PDA

View Full Version : The Gay Helmsman



Maksutov
2005-Oct-28, 01:40 PM
George Takei has come out of the closet. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051028/ap_on_en_tv/people_george_takei) Casts a whole new light on those scenes from "The Naked Time" (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68674.html). To each his own, it would appear.

Doodler
2005-Oct-28, 01:59 PM
With sexuality moving out of the mainstream of "Oh my God" style announcements, I wonder how long it will be before the concept of "coming out of the closet" will be obsolete.

The shock value of this kinda thing's worn off a lot.

Faultline
2005-Oct-28, 02:08 PM
That makes me wonder. In the Star Trek Universe, Earth is often referred to as if it were Utopia. They've solved all the social problems that plagued the 21st Century and so on...

But you don't see any homosexuals (none that I recall seeing in any of the episodes). I understand that it is a touchy subject for a screenwriter to tackle, but does that imply that homosexuality is a problem that got "cured" by future social engineering?

I don't want this to get ugly, I know it is a sensitive subject and I am trying to treat it with dignity and poise.

Let me also be clear that I'm not talking about the actors, but the characters in the various shows. Were there any homosexuals in any of the episodes I missed and how was it treated?

pumpkinpie
2005-Oct-28, 02:12 PM
With sexuality moving out of the mainstream of "Oh my God" style announcements, I wonder how long it will be before the concept of "coming out of the closet" will be obsolete.

The shock value of this kinda thing's worn off a lot.

I can't wait until it is obsolete. It's so sad that he had to wait until he was 68 to be comfortable enough with society to reveal this.

Maksutov
2005-Oct-28, 02:16 PM
[edit]Let me also be clear that I'm not talking about the actors, but the characters in the various shows. Were there any homosexuals in any of the episodes I missed and how was it treated?This was treated to a certain extent in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode The Outcast (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68540.html). The overtones are pretty obvious.

Faultline
2005-Oct-28, 02:36 PM
I see the striking similarity to homosexuality in the plot synopsis. Not exactly the same thing, but close.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Oct-28, 02:54 PM
I once read that there was an episode of Star Trek -- Deep Space Nine which featured a same-sex couple. Can't confirm it, as I've never watched that show.

R.A.F.
2005-Oct-28, 03:02 PM
I understand that it is a touchy subject for a screenwriter to tackle, but does that imply that homosexuality is a problem that got "cured" by future social engineering?

That's assuming that homosexualty is actually some kind of "problem".

The only problem with homosexuality is "some folks" reaction to it.

ToSeek
2005-Oct-28, 03:03 PM
I once read that there was an episode of Star Trek -- Deep Space Nine which featured a same-sex couple. Can't confirm it, as I've never watched that show.

"Rejoined." (http://stds9.epguides.info/?ID=78)

I think there's also an episode of Next Gen where a character falls for a Trill who's then rehosted in a body of the opposite sex.

Faultline
2005-Oct-28, 03:35 PM
Forgive me, I never intended to describe homosexuality as a problem. I wondered if the attitude used by the screenwriters left room to ponder if it were a problem that is solved in the future.

I'm satisfied to find that it has been touched on in some episodes.

SolusLupus
2005-Oct-28, 03:45 PM
In the original Star Trek, I don't think that homosexuality was even on the minds of screenwriters.

Homosexuality DID become an issue later on, as screenwriters thought more and more on things in general in Deep Space Nine and The Next Generation, of course, but I doubt that it was really on their minds in the original series.

Of course, this is merely conjecture - I have no proof whatsoever.

Heh. In the original Star Trek, it was a "big thing" just having multinational characters starring.

Swift
2005-Oct-28, 04:16 PM
<snip>
Heh. In the original Star Trek, it was a "big thing" just having multinational characters starring.
It has been widely reported that the kiss between Uhura and Kirk (the ones where they are gladiatorial slaves) was the first interracial kiss on television.

SolusLupus
2005-Oct-28, 04:40 PM
It has been widely reported that the kiss between Uhura and Kirk (the ones where they are gladiatorial slaves) was the first interracial kiss on television.

*nodnods* Gotta love it.

I find it intriguing the ideals of Star Trek, the Utopian setting, and the ideas of "acceptance"... yet a man that starred in it had to wait until he was 68 to admit he's gay. It's pretty sad, to me...

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Oct-28, 06:27 PM
I don't think that it was (or will be) such a big deal in the future and hence that is why we didn't see it on the eps.- it's just an everyday part of life in the 24th century...(my theory).

Ever notice how on Star Trek...everything that was good/classic always came from the 20th century...you mean to tell me that they didn't write/perform good music in the 22nd century????

publiusr
2005-Oct-28, 06:53 PM
"Rejoined." (http://stds9.epguides.info/?ID=78)

I think there's also an episode of Next Gen where a character falls for a Trill who's then rehosted in a body of the opposite sex.

