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imported_Ziggy
2004-May-22, 08:36 PM
I have recently made a post that talks about the idea of a United Earth, which gave me the idea for this. In Star Trek, the major political power in the Alpha and Beta Quadrents is the United Federation of Planets (U.F.P.). But in real life would something like the U.F.P. work? There are some major problems. Oviouslly the ideas on how to run a government will differ greatly between members. Who knows what kind of ideas aliens might have. In Star Trek, member alien races must even give up there independence. Could something like that ever work in real life? Or would a "U.F.P." be only a military alliance to protect member races from aggressive civilizations?

StarLab
2004-May-22, 08:43 PM
If I were you, I'd read as many of A. C. Clarke's books as I can.

Zedd_77
2004-May-23, 02:55 AM
I would be surprised if it worked, the other aliens would have to be either really stupid or sceming at something, either way, it probably wouldn't work because all of earth would have to first be united and that would mean world peace which I don't see anytime in the near future.

Greg
2004-May-23, 09:13 PM
Cooperation generally works best when the benefit of being in a group outweighs what you can achieve on your own. I do not see why a group of alien civilizations would unite under one central government, but I can see them forming a loose alliance to achieve commonly shared goals. Of course certain conditions must exist to force a need for this to happen. A crowded galaxy, which is amusingly depicted in Star Trek sci-fi (a vision I do not share- I think we are most likely athe only advanced civilization of its kind in our galaxy) would create competition for resources forcing alliances. Alternatively, an overwhelming shared threat like the borg would be impetus for cooperation. Uneven scattering of precious resources might also stimulate cooperation. If there were advanced life in this galaxy, we would most certainly have become aware of it by now as evidence of their power generation would not be subtle to detect. If one did exist they probably consider Earth akin to an exotic zoo, and if we were to make serious efforts at space travel they might begin to notice and take hostile action (like we would if a elephant escaped the zoo.) Most scenarios that I see with a limited number of civilizations in a galaxy would lead to conflict since both would see the other as competitors for resources they are entitled to.
In some way I fear what would happen when a galaxy like Andromeda merges with ours 4 billion years from now. There is a pretty good chance that an advanced civilization similar to ours controls that galaxy already and we might see an intergalactic war of unimagined proportions if we dominate our galaxy when we intercept theirs.

Deep_Eye
2004-Jun-01, 10:43 PM
Clarke uh? I'll have to look that author up. I enjoy reading, especially when its a good sci-fi! As for a united alliance-I think it would be great as long as its not a dictatorship or communism. The biggest barrier I think would be language!

zrice03
2004-Jul-03, 05:19 AM
Given the incredible time lags between inhabited planets, I don't know if a real interstellar government is possible. This is assuming, of course, that the speed of light is the fastest you can go.

Within the solar system, though, a United Planets could work. The longest communication lag would be about twelve hours, and the longest spaceflight could be only a few weeks (Turnaround trajectory).

I have a feeling that, if we do start sending people to other stars, they will be essentially on their own. Free to start up their own (hopefully non-oppressive) government. It will be like the 17th century all over again. This time, though, literally a New World.

potato slayer
2014-Aug-23, 04:17 AM
Given the incredible time lags between inhabited planets, I don't know if a real interstellar government is possible. This is assuming, of course, that the speed of light is the fastest you can go.

Within the solar system, though, a United Planets could work. The longest communication lag would be about twelve hours, and the longest spaceflight could be only a few weeks (Turnaround trajectory).

I have a feeling that, if we do start sending people to other stars, they will be essentially on their own. Free to start up their own (hopefully non-oppressive) government. It will be like the 17th century all over again. This time, though, literally a New World.


I agree. The main reason why the United Federation of Planets could work was because of sub-space communications. This method of communication allowed near instantaneous communication across the entire quadrent. Without that unrealistic form of communication, I see space travel playing out more like the halo series. With communication between colonies having to travel by starship and likely taking weeks or months to get to its destination.

