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rambo07
2005-Nov-19, 05:20 PM
there are reports that its not the bird flu that kills you but your own immune system going over drive , therefore healthy and young people are more likely to die ,people with supprised immune systems ie one's infected with Aids or hiv are more likely to survive bird flu for instance , my question is how can you at the right time suppress your own immune system so that you can stop yourself from self distruction trying to fight the disease , without going out there and getting Aids, ie not going to sleep , not eating ,cutting yourself ,keeping yourself cold , is there a way to do it ???.

Candy
2005-Nov-19, 05:48 PM
Don't forget smoking...

I'm at day 20 without a cigarette (using the patch to quit). :dance:

I've not had the flu or a cold in the past ~4 years. I think it may even be longer. Someone once told me that smoking was the reason for this, but that seems like the opposite of what should actually happen.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-19, 07:34 PM
there are reports that its not the bird flu that kills you but your own immune system going over drive , therefore healthy and young people are more likely to die

No. This is just wrong. H5N1 is just a nasty variant of the flu. Your immune system is your friend when you get any type of flu.

Edit: Congrats, Candy! Keep at it!

rambo07
2005-Nov-19, 10:15 PM
no I'm sorry but one of the top specialist in the field of H5n1 on the bbc has said that its the immue system response the the new threat that kills the body,,,,,the immune system is like the charge of the light brigade without a captain it just keeps on going ,I know it seems perverse to say that at atime of great danger you should unfasten our safety belt and take your hands off the wheel but this is what you need to do to avoid death from birdflu,,,,,

N C More
2005-Nov-19, 10:31 PM
Perhaps eating sauerkraut/kimchi (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=1289433) could be helpful?

And...stay away from these guys! http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/tiere/g070.gif

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-19, 11:00 PM
rambo07: Do you have a source? Can you give me a website? I'm afraid I'm having a bit of difficulty swallowing this one.

N C More: What you have to realise is that flu in birds is a gastrointestinal disease, so the infected tissue is directly exposed to the chemicals in the 'kraut. Not so in humans, where flu is a respiratory disease.

rambo07
2005-Nov-19, 11:28 PM
either try www.bbc or try to see what you need to know about birdflu (program seen on bbc last week) or ring the experts , they should comfirm,,,,

N C More
2005-Nov-19, 11:54 PM
N C More: What you have to realise is that flu in birds is a gastrointestinal disease, so the infected tissue is directly exposed to the chemicals in the 'kraut. Not so in humans, where flu is a respiratory disease.

Yeah, I know. But, hey, at least it's interesting! Perhaps in finding out exactly what chemicals (or perhaps bacteria involved in the fermentation process) are beneficial for the birds it may be helpful in some way?

Anyway, I'll bet the cabbage growers are happy! Sauerkraut and knockwurst is pretty tasty too! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/nahrung/e030.gif

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-20, 01:37 AM
True, but the media has been reporting that eating the stuff would help in case of infection. Had to nip that one in the bud.

Klausnh
2005-Nov-20, 02:25 AM
rambo07: Do you have a source? Can you give me a website? I'm afraid I'm having a bit of difficulty swallowing this one.

try scidev.net (http://www.scidev.net/content/news/eng/bird-flu-may-kill-by-making-immune-system-overreact.cfm)

Bird flu might cause such severe disease and kill so many people because it makes the immune system 'overreact', say researchers.

They say that suppressing the immune response could be a way to treat infection by the H5N1 virus, which has killed 64 people in Asia about half of all confirmed cases.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-20, 03:11 AM
Ah, thanks. That's very... strange.

Gullible Jones
2005-Nov-20, 05:25 AM
Not really, it's how pulmoary hanta virus kills you. The virii infect cells in the lungs, immune cells swarm the infected lung cells and kill them, and soon the lungs are full of fluid and incapable of functioning properly.

(To put things into perspective, this virus killed young, healthy people in a matter of days.)

