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SkepticJ
2005-Dec-27, 10:38 AM
In RotJ, the Death Star 2 is protected by a shield generator on one of Endor's moons. Well, why not have a copy of that generator on the Death Star itself, that way, just in case the one on the moon is taken out, they're not open to attack. Aren't Jedi and Sith supposed to be able to see the future, at least the possibilities? So, wouldn't The Emperor *know* that The Rebels could win by doing that?

In Star Trek: First Contact the Borg travel back in time to stop First Contact. It seems this wasn't their plan A, but they only did this after their cube was destroyed. How stupid does one have to be to not use this as their plan A, but in an actually sane way? See, what you do is go back in time when you're far outside The Federation. They don't know that you did and can't stop you. Then you fly to Earth and nuke the Phoenix and Dr. Zefram Cochrane from orbit. Bingo, no First Contact, thus no Federation in the future. I guess all those Borg implants make them STUPID. Now I love this movie, but it's logic really does fall to itty bitty bits.

Lightsabers, wouldn't a little dial, neural impulse reader etc. be good on one: so the blade length can be varied? I don't know about you, but if I were a Jedi I'd sure like to have one who's blade could be anything between 100 or more meters long and a millimeter. What a tool that'd be. Good for opening metal boxes, or cutting a decent sized spacecraft into non-functional bits with a few swipes.

Count Zero
2005-Dec-27, 12:30 PM
No, no, no, NO!

Anyone can poke holes in the logic of books, TV shows & movies. That's easier than shooting a duck in a shoebox. It's not much harder to come up with more plausible scenarios. Real imagination lies in figuring out a plausible reason why each seemingly illogical scenario actually makes sense.

Marvel comics has, for several decades, awarded its "No-Prize" to its readers who not only identify what seems to be a mistake, but also explain why it actually isn't a mistake.

SkepticJ has provided three starter problems. Can he (or anyone else here) take a stab at rationalizing them?

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-27, 01:12 PM
In RotJ, the Death Star 2 is protected by a shield generator on one of Endor's moons. Well, why not have a copy of that generator on the Death Star itself, that way, just in case the one on the moon is taken out, they're not open to attack. Aren't Jedi and Sith supposed to be able to see the future, at least the possibilities? So, wouldn't The Emperor *know* that The Rebels could win by doing that?
This could easily be explained by requiring that type of shield generator to be outside the shield.
This is also why ships in general aren't shielded.

Nowhere Man
2005-Dec-27, 02:54 PM
Maximum lightsabre length could be a function of power available. Given that the whole works is inside a tube smaller than a paper-towel core, having a meter-long blade running off of 2 D-sized atomic batteries could be explained. Shorter blade length would be no problem, but something 100 meters long would drain the batts in a second.

Or: The fields that sustain the blade become unstable when longer than a meter.

Or: The power used by a blade is constant. Very short blades "burn" very brightly and would toast your hand. Very long blades would make the distant target very slightly warmer. One meter is a good balance between user safety and target damage.

Howzat?

Fred

Disinfo Agent
2005-Dec-27, 04:20 PM
In RotJ, the Death Star 2 is protected by a shield generator on one of Endor's moons. Well, why not have a copy of that generator on the Death Star itself, that way, just in case the one on the moon is taken out, they're not open to attack.Supposedly, the shield drew energy from the magnetic field of Endor. I think.


Aren't Jedi and Sith supposed to be able to see the future, at least the possibilities? So, wouldn't The Emperor *know* that The Rebels could win by doing that?They got glimpses of the future, but I don't think they were omniscient. Either way, the Emperor did set a trap to the Rebels down in Endor, if you'll remember.

Ricimer
2005-Dec-27, 04:50 PM
and the emperor did guard the endor base with elite troops IIRC...and if I do...what a joke that musta been.

Lightsabers: easy...if it's a plasma contained by a magnetic field...larger fields require more energy, and allow for more "leakage" by the plasma. Shorter, and you can have the same problem, along with unwieldy handling (you try to rotate a strong magnet around...it doesn't always move right).

Death star generator: Require it to be outside the sheild, or require specific regional and enviromental resources.

Hokie
2005-Dec-27, 05:17 PM
Aren't Jedi and Sith supposed to be able to see the future, at least the possibilities? So, wouldn't The Emperor *know* that The Rebels could win by doing that?

.



The Emperor was over confident thinking that there was no way for the rebels to survive the trap he set.

"Always In Motion the Future Is" -Yoda

Swift
2005-Dec-27, 06:42 PM
Death star generator: Require it to be outside the sheild, or require specific regional and enviromental resources.
Placing the generator in the incomplete Death Star was a danger to the construction workers and against Empire OSHA. :naughty:

Swift
2005-Dec-27, 06:54 PM
Star Trek: First Contact had the Borg Queen running things. Instead of the logic of the collective, we had the Queen with the hots for Data and Picard and did the whole bit to hook up with them. Women! :shrug:

Count Zero
2005-Dec-28, 01:47 AM
There! Now isn't this funner than perpetual nit-picking?

