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ToSeek
2002-Dec-03, 09:18 PM
Russian technicians visit European space launch base in French Guiana (http://www.spacedaily.com/2002/021203034725.rl1vrryp.html)

The Russians have had a problem ever since the breakup of the USSR because their launch site is in Kazakhstan, not Russia. Perhaps this is a solution.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-06, 05:49 PM
It's official: Europe to pay Russia to build Soyuz pad at Kourou (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/launcher-soyuz-04a.html)

If this goes through, it means that we don't need to have spacecraft at a 51 degree inclination orbit any more in order to cooperate with the Russians.

Madcat
2004-Feb-06, 10:10 PM
So will this make Baikonur the first spaceport to be retired? :)

Glom
2004-Feb-06, 10:16 PM
That's would be a shame, because it's a cool name.

Andromeda321
2004-Feb-06, 11:01 PM
If this goes through, it means that we don't need to have spacecraft at a 51 degree inclination orbit any more in order to cooperate with the Russians.

Yea, the most irritating things happen when your launches have to dodge a whole 'nother country...
How much extra will it cost to launch down there though? Anyone have any ideas?

ToSeek
2004-Feb-07, 01:14 AM
If this goes through, it means that we don't need to have spacecraft at a 51 degree inclination orbit any more in order to cooperate with the Russians.

Yea, the most irritating things happen when your launches have to dodge a whole 'nother country...


Smithsonian magazine (or possibly Air & Space/Smithsonian) had an article about the Kazakhstan locals scavenging rocket parts from crashed lower stages and selling them.

Madcat
2004-Feb-07, 01:19 AM
Doesn't it cost less to launch from a lower latitude?

Maksutov
2004-Feb-07, 01:56 AM
Doesn't it cost less to launch from a lower latitude?

It's probably a trade-off between the extra payload you can carry due to the equator effect, versus the cost of transporting all the equipment from Russia to French Guiana.

Madcat
2004-Feb-07, 02:52 AM
Well, the launchpad's already there. The rockets will have to get shipped in though, right? Could any of the Araines possibly be adapted to launch a Soyuz? (If so why doesn't the ESA ever try this?)

Oh and also, think the cosmonauts are happy to be moving to the tropics? :)

Andromeda321
2004-Feb-07, 02:54 AM
Oh and also, think the cosmonauts are happy to be moving to the tropics?

:o :o :o I'm trying to figure out why any right-minded cosmonaut would have a problem with leaving the Russian winter for the beach...

ToSeek
2004-Feb-07, 01:58 PM
Well, the launchpad's already there. The rockets will have to get shipped in though, right?

The article indicates that they will be building a pad tailored to launch Soyuz rockets.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jul-12, 02:15 AM
There has been much written on this one, an article asserts that cargo can be increased by 2 to 3 times over Soyuz or Progress launched from Baikanur. Kourou's proximity to the equator will allow carriers to take two or three times more freight than their counterparts lifting off from the Baikonur space center in Kazakhstan and a single Soyuz launch will enable Russia to save up to $60 million. Europe is also looking at the Russia Klipper space craft.
http://en.rian.ru/science/20050614/40522014.html
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17113
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050614/40518570.html

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050705/40848713.html
http://www.physorg.com/news4929.html

Heid the Ba'
2005-Jul-12, 11:31 AM
Oh and also, think the cosmonauts are happy to be moving to the tropics?

:o :o :o I'm trying to figure out why any right-minded cosmonaut would have a problem with leaving the Russian winter for the beach...

Have you ever been to French Guiana? I understand that the expression armpit is both too kind, and too high and offcentre.

2005-Jul-12, 12:00 PM
So will this make Baikonur the first spaceport to be retired? :)

Would you count the nearly completed but never used shuttle launch complex at Vandenburg?

John Kierein
2005-Jul-12, 12:08 PM
One of my friends was launching a payload from there. They were playing tennis on an off day. An anaconda came onto the court. They quit the game.

Grand Vizier
2005-Jul-12, 02:35 PM
So will this make Baikonur the first spaceport to be retired? :)

Would you count the nearly completed but never used shuttle launch complex at Vandenburg?

I think that the first orbital launch site to be definitely retired would have to be Hammaguir in Algeria, from which France launched most of their Diamant orbital missions. Ironically, the successor was, of course, Kourou.

Other candidates for retired sites - though it is not definite that they will never be used again - would be the San Marco platform off Kenya; Woomera (though Kistler and others have so-far unrealised plans to use that site); and Kapustin Yar in Russia.

Wallops Island in Virginia, which was the site of many Scout launches, is also a candidate, though I believe there are still proposals to launch Pegasus from there (of course Pegasus only requires a large runway, so you could launch it from New York or London if you felt like it.)

ngc3314
2005-Jul-12, 03:52 PM
Well, the launchpad's already there. The rockets will have to get shipped in though, right?

The article indicates that they will be building a pad tailored to launch Soyuz rockets.

There is some confusion possible - "Soyuz" is the name both of a booster series and of a spacecraft. So far, the public statements seem to all pertain to the booster, with no clear funding yet for the additional support facilities needed for launching cosmonauts from Kourou.

I have a hard time picturing Baikonur being retired, if only for the same reason Mike Griffin seemed uncomfortable with the US being forced to rely on other countries for crew launched until the CEV (or whatever it morphs into) is ready.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jul-12, 05:29 PM
So will this make Baikonur the first spaceport to be retired? :)

Would you count the nearly completed but never used shuttle launch complex at Vandenburg?

I think that the first orbital launch site to be definitely retired would have to be Hammaguir in Algeria, from which France launched most of their Diamant orbital missions. Ironically, the successor was, of course, Kourou.

Other candidates for retired sites - though it is not definite that they will never be used again - would be the San Marco platform off Kenya; Woomera (though Kistler and others have so-far unrealised plans to use that site); and Kapustin Yar in Russia.

