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banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Nov-29, 06:55 PM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work? Would Canada be better off if it had an extra 100 million or so people? There are US states that have almost as many people as the whole of Canada.

Celestial Mechanic
2005-Nov-29, 07:19 PM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work?
I see no reason why not, especially nowadays with nearly instantaneous communication. Now getting Ottawa and Montreal on speaking terms is another matter, but one that people of good will work towards. You can look to Switzerland and Finland as examples of multilingual countries that work, as I suspect some of your politicians and thinkers already have.

Would Canada be better off if it had an extra 100 million or so people?
Depends on whether they will make the effort to become English Canadian or French Canadian, that is whether they will integrate into the cultures or not. You certainly wouldn't want 100 million Americans moving in!

There are US states that have almost as many people as the whole of Canada.
Such as California, Texas, Florida, ... . Would you really want that? :eh: :)

Big Brother Dunk
2005-Nov-29, 07:31 PM
Despite the vast geographical differences, I think it can continue to work.

If the population was evenly distributed throughout the entire country it might be difficult, but something like 80% of the population is within 100 miles of the U.S. border (or something like that). Much of the rest of the country is uninhabitable. That concentration along the border probably makes it a little easier to run the country.

Now if Quebec was to separate, running the country might become a little more problematic.

Tensor
2005-Nov-29, 07:33 PM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work?

Ya know, 100 years ago it has fewer people and just as large an area, without the modern communication CM mentioned, and it's still here.

Glom
2005-Nov-29, 07:37 PM
I thought Canada was disbanded yesterday.

peter eldergill
2005-Nov-29, 07:56 PM
Just the gubment. I don't know who to elect now. We have 3 parties (not including marijuana party, of course. Also the green party), Liberals, Conservative and New Democrats.

The Liberals had a minority guvernment with the NDP but due to massive charges of corruption, the current gubment has been dissolved with a vote of no confidence.

I'm not sure what will happen next....

Pete

Swift
2005-Nov-29, 09:13 PM
I saw a photo of Canada, but there were no stars in the photo. Obviously the entire country was faked on a sound stage in Hollywood.

;)

peter eldergill
2005-Nov-29, 09:17 PM
Very funny...ha ha ha....

You won't be laughing when Canada takes over the world as hockey puck technology increases!:surprised :shifty:

L8R

Pete

teddyv
2005-Nov-29, 09:19 PM
Just the gubment. I don't know who to elect now. We have 3 parties (not including marijuana party, of course. Also the green party), Liberals, Conservative and New Democrats.

The Liberals had a minority guvernment with the NDP but due to massive charges of corruption, the current gubment has been dissolved with a vote of no confidence.

I'm not sure what will happen next....

Pete

Tell me about. I have no idea who I would vote for. All the parties kind of stink right now. Might actually have to base my choice on the actual riding candidate.

NEOWatcher
2005-Nov-29, 09:20 PM
Very funny...ha ha ha....
You won't be laughing when Canada takes over the world as hockey puck technology increases!:surprised :shifty:

The U.S. would revolt if they had to pronounce things like Mississauga and Etobecoke (let alone try to spell them)

Hugh Jass
2005-Nov-29, 09:21 PM
What would happen eh? If Canada really did take over. eh? Could certainly teach the world a ting or two aboot bad tasting strong beer. eh?

LurchGS
2005-Nov-29, 09:21 PM
I saw that photo too - shadows fell in more than one direction.

Personally, I think the Infrastructure wil keep on keeping on. The overall system of government, as a good American, I have doubts about :)

--------

"Their mountains are very pointy
Their prairies are not!
The rest is kinda bumpy,
but man do they got a lot!"

(mild paraphrase of The Arrogant Worms Canadian National Anthem. Which they wrote)

NEOWatcher
2005-Nov-29, 09:25 PM
What would happen eh? If Canada really did take over. eh? Could certainly teach the world a ting or two aboot bad tasting strong beer. eh?
Don't mess with our beer, or else it will be big news... (http://www.woio.com/Global/story.asp?S=4178801&nav=menu68_2)

montebianco
2005-Nov-29, 09:28 PM
Just the gubment. I don't know who to elect now. We have 3 parties (not including marijuana party, of course. Also the green party), Liberals, Conservative and New Democrats.

Maybe you can talk the Bloc into running a candidate in your constituency :)

Jim
2005-Nov-29, 09:35 PM
We have 3 parties ..., Liberals, Conservative and New Democrats.

Would you be interested in working out a trade? We'd consider throwing in a high round draft choice or two.

... the current gubment has been dissolved with a vote of no confidence.

This would be one Canadian import I'd like to see. The US system may provide more stability in the government (you have 4 years no matter how bad you screw up), but a non-binding confidence vote would be interesting.

NEOWatcher
2005-Nov-29, 09:44 PM
The Liberals had a minority guvernment with the NDP but due to massive charges of corruption, the current gubment has been dissolved with a vote of no confidence.

Ok; kidding aside, I've been trying to get some understanding on what's going on (without any slants about who said what:hand: ).
What exactly is a vote of no confidence? In what situations can it be done? What is the result of when this happens? What are the portions of the government involved?:confused:
I've been trying to piece it together from articles, but all I get is a lot of noise with a lot of fingerpointing.:naughty:

montebianco
2005-Nov-29, 09:51 PM
This would be one Canadian import I'd like to see. The US system may provide more stability in the government (you have 4 years no matter how bad you screw up), but a non-binding confidence vote would be interesting.

