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NasaBoy
2004-Mar-06, 03:55 AM
Doe anybody really think that the government has aliens? Or has real information on real places where aliens live? Forget the media.

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-06, 04:57 AM
SETI type projects may someday uncover evidence of intelligent life in another star system.

However, and this is just my opinion, I do not believe we currently have, or have had in the past, any visitations from aliens. I also believe that the eagerness for that idea comes from a dissatisfaction with life as we know it on this earth, and a yearning for a superior intelligence or authority to help instruct or guide us from this morass we allow ourselves to sink to.

I believe we are on our own, and we will sink by our own neglect, or swim through our own inspired vision, dedication and will.

Responsibility bites, doesn't it?

I offer this opinion with great trepidation, since I have noticed that many of my initial posts have been a real buzzkill. Sorry.

NasaBoy
2004-Mar-06, 05:09 AM
I dunno man, the universe is so huge and stuff, that I just don't see how we could be THE only lifeforms out there...

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-06, 05:35 AM
Out there, more likely. I just don't think the odds are very high for right here. Did you see "Contact"? The aliens return a message to us from 30+ light years away. Aren't there something like 30 to 50 stars within 30 light years from us. And most aren't very good candidates for life to exist on. 30 stars out of billions of stars in the Milky Way galaxy.

And even if one of the closest stars had life and they headed for Earth when they intercepted our first radio transmissions, they would have to be advanced enough to travel at close to the speed of light to get here by now.

It just seems unlikely that any of them would've gotten here yet.

NasaBoy
2004-Mar-06, 05:51 AM
First off, never say never. Second, contact was just a movie.

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-06, 06:24 AM
NasaBoy, I never said never. Secondly, 'Contact' wasn't just a movie, it was originally a novel written by Carl Sagan, one of the best known minds in astrophysics.

Six months on the New York Times Bestseller list, and considered "Outstanding...Masterful...A Suerb first novel" by United Press International.

It says so right here on the cover.

You should take a copy to Disney World, it might take you the whole 9 days to read it. It will give you something to do if you have to wait for the rides.

NasaBoy
2004-Mar-06, 10:46 AM
The only thing i like to read are gaming mags and junk on the net. Anyways see ya later! Im leaving for Florida in like 2 hours.

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-06, 03:05 PM
NasaBoy, I'll only be 30 miles away...Oops...too late, you've already gone. No ride in the starship prototype for you this time!

P.S. Are you taking that scary looking cat with you?

DippyHippy
2004-Mar-07, 12:22 AM
NasaBoy, firstly, if you're going to start topics and open them up for debate, you're going to have to deal with people whose opinions are different from your own. There's absolutely no need to get upset about it.

Secondly, Contact was (for a change) a very intelligent movie which was, as Tom has said, based on a book written by a very intelligent man who certainly knew a thing or two when it came to SETI. Carl Sagan was one of the leading figures in the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence. Don't be so dismissive!

For what it's worth, I think there's life elsewhere but I don't think there's any concrete evidence that they've been here - yet. That's not to say I don't think they *have* visited - maybe they have, maybe they haven't - but no one's managed to convince me they've stopped by to say hello so far.

As for conspiracy theories, I think that's just a kind of paranoia that's in danger of becoming hysteria, brought about by people who don't trust the government and who fear the unknown. I also think that - like the ancients who believed the Sun, Moon and stars were gods - people have a tendency to come up with some pretty wild ideas to fill in the pretty wide gaps in their knowledge when just a little common sense and research would answer their questions!

I also think that, to be honest, half the time people don't want to know the mundane facts when the fiction is so much more exciting.

Faulkner
2004-Mar-08, 11:56 AM
You know, I don't think I even wanna KNOW what secrets the government *******s keep from us... might be too scary...

About "Contact"... I think this was a very lame book. (I know I'm gonna get the wrath of the UT forum poured on me again for saying this! :P ). It was trying to do what Arthur C Clarke & Stanley Kubrick already did 17 odd years before. In fact, it was a total rip-off of "2001". Now I thought "2001" (book AND movie) were great. I haven't even bothered to see "Contact" (the movie)... Jody Foster, my gosh... forget it!

tycho1981
2004-Mar-08, 03:03 PM
there is life on Mars, they're waiting till on the good moment to tell it :P

water found....
subsurface icewater found....
LIFE FOUND....

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-08, 04:55 PM
Faulkner, I just re-read 'Contact' last month, and I could admit that it might have been too wordy. Not nearly as wordy Kim Stanley Robinsons' "Red...Green...Blue" Mars trilogy.

But try 'Contact' the movie anyway sometime, you'll see how well it was edited down from the book, and it made contact with aliens a bit more realistic and believable, at least for this skeptic.

Faulkner
2004-Mar-09, 10:18 PM
OK, I'll give the movie a try one of these days...! (Just got too much to watch these days, ha!)