Wallops Island in Virginia, which was the site of many Scout launches, is also a candidate, though I believe there are still proposals to launch Pegasus from there (of course Pegasus only requires a large runway, so you could launch it from New York or London if you felt like it.)

Australia have a few abandoned places, the Woomera site has not launched anything since 1971. The Aussies have Darwin as a projected launch site and in this area there was already an Emergency landing strip for shuttle, they also had plans for rocket launches from Cape York. From Australia I have not heard Liberal Party, Labor Party or any members of Howard's government mention Australia's Space plans.

Europe's launch site Hammaguir in Algeria was left out, the CNES French went away from it and decided to build at Kourou South America after Algeria became independant and the Algerian people won their war for independence from France back in 1964 even in the 1990s the radical islamic Algerian-based GIA is suspected of involvement in all of the terrorist bombings in France


For the USA I've heard that Kodiak in Alaska is giving some economic trouble, aside from the cost of building such a complex weather is expected to be nasty at times and causes launch delay. Alaska Aerospace have done a good job at building another launch site but because of the large costs some folks refer to it as "Space Pork Kodiak". The Wallops site hasn't been very active for some time, launches from Aircraft and rockets from the SLC platform seem to be moving along fine, I think the l;ast Wallops launch was 1985, Kodiak space port may have cost much but the site is very good for polar and high inclination satellites.

Baikonur won't be an Abandoned site, it is far too good plus the Russians have sent up Energia, Soyuz and Dnepr from here. They may scale back Baikonur Kazakhstan a little bit but it is a very much used launch facility, and does great work. Like helping on the ISS, doing joint missions with the ESA, and sending Americans into Astronauts Space from their Russian manned spacecraft. The Russian space site Plesetsk also has a very high level of activity, with Start-1, Molniya, Soyuz and Kosmos launches. There are three possible Russian launches that might be left behind, Kapustin Yar site is not very active, the Svobodny facility isn't doing much but perhaps its just growing and might expand in future, Launches from Submarines started off good but have started to fail like the Cosmos Solar Sail failure. Start-1 is a study into ballistic missile conversion, they have been negotiating with Canada's spaceport people, Australia and the Brazilian base of Alcantara for launches. A new Eurockot has been developed from the joint venture between German company DSA and Kurunichev which became DaimlerChrysler Aerospace, after the break up of USSR the Ukraine has retained some knowledge on space and offers the Zenit and Ukrainians had ideas to launch Zenit3 from Australia's Cape York.

Chinese are expanding in Space, they may look at cutting cost and getting better science by doing joint missions with the Europeans or NASA. China launch sites are growing at getting very active, the Xichang launch facility, the Jiuquan site and the Taiyuan. China government officals said before they were considering a Heavy Long March Rocket for a 20-40 tonne to low orbit and might think of moving to the Biak islands at Indonesia for the launch of a CZ3 rocket, but I'm not sure how things are moving on this and the project might be abandoned. The Chinese have already launched many foreign satellites for Sweden, Pakistan, the USA, Philippines and Australia.


Europe's other site San Marco station was not used since 1988, but the platforms were certified until 2014 and the ASI plans to use the Russian launcher Start-1, Italy are studying plan for upgrading Europe's Vega Rocket and the Spanish looked at the Capricornio for small launches, (INTA) announced plans to develop a small orbital launch vehicle with a small payload capacity, Swedish will have rockets from at Esrange outside Kiruna, but any of these projects could fall down easily. The French Guiana site in South America is still one of the best, Ariane has done very well in the Kourou launch facility. The Kourou area doesn't see Hirricane winds and is a very low risk for Quake unlike other launch sites around the world, storms and earthquakes can cause huge problems. French Guiana is ideal for geostationary orbits and is well located for polar orbits. The Russians have moved for the ESA South America site because of the various benefits, the Russian Klipper reusable ship they have still been able to progress even with little to no funding they are looking to get Europe into the Russian Shuttle idea. Visitors to the Paris Air Show were being treated to a full-scale mockup of Russia’s proposed Kliper spaceliner.

The Kliper could be in service in the 2010-2011 timeframe. Novosti has also quoted Perminov as saying that the Kliper can be launched from European as well as Russian spaceports. ESA had plans for the Hermes space plane but it fell through because of problems but ESA's Future Launchers Programme is important if they want to do space station work and go to Mars with Aurora. The European Mars mission was launched with Soyuz/Fregat launcher at Baikonur, Kazakhstan while the Cluster satellites each were 2 Russian Soyuz rockets. Kliper was proposed in 2004 by the Russian Energia Corp, money that ESA could provide to the Russian space effort could easily pay for development of the Kliper and it would give the ESA a manned craft that may well be capable of being launched by Arianne or by a generation of Russian boosters from the ESA facility in french guyanna. Russian space officials forecast that the Kliper can carry six people: two pilots with the other four seats for astronauts or space tourists. In addition, the spaceship can haul up to 1,540 pounds (700 kilograms) of cargo. Some key factors for the Ariane-Kourou site in South America, it has very little reduction in kilometres per hour, it is a low risk Earthquake and storm area unlike other space sites. It is not a densely populated area and people are not affected by falling debris, and there is great assistance from the Earth's rotation near the equator and it is great for geostationary launches and well located for polar orbits. Europe can also ask for joined help from NASA and the USA's tracking stations can be used at Wallops, they can also get tracking help from the English archipelago of Bermuda as well as all the other ESA facility at French Guiana and the European area.

Swift
2005-Jul-13, 07:22 PM
Oh and also, think the cosmonauts are happy to be moving to the tropics?

:o :o :o I'm trying to figure out why any right-minded cosmonaut would have a problem with leaving the Russian winter for the beach...

Have you ever been to French Guiana? I understand that the expression armpit is both too kind, and too high and offcentre.
Funny you should say that, this (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/13/french.guiana.ap/index.html) article is on the CNN website under travel today.

"This country has an image of prison and death," said Serge Colin, 74, a retired French navy captain who moved to St. Joseph and gives tours of the jail. "Even today, parents in France tell their young children, 'If you don't behave I'll send you to French Guiana."'