Well, in a way, the US does have a binding no-confidence vote, although it's a bit harder to get one through than in most parliamentary systems. But, a majority vote in the Congress, and a 2/3 vote in the Senate, and the president bites the dust. It was tried in the late 1990s, but failed to get past the second hurdle. The first time it was tried, it also failed to pass the second hurdle, although it came a lot closer then...

teddyv
2005-Nov-29, 10:10 PM
Ok; kidding aside, I've been trying to get some understanding on what's going on (without any slants about who said what:hand: ).
What exactly is a vote of no confidence? In what situations can it be done? What is the result of when this happens? What are the portions of the government involved?:confused:
I've been trying to piece it together from articles, but all I get is a lot of noise with a lot of fingerpointing.:naughty:

A vote of non-confidence is just that, in this case the opposition parties have expressed no confidence in the goverment to continue to run the government. Since the opposition parties combined outnumber the ruling party (minority government), the ruling party loses the vote. This is the first time the Canadian government was brought down on a strict vote of non-confidence. Other occurrences were usually on budget votes which are generally considered confidence votes.

Don't know if that clarified anything or made it worse.

GDwarf
2005-Nov-29, 10:19 PM
Ok; kidding aside, I've been trying to get some understanding on what's going on (without any slants about who said what:hand: ).
What exactly is a vote of no confidence? In what situations can it be done? What is the result of when this happens? What are the portions of the government involved?:confused:
I've been trying to piece it together from articles, but all I get is a lot of noise with a lot of fingerpointing.:naughty:
All the parties in the Canadian system who get seats get to vote, in the case of a minority government the currently 'ruling' party has fewer seats then the opposition combined, so they tend to form alliances. A vote of no confidence is when despite the aforementioned alliance the ruling party gets more votes against something it has proposed then for it, as such the majority of Canadians feel that their views on this, and possibly other, issues are not correct, and another election is called.

Moose
2005-Nov-29, 10:43 PM
GDwarf's got it.

Here's the thing: it's called a "Vote of No Confidence", but actual confidence doesn't have much to do with anything, generally speaking.

In a technical sense, the governing party lost a vote of substance. That's all it really means. In a practical sense, this can only happen when the governing party is in a minority situation. Although hypothetically speaking, it would be possible for a government to fall due to a massive rift among the backbenchers.

Not all votes are votes of substance, but spending legislation always requires a vote of substance. I'm not sure if this is by law or by tradition, but this is the first time in my recollection, federal or provincial, that a government has fallen on something other than a rejected budget.

The timing is interesting, too, because there was a budget and a major spending bill coming up in the next few months, and while either could have been defeated, doing either would likely hurt the opposition parties far more in popular support than it would the governing party. As it stands, both bills are stillborn.

What's even more interesting is that the election campaign is going to push the (January) budget into late Febuary or even March, most likely.

In any case, the fact that the "government fell" is going to have little tangible effect on Canadians. It's funny, but our political system (provincial and federal) doesn't really need anybody at the helm most of the time. The country almost runs itself.

Heh, and that's what our politicians are terrified we'll realize en masse.

LurchGS
2005-Nov-29, 10:57 PM
Well, in a way, the US does have a binding no-confidence vote, although it's a bit harder to get one through than in most parliamentary systems. But, a majority vote in the Congress, and a 2/3 vote in the Senate, and the president bites the dust. It was tried in the late 1990s, but failed to get past the second hurdle. The first time it was tried, it also failed to pass the second hurdle, although it came a lot closer then...


Ok, I'm picking nits..

Andrew Johnson was impeached, but the senate failed in conviction by one vote.

Clinton was impeached on *two* counts, but the senate failed in conviction by 10 votes on one charge, and by one vote (it was 50-50) on the second charge.

So, as I said, to pick nits - the vote against Johnson wasn't 'a lot closer'

Candy
2005-Nov-29, 11:17 PM
What's up with the French thing anyway? Last I checked, Canada was not located in France. Assimilate by now, eh? ;)

LurchGS
2005-Nov-29, 11:20 PM
heh, the French Canukians are more french than the french. My thought is, they're the Canadian equivalent of the blacks here in the states, only better organized

----

/me runs quickly from the room, ducking and weaving, hoping not to get hit

Candy
2005-Nov-29, 11:26 PM
heh, the French Canukians are more french than the french. My thought is, they're the Canadian equivalent of the blacks here in the states, only better organized

----

/me runs quickly from the room, ducking and weaving, hoping not to get hit
French Connection: And rude, don't forget extremely rude! Or is pompous a better word?

Moose
2005-Nov-29, 11:28 PM
LurchGS, I'd ask that you not go there, as neither of your comparisons are appropriate or even remotely accurate in my mind. In any case, we are who we are and generally feel no great need to measure up to anyone's expectations but our own.

I would ask for a retraction of both claims, unless you can somehow dig up evidence.

Moose
2005-Nov-29, 11:31 PM
French Connection: And rude, don't forget extremely rude! Or is pompous a better word?

