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Damburger
2005-Nov-11, 01:24 PM
I don't like it. The reason why is that it is absurdly loaded and gives people a way to dismiss things as too ridiculous to debate, instead of actually refuting them.

Example: If I said that in the 1960s a group of some of the top military brass in the US planned terrorist attacks against their own citizens in order to provide justification for a war against Cuba, that would be a conspiracy theory (Its a theory, and it is regarding a conspiracy). Problem is that is happens to be true. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to give much credibility to moon hoax theories and the like, but I have looked at them and actually have objective reasons for rejecting them. The fact is that powerful people do form conspiracies to do bad things and then cover them up. A theory is no less valid because it involves a government conspiracy.

PhantomWolf
2005-Nov-11, 01:52 PM
Well not really. A Conspiracy Theory is something that can't be proven, so it is just a theory. If you can prove it's true, then it's not a theory.

WaxRubiks
2005-Nov-11, 02:02 PM
I thought that a theory provided testable things, things that can be tested. That's what someone said on a ID thread, that is what makes ID not science because it's ideas cannot be tested. A theory is still just a theory even if it contains "facts". That is what I thought anyway.

Count Zero
2005-Nov-11, 03:48 PM
For that reason, I've alway preferred the term "Conspiracy Hypothesis".

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-11, 07:10 PM
Perhaps you can explain this "Operation Northwoods" to me.


The proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba," a draft memorandum pdf) written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group. The draft memo was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. However, McNamara rejected the proposal.

Mainly:


entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba,"


... o.O That seems very very very "off" for a title. It's like sending a memorandum saying, "How we will kill the President" or something like that.

genebujold
2005-Nov-14, 01:28 AM
Perhaps you can explain this "Operation Northwoods" to me.



Mainly:




... o.O That seems very very very "off" for a title. It's like sending a memorandum saying, "How we will kill the President" or something like that.

If you can supply the exact Wikipedia link, I can rewrite it to reflect reality.

The Mangler
2005-Nov-14, 02:03 AM
Here's the link:

... Example: If I said that in the 1960s a group of some of the top military brass in the US planned terrorist attacks against their own citizens in order to provide justification for a war against Cuba, that would be a conspiracy theory (Its a theory, and it is regarding a conspiracy). Problem is that is happens to be true. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)....

Makes you wonder what other 'false flag' operations have been attempted that we don't know about...

sfarq1
2005-Nov-14, 02:20 AM
Perhaps you can explain this "Operation Northwoods" to me.



Mainly:




... o.O That seems very very very "off" for a title. It's like sending a memorandum saying, "How we will kill the President" or something like that.

It has been unclasified for years

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

Enzp
2005-Nov-15, 01:34 AM
Like they say, just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean someone is not out to get you.

There sure and truly are conspiracies. But "conspircay theory" as used around here refers to concocting a notion that some hidden conspiracy is responsible for something rather than what the evidence supports.

If a whacko guesses right, it doesn't lend credence to his flawed thought process to get to the conclusion.

SolusLupus
2005-Nov-15, 03:34 AM
Poland was big on conspiracies. It had 5 national conspiracies while the Nazis had power over it.

sarongsong
2005-Nov-18, 09:29 PM
Just a sidenote on the word conspiracy (from Latin---breathing together):
Some years ago, a food conspiracy was a term used to describe groups of individual consumers that pooled their money to purchase food items and supplies in bulk from wholesalers and farmers on a regular basis. A central gathering place was used to divide and bag these into the individuals' original orders, requiring their volunteer labor. Savings were significant, especially for those on fixed incomes. When a neighboring senior-citizen couple asked what was going on, they were told it was a food conspiracy and were asked if they'd like to join. The woman's immediate alarmed response, "A conspiracy?! Why that's against the government!"
They eventually joined, once it was explained to them and got past that word.

genebujold
2005-Nov-21, 04:42 AM
Now they're called "Farm Coops," of which I and my wife belonged to FORC, Food of the Ohio River Coop, for several years before we moved away from their distribution areas.

Great, clean, hearty, healthy food at way below supermarket prices!

All one needed was a deep freezer. And one came with the house we bought.

Moose
2005-Nov-21, 02:58 PM
I also dislike "conspiracy theory". Not because it's loaded, but because the gross mainstream misuse of the word theory enables agenda-laden things such as ID.

Having rejected "conspiracy theory", I make the following distinctions:

Watergate was a "conspiracy". It happened. The facts of the matter are fairly clear.

Something seemingly plausible but not yet tested, nor effectively confirmed, nor refuted, such as the events Fitzgerald is currently investigating or the "magic bullet" scenario, would best be termed a "conspiracy hypothesis" in my mind.

Conspiracy hypotheses that have been solidly refuted (Hoagland and Sibrel), or are so far out there that it's hard to know where to start (Lieder) would, I think, best be termed "conspiracy fantasies".

Wolverine
2005-Nov-21, 04:11 PM
I also dislike "conspiracy theory". Not because it's loaded, but because the gross mainstream misuse of the word theory enables agenda-laden things such as ID.

Emphatically agreed. I've begun substituting the phrase "conspiracy assertions," which seems more accurate.