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Fraser
2004-Oct-15, 06:20 PM
SUMMARY: NASA investigators think they might have a potential reason why the Genesis sample return capsule failed to deploy its parachute as it entered the Earth's atmosphere a few weeks ago. It could be that there was a design error with a switch that was supposed to detect when the capsule was decelerating into the atmosphere. It should have deployed the drogue parachute and parafoil, but it failed to do so. The investigation board hasn't ruled out other causes, though, and will probably release its final report in late November.

What do you think about this story? Post your comments below.

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-15, 09:52 PM
We all hope they find the reason for the crash-landing of this valuable cargo.

More importantly, we hope they are able to recover the atoms of material from the solar wind.

Analysis of those atoms are suppose to answer fundamental questions about the origin of the solar system and the composition of the Sun.

http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate...ionoverview.pdf (http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/kitchen/resource/factsheets/missionoverview.pdf)

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-16, 06:18 PM
From today's NYTimes:

"In this case, four switches that were to deploy the capsule's parachutes were installed upside down, the parachutes never opened and the capsule plunged to the ground at nearly 200 miles an hour. NASA scientists are now trying to salvage the solar particles it gathered in its three-year, $264 million mission.

One of the questions we have to answer is, How did we not catch this? Dr. Michael G. Ryschkewitsch, chairman of the NASA board investigating the accident, said in a telephone news conference yesterday. "Since Genesis was being assembled around the time of the Mars failures, there were a number of additional reviews. We are trying to understand in detail what was looked at and exactly what happened there. We're not yet prepared to comment on that."

The switches were simple devices consisting of weights attached to springs. The force of deceleration as the capsule re-entered the atmosphere was to stretch the springs and close an electric circuit. When the deceleration slowed, the switch was to have reopened, a signal that should have told the capsule to begin the landing process. A small initial parachute was to have popped out at 108,000 feet and six minutes later, a 35-foot-wide parafoil.

But because of the upside-down installation of the switches, the switches did not close, just as a bathroom scale does not work if flipped."

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

VanderL
2004-Oct-16, 07:40 PM
Hi Oliver,

Sounds like very high-tech switches, and whatever do they mean by upside down, I saw a video of the crash and in my view the whole probe was spinning all over the place, so it should have deployed the parachutes regardless. Couldn't they install a simpler device or maybe a remote control, or a timer or an altitude meter or something smart? The switch thing sounds a bit strange to me, anyhow maybe the results of the mission wil provide novel insights.
Ok, I'll predict 2 things: the first is that the Genesis mission will provide confusing data which will partly support any model that is around (yours included). And second they will probably reveal some short-lived isotopes that were totally unexpected.


Cheers.

Guest_michael
2004-Oct-16, 09:18 PM
How does an object falling from space to earth end up crashing at a mere 193 mph.Should not the speed be more 500-1000mph?I'm no scientist with Newton

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-17, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by VanderL@Oct 16 2004, 07:40 PM
Ok, I'll predict 2 things:

1. The first is that the Genesis mission will provide confusing data which will partly support any model that is around (yours included).

2. And second they will probably reveal some short-lived isotopes that were totally unexpected.


Cheers.
VanderL,

1. If solar-wind atoms are recovered and analyzed from the Genesis Mission , I am confident they will find data which supports the Iron Sun. After all, solar-wind atoms recovered and analyzed from the Apollo Missions provided the first compelling evidence of severe mass separation in the Sun.

See "Solar Abundance of the Elements", Meteoritics, vol. 18 (1983) pp. 209-222.

2. Unfortunately there is no clear explanation of the measurements that will be made on material returned by the Genesis Mission. If short-lived isotopes from the Genesis Mission are measured, I would not be surprised if they see short-lived isotopes from nuclear reactions near the solar surface.

As noted in references 33-35 of the following paper, nuclear reactions near the solar surface are making N-15, L-6, and Be-10.

See: "Composition of the Solar Interior: Information from Isotope Ratios", Proc. 2002 SOHO/GONG Conference on Helioseismology, ESA SP-517 (2003) pp. 345-348.

http://www.umr.edu/~om/abstracts2002/soho-gong2002.pdf
http://www.umr.edu/~om/abstracts2002/soho-gong2002.ps

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

antoniseb
2004-Oct-17, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by om@umr.edu@Oct 17 2004, 12:14 AM
I am confident they will find data which supports the Iron Sun.
I am confident that the Gensis data will not contradict the Iron Sun theory in any new way. It will simply refine the data we have about current element and isotope abundances in the solar wind. This will show that the solar wind is mostly Hydrogen, and that the Earth has been mass fractionated to favor heavy isotopes. Dr. Manuel will argue that it was the Sun, not the Earth that was fractionated. Genesis will provide no new information that will either prove his case or shoot him down.