The business with immunity impairment making the virus less lethal seems a bit exaggerated though. True, your body wouldn't be attacking itself, but the virus would also be unimpeded, and I'm sure that, given such a chance, it would pretty much make up for the lack of cellular treason on its own.


...ie not going to sleep , not eating ,cutting yourself ,keeping yourself cold...

Would almost certainly just kill you faster.

rambo07
2005-Nov-20, 10:27 AM
the immune system (and Iam no expert) are made up of different layers of defence ie white cells, t cells ,micro fagdes etc, what happens first is that the bodies defence force vangaurd white cells tend to go ape when they meet a new threat and can tend to over react algong side micro fagdes ,normally when they meet a bacteria they know this is alright ,but when they meet something new they tend to panic and go into overdrive, its this process in the first two to three days that kills you ,,,if the immune system is week this process is slowed down for enough time for the T cells the last line of the bodies immune system to kick in this process normall takes the human body 5 days to work (way afher you are dead) the T cells will kill the birdflu virus ,,,,this is why healthy and young people will die in the first couple of days ,because the immune system is so healthy and fast it will kill you before the T cell (in 5 days time are allowed to kick in) ,,,,, so back to first question ,,,how can you reduce your immume system long enough to survive for 5 days for the T cells to kick in ????? come on ,,,you are the brightest people I know!!!!

N C More
2005-Nov-20, 04:06 PM
Honestly, I think the answer to the question of how to survive the bird flu is to support development of a vaccine (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/109/109393.htm)... and then get innoculated. It's certainly the option I'd go for.

rambo07
2005-Nov-20, 04:50 PM
yes of course, but the chances are we can't, and if we can't ,what can we do ??

N C More
2005-Nov-20, 07:48 PM
yes of course, but the chances are we can't, and if we can't ,what can we do ??

It doesn't seem likely that "we can't" (develop vaccines). It's actually looking more positive (from my previous link):



The new bird flu vaccine is based on a bird flu virus isolated directly from an infected person in Vietnam. The good news, Treanor says, is that this bird flu virus is very much like the virus seen in people with more recent bird flu infections. This means the vaccine likely would work against current bird flu virus infection.
However, Treanor and Fauci both say there's no guarantee that this vaccine will work against a bird flu virus that makes the genetic changes needed to spread easily among humans.
"If the virus does evolve, this current vaccine may not be protective," Fauci says. "You would have to substitute for the currently circulating virus. But even if you have to change vaccines later on, we now know how to do it. This puts us months ahead. This is not the end. But it is an important first step."

I really think that vaccine development is the answer.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-20, 08:34 PM
If merely weakening your immune system, which BTW the methods in the OP are not valid, was all you needed to do to survive bird flu, it wouldn't be a secret among health care providers. The problem with this line of thought is that a weakened immune system will not prevent infection. Once infection occurs, the amount of immune suppression needed is extreme.

There is a SARS survivor making the rounds here with others giving lectures about the SARS experience for health care workers. Not only is this person severely disabled by the lung damage left from SARS, she is also severely disabled from the massive dose of steroids that were used to suppress her immune system to save her life. Her bones are literally disintegrating and are extremely painful. News account (http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/307469/sars_survivor_describes_constant_suffering/)

If you want to survive bird flu, stop the 'magical thinking' approach and read the science. It is droplet spread mostly. That means very careful avoidance of contaminating your hands and touching your face without washing those hands along with keeping about 3 feet distance from people who do or might have the H5N1 flu is the best way to survive.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-20, 08:47 PM
It doesn't seem likely that "we can't" (develop vaccines). It's actually looking more positive (from my previous link):



I really think that vaccine development is the answer.This is the second best way to survive, (see above post for best way). We have the vaccine, and we can develop a new vaccine to meet the genetic changes that might occur with the H5N1 as it moves into the human population. The problem isn't development, it's production and distribution.

