable future, Budget ax looms over telescopes
http://starbulletin.com/2006/02/09/news/story01.html
http://www.kpua.net/news.php?id=7466
A NASA proposal cutting funds for a project on Mauna Kea has isle astronomers concerned - Funding for the Keck Outrigger Telescope project on Mauna Kea has been eliminated from NASA's draft 2007 budget, possibly killing the $50 million, four-telescope project

Before these budget cuts came about it seems JWST had already cost over-runs

JWST has ran up a $1 billion more than expected
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18286
JWST already squeezed
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=27932

ToSeek
2006-Feb-10, 07:32 PM
As discussed here (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=607039&postcount=42), JWST has taken its hits already and survived, albeit with a two-year delay. In fact, it's probably soaking up what little is left of NASA's science budget.

(I work on JWST and haven't heard about any more budget hits since the two-year delay came through, so I'm assuming we're good.)

Launch window
2006-Feb-11, 12:54 AM
I've been a big fan of the Spitzer and Hubble missions so its great to see the JWST moving forward again

here's hoping it won't take any more budget hits

Launch window
2006-Feb-13, 09:06 AM
European rocket to lift NASA telescope
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060126/NEWS02/60126001
.... The unusual arrangement involves no cash but will save NASA tens of millions of dollars in launch costs at a time when the agency’s budget is shifting to support an estimated $100 billion program to send astronauts back to the moon. ..... Lewis said it was his understanding the State Department reviewed and approved a memorandum of understanding between NASA and ESA. A spokesman for NASA did not immediately return a call seeking a comment on the agreement.
In November, NASA officials announced the launch of the James Webb Space Telescope would be delayed until 2013, nearly two years later than previously scheduled.
Space agency officials blamed the delay on initial budget and schedule projections that were too optimistic.
The Webb telescope will be a powerful observatory, far more capable than Hubble, which is nearing the end of its service life.


Executive of the Year : Arianespace Jean-Yves Le Gall
http://www.telecomweb.com/satellite/viasatellite/current/cover_story.htm
Via Satellite: In 2005, NASA awarded
Arianespace a significant civil contract, even though the United States has its own dedicated vehicles for civil missions. Do you see future U.S. civil missions for Arianespace?
Le Gall: First, let me say that we are honored to be launching NASA’s flagship astronomy satellite, the James Webb Space Telescope. The decision demonstrates the trust NASA places in Arianespace to successfully launch this large and advanced spacecraft to L2. As far as the future is concerned, time will tell. It also will depend on the scale of future U.S. civil missions that materialize. And I am certain as space exploration advances, and continued growth is made with the International Space Station, there will be a strong need for cargo and scientific payloads to be sent to space....

zorbo
2006-Feb-17, 03:36 AM
The mission duration is expected to be 5 - 10 years.


gulp !
:sad:

I'm pretty shocked - all this effort, and then imagine if it only worked fo 5 years !

That time better be used very wisely !

on a related note, I would like to hear your opinion on the naming of the JWST; especially ToSeek's take on this.
the reason is I once got kicked out of an astronomy chatroom for suggesting that I thought James Webb was a poor choice...:whistle:

Now, I don't want to lessen Webb's merits, but, IMO, naming the JWST after him just doesn't fit.
After all, he didn't really discover anything breathtaking, create some deep-space theories or formulae - he was "just" an administrator, a manager, a bureaucrat (albeit a rather good one).
I mean, there are easily dozens of names that I would prefer. Schwarzschild, Einstein, Chandrasekhar, Zwicky, Schmidt..or....or Humason.
Yup, I think Humason would be my favorite.

But J.W. ... he just doesn't click with the idea behind the JWST - or am I missing something?

No offense meant.

What do y'all think?

good night,

-z.

Kullat Nunu
2006-Feb-17, 11:48 AM
Because JWST is an international project, naming it after a NASA administrator is especially unsuitable.

antoniseb
2006-Feb-17, 12:00 PM
I also felt like naming it after James Webb was kind of a letdown. As you point out, many other space observing platforms have been named after famous long-dead scientists whose ideas have changed the world of astronomy. We are running out of names of the caliber of Einstein, Newton, Kepler, Hipparcos, etc. Who would you name it for?

ngc3314
2006-Feb-17, 01:33 PM
I also felt like naming it after James Webb was kind of a letdown. As you point out, many other space observing platforms have been named after famous long-dead scientists whose ideas have changed the world of astronomy. We are running out of names of the caliber of Einstein, Newton, Kepler, Hipparcos, etc. Who would you name it for?

Although I have to say that, given the assorted and vasty changing winds which have blown through the NASA administrator's office while this project has been in progress, naming it after a former NASA administrator might yet turn out to be the most effective insurance policy JWST could have had. At this point, JWST and the chance of one more HST servicing mission are the only parts of the NASA space-astronomy program that seem to be surviving relatively unscathed in budget plans. (Although I do like the notion of a Zwicky Space Telescope...). There is always the problem of memorializing your most prominent folks first and then having later names for more powerful instruments reaching down into the barrel.

(But then, I published a paper based on calculations performed using what was, at the time, the George C. Wallace Supercomputer Center. I conveniently forgot this part of the name in the paper's acknowledgements, and the name was changed so soon thereafter that no one every complained...)

Launch window
2006-Mar-06, 03:50 PM
Letter from AURA to House Science Commitee Regarding JWST (6 Mar 2006)
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19856
STATUS REPORT

Launch window
2006-Mar-08, 04:25 AM
What's Killing JWST
March 7, 2006

The primary reason JWST is having trouble is NPOESS (National Polar-Orbiting Operational Environmental Satellite System). Much of JWST software and hardware development is tied to NPOESS. Some overruns in NPOESS have been fixed by moving the development of common or hardware and software from NPOESS to JWST, then back to NPOESS.
http://www.usspacenews.com/
This has had the effect of moving the overruns from one program to a second. JWST is considered harder to kill than NPOESS so better able to absorb the overrun. JWST is critical to understanding the universe. NPOESS should not be allowed to drag it down. Sources tell us NASA is considering cancelling JWST and restarting the mission in FY 2008-2009

ToSeek
2006-Mar-08, 03:52 PM
I've heard rumors that JWST might be delayed another two years.

NPOESS is a total and utter mess, ironic since the goal was to save time and money by having NOAA and DOD work together on the next generation of weather satellites.