Yeah but those were nice looking ladies.

I can understand why men are attracted to women--or why women are attracted to women.

How anyone can be attracted to another man is beyond me.

We're ugly!

I've known about George for years. The biggest reason that men keep in the closet in Hollywood really has to do with keeping the male characters available to women. To make women think they might have a chance.

I really think that when Rock Hudson was out, a lot of women thought that there was something wrong with them "Don't you think I'm pretty?" They take it personally. If a Bond actor were gay, he might keep it in the closet just to keep women coming to the theatre, otherwise they say "he doesn't like girls" and stay home.

We all know that men want to see lesbians with each other more than anyone wants to see two ugly guys. Thats just how tinsletown works.

Of course, with the internet, each subcategory of...interest...has its followers.

The 'fluffy' thing with sex addicts wearing plushie costumes with holes cut out---eeew...that's just wrong. Now women wearing bunny tails--that's different!

Faultline
2005-Oct-28, 06:59 PM
I think this thread has left the path of tastefulness.

Gillianren
2005-Oct-28, 08:06 PM
My intial thought (other than "I gotta call my sister!"--she's bi) was, "Cool!"

Then I kept reading the article, and I understood why he didn't come out sooner.

The man was in an internment camp from ages 4-8. In other words, the US government locked him up because of an accident of his birth. I'm not here to get into a discussion of whether that event was right or wrong, but I'm sure we can all agree that it's a pretty traumatizing event. (For more information, I suggest Farewell to Manzanar, an autobiography of a child internee.)

Since my great-aunt was a lesbian and my sister's bi, I have no problems with the concept of homosexuality being genetic. Which means, to me at least, that George Takei is dealing with two accidents of birth. I think it's very reasonable of him to have emotional issues on the subject of coming out, especially given that people have suggested putting gay people into camps--and Fidel Castro actually did it.

Gullible Jones
2005-Oct-28, 08:24 PM
Publiusr: remember, men are ugly in your eyes. You know, sort of like how a space probe that you think is beautifully designed might look like an ugly piece of junk to someone who lacks an interest in science or engineering?

Candy
2005-Oct-28, 10:16 PM
I don't understand! George was gay? The Oriental Guy?

novaderrik
2005-Oct-28, 11:30 PM
hmm.. i always wondered why they showed his kid on the bridge of the Enterprise in that one movie (Generations, i think? on the Enterprise B), and Kirk commented on how little they knew about his personal life and that they had no idea he had a family and blah blah blah.. it's almost as if they made it a point of actually showing his kid and mentioned his wife and what not so as to say that he's "not that way".
or was that Chekov's kid? I'm thinking Sulu, but i haven't seen it for a while...
as for the gay lifestyle not only being accepted- but actually being commonplace- in the Star Trek universe, one need only look at the uniforms they made them wear and graceful designs of their ships to prove that point...

Musashi
2005-Oct-28, 11:56 PM
I don't understand! George was gay? The Oriental Guy?


Asian. People are Asian, objects are Oriental.

Candy
2005-Oct-29, 12:06 AM
I just don't think of asian people as gay. I just don't!

Draconis
2005-Oct-29, 12:41 AM
or was that Chekov's kid? I'm thinking Sulu, but i haven't seen it for a while...


Sulu. His daughter.

Gullible Jones
2005-Oct-29, 02:26 AM
I just don't think of asian people as gay. I just don't!

Well, some are.

Candy
2005-Oct-29, 02:37 AM
Well, some are.
I know. It's like you have to hit me with a frying pan to get me to see something sometimes.

Dark Helmet
2005-Oct-29, 03:53 AM
http://www.barbneal.com/GRAPHICS/sulu.gif
Didn't see that one coming...

Taks
2005-Oct-29, 05:37 AM
keep in mind, the concept of admitting homosexuality in the 60s was much different than today. attitudes have changed dramatically in the time since then, but his life view was formulated in a time when it was not OK to be different. gay or otherwise, actually. as he noted, it took working on a recent play to spur his decision... i.e. he may have stayed underground (for lack of a better word this late at night) till his death otherwise.

i remember when we found out rock was gay. astonishment. now it's no big deal, and i'm actually surprised this was worth a news article.

taks

Candy
2005-Oct-29, 05:44 AM
Why after all these years, suddenly decide to "out" yourself?
I mean, when I "out" myself, I think I will chose the age 100.

Taks
2005-Oct-29, 06:24 AM
based on the foot picture with tmosher, i did not think you would need "outing." :)

taks

Enzp
2005-Oct-29, 06:26 AM
So he's gay. What is wrong with being brightly colored and gleeful?

There was also the episode where Riker falls for this androgenous female on a lesbian planet. All goes well until she gets reprogrammed.

Publiusr, if we are so ugly, how do we attract women. COme to think of it, how DO we attract women?

