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TiMiX
2003-Dec-07, 12:24 AM
Was talking to my dad the other day and we got on the subject of time, he thinks it does excist and i don't. Your thinking..... how can i think time doesn't excist? :rolleyes: Its tricky to explane, but i'll give it ago :D

Thinking in a universal sence, with atons and electrons and all the things that go into building you and the chair your sitting on. All these things don't remember anything, thay have no awearness they just flot about and don't know what they just did anymore than thay know what there about to do.

We as humans have the abillity to remember, so to understand and explane to our selfs the diffrence from what we remember, to whats happening now we invented time, so we can measure and keep track of this. If we couldn't remember, there would be no time.

But we can remember, so time does exist... right?

Yes and no. In our consciouse world yes it does, but in the real world of atons and electons, the very things are consciousness are made of, no it doesn't.

Hope that made some sence :D I say some of the strange things a normal conversation with ya dad can turn in too :lol: :D

Matthew
2003-Dec-07, 01:53 AM
Well it does exsist in a sense. Causality (the statement that cause preceds effect), basically states that it does exist. But because time can be manipulated it can exist, its not like its some static thing. Space itself changes time, affects it. So if it can be manipulated then it must exist.

Littlemews
2003-Dec-07, 03:11 AM
Yea time does exist....
For example, when u move, the time move, but we u stop move(Dead), then time stop..same as the universe, if the planet rotating that mean there is time exist, but when the planet stop rotating(Black Hole), that mean the time stop...(because motion is no longer exist) I wonder why time stop when close to a Black Hole????? ><><

Menikmati
2003-Dec-09, 03:08 AM
without time everything would be static. Nothing in this world would change, no decay, no birth, nothing =&#092;.

TiMiX
2003-Dec-09, 10:56 PM
Well it would, but you wouldn&#39;t know it. For instance... people say its the "TIME" taken for something to travel from point A to B. If we didn&#39;t have a conscious memory to remember point A, and we are only seeing point B no time would have pasted because we never awear of it. So its only our abillity to remember things that time exicts, take that away and the time scale goes with it.

Another way of thinking about it is when you are asleep. When your sleeping you have no sence of time do you? Because you not conscious of it, or not remembering it. People that have been in a comma for 19 years wake up thinking its been only afew hours. Things still move and your only awear of it when you become conscious again, when waking up.

Tricky isn&#39;t it (o:

Chook
2003-Dec-14, 07:28 PM
I totally agree with Menikmati.

Time = Rate of change (artificially concocted from the movements of the earth).

Even thinking takes "time". As Menikmati stated - no time = no movements, no thinking, everything static and solid. Which, of course, is unrealistic.

Therefore TIME has no character in itself - it has to be associated with change in other entities.

Mef
2003-Dec-15, 08:54 PM
TiMix, what you are talking about is the senerio of "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Just because certain things and beings are either aware of it or not, does not mean that time does not exist. You are going for the very simple explination, when a much more complicated one is called for. How do you explain Einstein&#39;s theory of relativity? Part of it states that time is effected by gravity.

To test the theory, NASA used the Paradox of the Twins with hydrogen maser clocks that lose no more than 1 second every 3 billion years.

One clock stayed on the ground, while the second was rocketed to 10,000 km (6,200 miles) where Earth&#39;s gravity has less than half the strength it has at sea level. As the probe slowed, stopped briefly at the apex, and started falling back, scientists could measure slight differences between the flight clock and the ground clock.

To a precision of 70 parts per million, Einstein was proven right, again.

http://www.southpole.com/headlines/y2000/a...may_1m.htm?list (http://www.southpole.com/headlines/y2000/ast24may_1m.htm?list)

If time does not exist and it is all just a perception by us thinking beings, then how do you explain this experiment?

Matthew
2003-Dec-16, 04:35 AM
Time can be effected by gravity and acceleration, if something can be effected, wouldn&#39;t it be safe to assume it exists?

rahuldandekar
2003-Dec-18, 09:00 AM
THe real question is whether time is just phsychological or real.

TiMiX
2003-Dec-22, 01:10 AM
I have heard of the tree in the forest senerio, its not realy what i&#39;m getting at. :)

Ok... last try to explain whats in my head :D quite tricky isn&#39;t it.

