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Andrew
2003-Feb-01, 02:34 PM
It's all over the news. No online articles I can find yet.

Kizarvexis
2003-Feb-01, 02:36 PM
cnn.com and Yahoo.com have mentioined it.

Kizarvexis

Andrew
2003-Feb-01, 02:36 PM
http://www.space.com/shuttlemissions/

It appears to have broken up over Texas.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 02:44 PM
It's gone.

Requisat en pace, Columbia crew.

Andrew
2003-Feb-01, 02:44 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.landing.ap/index.html

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=624&e=1&u=/ap/20030201/ap_on_sc/space_shuttle

Reverend J
2003-Feb-01, 02:47 PM
It appears that the Shuttle Columbia broke up upon re-entry into Earth's atmosphere at this time. It was travling at 12,500 mph at 200,000 feet when it lost contact at 9:00am EST. It appears that all hands aborad where lost. My condolences go out the family, friends, and NASA for there loss.

Reverend J

Jigsaw
2003-Feb-01, 03:01 PM
And already the first conspiracy theories are at large, over on another MB. "Was it shot down with a Stinger?" Geez. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Mercifully, apparently a Stinger couldn't have reached them while they were 40 miles up and traveling at Mach 17. Wish all the conspiracy theories were that easy to debunk.

Doodler
2003-Feb-01, 03:02 PM
Rest in Peace, Columbia. God, this brings back some unwanted memories. I was in the fourth grade when the Challenger exploded. This was not something I had ever hoped to see again.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 03:04 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:02, Doodler wrote:
Rest in Peace, Columbia. God, this brings back some unwanted memories. I was in the fourth grade when the Challenger exploded. This was not something I had ever hoped to see again.


It was going to happen. Not "if" but "when".

This may mark the end of manned space exploration for the United States.

Waarthog
2003-Feb-01, 03:06 PM
I doubt it Bill. I think we have a bit more perservereance than that, but it will get sidelined for a while. The ISS may have to be abandoned for a bit too.

God rest the souls of the crew and give comfort to the families.

Doodler
2003-Feb-01, 03:06 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:04, Bill S. wrote:


It was going to happen. Not "if" but "when".

This may mark the end of manned space exploration for the United States.


That was the unspoken thought I had in mind...

AgoraBasta
2003-Feb-01, 03:07 PM
Horrible and unfair event happened...
Good people died.

And the fact will surely get perused indecently by a totally different kind of people...

Sleepy
2003-Feb-01, 03:08 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:01, Jigsaw wrote:
And already the first conspiracy theories are at large, over on another MB. "Was it shot down with a Stinger?" Geez. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Mercifully, apparently a Stinger couldn't have reached them while they were 40 miles up and traveling at Mach 17. Wish all the conspiracy theories were that easy to debunk.

I dont believe there is a weapon in any inventory capable of hitting a target travelling so high and so fast.

My condolances to the family and friends of the crew.

The Rat
2003-Feb-01, 03:11 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:04, Bill S. wrote:
This may mark the end of manned space exploration for the United States.


That would be the ultimate insult to their memory.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 03:11 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:06, Waarthog wrote:
I doubt it Bill. I think we have a bit more perservereance than that, but it will get sidelined for a while. The ISS may have to be abandoned for a bit too.

God rest the souls of the crew and give comfort to the families.


I truly hope you are correct, however, my (albeit short) work at NASA introduced me to people who talked about what "would have been" had there been no Challenger disaster. They talked about how badly and irreversably that set the program back, and how another similar disaster would spell the end of the program entirely, thanks to smallminded buereaucrats who simply think NASA sends astronauts into space to die.

semi-sentient
2003-Feb-01, 03:20 PM
My condolences go out to the families of the astronauts. We can only hope NASA keeps the program alive so that those who have been lost in past missions did not do so in vain. I was in the 4th grade as well when the original Challenger disaster took place and it was a horrible experience.

poorleno
2003-Feb-01, 03:21 PM
Poor guys...

Damned be the responsible party.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 03:23 PM
Lord, what a shock. I just found out. I just don't have any words now.

Magnifico
2003-Feb-01, 03:23 PM
I can't believe this is my first post as a member of this board. What a tragic loss, I'm struck numb... This really sucks. Phil's off in Florida, and this likely ruined his good time and that of many others there... I feel awful for the mission specialists, and the astronauts and their families, and the future of manned exploration... a day to weep.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 03:25 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:21, poorleno wrote:
Poor guys...

Damned be the responsible party.


Please, please don't start that. I've waded through dozens of messages speculating everything from terrorists to errant surface-to-air missiles in the short time since the disaster.

The Columbia's loss was due to a catastrophic structural failure induced by reentry heat, shear forces, and airframe imbalance when heat-resistant tiles failed, likely on the starboard wing where a section of main fuel tank insulation fell during liftoff.

Rodina
2003-Feb-01, 03:28 PM
There was some yahoo eye-witness on CNN saying that he "saw an airplane really close" to the shuttle. (Gosh, and even if it was a Concorde, it was still 14 miles away). I was surprised Miles O'Brien let him talk for more than two seconds, let alone two minutes, but he did. Miles O'Brien knows better than that.

Ad Astra Per Aspera.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rodina on 2003-02-01 10:28 ]</font>

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 03:28 PM
My condolenses go out to all the astronauts and to all at NASA... This brings back such horrible memories... As an engineer myself, I've always been nervous each time a shuttle mission is in progress... There's so litle room for error and so so many things that can go wrong... Or to put it another way, millions and millions of things have to go right each mission for success... And if just one thing goes wrong it can lead to trouble... I hope this doesn't spell the end for manned space flight exploration... We need to stay strong, learn what happened, fix it and move forward... God rest their souls... Let's not let them die in vain!!

Vermonter
2003-Feb-01, 03:31 PM
My heart goes out to the families and friends of those seven astronauts...I was too young to remember the Challenger but I had hoped not to witness a catastrophe such as this...May they Rest in Peace.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 03:32 PM
CNN seems to be doing a pretty good job keeping the facts clear from the speculation. They mentioned that the accident was much higher than any commercial flight.

They also warn that you shouldn't touch any debris because of possible danger of poisonous chemicals.

Wow. It's scattered debris all over my old university town. I know that area.

RafaelAustin
2003-Feb-01, 03:32 PM
I just want to offer my condolences to the families, friends and loved ones of the crew and anyone reading this who knew them. Also to the people at NASA who have worked so hard and will now have a somber task ahead of them.

I clearly remember the joy of watching two night landings as the glowing contrail crossed over Texas. Also watching an Apollo launch from the cape and watching Armstrong on the TV as a child. I knew that statistically, there would have to be another tragedy, but it is always a shock.

Rest in peace.

Rich
2003-Feb-01, 03:33 PM
Mt brother called me from Germany to tell me wake me up and tell me.

What a God awful tragedy.

As sad as this makes me, I'm already angry knowing that some will morph this event into their pet conspiracy theories. They will desecrate the memories of those brave adventurers and all they stand for to make some patheticly weak connection to any piece of b.s. they currently neurotically believe in.

If we are extremely lucky perhaps President Bush will use this tragedy to quickly transition our space exploration onto newer and safer vehicles.

Waarthog
2003-Feb-01, 03:33 PM
The Columbia's loss was due to a catastrophic structural failure induced by reentry heat, shear forces, and airframe imbalance when heat-resistant tiles failed, likely on the starboard wing where a section of main fuel tank insulation fell during liftoff.

Although this is the likliest scenario and the one my money is on, its still to early do anything but speculate. I am NOT looking forward to the nutballs crawling out of the woodwork.

Donnie B.
2003-Feb-01, 03:37 PM
I add my sympathies to those expressed by others. It's a black day.

Our JimO (James Oberg) has been on several networks commenting on the disaster. He's been holding out the hope that someone may have survived until the cabin was low enough for bailout. I sure hope he's right, but I have to say I doubt it. There must have been tremendous G-forces during the breakup, not to mention the reentry heat.

Moose
2003-Feb-01, 03:37 PM
Ugh.

The shuttle Columbia breaks up, with an Israeli on board, over Palestine, Texas (according to CNN).

The conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day over this, the vultures.

*sigh*

g99
2003-Feb-01, 03:41 PM
I am in tottal shock. What a horrible event. I woke up hoping it would be a good morning and i see that on t.v. .

CNN is nowe reporting that debris is falling on a small town in Texas and that all citizens in texas are supposed to call the FBI if they find any bit of the debris. They are not supposed to touch it due to chemicals in the shuttle.


I am deeply sorry for whomever was on the shuttle. If any of you knew the people, I am very sorry for your loss. In a lighter note, the probobly died doing what they love and never felt a thing.

I really, really hope that no HB'er or conspiracy nut jumps on this. I was 8 years old when Challenger exploded so i don't remember what happened after it. I just really, really hope that nobody says anything about the Israeli being on board and some conspiracy about that. While there is a chance of there being a terroist attack, i highly doubt it. As said before it probobly was a breakup due to air pressure.

Does anyone know if they were coming in at a wrong angle or a little early or later than they were supposed to be?


CNN is now reporting that the shuttle was 23 years old and that could of been the factor that did it. But arn't shuttles checked out and stripped down after every flight? So that should not play a factor at all. If it was in poor condition, than it should not of been launched.

I hope this tragic event does not hurt the space program any more than it already is.

Again my deep heartfelt condolences to the lost crew. My prarys to you....


[doh, i was 8 when the challenger
tragedy, not 5. Oopss.]
_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 11:12 ]</font>

Nightfall
2003-Feb-01, 03:41 PM
I too feel sorrow for the loss of the Columbia and her crew. Like Gemstone, and probably the rest of you, my hope is that they are able take the information from this accident and improve shuttle flight for future astronauts.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 03:47 PM
I agree. I hope they get the funds to make space safer and a new, more modern breed of shuttles comes about. Good luck James O. and Phil. You will probobly be flooded with calls and conspiracy theories to tear down. I hope you get some time to yourself.


P.S. Was there a shuttle version of the "black (orange) box" on the shuttle? What information is it set up to give? Video, audio, or only data?

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 03:48 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:41, Nightfall wrote:
I too feel sorrow for the loss of the Columbia and her crew. Like Gemstone, and probably the rest of you, my hope is that they are able take the information from this accident and improve shuttle flight for future astronauts.


With any hope of good fortune, this will be the end of the Space Shuttle "fleet", and a newer, safer, more cost-effective and reliable vehicle will be designed and used.

Thargoid
2003-Feb-01, 03:49 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:11, The Rat wrote:


On 2003-02-01 10:04, Bill S. wrote:
This may mark the end of manned space exploration for the United States.


That would be the ultimate insult to their memory.


It is disgusting that we have to worry about this, but should we perhaps begin orgnizing an effort to support the manned space program? The sharks will arrive soon.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 03:53 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:49, Thargoid wrote:


On 2003-02-01 10:11, The Rat wrote:


On 2003-02-01 10:04, Bill S. wrote:
This may mark the end of manned space exploration for the United States.


That would be the ultimate insult to their memory.


It is disgusting that we have to worry about this, but should we perhaps begin orgnizing an effort to support the manned space program? The sharks will arrive soon.


Those who follow the Walter Mondale mindset are likely slapping their knees and grinning with glee this morning. Now all of that "wasted" money can be put into their pet failures.

It sickens me as well. BTW, the sharks are already here; they've been circling NASA since Challenger.

Thargoid
2003-Feb-01, 03:58 PM
Those who follow the Walter Mondale mindset are likely slapping their knees and grinning with glee this morning. Now all of that "wasted" money can be put into their pet failures.

It sickens me as well. BTW, the sharks are already here; they've been circling NASA since Challenger.


I'm just a college guy, so I don't have any pull with anyone. However, many of you here are directly involved with space exploration, and have many professional connections. It would be good to have an organization in place to guard against the tomb robbers.

Did anyone here the crank caller on cbs? GRRRRR

Lord help the astronauts and their families.

Tom
2003-Feb-01, 03:59 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:47, g99 wrote:
I agree. I hope they get the funds to make space safer and a new, more modern breed of shuttles comes about.