Candy
2005-Oct-29, 06:30 AM
based on the foot picture with tmosher, i did not think you would need "outing." :)

taks
Oh, I'm gay. Gay means happy, right? ;)

Great, I started a new page!

Alasdhair
2005-Oct-29, 04:11 PM
"Rejoined." (http://stds9.epguides.info/?ID=78)

I think there's also an episode of Next Gen where a character falls for a Trill who's then rehosted in a body of the opposite sex.

That would beThe Host (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Host_(TNG_episode)) wherein Beverly Crusher falls for a Trill symbiont in a male body who gets rehosted in a female body at the end of the episode, rather taking the wind from the sails of the good doctor's ardour.

Perhaps a waste of an opportunity.

Being the first Trill story, they didn't have the dual names or competition for places backstory figured out, so the new host appeared more than somewhat vacant prior to joining....

eikep
2005-Oct-29, 11:25 PM
In the original Star Trek, I don't think that homosexuality was even on the minds of screenwriters.

Perhaps it wasn't on the mind of screenwriters, but it was certainly on the mind of a lof of Star Trek fans, as they created slash fan fiction as a genre. K/S depicted Kirk and Spock as a homsexual couple, often in graphic detail. Slash was written mostly by female fans of all sexual orientations. A friend of mine, who writes her doctoral thesis on gender roles in SF series of the 70s and 80s speculated that one of the reasons for (quote) "transversive writing and cross-gender identication .. [was] the absence of identificatory female characters in the Star Trek Universe of the seventies".

-- eike

ToSeek
2005-Oct-30, 02:33 AM
Perhaps it wasn't on the mind of screenwriters, but it was certainly on the mind of a lof of Star Trek fans, as they created slash fan fiction as a genre. K/S depicted Kirk and Spock as a homsexual couple, often in graphic detail. Slash was written mostly by female fans of all sexual orientations. A friend of mine, who writes her doctoral thesis on gender roles in SF series of the 70s and 80s speculated that one of the reasons for (quote) "transversive writing and cross-gender identication .. [was] the absence of identificatory female characters in the Star Trek Universe of the seventies".

-- eike

Has slash fanfic diminished any with the advent of stronger female characters? Last time I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), it seemed like still a big chunk of overall fanfic - heck, even in the early 90s, K/S still seemed like half of all Trek fanfic.

Daniel H.
2005-Oct-30, 03:25 AM
Has slash fanfic diminished any with the advent of stronger female characters? Last time I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), it seemed like still a big chunk of overall fanfic - heck, even in the early 90s, K/S still seemed like half of all Trek fanfic.

Well, I generally don't look at Trek fanfics so I can't tell you for sure about that, but in general, as far as I can tell, it unfortunatley hasn't.

hippietrekx
2005-Oct-30, 03:33 AM
Slash seems to be half of all fanfics, not just Trek. www.fanfiction.net (http://www.fanfiction.net) has litterly thousands of fanfictions, and by picking any series (be it comic, cartoon, videogame, etc.) and reading a few synopsises you can see that several writers tack on "M/M" and "F/F" onto the ends of the summaries.

--hipster

Taks
2005-Oct-30, 07:12 AM
COme to think of it, how DO we attract women?
by enlisting the services of...

THE HYPNOTOAD! ALL HAIL THE HYPNOTOAD!

taks

Taks
2005-Oct-30, 07:13 AM
Oh, I'm gay. Gay means happy, right? ;)yeah, sure... just, be careful when walking into gay bars. happiness may be the least of your discoveries that day.

taks

Count Zero
2005-Oct-30, 07:47 AM
Random thoughts:

- George Takei is gay? I can't tell you what a surprise this is not.

- There was an episode of DS9 in the 6th or 7th season where another changeling came to live on the station. Unlike Odo, he openly flaunted his shapeshifting ability. This made everyone uncomfortable, if not downright hostile. Odo cautioned him that people weren't ready for a "Changeling Pride Parade".

- I was once at a convention where somebody asked Jonathan Frakes (Riker) about the guest star in "The Outcast". He said that the actress did OK, but if they'd had any guts they would have cast a male actor in the role.

- At another convention, back when ST:TNG was new, someone singled-out Captain Picard and asked if they wouldn't have found a cure for baldness by the 24th century. The obvious rejoinder was, "What makes you think that baldness is a 'problem' that needs to be 'cured'?"

Maksutov
2005-Oct-30, 11:12 AM
[edit]There was also the episode where Riker falls for this androgenous female on a lesbian planet. All goes well until she gets reprogrammed.That sounds familiar. (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=588966&postcount=5)


Publiusr, if we are so ugly, how do we attract women. COme to think of it, how DO we attract women?Simple. Money and power.

eikep
2005-Oct-30, 11:23 AM
Has slash fanfic diminished any with the advent of stronger female characters?