The French government spends $2.2 million a year to shed that image, producing brochures and buying television commercials that show off jungles filled with jaguars and monkeys, beaches where huge tortoises waddle out of the surf, and fishermen whisking piranhas out of rivers.

PatKelley
2005-Jul-13, 07:34 PM
"Fishermen whisking piranhas out of rivers" does not sound like good advertising copy to me...

Come to French Guiana, swim with piranhas, hike with jaguars! And don't forget the rain of monkey feces!

I'm going to miss saying "Baikonur Cosmodrome" in a deep pseudo-Russian accent.

Grand Vizier
2005-Jul-13, 08:42 PM
Excellent summary, MT...




Europe's launch site Hammaguir in Algeria was left out, the CNES French went away from it and decided to build at Kourou South America after Algeria became independant and the Algerian people won their war for independence from France back in 1964 even in the 1990s the radical islamic Algerian-based GIA is suspected of involvement in all of the terrorist bombings in France


Still reckon Hammaguir has it over Woomera as being earliest abandoned, last orbital shot was in 1967:

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/hamguira.htm



For the USA I've heard that Kodiak in Alaska is giving some economic trouble, aside from the cost of building such a complex weather is expected to be nasty at times and causes launch delay. Alaska Aerospace have done a good job at building another launch site but because of the large costs some folks refer to it as "Space Pork Kodiak".


Apart from 'Son of Star Wars' and one Athena orbital mission, I've been wondering what the point of Kodiak was. Think your explanation is as good as any :)




[...] and Ukrainians had ideas to launch Zenit3 from Australia's Cape York.


If we're doing spaceports that never happened, don't forget APSC, who planned to launch 'Aurora', another new R-7 variant, from Christmas Island; Beal Aerospace's plans for Sombrero Island in the Caribbean, scotched by 'market forces' - and NASA - plus environmental objections.

But my favourite has to be the two possible British launch sites for Black Arrow, one in Norfolk, one in the Hebrides:

http://www.spaceuk.org/ba/northsea.htm

I love the sudden discovery, duh, we're going to be running oil platforms out there.

But perhaps when the oil runs out we could convert an old platform and do San Marco style launches from offshore East Anglia. :wink:

There are lots of other proposals, but most of them have never even come as close to fruition as this.



Europe's other site San Marco station was not used since 1988, but the platforms were certified until 2014 and the ASI plans to use the Russian launcher Start-1, Italy are studying plan for upgrading Europe's Vega Rocket and the Spanish looked at the Capricornio for small launches, (INTA) announced plans to develop a small orbital launch vehicle with a small payload capacity, Swedish will have rockets from at Esrange outside Kiruna, but any of these projects could fall down easily.

Well, Vega is by far the most likely to come off:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vega.htm

But Capricornio is listed everywhere as cancelled:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/capcorno.htm

Indeed it is hard to see how two European small launchers would be sustainable, given that ESA has clearly expressed doubts about running even one.

The future of San Marco seems very doubtful, great location, though, because it was largely being kept alive due to the Italian Scout 2 project, which would have revived that good old launcher. That project is dead due to Vega, but everything seems to indicate that this would fly from Kourou.

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/sanmarco.htm

Esrange do indeed keep expressing their intent to provide orbital capability, but this always reads to me like a pious hope.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jul-13, 09:21 PM
Well, Vega is by far the most likely to come off:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vega.htm



Vega is moving forward now, they had been doing testing going through definition and developments, a contract signed and small ESA ceremony took place in Italy
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_Home/SEMCAY2IU7E_0.html

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_Home/SEM5EZ2PGQD_0.html

The Russian Soyuz launcher looks like its is going to Europe’s Spaceport in French Guiana - South America.
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_Mission_in_Russia/SEMSBDYEM4E_0.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_Mission_in_Russia/SEM4PF6DIAE_0.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_Access_to_Space/SEMQ5P57ESD_0.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permanent_Mission_in_Russia/SEMMYU5DIAE_0.html

To ensure that Soyuz will still be able to carry out these missions from Europe’s Spaceport, the launch infrastructure has been designed to ensure that it can be smoothly adapted for human spaceflight, should this be decided upon.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jul-25, 07:27 AM
Kliper to use Buran seats

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/kliper-05a.html

The Kliper program is being pursued by a consortia of interested Russian, European, Japanese partners. It aims to develop a new manned taxi that builds on the legacy of the Soyuz rather than Buran or the US space shuttle.

publiusr
2005-Jul-26, 07:49 PM
If they go with the winged variant they may use more of Buran's many innovations. I am really excited about this. Chelomei was the big advocate for spaceplanes--and that had fallen out of party favor--as it were.

Cool links by the way. I wish I could interest more people in actual rocketry instead of the mindless focus on payloads.

ngc3314
2005-Jul-26, 08:23 PM
If they go with the winged variant they may use more of Buran's many innovations. I am really excited about this. Chelomei was the big advocate for spaceplanes--and that had fallen out of party favor--as it were.



Chelomei wasn't the only one. Rocketry in the fUSSR grew out of rocket planes more than elsewhere (it was as if von Braun had been the brains behind the Me 163 Komet). Not just Chelomei, but Korolev and some others spent the war years (when not under arrest, and sometimes while still under arrest...) working on rocket interceptors. They finally got some into test flights, but by the time it mattered, the front had moved west and it was no longer the Red Army, but the Luftwaffe, which was interested in high-acceleration point-defense interceptors. The idea hung around, maybe there more strongly than elsewhere. Soviet space designers haven't seen a large airplane built since 1950 that didn't have a sign saying "AIR LAUNCH VEHICLE" on it (not that US designers have been far behind), and spaceplane designs have also been floated as long as people have been shot into space. (You almost certainly know this - it's just an aside for onlookers).