That would be great. However, the current shuttles are proven vehicles. They may not be as efficient as they could be, but they have been proven reliable, over and over again. Thus, more cost effective to continue using them. What will be interesting is how (or if ) NASA will replace this one, and with what design..

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tom on 2003-02-01 11:00 ]</font>

Doodler
2003-Feb-01, 03:59 PM
No black box, that was already covered. A former shuttle astronaut indicated that any such box would more than likely be destroyed or damaged from forces much worse than those experienced by a crashing jetliner.

Smaug
2003-Feb-01, 04:03 PM
My earnest sympathies to all.

I take it as an insult that they would even spend more than a passing moment on the idea that this was a terrorist attack. There is no conclusive evidence at this time of foul play.

I doubt the age had that much play in this disaster. Like the previous poster said it is inspected thoroughly. It is not like a commercial jet where they just do a quick checkup and after 20 years or so it's in not so good shape.

I heard Buzz Aldrin on Fox News I think it was, talking about the enormous energy exchanges involved in space flight. I would hate to have to explain it to those hyperlayman news anchors.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 04:04 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:58, Thargoid wrote:
[quote]

Did anyone here the crank caller on cbs? GRRRRR

Lord help the astronauts and their families.


Missed it, watching CNN. What happened?

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 04:11 PM
I hope that President Bush, when he addresses the country today, will reaffirm this countries commitment to manned space flight exploration... Space exploration is a dangerous game and lives are put at risk each and every mission... But when man stops exploring, we stop growing, and die!

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:14 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:11, Gemstone wrote:
I hope that President Bush, when he addresses the country today, will reaffirm this countries commitment to manned space flight exploration... Space exploration is a dangerous game and lives are put at risk each and every mission... But when man stops exploring, we stop growing, and die!


I do, too. However, I think (as I have said before) that at the very least this will set back space exploration by at least a decade and a half. A great amount of Challenger was recovered and therefore a cause could be identified.

I'm not saying we won't know with this disaster, but if we can't ever conclusively say "Yes, this is the cause.", then it will be difficult to get Congress to fund any further spaceflights. Too many questions will remain, such as "What happens when the next one just falls apart, since you can't predict when that'll happen?"

Farmer Tim
2003-Feb-01, 04:15 PM
What a terrible tragedy! My deepest sympathies for the immediate family's of all involved. The ridiculous speculation from some of the news agencies and anchors is disgusting to me and totally inappropriate at this point. A live news conference from mission control is scheduled for 10:30am Central time.

Smaug
2003-Feb-01, 04:17 PM
On Fox news they have reported that the first piece of debris was found and they have a picture of it. It was found in north Texas

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:22 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:17, Smaug wrote:
On Fox news they have reported that the first piece of debris was found and they have a picture of it. It was found in north Texas


I just hope that people heed the authorities and do not tamper with the debris; some of it is filled with fantastically dangerous substances.

Tom
2003-Feb-01, 04:23 PM
Weather radar track of shuttle:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/radar/images/DS.p19r0/SI.kshv/latest.gif

2003-Feb-01, 04:24 PM
I was in my graduating year of high school at the time of the Challenger disaster. There was a huge but quiet debate at the time..."Space travel: Is it worth the risk?" It's certain that the subject will come up again.

I came down firmly on the "Yes" side of the discussion, believing that any exploration had inherent risks. I still am. I just hope that the right side wins out again.

NASA funding came under fire, and there was talk about shutting down the shuttle missions. There were people who considered NASA to be an expensive boondoggle--a flashy useless toy--and wanted the whole thing shut down. The most vocal were the same folks who shut down the Apollo program. Cooler heads prevailed, and the shuttle missions continued. I wish I knew who will win this round.

And now, to add insult to injury, we've got nutcases swarming all over everthing screaming 'foul'--an insult to the memories of the astronauts.

My sympathies and sorrow goes out to the crew and their families. Rest in peace.

Dana_Mix
2003-Feb-01, 04:24 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:14, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:11, Gemstone wrote:
I hope that President Bush, when he addresses the country today, will reaffirm this countries commitment to manned space flight exploration... Space exploration is a dangerous game and lives are put at risk each and every mission... But when man stops exploring, we stop growing, and die!


I do, too. However, I think (as I have said before) that at the very least this will set back space exploration by at least a decade and a half. A great amount of Challenger was recovered and therefore a cause could be identified.

I'm not saying we won't know with this disaster, but if we can't ever conclusively say "Yes, this is the cause.", then it will be difficult to get Congress to fund any further spaceflights. Too many questions will remain, such as "What happens when the next one just falls apart, since you can't predict when that'll happen?"




I think it was an astrounaut on ABC who said it would not cause as long a postonment as long as the Challenger accident. There is no design flaw here and we know that the shuttle works. Plus, we have a lot of stuff in place.


Dana

AgoraBasta
2003-Feb-01, 04:24 PM
Those who have been methodically cutting the NASA funding must be kept responsible for this tragedy. That's what I really believe in!

Vermonter
2003-Feb-01, 04:26 PM
I've been watching ABC for a little bit. They couldn't stress enough of how this wasn't a terrorist attack. However, that is all they say, with occasional eyewitness reports from Texas. It's the "Fog of War" all over again, I think around mid-afternoon the folks at NASA will have a good clue of what's going on.

I can only hope the conspirators havan't ganged up on this like fire ants on a wounded armadillo.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 04:27 PM
It's going to be a nightmare to collect the debris. East Texas is a heavily forested area. Not to mention a lot of people are likely to ignore the warnings.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 04:27 PM
President bush will be speaking from the white house at 12:30 Eastern.

CNN just showed a mangled burnt peice of the skin in a parking lot. Horrible...

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:29 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:27, g99 wrote:
President bush will be speaking from the white house at 12:30 Eastern.

CNN just showed a mangled burnt peice of the skin in a parking lot. Horrible...


I'll set the VCR.

I've got a friend who is grimly TIVO-ing the entire disaster from every channel he can tune in.

This is a black day.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 04:29 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:14, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:11, Gemstone wrote:
I hope that President Bush, when he addresses the country today, will reaffirm this countries commitment to manned space flight exploration... Space exploration is a dangerous game and lives are put at risk each and every mission... But when man stops exploring, we stop growing, and die!


I do, too. However, I think (as I have said before) that at the very least this will set back space exploration by at least a decade and a half. A great amount of Challenger was recovered and therefore a cause could be identified.

I'm not saying we won't know with this disaster, but if we can't ever conclusively say "Yes, this is the cause.", then it will be difficult to get Congress to fund any further spaceflights. Too many questions will remain, such as "What happens when the next one just falls apart, since you can't predict when that'll happen?"




That was my fear when we lost the first shuttle also. Unfortunately this will give all the naysayers ammo to take funding away from the Space Program which is really a shame because our future is in space.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 04:37 PM
1) There was an eyewitness caller on NBC who said that at first he thought that the shuttle was being followed by 3 chase planes, but then he realized that the shuttle was far too high and moving too quickly to be followed by anything. I was pleased that he corrected himself clearly on the air, to avoid any conspiracy fodder.

2) There is no Surface-to-Air missle capable of intercepting a target moving at an alititude of 203,000 feet and/or at a speed of 12,500. This is one reason why the US's experimental ABM system is having mixed results.

3) The original reports I heard indicated that the Columbia was moving at Mach 12. NBC just said Mach 6 (10:39 a.m. CT). Nasa.gov indicates Mach 18. So which is it? I suspect someone is doing some incorrect math. I'm going to do it myself and see which is accurate.

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:39 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:37, aporetic_r wrote:
3) The original reports I heard indicated that the Columbia was moving at Mach 12. NBC just said Mach 6 (10:39 a.m. CT). Nasa.gov indicates Mach 18. So which is it? I suspect someone is doing some incorrect math. I'm going to do it myself and see which is accurate.

Aporetic


12,800 MPH is the current best guess.

Mach, IIRC, = 768mph at MSL. 12800/768=16.6~; so Mach 18 is probably closest to the mark.

Weather satellite radar shows the debris cloud still. Although I'm wondering if what it's showing is a hard ionization trail.

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-01, 04:42 PM
I just want to cry. This is horrible. I don't know what else to say.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif

Conrad
2003-Feb-01, 04:44 PM
My God. What can I say that's not trite?
I remember the Challenger disaster, and never thought anything like it would happen again. Condolences to the families of those killed. I feel as bad as I did during the Kursk incident.

And a thousand firebolts upon the heads of the b.s. merchants who are probably crawling out of the woodwork even as I type. @$*&#! vermin.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 04:45 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:42, Laser Jock wrote:
I just want to cry. This is horrible. I don't know what else to say.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif


I feel the same way, and please excuse me if this comes of as harsh, but now is the itme for knowledgeable and/or seriously interested people to keep their wits about them in order to head off idle speculation, conspiracy theories, and general fearmongering.

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:46 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:44, Conrad wrote:
My God. What can I say that's not trite?
I remember the Challenger disaster, and never thought anything like it would happen again. Condolences to the families of those killed. I feel as bad as I did during the Kursk incident.

And a thousand firebolts upon the heads of the b.s. merchants who are probably crawling out of the woodwork even as I type. @$*&#! vermin.


Indeed. I'd like to punch Bart Sibrel this morning, just on general principals.

GrapesOfWrath
2003-Feb-01, 04:47 PM
On 2003-02-01 10:41, g99 wrote:
CNN is nowe reporting that debris is falling on a small town in Texas and that all citizens in texas are supposed to call the FBI if they find any bit of the debris. They are not supposed to touch it due to chemicals in the shuttle.
Nacogdoches, TX, apparently, has debris all over town, some pieces up to three feet wide.

Thargoid
2003-Feb-01, 04:47 PM
I think it was an astrounaut on ABC who said it would not cause as long a postonment as long as the Challenger accident. There is no design flaw here and we know that the shuttle works. Plus, we have a lot of stuff in place.


Dana


If all of that talk about a mars mission in 2010 is true, then it gives one hope. A hard charging president, a la Kennedy, can shame Congress into moving forward. Apollo survived the tragedy of Apollo 1, after all. It took public apathy and politicians to kill it.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 04:48 PM
12,800 MPH is the current best guess.

Mach, IIRC, = 768mph at MSL. 12800/768=16.6~; so Mach 18 is probably closest to the mark.

Weather satellite radar shows the debris cloud still. Although I'm wondering if what it's showing is a hard ionization trail.


Thanks for the math - I just did it as well and came to the same answer, but I trust your math far more than mine, anyway.

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:49 PM
This is for the public record here. I'm sure it will be documented in higher profile areas, but for those who may not have looked, this is from http://www.nasa.gov main page:



NASA STATEMENT ON LOSS OF COMMUNICATIONS WITH COLUMBIA

A Space Shuttle contingency has been declared in Mission Control, Houston, as a result of the loss of communication with the Space Shuttle Columbia at approximately 9 a.m. EST Saturday as it descended toward a landing at the Kennedy Space Center, Fla. It was scheduled to touchdown at 9:16 a.m. EST.

Communication and tracking of the shuttle was lost at 9 a.m. EST at an altitude of about 203,000 feet in the area above north central Texas. At the time communications were lost. The shuttle was traveling approximately 12,500 miles per hour (Mach 18). No communication and tracking information were received in Mission Control after that time.

Search and rescue teams in the Dallas-Fort Worth and in portions of East Texas have been alerted. Any debris that is located in the area that may be related to the Space Shuttle contingency should be avoided and may be hazardous as a result of toxic propellants used aboard the shuttle. The location of any possible debris should immediately be reported to local authorities.

Flight controllers in Mission Control have secured all information, notes and data pertinent to today's entry and landing by Space Shuttle Columbia and continue to methodically proceed through contingency plans.

News media covering the Space Shuttle should stay tuned to NASA Television, which is broadcast on AMC-2, transponder 9C, C-Band, located at 85 degrees West longitude. The frequency is 3880.0 MHz. Polarization is vertical and audio is monaural at 6.8 MHz. Reporters can also go to any NASA center newsroom to monitor the situation.

New information, including the times and locations of press briefings, will be posted to this page.

Thargoid
2003-Feb-01, 04:50 PM
Missed it, watching CNN. What happened?