I do not think there are many female characters in Star Trek that could take the place of Spock in romantic/sexual fiction written by women. Spock might have been a Vulcan, but he wasn't really 'alien' - he was close enough to the captain to make a relationship plausible and it seem it was easier to identify for female writers to identify with a white male than with the single black female.

Most of the "new" Star Trek women are, clearly, alien. Voyagers 7 of 9 is, even after she has been dismantled and refitted to look like a woman, not quite human - and her inital approach to sexuality (with Harry Kim) is as personal as the alleged anal probing done by "alien visitors" to earth. The fact that 7 of 9 is now some sort lesbian icon does probably not help with heterosexual women. Or take Dax - she/he changes gender with every new body and thus resembles uncomfortably a post-operative transsexual.

On the other end of the spectrum there are woman like Cpt. Janeway - as far as I can make out her idea of fun is a good cup of coffee, so it's hard to image her in a sexual adventure. Or Crusher - who would like to identify with a creature that spawned something like Wesley (anyway, I guess very few women want to mothers in their sexual daydreams. Of course being male I'm not much of an expert).

So I guess at least for white/hetereosexual woman fans slash is still a more appropriate outlet for their fantasies, plus it has the additional advantage that it is comparativly easy to write.

At least, this is my theory - I read slash only when I'm doing research for articles; personally I think it's quite boring and sometimes gross - but this is the heterosexual white male speaking who, for some unfathomably reason, is regarded the "normal" (last time I counted three quarters of the world population where either female or queer or chinese).

-- eike

Gillianren
2005-Oct-30, 07:40 PM
A shameful secret:

I once wrote a work of "slash" fiction: Mulder/Scully. But no, it was all the pair of them thinking what might happen, and they didn't get together (because it was set during an actual episode).

Anyway.

I never thought one way or another about George Takei's sexuality. Ergo, it was just as much a surprise to me as finding out Alan Alda's been married for something like 50 years was--I just hadn't known, and now, I do. And while Trek did have a lot of "message" episodes, particularly in Next Gen and beyond, they didn't ever have the courage of their convictions to have a regular character be gay or bi, and they sure as heck (unless it was TOS) wouldn't have been the first show to do so. (Soap, with the gay character of Jody Dallas played by Billy Crystal.) The thing is, Trekkies would've watched it anyway, so why not?

Enzp
2005-Oct-30, 08:01 PM
Sorry Mak, I don't always open bare links to see what they hold. I probably should do so more often.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Oct-31, 02:21 PM
Simple. Money and power.I think you overestimate the wealth and power of the average male.

Doodler
2005-Oct-31, 04:03 PM
Even though its in novels, and not necessarily canon, the character of Lieutenant Ethan Hawk was written into a few novels set before First Contact as a homosexual. The one that introduced this was the Section 31 novel set in TNG, a few others since then (and interestingly, TNG novels are starting to gel into a consistent timeline, regardless of author) have picked up the ball and run with it.

One review of the Section 31 novel applauded the introduction of that character facet because it did not making a huge production of it, jit was written as if it were a completely ordinary element of the character's story.

Gillianren
2005-Oct-31, 06:38 PM
Even though its in novels, and not necessarily canon, the character of Lieutenant Ethan Hawk was written into a few novels set before First Contact as a homosexual. The one that introduced this was the Section 31 novel set in TNG, a few others since then (and interestingly, TNG novels are starting to gel into a consistent timeline, regardless of author) have picked up the ball and run with it.

One review of the Section 31 novel applauded the introduction of that character facet because it did not making a huge production of it, jit was written as if it were a completely ordinary element of the character's story.

Yeah, but you know, there was a lot of show after First Contact, wasn't there? Not TNG, obviously, but DS9 and Voyager, right? Then again, you said "set before" and not "written before," and that does make a difference. I don't know. All I'm saying was that I don't think we would've needed the "message" episodes if there'd been recurring gay characters.

Doodler
2005-Oct-31, 07:02 PM
All things being equal, you are correct. However, when the various series' pantheons were laid out, they did what they could with what the times would let them. Gene Roddenberry fought tooth and nail to break through social stigmas of the 60's. A female first officer from "The Cage", an African American senior officer in the Original series and so on. TNG touched on gender identity with a role reversal episode where gender andrgyny was the norm, but I don't know that a homosexual character could have been manageable at the time. It could be the next breakthrough role for a series regular, or could have been, had B&B not thoroughly shredded the dead horse with Enterprise.

SolusLupus
2005-Oct-31, 07:07 PM
I agree that they did push the stigmas that existed "for the times". Though personally, I liked Enterprise. I just wish they had a bit more continuity.

I don't get why the majority of people hate Enterprise. One main complaint was that Enterprise was big on the sexiness and softcore porn.