I have an article coming up in Griffith Observer on this - winged rockets do seem to come and go in fads, but there are serious tradeoffs that make this happen, so that, as cool as they are and as logical as the idea seems, I'm not sure that this is the best technical way to go...

publiusr
2005-Jul-26, 08:30 PM
You are certainly correct. I think Chelomei just held on to the concept longer--Korolov resigned himself to capsules and gave up on winged designs--even if it was his glider that got him noticed. Chelomei had worked longer on winged rocket designs what with his extensive cruise missile background.

Winged Soviet efforts only reached fruition with Buran--and small lifting body prototypes for Spiril. Chelomei just pushed a bit harder for the concept.

The Soyuz was meant to survive a trip from the moon. Bulk the heat shield back up--and the R-7 launched Soyuz could return from the moon. The problem is that R-7 was to weak to send it to the moon. Only UR-500 could do that with a rump Soyuz/ZOND.

The Chinese look to be able to put a whole Shenzhou up there with future Long March designs. That also puts the kibosh on some of their winged ambitions, sadly.

Nicolas
2005-Jul-26, 08:35 PM
Some remarks:

if soyuz is launched from Kourou, that doesn't necessarily mean Baikonour will be abandoned, right? Other craft are launnched from Baikonour as well, and Soyuz could be launched from 2 places if they wanted to.

Furthermore the Soyuz launcher (not the spacecraft) has its own name, but I'd have to look that one up. That name is rarely used though.

publiusr
2005-Jul-26, 08:52 PM
It is called the Soyuz launch vehicle. Alternate names are Semyorka (little-seven) Molniya (the version that blew up recently), etc. Each one is a bit different--but all are based on the R-7 ICBM--not only the worlds first ICBM--but the largest EVER actually fitted with a nuke. UR-500 was to be a super-ICBM--but was never fitted with the 100-150 megaton super H Bomb/Warhead..

They will keep Baikonur--or so a recent agreement states. But they have to pay Kazakhs to use their own facilities which is a huge drain. I think there are better relations now.

Russia also has new leadership in space--and the primer Minister of India is a rocket man himself--thus the great advocacy for the GSLV and its proposed 200 ton solid first stage.

The rest of the world is passing us standing still--and we still have the Delta II and ISS anchors weighing us down.

Nicolas
2005-Jul-31, 08:49 PM
"Semyorka" is the one I was looking for indeed.

Grand Vizier
2005-Aug-01, 12:46 AM
The rest of the world is passing us standing still--and we still have the Delta II and ISS anchors weighing us down.

I agree about ISS, but why pick on Delta 2? It's almost the US equivalent of Soyuz (except for not being man-rated), an old workhorse you can always fall back on. Further to that, I have seen no analysis anywhere that suggests that Delta 2 is holding the US back in space. Shuttle/ISS, yes - everyone except NASA seems to agree with that being a boondoggle and a white elephant.

Delta 2 does a real job and it does it reliably.

publiusr
2005-Aug-03, 07:21 PM
Delta II became a crutch--being a lot like fiber to keep you regular. It was not even based on an ICBM but on an IRBM. You have a Pershing/Jupiter/Scud class Thor that was just stretched--and it still puts two tons less in orbit than 50 yr. old R-7. HLLV is the battered womens shelter--it means a new way of life--but a better way of life. Delta II is the familiar guy in the wife-beater shirt. He fastens you up in a small, cramped space--he limits where you can go and what you can do.

But it looks like the cops have finally shown up:

http://www.space.com/spacenews/050704_business_monday.html

Excerpt

Griffin said he told Lord that NASA would be willing to switch to the medium-lift variants of the EELVs to loft its science spacecraft “provided that there is not an undue financial penalty for NASA.”

That might spell the end of Boeing’s smaller but highly reliable Delta 2 rocket, which has served as NASA’s primary workhorse for the past decade or more. That vehicle is no longer in the Air Force’s plans.

Griffin called a switch to EELV “the most nascent of plans” noting that NASA still has about a dozen Delta 2 launches under contract.

A Defense Department official, who asked not to be identified by name, confirmed that Griffin and Lord had reached a tentative agreement on Delta 2 and said that the Air Force is not likely to stand in the way of NASA developing shuttle-derived launchers.


Bad Boys, Bad Boys--whatcha gonna do...

publiusr
2005-Aug-05, 07:26 PM
More on the Death of Delta II:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/421/1

"Above all for the people at the Pentagon, this “ceasefire” means encouraging NASA to give up on its traditional favorite, the Delta 2, in favor of the more expensive and capable EELVs. For many deep space missions this would mean more and better instrument packages and more propellant, which could in turn mean better overall scientific return on investment. Smaller missions could still be flown on Orbital Sciences Corporation’s Taurus or Pegasus launchers or on SpaceX’s Falcon 1 and 5, but the Delta 2, which has been the space agency’s workhorse, will be put out to pasture."

:D

Don't get mad...the latest Mars mission will ride Atlas Centaur--the first NASA probe to use that rocket since 1978. If you will recall--they were able to put extra propellant in MRO due to greater lift capability.

I'd love to have the Delta II tooling so I could stomp on it and throw it in the river.

The author of the linked to article did botch it once:

If they decided to build a SDLV with a side-mounted pod that fits where the shuttle orbiter is now attached, they could have something operational much sooner and with a lot less investment, but only the “stick” would give them the long-term very heavy-lift capacity they will need to economically lift the equipment needed for a permanent Moon base.

The in line HLLV is Magnum/Ares whatever. The LEO-only CEV-atop-SRB is the stick--not HLLV.

Some nice work on HLLV and the stick is seen here if you scroll down:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1055

One drawing doesn't make sense:
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/cev.16.jpg

There the aft interstage is behind the SSME. It looks to me like the aft interstage would be behind the aft skirt--with the narrow end tapering into the thrust structure with the SSME coming last.

