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StarLab
2005-Jul-18, 09:57 PM
Try not to make this a spoiler thread. Please discuss the novel if, like me, you've read it. Didja like it? What parts were the best? The funniest? The worst? What could we expect in the final book?

BTW, a 12-year-old "expert" on HP had a radio interview...I'll post the link here as soon as it is available on the net.


Enjoy the discussion! B)

-StarLab

Polly V
2005-Jul-19, 06:03 AM
try to not spoil eh? Ok I'll do my best.

Funniest:
Harry's sarcasm has definitely improved; I'm rather enjoying that. His comments about not having to call him sir, and its my nickname.

The elf smack-down in the infirmary.

Good to have light moments with everything else going on.

My favorite character turned out to be the HBP, and although it doesn't bode well for him right now I think book 7 with have twists and turns explain what he did at the end.

Is that vague enough? ;)

bossman20081
2005-Jul-20, 01:17 AM
Sure, I'll bite. :)

I expected this book to be excellent, and it did not disappoint; there are some excellent plot twists, great dialogue, and a certain tragedy at the end made it the book show the dynamics of human emotion better then ever.

One thing you have to give JK Rowling credit for is that the characters seem real. They feel pain, they can be mistaken, and most importantly, no one is perfect; you will defintently realize this at the end of this book, if you have missed it from the previous books, of course.

SPOILERS



I was startled that Dumbledore died, though I can't say that I'm completely surprised; I didn't think that Harry would ever be able to fight Voldemort if Dumbledore is always going to protect him.

What about Snape? That was shocking to me, actually. Dumbledore trusted him so much, that I actually believed him (though he did have some extreme animosity towards Harry). I can't wait to see what happens to him.

I think Harry will go to the Dursley's for a night, and then leave for Bill's wedding. After that, it seems like Harry's going to be hunting Voldemort day ad night. I'm not sure if he's not going back to Hogwarts; he said he wasn't, but I'm not too sure about that.



END SPOILERS

Excellent book; I'm not sure if it's the best of the series, but it's up there. The first printing of 10.8 million books doesn't promise to last long;it's already sold 6.9 million, which is broke the record set by the Order of the Pheonix. (Also, it's going to make $150 million, which breaks Halo 2's record of $125 million. It sucks really: we have to wait 2 years for the final book....

Spoilers

Hey Grant, is this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8599597/) the interview you were talking about?

Here's a couple more:

TIME (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8599597/)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4...800/4690885.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/4690885.stm)
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml


And finally, here (http://mugglenet.com/books/hbpreviews/) is a list of reviews of the book, just in case you're wondering if you should read this book.

StarLab
2005-Jul-20, 03:41 AM
Well, since you've spoiled it I will as well:

It was mostly good. However, it was very confusing at times. I thought that Harry's romance with Ginny was too short-lived. I was kinda glad that finally Rowling would have Harry go to Godric's Hollow....at last! The biggest problem with book six was that it was either predictable, or confusing. There was no middle ground. The ending was kinda shocking, because it did not end with Harry going back on the Hogwarts express.


Now, who could R.A.B stand for?

suntrack2
2005-Jul-20, 09:56 AM
which astronomy related book is most popular and more sold like harry-potter series, is there any another rollings in astronomy, can you state the name and name of book?

bossman20081
2005-Jul-20, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jul 20 2005, 12:11 AM
Well, since you've spoiled it I will as well:

It was mostly good. However, it was very confusing at times. I thought that Harry's romance with Ginny was too short-lived. I was kinda glad that finally Rowling would have Harry go to Godric's Hollow....at last! The biggest problem with book six was that it was either predictable, or confusing. There was no middle ground. The ending was kinda shocking, because it did not end with Harry going back on the Hogwarts express.


Now, who could R.A.B stand for?
Well, how can we discuss the best worst, and funniest parts with out spoilers? :huh: And at least I put spoiler warnings in...

I don't know if it matters anymore, but...SPOILERS

I agree about Ginny and Harry, but I can't say I'm surprised; it seemed like the kind of thing he would do. When the heck will Ron and Hermione get together though...

I don't agree with your predicatable or confusing statement; it seemed straightforward enough for me.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the 7 book takes off directly where the 6 stops; I think that she will continue from right after the 6 book.