(I've worked on both recently and am working on JWST now.)

ToSeek
2006-Mar-08, 03:53 PM
Thread moved from Astronomy to Space Exploration.

ToSeek
2006-Mar-08, 05:41 PM
Two JWST threads combined.

ToSeek
2006-Mar-08, 05:44 PM
JWST Talking Points (http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2006/03/jwst_talking_po.html#more)


1. Very large JWST budget over-run (~$1B) quoted in the community are overwhelmingly due to non-technical issues
...
4. Despite the desire of some in the community to point blame for space science financial stress at one or two particular science projects, the record is clear that NASA support for development of the new Crew Exploration Vehicle is almost entirely responsible. NASA agency budget growth in FY07 is 1% (removing Katrina repairs), but proposed growth in the CEV budget is 72%. The proposed budget removes $0.4B from science in FY07, and almost $2B of previously anticipated growth in science over the next 5 years.

ToSeek
2006-Mar-09, 04:42 PM
Revised talking points (http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2006/03/jwst_talking_po.html)


JWST's current cost is appropriate for a 6.5-m space telescope. The year 2000 cost estimates for JWST (~$1B for an 8-m telescope) did not include technology development (around $230M), nor did they include work done at NASA centers (adds about ~20% to the cost under NASA's current accounting rules). Inflation to FY2006 dollars adds another 18%. JWST also incurred significant costs while the Ariane launch was debated in agencies external to NASA. With all these factors, JWST's cost estimate is now $3.5B from the first day through launch. For comparison, the Hubble Space Telescope is $4.1B in similar accounting (FY2006 dollars; full-cost accounting; no second-generation instruments, no servicing, no mission operations). JWST has gone through two replans, and has been judged independently to be as lean as possible while maintaining core capability in its science themes.

JWST is a cost-effective space telescope in terms of aperture. We have learned the lessons from HST and Spitzer. For example, using the metric of dollars per square meter of collecting area (all dollars FY2006, fullycosted) in units where HST is 1, Spitzer is 1.5 and JWST is just 0.2, even with JWST's innovative technologies (deployable beryllium mirrors, large deployable structures, and MEMS).

Launch window
2006-Mar-09, 06:21 PM
some more links on the JWST

http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/satellites/jwst.asp
Like Hubble, the JWST will be used by a broad astronomical community to observe targets ranging from objects within our Solar System to the most remote galaxies seen during their formation in the early universe


http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/L2_rendering.html
orbit of JWST

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-03/ns-ssw030806.php
Star shade will let alien planets shine
...Cash originally envisioned the disc as part of a vast "hypertelescope" that might be developed in the future (New Scientist, 25 February, p 40), but after discussions with JWST astronomers he realised it could be applied to an existing space telescope. "It's not part of the telescope, but rather something that prepares the sky to be examined by the telescope," says John Mather, senior project scientist for JWST...
....Cash's proposal does not demand extreme precision. The star-shaped disc can be built to millimetre specifications, and the system will work if the alignment of the disc and the JWST is accurate to within a few metres. "The tolerances of the whole thing are quite forgiving," Cash says. This translates into big savings on its construction and deployment, allowing Cash to propose the project as a "Discovery-class" mission, NASA's least expensive category, with a cost ceiling of $425 million. If approved it could be launched in September 2013, just three months after the JWST.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7081/full/440140a.html
US astronomy: Is the next big thing too big?
...Price tags that mimic the Big Bang's inflation are nothing new to astronomy. The problem for the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) is that the budgetary space in which it's expanding is shrinking.

Launch window
2006-Mar-22, 03:19 PM
cost over-runs on missions ? ( subscription )
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/311/5767/1540
dramatic example is the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST)

American Astronomical Society Statement to House Science Committee Regarding NASA FY 2007 Budget
STATUS REPORT
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19842
The current NASA budget for science is disappointing. Although it maintains JWST and provides for a possible refurbishment mission to HST, the sudden and wide-ranging retrenchments in this budget will halt, defer, or postpone programs to explore the solar system, to detect planets around other stars, to measure gravitational waves from astronomical events, and to seek the nature of the dark energy. Large, medium, and small programs are all proposed for cuts, without broad consultation with the community to see how best to shape NASA's program in times of finite resources. This seems unwise.

nature dot com article talks on a number of science missions like the JWST and TPF,
The article says people who don't think that TPF would be costlier than the Webb Telescope are dreaming.

ToSeek
2006-Jun-01, 05:01 PM
Hubble's successor takes shape
Technology for the next-generation space telescope is under development. (http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=4304)


A full-scale model of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) was on display in Orlando, Florida, where the International Society of Optical Engineering on Wednesday wrapped up its weeklong biannual conference. The telescope is an odd-looking contraption that would be more at home at one of the theme parks just down the road, but with just 7 years until launch, anxiety is rising among the team putting together the successor to the Hubble Space Telescope. This week, the second of the observatory's 18 beryllium mirror segments arrived for polishing at a contractor's laboratory in California.

In mid-June, the first finished segment will be taken for testing at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. It will be placed in a chamber and chilled to about –400° Fahrenheit (–243° Celsius), which is a bit colder than the telescope's intended operational environment a million miles from Earth. The cold will ensure that the telescope can sense extremely faint radiation that otherwise would be masked by the Sun's heat bouncing off of Earth.

Hamlet
2006-Jun-01, 06:07 PM
Hubble's successor takes shape
Technology for the next-generation space telescope is under development. (http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=4304)

ToSeek, thanks for the update! It's great to see the telescope is starting to come together.

For those who are interested, I tooks some images of the JWST model (http://www.csh.rit.edu/~steve/JWST/index.html) when it was on display here in Rochester last August. I was a bit overwhelmed and impressed by its size.

Spaceman Spiff
2006-Jun-09, 02:55 PM
A wonderful overview of the James Webb Space Telescope - its science goals and technical specs is outlined in this review article (http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0606175). It includes simulations of its expected capabilities.

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-09, 04:33 PM
But the question is, will it need glasses?

ToSeek
2006-Jun-09, 06:53 PM
If it does, then there's a problem because there's no provision for servicing.

ToSeek
2006-Jul-14, 03:23 PM
GAO: NASA's James Webb Space Telescope Still Faces "Considerable Challenges" (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20328)


The Government Accountability Office (GAO) today released a report on its review of NASA's James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) program. Development of the JWST was cited as the highest priority in astronomy and astrophysics in the National Academies' 2000 Decadal Survey, with the goal of allowing astronomers "to peer into the distant past and see, for the first time, the birth of the modern universe."

