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aporetic_r
2005-Sep-21, 09:27 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

Acupuncture for infertility:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154472,00.html

According to this pretty quacky article acupuncture may or may not help treat infertility. Enjoy.

jkmccrann
2006-Jan-08, 06:56 PM
Well, that is indeed bizarre. I think if you talk to the right person you'll find that acupuncture can cure just about anything. One of my neighbours gets acupuncture for depression I think. Kinda strange, because the sight of a needle often induces a type of depression in me.

snarkophilus
2006-Jan-09, 04:01 AM
Well, that is indeed bizarre. I think if you talk to the right person you'll find that acupuncture can cure just about anything. One of my neighbours gets acupuncture for depression I think. Kinda strange, because the sight of a needle often induces a type of depression in me.

And, just before the needle penetrates the skin, it induces a depression in the patient. ;)

parallaxicality
2006-Jan-09, 11:33 AM
My mother is a trainee acupuncturist, so I have to tread carefully around the subject, but on the whole I don't mind it as long as it doesn't try to pretend it's based on scientific principles, like when people electrify the needles.

Wolverine
2006-Jan-09, 11:36 AM
*Cough (http://www.skepdic.com/acupunc.html)*.

grant hutchison
2006-Jan-09, 12:22 PM
Acupuncture certainly induces physiological changes: modulation of endogenous opioids and serotonin, maybe some "pain gating" in the spinal cord. One of the difficulties in researching this is the problem of creating a convincing "placebo acupuncture"; another is that acupuncture enthusiasts seem to be rather bad at conducting clinical trials.

The Cochrane Reviews in medicine are well-respected methodological surveys of the medical literature in a particular topic. The reviews addressing acupuncture generally conclude that the evidence is very poor: depression, asthma and smoking cessation fall into this category. I know of two Cochrane Reviews that support acupuncture use in specific conditions: chronic back pain, and nausea and vomiting after anaesthesia and surgery.

I've had acupuncture, and I've undergone hypnosis, and in both I can report reaching a warmly suggestible state that might explain the many, many anecdotal reports of benefit. In the acupuncture case, I specifically noticed that I was still aware of my pain, but I cared less about it.
As to infertility, I can imagine a couple of mechanisms (relaxation, neurohumoral modulation) that might allow it to improve a woman's chance of conceiving in a particular cycle of IVF. Whether these are conditions uniquely achievable by acupuncture is another matter.

Grant Hutchison

Ken G
2006-Jan-09, 05:57 PM
Yes, I think the main problem with alternative medicine is not that it never works, it's that it's very badly measured as to when it helps, when it hurts, and when it is just a placebo (which itself may have some benefits under the right conditions).

NEOWatcher
2006-Jul-07, 03:59 PM
And another slant on the acupuncture scene
Loose weight with an Ear staple (http://www.newsnet5.com/health/9480080/detail.html)

And ear staple patient Robin Johnson said she has lost 32 pounds in the six months she's had the staple in her ear.
Not exactly rapid results

getting a 20 percent infection rate
And it's safe?

Ilya
2006-Jul-07, 04:08 PM
One of the difficulties in researching this is the problem of creating a convincing "placebo acupuncture"
Not necessarily. Acupuncture needles are supposed to work only if inserted very precisely at specific nerve clusters. Inserting them NOT in those points qualifies as "placebo acupuncture."

Swift
2006-Jul-07, 05:21 PM
And another slant on the acupuncture scene
Loose weight with an Ear staple (http://www.newsnet5.com/health/9480080/detail.html)

And ear staple patient Robin Johnson said she has lost 32 pounds in the six months she's had the staple in her ear.
Not exactly rapid results

getting a 20 percent infection rate
And it's safe?
Sure, that makes perfect sense. You get some severe infection, it spreads beyond your ear to other parts of your body, and you lose weight from fighting the disease. Food poisoning works well too.
:p

Hank Freid
2008-Apr-11, 06:58 AM
Well, that is indeed bizarre. I think if you talk to the right person you'll find that acupuncture can cure just about anything. One of my neighbours gets acupuncture for depression I think. Kinda strange, because the sight of a needle often induces a type of depression in me.


i studied all the topic and found the above answer in its best health. acupuncture for depression does not mean to load on others.. hope you have got the idea.

:wall: :boohoo:

Jens
2008-Apr-11, 08:20 AM
The Cochrane Reviews in medicine are well-respected methodological surveys of the medical literature in a particular topic. The reviews addressing acupuncture generally conclude that the evidence is very poor: depression, asthma and smoking cessation fall into this category. I know of two Cochrane Reviews that support acupuncture use in specific conditions: chronic back pain, and nausea and vomiting after anaesthesia and surgery.


I think, though, that if acupuncture is effective in chronic back pain, it would also have some effect on depression, because I'm pretty sure that chronic pain can be part of the etiology of depression. Though depression is difficult anyway, because the placebo effect is very strong.

Jens
2008-Apr-11, 08:23 AM
...another is that acupuncture enthusiasts seem to be rather bad at conducting clinical trials.


That seems to be true. Two things, though. One is that people doing alternative medicine don't get funding so easily, which makes it difficult. The other is that for Cochrane reviews at least, I think the gold standard is considered to be the prospective double-blinded trial. And clearly it's difficult to do even single blinding with acupuncture...

Ilya
2008-Apr-11, 04:57 PM
And clearly it's difficult to do even single blinding with acupuncture...