Who's got another one?

Gillianren
2005-Dec-28, 02:35 AM
Somebody responded to my King Kong review over at Rotten Tomatoes by demanding that I turn my brain off for three hours instead of nit-picking. (I spent large amounts of the movie considering predator-prey ratios. This was because it was a three-hour movie, and I can't turn off my brain for that long.)

PhantomWolf
2005-Dec-28, 03:08 AM
Well while several good points have been raised on the DS shield, one that hasn't is that the shield had to be there prior to the DS being built. Also the DS was supposed to be inactive so an operational shield on it wouldn't have drawn the Rebels into attacking. Remember the Emperor wanted them to attack, he just was blind to the possiblity of defeat by his own ego and self-confidence.

As to the Lightsaber length issue, the blade can be modified to change length in some sabers. They are far more compex because you need to have more focusing crystals to allow for the length change, but a number of Jedi have built and used them in the novels. The problem is that you need a set of focusing crystals for each length of blade you want, so about three different lengths is around a saber's limit due to the size restrictions of the hilt.

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 03:17 AM
This could easily be explained by requiring that type of shield generator to be outside the shield.
This is also why ships in general aren't shielded.

Sorry, no win here. Only the small Imperial fighters like the cheaper TIEs lack shields. TIE Defenders do have shields. All Rebel craft *except A-Wings* have shields, they're just weak ones due to their size and as as plot device. Also, in The Empire Strikes Back, Hoth has a shield that protects the entire planet. Even the Gungans in The Phantom Menace have shield generators that are inside the shield bubble they create.

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 03:26 AM
Also the DS was supposed to be inactive so an operational shield on it wouldn't have drawn the Rebels into attacking. Remember the Emperor wanted them to attack, he just was blind to the possiblity of defeat by his own ego and self-confidence.

As to the Lightsaber length issue, the blade can be modified to change length in some sabers. They are far more compex because you need to have more focusing crystals to allow for the length change, but a number of Jedi have built and used them in the novels. The problem is that you need a set of focusing crystals for each length of blade you want, so about three different lengths is around a saber's limit due to the size restrictions of the hilt.


Right, which is why it's a *back-up* shield for if the other one goes down. It's off and unknown to the rebels until it's possible need.

That makes a bit of sense, but then the issue of "why don't they just come up with something better?" comes up? Example, they can create force fields, well, why not create a long, very thin wire-like field that can work sort of like Niven's variable swords?

Count Zero
2005-Dec-28, 03:47 AM
Right, which is why it's a *back-up* shield for if the other one goes down. It's off and unknown to the rebels until it's possible need.
That works great, if you have unlimited capability, unlimited resources and (most importantly) unlimited foresight. Why didn't the Japanese take more carriers to Midway? Why didn't Saddam protect his right flank? Why didn't airport security confiscate box cutters?


That makes a bit of sense, but then the issue of "why don't they just come up with something better?" comes up?
Why didn't Goering just build F-22s?

Swift
2005-Dec-28, 03:59 AM
Why didn't Goering just build F-22s?
Because in German you wouldn't call a plane an "F-22" but something like a "Flugsporthaffenstupplegangastrippledupplebitten"
:D

Hale_Bopp
2005-Dec-28, 04:55 AM
Sorry, no win here. Only the small Imperial fighters like the cheaper TIEs lack shields. TIE Defenders do have shields. All Rebel craft *except A-Wings* have shields, they're just weak ones due to their size and as as plot device. Also, in The Empire Strikes Back, Hoth has a shield that protects the entire planet. Even the Gungans in The Phantom Menace have shield generators that are inside the shield bubble they create.

I believe the shield in TESB protrected only a small part of Hoth. That's why they landed the troops beyond the field generator and launched a ground assault.

Rob

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-28, 05:11 AM
Sorry, no win here. Only the small Imperial fighters like the cheaper TIEs lack shields. TIE Defenders do have shields. All Rebel craft *except A-Wings* have shields, they're just weak ones due to their size and as as plot device.
Is that taken from the books? If so I don't consider them canon, if it's not on the screen it's not in the universe:)

Gullible Jones
2005-Dec-28, 05:17 AM
In RotJ, wasn't there a scene on one of Jabba's sandmobile thingamajigs where Luke extends his lightsaber to six or seven feet and takes out a bunch of guards? Or am I remembering it wrong?

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-28, 05:23 AM
He's reflecting blasterfire at them from my recollection.

Maksutov
2005-Dec-28, 07:15 AM
Because in German you wouldn't call a plane an "F-22" but something like a "Flugsporthaffenstupplegangastrippledupplebitten"
:DWell, it's good to see you used the abbreviation! Danke!