Since its inception, the JWST program has undergone significant cost growth (about $1 billion) and schedule slippage (of nearly two years to approximately June 2013). Recently, the program's acquisition strategy was adjusted to conform to revised NASA policy.

The GAO report identifies a number of concerns with NASA's current strategy for acquiring the JWST: "...the maturity of key technologies may not be adequately tested prior to program start." "...it appears the program will not have sufficient funding resources to ensure the program's success."

publiusr
2006-Jul-14, 07:42 PM
I'd rather have a solar foci scope.

mickal555
2006-Jul-26, 08:33 AM
In an ongoing demonstration of the technological readiness of the James Webb Space Telescope, a team led by Northrop Grumman and Ball Aerospace successfully completed several rigorous tests that proved the primary mirror for the telescope can successfully withstand launch and function as planned in its space environment.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Vibro_Acoustic_Tests_On_Webb_Telescope_Primary_Mir ror_Completed_999.html

ToSeek
2006-Jul-26, 03:57 PM
I've consolidated a bunch of JWST threads here to try to create a single resource for information on the mission. However, particular discussions may seem a little disjointed since they started out elsewhere.

ToSeek
2006-Aug-16, 05:59 PM
AIP FYI #102: Management Shortcomings Identified in James Webb Space Telescope Program (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.rss.html?pid=21707)


The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Science Policy News Number 102: August 14, 2006

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) recently released a self-initiated review of the James Webb Space Telescope program that identified several major management shortcomings. NASA concurs with the report's findings, and is taking steps to bring the program into conformity with most of its acquisition policies.

Launch window
2006-Aug-24, 12:40 AM
A wonderful overview of the James Webb Space Telescope - its science goals and technical specs is outlined in this review article (http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0606175). It includes simulations of its expected capabilities.

Thanks for the link

ToSeek
2006-Sep-05, 03:11 PM
Cold times for NASA's new telescope (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=4749)


The NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC) has begun simulated space environment testing on a key element of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST), which has suffered its fair share of development problems.
...
While MSFC carry out work on the Backplane Structural Test Article, an ambiguous NASA memo from the Goddard Space Center noted: 'JWST experienced a machining issue. A review team has been put together and processing of the engineering unit is continuing.'

The seriousness is as yet unknown, although that hasn't halted MSFC's testing of the anchor for the 18-segment mirror that will utilise its powerful infrared optics. The backplane test article, a lightweight composite material, was built by project subcontractor ATK Thiokol Propulsion.

According to August 31's Marshall Star - the internal magazine for MSFC employees - the structure was loaded into the massive vacuum chamber inside Marshall's X-ray Calibration Facility on August 8, for a four week long test at minus 420 degrees Fahrenheit, testing its flexibility and tolerance margins.

'It's about as cold as a machine can get and continue to function,' said Kevin Russell, element lead for the James Webb project at Marshall.

'At minus 459 degrees, or 'absolute zero,' the kinetic motion of subatomic particles simply ceases. That's nearly the chill factor the James Webb will experience at its orbital destination - some 932,000 miles from Earth.

'There, the deep cold of space can deform structural materials and warp ultra-sensitive optics. That's why cryogenic testing on the ground is vital to the telescope's optics and support structure.

Wolverine
2006-Sep-06, 09:37 PM
Eek... I'm curious to see details illustrating the "machining issue" they've mentioned.

Ronald Brak
2006-Dec-16, 05:48 AM
It's even argued that Hubble servicing missions aren't cost-effective: it might be better and cheaper just to build a whole 'nother spacecraft.

Now I presume that a space shuttle mission to service hubble will do other things, but it will still consume a good chunck of the something like half a billion dollars a shuttle mission costs. My guess is that for less than a billion dollars it should be possible to build and launch an optical and ultraviolet telescope that will be more effective than a serviced hubble with a longer lifespan. Costs can be kept down by learning from previous mistakes, making use of new technology and by not using the shuttle to launch it.

Does anyone know how much other stuff a shuttle gets done on a hubble servicing mission?

ToSeek
2006-Dec-16, 12:22 PM
Now I presume that a space shuttle mission to service hubble will do other things, but it will still consume a good chunck of the something like half a billion dollars a shuttle mission costs. My guess is that for less than a billion dollars it should be possible to build and launch an optical and ultraviolet telescope that will be more effective than a serviced hubble with a longer lifespan. Costs can be kept down by learning from previous mistakes, making use of new technology and by not using the shuttle to launch it.

After the initial cancellation of the Hubble servicing mission, a proposal was put together to send the new science instruments, and a third instrument, up on a Hubble-like spacecraft. The cost was estimated at $800 million-$1 billion.

ToSeek
2007-Jan-12, 06:55 PM
Ball Aerospace/NASA Achieve Key Technology Milestone for James Webb Space Telescope (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=21649)


A team of engineers from Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp. and NASA have successfully met the criteria needed to demonstrate Technology Readiness Level 6 (TRL-6) for the Wavefront Sensing and Control for the James Webb Space Telescope, a measure used by NASA to assess the maturity of evolving technologies.

The Ball Aerospace-built one-meter James Webb Space Telescope Testbed, designed to mature the telescope's critical subsystems and reduce risk, was used to demonstrate the critical end-to-end Wavefront Sensing and Control (WFS&C) process. A TRL-6 level rating means a system has been tested successfully in a relevant operational environment. This milestone proves the maturity of sophisticated image process and control software that will be needed to bring JWST into alignment following launch.

ToSeek
2007-Jan-16, 11:29 PM
Webb scope looks out of this world (http://www.physorg.com/news88191009.html)


The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST), the orbiting infrared observatory designed to succeed the Hubble Space Telescope, is set to enable fundamental breakthroughs in our understanding of the formation and evolution of galaxies, stars and planetary systems. The project is led by NASA, with major contributions from the European and Canadian Space Agencies. The telescope is scheduled for launch in 2013 for a mission of 5-10 years. NASA's Jonathan Gardner and colleagues' comprehensive description of the scientific goals and technical design of the observatory, which can be used by scientists throughout the world in planning for Webb's investigations and discoveries, was recently published in Springer's peer-reviewed journal Space Science Reviews.