Oh well--maybe it's supposed to be a shroud. We need better art from Frassanito & Asc.


cool:
http://www.lunadude.com/images-pfolio/l_ashuttle-02.jpg
http://www.lunadude.com/images-pfolio/l_davis-ashuttle.jpg

publiusr
2005-Aug-10, 07:37 PM
It seems the news concerning the private $100 million trip to the mon would require a full Soyuz to dock with a booster--launched from Proton perhaps.

For the guy that was looking for Soyuz information - I just stumbled on this
site. It has some very nice graphics.
>
http://www.marscenter.it/eng/veicolicapsulesoyuz.htm
http://www.myspacemuseum.com/




Yet more on the heavy lift front:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/050803_shuttle-derived_cev.html
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/ilc-3.cargo.med.jpg
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/ilc.chart.med.jpg
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/esmd.study.lrg.jpg
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/esmd.evolution.lrg.jpg
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1057

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/TableOfContents.cfm


Some Discovery pics

http://www.up-ship.com/apr/extras/STS114/STS114.htm


Subject: Re: In-Line Payload Cradle idea for lifting 6 Shuttle payloads at once
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inside_ksc/files/Shroud_Concept.jpg


See EVA Models (here in the USA - Colorado):
http://members.aol.com/ccspevam/cat.html
I think the Toy Cellar is long gone but CVI still appear to be in business and still produce the set at $12.98
>
>Try this link
>
http://www.cvi-insignia.com/other.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/08/08/atlas.tower.ap/index.html

>Here's a document from the NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center in 1962.
>It reports on early cooperation among European nations in space
>exploration. There are some nice diagrams in this document of the Blue
>Streak rocket and its engines.
>
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670082526_1967082526.pdf
>
http://tinyurl.com/avs94

Enjoy the links!


As for the Delta II, it looks as if we won't be lighting-up to many more of those [i]100's lengths Thors with the nice white filter on top. Each of these cancer sticks just add up to give you the Goldin Era Stagnation tumors that turn malignant really fast.

Griffin's HLLV therapy is just what the Doctor ordered.

Doodler
2005-Aug-10, 08:00 PM
Actually, publiusr has a point, even though I'm seeing some echos of his heavy lift rants. Reliance on the Delta II has put mission planners into a "build the mission to suit the booster" mindset as a opposed to the better-for-science, "select the best booster to suit the mission". Too many times we've heard the arguement that a worthwhile experiment was trimmed off a mission because it exceeded the mass restriction of the booster.

Yes, having a solid workhorse booster is great, but it gets to be like the shuttle is for manned spaceflight. We use it because we have it, not because its the best piece of equipment for the job.

publiusr
2005-Aug-10, 09:13 PM
Exactly. We are seeing NASA ween itself of Delta II even now with MRO.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Sep-22, 08:44 PM
The U.S. Senate approved Sept. 21 a bill that would clear the way for NASA to buy the Russian Soyuz vehicles
http://www.space.com/news/050921_senate_soyuz.html
Senate Clears NASA to Buy Russian Spaceships

publiusr
2005-Sep-23, 07:55 PM
Good news at last. Iran-prolif needed to be kicked to the curb. If you want sanctions, put them on something besides the eternal whipping boy of politicians--spaceflight.

boppa
2005-Sep-23, 08:20 PM
Australia have a few abandoned places, the Woomera site has not launched anything since 1971.
ummm it might not have launched any nasa rockets since then-but it is still an active launch site for test rockets(and even very keen amatuers once a year) with fully operational tracking radar etc still online last i heard(2 years ago)

google scramjet and woomera ;-)
the one nasa was still saying it couldnt be done yet..and two adelaide guys basically built one in their garage..

in best homer voice... DOH

edit to add


Scramjet test on the launchpad, ready for take-off

Published: 27 July 2002

http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=3404



The program involves taking the scramjet engine to a design speed of Mach 7.6 by a Terrier Orion rocket. The rocket and payload will reach an altitude of 314km before the rocket is configured to fly in a new trajectory pointing the payload back down to earth. The flight experiment will take place within only the last few seconds of the flight, lasting almost 10 minutes. The rocket is intended to impact 371km downrange of the launch site.


sounds like a launch to me ;-)

or a really really big slingshot hehe

publiusr
2005-Sep-23, 08:41 PM
It might as well be a slingshot. Those scram jets are just toys so they can refine the design--and build other little surfboard sized boilerplates to launch atop other sounding rockets. The biggest thing they launched was that last Wresat/ Redstone--and that was a LONG time ago.

Let them put 50 tons up in LEO and I'll call it a launch site.

boppa
2005-Sep-23, 09:09 PM
Let them put 50 tons up in LEO and I'll call it a launch site.


so whats the cutoff limit then?

its certainly not as Manchurian Taikonaut said...the Woomera site has not launched anything since 1971.

it most certainly has `launched' unless you have a new defination of a `rocket'

;-) and :-O

(btw at 314km its DEFINATELY acheived leo by any defination ive been able t find... )

eg
low Earth orbit (LEO)



Definitions vary. According to some, LEO includes orbits having apogees (high points) and perigees (low points) between about 100 km and 1,500 km. Others extend that range up to 2,000 or

3,000 km. In some cases, the distinction between LEO and MEO (medium Earth orbit) is dropped and LEO is considered to be any orbit below geosynchronous altitude. The majority of all satellites, as well as the Space Shuttle and International Space Station, operate from LEO.

from http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/LEO.html

but then afaik the russians also havent put a single payload of more than 20tonnes into orbit either so if im right about that then they also havent lanched a real rocket yet either

( :-P)

(just kidding but developing the worlds first(publicially acknowledged) operational scramjet on a nonexistant (well `disused') rocket range when according to some its not even a `launch site anyway'-by a pair of ameteur rocket enthusists..)


methinks the greeneyed monster rears its ugly head-just a bit


edit to add `' around disused as ive already mentioned it most certainly isnt disused and esp not since 71...

boppa
2005-Sep-23, 09:30 PM
Scientists from the University of Queensland successfully test a scramjet at Woomera in 2002, the first time that such an engine had been tested in flight conditions. - Reuters, Los Angeles Times

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/28/1080412234106.html?from=storyrhs

i had second thoughts about first flight of the scramjet-but i did remember the whoohar about it

yup not all the braincells are dead yet.. ;-)

publiusr
2005-Sep-29, 05:44 PM
You really need full scale--esp if you want active cooling. Energia could side mount a near orbiter sized hypersonic boilerplate--for some prolonged test of a full-scale airframe. X-43 proved little.

