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jhwegener
2005-Feb-21, 03:24 PM
Climate change and global warming is in the media, probably damaging and human caused. This is the reason for the following question: Could we do a bit manipulation, and perhaps change something for the better, at least locally, simply by using different "collors"? As far as I know, those parts of the earth, covered by snow(here in winter), reflects much more of incoming solar energy than those without. In itself a "cooling factor". Would it matter, at least locally in "over-heated" areas, if people there consequently used bright collors? In urban and densely settled districts a signifiocant proportion of land is covered by artificial structures, like buildings, roads, etcetera. In rural areas you may add cultivated or in other ways "manipulated" lands(t.ex. planted forrests). Would such a "bright view" possibly be of any substantal help?

piersdad
2005-Feb-21, 05:32 PM
very easy
just make solar heaters that turn water into steam and use the steam to make electricity
instead of reflecting it the heat will remain in the earth and dissapate as heat from electrical appliances.

a power plant in the gobi desert with a supply of sea water could make electricity from solar power, use the power to electrolise water to hydrogen, and then use the hydrogen elseware to power cars
as well it could desalinate some of the water for local use

with the right politics the worlds deserts could all be re claimed and made productive and the co 2 in the air reduced as well.

the solutions are there the politics are not

bossman20081
2005-Feb-21, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by piersdad@Feb 21 2005, 02:02 PM
very easy
just make solar heaters that turn water into steam and use the steam to make electricity
instead of reflecting it the heat will remain in the earth and dissapate as heat from electrical appliances.

a power plant in the gobi desert with a supply of sea water could make electricity from solar power, use the power to electrolise water to hydrogen, and then use the hydrogen elseware to power cars
as well it could desalinate some of the water for local use

with the right politics the worlds deserts could all be re claimed and made productive and the co 2 in the air reduced as well.

the solutions are there the politics are not
You do realise that to have any major impact on the atmosphere, this would take hundreds of years? Changing the earth's atmosphere isn't something you could do overnight. Don't even get me started on the cost of such an endeavour....

Shoemoodoshaloo
2005-Feb-22, 02:54 AM
I don't wanna turn this into a political debate, but I think if companies shifted influence from manufacturing oil to solar power and such, it would be feasible. I mean, yes it is an expensive endeavour, but so is drilling.

Ola D.
2005-Feb-23, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by jhwegener@Feb 21 2005, 03:24 PM
Could we do a bit manipulation, and perhaps change something for the better, at least locally, simply by using different "collors"?
Firstly, welcome to the forum jhwegener.

To answer your question, I would say stop using pollutants and have more legistlations. Not as easy as it sound though.

Since late 1970's, the CFC's (chlorofluorocarbons) chemicals have been banned from use. CFC's are responsible for the depletion of the ozone layer. Though it has been banned, some concentrations still sustain in the upper layers until this time. The resynthesis of the ozone layer will take a lot of time and generally any climate change happens gradually and slowly, whether it was negative or positive.

dgruss23
2005-Feb-24, 03:33 AM
Unfortunately, global warming is a case of repeating an idea so many times that people come to believe it even though the scientific evidence backing the theory is virtually non-existant.

Bobunf
2005-Feb-24, 05:22 AM
“Unfortunately, global warming is a case of repeating an idea so many times that people come to believe it even though the scientific evidence backing the theory is virtually non-existant [sic].”

Well, I think the case that global warming is occurring is an arguable one with considerable evidence to support it. Nothing conclusive, but enough to warrant “further study.” As always with science. After all, these guys don't get more grants if they say, “That wraps it up. Nothing more to be learned about this subject.”

On the other hand, we should be grateful that the universe is so vast and complex that we’re not likely to run out of new things to learn anytime soon, if ever.

What’s lacking in the global warming debate, even more than evidence, is logic. It amazes me the extent to which people just don’t think things through.

For instance, after “global warming is occurring” there is always the assumption that this is a bad thing. Usually taken completely on faith, but sometimes backed up with ridiculous fantasies of disaster and horror—even on this forum—and ignoring the fact that the Earth has been warmer than it is today for most of geologic time. The most humorous disaster scenario is that global warming will produce an ice age.

The consequences of global warming are even more murky than the question of the existence of global warming. An honest appraisal would run something like, “We have some speculations.”

Another instance of goofy logic is the obsession with demonstrating that global warming occurs because of human activity. What difference does it make? If global warming is occurring, and if it’s a bad thing, and if we can do something about it, shouldn’t we do that thing even if the fault lies not in ourselves, but in our misbehaving star? Or a change in the interstellar medium through which the solar system travels? Or variations in the orbit of the Earth? Or some other thing?

