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Enzp
2005-Dec-07, 08:23 AM
Today is December 7th and as happens each year...


I have a friend whose father was black and whose mother was Japanese, and every December 7th he attacks Pearl Bailey.








Ah, the annual telling of my favorite joke.

teri tait
2005-Dec-07, 09:17 AM
All cheered up, good:)

TriangleMan
2005-Dec-07, 01:09 PM
True story: When I was 13 we were in class on December 7th and the teacher was telling how on this day in 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and one girl asked "Who's Pearl Harbour?"

The class laughed for about five minutes, except for the teacher who I think was a little stunned. :lol:

mid
2005-Dec-07, 01:29 PM
Whose Pearl Harbor?

The Americans', at a guess.

mugaliens
2005-Dec-07, 06:05 PM
It's interesting that about the same number of Americans died in Pearl Harbor as died during the WTC bombings.

Back then, the Japanese were pretty viscious, but they still had rules, and honor code, if you will. Today's terrorists are by comparison far more amorphous.

Let us all take a few moments to pay our respects to those who valiently gave their lives, not only in the service of their country, but in helping many other countries escape tyranny.

peteshimmon
2005-Dec-07, 09:35 PM
For those of us born after WW2, it takes years
to get the details into perspective and it has
only been the last ten years that I
understand what an incredible event the
battle of Midway was. Apart from the valour
that is way beyond my comprehension, it shows
how being able to decode transmissions is
vital. And this is my question. Was it the
help of the Polish mathematicians that was
passed onto American agencies that led to the
triumph? The Polish work was a substantial
first chapter in defeating Enigma and I
understand the Japanese were using this type of
machine.

Candy
2005-Dec-07, 11:32 PM
Let us all take a few moments to pay our respects to those who valiently gave their lives, not only in the service of their country, but in helping many other countries escape tyranny.
We took a moment of silence, during our 0845 daily operations call, to remember. It was nice.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-08, 01:33 AM
Was it the
help of the Polish mathematicians that was
passed onto American agencies that led to the
triumph? The Polish work was a substantial
first chapter in defeating Enigma and I
understand the Japanese were using this type of
machine.
I hope you mean english agencies, decoding Enigma was an english thing (initiated by polish work done before the invasion), not american.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Dec-08, 01:35 AM
Yes, and I believe that the Japanese naval code machine was named "Purple." They didn't use Enigma.

Big Brother Dunk
2005-Dec-08, 01:37 AM
Good joke.:lol:
I'll have to remember that!

I've been to two places in the US that have a very tangible sense of history, where you can almost feel it. Dealey Plaza in Dallas and the USS Arizona memorial in Honolulu. Very awe-inspiring.


**edited to correct location**

peteshimmon
2005-Dec-08, 02:18 AM
Houston eh? You realise you have started a
whole new chapter in That conspiracy! The
Poles gave their knowledge to English
officials in 1938 I think and I raaaather
think it was passed across the Atlantic!

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Dec-08, 02:28 AM
Yes, but the Poles only had information about the German Enigma machine. The Japanese Purple machine was entirely different.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-08, 02:44 AM
The knowledge itself wasn't very useful without the infrastructure to intercept the Enigma coded transmissions, use them to calculate the code used for that day and decode the intercepted transmission.
This work was all done at Blechley Park, England.

There'd be little point in doing it in America as they where mainly concerned with fighting Japanese troups who used JN-25 (and not Purple which was used for diplomatic communication, not operational orders), which needed completely different tools to break.

Also, remember that until '41 America was not an ally, but a neutral.
Sharing Top Secret info with neutrals is a very big no-no when you're fighting a war.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Dec-08, 02:51 AM
Hah! JN-25! That's what it was! I knew Purple sounded kind of off... thanks.

Anyway, yes, Turing and his "bombes" were really what broke Enigma.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-08, 03:03 AM
Anyway, yes, Turing and his "bombes" were really what broke Enigma.
And to get back to what I think was peteshimmon's main question, the "bombes" where originally conceived by a Polish cryptanalysist who could see his country wouldn't have the ability to use the knowledge after it was occupied and made sure it was given to the English before that happened.

soylentgreen
2005-Dec-08, 03:40 AM
True story: When I was 13 we were in class on December 7th and the teacher was telling how on this day in 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and one girl asked "Who's Pearl Harbour?"

The class laughed for about five minutes, except for the teacher who I think was a little stunned. :lol:

I was at Pearl earlier this year and was quite impressed by the respectful behavior of the crowds(and quite intrigued by the number of Japanese tourists drawn to there, as well). Although the frenzied gift shop reminded me just how much even a place as solemn as Arizona memorial is, it's still just a tourist stop "you have to have been to" for a lot of people. I lament it at Gettysburg when I go every year, and I was saddened to see it on Oahu. I know is not a tremendous percentage, but it still saddens me. Most people in my state have no idea that they can barely walk a mile without stepping on ground that saw some important event in our Revolution.

As a history freak, I have to confess I walked out of the gift shop with quite some booty, aaarrrrrrggghh!

Oddly enough, Fox Movie Channel ran some war films this afternoon, but they were all European theater related...D-DAY, LONGEST DAY, PATTON....no sign of TORA, TORA, TORA! Go figure!