Meanwhile back to ROTJ, wasn't there a witch living on Endor who was the Emperor's mother, and who made him his new clothes every now and then? You know, the ones with the blue electric spark stitching?

That would explain the need to have the shield generated on Endor and surrounding Death Star: The Sequel. The resulting interference was the perfect excuse for Sidio-, uh, Palpat-, uh, the Emperor never calling his mom...even on those Sundays when he knew through his Jedi powers that she had spent all day slaving over a hot stove fixing Ewok goulash and other Sith delicacies.

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 07:57 AM
I believe the shield in TESB protrected only a small part of Hoth. That's why they landed the troops beyond the field generator and launched a ground assault.

Rob

Well, I simply took that idea from the movie itself. I'm not going to look up the guy's name, but he said there was a shield "protecting any area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System."; so, I take that to mean the entire planet had a shield.

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 08:08 AM
That works great, if you have unlimited capability, unlimited resources and (most importantly) unlimited foresight. Why didn't the Japanese take more carriers to Midway? Why didn't Saddam protect his right flank? Why didn't airport security confiscate box cutters?


Why didn't Goering just build F-22s?

If you can build one, you can build two. Honestly, the shield generator wasn't that big compared to the Death Star 2. Just a tower and dish, some electrical thing-a-ma-bobbers underground and supposedly some other stuff.
Ummm, you mean any foresight? Surely they have a version of Murphy's Law in the galaxy far, far away? The Death Star should have such a shield even when it's done. Do aircraft carriers go without protection once they leave the dock they're built in? Um, NO! Always, always have back-ups to critical parts. Unless you're a fan of dieing that is...


Probably because technology hadn't advanced enough. The Old Republic is supposed to be just that, OLD. It's been around 25,000 years. Jedi have been around just as long, "keeping the peace". If they'd have spent just a little less time meditating and giving fortune cookie-like advice in that 25,000 years, maybe they could have come up with something better?

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 08:15 AM
Is that taken from the books? If so I don't consider them canon, if it's not on the screen it's not in the universe:)

I'm not sure what the Tie Defenders were first made up for. I saw them in one of the video games. However, like I said, all Rebel craft, saving A-Wings, have shields. Plus it's established in the movies that the larger ships have shields as well. Those balls on the top of Star Destroyers, they're not Doppler radar, they're shield projecters.

archman
2005-Dec-28, 08:18 AM
Well, I simply took that idea from the movie itself. I'm not going to look up the guy's name, but he said there was a shield "protecting any area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System."; so, I take that to mean the entire planet had a shield.

Not "any area", it was "an area". Specifically the "area" encircling the base.

If the whole planet had a shield, the Imperials could not have landed an assault force. Nor would the shield generators have been the primary target of said force if they had in fact already penetrated it, which they had not.

General Veers had to blow up the generators with his AT-AT before the orbiting Star Destroyers could start bombarding the base.

Unlike other shield generators in Star Wars that were blown up, the one for the Hoth Base was particularly volatile. It went off like a nuke!

archman
2005-Dec-28, 08:24 AM
I'm not sure what the Tie Defenders were first made up for. I saw them in one of the video games. However, like I said, all Rebel craft, saving A-Wings, have shields. Plus it's established in the movies that the larger ships have shields as well. Those balls on the top of Star Destroyers, they're not Doppler radar, they're shield projecters.

Well, in the X-Wing game, A-Wings had shields. So did those crummy Z-95's. Those things blew up real good.

Not like stuff coming off a video game (even a LucasArt one) is a good source for documentary information. Some of those Tie Fighter variants were only made to improve the gaming experience for the player. Obviously no one wants to fly a unshielded Tie Fighter... it's too easy to get blown away by random hits. Hence the Tie Advanced and Tie Defender... wasn't there a third shielded variant?

As I recall, the three books by Timothy Zahn were "approved" by Lucas to follow-up the Star Wars universe. Therefore, the video games that come after the books should not have introduced *new* Tie Fighter designs. Hence most folks' reluctance to ignore new canon material introduced from video games venues.

The game should have just stuck with those gunboats as the only Imperial "fighter" with shields. That thing was fun to fly.

So if one ignores canon derived from video games, I guess the A-Wing could be unshielded. But seeing as the crummy N-1 starfighter has a shield generator and it was at least 20 years older, I don't see why an A-Wing couldn't be shielded. Size isn't an issue. Maybe A-Wings were just cheap!

PhantomWolf
2005-Dec-28, 10:04 AM
In the movies, only Vader's prototype TIE had shields (of the starfighters on the Empire's side).

The Base was the only part of Hoth that was shielded, and they didn't blow up the Sheild generator on Hoth, they blew up the Power Generators.