I think you need a wider brush for your generalization, Candy.

LurchGS
2005-Nov-29, 11:41 PM
Moose - I apologise - it was intended as tongue in cheek, but it IS based on personal experience.

let's see...

Both groups insist on their own language
Both groups insist on their own culture
Both groups feel beset upon by the majority
Both groups have a reputation for rudeness

These are generalizations and appearances. I'm sure that most of those in either group are anything at all like the perception. The ones I know certainly aren't.

For anybody else, I also apologize - being such a mutt (i.e. having so many cultures in my ancestry) I feel relatively safe in poking a little fun at *everybody*

turbo-1
2005-Nov-29, 11:44 PM
Hey, folks! The maternal side of my family is Fench/Indian. I am not fluent, by any means, but have found out that if you at least "try" to speak French during your visit to the French areas of the Great White North, the locals will usually take pity on you and swing into pretty good English. I have partied with the French and Anglo Canadians in Nova Scotia, NB, and Quebec, and can tell you that they are pretty nice folks. If you fall into a crowd of French-speakers (like the bikers I ran into one time) often a person with good English skills will adopt you and run interference.

Go to Winter Carnival in QC and see if you don't have a bit of fun.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 12:07 AM
I think you need a wider brush for your generalization, Candy.
Okay. :razz:

On a funnier note: I once met a Canadian from France who married a Canadian from India. He learned to speak English with a Hindu accent. Strangest thing I’ve ever heard listening to him speak. My head kept leaning back and forth to each side as I would wonder how in the world...

What has been the population growth for Canada over the last 10 years? I know business for outsourcing has increased. My company uses EDS in Nova Scotia. I often hear a canadian accent on the other end of the phone when I order something. I'm surprised that they don't have a "Hollywood" located there, too. It's cheaper to make movies, or so I hear.

Swift
2005-Nov-30, 12:12 AM
Moose - I apologise - it was intended as tongue in cheek, but it IS based on personal experience.

let's see...

Both groups insist on their own language
Both groups insist on their own culture
Both groups feel beset upon by the majority
Both groups have a reputation for rudeness

I lived in France for a year (in the 80s) and have known several French Canadians. A woman I worked with in France told a story about visiting Quebec and having so much trouble understanding the French of the customs officer that they had to speak to each other in English, even though they were both native speakers of "French". I have heard similar stories from others.

Don't most people, whoever they are, insist on their own culture?

LurchGS
2005-Nov-30, 12:16 AM
I lived in France for a year (in the 80s) and have known several French Canadians. A woman I worked with in France told a story about visiting Quebec and having so much trouble understanding the French of the customs officer that they had to speak to each other in English, even though they were both native speakers of "French". I have heard similar stories from others.

Don't most people, whoever they are, insist on their own culture?


Within the home, and occasionally, neighborhood, sure - but not to the extent of forcing it on the majority

I have a company rep I deal with up in the great white - wonderful guy, but he's chinese, and you should hear him speak english with a chinese/french canadian accent! ABout turns my brain in knots!

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 12:17 AM
Both groups insist on their own language
Both groups insist on their own culture
Both groups feel beset upon by the majority
Both groups have a reputation for rudeness

This is wrong on so many levels (not just ironically misguided, but blindingly wrong) that I can't express a proper rebuttle. I simply wouldn't know where to begin.

First off, most French Canadians are bilingual. It's not terribly uncommon for Canadians (french or otherwise) to be at least passingly familiar with three or more languages.

Urban Quebecers are frequently aloof with strangers until they know you're not secretly sneering at them for being who they are, and/or not trying to pressure them into being what they're not. When they get to know you a bit, then they can be the warmest people on the planet. In Quebec, rude begets rude, and this is what trips up most outsiders.

When I was in the hospital, my uncle (who apparently forgot I'm bilingual) wrote me a nice letter/card in english. His written english is halting at best. It had to have taken him a lot of effort to write, and I love the guy for it. When I proposed to my (ex-)fiancée at a family picnic, she'd been welcomed as if she'd already been family.

Maritime Acadians are more generally amicable up-front, but (far) less demonstrative than most Quebeckers. That said, our language and culture is officially protected by New Brunswick's constitution, and generally supported by the other maritime governments.


I feel relatively safe in poking a little fun at *everybody*

Believe me when I say that as a Canadian, I not only understand, but fully encourage intercultural ribbing, but I think the line between funny and inappropriate was crossed.

I appreciate your apology, however, and will accept it at face value. Even if it was marred, somewhat, by the rest of your post.

teddyv
2005-Nov-30, 12:23 AM
I'm surprised that they don't have a "Hollywood" located there, too. It's cheaper to make movies, or so I hear.

Vancouver is somewhat known as "Hollywood North" (I know Toronto also hosts a lot of films). A very large movie industry is present here.

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 12:28 AM
Within the home, and occasionally, neighborhood, sure - but not to the extent of forcing it on the majority

Uh, the majority of French Canadians are francophone (obviously), and even beyond this, the majority of Quebec residents are francophone, (as is roughly 40% of New Brunswick's population.)

Forcing everyone to speak english (and thus bowing to external pressures, not unlike the position you've taken) would be forcing a language on the majority.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 12:41 AM
Moose, there's a reason one gets a world known and accepted reputation. Canadian accent: "Don't you know?" I'd love to visit Quebec someday. The beauty alone, via media, is simply breathtaking.