A third logical contortion has to do with proposed solutions, which involve either something approaching a return to the Pleistocene, or the acceptance by the great unwashed of the brilliant insights of some expert group. “Just follow my formula; it really will help you.” I can almost hear the trailing “have faith.” Always human reformation, and always lacking a critical analysis of costs, resource use, consequences and alternatives.

It really feels like the tenets of a religious faith:

I believe in Global Warming
I believe evil is the cause, human evil: greed, selfishness, carelessness, gluttony, sloth and overweening pride.
I believe in redemption by _____________ (fill in the blank).


Yuck!

Bob

eburacum45
2005-Feb-24, 01:14 PM
Yes; it would be possible to alter, adjust, direct the Earth's atmospheric system;
yes, it will be difficult and expensive.
There are so many negative and positive feedback cycles in the atmosphere and upper lithosphere that this atmosphere management will be very challenging.
We could abandon the idea of management altogether, and allow the Earth to find it's own balance; this new balance will not be too damaging to the biosphere at large, as similar cycles of adjustment have occured many times over the geological ages of tha Earth.
Particularly dramatic changes have occured in the transition periods between glacials and interglacials in the Quaternary; the Earth has certainly not become uninhabuitable in this period.

So should we just let the Earth heal itself? I would suggest that we should attempt some sort of adjustment, particularly by decreasing carbon dioxide emissions. Once we understand the mechanisms involved more thoroughly we will be able to maintain the biosphere for an indefinite period, with any luck.

Incidentally collecting solar energy by any method and using it on Earth slightly increases the energy absorbed by the Earth, warming it slightly; this effect is not comparable in scale to the greenhouse effect, but it would become more important if solar power collection were increased vastly in scale to accomodate a high energy ecoonomy.

piersdad
2005-Feb-24, 02:58 PM
Incidentally collecting solar energy by any method and using it on Earth slightly increases the energy absorbed by the Earth, warming it slightly; this effect is not comparable in scale to the greenhouse effect, but it would become more important if solar power collection were increased vastly in scale to accomodate a high energy ecoonomy. looks like a no win situation.

the deserts once created reflect the heat outward.and if we were to trap that heat and convert it then that heat energy would have to be released some how.

the colors idea is not that silly
in a heavy populated area one of the prominant colors is the black of all the roads and the red of roofs.
often the local climate is effected by the mass of a city.
so it may be impracticle to paint all roads white but inventing a paint that is more permanent, cheaper, and reflective for roofs would go some way to helping the warming effect

Bobunf
2005-Feb-26, 03:52 PM
"it may be impracticle [sic] to paint all roads white but inventing a paint that is more permanent, cheaper, and reflective for roofs would go some way to helping the warming effect"

Some way? How about quantifying that a bit? What percentage of the Earth do roofs cover?

I don’t know, but I would guess an average of about 200 square meters of roof per person including dwelling, employment, shopping, storing, government and all other roofs. That would work out to over two tenths of a percent of the Earth’s surface.

If the average roof reflects into space (that is, the radiation is not absorbed on the roof or in the atmosphere on the way up and out) 20% of the insolation;
And a treated roof would reflect into space 70% of the insolation;
This would reduce the Sun’s thermal impact on Earth by more than one tenth of one percent;
Or about three tenths of a degree Centigrade.

If one could impact parking lots, roads and the sides of building to some degree, one could imagine this number easily approaching a half degree Centigrade. Then one might consider planting more reflective grasses along roadsides, for lawns, athletic fields and golf courses—even trees and crops—perhaps reducing the temperature by a full degree.

This seems like an awfully easy, and relatively cheap, solution.

Is there anything wrong with this analysis? Which makes Global warming seem like a petty problem. “Forget Kyoto! Don’t worry about fossil fuels. Just paint your roof every five years."

Great idea, piersdad.

Bob

eburacum45
2005-Feb-26, 06:24 PM
One idea would be to change the reflectivity of the Pacific Ocean; spread billions of floating bouys out in the calmest regions of the tropics, and connect them with white or silver fabric sheets to increase the albedo of the Earth.

This method could could be used to cool the Gulf of Mexico as well- which might help to inhbit the development of hurricanes.

ChromeStar
2005-Feb-27, 04:06 PM
Reply to original:

Hi jhwegener

Well, i think the best way to combat climate change and global warming is to use environmentally friendy devices, products and recycle our waste.

if you want to talk about chlimate change in detail etc see my signature. ;) :D

piersdad
2005-Feb-27, 05:14 PM
Thanks for that analysis Bobunf

if the kyoto agreement went a bit further and included some incentive how ever small to reduce heat adsorbsion what ever way is used there would be incentive to research ways of reducing impact of severe climate events.

we see now bigger and more severe hurricans and heavier rainfall as the oceans get rid of their excess heat in the form of evaporation.


One idea would be to change the reflectivity of the Pacific Ocean; spread billions of floating bouys out in the calmest regions of the tropics, and connect them with white or silver fabric sheets to increase the albedo of the Earth.
usung bouys would devistate shipping as well the collection of marine life on them would change the enviroment
but yes impracticle but possibly a seed of an idea here as may be creating conditions for a natural biological plant-creature that has reflective or heat adsorbing qualities would work.

Bobunf
2005-Mar-02, 06:30 AM
Pierstad, you wrote, “we see now bigger and more severe hurricans [sic] and heavier rainfall as the oceans get rid of their excess heat in the form of evaporation.”

Where does this information come from? Is there any information that rainfall or hurricanes are more plentiful in the most recent 11 years of this Hale cycle, as opposed to the prior 11 years? I don’t think so.

Even if there were some evidence of an increase in precipitation (why not include snow, as well as rain?) or violent weather (why not include typhoons, tornadoes, heavy thunder storms, as well as hurricanes?), what evidence is there that these possible phenomena are due to evaporation from the oceans? I don’t think there is any. What theoretical foundation ties these two phenomena together? I think only incomplete and relatively unsupported hypotheses.

What evidence is there that the oceans have “excess” heat over the last 11 years as opposed to the prior 11 years? I think the evidence is very equivocal.

I actually started analyzing your idea of treating roofs sure that it would have a completely insignificant effect, but my analysis convinced me that view was wrong, and that it may be possible to impact climate by treating roofs. I was surprised.

Bob

piersdad
2005-Mar-02, 07:52 AM
thanks for that bobunf
most of my info is from the press and it seems the floods and other disasters are geting worse but could be they are just another cycle
if you live in the southern hemisphere you see more media reports about severe weather here than say in a more stable continental climate where little ocean influence is seen just very hot of cold weather.
we seem to be getting 100 year peak floods more often.

what ever is happening we will have a fair bit of time to get used to any change of climate with any increasing disasters being treated as they come and steps taken to minimise the next one.


some of the flooding is man made due to chopping down forests and the lack of ground cover and as well the walling up of river banks with stop banks and shifting the flood some where else where it causes greater damage down stream.

Nereid
2005-Mar-15, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by jhwegener@Feb 21 2005, 03:24 PM
Climate change and global warming is in the media, probably damaging and human caused. This is the reason for the following question: Could we do a bit manipulation, and perhaps change something for the better, at least locally, simply by using different "collors"? As far as I know, those parts of the earth, covered by snow(here in winter), reflects much more of incoming solar energy than those without. In itself a "cooling factor". Would it matter, at least locally in "over-heated" areas, if people there consequently used bright collors? In urban and densely settled districts a signifiocant proportion of land is covered by artificial structures, like buildings, roads, etcetera. In rural areas you may add cultivated or in other ways "manipulated" lands(t.ex. planted forrests). Would such a "bright view" possibly be of any substantal help?
Have you heard the word 'albedo'? Basically it's just the proportion of incident solar radiation that is reflected ... and since most of the energy in the incident radiation is in the optical and near infra-red, thinking about this in terms of the brightness of a surface is a good OOM (order of magnitude) first step.

Of course, the albedo of a planet involves the whole surface, so you'd have to employ Christo to 'wrap' the Pacific Ocean in bright yellow plastic to have much effect!

A 'simpler' way would be to create more clouds (they're 'white'), by making more jet contrails perhaps? Alternatively, just freeze the oceans and make a 'snowball Earth'.

Guess what? Nature is busy 'adjusting' the Earth's albedo all the time (and perhaps the last snowball Earth episode triggered a eukaryotic explosion?

piersdad
2005-Apr-10, 11:41 PM
No matter what we do i think the climate will change as a natural cycle and ok we might have to retreat to the high ground but over a large number of years that wont be such a painfull task.
In my city we have specialist firms that do house shifting and in just two days a house that had been sitting on a section for 60 years could be in a sale yard and next week in another site.


so if global warming causes a rise in the sea and a warming of the antartic then we will one day be planting cocnuts in antartica perhaps