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View Full Version : "life" if found,what will be their language



suntrack2
2004-Dec-14, 01:35 PM
it has been said by the old people couple of times that besides earth there is life in universe in existence, the form of their appearence, intelligence, numbers, size, may be different and one thing is also important that "life" if found in the universe then what will be their language to converse, how the aliens use the language? or they just have a sense of only signs and observational languages or a guess language of the expressions on their faces? beyond our solar system, beyond crores of kilometeres there is a possibility of visual substances may be living? we still have some guess about the life in the universe whether it is in existence? fullproof still no one can give. may be to reach to them lacs of years period is short. lot of questions are there, 1. their eating habits,2.sources of food, 3.what they are doing, 4. their life span, larger or shorter or same as we people 5. their look 6. their population in the universe 7. technology they are using.

sunil

Betelgeuse
2004-Dec-14, 03:58 PM
To us, earthlings, language to is meerly a system for communicating ideas and feelings using sounds. To any intelligent life form from elswhere in the universe it would mean nothing at all (most probably - unless we live in some sort of mirrored universe etc). You just have to think about this in the way that we would if we heard an unfamiliar language - we wouldn't understand.

ChromeStar
2004-Dec-14, 06:26 PM
Hi Suntrack2

there won't be any hard evidence until we actually meet or discover alien life.

also with regard to your question about what will they eat and do etc... one can get a good idea from looking at life here on earth in all it's forms life on earth has evolved ( i believe) to be capable of surving in a perticular environment.

for example fish have fins to allow for swiming and a cow has it's teeth to eat what it eats - grass etc... as for people we have hands, we use them not to help us adapt to environment but rather to adapt the environment for us!

GOURDHEAD
2004-Dec-14, 07:18 PM
... and one thing is also important that "life" if found in the universe then what will be their language to converse, how the aliens use the language? Establishing communication with space aliens should not be very different from how Columbus' crew etablished it with the American aboriginals.

Betelgeuse
2004-Dec-14, 08:24 PM
That's right, I guess! All depending on if they have any sort of arms, mouth etc to use for conversing!

rahuldandekar
2004-Dec-15, 05:58 AM
Gourdhead, I belive the alins will be very different, orders of magnitude different compared to the aborigenes. Our language, use of sound for communiation, has been brought about by some specific conditions existing on planet earth, certain paths taken by evolution. Even if aliens apeak, which they might not ( they might use light signals for communiation), will they use sound waves in the human ear's hearing range?

Betelgeuse
2004-Dec-15, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by rahuldandekar@Dec 15 2004, 05:58 AM
will they use sound waves in the human ear's hearing range?
Not neccessarily - it's highly unlikely. They may use (hear and emit) sound waves in the ultrasound range maybe take a likelyness to sea creatures!

suntrack2
2004-Dec-15, 10:39 AM
Rigel, are these all our pre-occupations of mind? what possibility if we judge simply a different mode of coversations of the aliens, because if they are sending the signals [suppose] by only whispering then the frequency of the sound may become later weak, and there is rare possibility to reach as it is. and what they had whisper it is also a difficult task to detect clerly.



sunil

astromark
2004-Dec-15, 12:08 PM
Highly speculitive subject; As to wether an alien would hear anything or even see as we do. If their home inviroment has an atmospher that is not clear, thier eyes would be very diferent if they needed them at all. In order to hear there would need to be an atmosphear consisting of substances that could conduct sound. None of these things are facts, we wont know the answer untill we find them. Look at our inabilaty to comunicate with any other spieces on earth, its a good indacater that we are going to have trouble. Some sort of thought transfer...no. What language would you use. What language do you think with,? We are in for some suprizes.

GOURDHEAD
2004-Dec-15, 01:47 PM
Our language, use of sound for communiation, has been brought about by some specific conditions existing on planet earth, certain paths taken by evolution. Even if aliens apeak, which they might not ( they might use light signals for communiation), will they use sound waves in the human ear's hearing range?
Carbon based life will have evolved in and around liquid water and very likely within or under an atmosphere. The electric charge affinities of the elements, forming and maintaining life, for each other within such an environment will allow, perhaps require, responses to that environment that produce multicellular, or equivalent, living organisms. Multicellulars will require something equivalent to a central nervous system to allow specialization by function of organs and organelles and the directing of the transfer of energy appropriate to the sustaining of life and growth both at the individual and species level. The central nervous system and the organism within which it operates will respond to this environment for some of the individuals such that they have a survival advantage over those without the ability to so respond thus driving their evolution correspondingly. Note that no guiding intelligence is invoked here; it's just CHON elements and their asociates coming together at various times in various ways, some of which "stick" better than others. If this argument has merit, and our existence says it does, and if two locomotion and two manipulation limbs prove to be optimum, most carbon based, technologically competent, aliens will, setting skin coverings and color aside, very likely look like some member of the Earth-based multicellular biota. I don't consider responding to different ranges of frequencies of light and sound or having a comfort zone bounded by different temperature limits or atmospheric (or water) pressure limits to be significant differences. However, such attributes will very likely change the proportions of volume and mass relegated to body parts required to perform in these conditions.

Once such aliens achieve technical competence at a level at which we will be within a 1000 years, they will be able to modify their appearance to take on the appearances and elemental constituents best suited for whatever they wish to do. Perhaps even modifying themselves to perform in the vacuum of space "naked" indistinguishable from living asteroids.

If non-carbon based life has evolved, in spite of my conviction that it can't, the argument presented above is less likely to obtain.

Betelgeuse
2004-Dec-15, 04:01 PM
Not neccessarily - it's highly unlikely. They may use (hear and emit) sound waves in the ultrasound range maybe take a likelyness to sea creatures!

I do appologize! I meant to write that it could be highly likely!

Think about this -
Establishing communication with space aliens should not be very different from how Columbus' crew etablished it with the American aboriginals.

I was walking passed a field of sheep earlier today and this sentence sprang to mind - if we discovered life using a "sheep's" form of communication, how would we deal with it? We wouldn't be able to converse.....

netguy
2004-Dec-16, 04:49 AM
In the context of all potential alien communications,
we must consider the wisdom of a Prime Directive:


"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation."

Gambit Star
2004-Dec-16, 05:01 AM
I think it will be a matter of we wouldnt need to communicate because a 'superior' race would already know exactly what we were about to do or say in advance.

For them it would be like watching a favorite movie you have seen a thousand times before.

Bobunf
2004-Dec-16, 05:51 AM
It’s surprising to me that the reasoning of the prime directive story premise is so readily accepted, and that this reasoning is generally felt to reflect historical experience; namely that contact between technologically asymmetrically developed civilizations will be adverse to the less developed.

This is not the historical experience.

Consider, for instance, the Roman conquest of Italy, Gaul, Spain, Portugal and much of the rest of Europe and parts of Asia and Africa. That conquest could be phrased: The indigenous peoples adopted the more beneficial Roman ways; internecine violence was largely eliminated (Pax Romana); the rule of law was strengthened; Roman citizenship was extended to most portions of the Empire; Roman architecture, literature, art, and technology were introduced to the colonies; and an age of peace and prosperity never before approached emerged which lasted for centuries and whose impact continues to the present day.

Rome served as a conduit not only for their own relatively advanced civilization, but also for that of Greece, and later Christianity. Rome laid the groundwork for the abandonment of slavery with the adoption of Christianity.

Or consider the Moslem impact on Spain for almost eight hundred years ending in 1492. After 1492 the Spanish conquered the better part of two continents, as well as the Philippines and enclaves in Africa and other parts of Asia; bringing their language, religion and architecture, most of which is intact to this day; five hundred years later.

The descendants of the Native people are largely the present day inhabitants of the Philippines, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador and to a lesser extent those parts of the United States that had been controlled by the Spanish and their Mexican successors until the Mexican American War of 1846. Much of the Native American culture survives, including languages, art, philosophy; the technologies of corn, tomato, potato, squash, pumpkin, and tobacco have spread throughout the world.

There are many, many scenarios that have played out with diverse cultural contact:

The Roman conquest of the Jews and the final, crushing defeat, in the fourth year of Vespasian at Mazada certainly had a different effect from what you might predict of a more advanced civilization encountering a less advanced one. Two thousand years later, Rome is only a memory, but the Jewish flag flies over Mazada; and the accomplishments of both cultures are honored throughout the world.

The British encounter with the Maori in New Zealand from about 1840 doesn't reconcile with a prime directive model of cultural contact. What would have happened to the Maori if the British had left them undisturbed? Contact would have taken place once the British were incapacitated by World War II, or earlier events. And the Maori would have faced an even larger cultural shock (airplanes, instead of sailing ships), perhaps instituted by unpleasant people like militarist Japanese or Nazis.

The Turkish conquest of Greece in the middle ages doesn’t reconcile with a prime directive model. Nor the Japanese absorption of Okinawa. Nor the Dutch impact on Indonesia ending only in 1942. Nor the impact of European civilization on Japan in the 19th and early 20th century. All of these historical processes had outcomes different from each other, sometimes with startling outcomes, and none resembling a prime directive model. And the list goes on endlessly.

Rather than the prime directive, what sort of historical Law of Contact could one derive from these observations? Perhaps, “Contact between asymmetrically developed cultures is beneficial (as defined by the HWW index) to each culture in proportion to each culture’s index of adaptability times the square root of the population ratio and…”, etc., etc.

The prime directive appears to be a very bad idea, a story premise largely ignored even within the stories.

Bob

rahuldandekar
2004-Dec-16, 05:53 AM
Gambit Star, The universe is not deterministic. We cannot figure out what others are going to do, even wit the best technology.

However, Welcome to the forum

trevorsproston
2004-Dec-16, 11:44 PM
On any aqueous planet such as the Earth there will be life. If you're familiar with Jack Cohen's concepts of "Universals" and "Parochials", this will be easy to understand. A "universal" is something which has happened lots of times on Earth - as Jack puts it, the 4 F's: Flight, Fur, Photosynthesis and Fornication. A "parochial" has happened only once: bone is a parochial, having originated solely in the bony fish, who passed it on to their descendants, including ourselves. We owe our teeth, of which more later, to their fish scales.

Intelligence is also a universal, as it has arisen several times: Mantis Shrimp, Cephalopods, Cats, Dogs, Parrots, Chimps, [possibly] Human Beings. But extelligence, access to vicarious experience via reading, writing, story telling, art, music- in short, all the aspects of culture- is a uniquely human creation, and is achieved through complex language. This is a parochial, and it may be unlikely to appear elsewhere. Other animals can acquire language if they are already disposed to social living, such as African Grey parrots, and they can use it meaningfully, if in a limited way, but the important thing is that they have not originated it.