VanderL
2004-Oct-17, 09:31 AM
Thanks Antoniseb, Oliver,

So basically we will learn nothing new from the Genesis data, "only" more precise measurements?
Hmm, btw what do you think of the "switch" story?

Cheers.

antoniseb
2004-Oct-17, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by VanderL@Oct 17 2004, 09:31 AM
So basically we will learn nothing new from the Genesis data, "only" more precise measurements?
There is a possibility that we will learn something surprising and new. I am confident that it won't provide additional new observations that kill the Iron Sun theory. The more precise data may also tell us some things we couldn't have known before. Take a look at the science section of the Genesis website.

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-17, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by antoniseb@Oct 17 2004, 12:56 AM
This will show that the solar wind is mostly Hydrogen, and that the Earth has been mass fractionated to favor heavy isotopes. Dr. Manuel will argue that it was the Sun, not the Earth that was fractionated.
Yes, Anton.

Mass separation in the Sun has already been confirmed by the observation that light-mass s-products are systematically enriched in the photosphere itself.

See the composition of the Sun after surface abundances are corrected for this mass separation.

http://web.umr.edu/~om/images/Figure4withCaption.gif

Other figures showing mass separation in the Sun are posted on the Iron Sun thread.

http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.p...pic=2544&st=645 (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2544&st=645)

There is no longer any reasonable doubt where the mass separation occurs.

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-19, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by antoniseb+Oct 17 2004, 12:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antoniseb &#064; Oct 17 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I am confident that the Gensis data will not contradict the Iron Sun theory in any new way. It will simply refine the data we have about current element and isotope abundances in the solar wind. [/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-antoniseb@Oct 17 2004, 10:05 AM
I am confident that it won&#39;t provide additional new observations that kill the Iron Sun theory. [/quote]
Anton,

You may be right, but I sincerely hope you are wrong.

I cannot imagine taxpayers opinion of NASA if they learn that:

a. Despite all the grandiose news reports about determining the composition of the Sun

b. After spending over &#036;260 million of public funds on this project

c. The Genesis Mission cannot distinguish a ball of Hydrogen from a ball of Iron &#33; &#33;

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

antoniseb
2004-Oct-19, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by om@umr.edu@Oct 19 2004, 06:59 AM
I cannot imagine taxpayers opinion of NASA if they learn that
The Genesis Mission cannot distinguish a ball of Hydrogen from a ball of Iron &#33; &#33;
Heck, Cassini cost much more than Genesis, and it can&#39;t tell a ball of Hydrogen from a ball of Iron.

My point [related to a similar point that you&#39;ve made repeatedly] is that the Genesis probe was not designed to look at the deep interior of the sun, it was designed to look at the composition of the solar wind. With this more detailed knowledge, there is a likelyhood that our understanding of what is happening in the outermost part of the sun and in the corona will be revised; but unless there is some unexpected very deep mixing going on, the Genesis data can only provide tertiary implications about the deep interior.

Better understanding the outer part of the sun is a very valuable thing, even if what is discovered does not either support or undermine your theory. Also, as you&#39;ve pointed out, your best hope is to look for very low energy anti-neutrinos.

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-19, 03:39 PM
Anton,

Your statement is at odds with the Genesis Mission Overview.

Please see this quote from the NASA/JPL news item:

http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate...ionoverview.pdf (http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/kitchen/resource/factsheets/missionoverview.pdf)

The Genesis Mission: An Overview

When looking to the skies we may wonder:

What is the Sun made of?
What makes the Earth different from other planets?
Are the planets made of the same stuff as the Sun?

Of course, we have no eyewitness account of the formation of the solar system. Scientists are attempting to understand what happened back then from pieces of evidence including meteorites and interstellar dust grains. An additional piece of evidence that would help in this quest for understanding is an accurate knowledge of the detailed composition of the Sun.

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

antoniseb
2004-Oct-19, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by om@umr.edu@Oct 19 2004, 03:39 PM
Your statement is at odds with the Genesis Mission Overview.
Yes, I doubt that the Genesis mission results will tell us what the core of the sun is made of. I think their mission overview was a little vague about what parts of the sun they could measure.

Janice
2004-Oct-20, 04:11 AM
:o So much hard work and the parachute system didn&#39;t work&#33;... :D It&#39;s actually pretty funny if you think about it&#33; :lol:

om@umr.edu
2004-Oct-22, 03:52 AM
Hi, Janice.

Mostly I feel very sad.

This event makes NASA look inept.

It lessens the likelyhood of public funding for future space studies.

Sincerely,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

om@umr.edu
2004-Nov-02, 11:06 AM
Does anyone know when Genesis data will be coming out?

Early results will tell the contamination problem.

E.g., the Xe-130/Xe-132 ratio in the solar wind is 7% higher than it is in air.

If the contaminated Genesis foils only reveal a 3.5% enrichment in the Xe-130/Xe-132 ratio, then contamination with atmospheric xenon accounts for half of the xenon in the foil.

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om