Article online at http://www.springerlink.com/content/q58315621w03/ .

I tracked it down on arXiv some months ago. It's a bit technical but well worth a read.

ToSeek
2007-Jan-18, 07:14 PM
James Webb Space Telescope Mirror Backplane Prototype Passes Critical NASA Space Readiness Tests (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=21702)


A prototype structure that holds the primary mirrors for the optical element of the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) passed a key readiness milestone after undergoing a series of rigorous cryogenic tests at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News) is the prime contractor for JWST, leading a team in the design and development under contract to NASA Goddard Space Flight Center.

Test results verified that the Backplane Stability Test Article (BSTA) has met the criteria necessary to demonstrate Technology Readiness Level (TRL) 6. TRL is a measure used by NASA and other government agencies to assess the maturity of evolving technologies before they are incorporated into operational systems. Achieving TRL 6 means that a representative model or prototype item has been successfully tested in a relevant environment (simulating space) and is ready to move into the final design phase.

ToSeek
2007-Jan-26, 12:38 AM
NASA Creates Microscopic Technology for Webb Space Telescope (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=21748)


NASA engineers and scientists building the James Webb Space Telescope have created a new telescope technology called "microshutters." Microshutters are tiny doorways the width of a few hairs that will allow the telescope to view the most distant stars and galaxies humans have ever seen.

The microshutters will enable scientists to mask unwanted light from foreground objects so the telescope can focus on the faint light of the first stars and galaxies that formed in the universe. Only the Webb Telescope has this technology. The Webb Telescope will launch in the next decade.

In December 2006, the microshutters passed crucial environmental testing to demonstrate that they can withstand the rigors of launching and placement in deep space. NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., designed, tested and built the instrument technology. The microshutters will work in conjunction with the telescope's Near Infrared Spectrograph that is being built by the European Space Agency.

ToSeek
2007-Jan-30, 06:33 PM
James Webb Space Telescope's 'Spine' Passes Health Tests (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070130091950.htm)


The "spine" of the James Webb Space Telescope, called the backplane, is in great health for space, according to scientists and engineers. Recent tests show that the backplane, which supports the big mirrors of the telescope, can handle its trip into space and operate correctly when the observatory launches in 2013.

ToSeek
2007-Feb-07, 09:16 PM
NASA's Largest Space Telescope Mirror Will See Deeper Into Space (http://www.physorg.com/news90084957.html)


When scientists are looking into space, the more they can see, the easier it is to piece together the puzzle of the cosmos. The James Webb Space Telescope's mirror blanks have now been constructed. When polished and assembled, together they will form a mirror whose area is over seven times larger than the Hubble Telescope's mirror.

Worth visiting the link just to see the comparison between the two mirrors.

parallaxicality
2007-Feb-08, 08:18 PM
Not to sound facecious or anything, but have they learned from Hubble? I mean this time there would be no fixit if they got it wrong.

ToSeek
2007-Feb-08, 10:05 PM
The main lesson from Hubble is to use at least two independent devices to test your mirror, and to do some double-checking if one of them indicates there's a problem.

Launch window
2007-Feb-21, 12:08 PM
NASA's Largest Space Telescope Mirror Will See Deeper Into Space
http://www.photonicsonline.com/content/news/article.asp?DocID=%7BC6487110-0A95-471E-BC5D-1AC054EA67B1%7D&Bucket=Current+Headlines&VNETCOOKIE=NO

ToSeek
2007-May-02, 07:17 PM
New Technologies for James Webb Space Telescope Approved Early (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/may/HQ_07096_JWST_technology_approval.html)


More than a year ahead of schedule, a team of independent experts has approved all ten new technologies developed for NASA's James Webb Space Telescope. Many of the technologies are revolutionary and have never before been used on any satellite or space telescope. The early approval can reduce the risk of increased costs and schedule delays before the program is approved for further development.

NASA commissioned the team of engineers, scientists and project managers to conduct the technical review. The group evaluated the telescope's near and mid-infrared detectors, sunshield materials, lightweight cryogenic mirrors, microshutter arrays, cryogenic detector readout application-specific integrated circuits, cryogenic heat switches, a large precision cryogenic structure, a cryocooler for the mid-infrared instrument, and wavefront sensing and control. They determined the technologies were tested successfully in a space-like environment and are mature enough to include on the telescope's upcoming mission.

cigarbreathe
2007-May-03, 07:49 AM
cool, very cool

Nicolas
2007-May-03, 08:18 AM
cryogenically cool

ToSeek
2007-May-08, 07:45 PM
Full-Scale Model of the James Webb Space Telescope to be Displayed On the National Mall, May 10-12 (http://www.primenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=119052)


Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) is displaying a full-scale model of the James Webb Space Telescope on the National Mall in conjunction with Public Service Recognition Week from May 10 to May 12. The model will be on the Mall near the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum.

The public is invited to view the full-scale, tennis-court sized model, talk to scientists about the next generation space telescope, learn about its mission, and build subscale Webb Telescope models using Lego(r) blocks.

Launch window
2007-May-09, 01:22 AM
I've already seen some photos

http://www.st.northropgrumman.com/media/SiteFiles/mediagallery/mediaimage/jwst_full-scale-model_sm.jpg

It looks great

ToSeek
2007-May-09, 03:50 AM
They had the model at Goddard last year. I've got some photos of it someplace.

Nicolas
2007-May-09, 08:33 AM
That looks really neat. I assume having a folded open model would be a bit harder? What we see now is the closed mirror and the CCD on top of that, right?


The public is invited to view the full-scale, tennis-court sized model

The RLE unit system is really gaining ground! :D

Hamlet
2007-May-09, 03:13 PM
I've already seen some photos

http://www.st.northropgrumman.com/media/SiteFiles/mediagallery/mediaimage/jwst_full-scale-model_sm.jpg

It looks great

Nice shot!

Here (http://www.csh.rit.edu/~steve/JWST/index.html) are some photos I took when the JWST model was on display at the Rochester Museum and Science Center (http://www.rmsc.org/) in August of 2005.

Nicolas
2007-May-09, 05:06 PM
Looking at those photo's, I now see that my first interpretation of the model was wrong. I saw the sunshield as the folded mirror. My bad.

