PDA

View Full Version : Hyperspace and the other dimensions



Josh
2003-Nov-25, 09:39 AM
I was debating whether or not to pose this question. I've run it passed some of the moderators and they agree it could go either way depending on how people choose to answer. So, before you read ahead realise that this topic and the questions in it aren't meant to be answered with any sort of god/guru/astroplaning/spirituality in mind!!! This is a scientific question looking for scientific and philosophical answers to the parts of the universe we don't understand. We'll be moderating and looking at the replies carefully so please post intelligently.

Anyway.

I have been thinking about the other dimensions that Einstein discusses and feature heavily in hyperspace theory. In relation to this, I thought about the three spatial dimensions we can perceive and the one temporal one. Two people cannot physically inhabit the exact same "space" in the 3 spatial dimensions but can inhabit the same "space" in the temporal dimension. In fact, we all inhabit the same "space" in the temporal dimension. Perhaps that is why we can all interact and why (if there are time travellers) we can't interact or see time travellers. So, I then questioned what would the ramifications be of inhabiting the same "space" in one of the other dimensions (if you think about them all as physical dimensions)?? Does this make sense? Lots of people claim to have seen ghosts, or have premonitions, or other ethereal stuff. I'm wondering if these occurences can be explained by these other dimensions. I'm certain there is more likely to be a scientific explaination to these things than ghosts and ghouls. If the possibility of two people inhabiting the same "space" in one of the other dimensions somehow links them or affects them some way, what would that way be? Further, has anyone read anything that explains what these other dimensions are and where they act? Can they be likened to the other four dimensions in the first place? I'm sure our incapabilty to fathom these other dimensions doesn't preclude the notion that we exist in them without any knowledge of the goings on in them.

So? thoughts? comments? I'd like to hear what everyone thinks.

Dave Mitsky
2003-Nov-25, 01:47 PM
IMO, a far likely explanation of ghosts and the like is the human prediliction to be delusional, to create a hoax, or to lie for attention or profit. The same goes for Nessie, Big Foot, UFOs, psychic powers, and the rest of the supernatural and paranormal.

Dave Mitsky

Edwin
2003-Nov-25, 06:00 PM
The common denomenator of of our dimension/universe must be 'our' timeline.
If you change that then you cannot be in the same dimension. If you were to partially shift an object in the timeline out of phase with ours then surely it would become invisible and therefore not in the same dimension

Planetwatcher
2003-Nov-25, 08:17 PM
Heavy subject indeed.
I just happen to be reading Steven Hawkings Universe, and he makes many references to Einstien and his work.
I just finished reading about Einstien and Freedmen and others working on a unified theory concluding that the big bang was also the beginning of all time space, which would seem to me to imply that actual time travel is not possible, because otherwise we could go back to the big bang, which I wouldn't want to any way. I'd think it would be quite dangerous to emerge from time travel admist the explosion which started the universe. That would make a hypernova look like a lit match.

Josh
2003-Nov-25, 11:15 PM
So are the other dimensions physical ones? are they infinitely big as the 4 we know are or are they infinitely small due to a shearing of the dimensions at the big bang? Beyond ghosts and sightings etc, I want to know what people think the ramifications would be of inhabiting the same place in another dimension or if it's possible at all.

VanderL
2003-Nov-26, 03:07 PM
Without evidence and hard data every discussion becomes either philosophical or fantasy, so this will be a thread I want to avoid. Anyway, have fun with the discussions,
Cheers.

Josh
2003-Nov-27, 12:08 AM
Thanks for that rivetting input there VanderL...

The only way to come to any sort of logical conclusions or positions is to talk about the facts. Philosophy and science working together to gain a better understanding of our surroundings. Or, you can just push it aside and ignore it completely. Don't question, don't find out the truth. I prefer to ask why ... frequently.

VanderL
2003-Nov-27, 10:59 AM
Well Josh,

Don't misunderstand me, I'm sorry if I was blunt, always question and discuss possibilities, but the idea of this thread was to have some scientific discussion abour hyperspace and other dimensions. I don't think those two are really possible without the hard data. I adhere to the experimental side of science, the theoretical and philosophical part of science are necessary to gain better understanding, but the main and foremost task of science is to try and understand the Universe and test the theories and hypotheses. I agree with your suggestion that ghosts and other phenomena will have a more scientific explanation, and we need to find these things out, but I can't see that hyperspace will help this. Hyperspace is in my opinion "unprovable", akin to the discussion you wanted to avoid on religion. And please tell me I'm wrong, it could make the Universe a lot more interesting, although I find it interesting enough as it is,
Cheers.