Ok... time has no matter.... right. You can&#39;t see it you can&#39;t smell it, you can&#39;t touch it, it has no force or power.

Time dosn&#39;t power anything because it has no power its self, so why would things freeze with out it?

Do you think the atoms that build for instance, you and your pc screen have any awearness of any time?... i think no. :blink:

Einstein&#39;s General Theory of Relativity has been proven right. That time can traval faster or slower under certain situations. So lets say you take 2 clocks and apply the Theory which makes one loose "time", whats happening in an atom point of view?? the atoms moving slower in one clock making it loose "time" on its face... right? Why? because of time? how come if time has no force or power to effect it.
How can somthing with no mass (time), effect something with mass (atom) shorly theres something i&#39;m missing here, because that makes no sence at all to me at all :blink:
There must be a real force at work, You ever heard of a time powerd clock?.... no :D :)

Take time travel, how can you make every atom jump back to where it was say 500 years ago&#33; you can&#39;t.

You nor an atam has the faintest idea where it used to be 500 years ago, or where it was just 2 seconds ago, because the universe isn&#39;t recording any of this, theres no time scale out there.

Anyway :D i&#39;m not saying that i think i&#39;m right, i&#39;v just come across something that dosn&#39;t make sence in my eyes and just giving my thorghts :blink: :)

Matthew
2003-Dec-23, 01:54 AM
Take time travel, how can you make every atom jump back to where it was say 500 years ago&#33; you can&#39;t.

Thats an assumption.

TiMiX
2003-Dec-29, 12:48 AM
what isn&#39;t?

exAstro
2003-Dec-29, 09:02 PM
I&#39;ve read Julian Barbour&#39;s "The End of Time" three times (;-)) and still have not appreciated his point(s). In a non-scientific vein, I believe that time is certainly a subjective "quantity" and not an absolute. But ... we&#39;ll have to wait and see, won&#39;t we.

Happy new year- and may dark skys bless you.

TheThorn
2003-Dec-30, 02:26 AM
According to John Archibald Wheeler,

If time didn&#39;t exist, then everything would happen at once.

Just a sec... on second thought, you may have a point there.... ;)

Take care.

exAstro
2004-Jan-01, 11:55 PM
Mr Thorn, et al.-

Wheeler&#39;s autobio.- "Geons.... " is a classic already. And- he still lives&#33; How appropriate. I only wish that I could have seen him at work.

Happy new year&#33;

rahuldandekar
2004-Jan-02, 01:24 PM
Time isn&#39;t a quantity independent of Space. When the Space-time block is cut into different slices, A property of each slide can Identify the time of it. (see &#39;space-time for this subject).

So, spce and time don&#39;t exist independently.

Rene
2004-Jan-02, 08:17 PM
I also believe time does not exist. Imagine a spreadsheet or database that could store the 4 cooridnates of every particle or object in the universe. x,y, z and the fourth time T. The database would be called U. This is how most people perceive the universe. looking at the values of x,y,z and t for each object, the values would be constantly changing.

Most people have confused the universe with time. There is no time passing, just existance. The universe exists and things move within it. There is not time passing, just the measurement of objects moving with vibrations of a quartz crystal or a clock hand moving to measure them. One object measuring another&#39;s movement with the movement of itself.

So, lets redefine Time as actually Existance. So, move the t in the database to the U as the actual database which is static and everything else in the database still changes due to its constantly changing physical positions within U or T.

Guest_Adrian
2004-Jan-03, 12:45 AM
Time, ummm. Possibly the easiest way to define time is to consider the passage of light across the universe. Even our own sun, being 93 million miles away, takes approximately 8.3 minutes to reach us, and in the most distant reaches of the cosmos it is possible to see the universe as it was almost 12 billion years ago.
Our lives are too short to fully appreciate the vast age of our universe, but light, if its source is powerful enough is able to exploit the properties of time to the limits of infinitude.
The Universe itself is expanding, and if it were possible to measure this expansion at all points, it would probably be near light speed.
Donít measure time by how we perceive, but by how the universe itself exploits it.
All life in the universe exists on the edge of time; what we call the present, and the present is like the crest of a wave moving ever onward into the future.
Like the massive flow of photons forever criss-crossing the universe, we are inescapable caught in the flow of linier time.