Very neat, futuristic scope they've got there! I hope all the unfolding goes fine. Side panels of the first mirror, sunshield, secondary mirror struts...it's got quite some things to unfold up there :). It must have been quite a nightmare just to make sure it all survives the launch loads.

It does have quite small solar panels, especially compared to Hubble. Then again, at its orbit it isn't plagued by eclipse half of the time :).

What do the ""sunshield containment fields" and "sunshield containment cells" do?

parallaxicality
2007-May-09, 06:07 PM
Can't speak. Mustn't jinx it... Can't speak. Mustn't jinx it... Can't speak. Mustn't jinx it... Can't speak. Mustn't jinx it... Can't speak. Mustn't jinx it...

Paracelsus
2007-May-10, 09:27 AM
Ok, I'm new here, but I wanted to get this up quickly for the members in the DC area: the Smithsonian has a true-to-size mock-up of the James Webb telescope on display on the Mall in DC. I don't know how long it will be there, but, if you live or are travelling to the DC area, you should take the opportunity to go see it if possible. I saw it yesterday morning as I was running on the Mall, and it was INCREDIBLE!! I don't have a link with info to post, sorry!

[MOVED BY MODERATOR FROM A LESS APPROPRIATE THREAD]

ToSeek
2007-May-10, 09:52 PM
Hubble telescope successor on target (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070510/sc_nm/nasa_telescope_dc_1)


The James Webb Space Telescope, intended to peer deep into the cosmos from beyond the moon, is progressing well in development and is on track for a planned June 2013 launch, officials said on Thursday.

Edward Weiler, head of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, said after cost overruns a couple of years ago, the project has met every technical, cost and schedule milestone for the past 20 months. The launch date already has slipped from 2011.

ToSeek
2007-May-14, 08:48 PM
James Webb Space Telescope: Boldly Peeking Where No Man Has Peeked Before (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/galactic-peeping-tom/james-webb-space-telescope-boldly-peeking-where-no-man-has-peeked-before-259593.php)


This is the James Webb Space Telescope, NASA's new infrared peeping Tom and part of the effort to replace Hubble. It looks like an Imperial Star Destroyer and it seems just as big. OK, maybe it's not Enterprise-fire-your-transphasic-torpedoes huge, but as you can see in this impressive actual-scale model, it is giganormous: At 80ft (24m) long and 40ft (12m or three stories) high, the JWST is big enough to make you wonder how are they going to put this in space in one piece.

The answer is origami. Everything, from the thermal shield to its 21.3 feet diameter hexagonal mirror, is tightly packed to fit in its launcher. And you won't have to go 930,000 miles from Earth to see it automagically unfold, because we've got the video right after the jump.

Lots of cool imagery.

ToSeek
2007-May-24, 01:17 AM
NASA Adds Docking Capability For Next Space Observatory (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/070523_techwed_jwst_dock.html)


NASA is adding a docking ring to the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) just in case a visit by astronauts aboard a future Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle is needed to complete deployment of the multibillion-dollar orbiting observatory. The U.S. space agency made the announcement May 10 during the unveiling of a full-scale model of the JWST on the National Mall here.

Noclevername
2007-May-24, 01:29 AM
Half of Hubble's cost, and yet we still can't afford to make it serviceable? Sad, sad times.

ToSeek
2007-May-24, 01:43 AM
Half of Hubble's cost, and yet we still can't afford to make it serviceable? Sad, sad times.

It's not in a position to be serviced by present technology, so there's not much point.

Lord Jubjub
2007-May-24, 03:39 AM
If it is going to be serviced, it will be with the moon-bound vehicle, Orion. Wow, can you imagine a servicing mission in the true depth of the solar system?

antoniseb
2007-May-25, 10:23 PM
If it gets serviced, it will be serviced robotically.

Noclevername
2007-May-25, 10:30 PM
It's not in a position to be serviced by present technology, so there's not much point.

...By now, if it had developed at the pace it was promised, our present technolgy should've allowed us to reach halfway to Pluto.:cry:

Launch window
2007-May-26, 11:37 AM
Youtubed rom the BA ( Full-scale JWST model at astronomy meeting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zmHaIR9sHA

Nicolas
2007-May-28, 05:23 PM
If it gets serviced, it will be serviced robotically.

The ring is intended for manned, crude servicing (giving a jammed part a good kick with a hammer, so to speak).


Half of Hubble's cost, and yet we still can't afford to make it serviceable? Sad, sad times.


I don't get your point; JWST is half as expensive as Hubble largely because it is not (fully) serviceable. Did you simply mean it's sad we don't have the money for a mission such as Hubble now?

Noclevername
2007-May-28, 05:36 PM
Did you simply mean it's sad we don't have the money for a mission such as Hubble now?

Yes.

Nicolas
2007-May-28, 06:34 PM
OK, all clear then :).

Launch window
2007-Nov-18, 07:10 AM
Customized Telemetry System For The James Webb Space Telescope Successful
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Customized_Telemetry_System_For_The_James_Webb_Spa ce_Telescope_Successful_999.html

ToSeek
2007-Nov-18, 02:29 PM
Customized Telemetry System For The James Webb Space Telescope Successful
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Customized_Telemetry_System_For_The_James_Webb_Spa ce_Telescope_Successful_999.html

My primary work assignment involves producing software to support that system and make sure it works.

ToSeek
2007-Dec-04, 03:50 PM
NASA James Webb Space Telescope Marks Successful Completion of Optical Telescope Element Design Review (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=24170)


A preliminary design review has concluded and verified the integrated performance of all subsystems in the Optical Telescope Element on NASA's James Webb Space Telescope.

The Optical Telescope Element or OTE is the "eye" of the Webb Observatory. The telescope consists of a 6.5-meter (21.3 foot) primary mirror; secondary, tertiary and fine steering mirrors; and supporting structures, deployable tower and control electronics.

"The successful completion of the Optical Telescope Element Preliminary Design Review is a significant milestone in the telescope development which demonstrates it's full feasibility and which allows the team to move on to final, detailed designs," said Lee Feinberg, James Webb Space Telescope Optical Telescope Element Manager at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.

"Meeting rigorous technology development requirements and successfully completing component design reviews earlier this year have given us confidence that the telescope will perform its mission within our cost and schedule commitments," said Martin Mohan, JWST program manager for Northrop Grumman's Space Technology sector. Northrop Grumman is NASA's prime contactor for the Webb Telescope, leading the design and development effort under contract to NASA Goddard.

tlbs101
2007-Dec-04, 05:13 PM
I just finished several other projects, so now I can finally jump in on (hardware) circuit design for some JWST spacecraft control systems. My company is under contract to deliver several avionics 'boxes' for various functions.