We must allow our imagined aliens to be at least as compulsively communicative as ourselves. But we should not forget things that affect the biological aspects of language, which are just as vital to understanding. For example, we produce language via pressing into service organs that were not designed specifically for the purpose - tongue, teeth, lungs etc. If we are typical, then language is a very recent arrival, and we have been obliged to use pre-existing structures for new purposes. Presumably our extelligent aliens will be forced to do the same. Sound prodcution and reception are also universals, and sound is by far the most flexible way of passing complex information between individuals and over long distance. In the case of an extelligent, air-breathing cephalopod, this sound information might be accompnied by complex gesturing with tentacles and skin colour/ texture changes [this is of course analogous to Chinese modifying meaning through tonal variation]. But these visual signals would only be good at close range, so it would have to develop a language which could work down its equivalent of a telephone, and produce a written version which could be understood at points distant in space and time. Perhaps it would develop two languages - one for general daily interchange, and a separate one for intimate, one-to-one communication.

In addition, we cannot forget psychsological factors. What would a cephalopod dirty joke be like? We have the concept of sex being dirty via the unrelated fact that our reproductive system is mixed up with our excretory system, and this physical proximity has had a profound influence on our thinking, Indeed, whole volumes of religious writing of many cultures has been initiated by this physical fact. Would an extelligent cephalopod ever be able to comprehend this obsession?

It's entertaining to imagine what a human/cephalopod dictionary might look like. Also, would they find us pathetically inarticulate, due to our limited capacity to gesture, and to our being chromatically illiterate?

astromark
2004-Dec-17, 01:39 AM
I have done you the honer of reading your post sevral times, and I dont think you have the slightest idea of what we might find. Nor do I,I must add. I find it troubling that you think that any other spiecies might comunicate like we do. Our attempt at comunication has been pathetic. We have not comunicated with any of the other life forms we share this earth with. We sort of bribe, bullie,and talk to them. None of us understand them. How are we going to comunicate with an alien race? Its not looking to promising is it? Only if they have some sort of visual receptive funtion could we use images. What if they dont. Maybe they cant see in the visable light spektrum. Sound only works if you have ears designed to recive the vibration of air. I think this subject could get very interesting. We take a lot for granted dont we.

Z28Jerry
2004-Dec-17, 03:45 AM
Odd that I see this topic today. I was in a meeting with a bunch of Japanease engineers and only one translator. The application we were dicussing was very techical, and there could be no misunderstanding between all of us. I remember thinking about 3 hours into the meeting (as I have expained everything to them 3-4 times, and they explained thier side to me 5-7 times) that if I am having this much trouble with life on my own planet, that meeting a new race from another world would present a challenge in the language barrier depatment.

I still don't know if either side walked out of that meeting today with a firm understanding of eachother's key points.

suntrack2
2004-Dec-17, 12:01 PM
jerry,astromark,and rover,
you have pointed out nicely, imagine if they are speaking a language with a speed of 200-300 characters per seconds, how far we be able to detect these one, and what will be the meaning of their language pizza? jerry has finely pointed out that on our own land we are not able to understand or to clear any point in 1-2 events, Mr.Jerry has quoted that 5-7 times after giving chance to understand that japnese delegation failed to proceed.

It is quite clear that when we say or we have made, or we have named the group of words a specific language, my question rests unanswered. i.e. what will be their language?
this is just amazing but necessary to think.

sunil

eburacum45
2004-Dec-17, 12:53 PM
Here is an alien species I have made recently, first exposed to the light of day right here on the Bad astronomy forum;

http://www.orionsarm.com/topics/Cybyota.html
their language has some similarities to a computer file transfer protocol, and is transmitted by infrared organs or high pitched vocalisations.

The most human of the species descended from the Cybyota are the General Purpose species, the so called Jeepers.

http://www.orionsarm.com/xenos/Jeepers.html

trevorsproston
2004-Dec-17, 02:39 PM
Dear Astromark,

I agree fully with your comment that I don't know what I'm talking about. In the absence of any concrete evidence of the existence of alien life, all has to be enjoyable speculation, reasoning from the particular to the general. It is interesting however that all the intelligent species I've referred to have minds that function in similar ways, despite being organised in very different ways.

I merely draw your attention back to the concepts of parochials and universals. Camera eyes are universals, as they have appeared more than once in unrelated species [cephalopods and vertebrates]. Camera eyes are filled with water, and this limits sensitivity to certain frequences, such as infra-red and ultra-violet, although certain birds of prey can see some way into the ultra-violet, insects, with hard, dry eyes, see far farther into the UV spectrum than ourselves. Don't forget that UV radiation is actually harmful, so this must be borne in mind.Unfortunately, insect eyes cannot focus. Thus any speculative alien using camera eyes will have a similarly limited spectrum to ourselves, although it will obviously be influenced by the colour of its sun. While in the sea, my cephalopod alien can benefit from odours and vibrations flowing through the water. Once in air, being 740x less dense than water, it will have to make adjustments, and signalling by sound is highly likely. As regards how fast they could communicate, that will depend on their vocal apparatus, and its mass, as muscle will have to respond to nervous stimuli. How difficult it can be to talk intelligibly at high speed is easily demonstrated by our own tongue twisters.

Astromark, I am simply indulging in idle speculation, nothing more serious than that. The problem with "what if...?" scenarios is that it's easy to get carried away.

I also agree that we have quite enough trouble understanding each other, as you point out at the start of your reply. Perhaps it's part of some cosmic plan that we won't meet any aliens until we finally understand each other.

GOURDHEAD
2004-Dec-17, 04:03 PM
What if they dont. Maybe they cant see in the visable light spektrum. Sound only works if you have ears designed to recive the vibration of air. I think this subject could get very interesting. We take a lot for granted dont we.
Of course we take a lot for granted. However far we extrapolate from what we know from experience, we have to start with a set of assumptions that are highly likely, apply what we know about physics, chemistry, and biology and determine what the universe will permit in the course of vigorous competition.

Cephalopds will have an advantage in an environment such as I imagine exists at Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto, perhaps even Titan. That is until the boneheads evolve with backbones or the equivalent. If the biology of the cephalopods equips them with hypergolic torches and sufficient manipulative appendages and skill, they could possibly supress the development of the boneheads and stay in charge...unless the boneheads can escape to locations isolated from that of the cephalopod.

The parameter that is difficult to evaluate and properly weight is the physical suitability of the organism to its environment. My guess is that the cephalopod is so well suited that there will be too little pressure for it to develop technology as we know it; less applicable to the boneheads. Our own ancestors had to resort to "silicon technology" to survive the non-humans and surviving each other lead to the technology development race which yet endures.

My guess is that competition is the master sorter and establisher of the top of the "food chain". It is competition that will drive most aliens to look sufficiently like us that we will be able to draw useful comparisons and avoid being overly frightened. Obviously, carbon based, DNA controlled organisms have been assumed, although I'm not certain that the universe has forbidden all others.

GOURDHEAD
2004-Dec-17, 04:13 PM
See the second input in this thread (http://www.universetoday.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1979&hl=europa) by GOURDHEAD.

trevorsproston
2004-Dec-18, 02:28 PM
I recommend that all those who are contributing to this forum get hold of copies of "Wheelers", by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart [Warner Books ISBN 0-446-52560-x] and also "His Master's Voice" by Stanislaw Lem. Both are germane to this discussion.

trevorsproston
2004-Dec-18, 02:42 PM
Galaxy may have a point regarding technological development.

If we assume that any technological society has to make certain discoveries - fire first of all to bring about change, then levers, wheels, inclined planes [which are all devices to work against gravity] etc- the aliens would need to have a physiology which enabled them to a] make the discoveries, and b] use them effectively. As these discoveries could only be made on land [a big assumption I know, but sensible I believe], our aliens would need to have made the transition to land very early on in their development [and this migration to land will take place on an Earth-like planet]. Unless of course they have developed unknown technologies, which, being unknown, can't reasonably enter discussion here. Bearing in mind all the above, I maintain that sound is probably the easiest and most effective channel for the communication necessary to develop ideas inherent in these discoveries. This is not to say that other means of communication would not also be used, as reinforcers to the sounds.

suntrack2
2004-Dec-19, 03:58 PM
thank you trevor and eburachem you have given a good information, see when we assume one kind of fact that fact covered with all possibilities, one has to be hopeful or one can keep himself optimist to hear a different language from the universe, and in my opinion also "sound" is a important medium.

Gambit Star
2004-Dec-21, 03:00 AM
I understand what you are saying Rahuldandekar, ;)

but, how would we know ? our science is a road being paved, our imagination is the distance between our infinite destination ?

How could a civilization that once, (not too long ago), believed that the world was flat and that the universe revolved around us say that our current scientific evaluations of the universe is complete to any proportions of any future perception ? :huh:

suntrack2
2004-Dec-21, 10:50 AM
gambit you are true, there are many possibilities, that we had with us, the things on earth which was happened in past can be recall, their voices, their discussion, everything related with the sound can be recover, but have we develop such system to recall that voices say for example the events in the open stage presented infront of public in the year 1155, the chaos and the loud speaking can we recall in 2004? that's a great question, if it is happened then we will get all comentry of the past, we can also detect such noises in the universe which were happened in past, if something we have develop then it is a good step towards finding the languages of the universes, but will it really happened? so if we are atleast understanding our views through a certain mode, through language, then tell me what would be the languages of the universe, what it was? what it is? what should be? these all are we trying every possibility to find out,
and before that we have to find out very firstly that who is speaking in the universe rest of earth?

Matthew
2004-Dec-22, 12:31 AM
Other intelligent life forms may not be able to hear as such may use a sort of sign language with their 20 arms and feet.

Ok, maybe not that many, but you get the idea.

suntrack2
2004-Dec-22, 09:40 AM
Mathew, that's interesting language of signs with 20 arms.

astromark
2004-Dec-22, 12:28 PM
:P Mathew makes a good point. We dont know what sort of enviroment our alien life, will be found to be living in. When we do make contact we will be amazed. I am sertain they will not look like us, sound like us ... they will after all be alien.
As for what method of comunication we might use? might I just make this point. this script you are reading is the resolt of a great deal of evolution. Colture and languages have shapped this form of comunication. and we can do some flash things with it. It can be sent instantly all over the earth va the email network. It can be digitly stored, altered, sent and recieved ..you get the idea.. But its compleatly useless for alien comunication. I think my cat understands me, but I know thats rubbish. How are we to comunicate with aliens if we cant even do it with other mamals here on earth. Do not assume aliens have developed like we have. They may never have developed language as we would reconise. 20 limbs doing signe langage might be what we find. Look at the Octipuse, it comunicates. Useing colour change and a great deal of arm waveing. Its also possible that some sort of thought transfer, might be possible. Infact might it not be possible for radio type of comunications between aliens could be how they have developed. This idea that aliens might be like us will I am sertain be found to be wrong.

GOURDHEAD
2004-Dec-22, 03:37 PM
Do not assume aliens have developed like we have. They may never have developed language as we would reconise. 20 limbs doing signe langage might be what we find. Look at the Octipuse, it comunicates. The paths open to evolution are somewhat constrained by efficiencies. Because I believe solutions to problems for which the degree of efficiency is relevant are universal and are directed/constrained by physics, chemistry, and the biology of carbon based life which are also universal, I expect a large degree of similarity amongst aliens. If life is dependant on or influenced by panspermia, the likelyhood of similarity is increased. Similarity, as I use it, is broadly defined to include the physical appearances extant across all Earth biota.