Big Brother Dunk
2005-Dec-08, 04:12 AM
Houston eh? You realise you have started a
whole new chapter in That conspiracy!<snip>

Doh!!!:doh:

Actually I just booked my flights to Houston in January, so I've got the wrong city Texas on my mind.

sarongsong
2005-Dec-08, 04:19 AM
...I've been to two places in the US that have a very tangible sense of history, where you can almost feel it. Dealey Plaza in Houston and the USS Arizona memorial in Honolulu. Very awe-inspiring.Today's ceremony (http://starbulletin.com/2005/12/07/news/story01.html) at Pearl
...Among the Pearl Harbor survivors will be five crew members from the destroyer USS Ward, which reported the sighting of the conning tower of a midget submarine trying to sneak into Pearl Harbor 70 minutes before the Japanese attack in 1941. The Ward's warning went unheeded.
The Ward fired two shots, hitting the conning tower with the second one and sinking it in 1,200 feet of water outside the Pearl Harbor channel...Additionally, in a local San Diego TV interview, one of the veteran survivors recalled he and his buddies seeing a Japanese Zero in flight on December 6, but thought it was just a realistic part of their training exercises, so didn't report it.

Heid the Ba'
2005-Dec-08, 02:04 PM
"English" should be "British" throughout.

Tim Thompson
2005-Dec-08, 04:20 PM
The Japanese naval codes were broken by a team of navy officers led by Commander Joseph Rochefort, the role played by Hal Holbrook in Tora Tora Tora (see Naval Historic Center FAQ on Battle of Midway (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq81-1.htm)). Their task was quite independent of the British team at Bletchley Park (http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/) which broke the "enigma" code (http://www.xat.nl/enigma/), or the U.S. team that broke the Japanese diplomatic code (the "MAGIC" intercepts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(cryptography))).

Code breaking (http://home.earthlink.net/~nbrass1/enigma.htm) was a major part of the allied victory in WWII, and became a major part of the "cold war" that followed, between the US & USSR. With the help of traitors in the US navy, and the capture of the USS Pueblo (http://www.usspueblo.org/), the USSR broke the naval codes early on, and throughout the cold war, were well aware of US naval ship distribution world wide.

WWII was enormous (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/). Those of us born in the shadow of the war grew up with nothing but WWII (http://www.wwiimemorial.com/) everywhere, on TV, in the movies, in books, everywhere. Every male adult that I knew as a kid, fought in the war, including almost all of my school teachers. As a kid I studied the war, reading all of the encyclopedias, all of the history that I could. I never stopped, it still fascinates me how huge the war was, and how single moment and single decisions, can so radically alter the course of history.

At the battle of Midway, for instance, the Japanese lost all 4 of their big carriers. But the Americans lost almost all of their airplanes sinking them. The Japanese still had several smaller escort carriers, and a powerful surface fleet & invasion force. Had they pressed the attack anyway, they would without question have taken Midway, exposing Pearl Harbor to air attack. The course of the war in the Pacific would have been radically different. But the Japanese overestimated the strength of the American force and withdrew. They made the same mistake earlier at Pearl Harbor by failing to sufficiently attack the harbor itself, preferring to settle for the destruction of the ships. Throughout the war that Japanese were remarkably lacking in imagination.


Back then, the Japanese were pretty viscious, but they still had rules, and honor code, if you will.
They did as regards their own behavior relative to each other, and to the Emperor, but not towards their enemy. The treatment of prisoners by the Japanese was worse than atrocious, and beyond inhuman. In China they were so bad that German officers observing Japanese action sent messages back to Hitler, asking him to contact the Emperor and convince the Japanese to tone down the level of violence against the Chinese. Anyone mean enough to make the Nazi's nervous is really working hard at it.

Jim
2005-Dec-08, 05:02 PM
...led by Commander Joseph Rochefort, the role played by Hal Holbrook in Tora Tora Tora...

Er, Midway.

peteshimmon
2005-Dec-08, 07:41 PM
I agree I should have said British. The Enigma
machine was introduced as a commercial product
in the Twenties and taken up around the World.
The polish mathematicians gave a range of
techniques for decoding them. I wonder if these
ideas were gratefully taken up by American
agencies leading to success against Japanese
codes. If so it would mean the Poles planted the
seed that helped eventual victory in the
Pacific as well as European theatres.

Swift
2005-Dec-08, 10:01 PM
Oddly enough, Fox Movie Channel ran some war films this afternoon, but they were all European theater related...D-DAY, LONGEST DAY, PATTON....no sign of TORA, TORA, TORA! Go figure!
Fox! Don't get me started. :silenced: Bluto is probably in charge of scheduling.

Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

Eta C
2005-Dec-11, 02:38 AM
Properly speaking, PURPLE and ENIGMA were cyphers. Cyphers use transposed alphabets so that each letter in a message is replaced by a new one. The machines make decryption difficult by causing each letter to be encyphered by a different cypher alphabet. The trick to the decryption was to exploit regularities in that sequence caused by the machines. JN-25 was a super-encyphered code. That is, entire words and phrases were replaced by code words (or in this case, five digit numbers) and the resulting message was then encyphered manually by adding numbers from a random number table supplied with the code. This was much harder to decrypt, and it's no wonder that it took longer for Rochefort and the cryptanalysts at station HYPO (as it was called) to do so.

PURPLE was broken before the war, but JN-25 was not. Thus we knew from the diplomatic traffic that something was brewing. However, operational messages were sent in JN-25, and thus it was much harder to deduce that Pearl Harbor was the target.

I was living in Hawaii and working at Pearl Harbor at the time of the 50th anniversary in 1991. It was a major event.

mugaliens
2005-Dec-11, 06:25 PM
Enigma was a series of machines. The Poles broke the first two cyphers, the second harder than the first, in part because of shortcuts taken by the German encoders (not the code machine designers who'd have been aghast) which made it faster, but which drastically reduced the overal solution set. Thus the Poles knew of German invasion plans and while they couldn't stop them, they coordinated for help and got the second machine to Bletchey Park, where the British continued working on successively more difficult variations of the machine.