I'd rather be working on the CEV/Orion/Ares stuff, but that may still come in the future, and working on JWST is still 'cool' stuff.

.

antoniseb
2007-Dec-04, 06:35 PM
I'd rather be working on the CEV/Orion/Ares stuff, but that may still come in the future, and working on JWST is still 'cool' stuff.


CEV is bigger money, but I think that JWST is much cooler than the manned stuff (I'm not making a temperature joke). What JWST will see is going to be incredible.

ToSeek
2007-Dec-11, 05:22 PM
James Webb Space Telescope Marks Successful Completion (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071204175742.htm)


A preliminary design review has concluded and verified the integrated performance of all subsystems in the Optical Telescope Element on NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope.

The Optical Telescope Element or OTE is the "eye" of the Webb Observatory. The telescope consists of a 6.5-meter (21.3 foot) primary mirror; secondary, tertiary and fine steering mirrors; and supporting structures, deployable tower and control electronics.

publiusr
2007-Dec-14, 07:05 PM
CEV is bigger money, but I think that JWST is much cooler than the manned stuff (I'm not making a temperature joke). What JWST will see is going to be incredible.

Provided it doesn't get stuck when it tries to deploy, as Galileo's dish did.

tlbs101
2008-Mar-12, 04:31 PM
I'm excited! I just completed my first design for the JWST. It's not much -- an internal telemetry board in the power control unit -- but it's 'something'.

Next up, will be another type of telemetry board, then a heater control board.

.

ToSeek
2008-Mar-20, 07:08 PM
NASA's Webb Telescope sunshield preliminary design review complete (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/nsfc-nwt032008.php)


The tennis court-sized sunshield built by Northrop Grumman for NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope has completed its preliminary design review at the company’s Space Technology facility.

The Webb Telescope is the next-generation space observatory, designed to explore phenomena from distant galaxies to nearby planets and stars. From the origins of the universe to the formation of star systems capable of supporting life on planets such as Earth, the Webb telescope will give scientists unprecedented access to unexplored regions of space.

"The sunshield is absolutely critical to the Webb telescope mission" says Keith Parrish, JWST Sunshield Manager at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "It will be folded up around the telescope when the telescope is aboard its rocket during launch. The sunshield will then deploy in space to shade the sensitive, precision telescope optics and science instruments from the Sun and enable the observatory to reach its proper operating temperature and environment. Without it, the telescope and instruments can’t work. Northrop Grumman is leveraging their experience in large deployable structures in space to come up with a design that will do the job for the Webb telescope."

tlbs101
2008-Jun-13, 06:11 PM
I found this diagram of the satellite bus internal modules.
http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/images/bus3.jpg

So, I annotated it with the stuff I am designing.
http://wsuphotos.tompounds.com/images/A_8/7/3/3/13378/_JWSTbus3_annotated_94327.JPG

I thought another branch of my company was building the Reaction Wheels, but it turns out they aren't, after-all.
.

ToSeek
2009-Feb-10, 08:26 PM
James Webb Space Telescope's Actual "Spine" Now Being Built (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=27539)


Scientists and engineers who have been working on the James Webb Space Telescope mission for years are getting very excited, because some of the actual pieces that will fly aboard the Webb telescope are now being built. One of the pieces, called the Backplane, is like a "spine" to the telescope. The Backplane is now being assembled by Alliant Techsystems at its Magna, Utah facility.

ToSeek
2009-Sep-17, 02:43 AM
JWST Starting to Take Shape at Goddard Center (http://news.softpedia.com/news/JWST-Starting-to-Take-Shape-at-Goddard-Center-121797.shtml)


The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) is one of the most ambitious observatories ever planned. Designed to work in infrared wavelengths, it will be a partial successor to the famous Hubble Space Telescope. The JWST, which will be able to see the most distant objects in the Universe with the utmost precision, took another step forward recently, when the Integrated Science Instrument Module (ISIM) structure, the backbone of the telescope, arrived at the Spacecraft Systems Development and Integration Facility, at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, in Greenbelt, Maryland.

JWST is taking over! The ISIM is sitting in Goddard's big clean room, which used to be almost exclusively for Hubble from the day it went operational until just recently.

ToSeek
2009-Oct-29, 08:33 PM
Eye Of JWST Marks Major Milestone As Mission Moves Forward (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Eye_Of_JWST_Marks_Major_Milestone_As_Mission_Moves _Forward_999.html)


The telescope element of NASA's James Webb Space Telescope (JWST), built by Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC - News), has successfully passed a critical design review verifying it will perform as designed, and now moves forward to final manufacturing steps and integration of all subsystems.

The Optical Telescope Element (OTE), which is the eye of the Observatory, includes a giant, 6.5-meter diameter (21.3 ft.) mirror, associated mirrors and support structures.

"Completion of this review is very significant because it provides validation that the telescope element design of the Observatory meets all performance requirements," said Scott Willoughby, JWST Program Manager for Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems sector.

danscope
2009-Nov-04, 01:18 AM
Waiting for 2014 is like waiting for chrismas! Now that's a launch we'd like to see!!

Dan

ToSeek
2010-Apr-28, 07:19 PM
Webb Telescope Passes Mission Milestone (http://www.physorg.com/news191685040.html)


NASA's James Webb Space Telescope has passed its most significant mission milestone to date, the Mission Critical Design Review, or MCDR. This signifies the integrated observatory will meet all science and engineering requirements for its mission.

All the Hubble stuff has finally been kicked out of Goddard's big clean room, where it's been pretty much since the clean room went operational.

Hop_David
2010-Apr-28, 08:05 PM
Hope WISE finds a few brown dwarves in our neighborhood. That would make some juicy targets for JWST!

tlbs101
2010-Apr-29, 08:48 PM
Webb Telescope Passes Mission Milestone (http://www.physorg.com/news191685040.html)



All the Hubble stuff has finally been kicked out of Goddard's big clean room, where it's been pretty much since the clean room went operational.


From the same article:
The spacecraft design, which passed a preliminary review in 2009, will continue toward final approval next year.

That sounds about right.