FarmMarsNow
2014-Aug-24, 01:47 PM
Star Trek's really about Earth and not so much about Science. What keeps the Federation together is that the aliens mostly all have two feet and verbal communication, and the human shape is something that evolution tends towards. All aliens evolve towards the human shape before they can become something better.

Noclevername
2014-Aug-24, 01:51 PM
Welcome, Potato Slayer.

You seem to have dug up a very old discussion here. Most of the posts are from people who are no longer even on this forum. Perhaps you'd like to try some of our more recent threads?

ravens_cry
2014-Aug-25, 06:29 AM
I think it would be a lot looser body than the Federation.
An idea I had was more or less a loose body where everyone gets together to buy and sell licences to intellectual property (a different mind's different perspective could have unique turnings, but no one sells tech outright, as you can only kill that cow once.) with what little actual items being bought and sold being cultural artefacts, art and unique alien versions of commonplace or even primitive artefacts. Like I've said in another thread, "They may not want knives, but they may want *our* knives."

Jens
2014-Aug-25, 08:29 AM
I think it would be a lot looser body than the Federation.
An idea I had was more or less a loose body where everyone gets together to buy and sell licences to intellectual property (a different mind's different perspective could have unique turnings, but no one sells tech outright, as you can only kill that cow once.) with what little actual items being bought and sold being cultural artefacts, art and unique alien versions of commonplace or even primitive artefacts. Like I've said in another thread, "They may not want knives, but they may want *our* knives."

Somehow, artifacts sounds pretty difficult. We have just sold a license to people in a star system 10 light years away, so the data has finally gotten to them. We have money now, so they'll send us a catalog of possible cultural items, which we receive ten years later. Then we make a decision and then the order form, which arrives ten years later. Then they get a star ship ready, and send us the item, which will arrive in 400 years.

I would think it would be easier to just transmit information mutually on interesting discoveries, on a creative commons license, and make free use of what we each find interesting.

Noclevername
2014-Aug-25, 10:00 AM
A federation need not be interstellar. United Worlds of the Solar System? A loose government of inhabited planets, moons, and space stations, with a (necessarily) high degree of internal autonomy but agreeing to a set of unified laws and relations. Not all of the communities will join, there will be plenty of room for independent states.

ravens_cry
2014-Aug-25, 06:12 PM
Somehow, artifacts sounds pretty difficult. We have just sold a license to people in a star system 10 light years away, so the data has finally gotten to them. We have money now, so they'll send us a catalog of possible cultural items, which we receive ten years later. Then we make a decision and then the order form, which arrives ten years later. Then they get a star ship ready, and send us the item, which will arrive in 400 years.

I would think it would be easier to just transmit information mutually on interesting discoveries, on a creative commons license, and make free use of what we each find interesting.
Oh yes, it's rare. On the other hand, even the most convincing Monet copy is still a forgery. Uniqueness has a value all its own, and the luxury of having something be transported all the way will add a value in its own right. We don't like caviare because it is good, but because it is exotic and expensive.

Jens
2014-Aug-26, 03:33 AM
Oh yes, it's rare. On the other hand, even the most convincing Monet copy is still a forgery. Uniqueness has a value all its own, and the luxury of having something be transported all the way will add a value in its own right. We don't like caviare because it is good, but because it is exotic and expensive.

Any crayon drawing scribbled by a six-year-old is also an original and can't really be forged. Why do you place more emphasis on a Monet?

ravens_cry
2014-Aug-26, 03:59 AM
Any crayon drawing scribbled by a six-year-old is also an original and can't really be forged. Why do you place more emphasis on a Monet?
It's something more people can relate to as valuable, though, perhaps, maybe an alien *would* want the child's drawing more.

ravens_cry
2014-Aug-26, 04:04 AM
Any crayon drawing scribbled by a six-year-old is also an original and can't really be forged. Why do you place more emphasis on a Monet?
It's something more people can relate to as valuable, though, perhaps, maybe an alien *would* want the child's drawing more. The point is cultural artefacts have a potential uniqueness value that could make the trading of them worthwhile.