It takes about 6 months to produce influenza vaccine. And, all the world's vaccine manufacturers could barely make enough for 5% of the world's population in 6 months if they used all their potential just for bird flu. That is according to their own estimates made a few years back at a big meeting in Europe. Not to mention how many eggs would be needed at a time when much of the poultry industry will also be affected. That's another unknown.

Development of newer vaccines that are made differently, testing those vaccines, then building the infrastructure to mass produce the vaccine cannot be accomplished in less than several years even if everything goes well in the process which there is no guarantee it will.

It comes back to hand washing for now. It's a virus. It has to get from someone to you. We know how that happens. We know how to prevent it from happening. No magical thinking, no silver bullet, just plain, simple, boring infection control. :D

beskeptical
2005-Nov-20, 08:50 PM
Don't forget smoking...

I'm at day 20 without a cigarette (using the patch to quit). :dance:

I've not had the flu or a cold in the past ~4 years. I think it may even be longer. Someone once told me that smoking was the reason for this.....
Only if people have been avoiding you when you smoke. ;)

That's great, though. I quit many years ago. I got sick of coughing all the time.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-20, 08:58 PM
Not really, it's how pulmoary hanta virus kills you. The virii infect cells in the lungs, immune cells swarm the infected lung cells and kill them, and soon the lungs are full of fluid and incapable of functioning properly.

Oh, crud. Right. That's how the Spanish Flu killed as well. From the OP, it looked like some sort of haywire T-Cell-attacking-the-body-directly-slowly-digesting-it sort of thing was being proposed. My mistake.

Maha Vailo
2005-Nov-21, 02:32 AM
So if you found a way to clear the lungs of fluid very, very rapidly, you could save many lives. I wonder what could do it? A pump of sorts, maybe?

- Maha Vailo

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-21, 02:33 AM
I bet you could oxygenate the blood directly, and to heck with lungs. the problem is there just aren't enough machines to go around.

Gullible Jones
2005-Nov-21, 03:44 AM
There are. Heart-lung machines, used during open heart surgery.

Edit: Oh, I thought you meant we didn't have the machines, my bad.

I'd like to know a bit more about this flu's mortality rate, though. The Spanish flu was a bit less lethal than yellow fever, IIRC... But this H5N1 stuff is more in the region of Marburg or Lassa, or the other hemorrhagic fevers, judging from what I've heard - almost 50%. Could this be inaccurate? I'm thinking, if someone caught it and survived it, it might get passed off as a nasty but ordinary case of influenza, and not reported. Might the actual mortality rate be closer to 25% or so?

BTW, some diseases to compare against:

yellow fever: 5% lethal
Marburg: 25-50% lethal (varies depending on strain)
Lassa fever: ~50% lethal
hanta virus: ~70% lethal (IIRC)
Ebola Zaire: 90% lethal
rabies: 100% lethal (if untreated)

aurora
2005-Nov-21, 03:52 AM
What you have to realise is that flu in birds is a gastrointestinal disease, so the infected tissue is directly exposed to the chemicals in the 'kraut. Not so in humans, where flu is a respiratory disease.

I got this mental image of trying to breathe in Kimchi.

I bet it would be rather painful.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-21, 08:49 AM
So if you found a way to clear the lungs of fluid very, very rapidly, you could save many lives. I wonder what could do it? A pump of sorts, maybe?

- Maha VailoIt's called suctioning. We do it every day in the ICU. You can only suction the large airway. We also do what's called pulmonary drainage. You put the person head down on a tilted bed and let the fluid drain out.

This is not the magic bullet either, sorry.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-21, 09:00 AM
There are. Heart-lung machines, used during open heart surgery.

Edit: Oh, I thought you meant we didn't have the machines, my bad.

I'd like to know a bit more about this flu's mortality rate, though. The Spanish flu was a bit less lethal than yellow fever, IIRC... But this H5N1 stuff is more in the region of Marburg or Lassa, or the other hemorrhagic fevers, judging from what I've heard - almost 50%. Could this be inaccurate? I'm thinking, if someone caught it and survived it, it might get passed off as a nasty but ordinary case of influenza, and not reported. Might the actual mortality rate be closer to 25% or so?