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 12:51 AM
It's an undeserved reputation. In any case, and that's the last I'll say about it tonight, I'll repost a paragraph from earlier.

This is, in a nutshell, just about all you need to know about getting along with the average Quebeckers.


Urban Quebecers are frequently aloof with strangers until they know you're not secretly sneering at them for being who they are, and/or not trying to pressure them into being what they're not. When they get to know you a bit, then they can be the warmest people on the planet. In Quebec, rude begets rude, and this is what trips up most outsiders.

And this is based on a lifetime of interacting with them, and travelling all over quebec. This is as true of family, friends, and complete strangers, including a community that hosted me and a good 120 other functional anglophones over six weeks one summer, something they'd done every year for decades.

Accept them for who they are, meet them half way (or as much as you can manage) with sincerity, and they'll simply adore you for it.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 12:56 AM
Within the home, and occasionally, neighborhood, sure - but not to the extent of forcing it on the majority
I agree.

I did as the Alaskans did while in Alaska. Corny as it was, I sat around a fireplace and christmas tree and sang the wrong words to christmas songs. I just had forgotten the words.

I take off my shoes while entering the home of an asian person. It's a custom thing.

I don't look directly into certain foreign men's eyes. It's a respect thing. This one needs to change. IMO.

I've been around enough people that I automatically kick into their customs "mode" as a sign of respect. I've even adopted some of their customs as my own.

I do the above, unless it is just wrong to condone bad behavior.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 01:00 AM
I was under the impression that for a while non French outdoor commerical signs of any sort were illegal in Quebec, all business has to be done in French, and all public school teaching has to be done in French unless one or more parents were taught in English. French is the language of all provincial and sub-provincial government activities. So in Quebec the official language is the language of the majority, and there are restrictions on the use of languages not used by the majority. On the other hand, over half of Canadians are native English speakers, while less than a quarter are native French speakers. However, in Canadian federal government all activities must be carried out in both English and French. The language of the majority has no special place, unlike in Quebec. If the Canadian federal government followed the same rule as the Quebec provincial government, all government activities would be carried out in English.

LurchGS
2005-Nov-30, 01:01 AM
Candy

Exactly as we should.

And of course you shouldn't look into men's eyes - women just suck our souls out that way. can't have that!

---

for those of you who care, this is my 700th post. I've used this forum 700 times to potentially irritate the snot out of somebody!

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 01:03 AM
I want to visit Halifax, too. I want to give thanks to all the folks who miraculously assisted stranded passengers on 9/11. What an awesome selfless gesture. I hear this is not the first time the good folks of Halifax helped strangers in need. The city should get a Nobel Peace Prize, hopefully, during my lifetime.

paulie jay
2005-Nov-30, 01:05 AM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work? Would Canada be better off if it had an extra 100 million or so people? There are US states that have almost as many people as the whole of Canada.
Here's a comparison Banquo - Australia has a population of 20 million in an area roughly equvilant to the USA. We're not exactly falling apart or in danger of slipping into the third world. And we probably wouldn't be better off with an extra 100 million people. It would just be the USA with seasons at different times of the year. :)

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 01:06 AM
Urban Quebecers are frequently aloof with strangers until they know you're not secretly sneering at them for being who they are, and/or not trying to pressure them into being what they're not. When they get to know you a bit, then they can be the warmest people on the planet. In Quebec, rude begets rude, and this is what trips up most outsiders.

So, people are assumed guilty until proven innocent? Quebec people just assume everybody they don't know is secretely being rude behind their backs unless the person proves they aren't? I'm sorry, but I do not condone being rude to everybody you (not you in particular, Moose, I mean the "royal" you) don't know whether they are rude to you or not just on the off chance they may secretely be rude to you behind your back. I don't condone being rude under any circumstances, but it is far worse to be rude to everybody you meet just because there is a slight possibility they might be rude to you at some point in the future. As you are saying, "rude begets rude". If you are rude to everybody you don't already know, you can assume that many of them will be rude back.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 01:13 AM
I was under the impression that for a while non French outdoor commerical signs of any sort were illegal in Quebec, all business has to be done in French, and all public school teaching has to be done in French unless one or more parents were taught in English. French is the language of all provincial and sub-provincial government activities. So in Quebec the official language is the language of the majority, and there are restrictions on the use of languages not used by the majority. On the other hand, over half of Canadians are native English speakers, while less than a quarter are native French speakers. However, in Canadian federal government all activities must be carried out in both English and French. The language of the majority has no special place, unlike in Quebec. If the Canadian federal government followed the same rule as the Quebec provincial government, all government activities would be carried out in English.
So that's why products I purchase that say "Made in Canada" are in both English and French? I've always wondered about that - good to know. I'm not sure why, but it's good to know. :)

Side note: Lurch is being bad. Women don't suck out the souls of men. Remember, men have no souls. http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 01:16 AM
Here's a comparison Banquo - Australia has a population of 20 million in an area roughly equvilant to the USA. We're not exactly falling apart or in danger of slipping into the third world. And we probably wouldn't be better off with an extra 100 million people. It would just be the USA with seasons at different times of the year. :)

Also look at Alaska. It is about 1/3 the size of the rest of the US combined but only has about 0.2% of its population.

paulie jay
2005-Nov-30, 01:20 AM
Also look at Alaska. It is about 1/3 the size of the rest of the US combined but only has about 0.2% of its population.
Yeeeeessss, but then Alaska is a state, not a country :)

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 01:24 AM
Poor Moose, he's having to defend French-Canada all by his lonesome.