The ******* said that he had found one of the astronauts teeth, and then called Rather an idiot. Definitely had a screw loose

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 04:51 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:47, GrapesOfWrath

Nacogdoches, TX, apparently, has debris all over town, some pieces up to three feet wide.


I know it well. It's a university town, my alma mater. Ironically, that's where I was during the Challenger disaster.

My biggest worry now is the behavior of the students there. I wouldn't want to trust most of them around the debris.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:52 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:51, David Hall wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:47, GrapesOfWrath

Nacogdoches, TX, apparently, has debris all over town, some pieces up to three feet wide.


I know it well. It's a university town, my alma mater. Ironically, that's where I was during the Challenger disaster.

My biggest worry now is the behavior of the students there. I wouldn't want to trust most of them around the debris.


We can only hope that critical thinking indiciatave of a higher-learning process will surface and that instead of souvenier hunting they'll assist the authorities.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 04:52 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:51, David Hall wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:47, GrapesOfWrath

Nacogdoches, TX, apparently, has debris all over town, some pieces up to three feet wide.


I know it well. It's a university town, my alma mater. Ironically, that's where I was during the Challenger disaster.

My biggest worry now is the behavior of the students there. I wouldn't want to trust most of them around the debris.



NBC has been doing a good job of telling people exactly why they shouldn't go near the debris, but of course if one is out looking for debris one is not likely to hear these warnings.

Aporetic

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 04:53 PM
Oh, no! This is horrible!

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif

I also extend condolences to the family and friends of the shuttle crew and all others close to the program.

Likewise, I extend condolences to all the students who designed the experiments that were on board. This must strike a personal blow to them as well.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 04:58 PM
Does anyone know which shuttle systems are in operation during the gliding descent? It certainly appears that there was a small explosion (and by small I mean large enough to cause breakup but to small to cause disintegration). There's fuel, oxygen, electronics, etc., on board, but which of these systems are in some state other than basically locked-down?

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 04:59 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:58, aporetic_r wrote:
Does anyone know which shuttle systems are in operation during the gliding descent? It certainly appears that there was a small explosion (and by small I mean large enough to cause breakup but to small to cause disintegration). There's fuel, oxygen, electronics, etc., on board, but which of these systems are in some state other than basically locked-down?

Aporetic



Let's not speculate just yet. I did and I apologize for it; let's just wait a couple of days before we posit "explosions" or "structural failures" and see what happens.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 05:02 PM
Update on president Bush. (According to CNN) He is not going to speak untill NASA gives its official adress. So it could be a while. But he might say something at the planed time. I Don't know.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 05:06 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:52, Bill S. wrote:

We can only hope that critical thinking indiciatave of a higher-learning process will surface and that instead of souvenier hunting they'll assist the authorities.


I'm sure the majority will be intelligent enough to do the right thing. I worry most about the small number of knuckleheads who treat any kind of major event like this as some kind of party.

Of course, the town itself is just one small part of the entire debris field. There's a lot of area there to cover.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 05:07 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:59, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:58, aporetic_r wrote:
Does anyone know which shuttle systems are in operation during the gliding descent? It certainly appears that there was a small explosion (and by small I mean large enough to cause breakup but to small to cause disintegration). There's fuel, oxygen, electronics, etc., on board, but which of these systems are in some state other than basically locked-down?

Aporetic



Let's not speculate just yet. I did and I apologize for it; let's just wait a couple of days before we posit "explosions" or "structural failures" and see what happens.


Nothing wrong with speculation my friend. Thats how we start to sort through what happened. Its when speculation is taken as the truth before we have solid facts that its a problem.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 05:09 PM
Let's not speculate just yet. I did and I apologize for it; let's just wait a couple of days before we posit "explosions" or "structural failures" and see what happens.


My statement was not intended as an invitation to speculation as to what might have occurred, although now that I re-read it I can see that it was. I really was just wondering in general which shuttle systems are being used during the time in question - mostly so that I can correct people who might be claiming incorrect things. For example, my mother asked me if one of the engines could have malfunctioned - she was unaware that the shuttle's descent is unpowered. Given that various angles of video clearly show at least 2 separate apparent explosions, I'd like to know the status of various major shuttle systems in order to more intelligently head off speculation.

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 05:12 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:09, aporetic_r wrote:


Let's not speculate just yet. I did and I apologize for it; let's just wait a couple of days before we posit "explosions" or "structural failures" and see what happens.


My statement was not intended as an invitation to speculation as to what might have occurred, although now that I re-read it I can see that it was. I really was just wondering in general which shuttle systems are being used during the time in question - mostly so that I can correct people who might be claiming incorrect things. For example, my mother asked me if one of the engines could have malfunctioned - she was unaware that the shuttle's descent is unpowered. Given that various angles of video clearly show at least 2 separate apparent explosions, I'd like to know the status of various major shuttle systems in order to more intelligently head off speculation.

Aporetic



Well, there's enough oxygen and other gases and chemicals on board that them escaping in a quick and unmetered fashion that it could at such a distance appear to be an explosion or explosion(s). So there's no telling. With exteme yaw, the tanks might start to fail and internal pressure finish the job; this would be an "explosion" of sorts.

Aside: I wish the hell we weren't having this discussion right now.

Hale_Bopp
2003-Feb-01, 05:18 PM
Well, I am a teacher who is applying for the Educator Astronaut program that NASA just announced. I know this may kill that opportunity as well, but I will not let this deter me. Although I know it is a long shot, my application will be submitted as planned and I would go up if selected.

On another note, I just moved to Racine, Wisconsin last fall. Laurel Clark of Racine was on the shuttle. Obviously, I did not know her, but the news coverage of this shuttle flight has been quite high here.

May we honor their memory by pressing forward!

Rob

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 05:18 PM
More documentation - the debris trail as shown on Weather Radar:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/radar/images/DS.p19r0/SI.kpoe/latest.gif</img>

Mokele Mbembe
2003-Feb-01, 05:27 PM
Wow. I'm just... stunned. There's not much more I can say.

I just hope that some good can come of this; that the InDuhViduals who want the space program shut down are ignored and MORE funding is given to NASA, to fix the remaining shuttles and build new vehicles. It may be unlikely, but I don't care. My logic says that when such a long-standing American institution that is now so important to us has an accident, you fix it, you don't kill it.

The Shuttle flights have become boring to the public. Nobody pays attention anymore. Hopefully now they will.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mokele Mbembe on 2003-02-01 12:29 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mokele Mbembe on 2003-02-01 12:31 ]</font>

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 05:31 PM
I copied this from an AP newswire article:

>Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the >shuttle flying overhead.

>"I could see two bright objects flying off >each side of it," he told The Associated >Press. "I just assumed they were chase >jets."


This is the caller I referred to earlier, who said what is listed above, but then corrected himself and said that he immediately realized that the shuttle was too high and moving too quickly to be followed by anything. I wish the AP would quote him in full.

Aporetic

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 05:42 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:31, aporetic_r wrote:
I copied this from an AP newswire article:

>Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the >shuttle flying overhead.

>"I could see two bright objects flying off >each side of it," he told The Associated >Press. "I just assumed they were chase >jets."


This is the caller I referred to earlier, who said what is listed above, but then corrected himself and said that he immediately realized that the shuttle was too high and moving too quickly to be followed by anything. I wish the AP would quote him in full.

Aporetic



Too much speculation will occur without broadcast calls like that, I fear. NASA has already had to make the statement that Columbia was out of any SAM range :/

Tuckerfan
2003-Feb-01, 05:42 PM
A black day indeed. My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of those who were lost.

"To the stars!" Christa McAuliffe

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 05:46 PM
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 05:49 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:46, nebularain wrote:
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?


It took me a moment to parse that.

From an operational standpoint, yes, it was our first Shuttle. From a historical point, no, Enterprise was our first. But Enterprise is not nor will it ever be a spaceworthy vehicle.

Well...wait, could they ever rebuild Enterprise into an operational Shuttle?

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 05:49 PM
This was the first mission in a couple of years that I haven't followed. I feel really guilty about that now.

My condolences to the families and to the program.

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-01, 05:50 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:46, nebularain wrote:
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?

I was. In some ways, it hurts more than the Challenger as a result.

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 05:52 PM
I've heard that the shuttles had a design life of 100 flights... If I heard correctly, this was Columbia's 28th flight...

The Rat
2003-Feb-01, 05:55 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:49, Bill S. wrote: Well...wait, could they ever rebuild Enterprise into an operational Shuttle?


As far as I know, the only thing it really had in common with the operational spacecraft was the shape. It was never intended to build it so that it could ever fly into space.

Tuckerfan
2003-Feb-01, 05:56 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:49, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:46, nebularain wrote:
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?


It took me a moment to parse that.

From an operational standpoint, yes, it was our first Shuttle. From a historical point, no, Enterprise was our first. But Enterprise is not nor will it ever be a spaceworthy vehicle.

Well...wait, could they ever rebuild Enterprise into an operational Shuttle?
Yes, they could, since the Enterprise was essentially space worthy (it was even capable of circling the runway, unlike the rest of the shuttles), but I sincerely doubt that they'd do that. Would be nice if they did, though.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 05:59 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:56, Tuckerfan wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:49, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:46, nebularain wrote:
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?


It took me a moment to parse that.

From an operational standpoint, yes, it was our first Shuttle. From a historical point, no, Enterprise was our first. But Enterprise is not nor will it ever be a spaceworthy vehicle.

Well...wait, could they ever rebuild Enterprise into an operational Shuttle?
Yes, they could, since the Enterprise was essentially space worthy (it was even capable of circling the runway, unlike the rest of the shuttles), but I sincerely doubt that they'd do that. Would be nice if they did, though.


We have two "Yes's" and a couple of "no's" - anyone here work close to the Shuttle enough to tell definitively?

Sleepy
2003-Feb-01, 05:59 PM
Just heard a certain James Oberg on BBC News 24. One of the more knowledgable experts they've had on on this sad day.

cable
2003-Feb-01, 05:59 PM
I add my sympathies to those expressed by all of you.
let their soul rest in peace.

I think, since robotics technology improved dramatically,
NASA should concentrate on NON MANNED missions.
how about a remotely controlled shuttle ??

Zathras
2003-Feb-01, 06:02 PM
I live in Fort Worth, and pretty close to 8 a.m. CST I heard the two bangs that they have been talking about. They rattled my windows pretty badly. I looked outside to see if there was an explosion, but didn't see anything. Several neighbors heard it too. I never looked up. I only heard about what happened about 40 minutes later. I feel like an idiot for not trying to find out more of what happened.

What a tragedy. I don't know what else to say.

We'll be back to space. It may take a while and not be on the shuttles, but we will be back, no matter what the cause of this was (probably not a man-made disaster). Nothing will deter us from what we must do.

Irishman
2003-Feb-01, 06:04 PM
Stunned silence.

Someone on the news was interviewing people at large in Nacadoches. The responses reported have all been pretty much sane and sensible - probably not terrorism, let's not cancel the program but continue manned space exploration, etc.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 06:05 PM
I think, since robotics technology improved dramatically,
NASA should concentrate on NON MANNED missions.
how about a remotely controlled shuttle ??




Thats a long ways off. The Shuttle's much more complex then the unmanned aircraft we have now. We are going to need people on board for a long time for systems monitering.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 06:07 PM
I, for one, would think it a terrible insult to the memories of the people lost if we just gave up our exploration of space because of a single accident.

I'll guarantee you that none of the astronauts would want that either.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:08 PM
Wasn't Challenger also before Columbia?

Kizarvexis
2003-Feb-01, 06:13 PM
On 2003-02-01 12:59, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:56, Tuckerfan wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:49, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 12:46, nebularain wrote:
Was anyone else struck with the impact that this is our first shuttle that was lost?


It took me a moment to parse that.

From an operational standpoint, yes, it was our first Shuttle. From a historical point, no, Enterprise was our first. But Enterprise is not nor will it ever be a spaceworthy vehicle.

Well...wait, could they ever rebuild Enterprise into an operational Shuttle?
Yes, they could, since the Enterprise was essentially space worthy (it was even capable of circling the runway, unlike the rest of the shuttles), but I sincerely doubt that they'd do that. Would be nice if they did, though.


We have two "Yes's" and a couple of "no's" - anyone here work close to the Shuttle enough to tell definitively?