TiMiX
2004-Jan-07, 12:09 AM
There is no time passing, just existance. The universe exists and things move within it. There is not time passing, just the measurement of objects moving with vibrations of a quartz crystal or a clock hand moving to measure them.

Spot on, makes alot more sence than mine :D


Our lives are too short to fully appreciate the vast age of our universe

How i see it is the universe isn&#39;t any older then it was when it was first created, its

just changed.

I feel once peaple start to look past the illusion of time, and start asking them

selfs, whats actuly effecting things then if it isn&#39;t time. We will be a big step closer

to understanding and solving things that we now think are impossible. :rolleyes:

damienpaul
2004-Jan-07, 12:26 AM
thats an interesting way of putting it

Kevin
2004-Jan-07, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Rene@Jan 2 2004, 08:17 PM
I also believe time does not exist. Imagine a spreadsheet or database that could store the 4 cooridnates of every particle or object in the universe. x,y, z and the fourth time T. The database would be called U. This is how most people perceive the universe. looking at the values of x,y,z and t for each object, the values would be constantly changing.

Most people have confused the universe with time. There is no time passing, just existance. The universe exists and things move within it. There is not time passing, just the measurement of objects moving with vibrations of a quartz crystal or a clock hand moving to measure them. One object measuring another&#39;s movement with the movement of itself.

So, lets redefine Time as actually Existance. So, move the t in the database to the U as the actual database which is static and everything else in the database still changes due to its constantly changing physical positions within U or T.
What most of you fail to understand is the meaning of &#39;dimensions&#39;.

A &#39;dimension&#39; is not a THING, it is not a box or some other type of place. A dimension is a factor of measuring. If I can &#39;measure&#39; a certain aspect of something, then it is a &#39;dimension&#39; of that thing.

There are four &#39;basic&#39; dimensions (the lowest distilled aspects which we can measure) - Height, Width, Length (otherwise known as space) and the rate of change (time). Put them both together and you get &#39;space-time&#39;. These four dimensions are inherient to ALL things, everything that is contained within our universe must have a minimum of these four dimensions.

One of the previous posts was correct, in that if there was no time, then there would be no change. Meaning, electrons wouldn&#39;t spin around an atom, atom&#39;s wouldn&#39;t move, there would be no electromagnetic energy, etc. There would be no radiation, no light, nothing. The entire universe would be static. And as such, there would be no life, no memory, no thought, etc. It would all be black, even to an outside observer, since there would be no means of light or other type of detectable radiation of energy to validate the existence of our universe.

Your metaphorical bunk on &#39;existence&#39; is just that... bunk. Existence is the ability of something to occupy space. That&#39;s it. Metaphorical awareness of your own existence means nothing. You would exist with or without your awareness. Something can exist without time, as it can still occupy space. However, it can not CHANGE without time, and as a result, it especially could not validate it&#39;s own existence because measuring something would require change to do so....ie. knowledge could not exist without time, since it would be a change in your pool of thought located in your brain.

What Einstien proved is that TIME is a measure of the RATE of change, not the measure of change itself. This means that we aren&#39;t measuring the discrete steps of the originality of change, but the differences in the changes relative to each other.

This is why the RATE of CHANGE (aka Time) can be warped, modified, stopped, restarted, etc. For instance, when I bring something down to ABSOLUTE ZERO, I stop time for that thing. Even though absolute change exists outside of it, and occurs regardless, the rate of change for that item at Absolute Zero is ZERO and thus from it&#39;s relative expression, time has stopped.

Einstien also explained why the rate of change of something is modified by speed via his famous equation E=mc^2. E=Energy, m=Mass, c=the speed of light (aka, the rate of change of something with little to no mass). So via his equation, he shows the direct relation to the rate of change, to mass, to energy. Stopping time means bringing something&#39;s total Energy to zero, Moving faster than the speed of light (relative to that thing) would require infinte Energy/mass which is impossible. This equation does NOT state that it is impossible to go FASTER than the speed of light. It is just impossible to go faster than the speed of light relative to YOURSELF, not to an outside observer. The outside observer would see time for you slow in relation to provide the equivilancy to the observed increase in Energy. Basically, you trade one for the other, and vice versa. So to them, you could possibly go faster than the speed of light that they measure, just not the speed of light you measure yourself.

