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NasaBoy
2004-Mar-21, 07:49 AM
If everything is pre-determined you might as well say we are a videogame, each with our own story mode, with its own ending....

Tinaa
2004-Mar-21, 05:08 PM
What makes you think everything is predetermined? And if life is a video game, the person playing me has certainly made some pretty stupid choices at times. Does this mean I DON'T have to take responsibility for those choices? Sweet! :D

damienpaul
2004-Mar-21, 09:53 PM
That would add a whole new twist to my students trying to justify their behaviour!

Cambo
2004-Mar-22, 11:38 PM
If things are pre-determined, ala the video game, there are still alternatives. Take that basic of games, Freecell. What are the permutations? 52X51X50X49 etc? I don't know since mathematics is not a strong point, barely a blunt dent in my knowledge. Now take that permutation further by saying each 'game' is how one person may turn out, now add a finite number of games one after the other (being the number of people in your neighbourhood, city, country or the whole lot of us, just so my theory appears logical), so we get the number of permutations multipled by N giving an outcome of "lots".
Therefore, though the individual games are pre-determined which one 'you get' is not, ergo an element of chance, ergo not everything is pre-determined.

I think I've just convinced myself, or disappeared so far up my **** that I've lost sight of reality.

jamerz3294
2004-Mar-26, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Cambo@Mar 22 2004, 11:38 PM

I think I've just convinced myself, or disappeared so far up my **** that I've lost sight of reality.
So, in other words, I'm trying to see your point, but can't get my head that far up your *$$? :P :ph34r:

Faulkner
2004-Mar-29, 11:53 AM
Like I've always said, the Truth stinks!

Weaselbunny
2004-Mar-29, 04:23 PM
and so do egg sandwiches!

If everything's predetermined, then we have no free will. That stinks!

So no-one's an individual, you're just doing what you're programmed you to do. Therefore you would be no more than an automaton. Mmmm, not liking that, how 'bout you Faulkner?

antoniseb
2004-Mar-29, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Weaselbunny@Mar 29 2004, 04:23 PM
If everything's predetermined, then we have no free will. That stinks.
If you're future is pre-determined, but no one can ever know what it is, and you have the perception that you have free-will, you can still enjoy the ride. In fact, this perception of free-will that is a factor in the choices you make.

Nick4
2004-Apr-10, 02:35 PM
I dount think that every thing is pre determend so just take life as it comes every day is a new day and enything can happan.

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-11, 02:28 AM
If you're future is pre-determined, but no one can ever know what it is, and you have the perception that you have free-will, you can still enjoy the ride. In fact, this perception of free-will that is a factor in the choices you make. But that's just pants!

I don't want to perceive that I have free will, I actually want to have it! We humans are independant little thingies! We like to think that our choices are our own (even if they're not). Just look at reverse psychology, we'll do anything to avoid feeling manipulated. I like to think that I'm the master of my own destiny etc etc. (Even though I do believe to a certain extent that things are set down.)

rahuldandekar
2004-Apr-11, 06:51 AM
A distinction should be made between 'pre-determined' and 'no free will'. They are different. The quantum physics picture of the world and the phenomenon of broken symetries make sur that some events are random.
We still don't know how our brain works. It may involve quantum processes, which may make some of our desicions random.
Everything is not determined. Some things are random.

Josh
2004-Apr-11, 11:58 AM
Does that mean that a properly working quantum computer may be as capable as our brain? a sentient computer?

Weaselbunny
2004-Apr-12, 08:35 PM
Does that mean that a properly working quantum computer may be as capable as our brain? a sentient computer?
Oh crap, anyone else thinking Skynet... or about the Matrix... goodbye Piccadilly farewell Leicester bloody Square!

DippyHippy
2004-Apr-12, 10:58 PM
The idea isn't as far fetched as it sounds... putting aside movies like Matrix and The Thirteenth Floor (a lesser film but far more thought-provoking) there was a programme on UK TV relatively recently about time travel... and it was seriously proposed that one way in which people could theoretically travel back in time was by re-creating the world within a super-computer. Obviously, the technology wouldn't exist for centuries, but if you think about it, if we're all reproductions and/or programs within a computer, it would explain an awful lot!!!!

kodakball
2004-Apr-13, 04:17 AM
I see how life is like a video game, since there is a beginning and an end, for example Super Mario Brothers. There are infinite ways of clearing the game, but the end result is the same, and after the game is over, then you realize you just finished that game, and start playing the game you we're playing before you started playing that game, It's real possibility of it happening, and eternal life. In certain terms. :lol:

DippyHippy
2004-Apr-13, 04:30 AM
Well quite literally *everything* has a beginning and an end, so I wouldn't take that as evidence of anything...

StarLab
2005-Jan-04, 05:11 PM
I think we can bring this topic back up again...

OK, let's get away from the videogame thing.


A distinction should be made between 'pre-determined' and 'no free will'. They are different. The quantum physics picture of the world and the phenomenon of broken symetries make sur that some events are random.
We still don't know how our brain works. It may involve quantum processes, which may make some of our desicions random.
Everything is not determined. Some things are random. I think Rahul has a smart point. I wonder how closely quantum physics and psychology are related?

ChromeStar
2005-Jan-04, 09:01 PM
Is this a paradox? :huh:


Assuming everything is pre-determined:

why can we see through it surely if things were destined to be we would never have been able to have come up with this concept or could we? :blink: :huh:

wjwduke
2005-Jan-05, 02:13 AM
Our "present" situation is based on nothing but our "past" decisions and circumstances period! That's what my shrink told me then. He and my ex are now happily married. Now you tell me that was pre-determined. Just kidding; but it came close! She is now married to her "ex"-best friend's husband who was my sons soccer coach. Pre-determined??? :huh:

ngeo
2005-Jan-05, 06:26 AM
If the universe has no end, how could any event be predetermined?

bigsplit
2005-Jan-05, 02:27 PM
How does the radomness of the quantum world manifest itself in a system of apparnent order, including our brain? This is the question uncertainty raises in any discussion pre-determination. And the shortest answer to that question is....Science cannot answer it. I have been told that most neuro-scientists believe that the quantum world has very little effect on the funtioning of the brain. How does order arise out of quantum uncertainty into one with predictable behaviors?

StarLab
2005-Jan-05, 05:01 PM
Maybe because the brain functions with a Yes/No Yes/Yes technique as do computers. Also because of the electrical pulses - What are "thoughts" composed of? If anything, that requires work at the quantum level.

antoniseb
2005-Jan-05, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jan 5 2005, 05:01 PM
What are "thoughts" composed of? If anything, that requires work at the quantum level.
I would like to point out that this topic is a bit outside the normal realm of the Universe Today forum. It is certainly outside the realm of "Alternative Theories".

I cannot say for certain that the understanding of the physiological thought process requires an understanding of the quantum mechanics of the neuro-molecules. The lowest level of the electro-mechanics may be too low a level to examine. It may be sufficient to understand the operation of neural networks. Similarly you wouldn't have to understand the quantum effects in the individual transistors in the CMOS circuitry that handles the routing of packets to understand many important aspects of the internet.

Ola D.
2005-Jan-05, 06:03 PM
We still don't know how our brain works. It may involve quantum processes, which may make some of our desicions random.
Everything is not determined. Some things are random.

I don't think that our random decisions are due to some quantum processes. It's just because we sometimes don't think wise enough about it.
I have the will on my thoughts and actions. Does that mean I have the will on these quantum processes that runs my mind?

I feel that quantum physics and physcology aren't related.