If you drop an ant--it doesn't break.

If you drop me--I do break. Different scales are key. Just because a near-ingot construction X-43 worked proves nothing.

Launch window
2005-Oct-01, 11:11 PM
India joins EU Galileo club
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=12748

publiusr
2005-Oct-05, 06:22 PM
I can't wait to see their uprated GSLV II. It will have a 200 ton solid first stage. The world is passing us.

Launch window
2005-Nov-25, 11:32 AM
Russian-French space project: vehicle tests continue
The Central Specialized Design Bureau Progress has prepared a second experimental Soyuz-2 launch vehicle. The modernized model has been developed especially for the Russian-French Soyuz-Kourou project, which will allow Russia to keep its position on the market of commercial launches and make $240 million a year at the very least.
According to Boris Melioransky, the bureau's first deputy general director, the rocket will be sent to the Plesetsk Space Center to undergo tests before the end of the year. The first experimental launch of the Soyuz-2 took place at the end of 2004.
The modernized rocket will cost approximately $5 million more than its predecessor, or about $40 million. The increase is due to the installation of a new Russian control system (the Soyuz craft had Ukrainian systems) and a new third-stage engine. The new engine will increase orbital payload by 15%.
"This is the continuation of the policy designed to minimize dependence on Ukraine in the defense sector," a source in the space industry said.
Under the Soyuz-Kourou project, the space center in Kourou, French Guiana (northeastern coast of South America) will be launching 60 Soyuz-2 spacecraft (three to four a year) over a period of 15 years. Russian revenues will amount to nearly $2.5 billion.
Additionally, the Soyuz-2 will be the main launch vehicle for the International Space Station program. Six out of 10 annual launches under the Federal Space Program are for the ISS. The United States will pay for two launches a year; it will be cheaper to pay Russia $80 million for two Soyuz craft than spend hundreds of millions on shuttle missions.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20051117/42123822.html

Arianespace CEO stresses importance of govt in the development of the space industry
http://www.indiantelevision.com/headlines/y2k5/oct/oct287.htm
A paper on the service introduction of Arianespace's Ariane 5 ECA heavy-lift launcher was included in the technical session. The paper, presented by Arianespace's Laurent Jourdainne, also covered the upcoming phase-in of the Soyuz and Vega launchers at Europe's Spaceport in French Guiana, which - together with Ariane 5 - will offer a family of vehicles capable of carrying "any payload to any orbit, any time."

publiusr
2005-Dec-01, 11:38 PM
That will be a world class spaceport--and how! Now for some bigger rockets.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/500/1 Ariane 6

Launch window
2005-Dec-19, 02:42 AM
Construction of infrastructure for launches of Souyz spacecraft from the Kourou space center in French Guiana will start in December and are expected to be completed in July 2008, the French Space Agency (CNES) said Monday.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20051212/42453203.html
Construction for Soyuz launches in Guiana to start in December

Officials are setting the course for Europe's future in space at a high-level meeting in Berlin, Germany, on Monday and Tuesday. Key issues up for debate include whether Europe should cooperate with Russia on a new spaceship to replace the Soyuz and whether it should use only European launchers for its missions.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8420
The programmes to be voted on include whether to fund a two-year study costing about €50 million ($59 million) into the preliminary designs for a Russian spaceship called Kliper. This would replace the Soyuz spacecraft, which is currently used to ferry astronauts to the International Space Station, and would guarantee Europe independent access to space.

Officials will also vote on a resolution to use only European launchers for its space missions rather than rockets from Russia or other countries, which might be cheaper. ESA is considering spending €1.1 billion ($1.3 billion) on programmes to develop the French-built Ariane rockets and a new Italian rocket called Vega, as well as its launch facility in Kourou, French Guiana.



another topic
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=3177

publiusr
2005-Dec-21, 10:21 PM
With R-7 already flying, all they need is the hydrogen upper stage and Kliper itself. That will require hydrogen and kerosene handling facilities at the pad.

Sov-Space
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?id=4154
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20051215/42504406.html
http://www.mcc.rsa.ru/progres_m55.htm
http://astro.zeto.czest.pl/

Launch window
2006-Jan-10, 08:59 AM
NASA Announces Expedition 13 Crew to ISS
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=-7899

2nd trial launch of Soyuz 2 rocket planned for 3rd quarter of 2006
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2757213&PageNum=0
... planned to launch Soyuz 2 from Plesetsk, and its modification, Soyuz ST, from the Kourou spaceport in French Guiana

Construction for Soyuz launches in Guiana to start in December
http://en.rian.ru/world/20051212/42453203.html

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1812755,00.html?maca=en-rss_english_top-388-rdf
"Based on performance," the ESA "has decided to consider Soyuz as a full member of the family of launchers for ESA missions," alongside Ariane and Vega rockets, Dordain said

Russia and the European Union have always considered each other strategic partners....
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=636909
...Plans to use the Kourou launch site in French Guiana for Soyuz space ships is an important part of these efforts. ...

Launch window
2006-Jan-19, 12:16 PM
Clipper Spacecraft Constructor To Be Announced In February
Moscow, Russia (SPX) Jan 18, 2006
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/Clipper_Spacecraft_Constructor_To_Be_Announced_In_ February_2006.html
The winner of a tender to build a new-generation spacecraft will be announced on February 18, the Russian Space Agency said Tuesday, reports RIA Novosti

publiusr
2006-Jan-25, 09:49 PM
Things are really moving.

