PDA

View Full Version : between ice ages



Tinaa
2003-Nov-03, 04:23 AM
I read a book awhile back about a thriving technological society in full bloom before the last ice age. The work was pure fiction but thought provoking. Maybe the last ice age wiped out all signs of the civilization and the only survivers became the hunter/gatherers of our early history. Would there be any signs or would the glaciers have ground everything into tiny bits of nothing? According to the ice core samples, ice ages occur fairly often on our little world. If the next one is particularly harsh, how could we save ourselves? Could we survive?

QJones
2003-Nov-03, 09:04 AM
Well, yes and no.

If you put me, right now, on a glacier ... well, I'd die pretty quick and maybe only some bacteria living on my skin would adapt to the new conditions.

But, the next ice age is a looong way off. And I'm of the opinion that most environmental threats can be countered by technology. If we (as a species) develop enough technology in time - which is quite reasonable - then the threat of an ice age will be trivial.

I'm pretty sure a previous civilisation would be detectable - even after 100,000 years - if their construction technologies were rather advanced. I can see how houses would be eroded to nothing, etc., but things like "Fort Knox" would kinda stick out - piles of purified gold all placed together. knowwhatimean?

kashi
2003-Nov-03, 12:15 PM
Qjones,

From what I've read, geologically speaking we are actually overdue for another ice age (based on drilling kilometres down into the ice caps, a pattern was discovered...10000 years of warm, 90000 years of cold etc....the last ice age ended roughly 10000 years ago).

There are several theories about previous civilisations on Earth. Many conspriracy theorists go crazy about this, although as yet there is nothing to substantiate these claims (coverup maybe :P ). I heard somewhere that a nuclear reactor was found in an archeological dig in a part of Africa. This was supposedly revealed after a third world country was mysteriously exporting large quantities of highly enriched Uranium. I am a little suspicious about this claims obviously.

You must also wonder how the Pyrimids of Eygpt could have been constructed without technology? The architecture is highly advanced....every block fits together perfectly, even with complex networks of tunnels.

Matthew
2003-Nov-04, 07:22 AM
Would there be any signs or would the glaciers have ground everything into tiny bits of nothing?

I would have thought that somwhere we would have found something by now. Maybe its all still there too be found.

Planetwatcher
2003-Nov-04, 07:54 AM
Surviving an ice age won't be too hard if you are from the more northern lattitudes. :D
Yup, up here in the north we are just about due for our annual ice age, which most people laughingly call winter. :D
I understand Vancover is expecting a long winter. :rolleyes:
You got any snow yet Fraiser? :P
If so, you know it's going to stay till what, maybe late May? :lol:

I'd better cut it out before the folks down south start wanting to throw snowballs at me. Or worse yet maybe rocks. :lol:

Matthew
2003-Nov-04, 08:41 AM
Surviving an ice age won't be too hard if you are from the more northern lattitudes.

It'd be hard if you were too far south.

Eventually we might have the technology to manipulate the weather itslf preventing such a thing.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-05, 02:36 AM
I agree with Kashi... I've read on more than a few occasions that we're long overdue for an ice age and that the warmer periods are fewer and shorter...

RE evidence of prior civilisations... like Mulder, I want to believe... I would love for there to have been an Atlantis and I honestly hope there was because I'm clinging to the romantic notion than humankind can be much better than it's been for the past 6 or 7 thousand years... but as it's been said, surely we'd have found something by now?

The Pyramids are interesting... I'm not convinced the Egyptians built them but at the same time, if I had to choose between them and a long lost civilisations, I'd pick the cat-worshippers any day. There just isn't enough evidence to suggest a prior (or alien) civilisation built them.

