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ljbrs
2003-Feb-17, 01:54 AM
In the Friday, 14 February 2003, issue of SCIENCE, an article, *Institute Faulted on Attitudes Toward Women* (by Andrew Lawler) almost made me vomit. I do not understand how such male-chauvinistic behavior has not changed by this time in taxpayer-supported organizations such as Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI). Perhaps STScI ought to get its directors from gender-friendlier sources.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif



_________________
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljbrs on 2003-02-16 20:57 ]</font>

g99
2003-Feb-17, 02:54 AM
I have not read the article. But could it be biased? What were the sources the author used for the article? Who did the author talk to get the information and quotes? I am just saying that while the author is probobly right, the information could be biased.

Say the Author talked to 10 women and three men. That would be a biased article. Say it was 10 men and three women but all of the women were hard liners in the feminism movement. So they of course will be biased against the men.

Finally no matter what the story is about. It is much more interesting and will sell more money if one woman calims to be abused in the workplace. Than the fact that the rest of the hundreds of women think the workplace is the best in the world.

Than again i don't know what the article is about. I just have learned not to take a single authors opinion as the whole truth. And that the situation could be blown out of proportion by the author and the Editor of the paper.

Disclaimer: I think it is absolutely horrble for any person, male or female to abuse sexually or mentally someone else. Nomatter what sex, "race", or age.

[spelling]
_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-16 21:55 ]</font>

JS Princeton
2003-Feb-17, 04:14 AM
I just read the article through the subscription service here at the university. There has been a historic bias in all the sciences against women since Bacon came up with the idea of the modern scientific endeavor. Astronomy has been fortunate to have some towering women pioneers (Annie Jump Cannon, Vera Rubin, Jocelyn Bell Burnell, among others), but for the most part has remained a staunchly male profession. There are few women and minorities in research positions in general, so it must be a daunting thing to be faced with an environment as competitive as STScI. The thing about STScI is that the institute is meant to be a brain trust as a connection to Hubble, but the scientists who work there get no more consideration for Hubble time than anyone else. This must put a lot of pressure on the researchers (although they are all involved in other projects too). In any case, the study was commissioned by the oversight panel to address the perceived issue before it became out-of-hand. This speaks well, I think. There are no lawsuits or even really any complaints filed against the insitute, just a perception problem at this time. The specific grievances are of concern, but the article seemed more to me to indicate the climate was hostile in general and didn't single out women in particular.

Anyway, if anyone can figure out how to get a free copy of the article, please let us know. I would copy the thing here, but I'm afraid that might be copyright infringement since it is a pay-per-view journal.

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Feb-17, 04:22 AM
I'll read the article as soon as I can. Interestingly, there is a document called The Baltimore Charter (http://www.aas.org/~cswa/bc.html) which is a statement about how to address this issue; it was made at a meeting at STScI. Meg Urry, who is now at Yale but was for many years at STScI, is a founder of the women in astronomy movement (http://www.aas.org/~cswa/), as is Lisa Frattare (http://www-int.stsci.edu/~frattare/), also at STScI.

g99
2003-Feb-17, 04:28 AM
Thanks JS! Do you happen to know (did the article say) the reaserch they did for the study? How many people did they poll? What percentages were women/men? Just curious. I took a stat. class a few years ago and it has gotten me interested in polls and staistics. One of the few college classes i use every day in the normal real world. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

g99
2003-Feb-17, 04:37 AM
Truthfully i don't understand why any gender would be better than the other in Astornomy. I would think that astronomy, as with all reaserch intensive studies are essencially gender neutral in their necesary abilities.

I would think that a mixed group of both sexes would be better than a single sex group. Generalizing: Women have a better ability to perform multiple tasks at once. Just ask any girl(woman) you know to listen to two conversations at once and she can almost certainly tell you exactly what happened in each. (My girlfriend does this all the time. I will be talking to her and at the same time she is listening in on the conversation next to us. She will then tell me all the jucy gossip about that couple. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)

Men on the other hand are very good at focusing on one subject at a time and devoting all their time and energy onto it. It is hard for men to do two things at the same time. (and no watching t.v. and eating does not count. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif). Just try to read a book and talk to your wife/girlfrined at the same time, hard to do.

Thus a union of men and women in the workplace would be good. They could both keep eachother in check and in line. The focus of men and the wide ranging multitasking of woimen. Complimentary to a high degree.

Now that was all generalizing and there will always be crossovers. But you get the idea.


I just don't understand some guys fear of women working. It really makes no sense to me.

_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-16 23:37 ]</font>

JS Princeton
2003-Feb-17, 06:15 AM
On 2003-02-16 23:28, g99 wrote:
Thanks JS! Do you happen to know (did the article say) the reaserch they did for the study? How many people did they poll? What percentages were women/men? Just curious. I took a stat. class a few years ago and it has gotten me interested in polls and staistics. One of the few college classes i use every day in the normal real world. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif



Well, the statistics were for STScI as a whole and the anecdotes were mostly in the form of mild complaints by women who had left. The whole purpose of the study was to look at reasons why women were leaving STScI and what the general atmosphere was. I do not think the intent of the study was to provide anything more than a perspective on a perceived problem, but I could be wrong.

ljbrs
2003-Feb-18, 02:48 AM
JS Princeton: I always enjoy reading your posts. I know enough about astronomy and physics to know who really knows.

Although I studied physics and mathematics (calculus), I received my degrees in Humanities (interrelationship of the arts) where male chauvinism was not rampant. Nowadays, I would expect things to be different, and it is very sad for me to see that women are still having a hard time. I, myself, did not want to suffer from the negative behavior that the female pioneers in physics and astronomy had endured.

For those who wonder about the article concerning the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) female researchers, SCIENCE, published weekly by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), is always objective and fair. I have been reading it throughout my life, and I trust the judgment of its editors and writers. I was shocked to find that there was such abominable treatment of intelligent women yet going on today. It is one thing to have male chauvinism in an occasional male. When it occurs throughout an organization, changes should be made.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

ljbrs
2003-Feb-18, 02:55 AM
Bad Astronomer:

Thank you for the links to related sites.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

ljbrs
2003-Feb-18, 03:02 AM
g99:

I could not supply links to SCIENCE, because it requires a screen name and a password for readers of most articles. SCIENCE has a similar stature to NATURE, published in England. Most science libraries and some public libraries carry subscriptions to SCIENCE.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

g99
2003-Feb-18, 03:31 AM
On 2003-02-17 21:48, ljbrs wrote:

Although I studied physics and mathematics (calculus), I received my degrees in Humanities (interrelationship of the arts) where male chauvinism was not rampant. Nowadays, I would expect things to be different, and it is very sad for me to see that women are still having a hard time. I, myself, did not want to suffer from the negative behavior that the female pioneers in physics and astronomy had endured.

For those who wonder about the article concerning the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) female researchers, SCIENCE, published weekly by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), is always objective and fair. I have been reading it throughout my life, and I trust the judgment of its editors and writers. I was shocked to find that there was such abominable treatment of intelligent women yet going on today. It is one thing to have male chauvinism in an occasional male. When it occurs throughout an organization, changes should be made.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif



I am sorry that some idiot males have made you decide not to do something with your life. I feel horrible for my gender. I apologize for all the guys that were to "big" to do anything about it.

I really do not understand why some men fear the advancement of women so much. It makes no sense to me. It could be my upbringing in the fact that my mom always instilled in me to respect women, or it could be my Anthropological background. In Anthropology i have learebned that while few in number there have been many matriarichal societies in the world that were just as prosperous and beneficial as male oriented cultures. For some reason history went the way of the male.

I strongly disagree with anyone, (and i will say it to their face if they bring it up), And i will say that no sex is superior to the other. Both have their unique qualities that make the human race viable biologiaclly and culturally. Everyone knows what they are. I am not a feminist nor a chovenist. I am just rational.

While i do have my faults, my learnings in Anthro. and biology have taught me that there are no differences at all in anyone.

Again i apologize to all of the women on this board and to those of you who pass by to read it for a fleeting chance. Some people in my gender just need to get a life and realize the world has changed and will not go back.

----------------------------
I will try to pick up the mag. at Barnes and noble. My library has a copy. I know that. But i want a copy of my own.

Now to relate this to Astronomy and science: Why do you think there is a bias towards men in the fields of Astronomy and astrophysics?


Dan
[clarity]
_________________
"Hi!!" - Some person, somewere, at some time.
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: g99 on 2003-02-18 16:51 ]</font>

Byrd
2003-Feb-18, 04:14 PM
Many of we older feminists are not that bitter. We've entered the fields, and even though you sometimes have to really get snorky and continually whack folks (women, too, believe it or not) over the head with your accomplishments, we've made progress.

I'm not an astronomer, but I am in the computer profession and remember a time when I would go to trade shows and be one of only three women there who were NOT standing around in skimpy outfits, trying to sell someone something.

I remember other programmers in my department talking about leaving or retiring if a woman was made manager -- and how one of our most competant was demoted from assistant department head to tech division head.

It's happened to minorities, it's happened to women. It would be shameful if 30 years of effort had produced nothing. But thankfully there are some wonderful men out there who DO understand that we can think and reason and that we are valuable as researchers and creators and directors.

So yeah, fie on the stuff that's still out there and hurrah for all the men and women who changed and are changing that horrible "barefoot and pregnant" system!

nebularain
2003-Feb-18, 04:38 PM
OK, Byrd gets added to the list of females on this Board.

ljbrs
2003-Feb-19, 02:42 AM
Actually, what really bothered me was this portion of the SCIENCE article:


Although there was no apparent difference in salary or lab space between the sexes, the report cites "a fundamental ignorance of accomplishments of women and the presence of gender bias" among senior managers. For example, Dupree and others cite an incident--not spelled out in the report--in which a male manager put his hand in the face of a female colleague to stop her from talking during a meeting. No disciplinary action was taken. In another case, a man introducing a woman for a talk made derogatory comments about her abilities. Such "lack of sensitivity towards the climate and behavior ... is tolerated by senior management," states the report. (Emphasis mine.)

It is depressing to see that the Space Telescope Science Institute would permit such behavior (as quoted above) in their managers. It is absolutely disgusting, as far as I am concerned.

I, myself, an older woman, never permitted this kind of behavior from men if they were to remain friends of mine. I am a widow who had a great marriage. I was picky. I grew up in a family which was gender neutral (mother and father both being brilliant equals). I did not go into the physical sciences because my physicist father warned me about the male chauvinism I would encounter. I would think that by this time (21st Century), such baloney would be long gone. There are a few male chauvinists in my wonderful astronomy group. I keep my distance from them, and everything works out well there.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

ljbrs
2003-Feb-19, 02:59 AM
Actually, I am delighted that there are some really first-class nice guys {extremely intelligent, too} here on Bad Astronomy. I have turned into being more of a reader here because there are so many interesting posts and my busy schedule does not give me the time to read and write. This thread is an exception. I simply was extremely bothered to see such immature male behavior in what should have been a first-class organization such as STScI.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

g99
2003-Feb-19, 03:05 AM
On 2003-02-18 21:59, ljbrs wrote:
Actually, I am delighted that there are some really first-class nice guys {extremely intelligent, too} here on Bad Astronomy.
ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif


[emphasis mine]
Hmm..You don't know me then. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

JS Princeton
2003-Feb-19, 03:22 AM
I would agree, ljbrs, that the documented misdeeds are quite bad indeed. However, what is encouraging to me is that the issue is being addressed before a lawsuit or a scandal erupted. If only there were no such thing as sexism...

Russ
2003-Feb-19, 04:33 AM
ljbrs:

I would like to second the questions posed by g99 in her/his first post. Skepticism is important in this type of discussion.

I work in engineering, a male dominated field to say the least. Over the years the percentage of females has grown significantly. Like any other group, there have been the good'uns and the bad'uns, and every variant in between. The ones above what I'd call 65% competent did not seem to have problems regarding acceptance, promotion or esteem.

There were more than enough neanderthal's amongst my male peers but they, for the most part, were forced into correct behavior if not thinking.

On the other side of the fence, I've met my share of incompetent female engineers who were more than willing to use abuse at the hands of males as an excuse for sub standard performance. So I know that your atticle could well be tainted by such women. I have not read the article so I can't judge for myself, but I know it is entirely possible.

One of my favorite female engineers was a gal I'll call Bet. She was short, very pretty, and looked like the stereotype of a high school cheer leader. This was just the packaging for 6 feet 10 inches, 300 pounds of unbridled capability and determination. She didn't take krap from anybody. I was personally witness to her busting some arragant engineering egos down to size.

Another gal, she went by "Gregg" (a contraction of her family name) just ignored the fact that there are two sexes. She got along just fine. At a time when there were only mens rooms in power plants, she just walked right in, did her stuff and left, often with several old roughnecks gaping in horror. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif Makes me laugh to remember.

I guess my point is, the ones who could do the job and didn't tend to let idiots stand in their way, didn't complain. The ones who were not up to the task, tended to blame others for their shortcomings.

g99
2003-Feb-19, 04:55 AM
On 2003-02-18 23:33, Russ wrote:
ljbrs:

I would like to second the questions posed by g99 in her/his first post. Skepticism is important in this type of discussion.



I'm A Guy.
6'5" blond, Blue eyes.
Muscular with a chiseled cut and 10 million in the bank. (did i mention is a prone to exageration?) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

g99
2003-Feb-19, 05:29 AM
I have to agree with you Russ. There are bad people on both sides who will use their attributes to get them further ahead. The same with the guy with lots of money in the bank paying off the recruiter, or the beautiful woman using her looks to get a job. There are bad people in both sexes.

I just still wonder the sources from the study. For example, During the Florida election debauchal (just a example, nuthing more) many, many different studies came about each saying something totaly different.

The same thing could be going on here. While the study could be good in nature and means well, it could of been biased from the start.

Say it was a telephone survey. It is biased in the fact that only respondents that feel strongly or have lots of time on their hands will asnwer. If one person declines from your group it is not a random study anymore and the results can and should be scrutinied.
If it was having the women come to the reaserchers it is even worse in the fact that only those who feel strongly will come up to them and tell the reaserchers what happened and it is no way random. Just Basic statistics.

JS Princeton said that most of the responents were compaints from women who had left the company. Speculation: Well maybe they were bitter and exagerated some. They might of been abused or there was sexism, but maybe they went over the top and said more than what happened. Than again they could of had a right to say that and they did not tell the whole truth.

But it all boils down to the same point. Women still have a long way to go before reaching equality in some entrenched positions. Many have opened up to them, but there are still hard faught battlegrounds out there. I wish you gals well and good luck. I will do my small part by not being one of those men and teaching my future kids to do the same.

ljbrs
2003-Feb-20, 01:53 AM
g99 and Russ (or Russ and g99):

Oh, I know what you mean. However, the director who put his hand over a female subordinate's mouth was beyond the pale. I do not want women to go back to the chattel state that they once endured in silence.

I think that women who go into male-dominated fields should be ready for anything. One can always ignore the imbeciles.

Oh, well, so long as I do not have to put up with such behavior, it is fine with me.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Russ
2003-Feb-20, 08:00 PM
So ljbrs, you've got a kinda cute caboose. Ya busy Friday night?





(yes, this intended to be a joke based on the caracature of an insensitive cad)

liglats
2003-Feb-20, 11:53 PM
I have the great pleasure of being a union representative in my workplace. And despite years of employment legislation we still have to fight for the rights of our female colleagues on a day to day basis. For example, many companies are reluctant to assist in equal pay audits, because they don't want to admit that they have a problem, despite the pay gap apparently broadening.

A couple of months ago I had great pleasure in assisting in a case where a manager (A female manager no less) had instigated departmental policies which were providing more favourable conditions for men. We got a good result for the employee that raised the grievance, but the fact is that we still had to fight for the result. So if the women are discriminating against women, then what hope have we got!

All animals are equal. Though it appears that some animals are still treated more equally than others.

g99
2003-Feb-21, 12:13 AM
On 2003-02-20 18:53, liglats wrote:

All animals are equal. Though it appears that some animals are still treated more equally than others.



I like that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


How often does it happen that companies make regulations that favor men? I am not talking about under the table stuff, i mean by the books, right in front of you like that woman did in your story.

liglats
2003-Feb-21, 12:23 AM
In the case in question, the department was under a bit of a backlog, so they decided that any training that was to be carried out could only be done in overtime. A large number of the staff in the area were women doing part time or fixed hours so they could pick up kids from school, and were unable to do overtime. As a result of this, the men were more able to increase their skills and get paid for it than the women. Had the company taken a short term hit and trained all staff then they would have been able to get more work done by having a generally higher skilled workforce. I believe that the training was only a few hours long and would have been carried out in-house

This is one of the less obvious forms of discrimination, though it is a significant factor in broadening pay gaps.

Edited to mention that the animals quote is a nod in the direction of George Orwell.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: liglats on 2003-02-20 19:26 ]</font>

ljbrs
2003-Feb-21, 01:43 AM
I agree that women are often their worst enemies. In the case of Space Telescope Science Institute, the women who left were sending a message.

I, myself, never permitted ill behavior from males or females for longer than it took to get away. I always consider the source.

Then again, lousy people live with lousy people 24 hours a day, because they cannot get away from themselves...

I liked the take off on the George Orwell quotation from *Animal Farm*.

By the way, you all are very, very nice.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
_________________
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljbrs on 2003-02-20 20:49 ]</font>

g99
2003-Feb-21, 02:23 AM
You guys don't have to answer this. It has been hammered into me that a woman will never give her age unless pigs fly and brimstone comes down from the heavens /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif, but...

I was just wonder how old are you guys (gals would be more apropriate)? You can give me averages if you wan't. Are you old enougth to of been apart of the original womans lib movement, or more like my generation (20 somethings) or something inbetween? Just trying to get persopective on your feelings.

It seems to me like all of you ( Neb., ljbrs, and liglats) have been doing this for a while and are experts at it. You know exactly what to say and to do to use the law and organizations to get what you want done and the right things achieved.

Have you noticed if there is more of a problem in todays generation than in past, or are we more accepting of these types of things. But this all of course is based on if you were around to experience it in previous generations.

I will be watching for the fireballs and assasins coming for me... Just be nice.

nebularain
2003-Feb-21, 02:36 AM
LOL!
I'm not ashamed of my age. I am 32. (Although everyone tells me I look anywhere from 20-26, but I'm not complaining!)

I believe in equal treatment of and opportunities for women, but I am not a women's libber, and I highly value family above career (well, if I actually had my own family) - and unfortunately, this is interfered by a woman's actual financial ability to staying home.

Of course, I do miss the "old fashion" values of men tipping their hats to women and opening the door for her kind of stuff - and I appreciate those men who still actually do these things.

Feminists don't like me too much. . . .

g99
2003-Feb-21, 03:16 AM
I don't have a hat to tip, but i do open doors.
The thing i hate the most is when people go through with the air that they have deserved it all of their lives. I just wish i could go back in time and close it on them. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Not only do i open them for women, i open them for men too. I am just nice all around. Just don't tell people that. I find it hard enougth to say no to people who ask for money. And i have found it impossible to say no to a woman. I am just a sucker for a pretty girl. So i guess that means all of you. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Not i am going way off topic.

So how can we solve the problem of women in high science fields like Engineering and physics without just firing all of the current staff and starting anew? While i would love to get rid of some of the old timers, it is not fair to them. SO how to change it?

David Hall
2003-Feb-21, 11:09 AM
I never have any problem at all guessing a woman's age. It's very easy.

She's 20, always. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Byrd
2003-Feb-21, 06:20 PM
Oh David! Yes, you guessed my age correctly, you psychic, you!

Byrd
2003-Feb-21, 06:24 PM
Tipping hats and opening doors is simply common courtesy. I open doors for guys, women, kids... whoever's behind me, and particularly if they need assistance. And I always thank whoever opens doors for me.

(g) This is such a courteous BBS (she says, doffing her chapeau to all.)

liglats
2003-Feb-21, 11:05 PM
I'm 27, an ex Cub-Scout that gives up my seat on the bus for the person laden with pushchairs, children and shopping, and I always help old ladies accross the street - whether they want to go or not /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif and have been involved in our union since 1998.

I do not tollerate racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, religious intollerance or most things ending in "ism." (Though my camera would not be the same without its prism... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif )

People everywhere should take a stand for what is right, not what is popular. The world would be so much better.

Besides, how could I tollerate sexism when the Scottish national dress is a skirt (kilt). In relationships over here you never can tell whether it's the men or the women that wear the trousers!!! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Zap
2003-Feb-22, 12:31 AM
My age is.....ummm.....oh dagnabbit my memory is fading. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

g99
2003-Feb-22, 12:49 AM
Zap your a girl too? Dang I get everyone wrong.

Zap
2003-Feb-22, 01:55 AM
On 2003-02-21 19:49, g99 wrote:
Zap your a girl too? Dang I get everyone wrong.


No no no, I'm a boy. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Its my age that I'm keeping confidental hehe.

g99
2003-Feb-22, 02:10 AM
On 2003-02-21 20:55, Zap wrote:
No no no, I'm a boy. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Its my age that I'm keeping confidental hehe.



Hmm..Not a man yet? Good, my competition has just gone down. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif j/k i have a girlfriend.

So not telling us your age? Well i am going to guess anyways. From your posts i would guess early 20's. Somewhere b/t 20 and 25.


Otherwise you are b/t 0 and 19 or 26 and 120. But i still go with my first guess.

Zap
2003-Feb-22, 02:39 AM
On 2003-02-21 21:10, g99 wrote:


On 2003-02-21 20:55, Zap wrote:
No no no, I'm a boy. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Its my age that I'm keeping confidental hehe.



Hmm..Not a man yet? Good, my competition has just gone down. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif j/k i have a girlfriend.

So not telling us your age? Well i am going to guess anyways. From your posts i would guess early 20's. Somewhere b/t 20 and 25.


Otherwise you are b/t 0 and 19 or 26 and 120. But i still go with my first guess.



Hmmmm good guess. But ya know my mouth is taped shut; not saying a word here. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

ljbrs
2003-Feb-22, 11:26 PM
So if the women are discriminating against women, then what hope have we got!

Some women are ignorant about the consequences of their actions. Sooner or later, their own jobs would be on the chopping block.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

nebularain
2003-Feb-23, 12:43 AM
Hey, ljbrs -
Colt has requested we post our genders (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=3985&forum=6&18) in the "Bad Bad Astronomy" section to eliminate the continued confusion of this element missing from our profiles has created. (i.e. posters rferring to female posters as "he" and what-not.) Thought I'd mention it in case you are interestred.

ljbrs
2003-Feb-23, 01:08 AM
nebularin:

I am a female. It never bothers me if there is a mixup about my gender.

ljbrs /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

_________________
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ljbrs on 2003-02-22 20:11 ]</font>