It's not Canada that irritates others, it's the association with France that irritates others. I could be speaking for myself, but I don't think so. :shifty:

paulie jay
2005-Nov-30, 01:29 AM
Don't worry Moose - we Aussies like you guys!

turbo-1
2005-Nov-30, 01:54 AM
So, people are assumed guilty until proven innocent? Quebec people just assume everybody they don't know is secretely being rude behind their backs unless the person proves they aren't? I'm sorry, but I do not condone being rude to everybody you (not you in particular, Moose, I mean the "royal" you) don't know whether they are rude to you or not just on the off chance they may secretely be rude to you behind your back.That is SO far off the mark! Please calm down and consider that when tourists come to your home and expect special treatment, you may be less likely to be really nice to them. When people come to Maine and give servers at restaurants, clerks at groceries stores, etc, a hard time, these service people get an attitude. When someone comes here and politely asks what menu substitutions are available and if there are "specials", they get treated very nicely.

Nice begets nice. Rude begets rude. When a millionaire investment banker pushes a waitress here in Maine "just because he can" he may get grudging compliance, but his service is going to suck. Rich people who are gracious and generous to their servers (there are many "old money" summer people on Mt Desert Island) are accepted in their communities, and the locals like dealing with them and respect their privacy and confidentiality. A lot of the crap aimed at the French Canadians is contaminated by "I was there" statements from people who obviously expected to be feted and loved, without making the effort to "fit in".

BTW, the Quebec bikers that I hooked up with thought that it was really fun to put on "smoke shows" (burning off rear tires) and the young female translator that "adopted" me explained to them that I thought it was pretty cool to get 10,000 miles out of a set of tires on my Harley, and they were amazed that I put on 7000 or so miles/year just commuting to work and going on short weekend jaunts. Their riding season is so short...they see bikes in a different way than I do.

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 02:01 AM
I was under the impression that for a while non French outdoor commerical signs of any sort were illegal in Quebec, all business has to be done in French, and all public school teaching has to be done in French unless one or more parents were taught in English.

Not quite accurate.

All commercial signs in Quebec must be primarily French. This means the French print may not be in smaller font than the rest of the sign, and all information presented on the sign must be legible in French. Other languages may be used without restriction whatsoever, so long as the legally mandated French equivalencies are maintained.

Business may be done in any language whatsoever agreeable to both parties (including Klingon and Esperanto, if of a mind), so long as the client has the option of doing business in French. This can be as simple as maintaining a french speaker on staff, although this tends to not be that much of an issue in practice.

As for the schooling, children may attend whatever private school the parents care to shell out for. However, while the Quebec government is legally required to provide english and/or french immersion schools where the population makes such a facility appropriate, it is within its rights (according to the courts) to choose not to shell out for a non-french public education where both parents (and thus the child) are of a francophone ancestry. If either parent is anglophone, the parents may opt to attend either an english school (as available) or a french school according to their preferences.

None of these things are unreasonable, though the PQ was heavier-handed about the whole thing than I'm entirely comfortable with. I've never thought it was necessary (or advisable) to enact such protectionism.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 02:07 AM
That is SO far off the mark! Please calm down and consider that when tourists come to your home and expect special treatment, you may be less likely to be really nice to them. When people come to Maine and give servers at restaurants, clerks at groceries stores, etc, a hard time, these service people get an attitude. When someone comes here and politely asks what menu substitutions are available and if there are "specials", they get treated very nicely.

Nice begets nice. Rude begets rude. When a millionaire investment banker pushes a waitress here in Maine "just because he can" he may get grudging compliance, but his service is going to suck. Rich people who are gracious and generous to their servers (there are many "old money" summer people on Mt Desert Island) are accepted in their communities, and the locals like dealing with them and respect their privacy and confidentiality. A lot of the crap aimed at the French Canadians is contaminated by "I was there" statements from people who obviously expected to be feted and loved, without making the effort to "fit in".

That is very true, but it is not what Moose said. He said:


Urban Quebecers are frequently aloof with strangers until they know you're not secretly sneering at them for being who they are, and/or not trying to pressure them into being what they're not.

Although I do not think it is right to be rude to people who are rude to you first, the issue is debatable. But what Moose seems to be saying is that people in urban Quebec assume people that they do not know are rude from the very start, and treat them rude back even if the person in question was never actually rude to them to begin with. If people in Quebec are being rude back to people who were rude to them first, while I do not agree with that it is at least somewhat acceptable and it wouldn't be any different than any other part of the world I have been to. On the other hand, Moose seems to be saying that people in Quebec are rude to people first because they assume that person will be rude to them later. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they start off being rude to strangers of course many strangers will be rude back. That is all I am saying. If that is not how things really are, that is fine. I have only been to tourist areas of Quebec, but was never treated rudely there as far as I remember. I have no real experience with urban Quebec so I do not know how they really treat people. I am simply replying to what Moose said. If my interpretation of his statement or the statement itself was mistaken, that is fine. I can only go by what I read.

wayneee
2005-Nov-30, 02:13 AM
I love Canada, great beer, and you can breath. Quebecians are just aloof, but hell they are not half as bad as Parisians who are downright pompus.