What's most interesting is that we can't build the Pyramids now, with technology that's (allegedly) 6,000 years more advanced. So what are we doing wrong?

kashi
2003-Nov-05, 03:49 AM
This is a great article about ice ages etc:
http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/020107fa_FACT

One of the best scientific articles I have read actually.

zephyr46
2003-Nov-06, 02:40 AM
NOAA (http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/glaciation.html)

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2163646.stm)

Nature (http://www.nature.com/nsu/020819/020819-9.html)

I read somewhere, that we were still coming out of the last Ice Age. Haven't found it yet. :(

Tinaa
2003-Nov-07, 03:33 AM
I read The Life and Death of Earth (or something like that) and the ice age it described was not survivable. I believe that the so called "global warming" is actually a natural phenomenon that precedes an ice age. Not that South Texas will is going to freeze over soon, but maybe in several thousand years. A cold front did blow in today and the high temp was a cool 69 F.

Josh
2003-Nov-07, 05:31 AM
Ohhh Tinaa! You better start buying lots of cans of baked beans. That cool wind is only beginning.

I wonder, though, why an ice age would be unsurvivable. That seems a little odd. If the cycle times are correct and evolution is correct then 90,000 years of ice age and 10,000 off isn't very much time for evolution to change things all that much. Mammals must survive ice ages or we wouldn't be here now. 90,000 years isn't even that long a time evolutionly speakng. So the evolution during an ice age of any species would also be quite minor. Yet ... here we are. mammals and reptiles (who need warmth to warm their blood) in all sorts of shapes and forms.

Matthew
2003-Nov-07, 10:32 AM
Overnight we would not find ourselves in the middle of an ice age. It would take time, precautions could be made, plans could be formulated. But life would be altered significantly.

Didn't us humans evolve from Africa, which is fairly equatorial. If any place would stay warm, it would be the equator. So maybe humans have survived an ice age before.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-08, 03:17 AM
I always thought it was the Ice Age that allowed primitive man to (literally) walk into the US from Russia and into Australia from Asia...

...once the ice receded, they found themselves trapped there and became the Native Americans and Aborigines...

...or was I totally lied to by James Buerk in his "After The Warming" eco-documentary?? :D

starrman
2003-Nov-08, 10:17 AM
Unless my understanding of geological and archaeological information is way off base, ice ages (or at least the more recent ones) are eminently survivable. The most recent ice age is still in the process of ending, and numerous artifacts survive from previous eras. The role of ice ages in the arrival of humans in the Americas is still somewhat controversial, but delicately formed flints (so-called Folsom points and others) have been recovered in North America and reliably dated to c. 30,000 bce, and I'm fairly sure that digs in South America have pushed dates for human habitation back beyond 50,000 bce, well prior to the last ice age.

Clear skies.

Haglund
2003-Nov-08, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Tinaa@Nov 3 2003, 04:23 AM
I read a book awhile back about a thriving technological society in full bloom before the last ice age. The work was pure fiction but thought provoking. Maybe the last ice age wiped out all signs of the civilization and the only survivers became the hunter/gatherers of our early history. Would there be any signs or would the glaciers have ground everything into tiny bits of nothing? According to the ice core samples, ice ages occur fairly often on our little world. If the next one is particularly harsh, how could we save ourselves? Could we survive?
Even though an iceage would crush a lot of our civilization quite badly there would still be lots of remains left for future archaeologists to study... And yes I do think that if we get a few centuries of time, then we could develop technology enough to stop an iceage, possibly.

Tinaa
2003-Nov-08, 03:20 PM
From the little I know, greenhouse gases are what keeps our world warm enough to support life as we know it. Runaway greenhouse gases give is the world Venus, and too little Mars. Why, then, the big deal over greenhouse gases today? Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas. Remove Co2 a nd the others and we have another Mars on our hands.

QJones
2003-Nov-08, 03:52 PM
There's a LOT of C02 on earth, but the thing is, most of it is chemically sealed in our surface rocks.

But, if these rocks were allowed to become a little hotter, the C02 would boil off - leading to more heat, and more boiling.