Graceless
2003-Nov-27, 11:17 PM
I believe that is why it's called a "theory", and not "scientific fact".

And the whole point of a forum, non?

Josh
2003-Nov-28, 12:08 AM
Well according to the current accepted theories (so far as I know) the universe can't exist without the existence of these other dimensions. The detection of gravity waves (which still elludes us) necessarily relies on the waves travelling in another dimension. Postulation is the basis of science.

lazserus
2004-Jan-01, 04:17 AM
Are you referring to the extra 7 dimensions mentioned in M-theory? Classical physics tells us that there are 4 dimensions - 3 spatial dimensions and 1 dimension of time. You mention a possibility of dimensional collisions to explain paranormal sightings, so I'm curious of what dimensions you're referring to.

If you follow the theory that we live in a universe within a multiverse then there is definitely a theory that correlates to your line of reasoning. If you imagine a room filled with soap bubbles, a single universe would represent a soap bubble and the room would represent the multiverse. The bubbles act independently (for the sake of argument let's just say there's no gravitational influences or electro-magnetic influences in the space between the universes). Every once in a while two bubbles will collide, creating a pathway between the two. Sometimes smaller bubbles form between the colliding bubbles. This could account for sightings of apparitions - an interdimension bleeding effect, if you will.

apocalypse
2004-Jan-01, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by Planetwatcher@Nov 25 2003, 08:17 PM
Heavy subject indeed.
I just happen to be reading Steven Hawkings Universe, and he makes many references to Einstien and his work.
I just finished reading about Einstien and Freedmen and others working on a unified theory concluding that the big bang was also the beginning of all time space, which would seem to me to imply that actual time travel is not possible, because otherwise we could go back to the big bang, which I wouldn't want to any way. I'd think it would be quite dangerous to emerge from time travel admist the explosion which started the universe. That would make a hypernova look like a lit match.
Yeah,on the other hand maybe it was sending a time machine back to the big bang that caused the big bang in the first place.
I mean anyone who wants to know what was going on at the first split nanosecond might be inclined to send a probe of some sort,what happens when you send something of dimensional existent arrangment back in time to the very first billionths of a second of existence?
LOL

who knows
i think even the copenhagen interpretation of QM suggested at some point that the universe exists cos of conscious observers or some such hearing the big bang so the fact we got signals back makes it exist cos its then observed???!,suffice to say the very idea of time machines creating the universe is no worse than some of the stuff CIQM has come out with.

Josh
2004-Jan-01, 06:27 AM
lazerus, welcome to the forums and all that and a happy new year. What you described is exactly what I'm talking about. It sounds like you're asking if i'm a crackpot who believes in other dimensions in the vein of astroplaning and the like. the answer to that is NO. I'm talking about the other dimensions as theorised by Einstein as a necessary conclusion of his work. Those that lead to the thinking that light is actually a vibration in the fifth dimension. The dimensions that the physicist Michio Kaku (http://www.mkaku.org/) talks about in a lot of his research and books.

Tweek
2004-Jan-01, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Josh@Jan 1 2004, 06:27 AM
lazerus, welcome to the forums and all that and a happy new year. What you described is exactly what I'm talking about. It sounds like you're asking if i'm a crackpot who believes in other dimensions in the vein of astroplaning and the like. the answer to that is NO. I'm talking about the other dimensions as theorised by Einstein as a necessary conclusion of his work. Those that lead to the thinking that light is actually a vibration in the fifth dimension. The dimensions that the physicist Michio Kaku (http://www.mkaku.org/) talks about in a lot of his research and books.
Haha do you post at Mkaku.org forums Josh? I love that place. It's funny that you brought that up because I'm posting there right now :D

Josh
2004-Jan-01, 07:10 AM
Heh... nah I didn't know there were forums there. I just read his stuff - online and off. He's a pretty switched on guy!!

GOURDHEAD
2004-Jan-01, 02:49 PM
An item must be of non-zero size (however small) in each of the 4 spacetime dimensions in order to have a meaningful existence. Items that meet this requirement are observable and to some extent measurable even though we may not have the technology to achieve this presently for the extremely small. Having non-zero size in the 4 spacetime dimensions seems to be both necessary and sufficient---but it is sufficient.

Theories invoking additional dimensions beyond the 4 of spacetime, not only exceed my comprehension, but hint at epicycling, a sport that Occam advised against. I would be much more comfortable intuitively if the additional degrees of freedom apparently required by string and brane theories could invoke "independent parameters" other than spatial dimensions (e.g. posit a composite charge-like sub-quark structure of non-hyperdimensional nature).