Having evolved to a level of technology development equal to or greater than ours, the aliens will have enhanced whatever sensory organs and capabilities, with which they are biologically gifted, with instruments accessing the same suite of signals and data as do we. They may not have the same development history as we, but they will wind up near the same place as they climb the ladder of technological progress. I expect resolution of language difficulties to be easily achieved.

Logical concepts and language representation and descriptions of abstract as well as mundane scenes, situations, and conditions increase the agility and manipulative capacities of the mind/brain with respect to those that are language-free or possessed of a simple set of grunts or whistles. The artifacts of complex language (such as the development of mathematics and the theories of physics) in turn fuel, challenge, and broaden curiosity which introduces us to more problems of ever increasing complexity and forces us to seek solutions. Hence we acquire the skills to identify dangers of ever increasing subtley, magnitude and complexity forcing us to forward plan over ever increasing lengths of time. Hence technology development is motivated. The universe is capable of exterminating each sentient set of aliens, and us, with a single set of tricks, some of which tricks are currently unknown to us.

Some are currently inserting human genes into other species usually in the zygote stage of development. Should we happen to thereby produce a slug or a clam, to name some of the more unlikely, capable of language, we would easily learn to exchange ideas with them, although our diet may be altered.

suntrack2
2004-Dec-23, 07:09 AM
gour, fine paragraph, conclusions are fine

filrabat
2005-Jan-02, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by rahuldandekar@Dec 15 2004, 05:58 AM
Gourdhead, I belive the alins will be very different, orders of magnitude different compared to the aborigenes. Our language, use of sound for communiation, has been brought about by some specific conditions existing on planet earth, certain paths taken by evolution. Even if aliens apeak, which they might not ( they might use light signals for communiation), will they use sound waves in the human ear's hearing range?
Back to the topic of language/communication, though it be "eons" past.

I think mathematics is an effective way to learn to communicate, as Carl Sagan pointed out in his Cosmos TV series. Call me provincial in my thinking if you must, but I think visual stimuli are the key. Couple this with the fact that certain phenomena are universal in every planetary environment and we do have a fair chance of learning to communicate with aliens, if there be any.

* = 1 , ** = 2 , *** = 3 , **** = 4 , ***** = 5, and so forth all the way to...say 100 (yes, it's only our "natural" counting system, but it's still sufficient to get our point across).

Now I think it's reasonable that any technically competent alien civilization can deduce the meaning of these symbols. Aliens will quickly hypothesize that the symbol "=" clearly means "equals" in whatever language they speak (although initially they may debate whether this is a word or mere a mathematical symbol, but that's neither here nor there for now). More solid proof will come when we broadcast or otherwise further show them how to interpret that symbol. Example of such is this list, which should be plenty sufficient to get our point across:
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ *(1)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ **(2)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ ***(3)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ ****(4)
**(2) + ***(3) = *****(5)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ ******(6)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ *******(7)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ ********(8)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ *********(9)
**(2) + ***(3) ≠ **********(10)

From this, it ought to be clear to any technically competent extraterrestrial that we are saying that our visual symbol "2" necessarily means ** of something and nothing but. Likewise for "5" standing for ***** of something. We will also make it clear that the "=" sign means "equal to and nothing but equal to", the "+" sign means "adding the numbers together and nothing but adding together". From there, it's easy to teach them what the other basic mathematical symbols mean vial similar comparisons.

Now teaching them how to read non-numerical words in our system will be a lot tougher. Firstly, our letters will likely be as unclear to them as, say, the Hindi or Arabic alphabet is to Western Europeans. There will also be two other issues:
(1) which language in the world has (a) the most consistent spelling/phonology? as in one letter means one sound and only one sound (this alone would disqualify English and French for sure, and probably German as well!) (B) which language has the most consistent grammar?
(2) political considerations (i.e. should we teach them English, Russian, Chinese, Hindi, or whatever).

I'm no language expert, but based on what little Spanish I took in school, this language seems to offer the best balance of the above factors.

Assuming Spanish is the language of instruction, we can then spell out the numbers using our system. uno=1, dos=2, tres=3, quatro=4, and so forth.

There's quite a bit more I can specuate about, but the point is that learning to communicate (at least by reading symbols) doesn't have to be more complicated than, say, Europeans and East Asians learning each others languages for the first time centuries ago.

trevorsproston
2005-Jan-03, 10:58 PM
Mathematics is an excellent workhorse. The only disadvantage is that mathematics simply proves that you exist. Teaching non-numerical concepts may be totally beyond us and them - after all, so much of our understanding is rooted in our physiology and psychology. See Stanislaw Lem's "His Master's Voice" for a definitive treatment of this problem.

Ola D.
2005-Jan-04, 06:19 PM
Mathematics would be a good way of communication, but still it's not as efficient as using language that conveys emotions and thoughts expressively. Don't forget that body language (movements) is a major way of communication too.

** (2) and *** (3) and using (+) and (=) function well to a point. What if you have larger numbers.. Eventually it'll become confusing.

What if aliens are more intelligent than humans? Perhaps they can easily understand our languages, and perhaps they have more advanced ways of communictaion.

filrabat
2005-Jan-05, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Trevor Sproston@Jan 3 2005, 10:58 PM
Mathematics is an excellent workhorse. The only disadvantage is that mathematics simply proves that you exist. Teaching non-numerical concepts may be totally beyond us and them - after all, so much of our understanding is rooted in our physiology and psychology. See Stanislaw Lem's "His Master's Voice" for a definitive treatment of this problem.
I'm not dismissing Lem's book (I haven't even heard of it). You do have an excellent point. It may very well be that their psychology is too radically different from ours for us to communicate easily with them. On the other hand, there's no proof that they WON'T be so different. At this point nobody can do any more than speculate. While we should take these possibilities seriously, I prefer to operate on a variant of Occam's Razor - All other things being equal, the simplest hypothesis is more likely to be correct than the complex one. In short, I'm saying that barring additional knowledge of how aliens operate, we should stick with what we know rather than stack hypothesis on top of hypothesis.

filrabat
2005-Jan-05, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Ola D.@Jan 4 2005, 06:19 PM
Mathematics would be a good way of communication, but still it's not as efficient as using language that conveys emotions and thoughts expressively. Don't forget that body language (movements) is a major way of communication too.

** (2) and *** (3) and using (+) and (=) function well to a point. What if you have larger numbers.. Eventually it'll become confusing.

What if aliens are more intelligent than humans? Perhaps they can easily understand our languages, and perhaps they have more advanced ways of communictaion.
Mathematics would be a good way of communication, but still it's not as efficient as using language that conveys emotions and thoughts expressively. Don't forget that body language (movements) is a major way of communication too.

True enough about body langage. However, even of aliens do tend to communicate in this manner more than they do in verbal or written manners, the fact remains that we have no clue what body language symbols mean. If even dogs and cats use facial and body language in ways that humans often misinterpret, then how can we expect (initially, at least) to understand them? That's why I say our first attempt at communication should involve mathematics and symbols (since on human-scale sizes the laws of mathematics are the same wherever in the universe you go). You are right in implying that there will likely be a lot of awkwardness and confusion on our first attempts to communicate.

** (2) and *** (3) and using (+) and (=) function well to a point. What if you have larger numbers.. Eventually it'll become confusing.[i]

I see your point, though I doubt that it will ultimately be any more difficult than teaching elementary school children to count to ever-higher numbers (recall how you learned to count to numbers higher than 10, higher than 100, and 1 million and higher)

[i]What if aliens are more intelligent than humans? Perhaps they can easily understand our languages, and perhaps they have more advanced ways of communictaion.

I assume you mean basic capacity of the brain to absorb information - in the same way humans are more intelligent than dogs. If this is true, then I think the aliens will have no problem stooping down to our level of communication. If we can learn to do this with apes (who haven't even invented a comprehensive symbol of symbolic writing, if they've developed anything remotely like this at all), then surely these uber-intelligent extraterrestrials will know how to communicate with a people who have invented some kind of symbolic writing.

As for easily understanding our languages, I find that fairly reasonable to believe; though I don't think it's reasonable enough for us to be able to count on it

Regardless, if we do make a first contact, it will be a bewildering affair for both of us.

Ola D.
2005-Jan-05, 05:47 PM
Yes, I do agree using mathematics as a first attempt. However, eventually we'll require another mode of communication. Our attempt to use another expressive language will be behind our will to exchange information and possibly adapt living with them.


As for easily understanding our languages, I find that fairly reasonable to believe; though I don't think it's reasonable enough for us to be able to count on it

But it's still a possibillity that is worth considering.
Actually, there are hundreds other possibilities which makes this whole idea of communication rather confusing and uncertain.


Regardless, if we do make a first contact, it will be a bewildering affair for both of us.

Undoubtedly! :)

suntrack2
2005-Jan-06, 10:18 AM
mathematics is a good workinghorse as trevor said, fine, well filrabat you sum up to the level as ola suggested for a another means for communication besides mathematics, and this is certain, only mathematics is not a criterian to express.
may be they are speaking a language like the signs language like deaf and dumb almost use for the communication, the finger and lips movements, you know it?

filrabat
2005-Jan-11, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by suntrack2@Jan 6 2005, 10:18 AM
may be they are speaking a language like the signs language like deaf and dumb almost use for the communication, the finger and lips movements, you know it?
A very real possibility, especially if their vocal cords (or other natural sound-making device) is not as well-developed as ours. On the other hand, it's hard for me to imagine even a well-developed pre-industrial civilization that does not use written records, even if these alien's memory systems are more efficient than our own.

Even ancient empires as vast as Persia, China, India, or Rome needed LOTS and LOTS of reliably storable and transmittable information (records of some sort) at its disposal. These empires are pretty much prerequisites for even the most primative of industrial civilizations (can you imagine hunter-gatherers or tiny agricultural city-states having the capacity to invent the cloth factory, or even sawmill?). Since these empires required LOTS and LOTS of information to survive, it's hard for me to imagine even a barely emerging industrial society existing without some kind of external storage (i.e. written records, libraries, etc). This is especially true if they must communicate to another person who is below the horizon. Therefore, It's extremely difficult how transmitting information long distances can be accomplished even by a sign-language / facial expression civlization. The symbols may very well be drawings of various body and sign languages, but they are still writing.

I suppose some civilizations can use colors instead of our kinds of symbols for their storage, sort of like a multi-colored bar code. Nevertheless, this is still visual communication that must be transmitted.