IIRC, a NASA faq said that Enterprise could not be made spaceworthy.

Kizarvexis

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 06:13 PM
I'm saddened by all this too. Bill S. thanks for all the documentation, I trust BABB members much more than I trust the news media since I've been a direct witness to their slanting of actual events in the more sensationalistic direction (I was in the Gulf and saw CNN reports in direct conflict with events I was involved in.)

Condolences to the families, controllers, and especially the engineers who deemed the insulation failure to be non-catastrophic (even if this had nothing to do with it, you know they're tearing their hair out right now wondering...).

I'm highly annoyed that the media has to explain why it could not have been a plane or missile which caused this...it's an indication of the level of education of the general public with respect to science.

~Brad

dgavin
2003-Feb-01, 06:16 PM
Been a while since I've posted here.

My condulances to the familly and friends of the shuttle Columbia.

True a sad day for all.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 06:18 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:13, Kizarvexis wrote:
IIRC, a NASA faq said that Enterprise could not be made spaceworthy.
Kizarvexis



Thanks for the info.

I wonder if the jigs and dies are still intact if they wanted to replace Columbia...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bill S. on 2003-02-01 13:18 ]</font>

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 06:19 PM
I'm highly annoyed that the media has to explain why it could not have been a plane or missile which caused this...it's an indication of the level of education of the general public with respect to science.

~Brad


Well, that is kind of annoying, but at the same time, I don't know a great deal about, for example, farming. Sure, I know the basics, and given some grain I could probably maintain a decent enough garden, but as for the advanced techniques of contemporary agribusiness, I have no idea. My point is that there really isn't any reason why most people would know the capabilities of SAMs. As a sidebar, a caller on a news show said something about a Stinger missile - of course, a Stinger is a specific type of man-portable SAM, but I submit that to the average American "Stinger" is to surface-to-air missiles as "Kleenex" is to tissues and "Q-Tip" is to cotton swabs.

Aporetic

Kizarvexis
2003-Feb-01, 06:20 PM
Time.com speculation on what might have cause the accident from their science correspondent Jeffrey Kluger.

'Aerodynamics May Explain Space Shuttle Breakup' (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,418462,00.html)


There are three possible scenarios that explain this event. The first, which I believe is the likeliest explanation, would be an aerodynamic structural breakup of the shuttle caused by it rolling at the wrong angle.

His most likely guess.

A second explanation might be a loss of tiles leading to a burn-through.

He thinks this is unlikely.

The last option is some kind of engine failure leading to fuel ignition.

He thinks an explosion of the small maneuvering engines would not likely be large enough to bring down the shuttle.

He also added this for the conspiracy nuts.

And just in case anybody was wondering, you can almost certainly rule out terrorism as a cause. This incident occurred well above the range of shoulder-fired missiles. And it would probably be easier to sneak a bomb onto Air Force One than to get one onto the shuttle.

Kizarvexis

Added: Fixed the link

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kizarvexis on 2003-02-01 13:55 ]</font>

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 06:23 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:20, Kizarvexis wrote:
He also added this for the conspiracy nuts.

And just in case anybody was wondering, you can almost certainly rule out terrorism as a cause. This incident occurred well above the range of shoulder-fired missiles. And it would probably be easier to sneak a bomb onto Air Force One than to get one onto the shuttle.

Kizarvexis


Alt.conspiracy* newsgroups must be ablaze now with idiots citing the above article as being "proof" that it's easy to smuggle a bomb onto Air Force One. "Time magazine stated that it was '(easy)...to smuggle a bomb onto Air Force One...'!"

Trust me, I've seen how the conspiracy clowns work.

Hell, we all have thanks to the Lunar Conspiracies board - forget Usenet man.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 06:24 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:13, Comixx wrote:


I'm highly annoyed that the media has to explain why it could not have been a plane or missile which caused this...it's an indication of the level of education of the general public with respect to science.

~Brad


Unfortunately there have already been reports of people taken to the hospital after picking up shuttle debris.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 06:25 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:20, Kizarvexis wrote:
Time.com speculation on what might have cause the accident from their science correspondent Jeffrey Kluger.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,418462,00.html


This should be reposted in the speculation/discussion thread. I think it would be more appropriate for discussion there.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-01, 06:25 PM
I've got to go see someone about a possible job, all. If anyone has anything specific to ask me or discuss with me feel free to hit my webpage (as shown in my profile) and drop me a line or just post a message here.

This is a very, very sad day for the United States, Israel and indeed the entire world. Our future hopes rely upon our ability to leave the nest, like all fledglings. We must, in the words of the Great Emancipator: "Endeavor to persevere."

g99
2003-Feb-01, 06:30 PM
Good luck bill. Talk to ya later.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 06:31 PM
We need to keep in mind that out of 113 flights we have only lost two. Thats a very good record. Amazingly so for how complex these machines are.

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 06:36 PM
I guess some of the things that seem basic to me are not, such as the altitude and speed of a shuttle re-entering being above the capabilities of the military hardware we might use to attack it...maybe because I have more than a passing interest I guess.

I dont feel very sorry for the yucks who picked up debris, even if they hadnt heard warnings they had to realize (from watching prime-time TV you can even get this premise) that it's evidence and it's position may be important. Anyone who has watched any of the crime drama's on TV know about contaminating a scene...oh well.

What a tragedy that we are discussing this. I remember the Challenger disaster from 6th grade...we were actually watching the launch live when it exploded. I dont remember doing anything else that day except sitting in class while all the teachers watched with tears in their eyes. Now I'm the one with tears...

~Brad

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 06:36 PM
FOX News is showing a huge glob of wreckage. (1:40pm) It's all black cinders. . . .

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:36 PM
Bush is about to make a statement. Let's hope he gives an indication that he intends to continue the program.

Mainframes
2003-Feb-01, 06:37 PM
Finally got to my computer after seeing this on the news. I don't often cry but when I saw this it brought a tear to my eye.

My heart goes out to the families of the crew, i've lost close members of my family and I know how heart wrenching this must be.

I truly hope that the space program will continue, the astronauts knew the risks they were taking, and frankly I think it would be an insult to them if the manned exploration of space was scrapped. We owe it to those seven to continue onto bigger and better things.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 06:38 PM
I agree James.

And as i said before. At least they died doing something they loved.

Rodina
2003-Feb-01, 06:41 PM
On 2003-02-01 11:46, Bill S. wrote:


On 2003-02-01 11:44, Conrad wrote:
My God. What can I say that's not trite?
I remember the Challenger disaster, and never thought anything like it would happen again. Condolences to the families of those killed. I feel as bad as I did during the Kursk incident.

And a thousand firebolts upon the heads of the b.s. merchants who are probably crawling out of the woodwork even as I type. @$*&#! vermin.


Indeed. I'd like to punch Bart Sibrel this morning, just on general principals.


Form a posse and I'm in.

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 06:41 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:36, Glom wrote:
Bush is about to make a statement. Let's hope he gives an indication that he intends to continue the program.


The Space Program WILL not be shut down. All morning everyone has been saying that everyone realizes that its a dangerous buisness and that accidents are going to happen. The feeling I get from all the experts and astronuaghts is that this is only a setback.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:41 PM
On BBCNEWS24, they said Columbia had made 40 flights. My data says 25. How many has it made?

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:42 PM
Me too.

Jigsaw
2003-Feb-01, 06:47 PM
If anybody hasn't had enough, here's something to really creep you out. Interview with them last week on the anniversary of the Challenger. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_update_030127.html

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. -- Shuttle Columbia's orbiting scientists took some time Monday to talk with friends aboard the International Space Station, while mission managers on the ground prepared to recognize an anniversary remembering fallen friends.

< snip >

At the time of the conversation Columbia was northeast of Brazil over the South Atlantic Ocean while the station was over the eastern area of Ukraine, north of the Black Sea.

The two vehicles are in very different orbits, in no danger of collision, but they have come close enough for Husband to have spotted the station once. The ISS crew have not seen the shuttle but were hopeful they would get a chance before Columbia lands on Saturday. Geez.

We need a different emoticon--the " /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif " just isn't working. How about this?

http://toddlerstoday.com/graphics/kidcry.jpg

Rodina
2003-Feb-01, 06:47 PM
More seriously, I think Miles O'Brien is doing a pretty good job on CNN, but he started talking about tire pressure as an issue (apparently the last communication between Houston and Columbia mentioned that tire pressue was good). I think that strikes me as unlikely.

My sense of this is that the shuttle can perform with a few tiles missing -- the airflow still works, but if you lose more than a couple, it will tear itself right off like a big zipper. What I could see from the main video was that there were first a couple of small pieces coming off... followed by a delay and then a much bigger break up. Hard to know what that means exactly, but a failure of the wing or a control surface or such could explain the subsequent break up.

Also, for what it's worth, Columbia is quite a bit heavier than the other three shuttles, metal fatigue could be more of a factor than the others.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rodina on 2003-02-01 13:48 ]</font>

GrapesOfWrath
2003-Feb-01, 06:51 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:41, Glom wrote:
On BBCNEWS24, they said Columbia had made 40 flights. My data says 25. How many has it made?

Are you counting missions? Were there test flights?

James_Digriz
2003-Feb-01, 06:54 PM
Not so creepy actually. I would think the first shuttle disaster comes up quite often in conversation. Im sure its been on every astronaughts mind every time they stepped on board a shuttle.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:54 PM
Grapes, I'm counting missions.

Who wants to take bets on how long it will take before the Dark Lord Kaysing starts saying Ilan Ramon was going to talk about stars in space?

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 06:56 PM
The presidents about to talk... Let's all listen to what he say's...

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:56 PM
What's up with transportation this month?

First the Circle Line goes down with that derailment, then snowfall paralyses London, now space travel is pretty much mothballed.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:57 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:56, Gemstone wrote:
The presidents about to talk... Let's all listen to what he say's...


If they can sort out their sound problems.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 06:59 PM
BBCNEWS24 is making a big deal out of sonic booms heard over Texas. I know sonic booms are normal, but is this special because they're not supposed to happen so early?

Kizarvexis
2003-Feb-01, 07:00 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:59, Glom wrote:
BBCNEWS24 is making a big deal out of sonic booms heard over Texas. I know sonic booms are normal, but is this special because they're not supposed to happen so early?


I guessing because they were so loud.

Kizarvexis

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 07:02 PM
Whew-hoo!

Pres. Bush confirms resolve to keep the space program exploration going!!

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 07:02 PM
Our journey in space will go on.


He ain't mothballing NASA.

SKY
2003-Feb-01, 07:04 PM
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif I just found out about this. I remember the challenger tragedy very well and personally, I knew that with any dangerous occupation there is bound to be accidents. No amount of safe planning in the world can keep any occupation 100% accident proof. So I knew, given a certain amount of time, another tragedy would strike. Deep down however, I hoped another would not happen.

As far as space exploration goes, I have faith that the sensible people of not just the US but the world would not let this deter the need for space exploration. Space exloration has become a crowning achievement for the human race, and as painful as it is, there has to be a possitive outcome to this tragedy. A negative outcome would insult the memory of all who have given there lives for the pursuit of space exploration.

My heart and prayers go out to the family and friends of those astronauts and to all who strive to keep a dream alive. God speed.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 07:07 PM
Yes, the bulk of the speech was a eulogy for those lost, but he did emphasize that we will persevere and continue.

It's becoming more obvious to me that the public attitude is one of overcoming this obstacle rather than giving up. I find that quite heartening.

Donnie B.
2003-Feb-01, 07:08 PM
Glom, this was flight #28 for Columbia, according to several sources.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 07:11 PM
I'm missing three then. I'll check my jotter documents.

Roy Batty
2003-Feb-01, 07:12 PM
On 2003-02-01 13:56, Glom wrote:
What's up with transportation this month?

First the Circle Line goes down with that derailment, then snowfall paralyses London, now space travel is pretty much mothballed.


Actually it was the Central Line (just for sake of facts)

Onto more serious events, A bl**dy awful thing to happen, spent most of afternoon stunned. Hope the shuttle space flight program isnt set back by much /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 07:17 PM
It was good to hear the president say that the space program will continue... We've got a good man in the White House...

g99
2003-Feb-01, 07:18 PM
I would like to applaud CNN (i have not watched the other networks yet) for how it is dealing with its tragedy. They are spending lots of time portraying the Astronauts and their lives in a good way. Thye are not trying to speculate too much. They are giving lots of time to real experts (former astronauts, NASA employees), not the hire a expert many other networks use.