A-Wings do have shields, though very light ones. I'd point out that even the X-Wing shields as depicted in the movies aren't any better than the TIE's armour anyways. ;)

Lightsabers are "ancient weapons" and are used because it takes a Jedi all his abilities to get a feel for the crystals and then position them in a manner then prevents the saber from blowing up. It is part of the Jedi's training to construct their own saber and is quite a long ritual (about a month) to go through. One things that seems unclear however, is the need for naturally occuring crystals. Most sources I have seen says they need them, but Shadows of the Empire has Luke creating artifical ones for his saber.

TIE-defenders were first seen as Prototypes in the game TIE-Fighter from LucasArts, and then further used by Zarin's forces in the expansion pack for that game, however later they also appeared in Isard's Revenge, Book 8 of the X-Wing Series. Later TIE's in the games and books did get shields installed. Mostly the TIE-Advanced modelled off Vader's Prototype and the TIE-Interceptor also gained them later on when the Empire became the Imperial Remanent.

There was no backup Shield generator made because the Emperor didn't believe he would need it. He had a Legion of his best troops on Endor protecting the Shield generator. His overconfidence in his victory didn't allow him to believe that he needed a backup. It is possible that this overconfidence clouded his vision of the future just as the darkside did Yoda's pre-Empire. Also even the Jedi cannot see all that is in the future. Remember Yoda's warning to Luke? "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." So while the Emperor may have seen himself winning, the future is not set even for a Jedi/Sith's vision.

archman
2005-Dec-28, 07:43 PM
TIE-defenders were first seen as Prototypes in the game TIE-Fighter from LucasArts, and then further used by Zarin's forces in the expansion pack for that game, however later they also appeared in Isard's Revenge, Book 8 of the X-Wing Series. Later TIE's in the games and books did get shields installed. Mostly the TIE-Advanced modelled off Vader's Prototype and the TIE-Interceptor also gained them later on when the Empire became the Imperial Remanent.

The issue with this is that none of the Star Wars books except Zahn's trilogy represent *approved* Star Wars canon. So stuff taken from them is neither here nor there. The video games are fuzzy... I don't see how Lucas integrates them.

In any event, none of the Clone War references used by Zahn made it to the big screen, so even *approved* material gets axed by Lucas when it's convenient for him. Which is really too bad, as pretty much everyone can write better than Lucas.

Nice catch on the power generators!

Disinfo Agent
2005-Dec-28, 07:49 PM
The issue with this is that none of the Star Wars books except Zahn's trilogy represent *approved* Star Wars canon.Not even the novelizations of the original trilogy?

Maksutov
2005-Dec-28, 08:16 PM
[edit]Lightsabers are "ancient weapons" and are used because it takes a Jedi all his abilities to get a feel for the crystals and then position them in a manner then prevents the saber from blowing up. It is part of the Jedi's training to construct their own saber and is quite a long ritual (about a month) to go through. One things that seems unclear however, is the need for naturally occuring crystals. Most sources I have seen says they need them, but Shadows of the Empire has Luke creating artifical ones for his saber...So Han Solo is part-Jedi? If you recall, in The Empire Strikes Back, he used Luke's lightsaber to cut open the Tauntaun which he then used as a shelter for Luke.

I always suspected as much. It would explain some of the stuff he was able to figure out and his ability to stay one step ahead of the Princess when it came to verbal jabs. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

archman
2005-Dec-28, 08:24 PM
Not even the novelizations of the original trilogy?
Ha! I don't really count those, as they're essentially the film on paper, with some extra junk thrown in.

But yes, novelizations from films do *count*. They're the next best things to the films themselves for canon purposes, since they ARE the next best things to films themselves. Oh the irony.

Maksutov
2005-Dec-28, 08:32 PM
The issue with this is that none of the Star Wars books except Zahn's trilogy represent *approved* Star Wars canon...So these two books aren't part of the official canon?

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/4848/swandtesb11kg.th.jpg (http://img417.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swandtesb11kg.jpg)

I'm disappointed.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Dec-28, 08:35 PM
Ha! I don't really count those, as they're essentially the film on paper, with some extra junk thrown in.Usually, novelisations retell the story in the film, but in a way that actually makes sense. :p

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 09:18 PM
So Han Solo is part-Jedi? If you recall, in The Empire Strikes Back, he used Luke's lightsaber to cut open the Tauntaun which he then used as a shelter for Luke.

I always suspected as much. It would explain some of the stuff he was able to figure out and his ability to stay one step ahead of the Princess when it came to verbal jabs.

I think he/she meant making one, not using one. I can't make a samurai sword, but I could use one to cut an animal open.

SkepticJ
2005-Dec-28, 09:23 PM
Lightsabers are "ancient weapons" and are used because it takes a Jedi all his abilities to get a feel for the crystals and then position them in a manner then prevents the saber from blowing up. It is part of the Jedi's training to construct their own saber and is quite a long ritual (about a month) to go through. One things that seems unclear however, is the need for naturally occuring crystals. Most sources I have seen says they need them, but Shadows of the Empire has Luke creating artifical ones for his saber.