For these reasons, it seems highly likely that visual/symbolic communication will be used in some fashion by any ETs we happen to encounter.

suntrack2
2005-Jan-21, 04:55 PM
filrabit looking goodness in your discussion just keep it up.

jamerz3294
2005-Jan-23, 07:35 AM
Mathematics will be the only way to communicate (at first) with other sentient beings. Mathematics is NOT about numbers, it is a language of it's own. It is the most beautiful, graceful and possibly communicative language in the universe. This is because it describes so much, in such a way that no other written, nor spoken language can. mathematics can easily transcend concepts from the very simple, to the achingly complex, and do it with wonderful ease.
The beauty of interacting with another race of sentient beings is that we will both learn, and teach this mutual language. That will be a true beginning of understanding of ourselves, and our place in this universe.

suntrack2
2005-Jan-26, 03:58 PM
well jamerz you are saying that the mathematics we can use as a language rather than using only numbers, you mean that we have to speak in numbers like some for example : 554465465467=what is your name?(of that alien), it means the language form you would like to point out a language of digits, that's a good idea, but if when the alien talk a full paragraph then few MB quota we have to type their digits first on our laptop then the software will convert into their original meaning what that alien has said in the paragraph? nice idea you have with you JamerZ.

wstevenbrown
2005-Jan-26, 05:07 PM
1
1
2
3
5
8
13

A universal constant conveys the numerals, the base, the operation of addition, and with very little fiddling, the operation of division. Pi or e would have done as well. ;) S

jamerz3294
2005-Jan-26, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by wstevenbrown@Jan 26 2005, 05:07 PM
1
1
2
3
5
8
13

A universal constant conveys the numerals, the base, the operation of addition, and with very little fiddling, the operation of division. Pi or e would have done as well. ;) S
Looks like Fibononacci numbers to me :D there's also the constant of Phi (prounounced fee).

Following is a quote from the url: http://illumin.usc.edu/article.php?articleID=60

"It is human fascination with the infinite that also leads us to perhaps the most "underrated" irrational number in mathematics: Phi. More commonly called the "Golden Ratio" or "Golden Section," Phi has a numeric value of approximately 1.618. Although not as well known as pi or e, this number can be found in architecture, art, and nature. Herein, we discover the magic of Phi."

At any rate, the only thing that can be universal (all puns intended) is mathematics.

suntrack2
2005-Jan-30, 12:02 PM
jamer i am confuse, you intend to say the pythagorus or phi what exactly?
since the zero is the infinity then do you accept that they can acquainted with such sort of infinities, and faster calculations as well?

sunil

jamerz3294
2005-Jan-30, 04:01 PM
sunil; what I'm trying to get at (in my own confusing way :P ) is that certain mathematical expressions, in particular constants, and never ending irrational numbers, and other relationships, would form a basis of common knowledge.

As for Phi, it's simply a fun, lesser known cousin of Pi :D But it actually has many uses in our everyday world.

suntrack2
2005-Feb-01, 02:29 PM
jamerz you mean if alien speaks other than mathematical language we will confuse, :D interesting.

piersdad
2005-Feb-07, 07:51 AM
our own dolphins are very inteligent yet our communication is still very limited
so what chance have we got with an alien life form.
in the amazon river the various species of fish use electric currents to communicat as well to attack or defend.

i could imaging an alien planet that had a very strong magnetic field a life form using magnetisim to communicate
our own birds use the cutting of the earths magnetic field to navigate.

suntrack2
2005-Feb-07, 11:20 AM
well piers, very fine, the modes of our natural things can also be detected in alien when we test the language, the birds when they return their home they normally use this sort of magnetism as you are telling, and the dolphins are fine to get acknoledge, but in my mind does that alien is so brilliant to teach his language to dolphin? so far the intelectual matter is concern no one can caught hand of the humans of earth.

astromark
2005-Feb-07, 11:41 AM
No I dont buy any of this. If you all think that aliens will use numbers or speach, well I dont. Ultra sonic sound, or light vareances might be closser. We do not know. We will only find the answer to this when we make contact.
The reason we use sound is becouse we can. Numbers, becouse we began to trade and barter. My point is that we have developed into the spiecies we are only becouse of the conditions we have developed in. These conditions may not be found anywhere else.

3rdvogon
2005-Feb-07, 11:44 AM
Carbon based life will have evolved in and around liquid water and very likely within or under an atmosphere.

Note that no guiding intelligence is invoked here;

most carbon based, technologically competent, aliens will, setting skin coverings and color aside, very likely look like some member of the Earth-based multicellular biota. [/QUOTE]

You make a number of good points there.

Continuing from that -

As has been said before by others "Whales and Dolphins don't build radio telescopes"

If we are looking for a species that is both intelligent and posesses a technology then.

To go beyond a basic capacity for intelligence it will require "culture" in order to pass the knowledge it accumulates to each new generation.

To have a technology it will need to manipulate its environment - what as you say require limbs/organs that have evolved for that purpose.

To develop an advanced technology it will need to be able to manipulate and reform various materials - that means controlling their temperature and that means fire. How do you build optical instruments if you can't make glass. That pretty much rules out aquatic life forms.

Therefore whilst a technological intelligence will need a world with a lot of water it will probably live on land surrounded by an atmosphere containing some oxygen.

If you live that environment then you have the following options open to you to communitcate with other members of your own species (I shall ignore speculative ideas like telepathy for now).

A Optical signals - that includes limb gestures, facial expressions/posture or skin pigment patterns (as used by squid etc).

B Chemical signals - commonly used in among insects but rather limited in vocabulary.

C. Vibrations be they through the ground or the atmosphere.

With some combination of A. a quite complex set of communication can be built up. After all a sub-set of our own species (the deaf) can use it to great effect. It does have some severe limitations. One it is directional line of sight. Two it ties up parts of the creatures body that could be doing other things. Therefore the animal would need an extrat set of eyes that are devoted to recieving visual signals from its fellows whislt its other eyes could be devoted to "navigation" or manipulation. Imagine two human pilots in a cockpit who could only communicate with hand gestures, scary! Such an animal would also need special organs to transmit such signals (semiphore flags on top of its head!).

Using B. as a prime means of communication seems to present another set of problems. One it has a fairly slow transmission speed. Two it is severely effected my atmospheric motion. Three I have doubts that a complex language could be constructed using it.

This brings us back to C. It is omni directional, thats a plus. Whilst its transmission speed is slower than visual it is faster than chemical and less effected by wind. Its use would not distract the other senses. You can generally say it does allow for the transmission of complex patterns of information at quite high speed so all in all it has a lot going for it.

I think any organism that lives in air and did not make use of sound for communication would be failing to exploit a natural opportunity and mostly evolution does not like to do that.

So it is my guess that any adavanced technological species will use or will have used sound as a primary method of communication at some time in its history. As to what frquency its sound senses are tuned to I cannot say. It could not be very low because that would reduce the ability to produce a complex set of vibrations with a short transmission time so I guess it would need to be in the human range or a bit higher.

wstevenbrown
2005-Feb-08, 02:56 PM
Random musings on water-borne intelligences.

1) You don't need glass to make telescopes. Oil contained in a controllable membrane will do. The mammalian, piscine, and cephalopod eyes all use this principle to a degree. Understanding would be gained by studying their own eyes.

2) You don't need fire to form metal, or to develop electronics. A possible offshoot of the electric organs of water animals is electroforming. As well as electrophoresis, electroplating and electrolysis. Expertise in electronics and semiconduction (or at least, rectification) could be gained by studying numerous electrical lifeforms.

3) Waterborne life has a built-in advantage that we are not well-equipped to see:
They are born thinking three dimensionally, which we learn only with difficulty, if at all. So pervasive would be this built-in perceptual trait that any language they develop would perforce include it-- which may be one of the reasons we are so slow to learn Delphinese.

We should stop thinking (only) like monkeys, if we intend to encounter Otherness. Best regards, Steve

3rdvogon
2005-Feb-08, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by wstevenbrown@Feb 8 2005, 02:56 PM
Random musings on water-borne intelligences.

1) You don't need glass to make telescopes. Oil contained in a controllable membrane will do. .

2) You don't need fire to form metal, or to develop electronics. A possible offshoot of the electric organs of water animals is electroforming. As well as electrophoresis, electroplating and electrolysis.

3) Waterborne life has a built-in advantage that we are not well-equipped to see:
They are born thinking three dimensionally, which we learn only with difficulty, if at all. So pervasive would be this built-in perceptual trait that any language they develop would perforce include it-- which may be one of the reasons we are so slow to learn Delphinese.


OK I'll give you those points.

And I guess they would also have a more instinctive attitude to fluid dynamics.

But living in a medium which light penetrates rather poorly where vision therefore has a fairly limited range the incentive to develop telescopes might not be there. I guess they might at some stage want to develop periscopes so that they could observe the "uninhabitable" land masses on their own planet so perhaps that might in turn lead them to astronomy.

However if they want to extend their reach without discovering fire then they are going to need to jump straight to "anti-gravity" propulsion without first doing all that tedious messing about with gas turbines and rockets.

suntrack2
2005-Feb-09, 10:20 AM
interesting 3rdvogon ! and your bottom message in the article

sunil

wstevenbrown
2005-Feb-09, 01:28 PM
However if they want to extend their reach without discovering fire then they are going to need to jump straight to "anti-gravity" propulsion without first doing all that tedious messing about with gas turbines and rockets.

Or magnetohydrodynamics, which we have only lately discovered. S

3rdvogon
2005-Feb-09, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by wstevenbrown@Feb 9 2005, 01:28 PM

Or magnetohydrodynamics, which we have only lately discovered.* S

Unless I am missing something somewhere, that works OK for submarines but can you use it to achieve planetary escape velocities?

Then there is another little problem.

Air breathing creatures of course need to carry an atmosphere with them in the parts of the spacecraft they inhabit and aquatic creatures will have to do the equivalent. A cubic metre of air at 1 bar is quite a modest mass to accelerate. A cubic metre of pure O2 at a slightly lower pressure even less. Our watery cousins are going to need quite a bit more thrust to push a cubic metre of water.

Whilst I will not rule out aquatic lifeforms developing technologies, I think when it comes to space the air breathers will be at a better starting position and have the advantage. We were quicker about getting into earth orbit and exploiting the opportunities up there than we have been about getting down to the deepest parts of our own planets oceans. Who was it who said that the mammalian body was "a spacesuit for a fish", the air breathers are already half way there.

wstevenbrown
2005-Feb-09, 05:07 PM
Well done! Touche!

If I were such an enterprising lifeform, I would devise some sort of body armor to hold a small amount of water close to me, and a 'rebreathing' apparatus to bring O2 in and send CO2 out, etc. I don't wanna consider the bathroom arrangements just now..

Problems are. Solvers solve. Real intelligence will overcome-- there's not that much difference between an inborn handicap and an engineering challenge. Enough with the preaching, already.

I don't know who originated your last saying--I wish I had! :D Steve

PS: It occurred to me after the fact that creatures used to 3D freedom might have a helluva claustrophobia problem, but hey, who said pioneering was easy?

suntrack2
2005-Feb-10, 10:09 AM
well wst'brown
phobia related with a someone own's style of living with a very different style by the creature or say the human being, there are many sorts of phobia, normally the things which are done by the human being in mass called a phobia, you have stated the halluva claustrophobia, now please let me tell the details which can mosty suited here, in which connection you are saying that phobia makes anything difference while searching or studying life in the universe, or it is just created by us only.?

wstevenbrown
2005-Feb-10, 05:19 PM
If you will grant that an aquatic race might have some dim grasp of chemistry; and perhaps a bit later on, of biochemistry, it follows that:

A race which has seized control of its own genetic destiny is not constrained in any way by its “natural limitations and physical handicaps.”