Thank you CNN for giving it the right angle and i applaud you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 14:20 ]</font>

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 07:20 PM
Woah! The BA was supposed to speak on Planet X (http://www.randi.org/jref/conferenceSchedule.html) at the Azazing Conference today. I wonder if they continued as planned or put things on hold? One thing's for sure, his report on the conference is going to be a lot different than anticipated. What a bummer.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 07:20 PM
On 2003-02-01 14:17, Gemstone wrote:
It was good to hear the president say that the space program will continue... We've got a good man in the White House...


Yes it is good he is going for the space program. But i would not go too far and say he is a "good man in the White House". He is still a moron and our economy is still screwed. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Roy Batty
2003-Feb-01, 07:23 PM
I'd echo that on the whole, spent most of time watching CNN too (as well as our local cable BBC & ITV) & was pleased by their anti speculative coverage

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 07:23 PM
Hey g99 - can we keep the president-bashing out of this, please?

Gemstone
2003-Feb-01, 07:25 PM
On 2003-02-01 14:20, g99 wrote:


On 2003-02-01 14:17, Gemstone wrote:
It was good to hear the president say that the space program will continue... We've got a good man in the White House...


Yes it is good he is going for the space program. But i would not go too far and say he is a "good man in the White House". He is still a moron and our economy is still screwed. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Please! Let's not turn this thread into political bashing, no matter what your opinion is of George W.... There's alot of scary and tragic stuff going on in the world right now and we're only going to get thru it all if we stick together...

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 07:28 PM
I was only 1 year old when STS 51-L was launched. I grew up learning about that disaster and Apollo 13 all as history. It's quite surreal to log on to BABB and find this out as it happened. (it was similar to coming home a finding BBCNEWS24 had taken over BBCONE to cover September 11)

g99
2003-Feb-01, 07:29 PM
sorry about that. It wont happen again. My apologies. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif I am again sorry.

He did handle it very well and i did think it was one of his best speechess i have ever heard.

[edited for clarity and spelling]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 14:31 ]</font>

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 07:34 PM
I'm watching this on BBCNEWS24. They're doing a pretty good job, talking to the experts from about the joint, being very sympathetic.

The annoying thing is that every hour they give fifteen minutes over to sport.

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-01, 07:39 PM
On 2003-02-01 14:29, g99 wrote:

He did handle it very well and i did think it was one of his best speechess i have ever heard.



Does anyone know where his speech might be archived on the web? I haven't heard it yet and I don't have a TV.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 07:41 PM
Who knows maybe this might instill furvor into the public. People will again realize that people are risking their lives for their country and the world. Maybe this might instill in people some patriotisim for the program and for other counries porgrams. Thye will realize it is not a hummdrumm every day type of thing like getting into your car. People can get hurt. I really hope that their memories will not be tarnished by the public forgetting them or by the public shutting down the program.

As you always hear in the movies, the person who passed on will always want the widow to move on to bigger and better things. We should do the same.

Those astronauts are true heros. They risk their lives everyday for a public, a nation, and a world who they love.

I am nowhere near a religious person. I go to temple only on high holidays, but...God bless you...

[eddited out a redundant paragraph)
_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 14:41 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 14:48 ]</font>

SKY
2003-Feb-01, 07:41 PM
On 2003-02-01 14:39, Laser Jock wrote:


On 2003-02-01 14:29, g99 wrote:

He did handle it very well and i did think it was one of his best speechess i have ever heard.



Does anyone know where his speech might be archived on the web? I haven't heard it yet and I don't have a TV.



I'm sure alot of the new's sites will have it soon. Like MSNBC.com, CNN.com, ect.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 07:45 PM
from CNN.com:

"Bush to families: 'Entire nation grieves with you'

My fellow Americans, this day has brought terrible news and great sadness to our country. At 9 o'clock this morning, Mission Control in Houston lost contact with our space shuttle Columbia. A short time later, debris was seen falling from the skies above Texas.

The Columbia's lost. There are no survivors.

Onboard was a crew of seven -- Colonel Rick Husband, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Anderson, Commander Laurel Clark, Captain David Brown, Commander William McCool, Dr. Kalpana Chawla, and Ilan Ramon a colonel in the Israeli air force.

These men and women assumed great risk in this service to all humanity. In an age when space flight has come to seem almost routine, it is easy to overlook the dangers of travel by rocket and the difficulties of navigating the fierce outer atmosphere of the earth.

These astronauts knew the dangers, and they faced them willingly, knowing they had a high and noble purpose in life. Because of their courage and daring and idealism, we will miss them all the more.

All Americans today are thinking, as well, of the families of these men and women who have been given this sudden shock and grief. You're not alone. Our entire nation grieves with you. And those you loved will always have the respect and gratitude of this country.

The cause in which they died will continue. Mankind is led into the darkness beyond our world by the inspiration of discovery and the longing to understand. Our journey into space will go on.

In the skies today, we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope.

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

The same creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today. The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth, yet we can pray that all are safely home.

May God bless the grieving families, and may God continue to bless America. "

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 07:51 PM
Before it's July launch was scrubbed, I downloaded the mission's presskit. I never read it though before now. Often, 'Bays' in the Payload bay are referred to but I've searched all over the NASA website and have yet to actually find out what these 'Bays' are. I was wondering, what are they?

Eric McLoughlin
2003-Feb-01, 07:56 PM
BBC News 24 are using one of their science correspondents David Whitehouse who has won awards for his reporting. He's pretty clued up. CNN's anchor has been excellent- knowledgeable about the science and technology and setting the right tone. UK Sky News had had the worst so called expert. He's been trying to describe aspects of the Shuttle using a side-view drawing but making fundamental mistakes. He pointed out the Shuttle's main engines as the engines used to fire the de-orbit burn and he ringed the crew hatch window as one of the attitude control thrusters - what a wally.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 08:00 PM
In a few minutes NASA will have a technical briefing on the tragedy.


Lets hope they give us some insight on what happened.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 08:00 PM
Was his name David Percy by any chance?

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 08:03 PM
BBCNEWS24 showed some Mir picks while describing the International Space Station, giving the impression that Mir was the International Space Station. Muppets!

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 08:06 PM
CNN has a correspondent in Nacogdoches now, and I'm so relieved. The reports seem to be that people are being very cautious and respectful of the wreckage, even roping off pieces by themselves. It looks like my fears are unfounded.

But it looks like a lot of small pieces scattered over a huuge area. It's going to be a big clean-up job.

SKY
2003-Feb-01, 08:11 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:06, David Hall wrote:
CNN has a correspondent in Nacogdoches now, and I'm so relieved. The reports seem to be that people are being very cautious and respectful of the wreckage, even roping off pieces by themselves. It looks like my fears are unfounded.

But it looks like a lot of small pieces scattered over a huuge area. It's going to be a big clean-up job.



NBC news just reported that alot of the lighter material debris was caught in the jet stream, and to expect a fall of debris for up to 10 hours. I don't know how accurate that is, but that's what they have reported.

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:12 PM
The President's speech is on FoxNews.com:

Fixed link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77257,00.html)

My prayers and my sympathy go out to the families and friends of the astronauts and all connected with this flight.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Curtmudgeon on 2003-02-01 15:13 ]</font>

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:16 PM
Also, the Nacogdoches area is "family" territory for me (my maternal grandfather came from Martinsville, just outside Nac). Although I don't have any particularly close relatives there now, I do hope that nobody was injured by any of the falling debris. I read one report of a dentist who found a piece that came in through the roof of his office; imagine that coming in someone's home, or car as they're driving.

The () Curtmudgeon

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 08:17 PM
The NASA technical briefing is coming up in just a few minutes, according to CNN.

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:23 PM
Commander of the Israeli Air Force, Dan Halutz, says that he definitely expects there to be another Israeli astronaut in the future:

Jerusalem Post Article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1044093792654)

So they, also, have the "this isn't going to stop us" attitude.

[Edited to add:] I think it worth copying this quote from the article, about an email Halutz recieved from Ramon aboard the shuttle just 24 hours (or so) ago:



Halutz quoted from an e-mail message he says he received from Ramon just 24 hours ago.

"It is a great privelege for me to be in the Air Force family for more than 30 years now and an honor to represent al of you here in space," Ramon had written to Halutz.

"And he we are in space," Ramon added.

Halutz turned to reporters and said: "I consider this a call to the air force to continue wtih this mission."


The () Curtmudgeon

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Curtmudgeon on 2003-02-01 15:25 ]</font>

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-01, 08:24 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:12, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
The President's speech is on FoxNews.com:

Fixed link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77257,00.html)

My prayers and my sympathy go out to the families and friends of the astronauts and all connected with this flight.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Curtmudgeon on 2003-02-01 15:13 ]</font>


Thanks. You could see that the President was fighting back tears at the end. As was I.

HawkHunter
2003-Feb-01, 08:29 PM
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tmcdowell/index.html

little something i composed in memory of the lost explorers

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:35 PM
I'm not finding any English-language news site from an Arab country that carries a "Breaking News" or similar section. Does anyone here know of one, as unfortunately the Arabic sites are beyond me? I'm not interested in tabloid sites (if any), only true news sites.

The () Curtmudgeon

stargirl
2003-Feb-01, 08:41 PM
ABC just announced that there is debris from Columbia on sale at Ebay.

Are these people sick or what?

informant
2003-Feb-01, 08:42 PM
My sympathies to all involved.
I was a kid when the Challenger accident happened, and it's sad to see it happen again.
This is a dark day for all those who love space (as I do).

Requiescat in pace Columbia.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: informant on 2003-02-01 15:53 ]</font>

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 08:45 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:41, stargirl wrote:

ABC just announced that there is debris from Columbia on sale at Ebay.

Are these people sick or what?


I hope they immediately track these yo-yos down and throw the book at them. That's just reprehensible.

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:48 PM
[Indian-born astronaut Kalpana Chawla] was an accomplished astronaut and NASA is a robust organization. It will sort out the problem and spring back," said the head of India's Space Research Organization, Krishnaswamy Kasturirangan.

Full article here (http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030201_1396.html)

The () Curtmudgeon

The Curtmudgeon
2003-Feb-01, 08:57 PM
(I hope people don't mind that I seem to be scattershooting a bit with my posts; I just thought that it would be helpful to some to post various international viewpoints and news items concerning the tragedy.)

Russian space flight to ISS to continue as planned for Sunday; Russia might take over some US flights to ISS while NASA investigates Columbia crash: Full article here. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20030201_335.html)

The () Curtmudgeon

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 09:09 PM
Now they've clarified that there are NO hardened "black boxes" on the shuttle, but there are a number of regular data recorders. If any of them survived, of course they'll take a look at them.

They also do not have the ability to do unplanned spacewalks, inspections, or tile repair in space.

And to add to my last post, several sensors suddenly cut out on the left wing, as if the wires were cut.

(Whoops, wrong thread. I meant to post this in the speculation thread)

_________________
...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Hall on 2003-02-01 16:11 ]</font>

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 09:12 PM
Although they're keen to play down the launch foam incident, there is a strong correlation with the foam hitting and damaging a tile on the wing where the most heating occurs. It that was where the weakness was, it would account for the pattern of sensor cutout moving through the spacecraft from the port wing.

David Hall
2003-Feb-01, 09:19 PM
On 2003-02-01 16:12, Glom wrote:

Although they're keen to play down the launch foam incident, there is a strong correlation with the foam hitting and damaging a tile on the wing where the most heating occurs. It that was where the weakness was, it would account for the pattern of sensor cutout moving through the spacecraft from the port wing.


I noted that too. It does seem to correlate rather well. But we have to be cautious about it until we get the full picture.

Personally, my first guess is that the foam piece knocked off enough tiles somewhere around the wheel wells to allow a burn-through. That's just my speculation though.

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 09:22 PM
Have any of the other news stations shown the field with the large black area ofincinerated debris?

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 09:22 PM
This is the 113th flight of the Space Shuttle!