Polly V
2005-Jul-20, 07:39 PM
I might as well too.


SPOILER




R.A.B


Regulus Black, Sirius' younger brother. I think his name was tossed around a couple of times for this reason.

StarLab
2005-Jul-21, 02:10 PM
Yeah Polly, that's what I thought as well. B)

rbissell
2005-Jul-21, 07:35 PM
I loved the book. In fact, I think it is one of the best and will make an incredible movie. I thought in places it was predictable but I guess when you deal with magic anything can happen at any time. :D I certainly would recommend it to anyone interested in a good read.

I wonder where this leaves Harry? It seems that it ended with him developing hate and wanting revenge. As we know one of the principles of the book is that the greatest of Harry's traits is love. I also wonder about Ginny. Where he has let her go I feel she may be the person who saves him from dark magic in the end. I also feel that Dumbledore is not gone and Snape and he are working a plan.

So many things to think about.

tater1337
2005-Jul-22, 01:13 AM
I have a new bent on this......


regardless of what rowling said, there will be an 8th book.

the 7th will deal with the dursleys, the wedding, his inherited new home, and just about all other loose ends, with the main driving plot being the hunt for Voldemort.
the real cliffhanger will be when harry finds the death eaters HQ and possibly escapes.

now, the 8th book will be where harry retreats after finding the death eaters HQ. goes back to hogwarts to gather potions, spells, magical items, cannon fodder(er, wizard infantry).

I really can't see where JK could pull this all off in one book, but then again I didin't think book 4 should have been one volume, but two.

plot suprises? harry gets injured, house elfs become the heavy hitters against voldemort. teachers fight alongside students against the death eaters. Snape begs forgiveness (he did not know D drank the potion, and thought he could survive the fall)

bossman20081
2005-Jul-22, 01:44 AM
SPOILERS

I don't know about that Tater, she's been writing the books for 15 years. I'm pretty sure she has some idea how many books there will be ;) .

Also, if any book should be two volumes, it's the Order of the Pheonix. It's over 800 pages long! In any case, she has said that it will most likely (she's not 100% sure) that it will be shorter then OotP. I'd say it will be the size of the 6 book.

And about Dumbledore's fall, the Avada Kedavra curse is what killed him, not the fall. No one can survive Avada Kedvra (except Harry, but that was a one time deal).

And I think the only person that fits R.A.B. (that we currently know of) is Regulus Black, so I agree with you two (Star and Polly) about that

StarLab
2005-Jul-23, 04:10 AM
I think Wormtail will retaliate against Snape in the 7th installment.

Most of the plot was predictable in book 6, especially the part about Snape hearing Trelawney's first prediction. That was kinda obvious when we learned of the prophecy in book 5.

I also think in book 7 Harry will romance with Ginny (as she'll probably be "legal" near the end of book 7).

Something will undoubtedly happen with the Dursleys at the outset of book 7, and I think we've all been waiting for Harry's brilliant idea to finally visit Godric's hollow.

We will probably find a soft spot in Cissy in book 7, and Malfoy will undoubtedly stay alive. Also, the odds of both Hermione and Ron W. surviving together don't look that high (one of them's gotta die).

Hagrid'll no doubt confront Riddle before Harry finishes him off.

In the end, Harry might not kill Voldemort, although some conversations Harry has with Dumbledore in HBP might invalidate that assumption.

tater1337
2005-Jul-23, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by bossman20081@Jul 21 2005, 08:44 PM
SPOILERS

I don't know about that Tater, she's been writing the books for 15 years. I'm pretty sure she has some idea how many books there will be ;) .


authors have been known to change minds :D



Also, if any book should be two volumes, it's the Order of the Pheonix. It's over 800 pages long! In any case, she has said that it will most likely (she's not 100% sure) that it will be shorter then OotP. I'd say it will be the size of the 6 book.


ok, thats the one I meant(can't keep my books straight)

one thing that I hate about some authors, is that they try to keep to some standard, regardless of how the writing will suffer. in looking at the last chapter of the book, do you think she will be able to cram everything into one book?