The above conclusions apply to us as well. Best regards-- ;) Steve

suntrack2
2005-Feb-13, 11:03 AM
Oh! steve, that's nice conclusion by you, the chemistry and biochemistry are both interesting so far the culture of that being is concern, the alien himself start to understand that who we are then he will start his functioning as mostly suitable for us so that the interpersonal relationship they can maintain and they can get the knowledge through our expression as whether we are fearing of them whether we are responding them in a cool mood all they can be acquainted themselves when they come in the contact with the earth people, atleast they may appear with full study of the all sorts of possibilities while entering into the earth's atmosphere.


sunil

jamerz3294
2005-Feb-13, 06:12 PM
Hmmmmmmmm...... maybe the real question wether or not the aliens would want to talk with us at all?

3rdvogon
2005-Feb-13, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by jamerz3294@Feb 13 2005, 06:12 PM
maybe the real question wether or not the aliens would want to talk with us at all?

I think there is a distinct possibility they might be scared of us. In which case they would not want us to know where they are or that they even exist.

suntrack2
2005-Feb-15, 12:09 PM
jamerz, the main thing is that how to interact with the aliens and through which mode, what possibilities we can search if they found really !

wstevenbrown
2005-Feb-23, 03:24 PM
INTEROFFICE MEMO:


Note 1. All requests for planetary demolition must now be submitted in quadruplicate on form UX-565/B4 and be counter-signed by the assistant administrative officer for interstellar traffic calming

All requests will be held in administrative suspension for one cycle. All administrators are temporarily engaged in the evaluation of the request by the Delphinoids of SolIII for relocation to another thalassic planet, the solid phase of their planet having become infested by a virus-like condition inimical to all life. While sterilization by supernova induction is mandatory in such cases, due to the possibility of contagion, it is anticipated that the Delphinoids will be accorded Distressed Traveler status, in order to preserve their well-known sense of humor. Upon resolution of this singular affair, normal protocols will resume.

suntrack2
2005-Feb-24, 04:39 PM
interesting wstbrown, thanks for your coment.

3rdvogon
2005-Feb-24, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by wstevenbrown@Feb 23 2005, 03:24 PM
, it is anticipated that the Delphinoids will be accorded Distressed Traveler status,
So long and thanks for all the fish.

jamerz3294
2005-Feb-24, 07:07 PM
While many of the above examples of historical contact between disparate cultures, it should also be noted that history has many examples of the technologically superior culture totally subjacating the inferior culture. We need look no farther than our own northern hemisphere for such an example.
So, we are back where we started, trying to figure out an "alien" civilization based upon on our terrestial experience. Most likely, they will surprise us with doing things thier way, and not ours.

Z28Jerry
2005-Feb-26, 12:18 AM
Wouldn't it suck to find out they look and communicate just like us, lol. What a letdown that would be. As for dolphins, didn't we evolve from dolphins and not monkeys? Wait, wrong thread...

Re-reading through this thread leads me to only one conclusion: That we have some real creative, smart, and open minded people that browse these forums. I get so much out of threads like these...Now if you'll excuse me I'm going back to my PS2 so that I can have a 12 year old tell me I suck while playing SOCOM II
on-line.

jamerz3294
2005-Feb-27, 08:45 PM
Forget Playstation2.... if you really wanna suck at a game, try Runescape..... totally addictive...must...warn...others...

Plat
2005-Feb-27, 08:48 PM
Who knows how they would communicate

suntrack2
2005-Feb-28, 02:04 PM
what will be the reaction if the alien kept in front of mirror will he speak on?

suntrack2
2005-Mar-07, 11:57 AM
it is difficult a interpretor between alien and man, what do you think?

Nereid
2005-Mar-20, 01:15 AM
Someone else, in another thread, said 'anthropomorphism' (or something similar).

Reading this thread in one sitting, my reactions include 'wow, that poster sure was right, in spades', and 'hubris, to some rather large power!'

Some (somewhat random) points:

- time (1): homo sap. has been around for only a million years or so, and recorded history is barely x thousand years; radio telescopes aren't even a century old! Yet all these time periods are utterly trivial wrt even the history of life of Earth, let alone the universe. If we allow our speculation to encompass more 'realistic' timescales, wouldn't we conclude that most of what's been posted in this thread is narrowly focussed in the extreme?

- communication (1): by far the most long-lasting and effective (subject to definition and refinement) medium for life on Earth is chemical (smell, taste in humans interacting with the external world; essentially all there is for internal signalling) - the earliest bacteria used this to survive and reproduce, and (apart from vision) nothing much has changed in ~3.5 billion years

- communication (2): in the sense that most posters in this thread seem to have used the term, communication requires a 'mind', yet the only mind that has evolved on Earth is that of homo sap. (and maybe our ancestors, homo erectus etc). So not only are we trying to generalise from a sample of one (life), but also one (mind), which has been around for (at most) approx 1 million years

- evolution: with the exception to some references to cephalopods, all discussion here relates to mammals, and only a tiny subset of those anyway. If the 'tape were run again', why wouldn't multicellular critters have evolved from the archaea (rather than the bacteria)? why wouldn't the kingdom which eventually produced a mind have come from the protists, fungi, or plants (rather than the animals)? And if any of these outcomes happened elsewhere, how could we possibly speculate about (for example) the communications that plants-with-minds would use?

- time (2): homo sap.'s communication has a characteristic time of somewhere between 0.1s and 1 billion s (the latter is approx one generation); the lower limit is set by the speed of the underlying biological signaling systems of the brain, the upper by culture (it's probably a little greater today, perhaps 10^11 s?). While 12 OOM looks pretty impressive, it is trivial compared with the range our present-day science can examine (~33: ~10-16 to ~10^17 s), and that in turn we know isn't much more than the number of OOM between Planck time (~10^-43 s) and 100 attoseconds (we have some vague understanding of the slowest 8 or so OOM, but for the other 20 or so, we are utterly ignorant)

I think I'll stop here.

suntrack2
2005-Mar-22, 02:00 PM
really, N'rid, but the question is difficult to answer, of which language is suitable for communication with et's.

3rdvogon
2005-Mar-23, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by suntrack2@Mar 22 2005, 02:00 PM
really, N'rid, but the question is difficult to answer, of which language is suitable for communication with et's.
I vote for Beethoven

astromark
2005-Mar-23, 08:55 PM
:rolleyes: Lets first assume that we are descusing intelagent life.,and Im not even going to try and explain that. How would we comunicate? I have no idea. We have no idea. As we have not as yet astablished if there is an alien to comunicate with. We would all like to think there is or will be found the above mentioned aliens. How would we look to them? Alien, as we would see them, alien. I harp on about this a bit, but its my perception that the time line of life on planet Earth has been interupted several times. Its possible that alien life could be tens of thousands of years ahead of us or equally behind. Homo erectiouse sapeane (spelling Oops)Man. has not been around for long when we measure it against the life on this planet its self. I conlude that we should make contact in the next 300 years or so.
We may not be pleased by what with i must worn. I balieve our best effort would be to insure our servival by reaching out into the 'safty ' of the Universe. Who knows what we might find?, or how we will comunicate. Very carefully I would hope.

suntrack2
2005-Mar-24, 09:05 AM
Yaa-astro,
your assumption about the gap between two sorts of life one of aliens and one on earth, as you told there is a big possibility about their advancement of living life in the universe may be they are more forward or more backward, really funtastic,
you have a great level of intelligence especially since you have quoted, commendable, astromark,
well, you know when we go in the dezert we keep sufficient stock of water with us same as this we must be ready to speak with the aliens when they will foud to us, but the question arise of how can we be succeed to speak on.

GOURDHEAD
2005-Mar-24, 02:05 PM
Review the entry posted Dec 15 2004, 01:47 PM, tenth in this thread, page 1, the purpose of which is to argue that, amongst technically competent critters, the exchange of data and ideas will not be much of a challenge. I hold this to be true even for those who started as carbon based and deliberately modified themselves to consist of inordinate amounts of silicon and iron.

astromark
2005-Mar-25, 03:35 AM
OMG the Borg.

j0seph
2005-Mar-25, 06:33 AM
Heres something to think about.... lets say we found an alien species similar to dogs(only vastly more intelligent)... now currently we cannot understand a dog's bark... so what makes us think we could easily strike up a method of communication with this alien species which is much more complex, when we cannot even translate the language of a similar creature(dog) with an IQ of 7?

Even though a dog does not have anything meaningful so say... we could atleast try to find ways of finding intentions of each different bark, this could potentially be practice for the awaited contact and translation of E.T's language

- This would apply to almost any earthly creature

suntrack2
2005-Mar-25, 11:56 AM
Thanks joseph for your coments, dogs are relent on the "smell", they speak after getting their sense of smelling and then they speak in barking, you have given a very good instance. their intensity of barking reflects the thoughts of dogs what they think, i heard if a timid man come infront of dog, dog smells the perspiration and immediately starts fast barking, and less barking at his owner.

Sp1ke
2005-Mar-30, 01:58 PM
The difference between understanding a dog and understanding an alien is that hopefully the alien will be *trying* to communicate with us. The dog might be trying to communicate but it would probably just try barking louder if we didn't understand. Whereas an alien would hopefully try to simplify its communication and start with something simple like 1, 2, 3, 4... (One bark for yes, two barks for no).

Nereid
2005-Mar-30, 10:48 PM
Underlying most of the (recent) posts is the assumption that 'aliens' have an 'intelligence' that is comparable to that of Homo sap. I believe the technical term in psychology is 'projection'.

Without some real 'aliens' to make comparisons with, what basis do we have for assuming that these 'aliens' will conform to our projections? After all, what does the word 'alien' actually mean?!?!? :blink:

jamerz3294
2005-Mar-31, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Nereid@Mar 30 2005, 10:48 PM
... After all, what does the word 'alien' actually mean?!?!? :blink:
Sumpn 'bout those little grey guys at Roswell? :lol: Or possibly the little minded white guys in DC? :P Ooops, am now returning control of this thread, lol B)

rahuldandekar
2005-Mar-31, 07:58 AM
Nereid, you are right. But we will have to work ou a system of communication and prepare ourselves for the time when we may actually meet them. Maybe we can connect through science. They may have discovered the same ( although more , or maybe less, advanced) laws of physics as us. So, maybe we can establish commnication by this method.

Nereid
2005-Apr-01, 01:33 PM
Well before the 'language', we will have to detect the 'signal', isolate the 'channel', and determine the 'protocol'.

Of course, when we think about which channels may contain signals, we start with the science we have today, and quickly turn to where we think the 'signal to noise' ratio will be highest, given the likely resources available to generate signals. Not surprisingly, we have blind spots - in a few years' (or a few thousand years') time, it may become 'obvious' that the best possible channel is modulating the oscillation modes of relict neutrinos, or that picosecond laser pulses between Lyman A and Lyman B are by far the easiest to detect (because no 'natural' processes can generate this kind of emission), or that interstellar dust grains make the most robust 'carriers'.