The thing I have to ask is... did they watch the original Star Trek? That had a LOT of racie things for its time period! (I mean, we're talking about a time period where Jeannie from "I dream of Jeannie" showing off her belly button was considered nudity)

Daniel H.
2005-Nov-01, 02:44 AM
I agree that they did push the stigmas that existed "for the times". Though personally, I liked Enterprise. I just wish they had a bit more continuity.

I don't get why the majority of people hate Enterprise. One main complaint was that Enterprise was big on the sexiness and softcore porn.

The thing I have to ask is... did they watch the original Star Trek? That had a LOT of racie things for its time period! (I mean, we're talking about a time period where Jeannie from "I dream of Jeannie" showing off her belly button was considered nudity)

Most people don't like it because of the generally bad quality of the writing. All the things they didn't like about Voyager continued on into Enterprise. You got a flagrant disregard for previously written stuff which lead to the Ferengi and the Borg showing up, but those times didn't count as the "first time humans met them" because we forgot to get their name. You had the very poorly conceived and executed temporal cold war thing which they ended up pretty much abandoning. You didn't get episodes that really remembered that this was before the federation was founded until the fourth season when someone other than B&B took over. And then those two still managed to write the pretty poor final episode, which amounted to a slap in the face to the fans of the fourth season, and which was essentially half a TNG episode.

Stuff like that.

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-01, 02:48 AM
Well, I suppose I could see that (I only saw the first season, and I didn't mind that one), so I dunno. I just personally don't like the ones that go on about how women are "sex symbols" and such, and how it's "against Roddenberry's vision". Hell, it seemed that sexy women were a big part of his vision :P

Daniel H.
2005-Nov-01, 03:03 AM
Well, I suppose I could see that (I only saw the first season, and I didn't mind that one), so I dunno. I just personally don't like the ones that go on about how women are "sex symbols" and such, and how it's "against Roddenberry's vision". Hell, it seemed that sexy women were a big part of his vision :P

I haven't encountered many of those. Most people I've seen ranting don't like the poor writing. Though the people ranting about the sex symbols think do have a bit of a point. Did we really need a female Vulcan in a more or less skin tight suit? Or the female Borg in a similar getup for that matter? (Though with the Borg, I think more people complain about her suddenly becoming the solution to everything once she's introduced.)

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-01, 04:02 AM
No, not really, but then, did Roddenberry really need women dressed in such short skirts? Or a constant theme of sexual undertones? It was pretty racie for the time period, you have to remember.

Could they have changed that, and not gone the way of "sexy females"? Maybe so. But it does seem a Star Trek tradition, so calling it "distorting Roddenberry's mission" is kinda silly.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Nov-01, 01:48 PM
No, not really, but then, did Roddenberry really need women dressed in such short skirts?They were in fashion, back in the sixties. Revealing catsuits were not in fashion in the eighties, the nineties, or the noughties. Then again, people don't seem to complain about Deeana Troi's wardrobe...


It was pretty racie for the time period, you have to remember.The original Star Trek? I don't think so.

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-01, 02:13 PM
Well, when I watch the original Star Trek, I saw a lot of hotties being flaunted around. Every other episode seemed to involve a love story with Kirk, and a close-up of some woman's face with those sparkley things to hide any blemishes.

Maybe my entire memory of the entire original Star Trek series is wrong, though.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Nov-01, 02:24 PM
Well, when I watch the original Star Trek, I saw a lot of hotties being flaunted around. Every other episode seemed to involve a love story with Kirk, and a close-up of some woman's face with those sparkley things to hide any blemishes.Oh, definitely. I just wouldn't call that racy. It was standard fare in 'adventure' film and TV at the time (still is, as a matter of fact).
Barbarella... Now, that was racy. :)

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-01, 02:28 PM
Well, I meant "at the time". *Shrugs* Okay, maybe I'm wrong.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Nov-01, 03:31 PM
Well, I meant "at the time". *Shrugs* Okay, maybe I'm wrong.It's my impression that you would easily find racier stuff in motion pictures of the time (early sixties). Or in Playboy magazine. But perhaps I'm the one who's mistaken.

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-01, 05:03 PM
You'll always find racier stuff in Playboy. :P It's kinda based around that, and more. I'd have to watch a few of the old Sixties movies to really agree, but haven't television programs ALWAYS been less racy than what you see in movies? In a movie, you can have a character rattle off curse words like crazy, but they're bleeped out on a few television networks. In movies, you can have someone kill someone in a very messy and nasty way, but it'll be cut off when aired on a television network. And only on cable networks like HBO, can you have a show like Rome, which has a LOT of nudity scenes.

So television networks were always a bit less racy than a lot of movies, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I haven't actually seen many sixties movies, I think...

swansont
2005-Nov-01, 11:49 PM
It's my impression that you would easily find racier stuff in motion pictures of the time (early sixties). Or in Playboy magazine. But perhaps I'm the one who's mistaken.