This also explains why it is difficult (if not impossible) to *really* go backwards in time. This is due to the nature of the fact that the way we perceive time, is relative, since we do not have an absolute measure of time, we can not expressedly state that we are actually going back in it. Since time=change, to go backwards in time would require changing everything in reverse order until that point. However, relatively speaking, time has continued to move forward, we have just reversed the changes that occured previously, thus moving us forward in time still, but relatively backwards in change. This is kind of a difficult concept to grasp via text, and would be much easier to explain in pictures.

But here goes...

-------- Absolute Change--------------------------------------&#62;
Changes to something:

---&#62; Relative Time--&#62;
A->B->C->D->E
(reversing change)
****************-<------Relative Time<-----<----------
****************E->D->C->B->A

*Note: Ignore the stars (*), I have to put something there or else the website will remove the leading whitespace and screw up the picture.

This is where the &#39;splinter&#39; theory of time comes into play. Since time is a measure of the rate of change, and since the rate of something can never be negative (how would you slow something down less than zero?) Resolving a relative change in time would not preclude a change to absolute time. Thus, if you changed relative time, to go back and try to kill your grandfather, you would still exist, since you would be necessary to go back and change time, in addition to being required to be there to kill your grandfather. It&#39;s more of a self serving paradox.

What Guest_Adrian fails to realize is that existence and time are two different things. Time can not exist without space, but space can exist without time.

Time must exist as long as change exists, as Time is merely a relavent measure of the rate of something changing.

Hopefully this long and drawn out diatrabe will help.

damienpaul
2004-Jan-07, 12:54 AM
what a great long and drawn out diatribe&#33;&#33; awesome - it makes sense relatively speaking

Glyn
2004-Feb-04, 04:18 AM
Hi, sorry to intrude. I thought one of you may help me. My watch has stopped. Does anyone have the right time?

Sp1ke
2004-Feb-04, 09:47 AM
Maybe. Depends where you are and how fast you&#39;re moving ;)

Guest_Mike
2004-Feb-05, 07:57 PM
Time doesn&#39;t exist in the sense that it is a physical entity, but time can indeed be considered the fourth dimension. I&#39;m sure you have no trouble believing the three spatial dimensions exist, even though you can&#39;t point to the dimensions and say, "look here is a dimension of space." They simply don&#39;t exist in that sense, just like time.

By your reasoning one could also say that distance is a man-made concept and doesn&#39;t really "exist," when in fact we know it does.

All units of time we use are man-made but time itself is not, just as the meter and foot are man-made units of space, but space itself is not just something conceived in the mind.

Sp1ke
2004-Feb-06, 09:10 AM
There is a difference, though, between the spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension. We can freely move backwards and forwards in each of the spatial dimensions but time is a one-way trip. We can&#39;t even alter the speed we travel through time (except from the perspective of an external observer).

Chook
2004-Feb-06, 07:54 PM
Congratulations to Kevin - a most lucid explanation.

Chook
2004-Feb-07, 07:45 PM
Quote Kevin:
"... RATE of CHANGE (aka Time) can be warped, modified, stopped, restarted, etc. For instance, when I bring something down to ABSOLUTE ZERO, I stop time for that thing. Even though absolute change exists outside of it, and occurs regardless, the rate of change for that item at Absolute Zero is ZERO and thus from it&#39;s relative expression, time has stopped."

You have made a very interesting point, Kevin, but I&#39;m not sure, after contemplation, that I understand. So help me please ...

If I understand what you are explaining - "time" (aka RATE OF CHANGE) is different for everything relative to its "change". Eg the something with ABSOLUTE ZERO temperature has "stopped time" ... yet the environment around it continues to age.

But consider an animate object eg a SLOTH with a "low metabolic rate" compared to a "SHREW" with a high metabolic rate. Are you saying that TIME is different for them both (because of their different "rate of changes"? And a different time for their environment around them which, itself, consists of many components of varying "rates of change".

See my confusion? :blink:

Sp1ke
2004-Feb-09, 10:46 AM
I think there are two aspects to time here.