Launch window
2006-Feb-11, 01:35 AM
Russia's Kliper Shuttle To Be Launched In 2015
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Russias_Kliper_Shuttle_To_Be_Launched_In_2015.html
RIA Novosti reports that the first unmanned flight of the Kliper has been set for 2012, and the first manned flight has been scheduled for 2013, according to Sevostyanov. The six-man craft will be able to double the current number of crewmembers being taken to the ISS.
The new shuttle has a number of advantages. For example, it will be equipped with an orbital transfer vehicle and a container with a capacity of 12 metric tons, compared with the Soyuz's two-ton capacity. This will cut transportation costs considerably, Sevastyanov said

RD-0124 firing tests on 27 December were “successful”, says François Barreau, launch-provider Starsem’s vice-president for the Soyuz programme in French Guiana.
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2006/01/31/Navigation/177/204435/September+date+set+for+new+Soyuz.html
The first -1b will use the existing S fairing, which is 3.71m (12.2ft) in diameter and 7.7m long, rather than the new, larger 4.11m-diameter, 11.4m-long ST payload fairing. The ST fairing will fly for the first time on a Soyuz 2-1a on 30 June, when it launches European meteorological satellite operator Eumetsat’s Metop spacecraft from Baikonur.

Launch window
2006-Feb-14, 03:58 AM
Centre Spatial Guyanais
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/kourou.htm
Soyuz at Kourou
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kourou.html

Launch window
2006-Feb-15, 02:28 AM
Arianespace and Roscosmos sign contract to kick off Soyuz operations phase at Guiana Space Center
http://eu.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=19000
Jean-Yves Le Gall, Chief Executive Officer of Arianespace, and Anatoly Perminov, Director General of the Russian space agency Roscosmos, today signed the supply contract for the first four Soyuz launch vehicles to be launched from the Guiana Space Center (Kourou, French Guiana) starting in 2008. The ceremony in Moscow was attended by the French and Russian prime ministers.

Launch window
2006-Mar-03, 08:34 PM
The European Space Agency (ESA) so far is planning to use Russian Soyuz boosters to launch satellites from the Kourou cosmodrome in French Guiana, but not for manned flights.
However, “never say never,” ESA Director General Jean-Jacques Dordain told a press conference in the John Kennedy Space center on Cape Canaveral on Thursday.
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=3871608&PageNum=0
He said ESA so far has no plans to launch manned spacecraft from Kourou.
Together with the Russian Space Agency ESA is currently creating a launching pad for Soyuz on Kourou, but “the talk is only about satellite launches”, Dordain said.

French website
http://www.cnes.fr/html/_3838_3842_3882_.php
Le lanceur SOYOUZ 2

Future ESA spacecraft and the FLPP
http://www.flashespace.com/html/esa.htm
Programme préparatoire des lanceurs futurs de l'ESA

After this they might invest in Ariane-VI or Ariane-6, it would be good for them to build an R-56 type launch vehicle for space stations parts or the future Julesverne ATV platforms, this type of R56 class would see a 40 tonne payload into a 200 km polar orbit, or open-up Moon missions with 12 tonnes into lunar orbit
ESA's Future Launcher Preparatory Programme (FLPP) is focusing on the preparation of a Next Generation Launcher (NGL)to be operational around 2020
What kind of future launcher might they have ?
There was talk of an Ariane6 but the Ariane-M plan would put 100 tons in LEO or a 40 ton payload is what it could take to Mars.

publiusr
2006-Mar-08, 10:30 PM
It looks more like Oural for now. Ariane -M is what I'd like to see, though.

Ariane ^ might be a retreat to EELV class Kerosene boosters with flyback RD-180s.

Launch window
2006-Mar-24, 08:30 PM
Arianespace and Roscosmos
http://www.wirelessinsightasia.com/article.asp?id=523

Looks like they will be thinking of doing a heavy lift and they will have Italy to launch small payloads

Old article
http://www.noticias.info/archivo/2005/200503/20050316/20050316_52576.shtm
Vega, comparatively small at only 30 m compared to the 53 m Ariane 5 ECA, will be capable of placing payloads weighing from 300 to 2000 kg into the polar and low-Earth orbits used for many scientific and Earth observation missions. This should enable it to play a significant role in the global market for launching small satellites.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2006-Mar-25, 12:04 AM
Things are really moving.

Soyuz Guiana Space Center User's Manual
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part1.pdf
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part2.pdf
parts 1 & 2

Launch window
2006-Mar-26, 11:42 PM
Soyuz Guiana Space Center User's Manual
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part1.pdf
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part2.pdf
parts 1 & 2

FLPP and the Next Generation Launcher ( NGL )
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_Home/SEMNCI1PGQD_1.html

Manchurian Taikonaut
2006-Mar-28, 02:31 PM
US Army colonel and NASA astronaut Jeffrey Williams acknowledged the need for the continued role the Russian Soyuz spacecraft will have in transporting Americans to the International Space Station (ISS), despite the imminent return to flight of the Space Shuttle.
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?id=4397
Williams himself is preparing to blast off on the veteran Russian transport from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, early Thursday morning, for a six month stay on the ISS.

Soyuz LV info
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/russia/soyuz.htm

pics of the Soyuz in Kourou
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2871&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Launch window
2006-Mar-29, 11:17 AM
more on potential collaboration
http://europa.eu.int/comm/space/news/article_4029_en.html

I wonder if the Oural will get built ?

( launcher design like Ariane-6 or Angara )

Nicolas
2006-Mar-29, 02:23 PM
“We are working with ESA on the Clipper project on a regular basis. We know that the US is working on similar spacecraft and we believe history has shown it is necessary to have two systems available for space exploration.”

Preventing the Shuttle impasse is a good point on the agenda indeed :). Imagine what would have happened to the ISS without manned soyuz craft.

publiusr
2006-Mar-30, 08:05 PM
Good point.