BTW, some diseases to compare against:

yellow fever: 5% lethal
Marburg: 25-50% lethal (varies depending on strain)
Lassa fever: ~50% lethal
hanta virus: ~70% lethal (IIRC)
Ebola Zaire: 90% lethal
rabies: 100% lethal (if untreated)
Heart lung bypass isn't practical. You need a team and an OR and if you leave the person on it too long you get other complications.

As far as the lethality of diseases, you have to add in one more factor, how many people get it.

Rabies is 100% fatal (unless prevented with vaccine and rabies immune globulin before symptom onset*) but not vary many people get it. The 1918 flu had as low as 2-3% mortality in the USA (as high as 50% in Africa) but if half the population gets it that's one heck of a lot of dead people.

The current known total for H5N1 is around 120 cases and 60 deaths for a 50% mortality. But in order to determine the real death rate you need to sample a large number of exposed persons for antibody to see how many cases have gone undetected. That gives you a better idea what the denominator really is. Those studies have not yet been done.


*There was that one girl who recently survived rabies. She was treated just before symptom onset but the infection was not aborted. I saw her on a news clip and she looked pretty brain damaged. I don't know if she has made any progress since.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-21, 09:10 AM
rambo07: Do you have a source? Can you give me a website? I'm afraid I'm having a bit of difficulty swallowing this one.

N C More: What you have to realise is that flu in birds is a gastrointestinal disease, so the infected tissue is directly exposed to the chemicals in the 'kraut. Not so in humans, where flu is a respiratory disease.Read post 178 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16456&page=6) down the page and on the next page read post 181, and especially 188!! :D Sarongsong provided a very good citation of the source of this information after I discounted it entirely. The source was credible but the information on the research wasn't available nor could one conclude the results could be applied to humans without much more research.

Tunga
2005-Nov-22, 02:15 AM
I wonder if supplements might provide some relief (specifically Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl combined with Alpha Lipoic Acid) to bird flu symptoms and recovery rates.* I have been using this supplement by the commercial name Juvenon for approximately 2 months now.* It maximizes mitochondria functioning and dramatically improves my lung function.* I have severe asthma.* I had the condition my entire life.* Before the condition was diagnosed in my late 40's, my peak flows averaged around 390 litres/min.* And that was on a good day.* As a result, today I almost live off from Albuterol inhalant, which improved my peak flows to an average of 580.* Within 24 hours of taking Juvenon, my lung capacity began to improve.* I measured my peak flow on 10 occasions after I began to take the supplement. My new average was 673 which represents a 16% increase in peak flow. With this supplement, I have even measured peak flows up to 820.* Considering my age (57), my physical condition (couch potato) and the fact that the peak flow meter*only goes up to 890, that is astonishing. Since the bird flu symptoms are respiratory in nature, perhaps this product might aid in dealing with this threat.

Gullible Jones
2005-Nov-22, 02:54 AM
I doubt it. And although research does indeed indicate that acetyl L-carnetine has a positive effect on one's mitochondria, it isn't really enough - I'd get off that couch if I were you.

Re the girl who survived rabies: yep, I forgot about that, my bad.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-22, 08:50 AM
Re the girl who survived rabies: yep, I forgot about that, my bad.It wasn't bad at all. I still consider rabies 100% fatal. I doubt one survivor really changes that statistic unless you want to say something like 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999% fatal or whatever a single survivor would make the number.

(Weird, I tried to edit the space in the 99999s above but it doesn't show up on the edit screen.)

Argos
2005-Nov-22, 01:04 PM
First commandment for surviving bird flu: keep your hands clean.

Simple as this.

Tunga
2005-Nov-22, 03:37 PM
Gullible Jones writes:
"I doubt it. And although research does indeed indicate that acetyl L-carnetine has a positive effect on one's mitochondria, it isn't really enough."

Acetyl-L-carnitine combined with alpha lipoic acid is a combination supplement. Both components are required. Lipoic acid provides cellular antioxidant defense.