The superstities are going to be all over this.

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 09:23 PM
On 2003-02-01 16:22, nebularain wrote:
Have any of the other news stations shown the field with the large black area ofincinerated debris?


We saw it on BBCNEWS24.

Kizarvexis
2003-Feb-01, 09:28 PM
On 2003-02-01 16:22, Glom wrote:
This is the 113th flight of the Space Shuttle!

The superstities are going to be all over this.


Of course they would go nuts over any of the following as well;

26, 39, 52, 65, 78, 91, 104, 117, etc (all factors of 13)

121, 112, 103, 94, 85, 76, 67, 58, 49, 31, etc (all numerals in the number add up to 13)

Any other type of number massaging. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Kizarvexis

Rodina
2003-Feb-01, 09:33 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:06, David Hall wrote:
CNN has a correspondent in Nacogdoches now, and I'm so relieved. The reports seem to be that people are being very cautious and respectful of the wreckage, even roping off pieces by themselves. It looks like my fears are unfounded.

But it looks like a lot of small pieces scattered over a huuge area. It's going to be a big clean-up job.



Every Texan with whom I ever discussed the space program proved to be both proud and protective of it. That they'd rally to take care of NASA property doesn't surprise me.

Still, good work from the good folks of Texas.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 09:42 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:29, HawkHunter wrote:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tmcdowell/index.html

little something i composed in memory of the lost explorers

Very respectfull. Thanks. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

g99
2003-Feb-01, 09:47 PM
just horrible:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?
cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=
1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=
shuttle+debris
[edited link for length continues on next line]

E-bay thankfully took them off and did not allow them, but just the fact that people tried to sell them really makes me mad.


_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 16:49 ]</font>

poorleno
2003-Feb-01, 09:48 PM
On 2003-02-01 15:12, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
The President's speech is on FoxNews.com:
Fixed link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77257,00.html)


Damn that's just so sad. Although I didn't like the speech much. Did anyone else find it chewy? Bush should fire his speechwriters.

Oh and for those people who make fun of this (with jokes like "what does nasa stand for ? - Need another Seven Astronauts") - up yours.

Peace.

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 10:01 PM
On 2003-02-01 16:47, g99 wrote:
just horrible:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?
cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=
1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=
shuttle+debris
[edited link for length continues on next line]

E-bay thankfully took them off and did not allow them, but just the fact that people tried to sell them really makes me mad.

The folks on Fark went batty over this too...apparently it's a piece of a garden hose. Also, in the description it's supposed to have an address of a German Quake IRC channel inscribed in it. The lat/long that the article came from is in central Germany also.

Yet another hoax. More sad than this obvious hoax is the actual sales going up for "memorabelia" like Space Shuttle plastic models...I saw one that closed at over $300...for a plastic model kit! Some people...

~Brad

g99
2003-Feb-01, 10:02 PM
i also saw many people trying to sell domain names like Spaceshuttledisaster.com or almost $10,000 dollars. They were taken off E-bay too.

g99
2003-Feb-01, 10:07 PM
ohh i am mad now...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3004771085&category=3453


Oooppss..Never mind it is challenger. I thought it was columbia. Not as mad. But the fact that someone is profeting off of it still is evil.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 17:15 ]</font>

Glom
2003-Feb-01, 10:15 PM
Find them and kill them!

nebularain
2003-Feb-01, 10:26 PM
On 2003-02-01 16:48, poorleno wrote:


On 2003-02-01 15:12, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
The President's speech is on FoxNews.com:
Fixed link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77257,00.html)


Damn that's just so sad. Although I didn't like the speech much. Did anyone else find it chewy? Bush should fire his speechwriters.


I completely disagree. I found the speech encouraging and inspiring.



Oh and for those people who make fun of this (with jokes like "what does nasa stand for ? - Need another Seven Astronauts") - up yours.


That one I can agree with (only I'd use different language, but that's just me).

Edit: I hated it when people did that to the Challenger.

_________________
The lesser lights to rule the night, glimmers of glory, distant suns

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2003-02-01 17:28 ]</font>

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-01, 10:47 PM
I always have mixed feelings about speeches of this nature (that is, Bush's speech of this afternoon). On the one hand, I recognize the domestic politics necessity of delivering such a speech. On the other hand: 1) I don't need comfort from him; 2) As an atheist, I feel alienated and insulted by his aggressive Christian fundamentalism. As a eulogy, it wasn't bad, though, for the time they had in which to prepare it.

Aporetic

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 11:15 PM
On 2003-02-01 17:47, aporetic_r wrote:
I always have mixed feelings about speeches of this nature (that is, Bush's speech of this afternoon). On the one hand, I recognize the domestic politics necessity of delivering such a speech. On the other hand: 1) I don't need comfort from him; 2) As an atheist, I feel alienated and insulted by his aggressive Christian fundamentalism. As a eulogy, it wasn't bad, though, for the time they had in which to prepare it.

Aporetic



I completely agree with you. I am also an atheist, and things like this border on offensive to me. When I was in the military and they'd try to force me to go to "Prayer Breakfasts" in order to get good reviews, I was in an uproar [edit: only mention this as a allusion to the increasing Christian slant on the government]. I know people want to be comforted, but religion isnt always the answer. And, though it was a lovely quote, I didnt see the relation between the scripture he quoted and the space program beyond the fact that both have the word "stars" in their documentation.

~Brad

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Comixx on 2003-02-01 18:19 ]</font>

2003-Feb-01, 11:16 PM
Offensive...?
Is that all you think or care about? How all of this talk offends you? You make me sick...

GodSpeed Columbia & Crew...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: trusty on 2003-02-01 18:19 ]</font>

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 11:26 PM
A personal attack was not warrented.

Roy Batty
2003-Feb-01, 11:29 PM
Woh! lets just calm down here a minute. While i agree with the above opinions on the speech, i think its not the right forum (or even board) to discuss them. The point is where all upset (well i am!) so lets not get this thread into a flame war ok.

Bill Thmpson
2003-Feb-01, 11:29 PM
Here is what happened:

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/2003/02/01/video538954.rm

SKY
2003-Feb-01, 11:42 PM
Guys-

There are still people on this board who believe in religion as well as astronomy. Could we be a little respectful of everybody's feelings and not discuss religious issues. This is an astronomy board. I will keep my opinions regarding religion to myself, I would expect the same.

Comixx
2003-Feb-01, 11:48 PM
This is the last I shall say of it: My comment was regarding the President, official speeches/activities, and religion's roles in them. Not religion itself. I respect others' beliefs and expect that same respect in return. I'm sorry if my belief that religion doesnt belong in official statements meant to be homogenous to the entirety of the United States offended some here.

Again, this is the last time I'll ever post about religion or politics. I should have known better...I'm just a little worked up today and not thinking straight. Sorry.

~Brad

ljbrs
2003-Feb-02, 12:08 AM
This is all so very, very sad -- tragic.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

2003-Feb-02, 12:22 AM
This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that sometimes, SOMETIMES you have to put your feelings aside to respect the loss of others. The world isn't always going to go your way.
Those seven aboard Columbia don't have the luxury of being "offended"...

nuff' said

Colt
2003-Feb-02, 12:37 AM
I woke up about an hour ago and heard about this.. I remember my mother waking me up the morning of September 11th and being told we were under attack.. This affects me more though because of my deep interest in space and science. I was born in 1986, the year Challenger exploded, probably one of the things that began my interest in the shuttle. I wanted to know why something like this had gone wrong. Why was it allowed..

I am saddened, but this also makes me angry. We should have replaced the shuttles years ago, developed new ones. They undergo tremendous stresses and are very complicated machines. Something like this would eventually happen. I am very upset at the people that have been cutting funding to NASA and derailing the newer technologies and shuttle designs.

Well, my regrets to the families, I just spent the last hour or so watching TV and going through this thread so I am not sure what else to add. -Colt

Graham2001
2003-Feb-02, 12:43 AM
I just saw the news about Columbia, my sympathy goes out to the US members of the list.

Lets hope the preachers/post-modernists don't use this to give space to China.

Graham, Western Australia

Kaptain K
2003-Feb-02, 12:45 AM
The downside of working nights - I wake up, log on and this thread is 8 pages long!

My condolences to the families of the crew. My thoughts and prayers are with them.

If I might add, that while I am neither Christian nor Atheist, and am mildly bothered by GW's strong use of his personal beliefs, I am much more bothered by those who are offended by it.

aporetic_r
2003-Feb-02, 12:50 AM
Lets hope the preachers/post-modernists don't use this to give space to China.

Graham, Western Australia


At the risk of further offending those who don't want to branch of into side discussions of arguable relevance, I'd like to ask you to clarify what you mean by that. I don't intend to ask this question in a testy way, I'm just not sure what you mean there.


On a different topic: Yup, this is an astronomy board, so I won't respond to the various comments made earlier in response to a post in which I mentioned religion. But I'm always very interested in discussing such matters with all manner of reasonable people, so if you'd like to continue debating the content, context, intent, etc. of my message, please e-mail me at aporetic_@yahoo.com or message me at the same address.

Aporetic

[Edited to include the last paragraph.]


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: aporetic_r on 2003-02-01 19:53 ]</font>

AstroGman
2003-Feb-02, 12:55 AM
No,I don,t think that the manned space flight will end because of this tragedy,as bad as it is.Here,s why: Those astronauts knew that something could happen to them,And yet they still wanted to accomplish the mission,which basically they did.And they would not want to see the program come to an end on account of them.Two,President Bush said today that we will stay the course,essentially.Three,I took part of an unscientific poll at,I believe,cnn in which 88 percent of the respondents said that we should continue in spaceflight in spite of the risks.Gus Grissom said shortly before he died that "If we die,we want people to accept it."And that,s what they would want us to do,accept their sacrifices.Not that what happened isn,t sad.It is.But if the astronauts could speak,they would say don,t stop the entire program on account of us.Just as I would say that.And that,s what should happen.

Graham2001
2003-Feb-02, 01:21 AM
On 2003-02-01 19:50, aporetic_r wrote:


Lets hope the preachers/post-modernists don't use this to give space to China.

Graham, Western Australia

At the risk of further offending those who don't want to branch of into side discussions of arguable relevance, I'd like to ask you to clarify what you mean by that. I don't intend to ask this question in a testy way, I'm just not sure what you mean there.


The preachers don't like space travel because it takes money away from 'faith-based initiatives'.

The post-modernists don't like space travel because of it's phallocentric (look at rockets)/colonialist symbolism.

This is my last post on this line of talk, (e.g. about the two topics above), it must suffice to say that when I heard the news I was very depressed, and all sorts of things happen/are said when one is under stress.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Graham2001 on 2003-02-01 21:09 ]</font>

Timm
2003-Feb-02, 02:12 AM
Rally sad...
I can only hope they never realized what happened. I just hope NASA can learn something from that accident, and I hope they don't stop/cancel the manned space programm.

Doodler
2003-Feb-02, 02:37 AM
Actually, its illegal to possess/sell items that could potentially be a part of Challenger as well. Its twofold. One, its POGUS (Property of the Government of the United States) and secondly, I agree with whatsisname on Fox, its bloody ghoulish..

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 02:41 AM
On 2003-02-01 21:37, Doodler wrote:
Actually, its illegal to possess/sell items that could potentially be a part of Challenger as well. Its twofold. One, its POGUS (Property of the Government of the United States) and secondly, I agree with whatsisname on Fox, its bloody ghoulish..


Third, all pieces of debris is part of an investigation.

g99
2003-Feb-02, 02:49 AM
Are you making reference to the EBAY sells Doodler? ON the ebay site they said they will turn in anyone trying to sell columbia stuff.

But the shame some people have. Search for space shuttle with the latest posts first. There several hundred new additions to ebay selling memorabilia. Some at very, very high prices. Any way to make a buck i guess. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif

Doodler
2003-Feb-02, 02:52 AM
Sorry guys, i was refering to the attempted sale of Challenger items, not Columbia. I think its safe to say that investigation is long closed, its just the other issue I mentioned about the government conidering those pieces to be federal property, even at this long past date, that make it illegal.