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 02:15 AM
A lot of the crap aimed at the French Canadians is contaminated by "I was there" statements from people who obviously expected to be feted and loved, without making the effort to "fit in".

Thanks Turbo.

TheBlackCat, please review this thread and look at the first two posts where French Canadians are mentionned, just before I chose to weigh in. Read carefully. Do you see a hint of "guilty until proven innocent" about those posts?

Such attitudes are far too common. Quebeckers get almost as much undeserved grief from outsiders as the actual French do. After a few decades taking bovine fecal matter from strangers, one can get a little touchy and I can't blame them for that.

I speak this as someone who has both an insider's and outsider's perspective of both sides of the border:

You don't have to suck-up or anything, nobody expects that. But, if when visiting Quebec, you treat Quebeckers as if you were a houseguest (which you are, in a way), if you make an effort to respect the culture, you will be treated as warmly as a houseguest can be.

Quebec hospitality is exuberant.

Moose
2005-Nov-30, 02:23 AM
If my interpretation of his statement or the statement itself was mistaken, that is fine. I can only go by what I read.

You're a bit off, still. I'd said they'd tend to be aloof, not (necessarily) rude. I'm not saying they'll mouth off at you or anything, that's as rare as anywhere else. I mean aloof in the generally reserved sense. Generally professional but no warmth. Emotionally distant.

Contrast with, say Cape Bretoners, who tend to be warm and friendly right from the outset, and far more casual in their professional approach than, say, your hypothetical urban quebecker. Part of this is probably due to the fact that Cape Breton is nearly entirely a rural center, with generally rural attitudes.

There's a lot to love in both places, but as in all travel, it really pays to try and understand the culture before you arrive.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 02:40 AM
All commercial signs in Quebec must be primarily French. This means the French print may not be in smaller font than the rest of the sign, and all information presented on the sign must be legible in French. Other languages may be used without restriction whatsoever, so long as the legally mandated French equivalencies are maintained.
That is how it is now, but that is only because the legal requirement for French-only signs present in the original form of Bill 101 was struck down in by the Canadian supreme court. This was not a voluntary change on the part of the Quebec government, and they are still forcing companies to make signs primiarly in French.


Business may be done in any language whatsoever agreeable to both parties (including Klingon and Esperanto, if of a mind), so long as the client has the option of doing business in French. This can be as simple as maintaining a french speaker on staff, although this tends to not be that much of an issue in practice.
Nope, under Bill 101 it is the other way around. By default all business must be done in French, but business may be done in another language in addition if one of the parties explicitly requests it. Business names must also be in French.


As for the schooling, children may attend whatever private school the parents care to shell out for. However, while the Quebec government is legally required to provide english and/or french immersion schools where the population makes such a facility appropriate, it is within its rights (according to the courts) to choose not to shell out for a non-french public education where both parents (and thus the child) are of a francophone ancestry. If either parent is anglophone, the parents may opt to attend either an english school (as available) or a french school according to their preferences.
Private schools are not the issue, this issue is state-sponsored education. Allowing children of English-speaking parents to be taught in public school in English was not allowed intially under Bill 101, but this provision was overturned by the Canadian supreme court. Once again, not a voluntary change on Quebec's part. Toys and games that require understanding of a language other than French also cannot be sold in Canada.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 02:41 AM
I love Canada, great beer, and you can breath. Quebecians are just aloof, but hell they are not half as bad as Parisians who are downright pompus.
See, it's the French Connection thing that people remember. :lol:

I keep saying French Connection because it is a cool movie with Gene Hackman. I love Gene!

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 02:46 AM
You're a bit off, still. I'd said they'd tend to be aloof, not (necessarily) rude. I'm not saying they'll mouth off at you or anything, that's as rare as anywhere else. I mean aloof in the generally reserved sense. Generally professional but no warmth. Emotionally distant.
Well, then I misunderstood. I apologize. Mildly aloof is perfectly acceptable. Rude is bad, but I am not aware of any requirement that people be warm and cuddly to perfect strangers :)

Sam5
2005-Nov-30, 02:53 AM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work? Would Canada be better off if it had an extra 100 million or so people? There are US states that have almost as many people as the whole of Canada.

Hey, pssst, here's a tip.... buy large tracts of land in Northern Canada. If this global warming keeps up, in 20 years the northern coastline will become the new Caribbean. :)

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 03:01 AM
Hey, pssst, here's a tip.... buy large tracts of land in Northern Canada. If this global warming keeps up, in 20 years the northern coastline will become the new Caribbean. :)
Spit up drink laughing, thank you! :lol:

Oh wait, you're being serious, aren't you?

Didn't we (USA) just sign a new trade agreement with Canada?
I tried to google it, but I kept getting links to negativity on the subject. :rolleyes:

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 03:37 AM
Can I just add to this thread that I don't trust the French. I know I shouldn't say this, but I can't stop myself from writing this. If Canada (any part) wants to associate themselves with France, then you lose my respect. Sorry, that's just the way I (and a lot of others) feel. I know I am not speaking alone when I write these words.