I just signed off my first flight drawing package, yesterday, and am frantically working with the draftsman/designer to get 3 more flight drawing packages released in the next 2 weeks.
It's all down to crossing "t's" and dotting "i's", or in this case not only crossing the "t" but making sure the cross is exactly parallel with the bottom of the margin and the cross is exactly 1/4 of the way down from the top of the letter.

Upper management has given me responsibility for a whole line unit called the TAU. So, besides 6 individual module designs, I also have all the extra responsibility of a whole line unit.

.

ToSeek
2010-Jun-15, 08:49 PM
NASA flash animation comparing Hubble and JWST:

http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/webb_hubble/

danscope
2010-Jun-16, 02:29 AM
Thank you for the link. Most interesting.

Dan

tlbs101
2010-Jun-17, 10:29 PM
The components of the Electrical Power System (EPS); the Power Control Unit (PCU), Solar Array Regulator (SAR), and an auxilliary Telemetry Acquisition Unit (TAU) completed a Critical Design Review (CDR) today (a major overall JWST project milestone). Project managers and technical folk from Northrop Grumman and NASA Goddard were on hand for the past 3 days to review the design and to judge whether these designs are ready for building the actual flight hardware.

My engineering-model TAU was on display, fully functional, only missing two modules (which are in fabrication). Portions of the other two units were also on the bench for display. Many of their functions have already been successfully tested.

Woo hoo!!

In the overall telescope system these units might be the most mundane, but I am excited to be working on them, nonetheless.

.

ToSeek
2010-Jul-27, 07:43 PM
James Webb Space Telescope Completes Cryogenic Mirror Test (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=31323)


Recently, six James Webb Space Telescope beryllium mirror segments completed a series of cryogenic tests at the X-ray & Cryogenic Facility at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.

During testing, the mirrors were subjected to extreme temperatures dipping to -415 degrees Fahrenheit, permitting NASA contractor engineers to measure in extreme detail how the shape of the mirror changes as it cools.

With those measurements, the mirrors will be shipped to Tinsley Corp. in Redmond, Calif., for final surface polishing at room temperature. Using those "surface error" measurements, each mirror will then be polished in the opposite of the surface error values observed, so when the mirror goes through the next round of cryogenic testing, at Marshall, it should "distort" into a perfect shape.

The facility at Marshall is the world's largest X-ray telescope test facility and a unique site for cryogenic, clean-room optical testing.

infocat13
2010-Jul-28, 11:58 PM
Hope WISE finds a few brown dwarves in our neighborhood. That would make some juicy targets for JWST!

and if the brown dwarves light source dims and brightens with a pattern, its got planets right? :):)
oops thats Kepler!

parallaxicality
2010-Jul-29, 06:16 AM
I'm still PO'ed they named it after a NASA admin. What? Had every famous astronomer been used already? And why not just call it "Hubble II"? That's what everyone else is going to call it.

bunker9603
2010-Jul-29, 12:54 PM
Had every famous astronomer been used already?

How about Sagan Space Scope or:

Carl Sagan-

Cosmology And Really Large Scopes Answer Giant Agonizing Nuiances

:)

mugaliens
2010-Jul-31, 07:50 AM
I'm still PO'ed they named it after a NASA admin. What?.

What? I thought they'd named it after the creator and star of Dragnet...

tlbs101
2010-Aug-01, 05:09 AM
What? I thought they'd named it after the creator and star of Dragnet...


Geez, now that you have that stuck in my head, I'll probably be calling it by it's new name, the JACK Webb space telescope.
When NGAS folks call me I'll ask for, "just the facts, just the facts."

ToSeek
2010-Aug-11, 08:32 PM
Webb Space Telescope promises new look at universe — if NASA can get it into space (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-webb-telescope-problems-20100809,0,6212334,full.story)


When it works, and if it works, the James Webb Space Telescope could revolutionize astronomy by peering so deep into space that scientists soon could study the dawn of time.

But construction of NASA's next big telescope has been so hurt by delays and cost overruns that even its staunchest champion in Congress reached a breaking point.

In a letter dated June 29, U.S. Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., all but ordered NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden to assemble a panel of outside experts to ensure the Webb project doesn't break its latest promise: a 2014 launch on a $5 billion budget.

ToSeek
2010-Sep-28, 08:45 PM
NASA's Webb Telescope unique structural 'heart' passes extreme tests (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-09/nsfc-nwt092810.php)


NASA engineers have created a unique engineering marvel called the ISIM structure that recently survived exposure to extreme cryogenic temperatures, proving that the structure will remain stable when exposed to the harsh environment of space. The material that comprises the structure, as well as the bonding techniques used to join its roughly 900 structural components, were all created from scratch.

The ISIM, or the Integrated Science Instrument Module Flight Structure, will serve as the structural "heart" of the James Webb Space Telescope. The ISIM is a large bonded composite assembly made of a light weight material that has never been used before to support high precision optics at the extreme cold temperatures of the Webb observatory.

Imagine a place colder than Pluto where rubber behaves like glass and where most gasses are liquid. The place is called a Lagrange point and is nearly one million miles from Earth, where the Webb telescope will orbit. At this point in space, the Webb telescope can observe the whole sky while always remaining in the shadow of its tennis-court-sized sunshield. Webb's components need to survive temperatures that plunge as low as 27 Kelvin (-411 degrees Fahrenheit), and it is in this environment that the ISIM structure met its design requirements during recent testing. "It is the first large, bonded composite space flight structure to be exposed to such a severe environment," said Jim Pontius, ISIM lead mechanical engineer at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

Swift
2010-Sep-28, 09:11 PM
The material science is pretty interesting too.

The Goddard team of engineers discovered that by combining two composite fiber materials, they could create a carbon fiber/cyanate-ester resin system that would be ideal for fabricating the structure's 75-mm (3-inch) diameter square tubes. This was confirmed through mathematical computer modeling and rigorous testing. The system combines two currently existing composite materials — T300 and M55J — to create the unique composite laminate.

To assemble the ISIM structure, the team found it could bond the pieces together using a combination of nickel-iron alloy fittings, clips, and specially shaped composite plates joined with a novel adhesive process, smoothly distributing launch loads while holding all instruments in precise locations — a difficult engineering challenge because different materials react differently to changes in temperature. The metal fittings also are unique. They are as heavy as steel and weak as aluminum, but offer very low expansion characteristics, which allowed the team to bond together the entire structure with a special adhesive system.

publiusr
2010-Sep-28, 09:32 PM
That is where mass actually helps you. The more flimsy something is, the more it can warp.