Not at all. Take two sets of nurses, none of them trained in acupuncture. Teach them how to insert the needles, but nothing else. Give one set of nurses the (presumably) correct map of nerve cluster insertion points, and give the other a map with randomly selected insertion points. Neither the nurses nor the patients know who has the correct map. You have a double-blind trial.

sarongsong
2008-Apr-15, 04:22 PM
Must be something to it; my HMO (HealthNet) includes acupuncture visits. :)

Fadingstar
2008-Apr-15, 04:34 PM
I've always felt it must be like getting into a really hot bath!

Ow-Ow-Ow-Ow-EEEkkkk-Ahhhhh...

Swift
2008-Apr-15, 05:09 PM
I've always felt it must be like getting into a really hot bath!

Ow-Ow-Ow-Ow-EEEkkkk-Ahhhhh...
Sort of the "banging your head against the wall because it feels so good when you stop" school of medicine. :think:

Stealth_Salmon
2008-Apr-15, 10:14 PM
Most of the population of my hometown are hippies, predominantly of the shanti genus. Meaning that I get bombarded by alternative medicine junk all the time. Fore most of which is acupuncture. I've been trying, as of yet unsuccessfully, to lead a private campaign to educate the hippies in the merits of actual medicine. I guess Zefat is doomed.

Trebuchet
2008-Apr-16, 02:07 AM
Must be something to it; my HMO (HealthNet) includes acupuncture visits. :)

Wrong smiley, I'd say. How about :liar:or :whistle:or :think: or :rolleyes: or :evil:?

sarongsong
2008-Apr-16, 03:25 AM
Wrong smiley, I'd say. How about :liar: ...My HMO is lying?

Stealth_Salmon
2008-Apr-16, 03:03 PM
Most probably

Trebuchet
2008-Apr-16, 03:46 PM
My HMO is lying?

About whether they reduce the quality of your medical care in order to control costs, quite possibly. About acupuncture, they're likely just going with what's popular.

What's annoying is that acupuncture and other forms of CAM are being added to coverage due to popular demand, driving up the overall cost of care and driving some HMO's and insurance companies to deny needed treatment in the name of saving money.

NEOWatcher
2008-Apr-16, 04:43 PM
About whether they reduce the quality of your medical care in order to control costs, quite possibly. About acupuncture, they're likely just going with what's popular...
Uh; maybe. But, I think another factor here is the placebo effect.

If enough patients think it works, and keeps them from having more expensive scans and surgeries, then they are keeping the costs down.

sarongsong
2008-Apr-16, 08:00 PM
...About acupuncture, they're likely just going with what's popular.Federally qualified HMOs cannot exclude acupuncture or chiropractic services, according to my HealthNet rep.

Trebuchet
2008-Apr-16, 08:37 PM
Federally qualified HMOs cannot exclude acupuncture or chiropractic services, according to my HealthNet rep.

Worse yet!

sarongsong
2008-Apr-16, 09:00 PM
Oh, it gets better---my medical plan also offers massage therapy, vision/dental coverage and discounted membership in fitness clubs---all for $15/month total for the whole policy. :)

Gillianren
2008-Apr-16, 11:54 PM
Vision/dental doesn't sound like it's relevant to a discussion of acupuncture; we have plenty of clinical trials that glasses work.

As for massage therapy . . . ye Gods, I wish my insurance covered that!

NEOWatcher
2008-Apr-17, 01:00 PM
Oh, it gets better---my medical plan also offers massage therapy, vision/dental coverage and discounted membership in fitness clubs---all for $15/month total for the whole policy. :)
I'm not sure how your vision/dental are, but some are just discount plans (or portions of them), and those cost the insurance company nothing because it's a way for the participants to gain clients.
Plus; how much of your plan is costing the company?

Is the massage therapy in relation to medical ailments? Or does it get incorporated somehow into mental health.

sarongsong
2008-Apr-17, 06:04 PM
Haven't used the massage option yet, but assume it's for medical ailments. You're right about the dental/vision portions seeming discount plans. A friend is taking me to Mexico (50 miles away) later this year to meet her dentist who's saved her a small fortune and does excellent work, for some major work.
Back to acupuncture:
Several years ago, a dear friend returned from a night on the town (tequila!) and tripped over a chair upon returning home. She later awoke to a 24-hour migraine, loss of all feeling on one side of her body, and the onset of occasional gran mal seizures. After the AMA doctors did what they could, she was left crippled with migraine pain that wouldn't dissipate despite the drugs they gave her. Only cocaine or acupuncture could provide relief. Acupuncture is legal. She's fine today.

ravens_cry
2008-Apr-19, 04:23 AM
I remember reading an article in Discover magazine about a study the seemed to show that it didn't really matter where or how they placed the needles, the results were the same. They placed the needles both correctly in one group, according to conventional methods, and in correctly in another,but not telling the groups this, and both groups received the same benefit.

sarongsong
2008-Apr-19, 02:44 PM
I remember reading an article in Discover magazine about a study the seemed to show that it didn't really matter where or how they placed the needles, the results were the same...?
April 27, 2006
Placebo vs Placebo
THE STUDY: ...The purpose was to find out if doctors can manipulate the placebo effect. The National Institutes of Health ponied up $1,614,605 for the answer...133 subjects received acupuncture with trick needles whose tips retract so they don't penetrate the skin...
Discovery Magazine (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/placebo-placebo)Also:
September 1, 1998
Needles & Nerves...
Discovery Magazine (http://discovermagazine.com/1998/sep/needlesnerves1504/)

ravens_cry
2008-Apr-19, 05:22 PM
I will have to do some digging of my own, thanks sarongsong!