And about Dumbledore's fall, the Avada Kedavra curse is what killed him, not the fall. No one can survive Avada Kedvra (except Harry, but that was a one time deal).


shows how bad my memory is. couldnt remember what the spell was that Snape hit hit with....

but then again, it would have been a great plot twist if Snape cast a non-verbal spell while speaking the curse, thereby having witnesses believe the Dumbledore is dead, and that snape is loyal to voldemort, and that nearly all hope is lost.

but the last two chapters kill that idea completely.....

or do they?

assume snape (or an accomplice) hides Dumbledores real body, and a double is placed on the grounds. not impossible, as I bet all the time twisters did not get destroyed as mentioned (Dumbledore keeping one hidden would be his style)



Sadly, while such a storyline would keep everyone happy, and could get maybe even an 8th and 9th book to happen. I don't know if would turn up.

StarLab
2005-Jul-23, 03:24 PM
OK Tater for lack of a better phrase, shut up!

Polly V
2005-Jul-23, 09:21 PM
[/QUOTE]
'I think Wormtail will retaliate against Snape in the 7th installment."

Snape is now the golden boy of the DE, rather untouchable to the rest of the gang. There's definitley going to be jealously among the ranks, but no DE is going to do him in, unless he's deep uncover, which I would like to believe but its more likely I'm in denial. As I said before he is my favorite character since the beginning with PS/SS.

"I also think in book 7 Harry will romance with Ginny (as she'll probably be "legal" near the end of book 7)."

Nope, I don't think that's gonna happen. JKR likes her hero to go it alone, it makes thing more interesting in her opinion. I strongly disagree but its her book.


"We will probably find a soft spot in Cissy in book 7, and Malfoy will undoubtedly stay alive."

You think so, I don't know. Draco didn't complete his task. Although Snape had to complete it, I don't think Draco is off the hook. If he isn't killed, he's certainly in for a rough time and rightly so little twerp.

"In the end, Harry might not kill Voldemort, although some conversations Harry has with Dumbledore in HBP might invalidate that assumption."

I felt this way at the end of Ootp, that voldemort would be destroyed but Tom Riddle would still exist, now I'm not so sure.

bossman20081
2005-Jul-24, 09:52 PM
Tom Riddle is Voldemort. They are the same person; Voldemort is merely an alter ego for Riddle.

Polly V
2005-Jul-25, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by bossman20081@Jul 24 2005, 09:52 PM
Tom Riddle is Voldemort. They are the same person; Voldemort is merely an alter ego for Riddle.
I think you missed my point. Tom became Voldemort, so in essence one could destroy one and leave the remanent of Tom Riddle behind. If you remember way back in COS book2, Dobby refers to Tom and Voldemort as separate people, because he wasn't Lord Volemort at that point.

StarLab
2005-Jul-25, 03:24 AM
Yeah, but conversations between Harry and Albus in books five and six make it totally, completely improbable that Harry will kill the soul of Lord Voldemort but save Tom Riddle.

bossman20081
2005-Jul-25, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Polly V+Jul 24 2005, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Polly V @ Jul 24 2005, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bossman20081@Jul 24 2005, 09:52 PM
Tom Riddle is Voldemort. They are the same person; Voldemort is merely an alter ego for Riddle.
I think you missed my point. Tom became Voldemort, so in essence one could destroy one and leave the remanent of Tom Riddle behind. If you remember way back in COS book2, Dobby refers to Tom and Voldemort as separate people, because he wasn&#39;t Lord Volemort at that point. [/b][/quote]
Tom always was Voldemort; Tom is not some innocent character that is misguided, he is pure evil. Surely you read the part where Dumbledore went to pick him up? Did you see how evil that kid was at 11? Voldemort is the true Riddle.

John L
2005-Jul-25, 06:22 PM
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First of all, if you haven&#39;t done so, go to Mugglenet and read the two hour long interview with J.K. Rowling. It was a good interview and she answered a lot of questions. I&#39;ve noted in my opinions below where J.K. has confirmed something...

R.A.B. is Regulus A. (Alphard?) Black according to J.K. herself. Alphard was the name of the uncle that had willed a lot of money to Sirius. In OotP in the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black chapter there was a heavy gold locket in one of the cabinets they cleaned out that could be the locket that R.A.B. stole from the sea side cave. Expect Harry to go back to 12 Grimauld Place to find it. Either Kreacher saved it, being an heirloom of Slitherin, or Mundungus stole it and sold it. Also, as Dumbledore is gone, the house is no longer hidden. Expect an encounter with Bellatrix, Narcissa, or even Snape there.