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 02:57 AM
On 2003-02-01 21:52, Doodler wrote:
Sorry guys, i was refering to the attempted sale of Challenger items, not Columbia. I think its safe to say that investigation is long closed, its just the other issue I mentioned about the government conidering those pieces to be federal property, even at this long past date, that make it illegal.


Sorry- I guess I read through your post too quickly and didn't notice Challenger and thought Columbia. My apologies. Yes I believe the Challenger investigation is over.

g99
2003-Feb-02, 03:00 AM
While we are sort of on the subject...Will they try to put back the shuttle to figure out what went wrong with what they find? Or are the pieces too small? Some news sources are saying that the biggest piece found so far is only a couple of feet long.

I Can you find out what went wrong with only a few hundred scraps of the shuttle?

Even if they do find all of the pieces it will take years to find them all since the debris area is so large.

I feel sorry for the investigators. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif



On a both light and very sad note. They have found one of the bodies. At least that persons family can rest knowing they have found him/her. Rest in peace.

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 03:10 AM
On 2003-02-01 22:00, g99 wrote:

While we are sort of on the subject...Will they try to put back the shuttle to figure out what went wrong with what they find? Or are the pieces too small? Some news sources are saying that the biggest piece found so far is only a couple of feet long.



I heard in a news story that it is there intention to take all the debris and lay it out much like they do in plane crashes to determine the cause. Probably in a large hanger in an airport somewhere. As tedious as it is, sometimes that's the only way to find the clues.

nebularain
2003-Feb-02, 03:25 AM
I don't know how to do a photo link from the slide shows, but the USA Today website (http://www.usatoday.com) and the Fox New website (http://www.foxnews.com) both have slide shows of the Columbia's mission that include a picture of the smoking black incinerated debris in the field that I had mentioned earlier, in case you hadn't seen it yet. I can't imagine what it came from.

EDIT: USA Today's website has a video that includes it (actually the video is titled "Burning Debris") and the Fox News website calls it a "Photo Essay".

_________________
The lesser lights to rule the night, glimmers of glory, distant suns

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2003-02-01 22:31 ]</font>

g99
2003-Feb-02, 03:37 AM
On 2003-02-01 22:25, nebularain wrote:
I don't know how to do a photo link from the slide shows, but the USA Today website (http://www.usatoday.com) and the Fox New website (http://www.foxnews.com) both have slide shows of the Columbia's mission that include a picture of the smoking black incinerated debris in the field that I had mentioned earlier, in case you hadn't seen it yet. I can't imagine what it came from.

EDIT: USA Today's website has a video that includes it (actually the video is titled "Burning Debris") and the Fox News website calls it a "Photo Essay".

_________________
The lesser lights to rule the night, glimmers of glory, distant suns

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2003-02-01 22:31 ]</font>


Do you mean this?:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/sc/081201spaceshuttle&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=1&a=0

dgruss23
2003-Feb-02, 03:38 AM
President Bush said the following:

"The cause in which they died will continue," Bush said. "Mankind is led into the darkness beyond our world by the inspiration of discovery and the longing to understand. Our journey into space will go on."

I can think of no more profound way to honor to the crew of the Columbia, the crew of the Challenger, and all other brave souls that have lost their lives in the the quest to expand the human horizon into space.

nebularain
2003-Feb-02, 04:25 AM
Yes, g99 - the picture is in there. Unfortunately, you can't see the two men and the dog who were walking around next to teh debris to give you a size perspective. I'll give a hint, they would have been hard to see in the video footage on t.v. if they had not been moving.

g99
2003-Feb-02, 04:57 AM
oops they changes the other one...

here is the link (hopefully) to the pic itself.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/sc/081201spaceshuttle&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=1&e=6&a=0

I think this is the one talked about.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-01 23:58 ]</font>

g99
2003-Feb-02, 05:00 AM
Does anyone know if there were any animals that were on the shuttle as experiments?

Mokele Mbembe
2003-Feb-02, 05:13 AM
http://www.spacedaily.com/2003/030202022257.1id0r9sm.html

nebularain
2003-Feb-02, 05:57 AM
I posted a link to the science experiments that were going on in the shuttle in this thread:

http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=3669&forum=2&0

The link I posted,

http://www.starsacademy.com/sts107/

isn't coming up right now, though. But, yes, there were. I specifically remember ants, and I think I read about some species of monkey?

liglats
2003-Feb-02, 05:59 AM
Wow. What a day.

Does anyone know if a book of condolence is being set up?

My girlfriend and I were just going to the cinema, but before we left we wanted to check the times on the web. The first thing that opened on my screen was the Columbia disaster. She said that it is the first time she has ever seen me completely stunned.

I was 10 when Challenger exploded, and I sincerely hoped that we would never see another space disaster. My thoughts go out to the families of the brave astronauts. There is no denying that space travel is dangerous, regardless of the steps you take to minimise the risks. I hope that this does not set back space flight, and that we will never cease to reach for the stars.

Rest in peace, and may your names live for ever more.

James D. Bissett
Scotland.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-02, 06:08 AM
The following is an email from one of the shuttle crew, earlier this week. I questioned whether it was in good taste to post it, but I think that it captures the excitement of a shuttle crewman on his first flight. My prayers go out to him and his family, as well as the other crewmembers and their families.

While we mourn the loss of the shuttle crew, let's not forget that life is a balance between risk and reward. Throughout our history, we have benefited by the risks taken by a few, on behalf of many.

To the Shuttle crew, Godspeed.


Greetings from 150 miles above the Earth! My apologies up-front for not writing each of you personally. The tempo is very high, and what few precious free moments I do have, I try to use absorbing the overwhelming smorgasbord of new experiences. There is so much to share with you! Too much to write ... so hang tight until post-flight when I can bring photos and videos to accompany the stories. This has been an unbelievable adventure!

I hope you enjoyed watching the launch, and thanks for hanging tough through the many delays. More later when we return ...

Willie

PS - As I write, we just experienced a sunset over the Pacific, just East of Chile. I'm sitting on the flight deck in the CDR seat (front right) with a view of the Earth moving gracefully by. Sunsets and sunrises from space come every 45 minutes, and last only about 30 seconds, but the colors are stunning. In a single view I see looking out at the edge of the Earth - red at the horizon line, blending to orange, then yellow; followed by a thin white line, then light blue, gradually turning to dark blue, then various gradually darker shades of gray, then black with a million stars above.

It's breath-taking!

g99
2003-Feb-02, 06:38 AM
Bill did you know him? If you did i am deeply sorry. And thanks for posting it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-02 01:38 ]</font>

Bill S.
2003-Feb-02, 06:51 AM
On 2003-02-02 01:38, g99 wrote:
Bill did you know him? If you did i am deeply sorry. And thanks for posting it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-02 01:38 ]</font>


No no. This was something I gleaned from the web. I probably should've linked straight to it.

Celestial Mechanic
2003-Feb-02, 06:57 AM
On 2003-02-01 10:53, Bill S. wrote:

Those who follow the Walter Mondale mindset are likely slapping their knees and grinning with glee this morning. Now all of that "wasted" money can be put into their pet failures.

Just a reminder to all: just four days before the Challenger disaster Voyager 2 had its encounter with Uranus. The coverage of the disaster pretty much kept Voyager from receiving the attention that it might otherwise have had. A few months later the Reagan administration wanted to shut down the Voyager mission before it got to Neptune. Let's face it: it is not a partisan issue, politicians are much too short-sighted--they only see as far as the next election.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-02, 07:33 AM
On 2003-02-02 01:57, Celestial Mechanic wrote:

On 2003-02-01 10:53, Bill S. wrote:

Those who follow the Walter Mondale mindset are likely slapping their knees and grinning with glee this morning. Now all of that "wasted" money can be put into their pet failures.

Just a reminder to all: just four days before the Challenger disaster Voyager 2 had its encounter with Uranus. The coverage of the disaster pretty much kept Voyager from receiving the attention that it might otherwise have had. A few months later the Reagan administration wanted to shut down the Voyager mission before it got to Neptune. Let's face it: it is not a partisan issue, politicians are much too short-sighted--they only see as far as the next election.



I mentioned Mondale because he was notorious for his hatred of the space program.

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 08:03 AM
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/shuttle.asp

Sick, I'm just glad that Snopes was quick to debunk this.

Irishman
2003-Feb-02, 09:25 AM
My condolences to everyone dealing with the loss. I share your pain.

That said, I have a few issues with comments made.

I wonder about everyone jumping on g99 for bringing up political arguments, when Gemstone first said, "We've got a good man in the White House..." That could be taken as a political statement. If you're going to complain, be consistent.

trusty said:

This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that sometimes, SOMETIMES you have to put your feelings aside to respect the loss of others. The world isn't always going to go your way.

So the loss experienced by the atheists and non-Christians is irrelevant and unworthy? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. That's certainly what I get from the President's speech. You're asking us to respect your feelings while you trample on ours. Seems fair to me. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't want to divert any more attention to the religious and political disagreements here. Suffice it to say I disagree that the President's speech was good, and let's move on.

Glom asked:

Often, 'Bays' in the Payload bay are referred to but I've searched all over the NASA website and have yet to actually find out what these 'Bays' are. I was wondering, what are they?

The payload bay is a large open area. Along the length, there are periodic structural frames, or ribs like the ribs of a ship. These make sections along the length of the payload bay, so each section is labeled a bay. They are numbered from front to back - I can't remember how many, maybe 16? NASA uses the numbers to keep track of where in the payload bay different items are stowed. That's a shorthand notation for location - precise location also uses a coordinate system.

Bill S.
2003-Feb-02, 09:41 AM
So the loss experienced by the atheists and non-Christians is irrelevant and unworthy? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. That's certainly what I get from the President's speech. You're asking us to respect your feelings while you trample on ours. Seems fair to me.


Bush quoting Isaiah was not an endorsement of a religion or belittlement of the feelings of any one group. Would you have felt better had he quoted Tennyson, Shakespeare, or read from the dictionary?

The words were (and are) inspirational and comforting. You're reading far too much into this.

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 11:10 AM
On 2003-02-02 04:25, Irishman wrote:
My condolences to everyone dealing with the loss. I share your pain.

That said, I have a few issues with comments made.

I wonder about everyone jumping on g99 for bringing up political arguments, when Gemstone first said, "We've got a good man in the White House..." That could be taken as a political statement. If you're going to complain, be consistent.


In my opinion, the reason that G99 was singled out is not because of his political opinion, but that it was a personal attack on the leader of the US. There is a difference between "we've got a good man in the white house" and "Bush is a moron". They both may be personal political views, but only one is an attack. I have nothing against G99, I think this person is very knowledgeable (albeit, a little harsh on spelling /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) and I think it was honorable for him to apologize for the attack (which I am already positive his intention was not to attack).



trusty said:

This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that sometimes, SOMETIMES you have to put your feelings aside to respect the loss of others. The world isn't always going to go your way.

So the loss experienced by the atheists and non-Christians is irrelevant and unworthy? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. That's certainly what I get from the President's speech. You're asking us to respect your feelings while you trample on ours. Seems fair to me. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Personally, I think this issue is getting more attention then it deserves. Everybody grieves in there own way. It does not matter if you are a christian, atheist or non-christian. The point is, would I not go to a religious friends or family members funeral because it was being held in a church or place of worship? Of course not. I would bite my tongue and be respectful of the grieving people whose only condolence is that there loved one went on to a better place. Religious people grieve religiously often with the words "God, "Jesus", "Prayer" and Heaven". some of these words were used a lot today in this topic indicating some faiths, but when someone post saying how offended they got that the president quoted from the bible because they are an athiest, then that put some people over the edge. If somebody wants to be an athiest, I respect that, but if you want to make it known that you are an athiest, then a better approach would have been: "Even though I am an athiest, I wish the best for the family and loved ones of this tragedy". O.K. so maybe not exactly like that but something of that nature would not have been as offensive. The mood in this topic was already grim and I personally felt more so after the comments made earlier.

I don't want anybody to get the idea that this is all written out of spite or anger, because it isn't. I have respect for all people of all religions and I have the utmost respect for the people on this board, but I don't like when people get upset that "Somebody used the word god" or "The president read from the Bible". So what. He did it for the same reason we have "In God We Trust" printed on our money... because this country was founded by people with highly religious beliefs.