Launch window
2006-Apr-07, 05:34 AM
Soyuz Guiana Space Center User's Manual
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part1.pdf
http://www.arianespace.com/site/documents/Soyuz_Users_Manual_Part2.pdf
parts 1 & 2

very big files ! great info


Here is some more news:

On Wednesday, specialists of Roskosmos successfully conducted ‘fire’ tests of the unit of the third stage of Stage 1b carrier rocket Soyuz-2 on bench of t research Institute of Chemical Engineering,” he told reporters on Thursday.
The goal of the tests is to confirm serviceability of engines and several systems, and of correctness of design solutions.
The successful tests are a “key event for making a decision on the beginning of flight test of the Stage 1 b carrier rocket Soyuz-2 with the launch of the French spacecraft Corot”, Davidenko said.
The Soyuz 2 rocket that is being manufactured in Russia is permanently modernized.
The Stage1b rocket was first test-launched from Russia’s northern cosmodrome Plesetsk in November 2004.
http://www.tass.ru/eng/level2.html?NewsID=5899703&PageNum=0
The carrier rocket with the European satellite Metop is to blast off from the Baikonur cosmodrome in this year’s June.

The first launch of the Stage 1b Soyuz is planned for the second half of 2006.

The further plan is to manufacture the carrier rocket Soyuz-ST that will be launched from the Kourou cosmodrome in French Guiana.

Nicolas
2006-Apr-07, 07:35 AM
"soyuz 2 rocket"
Is that the soyuz as we know it (R7) with some updates, or a completely different launcher than the R7 soyuz launcher?

Edit: It's hard to google info with such a name :). From waht it appears to me, Soyuz 2 made a test flight but is still in development. On the outside, it looks very much as the old Soyuz, but it's internals have been updated. The Soyuz 2 appears to be white instead of dark green (up to now at least).

soyuz 2 test (http://www.universetoday.com/am/uploads/2004-1109soyuz-full.jpg)


NOt to be confused with the Soyuz TMA-2 spacecraft or the Soyuz 2 mission :D.

Codename for the Soyuz 2 launcher appears to be "Rus". I don't know whether this holds only for cargo launches or for all launches.

publiusr
2006-Apr-12, 09:11 PM
It is still an R-7 iteration. The biggest change to R-7 will come from the Onega/Yamal booster:

http://www.space.com/news/ap_060412_russia_moon.html

This will pull it just even with the current Shenzhou boosters--or perhaps just a bit ahead of the current Long March line of LVs.

You heard me.

LM is superior to R-7--but still behind UR-500 (which uses hypergolics same as the current LMs)

What makes me pull my hair out is how the Chinese want to scrap their whole hypergolic fleet to go with all kerolox/hydrolox systems.

That needs to wait, with RD-270 based R-56 type LMs coming next. But that is the Glushko in me speaking.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2006-Jun-09, 09:51 AM
Discovery, competitiveness and European identity at the Berlin Air and Space show

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMOZ09ATME_Benefits_0.html

The exhibition starts with an overview of Europe’s access to space - the successful Ariane 5, and the future launchers to be used from Europe’s Spaceport in French Guiana - Vega and Soyuz.

Next is Europe’s contribution to the International Space Station (ISS) – the recently completed Columbus module and the Automatic Transfer Vehicle (ATV).

Launch window
2006-Aug-06, 03:28 PM
ESA, together with the British National Space Center and the U.K. space industry, is exhibiting in the International Space Pavilion
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/A_Journey_Of_Space_Discovery_At_The_Farnborough_In ternational_Air_Show_999.html
Still other exhibits feature Europe's autonomous space transportation system, including the heavy launcher Ariane 5, ESA's new launcher Vega for placing small satellites into space, and cooperation with Russia on the medium-size Soyuz launcher, soon to be exploited from Europe's Spaceport at Kourou, in French Guiana.

Launch window
2006-Sep-18, 04:27 PM
Russia, EU Partners In New Space Programs
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=86d31829-91e9-43f1-93ae-7d93a03b5962
The European Space Agency (ESA) and the Russian Federal Space Agency (ROSCOSMOS) are building a launch pad for Russia's Soyuz-2 rockets at the ESA's Kourou space center in French Guiana.
According to an article published by RIA Novosti, the agencies are calling the estimated $1.3 billion program Project Volga, and it's an ambitious joint venture that will eventually involve seven different agencies in a wide-ranging partnership between Russia and the European Union.

Launch window
2007-Feb-27, 01:44 PM
Construction Of Soyuz Launch Base In French Guiana Begins
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Construction_Of_Soyuz_Launch_Base_In_French_Guiana _Begins_999.html

Launch window
2007-Jul-15, 10:37 AM
Soyuz with electric thrust could rival Proton (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/07/09/215338/soyuz-with-electric-thrust-could-rival-proton.html)
Existing plasma thruster technology could more than double the Soyuz 2-1b's payload capacity to geostationary orbit (GEO), say Russian researchers.

...A launch from the European Space Agency's French Guiana spaceport could lift almost 3,000kg into GEO over 180 days. Soyuz rockets with chemical engines only are expected to launch from French Guiana in 2009...

publiusr
2007-Jul-21, 07:24 PM
The Kazakhs should be nervous. If I were the Russians, I'd make my last launch an Orion nuclear drive, and blow Baikonur away on ascent and see what the Kazakhs think of that.

Zachary
2007-Jul-21, 09:49 PM
The Kazakhs should be nervous. If I were the Russians, I'd make my last launch an Orion nuclear drive, and blow Baikonur away on ascent and see what the Kazakhs think of that.

!!!

Launch window
2007-Oct-06, 03:06 AM
Russia to Explore Venus Together with Europe
http://www.russia-ic.com/news/show/4857/

The spaceship will reach expected flight trajectory by means of Russian carrier vehicle Soyuz-ST, launched from the Kuru launching site in the French Guiana.

publiusr
2007-Oct-12, 06:32 PM
I can't wait

Launch window
2009-Jun-25, 02:05 PM
Building the Soyuz launch facility at Europe’s Spaceport
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMO230P0WF_index_0.html
– part two
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM6430P0WF_index_0.html