Racy for TV, I think. In the contemporary show "I Dream of Jeannie" they wouldn't show Barbara Eden's navel. In "The Dick Van Dyke Show" from a few years earlier, Rob and Laura slept in separate beds.

Samara
2005-Nov-02, 12:29 AM
Well, I generally don't look at Trek fanfics so I can't tell you for sure about that, but in general, as far as I can tell, it unfortunatley hasn't.


Believe me, it hasn't. I have friends who are diehard slashers (they're more into anime though) I will actually admit, in fact, to reading some Harry Potter slash (Sirius/Lupin) It can be pretty cute if well written. However, if not well-written (and this goes for ALL fanfics not just slash)...eurg

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-02, 12:38 AM
However, if not well-written...

That goes for any story, period. I've been inspired to write stories after reading a few (and they were originals), just because they were SO horribly written, and I knew I could write them SO much better.

Daniel H.
2005-Nov-02, 01:19 AM
Believe me, it hasn't. I have friends who are diehard slashers (they're more into anime though) I will actually admit, in fact, to reading some Harry Potter slash (Sirius/Lupin) It can be pretty cute if well written. However, if not well-written (and this goes for ALL fanfics not just slash)...eurg

Oh, I know it hasn't, I was just using my observations on FF.net so say that trek in particular probably hasn't dropped off. Anyways, my problem with slash is that I don't think I've ever seen a decently written one. All that I've seen used either absurd, or character destroying setups that either made them utterly unrealistic, or made them so that the only thing in common with the characters being written about is the name. As you say this is something that goes for all fanfiction, but it seems to be a more prevalent problem in slash. Slash fiction has it's place in fanfiction, but I'd rather there be more canotonically homosexual characters for would be fanfiction authors to write about than to see them try and write ones portrayed as hetrosexual as homosexual.

Samara
2005-Nov-02, 02:28 AM
Oh, I know it hasn't, I was just using my observations on FF.net so say that trek in particular probably hasn't dropped off. Anyways, my problem with slash is that I don't think I've ever seen a decently written one. All that I've seen used either absurd, or character destroying setups that either made them utterly unrealistic, or made them so that the only thing in common with the characters being written about is the name. As you say this is something that goes for all fanfiction, but it seems to be a more prevalent problem in slash. Slash fiction has it's place in fanfiction, but I'd rather there be more canotonically homosexual characters for would be fanfiction authors to write about than to see them try and write ones portrayed as hetrosexual as homosexual.

I agree comepletely. However, good luck explaining that to fanfic writers. Many of them are so convinced that their pairing is perfect that they sacrifice everything - canon, logic, plotline - just to get their pair together. It's rather depressing.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2005-Nov-02, 03:17 AM
I agree comepletely. However, good luck explaining that to fanfic writers. Many of them are so convinced that their pairing is perfect that they sacrifice everything - canon, logic, plotline - just to get their pair together. It's rather depressing.
I Have a Friend, Who is TOTALLY Into, Buffy Slash, Typically, Xander/Spike.

This, Wouldn't Be a Problem, Except, they Usually Start Out, By Raping Each Other!!!!

:naughty:

Samara
2005-Nov-02, 03:24 AM
I Have a Friend, Who is TOTALLY Into, Buffy Slash, Typically, Xander/Spike.

This, Wouldn't Be a Problem, Except, they Usually Start Out, By Raping Each Other!!!!

:naughty:

I HATE RAPEFIC

I'm sorry but rape in fanfic is usually (badly) written in either to add TEH ANGST!!!! to a character's past or to (I don't know HOW this works but I guess writers don't follow earth logic) get two characters together. In either case, the characters never end up acting like a rape victim would act. It's a smack in the face to anyone who has been a victim of rape.

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-02, 01:39 PM
Samara, if you've studied people who have been raped, I wouldn't mind some of your input on a story idea of mine. It does involve a woman that was once raped, severely and by many people, and I wouldn't mind gaining a better understanding of the situation. (I'd rather do this via PM, though)

publiusr
2005-Nov-02, 08:15 PM
Publiusr, if we are so ugly, how do we attract women. COme to think of it, how DO we attract women?


Now that is a question that can have no answer. Spacecraft look cool--and may look ugly to a few--but I really don't get how anyone can be attracted to guys.

Its a wonder children are born at all.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2005-Nov-02, 08:21 PM
Now that is a question that can have no answer. Spacecraft look cool--and may look ugly to a few--but I really don't get how anyone can be attracted to guys.

Its a wonder children are born at all.
Hmmm ...

I'm JUST Talented ....

:p

Swift
2005-Nov-02, 09:03 PM
Samara, if you've studied people who have been raped, I wouldn't mind some of your input on a story idea of mine. It does involve a woman that was once raped, severely and by many people, and I wouldn't mind gaining a better understanding of the situation. (I'd rather do this via PM, though)
I am not easily offended, and am not offended by this discussion, but given the nature of this board, I think you need to have that conversation by PM. I think the discussion of alternative fan literature needs some toning down too. Just my 1.3 cents.