Does anybody really think that the government has aliens?

No.


Or has real information on real places where aliens live?

No.


Forget the media.

It's forgotten! :P

galaxygirl
2004-Mar-14, 12:58 AM
A while back I read 'Chariots of the Gods' by Erich von Daniken. It was on the bestseller list too. Basically, its about how he believes and has evidence that ailens have once visited Earth. It's pretty interesting.

DippyHippy
2004-Mar-14, 01:30 AM
It's also been pretty much debunked by everyone...

galaxygirl
2004-Mar-14, 01:35 AM
Thats true, but it's still a good read.

Faulkner
2004-Mar-14, 07:31 AM
I think you can easily read "ancient extraterrestrial visitations" into all our old religions & mythologies etc. I reckon the jury's still out on that one.

Why do we insist there "MUST be life out there", and then almost hysterically go around debunking all ideas about UFOs & aliens & "ancient astronauts" etc?

It's almost as if we're scared, we INSIST that alien life remains "out there"...and not too close to home!

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-14, 03:40 PM
Why do we insist there "MUST be life out there", and then almost hysterically go around debunking all ideas about UFOs & aliens & "ancient astronauts" etc?

I think we must either be looking for an enlightened authority to help lead us from our problems, or we'd like some new friends.

Spacemad
2004-Mar-14, 09:14 PM
:lol: I once read in a Sunday newspaper, back in the early 70's the serialization of a book by Erich von Daniken (whether it was "Chariot of the Gods" or another of his novels I donīt remember now). It seemed very far fetched to me even then but 30 years later it seems downright ludicrous! :D


I think you can easily read "ancient extraterrestrial visitations" into all our old religions & mythologies etc. I reckon the jury's still out on that one. Posted on Mar 14 2004, 07:31 AM by Faulkner

I couldnīt agree with you more Faulkner. :)

NasaBoy
2004-Mar-14, 09:53 PM
Ok im back, and you knooooooow I didn't expect to get ganged up like tis....ah...ok...i didn't get upset...and i respect other peoples opinions and stuff....you know....i mean gosh..... :( now im sad

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-15, 12:15 AM
NasaBoy...Don't feel sad, I very nearly invited you for a visit while you were in Orlando, just missed posting the note for you by a few minutes. And if you think you feel sad, wait til you get a load of what Dippy did to me!

Just kidding, Dippy, trying to make NasaBoy feel better...

So I can have a clear conscience when I say...GalaxyGirl, don't be lured to the dark side...

A while back I read 'Chariots of the Gods' by Erich von Daniken. It was on the bestseller list too. Basically, its about how he believes and has evidence that ailens have once visited Earth. It's pretty interesting.

Please go out and find a copy of "Crash go the Chariots", a very good debunking. In it an anthropologist explains, in the correct cultural context, how Von Daniken has misinterpreted everything in his book. At the center of the debunkination is the fact that "primitive" cultures are quite sophisticated with the materials and resources in their environment. As one friend of mine put it rather rudely, "they had nothing else to do but sit around and pound rocks all day".

Also, recently I saw on a show on TV(so it must be true) how another anthropologist solved the "how did the Inca's fit the stones in their walls together so well that you couldn't even put a knife blade in the joint" question. Basically, he showed how you can keep grinding 2 stones into each other, to get the best fit you can, and then make a paste out of a lichen and the stone powder, and you smear the paste into the joint. The lichen eats the stone, and leaves behind the mineral as a residue until their food paste is consumed and the joint is filled. Neat, Huh?

The lesson is that if we "modern peoples" can use our creativity with the tools and materials we have, we can improve our technology and accomplish incredible things. As Arthur C. Clarke once said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic".

And the word magic is in the name "Magic Kingdom", which is the segue to "welcome back from the Magic Kingdom, NasaBoy".

Oh man...I gotta get a life... :(

galaxygirl
2004-Mar-15, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Tom2Mars@Mar 14 2004, 07:15 PM
So I can have a clear conscience when I say...GalaxyGirl, don't be lured to the dark side...

I never said I believed what was in the book, I just thought Nasaboy might find it interesting. I have actually read the book you suggested too, and found it very informative. I'm just the type of person that likes getting info from both sides of the story. Personally, I believe there are ailens out there, but I dont think they have visited Earth yet, or anytime in the near future. There are many stars that could possibly have life out there, but the ones that are relatively near by aren't good canidates.

Faulkner
2004-Mar-15, 10:16 AM
There are many stars that could possibly have life out there, but the ones that are relatively near by aren't good canidates.

Not quite true, our 2nd nearest star Rigel Kentaurus is a yellow G2 star just like our Sun!

Also, maybe life springs up right across the main sequence, not just around G-type stars!?