Other than that little "faux paux", I love Canada!

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 03:44 AM
Oh, yeah, "you" want to not be looped in with the USA really hurt your country for a brief moment. "Your" slow but surely anticipated actions soon retified the momentary lapse for indiscretion. Remember "your" leaders words from just after 9/11? I do. I will not soon forget, either.

peter eldergill
2005-Nov-30, 05:19 AM
How can a fun thread like this one was turn so ugly so fast?

I mention hockey pucks and then things turn ugly. This could also get really political, espicially if people keep making vast, vast generalizations about other cultures.

I'm walking away from this before I say something stupid

Pete

LurchGS
2005-Nov-30, 05:23 AM
Yeeeeessss, but then Alaska is a state, not a country :)
it's just bigger than most countries 8)

LurchGS
2005-Nov-30, 05:34 AM
I think I broke the fun part of this here thread. dirty bad

And men do too have sou.... er... no, wait, as a dyed in the wool athiest, I can't say that, can I?

I've been to most of the provinces, and there are few places in the states I'd rather be.

Besides, how bad could a place be that gave us William Shatner (Montreal, PQ) and The Arrogant Worms?

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 05:47 AM
I"m still ****ed off that Canada even sided with France after 9/11. Okay, I willl NOT forget.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 05:52 AM
Yeeeeessss, but then Alaska is a state, not a country :)
Well, technically a state is a country and a country is region. We americans just use wierd definitions for things.

The point about Alaska is simply in regards to its population density, or lack thereof. It is still completely stable despite having about 1 person per square mile.

Another interesting thing about alaska is the demographics. There were a lot more men than women. The women there kept saying in reference to the gender ratio, "the odds are good but the goods are odd". It is not as bad as it used to be, but Alaska is still has the lowest percent females of any state.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 05:53 AM
I"m still pised off that Canada even sided with France after 9/11. Okay, I willl NOT forget.
Yes, France and pretty much the entire rest of the world.

TheBlackCat
2005-Nov-30, 05:56 AM
Besides, how bad could a place be that gave us William Shatner (Montreal, PQ) and The Arrogant Worms?

Don't forget You Can't Do That On Television. Best TV show ever.

Oh, yeah, and my mom and her entire family, too :p

montebianco
2005-Nov-30, 05:58 AM
I"m still pised off that Canada even sided with France after 9/11. Okay, I willl NOT forget.

I will decline to say whether I think the policies of the Canadian government are good policies or bad policies, but I would like to point out that Canada deployed military forces to Afghanistan, along with the US, UK, and many other countries, and that some Canadian military personnel were even killed in a friendly fire incident involving US warplanes...

More to the OT, Canada has been around for a while, and while one can always quibble about why one country is better or worse than another, the UN Human Development Index routinely places Canada as the best or one of the best countries in the world in which to live. All told, I think the problems of Canada are probably problems most countries would like to have...

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 06:02 AM
Yes, France and pretty much the entire rest of the world.
Thank you. I just realized my Same Sex Marriage article is exploding on wiki.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 06:13 AM
Hey I'm published!

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Nov-30, 06:32 AM
Yikes. This thread hit the proverbial socio-political fan pretty fast...

Anyway, Moose: You're Acadian? So am I! My mother's from Yarmouth.

Parrothead
2005-Nov-30, 06:45 AM
Can a country like Canada with such a small population in such a large geographic area continue to work? Would Canada be better off if it had an extra 100 million or so people? There are US states that have almost as many people as the whole of Canada.

Yes, we can and will continue to work. I'd hate to think of what Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver would look like with all that added population ;) As for Canadian unity... the IIHF World Jrs tournament start, is now less than a month away... :)

Enzp
2005-Nov-30, 06:55 AM
Wow. This thread sure bloomed, and I find it hard to believe the level of hostility bubbling barely beneath the surface. I like Canada, it is not far away. Quarter Pounder with Cheese sounds so much classier as Quartre du Livre avec Fromage. (or however it is spelled) When our band played over there in the late 1960s early 1970s we were locally popular and they greeted us warmly. Why does it need to be more populated?

Regardless of what France or Canada may or may not have done after 9/11, those are acts of government, not the general populace. A shop keeper in Quebec doesn't deserve any guff over it. I certainly would feel hostility was misplaced if a visitor from some other company was nasty to me because of something the Bush administration did.

Swift
2005-Nov-30, 06:56 AM
Can I just add to this thread that I don't trust the French. I know I shouldn't say this, but I can't stop myself from writing this. If Canada (any part) wants to associate themselves with France, then you lose my respect. Sorry, that's just the way I (and a lot of others) feel. I know I am not speaking alone when I write these words.

Other than that little "faux paux", I love Canada!
I hate to further turn a fun thread serious, but I also would like to add a few thoughts.

I personally don't like to judge any group of people negatively as a whole. Even if it might be true for some majority (doubtful), you are missing out on opportunities with the wonderful minority that don't exhibit that negative characteristic.

I am particularly sensitive to being classified as rude. I was born and raised a New Yorker (city) and along with the French and French Canadians, it seems to be the truth among everyone else that we are also just rude. I won't deny that certain groups, cultures, and regions have personalities, but that is a long way from all xxx-ers are yyy. I lived in NYC for 21 years and France for another year and I met as many kind, polite, caring citizens in each location as I met nasty ones. I wonder if some of this is self-fulfilling, if you expect New Yorkers to be rude, every rude one you meet is proof, and the rest are abberant data points to be tossed out of your data analysis.

As far as post 9/11 opinions of other countries, I'll just say this. If a dear and long time friend of mine cares enough about me to let me know when I have behaved badly or made a mistake in judgment, I believe I am wise to listen to their advice. And if after that, I choose to stick with my course of action, then we will agree to disagree and I will do everything I can to preserve our friendship, in spite of our disagreement. I think the same rule should apply to countries.

My opinions about what actions of what countries was right or wrong is well beyond the scope of this board.

hewhocaves
2005-Nov-30, 07:20 AM
good lord this thread turned ugly fast, eh?

seriously... canada is my immediate back-up plan when the good-ole US stops being "good" and "ole". europe is probably the long term goal if that happens, but canada is only a full gas tank away. and i suspect I'm not the only one thinking that...

a few things about our friends up north that i'd like to bring up.

I want to see hudson bay. it looks like I can drive to the very bottom of it, (the southernmost latitude of the bay.. not the actual bottom of the bay!) but not much farther. lots of parkland and whatnot along the way and definatley something to do only during the summer.

driving from niagra falls to toronto is telephone pole city. reminds me of new jersey during the 1970s.

on the same trip... sitting in the hotel jacuzzi in niagra falls with my g/f, two semipro hockey players from Toronto joined us and in the ensuing conversation they revealed the following things:
1) Toronto was the most culturally diverse city on the planet. Paris was second, tokoyo was third. (i didn't have the heart to ask where NYC showed up on that list).
2) they wanted to know how we could live in NJ with all the crime. I discovered that one of them actually visited NJ. What parts? Newark and Camden.

lastly on that trip... Niagra Falls in january may not be the best vacation place. Walking a mile through a blizzard. (horizontal snow, instant frostibite) was fun.

I want to visit that place Colin Mocharie always talks about. What was it? "Left Noob".

And thank god the US lost in Quebec.... if you thought getting the signs changed was annoying through Ottowa, good luck with DC! Or, to put it more bluntly consider the following concept:
"French Canadian Fast Food"

Oh.. and lastly. Maudite Beer.... EXCELLENT!
while all the beer comanies are putting naked ladies (near enough!) on their logos, you put Satan and lumberjacks on yours. hear hear! (i had this beer in, of all places, Disneyworld).

http://www.unibroue.com/products/maudite.cfm

john

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 08:29 AM
My opinions about what actions of what countries was right or wrong is well beyond the scope of this board.
Funny, I was taught to behave toward other cultures, long before 9/11, accordingly. Does this make sense? I'm getting mad, and I want to talk about it.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 09:07 AM
France just gets my goat! :mad:

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 09:11 AM
Dang it! I'm so mad right now thinking about France. Not Canada - I feel sorry for them for falling for such a silly country's influence. Dang it! :mad:

montebianco
2005-Nov-30, 09:20 AM
I'm getting mad, and I want to talk about it.

That happened once before, and the consequences were not good.

Why don't you take a break, and talk about it tomorrow? The posts will all still be here.

Nick

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 09:22 AM
You know what, I was happy to see civil uproar in their country (France) - with the Muslims. I was happy, sad as it sounds. I thought welcome to current world! Now, you may want to join the rest of us with fighting terrorism.

Candy
2005-Nov-30, 09:23 AM
That happened once before, and the consequences were not good.

Why don't you take a break, and talk about it tomorrow? The posts will all still be here.

Nick
You are right. I'll take a breather.

montebianco
2005-Nov-30, 09:23 AM
Candy, it's just my opinion, but I think it would be a good idea if you took a little break for a short while. The forum isn't going anywhere.

Nick

Edit - I didn't see your last post before this one. See you tomorrow!

Lianachan
2005-Nov-30, 09:49 AM
Forcing everyone to speak english (and thus bowing to external pressures, not unlike the position you've taken) would be forcing a language on the majority.

In the aftermath of the Battle of Culloden (1746), the Gaelic language was outlawed in Scotland - it was the native tongue of the Scottish Highlander. This was tied in with laws prohibiting pretty much everything to do with Highland culture. We've never really recovered from this, despite the laws not being that long lasting.

So enforced language changes are not entirely unprecedented.

Wolverine
2005-Nov-30, 12:51 PM
I"m still ****ed off that Canada even sided with France after 9/11. Okay, I willl NOT forget.
http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon4.gif Candy, watch your language. If you see asterisks like those above it means the forum software has censored an inappropriate term that you shouldn't have used. If you get angry about something, close the window and take a break. Ill-tempered posts will definitely get you in trouble (or anyone else for that matter). Don't make the same mistake again.

To everyone else: I'm rather appalled by the blatant disregard for our forum rules (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=564845#post564845) concerning political discussion (and that the instances in this thread went unreported). Several users really crossed the line here and should be thankful that account suspensions aren't being handed out.

Locked.