J.K. Rowling mentioned another DADA teacher, so expect Harry and the gang to go back to Hogwarts for their last year, regardless of what Harry said. Its the logical place for Harry to look for Horcrux info such as the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor object, and for continued education. Could one still be hidden in the Chamber of Secrets or the Room of Requirement? Hermione will be a big help with her library skills and history knowledge. Harry will need to go back to school to learn all the skills Dumbledore showed in the sea side cave if he expects to find and take the Horcruxes.

Ron and Hermione will be dating. J.K. said so. I think Harry and Ginny will get back together anyway... probably at Bill&#39;s wedding. She&#39;s too strong a character not to make Harry see that she is going to help him anyway, so they might as well date and enjoy it. Ginny Potter? Hermione Weasley? Luna Longbottom?

Snape is evil. Harry never confided in Dumbledore the way Snape has treated him for years. Dumbledore only got a hint when Snape stopped the Occulamency lessons, but I don&#39;t think he ever understood the hatred. Snape was using his status as spy to keep himself out of prison, but once Voldemort came back in GoF, Snape went back to being a loyal Death Eater. Dumbledore and Slughorn talked about murder tearing the soul, being the ultimate evil act. Dumbledore would NEVER order anyone to commit murder as part of any plan.

Before leaving the school for good, though, Snape gave Harry his most important lesson ever. Harry is NOT ready to face Voldemort. Voldemort is the world&#39;s most accomplished Legilimens and Snape showed Harry that you not only need to be able to fight without speaking the spells, but you have to be able to hide the spell you are thinking. Harry will have to master Occulamency before the final battle or he won&#39;t stand a chance.

Peter Wormtail Pettigrew will save Harry from Fenrir Greyback. Why else give someone that has a life-debt to Harry a silver hand? Maybe they&#39;ll be the ones waiting in ambush at 12 Grimauld Place, and Peter will kill Greyback to save Harry and repay his debt.

The diary and the ring are destroyed. The locket and the cup are still in existence and most likely two of the missing Horcruxes. Is there a missing Ravenclaw/Gryffindor object, or as Harry thought could it really be that mouth organ (harmonica) that Voldemort had as a child? Would he have kept that one trophy of childhood and used it for a Horcrux? Would he have used the snake Nagini? After getting back to school I think this will be the first task they&#39;ll have.

I think Harry will quit Quidditch and become Hermione-like in his devotion to studying. He needs all of the skills and power he can muster for the final fight. Ron will take over as Captain and be made Head Boy, thus fullfilling the Mirror of Erised&#39;s image of Ron&#39;s deepest desires.

StarLab
2005-Jul-26, 04:33 AM
Wow John that&#39;s...that&#39;s alotta information&#33; :blink:

Got any more? :Drools:

Fraser
2005-Jul-26, 05:43 AM
Okay, I just finished the book, so I can actually look at this thread and join the conversation.

I really enjoyed it. Best book of the series so far, which was a relief. It&#39;s nice to see a series get better as it goes on.

Matthew
2005-Jul-26, 09:17 AM
I finished the book last night. It was like Fraser said the best book of the series thus far. However a few minor irritations with it were the over use of "spell&#39;s". Now its a book about magic so of course there is going to be spell&#39;s, but I found some of the spells the characters to be using were from previous books. Now since I hadn&#39;t read a HP book since OotP I was a bit lost in what was actually happened.

I started out thinking that I was just reading it because everyone else was (which was true), but I actually enjoyed it. I expected it to be childish (I finished Wheel of time a few months ago, at least of the 10 books out, and that is fiendishly more complex). As much as I hate to say it I can&#39;t wait till the seventh book.

Go check out the book "Eragon" if you like this sort of theme.

John L
2005-Jul-26, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jul 25 2005, 10:33 PM
Wow John that&#39;s...that&#39;s alotta information&#33; :blink:

Got any more? :Drools:
I&#39;m sure I could go into more detail, but those are the basics of what I think about HBP and what I think it means for book 7. I did love HBP and I think it is now my favorite, replacing Goblet of Fire. I loved that one a lot though... it&#39;s a tough call.