There was no backup Shield generator made because the Emperor didn't believe he would need it. He had a Legion of his best troops on Endor protecting the Shield generator. His overconfidence in his victory didn't allow him to believe that he needed a backup. It is possible that this overconfidence clouded his vision of the future just as the darkside did Yoda's pre-Empire. Also even the Jedi cannot see all that is in the future. Remember Yoda's warning to Luke? "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." So while the Emperor may have seen himself winning, the future is not set even for a Jedi/Sith's vision.

That makes sense, but *not their continued use*. A ninja making their own sword could be rationalized as part of their training, but really, what idiot ninja wouldn't try to come up with something better than their sword for combat use if they could? It's their life on the line after all...

archman
2005-Dec-28, 09:27 PM
Usually, novelisations retell the story in the film, but in a way that actually makes sense. :p
But you're still limited to the film's plot as the primary story arc, which I usually find rather, er... crummy with Star Wars films.

GDwarf
2005-Dec-29, 12:51 AM
It is mentioned in several sources (Games, novels) that all the ships but the Tie Fighters have shields, Ties don't as it would cost too much. Isn't it true that all novels are approved cannon?

As for the shield on Endor, Presumably it needed a power source that couldn't be transported to the Death Star, or, the particular type of shield needed to encircle a moon-sized object can't be powered from the inside. (The Hologram of the shield shows it being emitted in almost a cone that circles around the Death Star, something on the Death Star itself couldn't do that.)

As for lightsabers, the length one is easy, the amount of energy needed would be massive to attack over that range, when a blaster works even better. (If your attacking something 100m away there's no reason to use a close-combat weapon.). As for making it shorter, Lightsabers are built with several main parts. The Power Source and Focusing Crystals being the main ones, to make a lightsabre shorter you'd need a different focusing crystal, and your blade would be perminatly that short. I'd assume that the reason that the technique hasn't been upgraded is that lightsabres are so powerful that only certain materials (the crystals) can withstand their energy, thus only they can be used to focus it. Now, that isn't to say that you couldn't, if you knew what you were doing, slot in different focusing crystals, it would just be very difficult.

Hugh Jass
2005-Dec-29, 01:44 AM
It is part of the Jedi's training to construct their own saber and is quite a long ritual (about a month) to go through. One things that seems unclear however, is the need for naturally occurring crystals. Most sources I have seen says they need them, but Shadows of the Empire has Luke creating artificial ones for his saber.

I dont remember if it was shadow hunter or sabatour the Darth Maul books, but it described in there something about the jedi way of creating a lightsaber is to find natural occurring ones, quests to certain planets or some such. The sith way was to lab create them using the force to shape them while they precipitated over several days.

BTW the scar on Anakinís face came out of the clonewars comic books and Lucas begrudgingly kept it.

Hugh Jass
2005-Dec-29, 01:53 AM
I was under the impression a single sheild could not be created that encompassed the object it was generated from. The sheilds on all the ships are overlapping front/rear/side/side what not.

Also what was wrong with

Well while several good points have been raised on the DS shield, one that hasn't is that the shield had to be there prior to the DS being built. Also the DS was supposed to be inactive so an operational shield on it wouldn't have drawn the Rebels into attacking. Remember the Emperor wanted them to attack, he just was blind to the possiblity of defeat by his own ego and self-confidence.

This works for me.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-29, 03:01 AM
It takes a jedi to make a lightsaber, once it's made non jedi's can use it until it gets out of tuning.

archman
2005-Dec-29, 05:27 AM
Isn't it true that all novels are approved cannon?

Oh my, no. For Star Wars in particular, there's this convoluted piece that explores what is/is not canon. Gives me a headache reading it.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html

PhantomWolf
2005-Dec-29, 08:53 AM
I think he/she meant making one, not using one. I can't make a samurai sword, but I could use one to cut an animal open.

I did. A Non Jedi using one won't blow it up, the force is required to build one.


That makes sense, but *not their continued use*. A ninja making their own sword could be rationalized as part of their training, but really, what idiot ninja wouldn't try to come up with something better than their sword for combat use if they could? It's their life on the line after all...

Tradition, and that it's an excellent weapon. Everyone knows that a person carrying a Lightsaber is a Jedi, or if not that they were tough enough to kill one and show that openly. Either way, not someone to mess with. As to the weapon itself, it can cut through vitually anything, repel blaster fire and is fast, compact and effective to use. Sure it's not ranged, but when you can return a blaster bolt back to its source, does that really matter? I know that in the Jedi games, I tend to use a Lightsaber almost exclusively, in fact with Jedi Academy I hated one level because they take your lightsaber off of you and you have to use conventional weapons.