Amateur radio hams can clearly detect the 'signal' from certain military satellites which use 'spread spectrum' technology (it's also used for '3G' mobile systems, and some 2G ones too - think of CDMA, W-CDMA, etc). However, knowing there is a signal there and decoding it are two very different things. Again, the gulf between what we think today is 'the obvious' way to encode and what we will think is 'obvious' a century from now may be vast. For example, spread spectrum technology today seems a very efficient means of getting lots of information into a channel, but only 100 years ago the concept of 'protocol' hadn't even been 'invented'.

And finally (?), there's encryption ...

suntrack2
2005-Apr-07, 12:36 PM
can people find the planetary noise in the universe nerid, you are really got sense to catch first signal and then move towards language, really fine nerid.

wstevenbrown
2005-Apr-07, 02:07 PM
ENCYCLOPAEDIA GALACTICA, copyright C.E.3381(Earth) = Epoch A783F429E.606
Article: Minor Planets
Subarticle: Earth
Synopsis: Uncompressed, unencrypted

Text: Nothing of cosmic importance has originated from this unremarkable planet, (aside from some novel variations in structured sound: see infrasubarticle: Bach) but there are hopes that after the standard acculturation period, new developments will occur. Survival probability under standard assumptions, with regard to Toxic Culture Shock Syndrome is presently 74.23%. The admission of Earth into the minimal sublevel of cultural interchange was long delayed due to their failure to achieve the barest minimum criterion: Communication. Many centuries were spent in a fruitless brute-force attempt to overcome the inverse-square powerloss function inherent in EMF modes, despite the obvious disadvantage of transit-time delay. This seems incongruous in the face of their occasional achievement of infrasubgoals (see infrasubarticles: circle-squaring, perpetual motion). First Contact was achieved in C.E. 2749, when a renegade physics researcher finally achieved vibration of the contiguous Calabi-Yau underspace common to all spacetime elements in the Local Light Cone. The resultant unmodulated cacophony disrupted commerce throughout the underlevels of society. After a comparatively brief tutorial during which they were assigned a transmit identity and learned the use of Single Modality Transmission so as not to disrupt other, more important communications…

tiderider
2005-Apr-07, 09:55 PM
I'm enjoying this topic! There are a lot of thoughts on it, which is great. Here are some of mine.

Although frequency ranges may vary, nearly every creature on Earth can "hear" the way we do. There are of course exceptions, such as squid, worms, snails, and some insects. But, many of them have antennae, organs, or other bady parts that are sensitive to vibration. With that, "You are not alone!" seems to be relatively easy to convey.

I mention this first to show that if there is sound on a planet(and I don't know how there couldn't be), the life there will have the ability to hear and make it. And, because I must believe that any planet we go to will surely have some Earthlike characteristics or we wouldn't, or possibly couldn't be there in the first place. That said, we would be able to make our "sound" for something ;a rock, liquid, cold, heat, sun, moon, etc. Provided there was no aggression, and an equal desire to communicate, a few exchanges of "show me yours and I'll show you mine", and the basis for common ground would be formed. Before this is attempted though, we will first want to establish the "actual" intelligence of the being. Without learning that first, we could spend decades trying to communicate with the equivalent of a tree frog. Alternatively, too intelligent, and we might regret stopping by at all. (Can you say telekinetic molecular separation?)

Observation and repetition are the keys to absorbing a new language, skill, or even idea. Pavlov's dogs didn't know what a bell was, how to make one, or what they we even really for. But, when they heard it, the eventually figured out that it was lunchtime. While this type of conditioning seems a bit cruel, it's no different than how we learn to act the way we do. (say the alphabet to yourself) Did you sing?

For those dead-set against audio, or aural communication, consider this:
I don't speak skunk, but I know by that dreadfull smell that it wants "X" amount of distance between itself and me. If I move away, the message has been delivered, and the skunk can relax. If I advance, it will again emit its warning, and again and again until I either finally understand what it wants, or it realizes that I don't care what it has to "say", and I am movin' in.

Sorry if this seems a bit disconnected. I've been piecing it together all day. Oooh, it's 5:00 (CST) It's quittin' time! Another productive day at the office.

tiderider

Nereid
2005-Apr-07, 10:35 PM
Although frequency ranges may vary, nearly every creature on Earth can "hear" the way we do. There are of course exceptions, such as squid, worms, snails, and some insects. But, many of them have antennae, organs, or other bady parts that are sensitive to vibration. With that, "You are not alone!" seems to be relatively easy to convey.
Projection! Most Earthly species communicate chemically ('smell', or 'taste') - most species on Earth are bacteria! Other than the hubris of Homo sap., what basis do you have for projecting your views onto ETs?

Oh, and BTW, the real revolution (evolutionly speaking, for eukaryotes) was 'sight', not 'sound'.

I mention this first to show that if there is sound on a planet(and I don't know how there couldn't be), the life there will have the ability to hear and make it. And, because I must believe that any planet we go to will surely have some Earthlike characteristics or we wouldn't, or possibly couldn't be there in the first place.
Projection! projection!! projection!!!

I respectfully submit that you haven't the faintest idea of where 23rd century Homo sap. will be able 'to go', let alone any post-Homo sap. 223rd century such critters! By reversing the logic, you CANNOT POSSIBLY deduce anything sensible about the communication media of entities that may have evolved for 50k generations beyond the approx equivalent of 21st century Homo sap. on 'the third rock from the Sun'.

That said, we would be able to make our "sound" for something ;a rock, liquid, cold, heat, sun, moon, etc. Provided there was no aggression, and an equal desire to communicate, a few exchanges of "show me yours and I'll show you mine", and the basis for common ground would be formed.
PROJECTION^N^N!!! Even here on Earth, how can you 'translate' "no aggression" into 'bacteria-speak'?

Before this is attempted though, we will first want to establish the "actual" intelligence of the being. Without learning that first, we could spend decades trying to communicate with the equivalent of a tree frog. Alternatively, too intelligent, and we might regret stopping by at all. (Can you say telekinetic molecular separation?)
RAMPANT SPECULATION! without any way to ground the speculation in 'observational ground-truths'. For example, suppose we develop the ability to choose to 'download' into a non-carbon-based existence, say in the 23rd century. Suppose we have by then instantiated into robust software the 'proof witness' and 'proof generation' capabilities that Russell (and Hilbert?) possibly glimpsed ~80 years ago (and which are now within ~50 years of being realised), don't you think that this might have a profound impact on science? on our ability to 'objectively' deconstruct 'intelligence'?

Observation and repetition are the keys to absorbing a new language, skill, or even idea. Pavlov's dogs didn't know what a bell was, how to make one, or what they we even really for. But, when they heard it, the eventually figured out that it was lunchtime. While this type of conditioning seems a bit cruel, it's no different than how we learn to act the way we do. (say the alphabet to yourself) Did you sing?
Try re-casting your statements in terms of the 'minds' of 24th century Homo sap., and then of 12345th century downloaded Homo sap. descendants - do they still make any kind of sense at all?

aeolus
2005-Apr-07, 11:46 PM
Nereid, you spoke my mind...

We should remember that most species on the planet don't communicate, they rely on chemical sensation of their environment.

But just cause they don't interpret their surroundings according to electromagnetic or mechanical waves doesn't mean they can't interact, and be social species at that.

If we do find little green men, though, I hope they do see and hear. I'd like to show them my website; although I'm quite proficient in HTML, I haven't yet made a chemical version of it yet.

mikelyons
2005-Apr-08, 12:01 AM
Why don't we look at communication as it exists on earth? Humans communicate verbally (using the larynx), by gesture with hands (such as signing for the deaf), by facial expression (smiles, frowns, tears, blushes), by posture (aggression, submission, nods or shakes of the head). Some languages include clicks (Zulu, Bushman etc), tones (Oriental etc) and throat contractions (Arabic, Teutonic etc). If that isn't enough, consider how little communication we have with other species on earth, and the wide variety of communications that they use - high frequency and ultrasonic sounds (whales, dolphins etc), colour changes (cuttlefish), odours (mammals, insects). Assuming we could master all of this, it's one thing to learn a language but another thing to have something to say....................

tiderider
2005-Apr-08, 03:36 PM
Is the round over yet? That was quite a beating.

Forgive me for not specifying my term "creature". But I must ask; What questions do you have for bacteria? What galactic travel tips do you hope to gain?
Clearly, I am not proposing that we attempt to communicate with every living thing. My point, which I believed this thread to be more geared to, is how we would break down the communication barrier between our and an alien CIVILIZATION. I do not claim to be a biologist, and I do not care for a semantic debate over what I consider to be intelligent life.

I am very confused about how you can refer to my perspective as "projection", when you state, "you haven't the faintest idea of where the 23rd century Homo sap. will be able to go..." To propose that I had the faintest idea would be projection. I am speaking, and theoretically for that matter, as a human in the 21st century. If, as you say, I "CANNOT POSSIBLY" mentally grasp communication methods thousands of years in the future, you are absolutely correct. But, I believe my point carries that I, as a 21st century man, would be able to figure out how to communicate, on some level, with a 223rd century Homo X.(which would be quite alien. No?)

Additionally, just because we may choose, in the future, to alter our existence (which I have no problem theorizing), it doesn't mean that we will automatically eliminate humanism from the program. If humans continue current trends (all we have to base on) we will still maintain the desire to understand and explore. And, if we do happen upon another civilization out there, I personally don't think our goal will be to amaze or confuse them right off the bat with the absolute apex of our knowledge. If, as I hope, "our" motives are not hostile, wouldn't it be better to start with Mother Goose than technical schematics for a solar harness? (this is figurative writing. I do not offer a universal appreciation for rhyme)

I see no point of speculating on this type of topic if one can't at least imagine a best case scenario?


Ding Ding Ding

tiderider
2005-Apr-08, 07:15 PM
On a side note: Dissection is easy. Creation takes a bit more effort.

jhwegener
2005-Apr-09, 12:07 PM
I think those of you that believe "intelligent" beings can have any form, and use any form of communication have a "weak" position for the following reason:
A zillion other species on earth use and have used other forms of communication than speech. Still we are theonly one accepted to the "intelligent club". You may call that a very narrow minded point of view, "antropocentric"(of course I am, like every human I know of!) or other "bad" things. But then you will miss the point.Anyone hypothesing about other intelligent forms of being has to give some examples here from earth. We have those wast numbers of other organisms, so give an xample, please, of those. Or agree: We are the only one from here, in all of earths history, as far as we know. That at least is one example that if you will have "intelligent" beings they might be rare. It might allso very well be, that there is not much choice regarding "design", language and so on.(So threadstarter could be right!) Regarding future vast changes of design I would give you back in the same coin: All speculations of wildly alternative ways is exactly that:Speculations.
No one know that there will be wild "improvements in our design, intelligence, communication or for that sake that technological or even human society will continue. (And please note: You might still argue that humans are not likeable, or you prefer other organisms. I do not express other opinion than we are special. For better or worse.)

JimAA2QA
2005-Apr-09, 05:55 PM
Personally, I doubt that advanced civilizations would want anything to do with us. It is even doubtful we will still be around a few centuries from now. With atomic weapons in the hands of many nations and Bush leading one of them ...

I have severe concerns.