The theory is that (unlike a buffer solution), Earth has very little leeway when it comes to a runaway greenhouse effect. The warmer it gets, the more C02 will be released from the rocks.

eggplant
2003-Nov-12, 04:44 AM
While I'm certain we, or some one would survive an ice age in our time. I risk repeating myself from other threads... that I'd be far more worried about a rising ocean temperature/level in the forseeable future due to our pre-ice age warming trend. As most of the Great Plains of the US were once under water, they could be again. The evidence does point that direction at this time.
As for the Pyramids, Don't kid yourselves, with enough whips and slaves you CAN make everything fit perfectly... Granted they did a right fine job of it. It would be extremely difficult to recreate, but not impossible... We like to think it couldn't be human (reminds me of the ghost busters line "no human would stack books that way...") I also feel the sentiment like Mulder wanting to believe... And in many cases I do... Or at least I've experienced things science has not explained yet... And science could explain aliens... But the Pyramids? Please do me the favor of never expressing that opinion to the Egyptians... ;)
I hope I'm not sounding negative here...
As for the Archaelogical evidence, You guys are correct in your positions (It was my field) At least some of it would have been "snowed in" to the leading edge of the Ice sheets and pushed to the norhtern plains of the US... Since we have spent the last 200 years washing away the topsoil of that region and not found anything, I'm supposing there is nothing to find. I could be wrong, they're still digging mammoths out of the tundra in Siberia... I'm sure there's something to Atlantis, but you know how legends grow...

eggplant
2003-Nov-13, 04:21 AM
There is some evidence for atlantis, but it's only written accounts... I can't remember if it was Plato or Socrates... either way neither were persecuted for writing about Atlantis... I think it was something against the gods of their society. Like maybe the worlds not flat, and perhaps we are not the center of the universe? My memory escapes me... Senior moment... They even had evidence but were ruined by a beligerent power structure supporting the "ignorant" popular construction of the universe. It was as if they were not supposed to think about things. I wonder if their Gods Appollo, Athena, whoeverius, made it clear that unsanctified knowledge was not to be thought or if it was the people governing? Either way evidence is sketchy, mostly written word...

Tinaa
2003-Nov-13, 11:30 PM
How could we survive an ice age? Where would all the people go? How could we feed 6 billion+ people? I am sure we'll make strides in tech before then, but...what if we are still stuck on Earth? Ice ages are supposed to happen slowly, but according to some books and stuff I've read, ice ages may happen swiftly and that could be deadly.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-14, 01:12 AM
There's a programme about a possible Ice Age just around the corner that aired in the UK tonight - I recorded it but I haven't seen it yet because I'm at work. I'll have a squint at it and will post any interesting tidbits here :)

Dan Luna
2003-Nov-14, 05:30 PM
A classic "Horizon" frightener just like they used to show in the 70s. Having told us we're all doomed in 50 years, then reducing it to 20, they ended the program, only to tell us not to worry about it because next week's program is about a secret code in the B*ble revealing the world will end in 3 years!

kashi
2003-Nov-14, 11:03 PM
I'm sure humanity as a whole would survive, but obviously many people would die of starvation. In the last ice age, global temperatures were 8 degrees cooler on average. That's going to cause some issues in Europe, Russia and parts of North America, but maybe parts of Africa might become more habitable.

Maybe Australia will get more good ski seasons!

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-15, 02:29 AM
:lol: Dan, yeah, I thought that!!!

They did raise some valid points about the Gulf Stream though because from what (little) I know, it *does* act as a kind of thermostat... if that does stop, it could have quite serious consequences all round.

What they didn't say specifically (because it wouldn't have been so scary) is that even *if* you take it as read that the Gulf Stream will stop (sooner or later), nobody seems to know *when* it will stop.

Sure, it could be within 20 or 50 years but it also might not be for several hundred. All they said was that over the next few years they anticipate a *lot* more fresh water being dumped into the Gulf Stream and that as a result, the Gulf Stream would be slowed or even stopped completely.

In short, it was a lot of conjecture based around what we already know: the ice is melting and there's far more fresh water being dumped into the salty oceans.