X-COM
2005-Dec-29, 05:16 PM
Han Solo use Luke Skywalkers lightsaber, he didn't construct it, he just hit the "on" switch. By the way, this should be the lightsaber Anakin dropped after losing the duel with Obi Wan in episode III. Luke then "inherit" it in episode IV when Ben gives it to him. An interesting thing, Han looses this lightsaber (along with his right hand) in his duel with Dart Vader later in episode V. Vader are pleased at Lukes accomplishment of constructing new lightsaber episode VI, I liked that. A fathers approval of his sons accomplishment.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-29, 05:35 PM
An interesting thing, Han looses this lightsaber (along with his right hand) in his duel with Dart Vader later in episode V.
You mean Luke looses...

SeanF
2005-Dec-29, 05:40 PM
You mean Luke looses...
Actually, he means Luke loses...

PhantomWolf
2005-Dec-30, 02:58 AM
Vader are pleased at Lukes accomplishment of constructing new lightsaber episode VI, I liked that. A fathers approval of his sons accomplishment.
Not only that, but in constructing his new saber, Luke has proven that he has the skills of a Jedi, ready to take on the mantle of Jedi Knight. He has one last test to pass, The temptation and rejection of the Dark Side, nd for this he has to face Vader and the Emperor. He becomes a true Jedi Knight the moment he throws his saber down instead of striking down Vader. The fact he did it with only the instructions left in Ben's Hut and without a Master......

darkhunter
2005-Dec-30, 05:32 AM
I've never understood the hang-up with the "light side" and "dark-side" of the force. The force is a tool, just like a hammer. it can be used for good (building a house) or bad (knocking holes in the wall).

From the movies and novelizations thereof, it appears only Mace Windu and Anikin seem to understand this, and possibly Yoda.

Mace's fighting style (IAW the novelization of Episode III) is "Almost" of the dark side.

Anikin see's the force as a tool to save lives by using ALL of it's capacity and not being limited to the Jedi "light side".

Yoda I include because he appears (from the visual in the movie) to stop the force lighting barehanded (everyone else has to use a lightsaber)--this implies he has knowledge enough of the "dark side" to control it.

IMO, the Jedi's weakened themselves by being so hung up with the light and dark that they refused to face the dark side they held within themselves--that is why they sought out such young children to train in order to shelter them from pain, fear, and anger until they were fully indoctronated in their Jedi ways, and why they feared the dark side so much.

PhantomWolf
2005-Dec-30, 07:47 AM
That there is Sith thinking young man. The force is more than a tool, it is part of the life force. The Jedi allows himself to become one with the force, letting it move through him by being calm and at peace. When the two become one, his powers will flow from the Force, through him, and allow him to do things ordinary people can't. The Sith dominates the force by fear and anger, demanding that the force does his will, making it submit to his domination. In doing so he opens a powerful drug that makes him crave more power, more control to the point of dominating and controlling the very inhabitants of the galaxy itself. This is the difference between the Lightside and the Dark. Freedom and Domination.

Maksutov
2005-Dec-30, 02:37 PM
That there is Sith thinking young man. The force is more than a tool, it is part of the life force. The Jedi allows himself to become one with the force, letting it move through him by being calm and at peace. When the two become one, his powers will flow from the Force, through him, and allow him to do things ordinary people can't. The Sith dominates the force by fear and anger, demanding that the force does his will, making it submit to his domination. In doing so he opens a powerful drug that makes him crave more power, more control to the point of dominating and controlling the very inhabitants of the galaxy itself. This is the difference between the Lightside and the Dark. Freedom and Domination.That's weird. I've made my own Lifesavers and have never felt any urges regarding freedom or dominance. Just a slight craving to have another home-brewed Lifesaver. Perhaps the use of cane sugar instead of corn syrup might be a factor.

Corn syrup is for those weak in the Force. http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1550/starwarssmiley0597cf.gif

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-30, 02:50 PM
That's weird. I've made my own Lifesavers and have never felt any urges regarding freedom or dominance. Just a slight craving to have another home-brewed Lifesaver. Perhaps the use of cane sugar instead of corn syrup might be a factor.

Corn syrup is for those weak in the Force. http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1550/starwarssmiley0597cf.gif
Recipe please.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Dec-30, 07:01 PM
I've never understood the hang-up with the "light side" and "dark-side" of the force. The force is a tool, just like a hammer. it can be used for good (building a house) or bad (knocking holes in the wall).Not in the SW universe. In there, good and evil really are Good and Evil in an absolute sense.

HenrikOlsen
2005-Dec-31, 12:58 PM
What's why it's so boring.
All moral questions are already answered from the beginning.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Dec-31, 01:11 PM
I thought it made it exciting, myself. In a world where the border between Good and Evil is clearly drawn out, and being an exponent of either gives you magical powers, you don't need to worry about moral conundrums. :think:

You can just shoot the damn #$%&$$ -- rock'n'roll! ;)

darkhunter
2005-Dec-31, 06:36 PM
Not in the SW universe. In there, good and evil really are Good and Evil in an absolute sense.