One of my coworkers has scoliosis (curvature of the spine). This lifelong condition compresses her lungs and she finds it very difficult to breath. Any manual task will cause her to quickly become short winded. She began taking this combination several months before I did. She said it significantly improved her ability to breath. She said the relief was enough that she decided to take this supplement for the rest of her life.

As a result, before I began to take this supplement I decided to conduct my own scientific experiment to assess its effects. A 16% improvement in lung capacity is not trivial. Years ago I would experience an annual 3 month bout with the flu. It would eventually work its way down into my lungs and turn into severe bronchitis. A deep rattling in the lungs, harsh deep coughs where I would see stars and continuous fighting for each and every breath, like I was being drowned. After several years of this torture, I finally began taking an annual flu shot. They worked. But then I began using a combination of 6 supplements that made the flu shot unnecessary. Now when I get the flu, the effects last for a few hours and then it quickly works its way out of my system. A 16% improvement in lung capacity is not trivial and may be the difference between life and death for someone suffering from the flu and perhaps even the bird flu.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-23, 10:30 AM
..... Years ago I would experience an annual 3 month bout with the flu. It would eventually work its way down into my lungs and turn into severe bronchitis. A deep rattling in the lungs, harsh deep coughs where I would see stars and continuous fighting for each and every breath, like I was being drowned. After several years of this torture, I finally began taking an annual flu shot. They worked. But then I began using a combination of 6 supplements that made the flu shot unnecessary. Now when I get the flu, the effects last for a few hours and then it quickly works its way out of my system. A 16% improvement in lung capacity is not trivial and may be the difference between life and death for someone suffering from the flu and perhaps even the bird flu.I don't know anything about your supplement so will avoid comment until I read more, but the symptoms you are describing as "flu" are not influenza symptoms. I realize many people refer to all sorts of things as 'flu' and if we weren't talking specifically about influenza I might not bother to correct you. But this thread is about a specific infection, not any and everything that one might get symptoms from.

Unless you had cultures grown, your symptoms would not lead me to diagnose that as flu. And even if you did have cultures, I might not even be convinced then.

An influenza infection generally lasts 7 to 10 days. It most often has a sudden onset of high fever, muscle aches and head ache. Coughing and respiratory symptoms begin about 24 hours later. Flu would not last 3 months nor a few hours. A flu vaccine would not protect you from anything else, nor would it make you catch anything else (both common myths, "a got a flu shot and got sick" or "I got a flu shot and didn't get sick").

Your your flu shot doesn't work against the more than 200 other known organisms that cause respiratory infections any more than your tetanus shot would.

Your lung capacity experiment might be valid as far as the supplement goes but your conclusions that your flu shot did this or that or that you now don't need one are not valid. You can measure tidal flow or lung capacity, give a drug and measure the direct effect. That data would be valid. But to draw conclusions about whether the supplement had any effect on your illnesses, regardless of how many years you carried out your test, you must have a much larger sample size and you must have control subjects. There are just too many variables in infectious diseases to conclude which variable was responsible for the effect you have attributed to both your flu shot and the supplement.

We do know from large samples that flu vaccine prevents the flu. We also know the people who get flu shots are less likely to die of or be hospitalized for pneumonia either primary from the flu virus or secondary from bacterial infections following the flu infection. The flu virus has a greater affinity for your trachea cells and lower airways than most respiratory viruses. That is one reason why it tends to be worse than your average 'cold' and 'sore throat'.

But from your description, you are assuming the flu virus is there all winter, it isn't. You are assuming whatever you had was flu, but it doesn't infect everyone every year. In fact it would be rather unlikely to get it every year. You are assuming because you haven't gotten it since taking the supplement that you aren't getting it because your lungs are better. But the flu doesn't infect unhealthy lungs and not infect healthy ones. It infects people who get a large enough dose of the virus into their eye nose or mouth. Healthy lungs would mean you might be less likely to get infected, and the infection might be less likely to progress to pneumonia, but you certainly wouldn't be immune to getting infected no matter how healthy you were.