I'll bet a fiver someone comes up with another theory and another model which basically says they've got it all wrong (again)

Josh
2003-Nov-15, 03:11 AM
If we can create large enough bio-domes or -cities then survival wouldn;t be a problem on Earth. Any ice age induced crush wouldn't just 'happen' one day. it would be very very gradual. Of course there's always the opportunity of setting up home somewhere else.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-15, 04:06 AM
Josh, one of the points raised in the programme last night was that of the Gulf Stream stops because the salt water is too light to sink when it reaches the Artic, then potentially the change could happen very quickly... although to be fair, depending on when it happened, it might only affect the UK and Scandanavia or additionally the north-western portions of Euope (including France)

It would have drastic effects on the rainfall elsewhere on the planet though, specifically central America (not the USA), which would effectively suffer severe drought.

Matthew
2003-Nov-15, 10:32 AM
A string of La Nina (not to be confused with El Nino) would lower the Earths temperature. Though, over the past 20 years we have had more El Nino (which increase the world's temperature) than La Nina.

This could be a factor in gloabal warming.

Planetwatcher
2003-Nov-15, 01:11 PM
I have some problem with the Atlantis thing, because if you removed the ocians so that the contenents were in direct contact with each other, you would find they all fit together like a global jigsaw puzzle.

As for actually surviving an ice age. I think many people will die, but human kind will survive under natures most primitive, and unfair but true natural law.
The strongest and fittest will survive the best and even thrive.
The weakest and sicklyist will die first and proabley most horribley.

But I would think the O zone depletion should be a bigger concern then another ice age or global warming.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-16, 02:52 AM
Am I right in thinking that ozone depletion is a factor in global warming though?

Tinaa
2003-Nov-16, 03:37 AM
Or perhaps global warming is affecting the O-zone layer. I know that humans are having a detrimental effect on our planet. However, volcanos are still causing much more harm to the atmosphere than all of our harnful emissions. Wasn;t that why Earth was so warm during the age of the dinosaur?

Planetwatcher
2003-Nov-16, 09:44 PM
It seemed to me like it had more to do with our use of airosel cans and Calforna's refusal to inforce automotive pollution standards then anything else, including global warming, volcanos, El Nino, the war in Iraq, or anything else. :unsure:

I thought the Earth being warmer during the age of dinosaurs was because the Earth wasn't tilted yet. But I believe we discussed the Earth's tilt before, in one of those strings which has since been closed. :blink:

starrman
2003-Nov-17, 09:13 PM
Just to keep the record clear, California currently has the most stringent air pollution standards in the U.S., and perhaps world-wide. Additionally, California has, since the late 1960's, had the most stringent general pollution standards (water, air, soil contamination) in the U.S.

Clear skies.

starrman
2003-Nov-17, 09:14 PM
Addendum to the previous post: http://www.cleanairstandards.org/article/a...eview/185/1/35/ (http://www.cleanairstandards.org/article/articleview/185/1/35/)

Clear skies.

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-21, 12:49 AM
Tinaa, I think things started going wrong for the dinosaurs when they became self-conscious enough to realise they had bad body odour and consequently invented deodorants chock full of CFC's....

...no, it's true... honest... :D

eggplant
2003-Nov-29, 08:39 PM
I feel there's some confusion about what an Ice age might look like... The areas of North America where the Glaciers lived.. are covered in 10 feet of snow every winter... The sheets do not necessarily "push" down from the north, but grow in sitiue, that is the snow doesn't melt... Granted, the farther north you move the faster the snow will be compacted into glacial ice and there's plenty of evidence that the glaciers do eventually, slide down the globe, but I think that probably has more to do with the altidude of the thicker northern sections building faster than the southern sections of what would become a contigious section of ice nearer the poles... As for humanity, I think the richer probably = the stronger in this senario... And while there would certainly be dire consequences for the population numbers, The smart real estate agents and Lawyers will probably increase in numbers comparatively...:P In the mean time we appear to still be locked in the pre-ice age warming trend... So buy land in the hills...
Dippy I hold the same theory re: the dinosaurs... We humans have only made temporary marks on the possible fossil record, in the last fifty years. Certainly a meteor size cataclysm (sp?) might only leave a black line in the geologic record of our "advanced ""civilization"" " ... There may have been a bill gates-o-raptor... But we won't know until we really fine tune our knowledge of the geologic nano-chemistry :\
And living a major portion of my life in California has taught me this... Yes we have the most stringent laws re: car emmissions, I've personnally spent thousands of dollars on catalytic converters and such... and we're lucky we do because the populations growing so fast that you still cannot see the highway exit sign for Pomona until you are under it due to the smog... and where I live... way up north... the haze has grown slowly, but steadily, since I was a teenager, when the sky was blue....