There&#39;s the measurement of rate of change. So if something is totally unchanging, then time does not pass for it since there is nothing to measure. I&#39;m not sure whether this really is an achievable state - for something at absolute zero, it might not be changing but its state is created by an external cooling mechanism so it is still subject to the passage of time because it will change if the external mechanism stops working. Time is only stopped when everything in the universe is at absolute zero.

Secondly, there&#39;s the perception of time. It is possible that a sloth perceives time in a slower way than a shrew and so, for example, the sun would appear to move across the sky faster for the sloth. But that is a perception rather than a measurement. The sun itself does not change its speed.

all_isone
2004-Feb-11, 10:30 PM
also been questioning the relative ideaof time.

* i dont believe &#39;time&#39; being related/justified by &#39;change&#39;
there can be very rapid changes in &#39;no time&#39;
and no changes at all in a very long strech of &#39;time&#39;

time is a concept that is been introduced mainly in relation with
earth&#39;s 24 &#39;hours&#39; move around itself, its a very relative concept
(hence &#39;sols&#39; discribed for Martian days and its relative relation to &#39;time&#39; )

Skywise
2004-Feb-11, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by TheThorn@Dec 30 2003, 02:26 AM
According to John Archibald Wheeler,

If time didn&#39;t exist, then everything would happen at once.
And on that note...

"Time is merely nature&#39;s way of preventing *everything* from happening, all at once."

:)

- Skywise

MissV
2004-Feb-23, 01:05 AM
Yes time exists. It is the space that calculates from the moment Earth is pinpointed here today, until next year when Earth is at this same point again. That is the space of one year. That amount of time, is different for every planet that revolves around Sol, because it takes more/less days for the other planets to encircle Sol. Smaller increments of time are determined by the planet&#39;s rotation each day, from now, until tomorrow at this same time of day. Time is movement, while you watch the sun go down, or when you first see the leaves fall from the trees. Time signifies something has changed. Now, to a bigger question, is there time, when one is out in space, not within a solar system, but just flying through dark matter?
Miss V

Sp1ke
2004-Feb-23, 02:13 PM
Wherever you are, as long as there are atoms, you can measure half-lives of decaying atoms etc. so you can measure the passage of time. Time (as that period between two events) may not have a physical existence but you should always be able to measure it therefore it will exist everywhere (and everywhen&#33;).

stevo_jimmy
2004-Feb-23, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by TiMiX@Dec 9 2003, 10:56 PM
Well it would, but you wouldn&#39;t know it. For instance... people say its the "TIME" taken for something to travel from point A to B. If we didn&#39;t have a conscious memory to remember point A, and we are only seeing point B no time would have pasted because we never awear of it. So its only our abillity to remember things that time exicts, take that away and the time scale goes with it.

Another way of thinking about it is when you are asleep. When your sleeping you have no sence of time do you? Because you not conscious of it, or not remembering it. People that have been in a comma for 19 years wake up thinking its been only afew hours. Things still move and your only awear of it when you become conscious again, when waking up.

Tricky isn&#39;t it (o:
I remember a short story by Stephen King in the collection Skeleton Crew. A scientist invented a way of long distance travel involving two "portals" and tested it using rats. When he put them through head first they came out the other side dead. If put through backwards without putting their heads through they remained alive. This method was then commercialised and used for transport. However people had to be put to sleep for the duration, one boy didn&#39;t take the sleep inducing drug and remained awake. On arrival (a few seconds later according to their watches) the boy&#39;s body had not aged yet his mind had aged infinitely. It occured that if unconscious the journey lasted just an instant yet if conscious to the mind it was an eternity. I know this is a fictional work but it illustrates the point that time as far as I&#39;m concerned is something which we perceive, with a better understanding of time, possibly beyond human capabilities it may very well be possible to manipulate time. The very fact that time can be perceived means that it must be real.

jamerz3294
2004-Feb-24, 09:33 PM
You all have missed the boat entirely. As I was reading this thread, I needed to go take a dump. the fact that said dumpage occurred is proof enough that time exists B)

dgold44
2004-Nov-14, 01:12 AM
Great feedback&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; good ideas&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Personally, I think it is entropy that gives time a forward sense of direction.

For example) if a dish drops it shatters and breaks. You dont see broken fragments of dishs all of suddenly repiece on there own. This is due to entropy.