Regardless of how healthy a person is, the factors that affect whether or not we get an infection depends on the number of organisms introduced, how virulent they are (meaning how many it takes to start growing), how pathogenic they are (meaning how sick can they make you), where they enter our bodies, our genetic makeup (certain protein characteristics on the surfaces of our cells interact with the organism), our immunity to that specific organism, and whether or not we have other conditions that make us more susceptible (that could be something like smoking which damages the cilia in the trachea so that the cilia cannot assist the immune response by moving the organisms out of the airway).

Certainly, the last item could apply to someone with severe lung problems of many kinds. So a person with lung problems could get sick more often and with exposure to a smaller number of organisms. But even the healthiest persons are susceptible to getting infections if the organism gets in.

You most certainly need a flu shot every year in addition to whatever else you are doing that you feel is helping. To not get one based on the personal experience you describe here is most unfortunate. It is often hard to convince people that personal experience leads to the wrong conclusions because one doesn't realize just how many other possible conclusions there were.

I took supplement x and y happened. But the number of other things that could have also caused y including some that could have caused y over and over again are very large.

And, in addition to that mistake, it's human nature to distort our recollections. Unless you took careful notes, the chances are pretty high you brain selected what it wanted to remember about your days of illness before and after the supplement. You have described a number of years getting sick for 3 months running, a number of years the flu shot kept you well, and a number of years the supplements kept you well. That is too many years to have a careful memory of actual sick days unless the data was recorded.

Tunga
2005-Nov-23, 04:54 PM
The original title of this thread is birdflu and how to survive it?

Earlier in this thread beskeptical wrote:

If you want to survive bird flu, stop the 'magical thinking' approach and read the science. It is droplet spread mostly. That means very careful avoidance of contaminating your hands and touching your face without washing those hands along with keeping about 3 feet distance from people who do or might have the H5N1 flu is the best way to survive.

Another tool in the arsenal is bird flu innoculations


This is the second best way to survive, (see above post for best way). We have the vaccine, and we can develop a new vaccine to meet the genetic changes that might occur with the H5N1 as it moves into the human population. The problem isn't development, it's production and distribution.

It takes about 6 months to produce influenza vaccine. And, all the world's vaccine manufacturers could barely make enough for 5% of the world's population in 6 months if they used all their potential just for bird flu. That is according to their own estimates made a few years back at a big meeting in Europe. Not to mention how many eggs would be needed at a time when much of the poultry industry will also be affected. That's another unknown.

This last statement infers a weakness in treating a major bird flu outbreak, should bird-to-human transmission version of the virus evolve into a human-to-human version.

(This may not be as serious a problem as envisioned if DNA Vaccine medical technology evolves. http://www.reason.com/rb/rb111105.shtml )

As a result, society may be left in a lurch if this bird flu scenario comes about. Some individuals have begun stockpiling supplies of Tamiflu and Relenza in preparation. Masking, quarantine and isolation are other tools. So in the spirit of the title of this thread - what other tools are available should a pandemic strike?

I suggested supplements specifically Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl in combination with Alpha Lipoic Acid. This suggestion is based on my own personal observations with using this supplement and with my own experiences with normal flu viruses that lead to respiratory infections. I didn't suggest this as a magic bullet but one of many tools that society may find to be of use.

I began my original thread as

I wonder if supplements might provide some relief
Scientific discovery sometimes comes about by people who wonder.

beskeptical
2005-Nov-23, 06:57 PM
...
(This may not be as serious a problem as envisioned if DNA Vaccine medical technology evolves. http://www.reason.com/rb/rb111105.shtml ) Flu is an RNA virus.


...As a result, society may be left in a lurch if this bird flu scenario comes about. Some individuals have begun stockpiling supplies of Tamiflu and Relenza in preparation. Masking, quarantine and isolation are other tools. So in the spirit of the title of this thread - what other tools are available should a pandemic strike?