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-30, 01:34 AM
eggplant, that's quite disturbing about CA...

...re the dinosaurs... isn't there a fair amount of dispute as to whether an asteroid was actually responsible? I thought there was some evidence to suggest some major volcanic activity chucking a lot of dust up into the air...

eggplant
2003-Nov-30, 05:57 AM
Ok some days it's mostly blue, and it just happened that the last time I drove through Pomona it was like that... 10 or 12 years ago... If it was always like that there would have been more signs... :p

Dino fires? Can't say I'm an authority on the subject, but leave it to a reasonably sized asteroid strike to fire off a bunch of volcanic activity and seismic responses... Could've been both...? ;)

DippyHippy
2003-Nov-30, 10:16 PM
Yes, that's true... science has a habit of coming up with theories and yet they all seem to be mutually exclusive. Presumably an asteroid strike *would* trigger volcanic and seismic activity - does anyone else have a view on this?

Planetwatcher
2003-Dec-01, 01:04 AM
I feel there's some confusion about what an Ice age might look like... The areas of North America where the Glaciers lived.. are covered in 10 feet of snow every winter...
That sounds like a typical winter in the northern United States, and most of Canada. Like I said before, we have an ice age from late October to mid May every year. ;)

abyssalroamer
2003-Dec-02, 07:01 PM
One of the best supports for the asteroid wreaking havoc on the North American land mass of the time is a geologic formation just mapped in the Dakotas. It is a fairly thin unit of sediments ripped by by something like a tsunami or tidal bore right at the K-T boundary. When paleo-reconstructed, it shows the bore came from the south. Alot of major geologic activity was in progress at the time of the impact and perhaps the impact was one event too many for the earth system to accomodate. We are really just beginning to piece together the pieces. I think we are barely a couple years into another revolution in thinking in the earth sciences that ties disparate and unrelated events into a big system of cycles by linking their effects. I don't know of any area of earth and planetary science that is not being re-evaluted within this nonlinear system.

eggplant
2003-Dec-04, 04:39 AM
The was also evidence published a few days ago regarding the +/-160 million year ago mass extinction from a team working in antarctica. There is a layer of twisted quartz or something along those lines...

Planetwatcher... You're saying exactly what I'm refering to... just imagine the snow doesnt melt for a few hundred years... Boom Glaciation ;)

Matthew
2003-Dec-04, 06:09 AM
But do we have any reason for there being an ice age? Besides a massive asteroid hitting Earth.

eggplant
2003-Dec-04, 10:43 PM
I don't think anybody said that an asteroid strike caused all the Ice ages, I suppose it might trigger one with all the sun blockage from the smoke... As far as I know (which isn't that much) the ice ages were part of a balance cycle the planet goes through on a regular basis. (in geologic time) :blink:

Matthew
2003-Dec-06, 06:56 AM
But what causes an ice age? Even if it is a cycle something must set it off.

major_eh
2003-Dec-06, 11:16 AM
Humans have survived an ice age before, why wouldn't they survive another? A heck of a lot more people to feed mind you but as has been said, all of humanity wouldn't be lost. That would take something really big like an asteroid strike or something we'll manage to do to ourselves.

GOURDHEAD
2003-Dec-06, 03:35 PM
The cause(s) of ice ages

So far as I know there is no consensus among those who study the problem as to what causes ice ages. Some ideas I've run across include:
1. Changes in the Atlantic Ocean curents initiating a "freezing" of Europe and
possibly northern Asia which initiates a feedback loop that freezes North
America. Uneven heating of the ocean basin from geothermics could be a
cause for changing the Atlantic currents along with the precession of the
earth's axis of rotation and/or 2.

2. Several huge late huricanes could plow into Asia or North America or both
and meet an unusual cold front of sufficient mass and low temperature to
produce a snow/ice cover several feet thick over millions of square miles.
This in turn could rapidly lower the earth's average temperature by the
earth's reflecting much of the energy it recieved from the sun back into
space setting in motion a feedback loop initiating and maintaining an ice
age.

3. Variation in the heat output from the sun.

4. The sun's path through the galaxy could cause it to cycle through the
galactic disk thereby encountering varying levels of dust that attenuate
the sun's energy received at the earth.

5. The feedback loop initiated by global warming could be driven in a
counterposing direction via dense cloud cover and temperature distributions
allowing rapid growth of ice sheets at each pole.

6. Various combinations of any or all of the above. The complexity of such a
non-linear system almost guarantees excursions into that level of chaos
that produces extreme conditions.

7. Something no one has thought of yet....unknown unknowns.

DippyHippy
2003-Dec-06, 11:57 PM
Perhaps we should ask Donald Rumsfeld about No.7?

Matthew
2003-Dec-07, 01:33 AM
One that you could have is a string of La Nina's, they would decrease the worlds average temperature. Though we've had many more El Nino's (which increase the worlds temperature).

Chook
2003-Dec-13, 08:22 PM
Gourdhead:
I've always believed (was probably taught it at school) that the Ice Ages were caused by changes in the tilt of the earth's axis. Is that theory reasonable?

There have been some references to Atlantis. I saw a TV documentary recently where "Atlantis had been found several miles inland ..." proven by digs over several years. (I forget which country - sorry.)

Naughty DippyHippy - peeping at the Forum at work! That's where you got the inspiration for the dinosaur CFC deodorant theory? ( :D )

GOURDHEAD
2003-Dec-14, 07:06 PM
Chook:
Yes, the precession of earth's axis which changes the orientation of the tilt as seen from the direction of the sun could well be a major contributor which I sorta buried in item 1. Currently winter in the northern hemisphere, where most of the exposed land surface lies, occurs when the earth is near perihelion. Under a diffrent orientation of the tilt, winter in the northern hemisphere would occur at the earth's aphelion and this would aggravate any of the other conditions and tend to promote an iceage.

damienpaul
2003-Dec-16, 04:03 AM
I have read a book by Graham Hancock called 'Underworld', that proposes that many of the ancient civilisations were flooded at the end of the last ice age cause they were on the present day continental shelf....interesting thought that civilisations may have flourished through the last ice ages...

Damo

Matthew
2003-Dec-16, 05:03 AM
The last ice age was 10 thousand years ago. At that time agriculture hadn't developed yet. So what were these 'great' civilisations?

damienpaul
2003-Dec-16, 05:07 AM
I am not sure, his work is a little cryptic, but he subscribes to the theory that human civilisation suffered a major collapse and had to start again

GOURDHEAD
2004-Jun-15, 03:24 PM
Some references to global cooling here (http://english.pravda.ru/printed.html?news_id=12235) and here (http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2004/06/11/54373.html)

Joe87
2004-Jun-16, 04:54 PM
The reason we have ice ages now, as compared to previous epochs, may be due to Antarctica being squarely over the south pole, which allows a huge ice cap to remain in place winter and summer. Before about 30 million years ago, there was no major continent at either pole, and hence massive ice caps could not form and the global temperature was therefore much warmer than today.

The recently recurring, 100,000 year cycles of glacial and interglacial temperatures may be due to the Milankovitch orbital cycles influencing local temperatures.

There is a good record (http://jaxmtn.mystarband.net/vostok_paleotemperature.jpg) from the Vostok ice cores of Antarctic (and presumably global) relative temperatures back to 420,000 years ago. The Vostok data going back 420,000 years shows that the past 3 warm phases of the cycle (the interglacial) have each lasted around 10,000 years. We are currently in such an interglacial and have been for 12,000 years, which appears to make us due for a new glaciation soon. The Vostok data does not give much detail on the interglacial that occurred 430,000 years ago, but that warm period appears to have lasted longer than the more recent ones.

Recently, a new Antarctic ice core (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20040607/iceage.html) is being processed which should give data back to 740,000 years ago. It is reported that the new, 740,000 year core record indicates that some interglacials, like the one that occurred around 430,000 years ago, last more like 28,000 years. Hopefully, the current interclacial will last that long also. It is reported that the Milankovitch cycle data indicates that the current interglacial should be similar to the one 430,000 years ago. It will be interesting to look at the new data when it becomes available and draw our own conclusions.

StarLab
2004-Jun-16, 05:39 PM
the only conclusion I'm drawing is that if we could survive the last one, we could survive this one. ;)
By the way, welcome to the UT Forums, Joe87!

quicker
2005-Nov-27, 02:52 AM
From what I have learned during my basic education in Canada B.C. and my 38 years of life experiences leading me to Fresno California we could survive even a quick freeze; but it would definitely make a huge dent in our population erasing our current priority list. The basic education I was provided has me believing the ice age survivors moved to the warmer or warmest area as quick as they could and continued following the warmth. The current number of people on the planet (growing all the time with a possible mini boom coming) cannot be supported by the small areas left by a serious freeze. Even if we all fly somewhere warmer it would be an ugly mess to say the least.

For now I will focus on my swim through the California smog. I could go on about smog but that is for another forum.

Try this link for your Cold weather solutions just incase.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1981_January_February/A_Portable_Environment__or___How_To_Survive_The_Ic e_Age__In_Comfort_

aurora
2005-Nov-27, 04:01 AM
I feel there's some confusion about what an Ice age might look like... The areas of North America where the Glaciers lived.. are covered in 10 feet of snow every winter... The sheets do not necessarily "push" down from the north, but grow in sitiue, that is the snow doesn't melt... Granted, the farther north you move the faster the snow will be compacted into glacial ice and there's plenty of evidence that the glaciers do eventually, slide down the globe, but I think that probably has more to do with the altidude of the thicker northern sections building faster than the southern sections of what would become a contigious section of ice nearer the poles...

The continental glaciers did in fact move, they were not just stationary ice fields.

This can be seen by the evidence they left behind -- Individual rocks from Canada that are now scattered across the northern US, for example. And moraines and other glacial landforms. And fiords along the west coast.

LurchGS
2005-Nov-27, 04:24 AM
The continental glaciers did in fact move, they were not just stationary ice fields.

This can be seen by the evidence they left behind -- Individual rocks from Canada that are now scattered across the northern US, for example. And moraines and other glacial landforms. And fiords along the west coast.

and you don;t even have to look to those - just look at current glaciers. many are receding, but there are still plenty advancing.

A new ice age would definately kill off a bunch of humans, but also not even come close to wiping us out.

On the other side of that coin, an upcoming ice age flies completely in the face of the worldwide media panic about global warming (I had to say that)

Let's see - what else was there.. oh, pre-ice-age civilization. Nope. there is zero evidence to support such a claim. Tools predating the most recent ice age have been found - clever and keen as they are, they are NOT the work of civilized humans.

And I love it when people say 'we couldn't build the pyramids today...' yadda yadda yadda. Hooie. Those who say that, leave out a very critical word: "Economically" We certainly DO have the technology to build any pyramid - we just don't want to afford it.
Building the Great Pyramid (let's pass on the many smaller variants for now) took something like 75% of the GNP of the entire empire. I may be off on that number, it's been a while since I read that. In this era, something like 25% of GNP spent on the military helped burry the Soviet Union. 75% is flatly not supportable.

Several sets of engineers have demonstrated methods by which the egyptians might have built the pyramids, as well.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-27, 07:45 AM
Another hypothesis I heard regarding the start of the most recent ice age was the formation of the Himalayas. The idea is that the Himalayas exposed rock that chemically reacted with the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, sequestering the carbon dioxide and reducing the greenhouse effect. This led to a rapid cooling. I do not know if this is reasonable.

One idea I heard about pre ice-age civilization was regarding the Indus valley civilization, which appears to have developed into the modern-day Indian society. Last I heard we are currently unaware exactly when Indian civilization, and their religion, first developed. One hypothesis is that it developed during or even prior to the last ice age. The cities were built on or near the coast and were flooded during the end of the ice age. The people simply migrated higher and higher as the waters rose, leaving their cities behind and re-building in the ruins we have now. They were no super-advanced society, just the first of the standard early river-dependent societies like the Mesopotamians and Egyptians.

One of the odder of the at least half-way plausible (albiet still very unlikley) ideas about Atlantis was that it was a city built on an island in lake Titicaca in what is now the border between Peru and Bolivia. It was wiped out by tectonic activity, but was no where near a complete continent. Tales of the city arrived from traders to Egypt from South or Central America. Apparently some people think they found cocoa and nicotene traces in Egyptian mummies (although I heard later that these results were of questionable veracity). This is at least concievable, not as likely as tales of Minoan island that we know really did explode but more likely than a super-advanced society with space-ships and magic crystals.

One thing about a tilt in Earth's axis causing the ice age. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression such an event would leave identifiable traces in things like coral, ice cores, sediment layers, and such. It would have an impact on the seasonal changes in the day/night cycle worldwide, not to mention changes in temperature shifts during the year. I would think such a thing would leave detectable traces, although I could be wrong about that.

Tunga
2005-Nov-28, 08:26 PM
Today most individuals live near the coast and that is where many of the great cities are located. One might expect the same to be true prior to the end of the last ice age. Sea levels rose 400 feet since the end of the last ice age. The melting ice from the glaciers caused the rise in sea level. In general, if great civilizations existed prior to the last ice age, they might be invisible because the evidence could be buried under 400 feet of water, at the edge of the continental shelf.

Although several theories were mentioned about the cause of great Ice Ages, one was missed. Global cooling events that produce glacial periods could be caused by supernovas. Very high energy particles (GCRs) from a supernova can reach down to the lower atmosphere and spawn greater cloud formation. These periods can last several hundred years. The clouds reflect much of the sunlight back out to space and the Earth cools.

trinitree88
2005-Nov-28, 09:45 PM
The key element in heat transport, as Kashi, And Dippy Happy point out is the North Atlantic conveyor. Moving at approximately walking speed, water wells up in the South Pacific, travels around Africa, through the Caribbean, and as the Gulf Stream deposits heat at Northern Latitudes giving southwestern Ireland and Iceland unduly warm weather.Then it sinks, travels south through the Atlantic basin, around Cape Horn, and Antarctica, and back to the Pacific upwelling spot. When the conveyor shuts down, and foraminifera records in the mud indicate that it has, an ice age can ensue in short order...within your lifetime ~20 years. So, global melting and decreased salinity of the Gulf Stream bears close watching. The other contributing factor that can runaway is that sealevel increases enable Antarctic glaciers to slide more rapidly to sea, both floating them, and lubricating the bottom contact area. Remember the Siberian Mastodons that froze to death with fresh blueberries still in their mouths 10,000 years later. That required a temperature drop in excess of 100 F in an hour, for them to be preserved as such. Blueberries usually flower in May, fruit in mid-June, or later. When was
the last time you saw it go from 70 to -30 ( or 105 to 5 F )in an hour in the summertime?:think: Ciao. Pete.

genebujold
2005-Nov-28, 09:48 PM
You must also wonder how the Pyrimids of Eygpt could have been constructed without technology? The architecture is highly advanced....every block fits together perfectly, even with complex networks of tunnels.

No wonder at all. What little I know of stone-cutting and basic physics (rollers, inclines, etc.) even I could build the pyramids, given the tens of thousands of workers and thirty years!

genebujold
2005-Nov-28, 09:51 PM
Sea levels rose 400 feet since the end of the last ice age. The melting ice from the glaciers caused the rise in sea level. In general, if great civilizations existed prior to the last ice age, they might be invisible because the evidence could be buried under 400 feet of water, at the edge of the continental shelf.

Evidence of several such civilizations has been found, and well documented. However, as the waters rose, the civilizations moved inland, just as we would.