Having accepted general relativity that equates gravity with geometry and not knowing what mass is at the electron/neutron/proton level other than resistance to motion as defined by the definition of momentum, we may have embarked on the road to defining mass and charge in terms of geometry as well. Highly localized fractal-like variations in the curvature of spacetime come to mind for mass and charge may be relatable to non-zero-energy-state space quantization compromises of some sort.

Should this wild speculation have merit, it will give a new meaning to geometors.

TheThorn
2004-Jan-01, 08:32 PM
Hi Josh.

You made a statement in your opening note that no one has challenged:

"In relation to this, I thought about the three spatial dimensions we can perceive and the one temporal one. Two people cannot physically inhabit the exact same "space" in the 3 spatial dimensions but can inhabit the same "space" in the temporal dimension."

I don't think this is true.

No two objects can occupy the same space in all 4 dimensions, but any two objects can share "space" in any one, two, or three dimensions. In this respect, time is no different than the other three dimensions.

To illustrate, let's put actual "dimensions" on our dimensions. Lets make the bottom South West corner of my bedroom the origin, and put the x axis East/West (East being positive), y axis North/South (Norht +tve), and the z axis up/down (up +tve). The time axis is a separate issue and takes care of itself. All measurements are in Meters.

Now my current location in that "space" is about (4,3,1).

My chair's current location is about (4,3,.5), so we share the exact same location in two of the three spatial dimensions, and the time dimension. In fact, every object that is due north or due south of me shares my space in the x dimension, every object due east or due west of me... Oh, you get the picture.

The point is that we all share the single time dimension, but we also share the other dimensions. Just not all 4 at the same time.

I don't know how this affects (if at all) the philosophical and almost spiritual musings going on in this thread, but it was a fundamental assumption that I felt needed to be challenged.

Take care.

Josh
2004-Jan-02, 02:52 AM
Hey TheThorn,

I think I just wasn't clear enough in my original post. What you've described is exactly what I meant. I am not saying that we can't inhabit some of the 3 dimensions, I'm saying that no two people can inhabit all three spatial dimensions at the same time. which is pretty much what you said ... I think.

Faulkner
2004-Jan-03, 09:50 PM
Extra dimensions (beyond the four we are familiar with) are hypothetical, posited by string theory & supergravity etc... They are imaginative constructs useful for describing quantum gravity, and reaching a "Grand Unified Theory" - but they are nowhere near "proven" to exist (yet?)...

Some theories posit a total of 10 dimensions, others 26...but they all have inherent problems.

However, if they WERE to exist, these extra dimensions would be curled up upon themselves, so infinitesimally that that they would not be experienced by us. In "normal" 4D spacetime geometry, each point IS just that: a dimensionless point. But if there were these extra dimensions, each "point" becomes a tiny vibrating string, or perhaps a closed loop...

Difficult to fathom without the complex mathematics I guess, but David Lindley's "The End Of Physics" does a fine job at trying to explain things, I must say.

Anyway, that's the physics approach.

If talking metaphysics, I'd be inclined to postulate an infinity of dimensions! (But that's neither here nor there...)

lazserus
2004-Jan-03, 10:06 PM
I'm glad you brought that up, Faulkner. The original string theory (bosonic) incorporated 26 dimensions, but it had major flaws. Bosonic string theory had no fermions, meaning no matter. On top of that, we were stuck with and imaginary tachyon. From there we moved on to supersymmetry, or superstring theory (10 dimensions), but had different 5 different types -- I, IIA, IIB, HO, & HE. This entails having the same amount of bosons as fermions (which observable evidence negates this). More recent work combines the two which gives us m-theory and 11 space-time dimensions.

If we believe string theory, then whether we have 6 dimensions or 26 dimensions, only 4 are observable. The remaining dimensions, like Faulkner stated, are so tightly wound up that they can not harbor any mass-carrying elements.

But, with a metaphysical outlook we just end up again in the bathroom with an infinite number of soap bubbles.

damienpaul
2004-Jan-06, 04:11 AM
can someone remind me what fermions, bosons and tachyons are again

Littlemews
2004-Jan-06, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by damienpaul@Jan 6 2004, 04:11 AM
can someone remind me what fermions, bosons and tachyons are again
If u need information check this site out :lol: My favor
http://quanten.ludibunda.ch/glossary/f_en-w-force.html

damienpaul
2004-Jan-06, 04:32 AM
ooooh that is a nice site...officially becomes a favourite!!!!