No, I doubt an advanced civilization would want anything to do with us and I doubt we have the means to detect them. Radio and television are likely short-lived in a civilizations history and unless both antennas are pointed at each other at the same relative time (well, you have to allow for the travel of electromagnetic radiation, but the sending antenna will have to send energy in the direction of where the receiving antenna will be when the receiving antenna is looking for a signal). So, this leaves us with the possibility of someone wanting to contact us. Why would they be so stupid?

:P



Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim

Nereid
2005-Apr-11, 05:26 AM
Forgive me for not specifying my term "creature". But I must ask; What questions do you have for bacteria?IF the forms of 'life' which, in fact, turn out to be the most common are to Homo sap. as Homo sap. is to bacteria, it's a valid question.

IF we aren't to narrow our question(s) to one(s) that are relevant (and valid?) only for ONE species of carbon-based life, on ONE small planet, around ONE star, in ONE galaxy (and, further, such questions have a 'lifetime' of perhaps only a century or two), in what sense can it be said that trying to consider the question more broadly is pointless?

What galactic travel tips do you hope to gain?Moi? None whatsoever ... I'm simply trying to get this discussion back to a basis that even remotely acknowledges the scientific method (which is, after all, the fundamental reason why we are able to have even this discussion, among ourselves).

My point, which I believed this thread to be more geared to, is how we would break down the communication barrier between our and an alien CIVILIZATION.
So let's take this from a historical perspective, shall we?

IF some CIVILIZATION not unlike any of those which we early 21st century Homo sap.'s acknowledge as being a 'civilization' had attempted to communicate with ANY such Earth Homo sap. civilization but that in the last century (or so), what would have been their experience? For example, how would the Egyptian civilization of Tutankhamen have responded to a TV signal? a set of strong radio pulses, based on prime numbers? laser pulses in the spectral window that our atmosphere is transparent to (like the optical SETI (http://www.coseti.org/)searches)? What would the Maya have made of such communication attempts? Or, to take a leaf out of the book of 'thinkers' as 'long ago' as a century or two, changing the face of their home world, so that there were distinctive shapes ('letter's) spelt out by vegetation?

To even ask the questions is to illustrate the absurdity! And this is for a timeperiod in the life of the species Homo sap. that is trivial, in terms of its own existence as a species, let alone as 'life'! How would any of us propose 'communicating' with a 'civilization' like that of Harappa (http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html)? And if we say 'but we couldn't; we need to consider more '20th/21st century' civilizations', then why do we assume that a 'civilization' equivalent to that of 48th century Homo sap. (whatever that might be) could answer in any other way?

Additionally, just because we may choose, in the future, to alter our existence (which I have no problem theorizing), it doesn't mean that we will automatically eliminate humanism from the program. If humans continue current trends (all we have to base on) we will still maintain the desire to understand and explore.
Indeed.

However, did I not read a poster to this thread write "What questions do you have for bacteria?" ;)

I see no point of speculating on this type of topic if one can't at least imagine a best case scenario?
And I can see no point in speculating on this type of topic if we can't at least somehow factor in what we already know, both biologically and historically.

suntrack2
2005-Apr-11, 11:43 AM
nerid as you are thinking about the civilisation and the ancient history, as we all know the older civilisations of the earth out of which the maximum portion of that civilisation is yet to touch, even the people from world are still having miracle and question about the egiptian civilisation, there were number of civilisations of which still people don't know yet the details that technology they used, the language they used,

may be their language is more complicated than of todays? now the question fall in the minds of the people that if they found certain outer life or we can say extra terestrial life on any other planet, how we can able to converse with them? how we can reply to them,

can we read their frequencies, may they can used more advance versions and so on, those versions we have not possibly heard about that, those sounds, the noise, the reply we never heard before, the SETI found some signals previously, we are still in a confusion of what they are going to say, we are still in some different doubts that really what they are doing,what they are eating,

what they are speaking, here is the question that what will be their language, it means not ditto match with us what we are speaking today, or what the world speaking today, we have to drop some light on that point through the different perspective, and how ? this is also a question.

sunil

Nereid
2005-Apr-11, 12:25 PM
I think those of you that believe "intelligent" beings can have any form, and use any form of communication have a "weak" position for the following reason:
A zillion other species on earth use and have used other forms of communication than speech. Still we are theonly one accepted to the "intelligent club". You may call that a very narrow minded point of view, "antropocentric"(of course I am, like every human I know of!) or other "bad" things. But then you will miss the point.Anyone hypothesing about other intelligent forms of being has to give some examples here from earth.
A good start, because it at least opens the possibility of trying to figure out how 'the intelligent ones' actually do communicate.

Recorded history gives us a limited set of examples; anthropology and archaeology some more ... with some confidence we could have some limited answers to questions about how &#39;the intelligent ones&#39; communicated, here on Earth, over the past ~3000 to 5000 years, and may be able to stretch that back to maybe 10,000 or 40,000 years (with considerably less confidence). But this is a mere 1% to (maybe) 4% of the lifetime (so far) of Homo sap., and 0.1% or less of that of the primates (not to mention <0.01% of that of Animalia, and <0.001% of life of Earth). However &#39;the tape of life&#39; is run elsewhere in the universe, does any UT reader suppose that other &#39;intelligent ones&#39; will be attempting to communicate with us just in the ~3,000 to 40,000 year window for which we think we have some vague idea of how we, &#39;the intelligent ones&#39; here on Earth communicated?

Suppose some amazing cosmic coincidence, and that it is this narrow window; what do we learn by looking at how &#39;the intelligent ones&#39; here on Earth communicated? Hmm, slaughter, mayhem, grand larceny, enslavement, rape, oh and if distances were too great or &#39;the balance of (perceived) power&#39; approximately equal, some trade got going.

wstevenbrown
2005-Apr-11, 12:49 PM
Even here on Earth, how can you &#39;translate&#39; "no aggression" into &#39;bacteria-speak&#39;?

I know you intended this as a rhetorical device, but it started me thinking about the literal question: how do bacteria communicate among themselves?

Many bacteria communicate by the exchange of plasmids, circular pieces of DNA which encode the production of altered genetic material, processes for making new proteins, instructions to display certain antibodies.

With regard to your particular question: The E. coli which inhabit our gut are different from the E. coli which inhabit our skin, and both are different from the E. coli which inhabits the skin and guts of other mammals. How? By the exchange of a plasmid which says: recognize this phenotype as host, and no other. When the opposite message is conveyed, E. coli becomes a necrotizing monster, eating its own home. Both are plasmid messages.

Also within our bodies T cells patrol the blood and lymph systems looking for foreign organisms-- I&#39;m not projecting here, that is literally what they do, based on behavior. A T cell which has become sensitized to foreign bodies migrates to the t cell production site and instructs the creation of more T cells specific to that invader. How? Exchange of plasmids.

Lamarck and Lysenko were right, in a limited way: acquired characteristics are inherited by subsequent generations. We in the macro world call it communication, learning, memory and teaching. They do have their &#39;chemical&#39; analogues, and we are learning to interpret them.

Outside our bodies, bacteria engage in a communal behavior called placque formation. Several species unite to form a communal entity which has specialized organs (the different species) for reproduction, food acquisition, digestion, distribution, defense, etc. Why do they not eat each other up? You guessed it-- they&#39;re communicating&#33;

We are just now becoming smart enough to figure out how smart bacteria are. :o :P Best regards-- Steve

PS: As regards the rhetorical intent of your question, I don&#39;t yet speak the language with fluency.

jhwegener
2005-Apr-11, 05:23 PM
I must comment some of what is said (Nerid): As far as I know of (I read articles from time to time, Scientific American, New Scientist and some others and on on internet), our species "HOMO Sapiens" is not that old (100.000 to 200.000 years). So "History"or Civilisation has been here for longer time compared to that than you seems to imply (?). But of course new finds may change both timescales. ("civ" ind some form may be older, like species may be both older or newer.) I think it is ok to say there is one example of intelligent life we know of, and not specify.
One may suspect that humans development to "civilisation" was not at all a direct function of "inner development plus a given quantity of time", but dependent on changes in environment, especially end of iceage.
About communication with "earlier civilisations": Yes, evidence tell us that should be not so hard, given that explorers found people of all sorts, city inhabitants, agriculuralists and gathers hunters. And usually there has been some form of communication, perhaps limited more by lack of interest or hostility, than anything.
An interesting(?) sidestep:One should be carefull to judge wether who are most "intelligent" us or people form earlier times or different cultures. There may be differences, but you may wonder if the environment really is more stimulating in what is often called "advanced" (or perhaps better "complex") societies.I can easily nimagine factors making peoples intellectal abilities rather more limited as well as the opposite. (Or to speak frankly:A road to a dumber future&#33;)

tiderider
2005-Apr-11, 09:40 PM
"Let the good times roll..."

My friend Nereid, While I don&#39;t necessarily agree with everything you propose,(what would be the fun if I did), the more I read, the more I realize that we are knocking on different sides of the same door. I have been speaking from the position that, oh say, in 100 years or so, either we had actually landed on a planet with a civilization (I know, I know), or had been visited ourselves by a space-faring neighbor. Then, with no overt violence shown, we, or our ambassadors, being face to "face" would attempt to understand eachother.

My train of thought had the luxury of already being past any issues with signal encryption, the woefully miniscule odds of successful radio transmission, or for that matter, interstellar travel complications. My only concern was breaking the communication barrier once we were together. Nothing less than a multi-specie Rosetta Stone.

With regards to ancient and future humans, I am forced to think that a man from 5,000 years ago, and a man born 5,000 years from now would be able to "point" at the sun and say "Ra" and "type 73664, and display it on a holographic data stream", and the first step toward understanding would be underway. Remember, we don&#39;t want to be all alone. We like identifying with others-politicians excluded ;-)

Also, I have a hard time equating discovery with intelligence. So I prefer not to think of ourselves as more intelligent than our ancestors, or less intelligent than our decendants. The hunter-gatherering, monolith-erecting people of our past needed to know about plastics as much as they needed to learn about nuclear fallout(very little)- about as much as we, today, need to know "the bouyancy of citrus" on a moon of GACT 76.

When we have remote controls for remote controls, what have we accomplished?

If we, as a whole, can take credit for the positive "advancements", we must collectively accept the negative outcomes of our mad,mad,mad,mad world.

Darn, time to fight rush hour traffic. Later.