All I ask is that we all be respectful of other people's beliefs. Because they are their own and nobody will change them. Don't get mad if somebody uses the word's "God" or "Prayer" and don't get mad if somebody omit's them. Just let everybody grieve to this tragedy the only way that they know how to.

I'm getting off my soap box now, and hope that this issue will go away. As I said, I think it has gotten way too much attention already.

[edit for spelling]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SKY on 2003-02-02 14:03 ]</font>

cable
2003-Feb-02, 02:04 PM
there is a strange discussion , regarding the shuttle, here:

http://www.omanforum.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings/CFB/1/forum/19.cfm

Rift
2003-Feb-02, 02:13 PM
Well, It's a full 24 hours now, and I'm still in shock, disbelief, and denile. And I'm mostly speechless.

I never ever wanted to relive thourgh anything like the Challenger again... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Unfourtunatley, frontiers are dangerous and when exploring frontiers theses things must be expected. No matter how safe we try to make things...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rift on 2003-02-02 09:17 ]</font>

Vermonter
2003-Feb-02, 02:26 PM
...some people need to be dumped into a black hole, like many of the posters on the forum on cable's link. Disgusting!

g99
2003-Feb-02, 04:27 PM
hehe thanks Irishman for defending me. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

SKY: Thanks for the compliments. I only said it because I do have strong feelings about politics. I wanted to put my opinion in. Yes it was not thought out alot beforehand, but hey we are all aloud outbursts of emotion sometimes. But i was shown that it was too harsh and wrong and i recanted. I have no problem with that. I like being told i am wrong because that makes me a better person.

Oh and i take offense in you saying that i am a bad speller!! I don't deserve that much credit, i am an abysmal speller. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have tried spelling programs, but i use netscape 7.1 and none of them are optimized for it and i really don't feel like going over to IE.

David Hall
2003-Feb-02, 04:30 PM
On 2003-02-02 03:03, SKY wrote:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/shuttle.asp

Sick, I'm just glad that Snopes was quick to debunk this.


Not only is it ridiculous and callous in the extreme, but that's about the worst Nostrodamus immitation I've ever seen. It sounds like it was written by a 16 year old.

Vermonter, I agree with you totally about Cable's link. I waded through a thread of it, and let's just say that the words that come to my mind would get me banned from this forum.

Still, there are some more rational posters over there, so it's not a complete cesspool.

g99
2003-Feb-02, 04:40 PM
I was watching T.V. this morning and i was very surprised by the news netowrks that i watched for a little while. Like yesterday most of my time was watching CNN but i did flip to the other networks. CNN already had a hour long documentary showing the lives and achievements of the crew and MSNBC had something similar.

I am alos surprised by the american public overall. All of the informal polls show that they overwhelmingly support space studies and exploration. More so than before the tragedy. The media and the public seem to think of this more of "where to next?" and not "Oh come on! NASA screwed up again. I don't want anymore of my money going to them!"

Almost all of the media coverage is on helping the public understand what to do if they find debris and helping to find debris. It also focuses very heavily on the human part of the story. The crew itself and the poeple effected by them. They are not hounding NASA and Engineers about what is going wrong and where they screwed up. They are not hounding the families of the crews about how they are feeling about their husband's/wife's/mother's/father's death like so many of them have done after other tragedies. They are respectfull and uplifting.

Is this a new direction for the media? I have no clue, i hope so. I like it and it gives me more faith in the American public and the president himself (no more on him /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif ).

Many officials when asked where to next? always have the same answer: "Mars!"
The media has picked up upon this and made the furvor for future space missions higher.

I second that exclamation...


I was very pestimistic before about the future of space, but now that skepticism has highly diminished. I think this horrible tragedy might, just might be good for the program in the long run. It could be the starter for a new furvor for space and exploration. Mars here we come!


Good luck crew of the shutle and safe journey to wherever you are going next...


[added this:]
I know i have given praise to the media before, but i want to again. They are doing such a good job to keep it upbeat and have spurred to public into a positive note. Thanks again.
_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-02 11:42 ]</font>

Rue
2003-Feb-02, 04:45 PM
Regarding Cable's link.
This really makes you appreciate the BABB
alot!

Gemstone
2003-Feb-02, 04:53 PM
To g99:

I just came back to this forum since late yesterday... I did take a little offense to you calling Bush a "moron" but it's no big thing... My comment saying he's a "good man" is equally biased and this thread should stay on topic about the terrible events of yesterday... I don't agree with everything Bush is doing either, but I feel he truly is trying to do what is right for this country and is a man with honest and moral values... But enough about that, I will not make any more political comments here... I've been a fan of the space program since the 60's and became inspired to become an engineer because of it... I lived in Bethpage during the glory days of the Grumman Corporation when they built the Lunar Module (LEM) and also, all the wings for the shuttle fleet... I myself, am an engineer for a large satellite communications company...

God rest the souls of the 7 astronauts... Let's hope they find the cause quickly and the program gets back on track...

g99
2003-Feb-02, 05:14 PM
I am sorry for offending you Gemstone. As i said above i was acting more on emotion than anything else. I do agree with you that he did do a very good job handleing this tragedy.

I do think that Bush is a man of morals and with this tragedy is trying to do what is best for NASA and the country. He is trying to deal with people like us and the people who want to shut down the project. To me even tought you all know my personal beiliefs about him, i think he is doing a good job with keeping the against NASA'ers and us from tearing at eachother. That is all i am going to go on about that on this topic.


Gemstone, your job just made me think of something. How will this effect the sattelite and large payload deliveries that the Shuttle was supposed to do in the future? How much money is stood to be lost because of this?

SKY
2003-Feb-02, 06:58 PM
On 2003-02-02 11:27, g99 wrote:
Oh and i take offense in you saying that i am a bad speller!! I don't deserve that much credit, i am an abysmal speller. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have tried spelling programs, but i use netscape 7.1 and none of them are optimized for it and i really don't feel like going over to IE.


Personally, I keep Microsoft Word open, and when I have a word I'm not sure about I type it into Word first to see the correct spelling then copy and paste to the BB.

g99
2003-Feb-02, 07:07 PM
i am not trying to be political with this. Just a memorial:

I want to give special condolences to: Kalpana Chawla. The first Indain born woman in space.
( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=535&e=1&cid=535&u=/ap/20030202/ap_on_sc/shuttle_world )


I think that she also deserves just as much praise as Ilan Ramon for being a special international astronaut. (I am not saying that Ilan was not special, just thet she is just as special)

Gemstone
2003-Feb-02, 07:14 PM
g99:

The vast majority of satellites are put into orbit directly from various rocket launches around the world... Very few are deployed via the shuttle... So hopefully this accident will have minimum impact on our industry, but it's too early to tell... The satellite industry was just starting to see signs of coming back so this can't help... But like I said, it's too early to tell...

g99
2003-Feb-02, 10:33 PM
I hope your job is still safe!! Good luck.

David Hall
2003-Feb-02, 10:57 PM
On 2003-02-02 14:07, g99 wrote:

I think that she also deserves just as much praise as Ilan Ramon for being a special international astronaut. (I am not saying that Ilan was not special, just thet she is just as special)


The early news reports seemed to focus on Ramon, but I noticed CNN at least has since put more focus on the other astronauts, especially Chawla.

Gemstone
2003-Feb-02, 11:24 PM
On 2003-02-02 17:33, g99 wrote:
I hope your job is still safe!! Good luck.


Thank you for those wishes! Yes, my job is still safe... Fortunately, we build equipment to the global market... So we will be ok, in spite of this...

I'm watching the NASA press conference as I type this... I am starting to feel that NASA and our space program will be stronger, safer, and more dedicated as a result of this terrible accident... Anyone else feel that way?... Or is it just wishfull thinking on my part?

Colt
2003-Feb-03, 12:30 AM
Forgive me for anything crass I might say, I have a roaring headache..

Since yesterday I have had the horrible question of what was more important that we lost? The Orbiter or the crew? I know it is bad to ask or even think of something like this but with the type of people that influence the space program, they might try to hamper the building of another shuttle or a new design. Well, goodbye for now. -Colt

Irishman
2003-Feb-03, 12:44 AM
Bill S., SKY, move on - I already have.

SKY said:

In my opinion, the reason that G99 was singled out is not because of his political opinion, but that it was a personal attack on the leader of the US. There is a difference between "we've got a good man in the white house" and "Bush is a moron". They both may be personal political views, but only one is an attack.

That sounds like you're saying that approval is allowed but criticism is not. I'm saying that to be fair neither should be allowed. Allowing only the positive comments is a breeding ground for hostile feelings from those who disagree. But I do understand the difference between a comment "Bush is a moron" and "Bush has done some incorrect things". So if you're saying they were responding because of the attack nature more than the view expressed, then I can accept that.

SKY
2003-Feb-03, 12:53 AM
On 2003-02-02 19:44, Irishman wrote:
I do understand the difference between a comment "Bush is a moron" and "Bush has done some incorrect things". So if you're saying they were responding because of the attack nature more than the view expressed, then I can accept that.


That's exactly what I was saying.

SKY
2003-Feb-03, 12:58 AM
On 2003-02-02 19:44, Irishman wrote:
Bill S., SKY, move on - I already have.


Hey, in my post above, I was just answering your question that you posted:



So the loss experienced by the atheists and non-Christians is irrelevant and unworthy?


And I have moved on.

Donnie B.
2003-Feb-03, 01:43 AM
On 2003-02-02 19:30, Colt wrote:
Forgive me for anything crass I might say, I have a roaring headache..

Since yesterday I have had the horrible question of what was more important that we lost? The Orbiter or the crew? I know it is bad to ask or even think of something like this but with the type of people that influence the space program, they might try to hamper the building of another shuttle or a new design. Well, goodbye for now. -Colt

The crew members, as individuals, are irreplacable. One doesn't have to be a loved one or friend to realize that.

The functions of the crew members can be replaced. There are other astronauts and mission specialists who would fly tomorrow if they could. Well, maybe not tomorrow...

The orbiter itself cannot be replaced -- at least, not for an affordable price. In this respect its loss is as bad (in a different way) as that of the crew. Its function can be taken up by the other orbiters, to some extent.

Perhaps this tragedy will have a positive result, namely, to breathe life into a program to develop a replacement for the shuttle fleet.

And perhaps one day, a space elevator...

HawkHunter
2003-Feb-03, 07:15 AM
thanks for likin it g99? (i forgot yur name already) lol anyways.. im thanking you for watching the flash movie i made @ http://home.cogeco.ca/~tmcdowell/index.html

g99
2003-Feb-03, 07:37 AM
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif yah my name is a weird one isn't it?

Donnie: I highly doubt that we will see a space elevator in the near future at all. The technology needed is way beyond our capabilities right now. I would think that the next new tech beyond a rocket lift system would be something more like elector-magnetic slingshotting. Something like the Superman ride at six flags.

But getting back to the shuttle...
During the NASA conference on saturday they mentioned several times that at the section where the piece of the external tank fell off they have had problems with the same thing happening before. It has never caused a problem before with the piece hitting the shuttle. What actually happened? What actually fell off? And how could it be fixed so it won't happen again?

I know that they have not said that this definitely caused a tile to doslodge, but you never know.

Valiant Dancer
2003-Feb-03, 02:18 PM
This is my first change to post to message boards since Friday, so please bear with me.

On Saturday, we lost seven bonafide heroes. Heroes distinguish themselves by their actions. By risking their lives for science, they bring back data for all of us which may be used to better society through better technology and understanding. I have no doubt in my mind that NASA will find the cause for this and possibly put in new safety protocols when an object strikes the orbiter on liftoff.

My condolences and heart goes out to the family and co-workers of the crew. I hope they find peace with this tragedy. The crew is in a better place, we will miss them. After all, funerals aren't for the benefit of the dead, they are for the benefit of those left behind.

Even though NASA's budget had been cut every year for the last decade, I am sure that safety was never sacrificed for lack of funding.

May the Lord and Lady comfort those left behind.

gethen
2003-Feb-03, 03:42 PM
Just cruised through one of the threads on Cable's link and realized how fortunate we all are to have access to a website with real, generally considerate, decent folks contributing. There are a lots of crazies out there.