Time is very relative and can be distorted and altered but there is some forward direction that can be observed, such as decay&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Sure atoms and moleclues dont have a sense of time but complex organisms do like humans&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Even if we did not remember the past it does not mean that it happen&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

astromark
2004-Nov-14, 10:03 AM
:rolleyes: No I cant agree with this asumption,&#39;Time exists.&#39; That makes it sound like an elament or force or some thing we might see... Its not. :o
:unsure: Any given moment in time commes at us from the future and in an instant has become history. We cant know what is there untill its here, now thats gobledeegook if I ever saw it :lol: I think it is safe to say that everthing in space is moving. The apparent speed is entirely dependant on the relative movement of the objects. To each other. Nothing detected as yet has no apparent movement.
We measure the distance things move by useing &#39;time&#39; to compare the placment of objects in space. The blink camera uses two images taken at diferent times to &#39;see&#39; the movement. Does time exist? No. it does not. its a scale we use to make comparisons, its a file, or memory if the sequance of avents. Its not a thing in itself. Just a tool that we invented for our own finite existance.... :blink: :(

JESMKS
2004-Nov-14, 05:28 PM
If beyound the Universe, if such a place exists, it might be free of all matter and free of light, other radiation and gravity from our Universe. At such a place, time would not exist as nothing happens. Just my opinion.
Jack

bigsplit
2004-Nov-15, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by TiMiX@Dec 7 2003, 12:24 AM
Was talking to my dad the other day and we got on the subject of time, he thinks it does excist and i don&#39;t. Your thinking..... how can i think time doesn&#39;t excist? :rolleyes: Its tricky to explane, but i&#39;ll give it ago :D

Thinking in a universal sence, with atons and electrons and all the things that go into building you and the chair your sitting on. All these things don&#39;t remember anything, thay have no awearness they just flot about and don&#39;t know what they just did anymore than thay know what there about to do.

We as humans have the abillity to remember, so to understand and explane to our selfs the diffrence from what we remember, to whats happening now we invented time, so we can measure and keep track of this. If we couldn&#39;t remember, there would be no time.

But we can remember, so time does exist... right?

Yes and no. In our consciouse world yes it does, but in the real world of atons and electons, the very things are consciousness are made of, no it doesn&#39;t.

Hope that made some sence :D I say some of the strange things a normal conversation with ya dad can turn in too :lol: :D
The answer to your idea would also take the form of a question. If there was no time would you have memory? The answer is certainly no. If memory did not exist would there be time? I disagree that electrons and the such have no "memory". The memory is in the form of their current characteristics that are the result of a previous condition. So their "memory" is intrinsic. Change certainly exists.

The idea you are toying with is the ole "if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound" question.

gnosys
2004-Nov-17, 05:28 AM
In answer to Jack, I don&#39;t know about "beyond" our universe, but at least within it there is no such thing as "empty" space, apparently. Physicists now seem to think space is a sort of "quantum foam," which -- as a consequence of quantum uncertainty -- is constantly giving birth to particle/anti-particle pairs, which tend to instantly annihilate each other. These events (I presume, but with quantum physics you can&#39;t count on it) must happen with a certain frequency -- thus even in empty space I would think there would be measurable time.

Guest_Iceland
2004-Nov-17, 11:00 PM
Well. Time indeed does exist. On some levels of the material world. And it exists all at once, past present and future. Time can be manipulated because it is in fact a part of the material world. So in fact the question should be where does time exist?

Guest_Rick
2004-Nov-18, 12:13 AM
does this mean I am not 68?

Attila Csanyi
2004-Nov-18, 12:45 AM
Of course it does. It is the duration between any two events, measured by various digital or analog instruments. :rolleyes:

alainprice
2004-Nov-18, 01:05 AM
Kevin&#39;s reply was in fact very well expressed.

I have a qualm though. He said that if you cool something to absolute zero, time dissapears for that object. That is only true from an internal viewpoint. In reality(all frames), the object loses VOLUME(since the relative speed between particles is 0), but it can still have an overall speed. A Bose-Einstein condensate hurled towards Pluto for example will have a measurable speed. It therefore changes distance. Time must be used to describe the change in distance.

Other than that one little detail, exquisite reply Kevin.

BTW, I skipped a lot of posts, so ignore me if this is repetitious.