R.I.P. Mitch Hedberg

suntrack2
2005-Apr-12, 04:31 PM
really, nerid, aeolous,tiderider,jhwegner,wstebrown,jamesrhampton , are decepting the clues and possibilities very intelligently, thanks brothers,
you know when people looks movie in different language then they relent on only the movements and expressions of the actor and actresses and the location in the movie, they don&#39;t know what dilogues are speaking there in the movie but they just draw the gist of the movie, if the same formula we keep in against of aliens then we will find their meanings, but if they don&#39;t have rapid actions, if they do not have expression then it would be difficult to read the body language of aliens.

suntrack2
2005-Apr-13, 04:31 PM
some questions in mind that are related with language, how the very first language form on the earth? how the certain language i.e. english,french,german are form? who started to speak first in this world? only two people started in each language at the time language birth on this earth? it means there were only two people are came on earth at the very first inception of life? then tried to speak on? are few days,month,years they were mum?

then they started to give names to all things, they were busy in only naming the substances and other life available? have they ever heard of other world beyond the earth at that time? or they don&#39;t have a sense to think on this? they were purely wild at the very first stage? then they started the custom,castes,creeds,habits,behaviour? then they improve their language when the crowd gather on?

then the question also come that if a planet name &#39;x&#39; having a life forms at the very initial stage may in the form of very small size then they will think act and behave with the help of rays falling on them? are the rays of the outer world fall some effect on such lifes? they whispers? they can make a loud? all are our brains pre occupations that there is life? if life found what can we do at the very first time when the life is not supporting us to react?

to show the interest of our demand that we are helping them? can we only make some majic signs infront of them? or we will just speak the silent language like no speaking but speaking with our hands expressions (people just use to speak with deaf & dumb)? or we will draw paintaings or sketching for their assumptions?

suntrack2
2005-May-11, 12:30 PM
as we speak in english language : How are you?
alien may be speak the same with using inverse word like : woh era uoy?

what do you think?

uni dude 2005
2005-May-16, 01:59 PM
i&#39;m sticking to one of einstiens theory&#39;s i forget which one all "aliens" will look beyond are imagination same to go with there language.

suntrack2
2005-May-30, 08:47 AM
that&#39;s fine dude, what you have decided, but let me know the script of your conversation with the alien.

nomadicdemon
2005-May-31, 04:15 PM
Wow, I am so confused&#33;&#33; but hey, if I were to meet an alien, I would try and communicate at any means possible

suntrack2
2005-Jun-02, 07:13 AM
mulet we are in the semi final round to search the extra terestrials, may be our total search is half of the total search, yet the destination has to come, we are so hopeful, to meet the aliens, you know we have to prepare in all respect to respond them, we are just doing our wings up and down on the earth, we really don&#39;t know what life is there in the universe, what type of people are there, where they are or not we don&#39;t know, atleast we have to keep hopes. this is a possible discussion about if they found? then which language we have to use for them?

dragonmaster_us@hotmail.com
2005-Jun-16, 09:19 PM
Alien life-form speach will not be any more comprehensible that dolphin or dog speach is to us today. If you want to learn about an alien understanding of the universe, ask your dog.

Oh&#33; You can&#39;t speak with him? How do you expect to speak with something even more alien?

RobWolfe
2005-Jun-21, 09:12 PM
Regardless of their language, if they are intelligent, they will have math. Maybe not base 10 math but math is math. You can do calculations and come up with the same answers if you use base 10, base 16 or base two or whatever else you want. Languages may change but math will be universal.

suntrack2
2005-Jun-23, 11:20 AM
interesting Robwolfe

dragonmaster_us@hotmail.com
2005-Jun-28, 08:01 PM
Sorry&#33; I gotta say it.

A dolphin may be more intelligent than any human. It lives in an environment that precludes fire, but enriches social skills. What use math, then. There has to be a need to develop anything. Tools are used by some dolphins (recent report of nose gear.)

suntrack2
2005-Jul-06, 09:55 AM
dolphins cannot speaks but they speaks the language of husssssh and whistle like language, may be dolphins are understanding the language of human movements infront of it and not language of a human, may be the high frequency censors like system within the brain of the dolphin help to understand him and then dolphin responds.


2. example: if we found a spacie called "alien" on earth( which for a time sake fall on earth from their vehicle) and started to proceed towards me, if i am asking to the alien "how are you" and nice to meet you, the alien will only atleast can look to me, and will reply in attacking on me, because that alien is having nautia of sound, if any sound occurs that alien will respond in beating the human being, hence our language will not be capable to handle the talks with the alien. 3. alien will start a war with his ammunition if i am saying the alien loudly "Hi". 4. if i am saying nothing that alien may be say nothing or will not create any noise from his side. 5. that alien cannot wears the hearing impaired&#39;s instrument to hear me. 5. may be that alien will walk towards me and will only take voice recording of me and flown away.

astromark
2005-Jul-06, 11:13 AM
Earlyer in this thread it was noted that Dolphins may be more intelagent than we think, and on a leval obove ours. This just might be so. Its all in your perception of what intelagence is. If you think that our technoledgy based electrical wizardree is the measure then we the human race seem to have mastered that, or have we? There are examples of other creatures using electrical charges to stun thier prey. those Octopusess fabuliouse colour changes are electricly driven.
As for the question of langage. It is just as likely that we may never find another place in all of the galaxy where air breathing mamals vibrate vocal chords and distort there mouth to make noisess that are recieved by sensative ears and enterpreted as speach.
Had any one of the mass extinction avents of this Earths past not happened, What would have happened here?. . . What might have evolved under slightly diferent sercomestancess. Here. Never mind speckulating on what we might find. Lets just keep looking and worry about how to comunicate when we need to. Or should we stay hidden in fear of becomming lunch to some alien spieciese. and get my spelling sorted a. . . mark.

suntrack2
2005-Jul-09, 04:54 PM
that&#39;s fine astromark for the electric language of a sense through the electric currents to understand

WitheringIntuition
2005-Jul-10, 08:37 AM
I don&#39;t wanna sound like a know-it-all here, nor do I want to sound mean. ;)

First off, if we ever do make contact with an alien, the remote chance that it is through a human inventioin (radio waves etc.) is unbelievably far-fetched to me. Also, these are aliens. They will be so different looking to us, we wouldn&#39;t know what it is, ya know? We have no clue what they look like, and for all we know, there could be life on Mars as we speak. Colinizations of aliens everywhere. That&#39;s a real possibility. We&#39;ve got to look at what we already know and the inventions we have. For instance, we didn&#39;t know black holes existed until what, 200 years ago perhaps? What I&#39;m trying to say is, aliens could be living in a world that we don&#39;t see, because we don&#39;t have anything to view it with. We couldn&#39;t see our bones inside our body until the x-ray was invented. So we may not be able to see aliens right now, because we don&#39;t have anything to view them with. Also, it&#39;s so unfimiliar that perhaps alien civilizations are living microscopically and we can&#39;t see them just yet. Infinite possiblilities here. But I&#39;ll get back to the point of this thread.

If we make contact with aliens, in my opinion they would probably not use a language. They would use something that only they can sense. So, we&#39;d be forced to use mathematics as the interplanetary language. A guy earlier in this thread posted a good description of the mathematics language, with the " **+***=*****" thing. It reminded me of Contact (if anyone&#39;s seen that movie, it&#39;s great). It&#39;s a very good depiction of what would happen if we recieved or made contact.

What I&#39;m saying is that, I don&#39;t think we&#39;d be able to communicate with Aliens other than mathemical languages.

I&#39;m sorry to make you all read this when I realize it has no point.

I&#39;m out ;)

suntrack2
2005-Jul-10, 03:42 PM
thank you witheringintuition for your reply here, you have quoted a mathematical language is most possible to converse or interact with the aliens, that&#39;s well, but we are quite acquainted with the equations and a=b=c and squres and cubes of the numbers, but if they started in their mathematical language, if they are saying "welcome witheringintuition in our city" in their mathematics viz:- /.0^|_()>=*/%-)(=<^..^, then what can we understand that they are saying "welcome witheringintuition" in their mathematical language. ? this is a big question.

well what you have presume that&#39;s remarkable, that only the mathematical equations and numbers can solve the interaction and language problem of the alien.
and if they are saying only "Hi" :- in their mathematical language, viz. .. ^>^. rest to power &#092;.&#092;% x 00000.I.0<< we have to solve this equation first, and of their signs we could not be able to understand, what&#39;s your solution on this?

Sixbender
2005-Jul-14, 07:57 PM
Earlyer in this thread it was noted that Dolphins may be more intelagent than we think, and on a leval obove ours.

This whole thread, way back in the day, started with the question of "could we communicate with aliens".
While there are a boatload of well written and thoughtful replies, I&#39;m still skeptical that we could communicate with them. Maybe the other way around, if aliens were so motivated.

The Dolphin, who evolved right here on Earth along side of us, has more in common with our biology that any alien species would. They have a larger and more convoluted brain than us. They have more effective natural communication than we do. They have a language. Though the stuff of legend in eons past, a recent news story from down under of a group of Dolphin herding three humans into a circle just before a large shark passes within 3m reminds us that they function cooperatively and with intention that hints of a plan. Besides their ability to "ultrasound" you in the water, What else are they going to do with the big brain?
We remain dumbfounded.
We only now recognize the mental capacity of primates and parots because we taught them to communicate in a language we can understand, not because we can understand their natural language.
Anyway, whatever the dolphins mental capacity, they&#39;re in our backyard. If we can learn to communicate with Dolphin (other than trying to make them speak human language, or using "tricks" that we design to evaluate mental capacity), then I might join the camp that believes we could talk to aliens. Until then, I&#39;ll remain a skeptic in the area of our ability, our intellegence, in communicating with other species.

suntrack2
2005-Jul-17, 11:58 AM
thanks 6bender for your reply,
if the dolphins can "ultrasound" we to understand, then if we keep a close equipment to their hearing system then what kind of result will come out. as we keep the ear phone to better understand. we also must cautious to take care to maintain the distance from the dolphins to get them better hearing. your angle is quite right in looking towards this kind of study and discussion.

thanks once again for your reply, what are the other determinant factors to find out to resolve this probelm of the issue of alien, do you have any more, then state.

sunil

suntrack2
2005-Jul-25, 02:17 PM
just imagine: if alien found then the mirror can be keep in front of the alien so that the original alien will see the image in the mirror, then i will just on the sensitive tape recorder to record the voice of the alien, then i will watch out the movements of the alien both of the original and in the mirror itself, what reactions will recieve i will note it, they only whispers or just looks only the steady eye, their expressions thereon and then we can proceed further.

suntrack2
2005-Sep-17, 05:04 PM
i think we are alone in this universe, it is just finding difficult of the life at the different destinations till today, language is just a secondary part? whenever the life will find then only this question comes otherwise this is has to keep in the box till the life found on the different planet? what do you think?

suntrack2
2005-Oct-17, 04:44 PM
people on earth getting difficulties to speak the different languages from the different countries, for a while they study the different languages, later they forgets, and in aliens case we can not keep our mouth just shut in front of a alien if he is speaking the aliens language, so how the task can be perform to speak with them, if they found.

solice
2005-Oct-19, 02:49 PM
i think we are alone in this universe, it is just finding difficult of the life at the different destinations till today, language is just a secondary part? whenever the life will find then only this question comes otherwise this is has to keep in the box till the life found on the different planet? what do you think?

I think you should stop bumping your thread upwards! And why would you wanna begin a discussion about languages if it's only just the second part after we discover life and you even think we're alone ?!

stop bumping plz

suntrack2
2005-Oct-21, 03:45 PM
no solice i won't like to bump the thread upwards nor my intention is like that, it is just a discussion, not binding to express the views which i like or dislike. do you have any sort of ideas in respect of this thread then please proceed, we are not finding the life in the universe anywhere elese beyond earth that's our failure.

Faultline
2005-Oct-21, 10:27 PM
I know for a fact that they speak with the little deedlybops on their heads.

Prove me wrong!