NasaBoy
2004-Mar-15, 10:18 AM
Oh well, hey wait...there is other life out there! Thats right! My parents! And I know where they are! In our house! OMG! lol

Tom2Mars
2004-Mar-16, 04:23 PM
Personally, I believe there are ailens out there, but I dont think they have visited Earth yet, or anytime in the near future. There are many stars that could possibly have life out there, but the ones that are relatively near by aren't good canidates. GalaxyGirl

That's pretty much how I feel...

Although...Faulkner...
our 2nd nearest star Rigel Kentaurus is a yellow G2 star just like our Sun!

Since it's close enough, it should be easy to go find out. Bring on the probes!

In any event, if there is remotest chance that any aliens are nearby, we should meet them out there. If you want to meet the special people downtown, it is expected that you meet the dress code and make it past the doorman before you can sit with them and have a meal together.

No Launch, No Lunch! :P

antoniseb
2004-Mar-24, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Faulkner@Mar 15 2004, 10:16 AM
our 2nd nearest star Rigel Kentaurus is a yellow G2 star just like our Sun!
I'm not saying there's no life there, but it maybe is not 'just like the sun'. [note: Rigil Kentaurus is AKA Alpha Centauri] It is different on these counts:

1. It has a K0 sub-dwarf companion in an elliptical orbit which is sometimes as close as Saturn is to us, and sometimes as far out as Neptune. This would have a disturbing influence on planetary orbits.

2. It is much older than the sun, with older estimates around 7-8 Gyears, and newer astroseismology estimates saying 6.5Gyears. Between that and it's slightly higher mass, any planets will have experienced a bit more baking. Also, the planets were formed during an earlier era, when perhaps there was a bit less of the heavy elements available for making the rocky cores.

Faulkner
2004-Mar-25, 10:22 AM
Cool, Antoniseb. I like talking about Alpha Centauri A!!!

Well, I was under the impression that "Proxima" was "miles" away (so to speak) and didn't have much influence on the binary stars Alpha Centauri A & B...???

Also Alpha Centauri A & B are in a gravitational dance that provides "plenty" of room for terrestrial planet formation. The mass (& physical size) of Alpha A is only "slightly" more bigger than our Sun, and it is only "slightly" older ( = thus possibly MORE likely to harbour life (on one or more of its planets!!!)...?

Alpha B is a K-type star...whatever that means...perhaps even more conducive to life than G-type stars!!!???... (By way of comparison, our G-type "Sun" is ALSO a "sub-dwarf variable star")...

Who knows. But it deserves a look. And a report back!

antoniseb
2004-Mar-25, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Faulkner@Mar 25 2004, 10:22 AM
Alpha B is a K-type star...whatever that means...perhaps even more conducive to life than G-type stars!!!???
Hi Faulkner,

A K-type star is simply the next size down from the sun. It's a little less bright, a little more orange, a lot less sunburn [UV]. It's spectrum is characterized by lots more absorbtion of light by non-ionized metals than the sun has [because the K-star is cooler]. I don't know if a K-star would be more or less conducive to life. K-type stars evolve more slowly, so an isolated one could have life for a longer time than a G star. I expect that the process of Alpha Centauri A becoming a white dwarf in a few billion years will hurt the longevity of life near THAT particular K-type star. I don't know about K vs. G in terms of magnetic storms, coronal mass ejections, or other potentially harmful space weather features.

There's *plenty* of good data about the Alpha Centauri system on the web. And yes there is room for a planet forming region in the life-zone around all three component stars. My argument was that I thought the elliptical orbit of B made it unlikely that the planets [if they exists] would have sufficiently circular orbits for life. None-the-less, that is pointless speculation when there is a decent chance that in ten or twenty years we will know for certain the details of the orbits of any terrestrial planets in that system.

So, I am intersted, but I can wait. I know that any speculations I make on the subject can be proven wrong in my expected lifetime.

wstevenbrown
2004-Mar-26, 05:24 PM
Steve here. I agree with the notion that Alpha system is too unstable planetary-orbitwise for advanced lifeforms to evolve-- too many mass extinctions. You guys may be looking too far from home. Energy has been around far longer than matter, and it does self-organize. Locally, ball lightning and sprites are persistent phenomena we are not really able to explain or provide an ontology for. If intelligence is at all related to speed of information transmission (in our own case, nerve impulse velocity, horribly slow), then our local "aliens" probably experience time flow at a rate significantly different from ours. The patience to deal with creatures as slow as ourselves may not exist at the individual level in such species, so that communication with us might become a group hobby, like topiary! ;)

KeiZka
2004-Apr-11, 10:52 PM
Or, by any chance, there's some "aliens" (term is wee bit strange... i think) which habitable area is, let's say, about deepest parts of our oceans. and, if you know pacifics topography, most of these deep areas are in area with almost no people per km2. there could be anything there, or there's nothing.... (uh oh, i got imaginative again, means i'm tired ;) )