CJSF
2010-Sep-29, 08:36 PM
For some reason I laughed at "heavy as steel and weak as aluminum." :)

CJSF

ToSeek
2010-Oct-01, 08:55 PM
NASA's Webb telescope MIRI instrument takes one step closer to space (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-10/nsfc-nwt100110.php)


A major instrument due to fly aboard NASA's James Webb Space Telescope is getting its first taste of space in the test facilities at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory (RAL) in the United Kingdom. The Mid-InfraRed Instrument (MIRI) has been designed to contribute to areas of investigation as diverse as the first light in the early Universe and the formation of planets around other stars.

"The start of space simulation testing of the MIRI is the last major engineering activity needed to enable its delivery to NASA. It represents the culmination of 8 years of work by the MIRI consortium, and is a major progress milestone for the Webb telescope project," said Matt Greenhouse, NASA Project Scientist for the Webb telescope Integrated Science Instrument Module, at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.

ToSeek
2011-Nov-30, 03:11 PM
What the James Webb Space Telescope looks like right now (well, Tuesday, November 22, 2011):

15879

This is the Integrated Science Instrument Module (ISIM) with the Engineering Test Unit (ETU) for the Fine Guidance Sensors (FGS).

Our next big milestone is supposed to come in March, when the MIRI instrument arrives.

danscope
2011-Nov-30, 08:15 PM
Hi, Thanks for the update. It is going to be magnificent.

Best regards,
Dan

ToSeek
2013-Mar-15, 08:54 PM
NASA's Webb Telescope Gets Its Wings (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2013/mar/HQ_13-072_JWST_Mirror_Wings.html)


A massive backplane that will hold the primary mirror of NASA's James Webb Space Telescope nearly motionless while it peers into space is another step closer to completion with the recent assembly of the support structure's wings.

The wings enable the mirror, made of 18 pieces of beryllium, to fold up and fit inside a 16.4-foot (5-meter) fairing on a rocket, and then unfold to 21 feet in diameter after the telescope is delivered to space. All that is left to build is the support fixture that will house an integrated science instrument module, and technicians will connect the wings and the backplane's center section to the rest of the observatory. The center section was completed in April 2012.

"This is another milestone that helps move Webb closer to its launch date in 2018," said Geoff Yoder, NASA's James Webb Space Telescope program director, NASA Headquarters, Washington.

Launch window
2015-Dec-25, 05:41 AM
reddit science section

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3xp92g/askscience_ama_series_im_lee_feinberg_optical/

Swift
2016-Jan-28, 03:32 PM
Article from R&D magazine about the mirror assembly (http://www.rdmag.com/news/2016/01/nasa-webb-telescope-mirrors-installed-robotic-arm-precision?et_cid=5080946&et_rid=54636800&location=top&et_cid=5080946&et_rid=54636800&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rdmag.com%2fnews%2f2016%2f 01%2fnasa-webb-telescope-mirrors-installed-robotic-arm-precision%3fet_cid%3d5080946%26et_rid%3d%%subscrib erid%%%26location%3dtop)


Inside a massive clean room at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland the James Webb Space Telescope team is steadily installing the largest space telescope mirror ever. Unlike other space telescope mirrors, this one must be pieced together from segments using a high-precision robotic arm.

The team uses a robotic arm called the Primary Mirror Alignment and Integration Fixture to lift and lower each of Webb's 18 primary flight mirror segments to their locations on the telescope structure. Each of the mirrors is made with beryllium, chosen for its properties to withstand the super cold temperatures of space. Each segment also has a thin gold coating to reflect infrared light. These mirror segments will function as one when the telescope is in orbit.

"In order for the combination of mirror segments to function as a single mirror they must be placed within a few millimeters of one another, to fraction-of-a-millimeter accuracy. A human operator cannot place the mirrors that accurately, so we developed a robotic system to do the assembly," said NASA's James Webb Space Telescope Program Director Eric Smith, at Headquarters in Washington.

publiusr
2016-Jan-30, 09:25 PM
it was a pain getting that beryllium too. They almost ate Tim Allen.

bknight
2016-Jan-31, 11:25 AM
Here's to hoping they get the alignment correct to avoid another black eye.

parallaxicality
2016-Jan-31, 02:34 PM
Not saying anything, just sanding in a corner, looking at the walls...

danscope
2016-Jan-31, 05:04 PM
I wonder: How would we make corrections in situ....ie once it's up there? Is it possible? Is it an active mirror which enjoys subtle
electronic commands to re-align it's shape ? Just curious.

ngc3314
2016-Jan-31, 08:12 PM
Each mirror segment has 7 actuators bonded to its back, which allow tip/tilt alignment and focal-plane matching ("piston") adjustment, with the centerline giving some ability to tweak the curvature of each segment (more details (http://jwst.nasa.gov/mirrors.html)). Subsets of the segment were tested in a large cryogenic vacuum tank arguably built for the Chandra observatory, to verify that the curvature was correct at the cryogenic operating temperatures (since fabrication was at room temperature so the figured surface had to allow for the huge temperature difference). This was going on in 2011 when the massive April 27 tornado outbreak brought down the power lines between the nearby TVA nuclear plant and NASA Marshall - teams were busy keeping generators fed until things could be warmed slowly enough to avoid damage to the segments.

This one for publiusr - the beryllium segments began life at the then-Axsys facility in Cullman, Alabama, where 95% of each blank was machined away inside big vacuum tanks to keep the beryllium dust under control. I got to see 13 of them in various stages of machining there.

publiusr
2016-Jan-31, 08:44 PM
Cullman--wow--that I didn't know. Thanks.

ngc3314
2016-Jan-31, 09:14 PM
Cullman--wow--that I didn't know. Thanks.

Big corrugated metal thing, looks like a warehouse, across I-65 from Cracker Barrel. IIRC, they've now been taken over by General Dynamics or someone. Handy for all your low-expansion space optics, lightweight mirror, and reactor neutron-reflector needs.

CJSF
2016-Feb-01, 03:54 PM
Subsets of the segment were tested in a large cryogenic vacuum tank arguably built for the Chandra observatory...

Why "arguably"? Wouldn't that be documented somewhere?

CJSF