"Only the Sith see things in black and white" Obi-Wan to Anikin, EP III (IIRC) :)

I have had this discussion before with no satisfactory resolution with other Star Wars fans (not that I'm not a Star Wars fan myself).

My main point is that only by being fully aware of the Dark side in each of us may we truly have the strength to do good by our own free will. The Sith rely on the Jedi's refusal to accept (and defeat) their own Dark side tendencies in order to recruit their new apprentices--if you do not know and defeat the Dark side in your own hearth, how can you defeat a Dark side opponent?

Just look at Anikin/Darth Vader--from the start he only wanted to do good and bring peace to the galaxy. Handicapped by NOT being able to recognize the Dark side in himself (his arrogance and greed for power, through he meant well by seeking the power to do good with the best of intentions) he fell easily to Darth Sidious's manipulations.

By constrast, Mace Windu did acknolegde and defeat and control his own Dark side in his style of fighting (IAW the Novelization of EP III) and would never have turned to the Dark side himself.

PhantomWolf
2006-Jan-01, 06:58 AM
My main point is that only by being fully aware of the Dark side in each of us may we truly have the strength to do good by our own free will. The Sith rely on the Jedi's refusal to accept (and defeat) their own Dark side tendencies in order to recruit their new apprentices--if you do not know and defeat the Dark side in your own hearth, how can you defeat a Dark side opponent?
Well while I dn't know what the Jedi Trial consisted off, Luke and his later students had to so this as part of their training and advancement. To become Knight, Luke had to face Vader and the Emperor, to face the darkness of his past and the anger in him. In vercoming it he become a Jedi Knight. Again when he became a Jedi Master it was through passing through the Darkside and then defeating it. His students all had to face their darkside to and defeat it to journey on. In fact in one book "The New Rebellion" Luke ponders to whether this is the right way because one of his students couldn't defeat his darkness and fell to it.

Hugh Jass
2006-Jan-01, 10:57 AM
Well while I dn't know what the Jedi Trial consisted off, Luke and his later students had to so this as part of their training and advancement. To become Knight, Luke had to face Vader and the Emperor, to face the darkness of his past and the anger in him. In vercoming it he become a Jedi Knight. Again when he became a Jedi Master it was through passing through the Darkside and then defeating it. His students all had to face their darkside to and defeat it to journey on. In fact in one book "The New Rebellion" Luke ponders to whether this is the right way because one of his students couldn't defeat his darkness and fell to it.

This is inferred in EPIII and explained just a bit more in the novelization of it, in the end when Yoda and Obi-wan are talking about the, wha just happened? The mention the Sith evolved and adapted, the Jedi became complacent and rigid in their ways. Yoda basically said things were going to need to change going forward if the Jedi were to reach their former glory.

Faultline
2006-Jan-01, 04:46 PM
Could it be that in the rush to get the main weapon on the DS2 active in time for the battle, they put off installing the DS2's main shield generator, therefore leaving it vulnerable?

Could it be that if the Emporer wanted to lure Luke Skywalker to Endor, so he made the DS2 vulnerable to that type of sabotage?

And so on, and so forth.

Ricimer
2006-Jan-01, 05:37 PM
well, with the DS2's sheild generator. It was under construction, perhaps they didn't have sufficient infrastructure and power generation capabilites to support such a shield, thus the presence of an off site generator.

BTW, anybody know if they were going to put grates over thier various vents and mainentance passages this time? Cause that was a lame way to go for the first one.

novaderrik
2006-Jan-02, 01:46 AM
yeah, they put grates over all the small openings that a small torpedo-like projectile could go thru, but they left huge gaps that allowed large ships like the millenium Falcon to fly thru at full speed straight to the power core or whatever they called it..

PhantomWolf
2006-Jan-02, 02:26 AM
Well the access ports that the Rebels used were only open because the DS2 was still being constructed. With an inpenaterable sheild about it, there was no need to close off the access ways that the construction crews were using. Without the shields however, obviously these were able to be used by the Rebels to get inside the structure for damage purposes. Had the DS2 been completed it wouldn't have been vulnerable to these sort of attacks because the maintanece corridors would have been closed off, and the exhaust shaft weakness of the first DS2 had also been fixed in the second.

HenrikOlsen
2006-Jan-02, 12:12 PM
You're all forgetting that the only purpose of DS2 was to get Luke near the Emperor so he could get converted.

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jan-02, 12:54 PM
I thought it was to crush the Rebellion once and for all...

darkhunter
2006-Jan-02, 03:30 PM
From a certain point of veiw, it achieved the desired effect. After the destruction of the Death Star II, the rebelion was no more--it had becone he government. :)

Swift
2006-Jan-02, 11:52 PM
Not to sidetrack the Star Wars discussion, but another that never made sense to me is from the first Matrix movie. The bit about using humans as a "power source". I remember when I first saw the movie I did a "huh?". Unless somehow humans don't obey the laws of thermodynamics, if you have to feed them to stay alive, you can't get more power out then you put in. The machines would be better off burning the sugar in an furnace than feeding it to people and using the heat.

Moose
2006-Jan-03, 12:17 AM
Agreed, Swift. But I can think of two ways to resolve that problem. Either/or may apply.

1) Watching the machines prune the "trees", the Zionites may well have lept to an incorrect conclusion. It's not that mature humans are being pruned for energy. It's that dead humans are being removed from the matrix. The "bulb" will be replanted with a human embryo at some point, while the old husk gets mulched up for nutrients. Up to this point, the Zionites got it right. What they got wrong was the point of all this.

What the machines didn't necessarily have was parallel processing capability. Humans have never come close to inventing a parallel processing machine as elegant and powerful as a biological brain. I suspect that the plantation was a "server" farm. A biological beowulf cluster.

Our error is that we're assuming the Zionites knew what they were talking about.

2) The other possibility is one that was hinted at by neo being able to see the matrix while in Zion, and reinforced by Smith being able to possess a Zionite.

Smith himself says it: the original matrix was too idyllic. People couldn't accept a world without suffering. So, they made a less idyllic matrix. One with plenty of suffering and ambition.

And yet, some disbelieved that matrix as well. And lo, they jack out into Zion, a very harsh, uncomfortable world where they are under constant threat of annihilation from machines who just want to take them down. A world in which "the One" is able to see matrix code. A world in which a viral Agent program is able to enter and interact.

If Zion is just another level of matrix, then the purpose of the people farm is entirely irrelevant, as it is simply another construct designed to make people believe they are not in the Matrix they are indeed trapped in.

If this hypothesis is true, then while we may extrapolate the existance of either the "outside" or yet another layer, until someone successfully disbelieves Zion and can contrive to gather data of the "outside universe", then there is no way to know if humans really are actually captives within the matrix, let alone the nature of that "captivity" and/or "enslavement".

Swift
2006-Jan-03, 12:39 AM
Moose,
I had the same thought about your idea #1. I really like that explanation. The other one I had is that the machines are compelled at a fundamental level to put humans in the Matrix. IIRC, the Matrix was created by humans, probably as some sort of virtual reality. Maybe the machines have some sort of Rule # 0 that the best place for people is in the Matrix (we're doing it for their own good). Sort of like that Star Trek:TOS epsiode where the giant computer "Andrew" ran the planet.

Moose
2006-Jan-03, 12:48 AM
(Landru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_the_Archons).)

Hmm. That's an interesting hypothesis. But if that were some machine prime directive, would the machines invasion of Zion not instead be a concerted attempt to capture as many undamaged humans as possible (for their own good), rather than an attempt to destroy an insurrection by stomping it flat?

Faultline
2006-Jan-03, 01:29 AM
In the Matrix, I take a cheap way to describe why the computer uses humans as a power source.

It's inefficient (it's mentioned that the machines use fusion power), yes, but hey, its a computer and somewhere in its brain it thinks it has to do it. It's a deranged AI computer. I can show you examples of people who believe stranger things.

It's a rationalization.

PhantomWolf
2006-Jan-03, 06:53 AM
You're all forgetting that the only purpose of DS2 was to get Luke near the Emperor so he could get converted.
I disagree. We know that the First DS took number of years to build, but there is only 6 months between ESB and RotJ. There is no way that the 2nd DS could have been constructed in that time. While it's never said, I'd suspect that the Second DS was already well under way at the time of the destruction of the first in the Battle of Yavin, 3 1/2 years prior to RotJ and before Luke had even come to the Emperor's notice, or the decision had been make to try and make him an ally.


I thought it was to crush the Rebellion once and for all...
I don't think so, while it was certainly a use, and the reason the Emperor allowed them to know abut the second DS, it's primary task was the same as the first, to keep the population of the Galaxy under control through fear of it being used on their worlds.


From a certain point of veiw, it achieved the desired effect. After the destruction of the Death Star II, the rebelion was no more--it had becone he government.
In a way, but it wasn't really. The Empire survived both Death of the Emperor and the 2nd DS so the Rebellion continued a long time. They did become the New Republic though, and had many systems flock to their banner, but until taking Coruscant several years later they weren't a legitimate government.

Gullible Jones
2006-Jan-04, 01:02 AM
[Edit: posted in wrong thread, therefore removed. Sorry folks.]

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jan-04, 12:58 PM
Deleted. Wrong thread.

Gullible Jones
2006-Jan-07, 12:26 AM
Uhhh... D'oh! Wrong thread! :o

Faultline
2006-Jan-07, 01:29 AM
Nothing ever takes place before the Emperor takes notice.