EDIT: Dgold, again I must refer to my Bose-Einstein condensate. As we cool this pile of matter, does its entropy increase? Nope, in fact, we decrease it. The total Entropy of the universe is one way, but there are small exceptions. I don&#39;t think entropy is a good way of validating existence of &#39;time&#39;.

DarkChapter
2004-Nov-18, 01:52 AM
You all have missed the boat entirely. As I was reading this thread, I needed to go take a dump. the fact that said dumpage occurred is proof enough that time exists*

Well then, you better start getting nervous if all of a sudden you see these messages dissapearing in reverse order. :unsure:

roughnecking_offshore
2004-Nov-18, 06:23 AM
my thoughts on this are i hope simple and straight forth...using the laws of einstein...space = time/ time = space....s/t..t/s space/time continuum. time can be subjective and also objective (seeming). without space (pt a to pt B) their could be no time...without time there could be no space

Carbs
2004-Nov-18, 07:20 AM
Time is a term used to lightly, if we consider the actual meaning of the term, we might be able to understand it better... Why when having a good "time" does it appear to go faster, and the converse for a bad "time". the answer is that we have more time to consider the bad time, and less time to consider the good.

When you are a sleep your CPU is off, hence you recall nothing, unless of course you were still connected to the internet (i.e. dreaming) and some outsider got yo.

I think time is only really relative to your perception of it, and that time passes slower for some people, and quicker for others.

Matthew
2004-Nov-18, 08:31 AM
I think time is only really relative to your perception of it, and that time passes slower for some people, and quicker for others.

You are right, sought of. We all have a perception of time where by our brain fires a pulse back and forth, as we get older that slows down, or begins slowly.

In a physics time can be "slower" if you are in a strong gravitational field.
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Now lets look at this from a different perspective: time exists but suddenly it stops ina a small one light year diameter sphere. What would happen there? Would everything happen infinitely fast in that sphere, i e light travels across the sphere in 0 seconds. Or would everything stop completely, all photons are frozen in position, all molecular movement stops.

spacealien
2004-Nov-18, 11:43 AM
Someone once said, "the length of five minutes depends on what side of the toilet door you are on"

Time is something we can perceive, however it exists whether conscious beings are present or not...(tree falls in the forrest etc etc etc). Our level of perception may change, but the flow of time is separate and governs the rate of things, including our take up of memorys. If time was to slow down we wouldn&#39;t even know because our rate of memory take up would slow down with it.

The speed of time is only observable in relation to another time. Hence it would have been impossible to prove einstein&#39;s theory of relativity without the use of two clocks. There is no time constant as such (I believe).

"Time" is just the rate that things happen. It is not a substance or a force, but more a velocity - a measurement.

An earlier post mentioned that it is impossible to go backward in time. This is half true. It is possible to reverse time, but it is impossible however for conscious memory to be intact in the process. The trick is not to get time to flow backwards, but to properly insulate the travellor from the reversing of "happenings". Without such insulation the travellor would travel back, but it would be impossible to experience as the simple process of remembering time in sequence is relient on time moving forward. This disparity of time moving both forward and backward is the impossible bit.

It could be possible that the time in the universe is tooing and frooing all the time, but because the reversal of time also includes the reversal of all our memories, we are not conscious of it&#33;

Now another thing..... :blink:

I have a theory that our perception of time (absorbtion of memories) is a bit like a mechanical movie camera. If you had a fast take up, things would appear slower, and if you had a slow take up, things would appear fast. For instance, there are insects that live for only a week. It could be however that there individual take up of memorys and experiences (perceived time) is so fast that they feel like they have lived to 100 in their minds....

Just some thoughts to ponder......now time for bed.

The length of 5 minutes depends on whether you are on the internet or not&#33; Oh my got where did that 3 hours go&#33;

Alien.

Guest_Keemah
2004-Nov-18, 02:34 PM
This is my hypothesis: Time is another dimension and is past our ability of senses. The only way we can actually measure time is by our memory. Eventually we will be able to expand time to technology, but it most definetly exists.

WHITE_HOLE
2004-Nov-18, 03:29 PM
Interesting article about Space Time..
http://www.geocities.com/alienaxioms/space-time.html

:ph34r: