PDA

View Full Version : Discussion: Black Holes Could Contain a ...



Fraser
2005-Mar-21, 06:36 PM
SUMMARY: Black holes continue to defy comprehension as some of the most extreme places in the Universe, but could they also contain its most perfect fluids. Researchers at the University of Washington have calculated that the material in a black hole should have an ultra-low viscosity - 400 times less than water. A black hole's temperature should be 2 trillion degrees Celsius; an extreme temperature where matter breaks apart completely into a soup of subatomic particles.

View full article (http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/black_hole_perfect_fluid.html)

What do you think about this story? Post your comments below.

antoniseb
2005-Mar-21, 09:14 PM
So where is this low viscosity fluid? If it is inside the event horizon, we'll never be able to measure it.

Guest
2005-Mar-21, 10:27 PM
see the orginal article ( http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0405231 )
in order to understand that the title "Black Holes Could Contain a Perfect Fluid" does not make sense . According to the theory only the event horizon behaves as a perfect fluid

wstevenbrown
2005-Mar-22, 05:04 AM
A black hole's temperature should be 2 trillion degrees Celsius; an extreme temperature where matter breaks apart completely into a soup of subatomic particles.

A curious use of language. The black-body radiation temperature of a naked singularity is measured in microKelvins. An accretion disc can achieve a few modest billion degrees.

We may need some more specialized language to speak of characteristics which are not observable-- applying Wien's Law (Stefan's?) to such a temperature...anybody within a million light-years without some serious sunblock is gonna have a real bad day. Of course, these ultra-violent radiations are inside the event horizon, where they are too weak to even orbit. :blink: Steve

astromark
2005-Mar-22, 11:12 AM
The 'Black Hole' itself being an area of emmence Pressure, Gravaty,heat. A plazma state, where matter as we understand it can not exist, Where the atoms are crushed. the electrons obliterated. we can only best guess what may actually acure in side that avent horison. we can never know. We can exelerate particals, we can smash them together, and study untill the cows come home. We will never go see. Pure Liquid, Pure energy.?

Mild mannered
2005-Mar-22, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by fraser@Mar 21 2005, 06:36 PM
the material in a black hole should have an ultra-low viscosity - 400 times less than water.
Not to tie this into the Plasma debate but is this like a plasma?

Are we talking super conductivity as well at these extremes?

Perhaps at these levels Gravity cannot exist as we know it - if the "super fluid" is moving about/through itself at humungous speeds with nop resistance maybe there is no real - static - centre of mass for Gravity to get zero in on. It would be a smudged area spread throughout the hole as opposed to a sharp point.

Uncertainty in action? You could give the centre a probability of being in a certain place but never fully define it.

But as Ant says - once inside the hole... we'll probably never know.

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-Mar-22, 02:02 PM
wouldent it make more sence to have all the stuff goin into black holes go into another universe? i mean black holes dont realy contain much just all it sucks in and i think maby it is a worm whole to a difrent universe or dimention or whatever. but it still think that if a black whole has the "perfect fluid" then that would be amaxing. but i still understand where your coming from. the mater and energy that is sucked in is compressed and put to the most basic form it can be made of. which is right now that we kno of subatomic particles. but then again i heard that there is even smaller ones calld "Quarcks" and "Leptons". and just to show how smart i am ill tell you im only in 9th grade :) .

GOURDHEAD
2005-Mar-22, 03:02 PM
Much of the theory (brane fantasy) espoused by the article required much more effort on my part to gain comprehension than I am currently inclined to spend. Since the particles (if any) comprising the "fluid" inside the event horizon exist at the quantum level at the smallest of scales (where electric charge as we normally think of it may have no meaning nor physical interaction [sans friction]), the assumption that the material inside the event horizon has a high probability of being a superfluid is both very plausible and intuitively comfortable. Perhaps the environment inside the hole forces the strings (if any) to assume alignments that produce and maintain minimum friction to flow.

As for the 3 trillion kelvin temperature, does it compare favorably with that determined thermodynamically by stuffing several hundred million solar masses initally at an average temperature of 1 or 2 million degrees into the relatively small volume occupied by the resulting black hole (brane?) while maintaining the pressure inside the hole at the values commensurate with whatever the more widely accepted theories allow?

The article exposed me to the term "black brane" for the first time. From the context I assume this means a black hole within a geometry of greater than three spatial dimensions. Am I close?

flashgordon1952
2005-Mar-22, 03:48 PM
Black hole could be the only way will be able to travel at faster than light speed .the problem is we dont really know much about them . and it may be possible to build a star gateway from a mini black hole in space (ie man made) but that will be far off into the future. Black hole as we know divour whole planets but have no idea what happens to them . My thoery for what it is worth is that the planets end up in a completly different part of the galaxy. and stay there .
I also believe black holes are infact living orgasm s that reproduce themselves. I wonder what others think of my thesis on them. I will be happy to answer your emails on the subject. flashgordon195252@yahoo.co.uk

chris

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-Mar-23, 03:49 AM
:P my asumption of this is that we are in atleast one way corect with all of this that the black whole is inexorable and incomprehesibly amazing, "for the fact it can fit alot of stuff in such a tiny space", compared to the universe. im asuming we all agree. and further more couldent a black whole just be a worm whole leading to a difrent dimention aswell as sucking things in and redisributing the atoms. some what as i think "god" if there is one, did.

uni dude 2005
2005-Apr-05, 02:00 PM
:P good idea mr smartypants gamer guy hat has influenced me to think the same but perhaps when plannets go into a blck whole they keep on moving untill they stop and then move again etc etc but it might just not be plannets i think it would be alot more resonable if asteroids went inot black wholes as ii think that there would be to much mass of a plannet to fit through so it would just be destroyed :P

antoniseb
2005-Apr-05, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Smartypants gamer guy@Mar 23 2005, 03:49 AM
couldent a black whole just be a worm whole leading to a difrent dimention aswell as sucking things in and redisributing the atoms.
If an object falls into a black hole, the black hole's mass increases by the same amount as the mass of the material that entered it. I'm guessing, then, that your wormhole idea assumes that the matter goes somewhere else, but the worm hole somehow retains a memory of the mass that has gone through it?

I'd be curious to read a proposal for a mechanism that allows this.

I think it is simpler to assume that the matter falling into a black hole is stuck there.

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-Apr-13, 03:35 AM
hi its me again im now a member today and yes this all could be posible but if everything would just stay in a black whole couldent it eventualy get so big that it would just like make a gigantic explosion and all of a sudent release all the stuff it suked in and make the univers start to have bubles and make the expantion all odd and stuff???

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-Apr-22, 12:57 PM
well? i mean maby black wholes do keep memory of the mass it takes in. i mean it was a star. maby they are like reverse super nova's. and just get bigger and bigger and when they get to big KABOOM and all the stuff it ate will spew back out and reform stuff

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-May-11, 05:00 PM
k... with all this going on i mean black holes are indeed somthing but what are they exactly i mean all the point detales some peps thinks theres no blk holes instead a dark energy star others think its a giant poket that holds evrything and i think its some sort of worm hole for transporting things and redistributing them aswell... so whats goin on?

antoniseb
2005-May-11, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Smartypants gamer guy@May 11 2005, 05:00 PM
some peps thinks theres no blk holes instead a dark energy star others think its a giant poket that holds evrything and i think its some sort of worm hole for transporting things and redistributing them aswell
Pretty much everyone agrees that there are compact objects so dense that they have gravity so strong as to make it possible for us to test the limits of relativity. From outside a black hole, to the event horizon, we all pretty much agree.

We also agree that we may never know for certain what is inside the event horizon, whether it is some singular point of matter, or some hard shell of matter that can never collapse, or some other strange thing.

For the purposes of science experiements we can do, we know enough for now.

qraal
2005-May-11, 10:04 PM
Hi All

To help your confusion gamer-guy the wormhole is only there in abstract - it gets created in a Schwarzschild collapse. The wormhole only exists for a fraction of a second and collapses faster than light - nothing can pass through.

In nature there's no wormhole - the imploding star's mass ends up in the way. But a Schwarzschild Black-Hole is only possible if the original star isn't spinning - and all stars do spin. So what you get is the Kerr-Newman collapse which squishes the star's mass into a ring, and creates two event horizons. According to some theories a Kerr-Newman Black-Hole might have an open worm-hole, but only so long as nothing tries to fall in. As soon as even a photon approaches the extreme gravity causes it to make the worm-hole unstable and collapses the worm-hole.

But that's only when the Black-Hole is new. In late times the instability settles down and part of the singularity, that makes the worm-hole, becomes stable enough to cross. But according to the new work by Andrew Hamilton there's another instability - called mass inflation - which makes the event horizon unstable and causes it to fill up with highly dense plasma. Really, really nasty stuff.

The other problem is that the other end of the worm-hole is probably inside another black-hole and we all know nothing can escape a black-hole. But according to another study it might be possible to use "phantom energy" to cause a black-hole to become a worm-hole without an event horizon. The phantom energy creates an opposing negative gravity that stops the worm-hole from collapsing into nothingness.

qraal

Mr. Smartypants gamer guy
2005-Jun-03, 11:28 PM
also is this story still realivant i mean wow ther are alot of questions weather or not blk holes crush, squesse, burn, destroy, eat, or just nothingess, WHAT IS GOIN ON! also chek what i said on blk holes incineratin stuff talk, starts of wit tsk tsk tsk, kinda cool actualy