I suggested supplements specifically Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl in combination with Alpha Lipoic Acid. This suggestion is based on my own personal observations with using this supplement and with my own experiences with normal flu viruses that lead to respiratory infections. I didn't suggest this as a magic bullet but one of many tools that society may find to be of use.

I began my original thread as

Scientific discover sometimes comes about by people who wonder.I understand what you are saying here but that still doesn't negate the fact your conclusions about the effectiveness of your supplement against the flu are based on faulty logic.

I think your finding your lung function improved with the supplement is of value. I am not endorsing your data but if it is accurate, again, that would be data that had significance.

But the rest of your position about then having less flu is just not supportable given your description of how you came to the conclusion it was useful. Just because we think something is working not only doesn't mean it works but actually can't even rule out that it might be making the situation worse.

There is no evidence the supplement in question, just based on your information, and not on additional research, would prevent or lessen any influenza infection. Were someone to rely on your conclusions, again, based on what you presented, they would be relying on 'magical thinking'. In this case, magical thinking is coming to believe the supplement had an impact on influenza infection after erroneous observations (thinking you had less flu disease when you had no valid measurement of what flu disease you even had). That is no better than thinking a rabbit's foot is going to help.

I'm glad you posted your information, don't get me wrong. I'm actually going to look closer at what data there is on your supplement. But I also hope that explaining just what is wrong with your conclusions might give you and others some more insight into how we come to these erroneous conclusions about infectious disease.

We don't test everything that we consume to see if it makes infections better or worse. But there are a fair number of things we should test before drawing any conclusions despite lots if indications the things might work. Take for example, nonoxyl-9, the spermicide used with diaphragms. It kills HIV in a test tube, (in vitro). But it turned out in practice, (in vivo), women who used it in Africa got HIV more often rather than less often.

Without proper scientific evaluations four major problems occur:
1) We do waste billions of health care dollars every year on things that don't work.
2) We can miss the chance to use effective treatments while using ineffective ones.
3) We can miss the chance to investigate the real cause of certain conditions while remaining convinced something that has been disproved caused it.
4) We can do more harm than good.

So drawing conclusions as so many people do based on personal observations that are flawed, (for example not knowing you really didn't have influenza, or not knowing influenza was a completely different animal than your average cold, or not recognizing how many other variables were really involved), is one of our bigger problems in health care and in science.

I actually came to the 'Bad' Astronomy Forum in the first place because of my interest in educating people about the 'bad' medicine beliefs which are very much parallel to 'bad' astronomy beliefs. People, including very intelligent and very educated people, don't always know the basic science principles that are needed to draw proper conclusions about personal experiences and personal observations. Our brains see patterns and interpret them. But without understanding logic and the principles of the scientific process, our brains don't always draw correct conclusions nor look to improve our pattern observations.

Tunga
2005-Nov-24, 01:28 AM
Description of how DNA Vaccines work.


http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/dnavac.htm

beskeptical
2005-Nov-24, 08:05 AM
Description of how DNA Vaccines work.


http://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/dnavac.htmhttp://people.ku.edu/~jbrown/dnavac.htm fixed link for you

The DNA is isolated from an infectious organism such as a virus or bacterium.Flu virus has no DNA. It only has RNA.

But your vaccine article is interesting nonetheless.

Tunga
2005-Dec-12, 04:46 PM
More on the new flu vaccine methods. The major advantage is to shorten the time to get vaccines into production and distribution.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178115,00.html

beskeptical
2005-Dec-13, 08:08 AM
More on the new flu vaccine methods. The major advantage is to shorten the time to get vaccines into production and distribution.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178115,00.html
various drug companies and other corners are working on the next generation of vaccines using what's called "cell-culture technology."I don't think these vaccines are even close to human trials. We have recombinant gene vaccines in use. Flu virus is grown in chicken eggs, because that is a cell culture. Other cells may be used for the cultures in the future but I don't think they are just around the corner so to speak.