Dave Mitsky
2005-Nov-07, 04:40 PM
It's my impression that you would easily find racier stuff in motion pictures of the time (early sixties). Or in Playboy magazine. But perhaps I'm the one who's mistaken.

Some of the outfits of the female Star Trek characters, usually alien, were definitely racy for television of that era.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/original/space_grls.shtml

Dave Mitsky

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-07, 05:32 PM
THANK YOU, Dave.

I must give you a HAL program that greets you.

doltish
2005-Nov-16, 09:11 AM
With sexuality moving out of the mainstream of "Oh my God" style announcements, I wonder how long it will be before the concept of "coming out of the closet" will be obsolete.

The shock value of this kinda thing's worn off a lot.

Shock value isn't what it is about. I doubt the concept of coming out will ever be obsolete - at least not in any currently living generations lifetimes.

Coming out is a process for the person doing it. It's not there to inform people, it's there as the "last step" of acceptance of yourself, so to speak.

I think any gay person who has come out can tell you that it was a huge deal for them. I know some people who seem to have done it without any problem, but you could always tell they were a bit lighter on their feet for the next month. It's one of those things that *feels* like a dirty secret only because a) you usually only "figure it out" until your late adolescence and b) you are usually afraid to tell people about what you are thinking right away. It's an irrational fear that we all feel - that people will judge us. When I came out to my parents, I knew for a fact that they were going to be OK with it, accepting, and would continue to love me like they did before. It didn't stop me from being a complete emotional wreck through the whole process - I just felt afraid of what *could* be even if it wasn't what was *going* to be. It's just one of those wierd things in our minds that's hard to put into words I suppose.


keep in mind, the concept of admitting homosexuality in the 60s was much different than today. attitudes have changed dramatically in the time since then, but his life view was formulated in a time when it was not OK to be different. gay or otherwise, actually. as he noted, it took working on a recent play to spur his decision... i.e. he may have stayed underground (for lack of a better word this late at night) till his death otherwise.

i remember when we found out rock was gay. astonishment. now it's no big deal, and i'm actually surprised this was worth a news article.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Liberache was the quintiscential gay public figure, and he denied it up to the very day he died.

That said, I'm not surprised at all it made the news, for precisely the points you made: gay public figure with which an entire generation grew up comes out of the closet in the 21st century. That sentence speaks buckets to social changes and trends, not to mention the fact that we are going through a kind of "homosexual political crisis" in the United States at the moment. I am not surprised in the least that this made news.

TriangleMan
2005-Nov-16, 01:04 PM
Ellen DeGeneres coming out wasn't all that long ago and it was such a big deal, especially with her also "coming out" on her sitcom, I seem to recall that it made the cover of Time. So no I'm not too surprised that things like this still get press. Then again I was in the supermarket this morning and "Brittney gets mad at (whatever his name is)" was on the front page of a tabloid so even lame news is big news to some media.

MrClean
2005-Nov-16, 01:15 PM
Publiusr, if we are so ugly, how do we attract women. COme to think of it, how DO we attract women?

Because SOMEBODY has to change the oil in the car and kill spiders. Now that women are getting into those rolls we men is on the way out!

doltish
2005-Nov-16, 05:14 PM
Because SOMEBODY has to change the oil in the car and kill spiders. Now that women are getting into those rolls we men is on the way out!

See? That's what makes gay relationships so wonderful. We *share* in the spider killing and car repairs, like good boys should :D

Doodler
2005-Nov-16, 05:50 PM
Hmmm ...

I'm JUST Talented ....

:p

What him say. :D

Gillianren
2005-Nov-16, 08:49 PM
My good friend Steven (who's Chinese, which is why I snickered when Candy said she didn't think Asian people were gay) came out a little in high school. This was our senior year, so 1995. In Los Angeles County, California. In a school that was pretty much a bastion of liberalism--where it wasn't a bastion of apathy. But you pretty much picked one or the other of those.

Steven didn't tell everyone. Steven didn't feel he could tell everyone. In fact, he didn't tell his prom date (she harassed him into going with her; he didn't want to go at all). This wasn't all that long ago, and I think our school was far more accepting than the population at large (Jessica Rivera hit on my sister at graduation). We had a couple of teachers who were sort of in the doorway of the closet.

But you know, Mr. Perlstein wasn't going to take a lot of grief from the student body about his boyfriend, because he didn't talk about it much. Steven knew that certain of his friends couldn't reliably accept that he was gay, and so he didn't tell them, which made for some pretty interesting converstaions. I'm not sure he's told his parents yet.