What about you? Do you think Snape is really evil or still working on Dumbledore&#39;s orders. After see what Snape was like through his copy of Advanced Potions, and what we learned about Voldemort&#39;s childhood, I see Snape as being Voldemort-lite.

What are your theories about the Horcruxes, the relationships, the trio returning to school, and of course the final fight?

StarLab
2005-Jul-26, 05:22 PM
Theories? I&#39;m afraid I have no theories. This is Rowling&#39;s world, her imagination. What she says, goes.

Fraser
2005-Jul-26, 06:01 PM
I think Snape is evil, but I think Dumbledore knew it all along. He mentioned time and time again that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape. Maybe he&#39;s trusting Snape to somehow lead Harry to Voldemort, or be the final hammer blow that hardens him to do what he needs to do.

One of the shining points of this book is how well JKR has taken a nebulous, evil Voldemort and shown how he was put together. What kind of an upbringing would produce such a monster, and how his actions are perfectly in character.

Contrast this to Anikin in the various Star Wars movies; it was a leap that Lucas could never make, from innocent, carefree boy to child killer. Voldemort never was right in the head, but he blended into wizard society quite well. If they&#39;d made Anikin a creepy little unlikable kid, with immense power in the force - so the Jedis had to keep him close by - I think the prequels might have hung together much better.

John L
2005-Jul-26, 07:14 PM
Interesting Snape theory&#33; Dumbledore trusted Snape because he knew what kind of person he really was, could predict how he&#39;d react in various situations, and could use that in his plans for Harry... Hmmm.

Ditto on both J.K.&#39;s mad literary skills, and on Lucas&#39;s apparent lack. I was so disappointed in the prequels, too.

My big worry on the HP movies is that the horid job Curan did on Azkaban will be repeated with the rest of the movies. Don&#39;t get me wrong. Azkaban had some of the best special effects I&#39;ve ever seen - Buckbeak and the dementors were excellent. But he hacked and slashed the story and changed the look and feel of the characters and scenery in a way that was just wrong IMO. I would have expected at least an extra 5 minutes of movie to explain where the map came from, why everyone seemed to know how to get into the shrieking shack, and why Harry&#39;s patronus looked like a stag (only in one of the scenes did it really look like a stag&#33;). Besides meeting Sirius, the whole Marauder story line was the most important part of that book, and Curan just cut a huge swath through it.

bossman20081
2005-Jul-27, 05:51 AM
John-

I might have missed something, but I think there&#39;s some spoilers in that. :P

Excellent analysis on the HBP, I agree 100%. (I did read that interview as well, it was most informative). I have to say though, there were tons of clues that it would Ron/Hermione and not Harry/Hermione (you would not believe some of the flame wars I saw over this). Also, Legilemency is not mind reading; I always imagined it more like empathy. So, it&#39;s more like a lie detector rather then mind reading, which doesn&#39;t seem like that big of an advantage in battle. I have no clue what Peter&#39;s role in all of this will be, but I can guarantee that Voldemort will not send him to kill Harry. Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself (it was highly emphasized in the books). But, you&#39;re right, Peter is in debt to Harry and he will have to repay that debt (perhaps telling him where the horcruxes are? Though I doubt such an underling such as Wormtail would have such info, but you never know).

Fraser-
I agree; this is the best book thus far. ;)

Matthew-
I&#39;m dissapointed that she used the same spells; I would like to see some more advanced magic like the Patronus (which is a very cool concept if you think about it).

I don&#39;t see why you&#39;re so reluctant to like the books though; it&#39;s a children&#39;s book, but I think it&#39;s more then appropriate for everyone. (for instance, my mom and I argued over who would read the book first, I have the cut on arm to prove it&#33; :lol: )

Fraser again-
I don&#39;t think so, Dumbledore trusted Snape, perhaps moreso then anyone else in the Order. I think that Dumbledore truly believed that Snape was good, which I don&#39;t know why, Snape hated James, why would he be sorry that he led to the Potters deaths? I think that Harry will end up killing Snape.

I agree with your comments on the characters though; I have never seen characters as thought out or detailed as the ones JK rowling thought up. I also really like how she shows that each of the characters are changing, growing, and maturing. Compare OoTP Harry to HBP Harry and you will see what I mean.

John L again-
I doubt it, how could anyone, even Dumbledore, plan for that? There are too many variables to justify this reasoning.

I agree on the third movie as well. It was good, don&#39;t get me wrong, but it just doesn&#39;t compare to the book. In the Shrieking Shack, there was literally no explanation. It didn&#39;t tell about the animosity between James and Snape, it didn&#39;t tell about the suspicions between James/Lupin/Sirius, it didn&#39;t tell about the Secret Keeper spell that was placed over James and Lily&#39;s house, and it didn&#39;t tell what happened that night that James and Lily died. The third movie is suppose to be a major revelation in the story, but it was a complete failure in that regard.

Matthew
2005-Jul-27, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by bossman20081@Jul 27 2005, 04:51 PM
Matthew-
I&#39;m dissapointed that she used the same spells; I would like to see some more advanced magic like the Patronus (which is a very cool concept if you think about it).

I don&#39;t see why you&#39;re so reluctant to like the books though; it&#39;s a children&#39;s book, but I think it&#39;s more then appropriate for everyone. (for instance, my mom and I argued over who would read the book first, I have the cut on arm to prove it&#33; :lol: )

I was reluctant before reading it. But I quickly came to enjoy it. Now there are no such reservations. I found the new book to have a lot more depth and while I didn&#39;t think of Rowling&#39;s Voldemort investigation like Fraser did, now reading his post made me realise how much deeper and important that sub-story was.



What are your theories about the Horcruxes, the relationships, the trio returning to school, and of course the final fight?

While I am not sure about the Hocruxes I am of the opinion that one of the four will be a complete surprise.

Harry will return to Hogwarts, if he&#39;s late I can&#39;t tell, but I am sure he will go.

And I think the book will be the 2nd longest book in the series.

John L
2005-Jul-27, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by bossman20081@Jul 26 2005, 11:51 PM
John-

I might have missed something, but I think there&#39;s some spoilers in that. :P

Excellent analysis on the HBP, I agree 100%. (I did read that interview as well, it was most informative). I have to say though, there were tons of clues that it would Ron/Hermione and not Harry/Hermione (you would not believe some of the flame wars I saw over this). Also, Legilemency is not mind reading; I always imagined it more like empathy. So, it&#39;s more like a lie detector rather then mind reading, which doesn&#39;t seem like that big of an advantage in battle. I have no clue what Peter&#39;s role in all of this will be, but I can guarantee that Voldemort will not send him to kill Harry. Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself (it was highly emphasized in the books). But, you&#39;re right, Peter is in debt to Harry and he will have to repay that debt (perhaps telling him where the horcruxes are? Though I doubt such an underling such as Wormtail would have such info, but you never know).
Bossman,

From Harry&#39;s Occulamency training in OotP I see Legilimency as a fairly random intrusion into the mind. When Snape repeatedly attacked Harry&#39;s mind he would see images of Harry&#39;s thoughts. I get the impression from those experiences and from the fight with Snape at the end of HBP that if you are concentrating on something when the Legilimens spell is used then that will probably be the first and most prominent thing the caster would see. I agree, of course, as Snape so acidly pointed out, that Legilimency is not mind reading, though I think it goes somewhat beyond simple empathy.

And I think the whole Wormtail-Greyback situation will play out as an ambush set for the Order members that Harry himself falls into. I think Snape is evil, so now that Dumbledore is dead and 12 Griwauld Place is exposed that an ambush will be set there for the Order, and as Harry has to go back there he will fall into, but of course survive. The location and situation is just a WAG, but I think Greyback will fall to Wormtail&#39;s silver hand... maybe Lupin will, too.

RobWolfe
2005-Jul-27, 05:57 PM
I think Snape may be doing what Dumbledore wanted him to do. I am not convinced that Dumbledore is actually dead. Recall the speach he gave Malfoy just before he died about how Voldemort couldn&#39;t kill him if he was already dead, and that the Order could protect him and his mother. I think that may have been a clue as to what was going on. Also, when Snape showed up, Dumbledore immediately started to plead with him. Why did he not assume that Snape was there to rescue him if this was not part of the "plan"? If there had been a moment when he realized that Snape had betrayed him I might feel differently but his reaction was immediate. I think his death was staged so that he could work undercover and Snape would be Voldemort&#39;s right hand man and a very valuable spy.

StarLab
2005-Jul-27, 06:32 PM
That won&#39;t work. Albus woulda revealed himself to Harry. Also, recall all the recollections in the ward in Phoenix Lament chapter. Albus is dead. Sorry Wolfe.

bossman20081
2005-Jul-27, 08:04 PM
John L-

The exact definition of Legilimency is "the ability to extract feelings and memories from another persons mind" (that&#39;s from Snape BTW). So, I was partially right and you were partially right. I still don&#39;t see that as being useful in battle.

I don&#39;t see Lupin dying; he just got together with Tonks, so I don&#39;t think she would kill him off, though, I wouldn&#39;t put it past her.

RobWolfe-

Dumbledore has to be dead, Snape performed to the Unbreakable Vow, remember? If Dumbledore is not dead, then Snape would be dead, and last I checked, he was alive and kicking.

StarLab
2005-Jul-27, 10:51 PM
Whatever Legilimency is, I do not think it is a staple of Voldemort so much as it is a staple of Snape. The chances of Lupin dying in book 7 are pretty slim - I&#39;d say about 18%. John L, I agree with your earlier assertion of Snape&#39;s Voldemort likeness, though I doubt that the ambush situation you described would actually happen.. Fraser, I like your comparison of HBP to the SW prequels. Matthew on that last post, everything well said&#33;

John L
2005-Jul-28, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jul 27 2005, 04:51 PM
Whatever Legilimency is, I do not think it is a staple of Voldemort so much as it is a staple of Snape. The chances of Lupin dying in book 7 are pretty slim - I&#39;d say about 18%. John L, I agree with your earlier assertion of Snape&#39;s Voldemort likeness, though I doubt that the ambush situation you described would actually happen.. Fraser, I like your comparison of HBP to the SW prequels. Matthew on that last post, everything well said&#33;
Not true about the Dark Lord. He is supposed to be the world&#39;s best Legilimens. That was why Snape was supposed to be a good spy because he was a great Occulamens.

StarLab
2005-Jul-28, 05:57 PM
If all this were true about L. Voldemort, Harry woulda been dead. I don&#39;t think we will see Voldemort using Legilimency in battle against Harry the way Snape did at the end of HBP.

John L
2005-Jul-28, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by StarLab@Jul 28 2005, 11:57 AM
If all this were true about L. Voldemort, Harry woulda been dead. I don&#39;t think we will see Voldemort using Legilimency in battle against Harry the way Snape did at the end of HBP.
Why woulda Harry been dead? LV didn&#39;t know the AK curse would backfire when Harry was a baby, and had no body or wand until the end of GoF. And then, he had no idea that his and Harry&#39;s wand shared cores so he couldn&#39;t predict what saved Harry then. Dumbledore saved Harry at the end of OotP, and he knows enough Occulamency to be able to duel with LV. When Harry and LV meet in the final battle, I think the very first thing you&#39;ll see is LV making a comment about how Harry must know Occulamency because he can&#39;t see what Harry is trying to cast. I think you&#39;re totally wrong here, but the only way you could be right about the Harry/LV battle is if LV keeps his own mind closed to avoid letting Harry see too much through the scar connection.

StarLab
2005-Jul-28, 09:59 PM
But Dumbledore has already indicated in HBP that Voldemort has stopped - and probably for good - getting into Harry&#39;s head after the Ministry HQ fight.


Oh and until book seven comes out, my faves from best to least:

Azkaban
Prince
Stone
Phoenix
Chamber
Goblet

John L
2005-Jul-29, 01:25 PM
Well, LV isn&#39;t going to try to possess Harry again because being inside Harry is painful, but that&#39;s not the same as Legilimency, which is just a spell.

And my favs are:

Goblet and Prince (tied)
Azkaban
Stone
Phoenix
Chamber

Polly V
2005-Jul-30, 09:50 PM
I accepted that Dumbledore is dead, but one thing bothers me.

When Snape AK&#39;d him, the text states
"dd was blasted into the air: for a split second he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backwards, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." pg 556 UK edition HBP
Now anytime someone has been killed with AK they just drop to ground, why all this extra stuff, what does it mean or does mean anything?

GOF Cedric death, just falls to the ground, Riddle family death slumped over the table didn&#39;t move from sitting positions, spider during class - same thing. Why is Dumbledore different? <_<

bossman20081
2005-Jul-31, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Polly V@Jul 30 2005, 06:20 PM
I accepted that Dumbledore is dead, but one thing bothers me.

When Snape AK&#39;d him, the text states
"dd was blasted into the air: for a split second he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backwards, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." pg 556 UK edition HBP
Now anytime someone has been killed with AK they just drop to ground, why all this extra stuff, what does it mean or does mean anything?

GOF Cedric death, just falls to the ground, Riddle family death slumped over the table didn&#39;t move from sitting positions, spider during class - same thing. Why is Dumbledore different? <_<
It&#39;s just to add detail to it; would you really want Rowling to say he just dropped to the ground? No, he&#39;s way too important and it&#39;s much more personal then Cedric, wouldn&#39;t you expect as much?

Polly V
2005-Aug-01, 01:23 AM
Well if it&#39;s just stylistic writing, I personally could do without. JKR is pretty consistent, and all other deaths with AK are very similar. I&#39;m in a book club discussing this book but unfortunately we are only on chapter 10, and i had to get this off my chest.

thanks

John L
2005-Aug-01, 01:50 AM
I wrote up a little editorial (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/john01.shtml) and Mugglenet actually published it. For those who asked for detail its in there, although the whole Harry is Gryffendore&#39;s heir was shot down by JK herself on July 16th toward the end of her interview.

Polly V
2005-Aug-01, 03:42 AM
Nice editiorial, really good insight and examples. Now we have to wait 2 years to see how close your editiorial comes into canon.

I thought it interesting that you have more than one reason of LV going to Godric&#39;s Hollow. I have always thought of the Potter&#39;s death having to do with the incomplete prophecy LV was told, not having to do with a horcrux. Another tidbit to think about.

Again excellent write up.

SciFi Chick
2005-Sep-02, 02:06 AM
Hi all. I&#39;m new to the site, but I&#39;m not new to Harry Potter. I&#39;ve read through the thread, and I&#39;m fascinated to see responses to HBP that I hadn&#39;t seen before. I had been convinced by other threads that Snape might still be good, and that if he wasn&#39;t it was really bad writing, but some of you have some excellent reasons for how he could be evil, and it would still be good writing.

I&#39;m still leaning towards the camp that says he&#39;s good and just deep undercover. Something about the way he was yelling at Harry on his way out of Hogwarts just left me with the feeling that he was desperate to get through to Harry and frustrated that he hasn&#39;t been able to thus far, and still hating him on some level. One of the reasons I don&#39;t think he is evil is that he didn&#39;t kill Hagrid or Professor Flitwick or whoever it was that ran in to help Flitwick - it escapes me at the moment. There are so many people he could have killed to weaken Harry for Voldemort&#39;s attack, and he did not.

I also think Dumbledore is dead, but in book one, Dumbledore says that death is just the beginning of the next journey, to paraphrase, and who&#39;s to say his journey doesn&#39;t still involve him in Harry&#39;s fate?

Just a few thoughts. :)


(I finished Wheel of time a few months ago, at least of the 10 books out, and that is fiendishly more complex).

[rant]Fiendishly more complex? :blink: How so? And forgive me for being blunt, but how on Earth did you get through Book 10? I finally gave up after the umpteenth unnecessary description of a dress followed by some idiot girl with her hands folded huffily under her breasts staring angrily at some man who doesn&#39;t know how to respond.

Argh&#33; Jordan is a man who could learn a thing or two from Rowling about planning a series&#33; He originally said this would be a trilogy and for the last several books has been claiming that it will take three more books after each book&#33; And in the middle of all this, he writes a prequel&#33; A PREQUEL&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

I&#39;ve finally given up until I have word the series has ended or he has dropped dead. I&#39;m particularly aggravated, because I&#39;ve been following this series since it&#39;s inception in 1989.

I hope you&#39;re right about it&#39;s complexities, because I&#39;m thinking all sorts of evil thoughts about the author, and there are hundreds of people so upset, they&#39;ve taken the time to comment about it at both Barnes & Noble and Amazon. [/end rant] :D