Derako Duran
2005-Dec-20, 02:52 PM
Hello, I know this thread is old, but I'd like to bring up a point (or several).
Demension is a classification of the world around us, like how we classify animals and, well, everything.

With that in mind, the 4 known demensions are how we can comprehend something, they are not however tangible as we come to think of them. They are how we describe position. So if we can find another position to be in, than we can name it and give it a number.

All of the known demensions are collided within each other, width slices through hight and length, and also slices through time, and so on for the others. So my point is that if there are other demensions, than they must slice through the other 4, or by our classification it would not be another dimension.

If ghosts are real, than they would inhabit another dimension, but in that, they could not pass through each other, and in order to see them they would half to shed light that slips into our dimension (Which would be kind of ridiculous to conclude) or we see them on onother level.

Let me go back for a second, we concluded that anything can exist in three of the four demensions at the same time with anything else, it would be better for this discossion to istead say that anything can exist in all but one of the dimensions at the same time with anything else. So if there is another dimension, than it cant be physical or temperal. That would say that there is no bathtub of bubbles, because every bubble has it's own physical relm though for some reason we leave the temperal realm linked to all those bubbles. We already classified the physical realm with highth, width, and length, there are diferent places for those to be in with time, and so what would another position be?

Like I was saying about the ghosts, ghosts can not be talked about without talking about a spirit. A spirit would exist in the fifth dimension, a spiritual demension if you will. Since everything exists in 3D space and in time, from my earlier conclusion of every demension slices through every other dimension, than everything is linked to this spiritual dimension like how everything is linked to the other dimensions. Without time we could not move, and with out any one of the other dimensions we could not move, because in multiplication, if any of these equal zero, than the whole object could not exist, this was also a point earlier made. This concludes that a ghost, or the spirit could not move in the other four dimensions without its link to the other four dimensions. Basically, by admitting you have seen or believe ghosts or anything similar can oporate with out its physical body means you admit you believe in a force that can defy laws that our world lives in. Because a ghost oporating without its body in the other four dimensions is like saying that you can be in two locations at the same exact time. Though you can copy yourself (In the futurer at least) your copy is not really the same nutrons, protons, and electrons.

This also brings us to time travel. Since we live in the progresion of time, we could not travel back, because in doing so, we would not notice a thing. If god exists, than going back in time would be like him pressing rewind on his VCR. (Yes, god has not yet gotten himself a DVD Player, LOL) Since we were broght back, we only know what happend before our point in time because memory is physical. Basically if it has not happened yet, there is no evidence. That is what the law of cause and effect tell us. The only ones that could know time was ever messed with would be those that exist outside of time, which could only be someone like god.

In my opinion, there could only be one other dimension, and I believe it is the spiritual one. This would explain why I can feel others in more ways than the five senses would allow. It is more than just interpretation of looks or any thing like that. But back to my scientifice view, we may not be able to test it be cause it coinsides with everything in such a way that we couldn't notice. Even if scientific views asumed there is that fifth demension, they could never believe anyone has actually seen ghosts, cause the fifth dimension would be like hiegth or width or length, it's just another dimension.

Argos
2005-Dec-20, 05:30 PM
As I see it, each one can be said to be living in a 'frame of reference'. Everyone is imprisoned in their own frame. We cannot even say we 'inhabit' the same 'space' in time, because there is not a viable definition of simultaneity. So, I think neuro science and psychology explain phantoms better.

mantiss
2005-Dec-20, 05:48 PM
Yes, other "Paranormal" activities are best explained by phenomenons which don't really require re-writing the books on the Standard Model and Relativity. Besides I would expect that dimension clashes would not only bring out ghosts from the past (as seems to be the most common reports) with future ones (unless we're doomed in the near future ;) ). I really don't see a strong case for it.

However it hinted at a point which I found interesting in that Spacetime is usually considered a flowing, non-granular entity. However once we go to smaller distance than the planck length, I guess everything can happen there and it could be that spacetime itself is granular, quantized, or am I just pushing it? If such is possible, is it not also possible that spontaneous relativity violations (or even CPT symmetry violations) discovered on such minute scales might bring up the "ghost" or "holographic" perception of interacting multiverses with our own?

Just letting the leash loose on ideas here, this might have been discussed elsewhere.

Derako Duran
2005-Dec-20, 06:05 PM
I believe that demensions don't clash, it would be like thinking highth could sudenly merge with length and or width. I wonder what everyone thinks about my earlier message. I have not been in a discusion on the web before. Do you agree with me? Just parts? Or not at all?