And this is someone who has grown up in a society where it's not as huge a deal. George Takei grew up pre-Stonewall, back when "don't ask, don't tell" would have been a happy dream. He's watched the change in attitudes for the last, what, sixty years? And there's the internment camp thing. I think this is a huge deal more for what it says about the changes in society than for any personal interest in George Takei's (or anyone else's!) sexuality.

Side note: last week, some tabloid or another had a headline about some news anchor's "gay secret." And all I could think was, "Man, language has changed!"

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2005-Nov-16, 10:26 PM
On a Similar Note:

I Just Saw, a Teaser, for Tomorrow's Oprah?

In It, Queer Eye's Carson, said, "I told my parents, the day before the show premiered."

Hmmmm, They've MET him, Riight ...

hippietrekx
2005-Nov-24, 06:41 AM
Because SOMEBODY has to change the oil in the car and kill spiders. Now that women are getting into those rolls we men is on the way out!

*Ahem*

I kind of like spiders, and oil changes aren't that hard to do as long as you remember to let the oil and engine cool before doing it. (Brothers are really entertaining!)

No, men are around to open pickle jars and reach items on really high shelves.

--hipster

Maksutov
2005-Nov-24, 12:03 PM
*Ahem*

I kind of like spiders, and oil changes aren't that hard to do as long as you remember to let the oil and engine cool before doing it. (Brothers are really entertaining!)

No, men are around to open pickle jars and reach items on really high shelves.

--hipsterActually you should change the oil while it's hot (i.e., at engine operating temperature). Otherwise, the old oil runs slowly and a lot of it will not drain out, plus any sludge which is in suspension will return to the oil pan, and not get drained out. The next time the engine starts with the new oil and filter, all that stuff gets put back into suspension, and the new filter is now on its way to getting prematurely clogged.

Wear gloves as a safety precaution. Hot engine oil can be nasty.

BTW, spiders are great. Trap-doors are amazing, the webs spun by orb spiders are remarkable engineering feats (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Eednieuw/Spiders/Info/Construction_of_a_web.html), and even the black widow I had to evict from my garage was a wonderful-looking animal, although the reminders of my ex weren't.

We're good for things beside jars and top shelf. Heck, I can't recall the number of snakes I banished from my yard when my wife and her friends started screaming.

hippietrekx
2005-Nov-25, 05:30 AM
Actually you should change the oil while it's hot[...]

Wear gloves as a safety precaution. Hot engine oil can be nasty.

All I know is that, one time, my oldest brother came running into the house screaming, "HOT! HOT! FINGER!" Later we had to take him to the emergency room for a third degree burn on the tip of his middle finger. He lost the nail. About 5,000 miles later, he took the car to a mechanic.:)

My guess is he *didn't* wear gloves.

--hipster

{edit to add: I like snakes, too. Mom won't let me have one. :( I guess I'm just short, weak, and abnormal. :D}

novaderrik
2005-Nov-25, 03:44 PM
anyone ever notice that when a "famous" person comes out of the closet, it usually has to do with whatever "project" that they are working on? how many of us would have even heard of the play or whatever it is that Captain Sulu is in had he not "come out" when he did?
and Ellen Degeneres came out when she did because she knew she could also tie it in with the "coming out" episode of her show.the whole world knew she was gay- and i don't think anyone cared. then that one woman- what was her name?- said she was gay and hung around with Ellen until the whole novelty of the whole thing wore off- and she had that Harrison Ford movie coming out that she needed to get press for.
now, i'm waiting for the whole Kenny Chesney "revelation". that one is sure to break more than a few country listener's worlds wide open. maybe when his career is sagging and he has a "greatest hits" album coming out, and he is just sick of "living a lie".
when someone famous comes out like that, i just say "oh goody. another hipster gay celebrity". and move on with my life.
now, for a personal story. nope- i'm not gay. but a good friend of mine that i've known since 1978 or so is. everyone knew he was gay- hell, when i first met him, i was 4 years old and knew he was somehow different. anyways, he "came out" in fabulous gay-pride-rainbow bumper sticker stereotype fashion on halloween of 1995. he was dressed up as the ugliest woman you have ever seen, and you could practically get burnt from the flames eminating from him. he acted like that for the better part of a year, then just became "Mike" again over time. last year, i was at his house eating dinner with him and Todd- his- uh- "special friend"- and he was talking about how he shocked everyone when he suddenly came out. i looked right at him and told him in no uncertain terms that no one was shocked, and that the only way he could have shocked us would have been to NOT be gay. i don't think he believed me...

publiusr
2005-Dec-02, 09:27 PM
Now, i'm waiting for the whole Kenny Chesney "revelation". that one is sure to break more than a few country listener's worlds wide open.

Now what have I and Phil hendrie been saying about Western wear all these years!

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2005-Dec-03, 01:05 AM
Now what have I and Phil hendrie been saying about Western wear all these years!
Chaps, Make your Butt, Look Good?

:lol:

:whistle: