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Colt
2003-Feb-17, 09:04 AM
Well, since I have been exceedingly bored today (this is probably my twelfth time visiting the BABB today) I thought I would get around to actually putting the drawings up on my page.. Almost three months later of course.

Your really do not need to look at the Overview one if you look at all of the others. Also, I beg that you only look at each once and then save them to your computer for future viewing, after all, it is Geocities.

http://www.geocities.com/wandererofthewastes/LCB.html

I would just link the old thread to explain all of this but it seems to have disappeared. I don't think that the search engine for the forum likes me at all, if someone could help me out? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif -Colt

kilopi
2003-Feb-17, 09:47 AM
On 2003-02-17 04:04, Colt wrote:
I would just link the old thread to explain all of this but it seems to have disappeared. I don't think that the search engine for the forum likes me at all, if someone could help me out?
There was your Lunar Outpost Question (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2683&forum=2), Chip's What would we do today on the moon? (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2437&forum=3), g99's colonization and space hotels (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2555&forum=2), Smaug's Politics vs. Physics (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2595&forum=3), and maybe some more. HTH!

Colt
2003-Feb-18, 12:01 AM
*nudge* I wonder if anyone even remembers this? -Colt

johnwitts
2003-Feb-18, 01:04 AM
I remember... Sounds like a plan. When do we start? Have you got any numbers as to how much this would cost? And how would you make concrete in a vaccuum? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Colt
2003-Feb-18, 02:08 AM
You would have to ask someone who is better at math than I. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif I only used concrete as an example. You could also smelt lunar regolith together to form a very hard and durable material. -Colt

DaveOlden
2003-Feb-18, 08:34 AM
Glad to see the drawings up finally /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif (I was actually checking last week..)

Here are some questions that come to mind...

Is the base mostly science? Factory R&D? Purpose will decide the configuration.

Have you made a list of essential components, and their volumetric requirements? (ie, galley, airlocks, sleeping facilities? Maximum crew? This would allow you to see how much room you have left over to play with.

If a fire breaks out, is the base divided into compartments that can be quickly sealed off? Perhaps breathing mask stations could be placed in each compartment, then fire suppressant gas could quench the flame.

Arrival at the base. Is there facility for a lander nearby? Does everyone suit up to get into the base? Recent experience shows that suit up is very involved and time-consuming, and worthwhile only if the task specifically requires EVA. Perhaps a tube, made of spacesuit material, can be deployed between base airlock and lander, and partially pressurized during crew transfer.

An excited jump of glee perhaps at good news from earth would cause a painful bump on the head... have you thought of increasing the standard ceiling height, since this is a long term base? Going up higher would certainly happen more often in the early days...

Thought I'd throw these your way...

-Dave

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DaveOlden on 2003-02-18 03:35 ]</font>

DaveOlden
2003-Feb-18, 08:45 AM
Back in the 70's there was something proposed called 'mooncrete', and although it's still occasionally mentioned, I haven't found the recipe for it. Lunar construction material for sure.

Using heat and pressure, lunar material can be made into essentially 'cinder blocks'. It has been proposed that an unmanned robot factory be sent ahead of the humans to just plug away making these cinder blocks, so that our construction materials are ready and waiting.

kilopi
2003-Feb-18, 12:09 PM
On 2003-02-18 03:34, DaveOlden wrote:
An excited jump of glee perhaps at good news from earth would cause a painful bump on the head... have you thought of increasing the standard ceiling height, since this is a long term base? Going up higher would certainly happen more often in the early days...
You mean, when their legs were stronger?

DaveOlden
2003-Feb-18, 12:42 PM
On 2003-02-18 07:09, kilopi wrote:


On 2003-02-18 03:34, DaveOlden wrote:
An excited jump of glee perhaps at good news from earth would cause a painful bump on the head... have you thought of increasing the standard ceiling height, since this is a long term base? Going up higher would certainly happen more often in the early days...
You mean, when their legs were stronger?


Yes indeed, when their legs were stronger. Colt's Base design seems very much an early generation base, and as such, I believe that most of the base's crew would be recent arrivals from Earth.

I think it's wise to design for those that are essentially at Earth muscle tone. Otherwise, we'd have some very frustrated rookies, nursing their bruises, and vowing "I'll never come to this godforsaken rock again!"

First rule of business: Create return business!

FP
2003-Feb-18, 04:08 PM
Colt -

Way cool design! Did I miss the observation dome/window/port though? If I'm on the moon I'd certainly want to look out!

logicboy
2003-Feb-18, 04:43 PM
Since the is believed to be subsurface Ice on the moon what about adding some sort of factory to the base to produce fuel and water for the crew. Make the base self sustaining to a point possible even add a greenhouse to produce heat, food, and oxygen.

RafaelAustin
2003-Feb-18, 09:58 PM
Damn, I had a long post and hit ESC! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nice drawings Colt! I'm a draftsman if you want any help making blueprints. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I thought there would be more online material (lots of books have been published) on lunar concrete, but this was the only interesting one I found in a quick browse of a Google search for Lunar Concrete Regolith.

FEASIBILITY AND APPLICATIONS OF SULFUR CONCRETE FOR LUNAR BASE DEVELOPMENT (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc97/pdf/1483.PDF)

Colt
2003-Feb-19, 05:57 AM
On 2003-02-18 03:34, DaveOlden wrote:
Glad to see the drawings up finally /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif (I was actually checking last week..)

Here are some questions that come to mind...

Is the base mostly science? Factory R&D? Purpose will decide the configuration.

Have you made a list of essential components, and their volumetric requirements? (ie, galley, airlocks, sleeping facilities? Maximum crew? This would allow you to see how much room you have left over to play with.

If a fire breaks out, is the base divided into compartments that can be quickly sealed off? Perhaps breathing mask stations could be placed in each compartment, then fire suppressant gas could quench the flame.

Arrival at the base. Is there facility for a lander nearby? Does everyone suit up to get into the base? Recent experience shows that suit up is very involved and time-consuming, and worthwhile only if the task specifically requires EVA. Perhaps a tube, made of spacesuit material, can be deployed between base airlock and lander, and partially pressurized during crew transfer.

An excited jump of glee perhaps at good news from earth would cause a painful bump on the head... have you thought of increasing the standard ceiling height, since this is a long term base? Going up higher would certainly happen more often in the early days...

Thought I'd throw these your way...

-Dave

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DaveOlden on 2003-02-18 03:35 ]</font>


I think I had it in mind that it would be a sort of preliminary test base for science and study of the human body in a low gravity environment. There is a considerable amount of space given over to the science labs and now that I think of it there is an extremely large space for just living. Not sure if this is the correct area since this would include sleeping cabins, exercise rooms, lavatories, etc. Some of the so far blank space could be assigned to testing and developing factory techniques (Windowalls!)

Somewhere around a crew of ten. Slightly larger than Freedom's crew but here they would have much more space to carry out experiments and for long term storage. There would be the capability to add on extra storage and equipment rooms for the base (I drew one for an example) and atmospere and waste processing would be located in different places in the base (or seperate auxilarry rooms) so that not just one accident could disable it all.

There are emergency stations like this scattered throughout the base with four main ones containing emergency pressure suits at the end of each hallway above the ladder going down. Sorry for not labeling all of this but I was afraid that I would make everything too cluttered. I think I do need to do some relabeling though.

I think that perhaps the suit idea would be better over the tube concept for a few reasons. The tube would have to be fairly short unless you wanted to have to use a tractor to tow it around. Since that means the lander would have to land close to the base it would also blow up dust onto the base meaning that the crew would have to clean it out especially if it got into the airlock. I think that if we return to the moon we would use one of the newer suit designs (there are several that have already been developed which are much more advanced than the current suits and these would be surface suits rather than space suits). I suppose that you could dig a tunnel out to the landing pad and just have a hatch in the ground which the tube would attach to (I think I may just draw alot of this stuff in and then replace those online with the updated ones).

The height of each level was just a mistake on my part underestimating how small the base was.

I will post more tomorrow. -Colt

DaveOlden
2003-Feb-19, 09:25 AM
I suggest this be called the Crater Occupied Lunar Terminal.

Colt
2003-Feb-20, 10:46 PM
I like it. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks Olden! -Colt

tracer
2003-Feb-20, 11:52 PM
Um ... why does this base have to be nestled inside of a crater? Why not just put it up on the surface? It's not like you'd have to worry about weather affecting its walls.

Rue
2003-Feb-21, 01:59 AM
I have always seen plans for lunar bases as beening subterranean to protect against solar flares, meteors etc. This diagram is from Project Horizon. A plan the US Army had for setting up a lunar outpost.

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/h/hzfigi03.gif

You can see more
here (http://www.astronautix.com/articles/propter1.htm)






edit 4 html

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rue on 2003-02-20 21:02 ]</font>

Rue
2003-Feb-21, 02:06 AM
I like Colt's idea of using what's already there.

Colt
2003-Feb-21, 05:23 AM
Being underground on the Moon is ideal because it provides insulation and protection against radiation and meteorite impacts. You could also just dig new rooms and tunnels into the rocks and coat their surfaces with something to keep the air in. If you had a surface base you would need to construct every single structure and connection on the Moon or transport it there. -Colt

DaveOlden
2003-Feb-21, 10:00 AM
On 2003-02-20 17:46, Colt wrote:
I like it. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks Olden! -Colt


You're welcome. Thought you'd get a kick out of that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

tracer
2003-Feb-21, 10:28 PM
On 2003-02-21 00:23, Colt wrote:
Being underground on the Moon is ideal because it provides insulation and protection against radiation and meteorite impacts.
Um ... but the top surface of your moonbase is completely exposed. At least, that's what it looks like from the plans.

Colt
2003-Feb-22, 03:56 AM
It is sort of armored. Plus there was the idea of pushing extra regolith on top of it for added protection. Of course this would mean that the solar panels would have to be raised above this or located elsewhere. -Colt

Argos
2003-Feb-22, 01:00 PM
Cool initiative, Colt. The low gravity should allow for much liberty in designing. And there is also the famous nanotubes to help in framing structures in the future. We are beholding the birth of Moon architecture.

Colt
2003-Feb-22, 08:49 PM
You'll all have a free guestpass when the base is built. maybe a seperate base will be set up just for astronomy fanatics. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif -Colt

Colt
2003-Aug-15, 09:54 AM
Just thought I would bump this to the top and see what newer members thought of my insanity. :) -Colt

AG-15-Berserker
2003-Aug-18, 01:15 AM
KIREI! *cough* Seriously, how would you launch Mobile suits\space fighters?

mike alexander
2003-Aug-18, 08:01 PM
Rue's posting of the lunar living quarters looked just like a 50's fallout shelter.

Colt
2003-Aug-18, 11:58 PM
KIREI! *cough* Seriously, how would you launch Mobile suits\space fighters?

What are you talking about?


Rue's posting of the lunar living quarters looked just like a 50's fallout shelter.

I agree, I knew it looked like something when I first saw it but I couldn't recall at the time. :D It looks like the type that you order from a catalog, didg a deep trench and put dirt back on top of it. Real inconspicous. There is a company somewhere that makes something like that, I can't recall the name though. And well, it was meant to be a bombshelter from those evil Soviet cosmonauts. :wink: -Colt

AG-15-Berserker
2003-Aug-19, 12:13 AM
I meant defenses.. Like EVA's, moon buggys ..

newt
2003-Aug-19, 09:18 PM
Ah, so that's what it means to "bump". Have been wondering (and thus proclaim my newbie status).
Found an interesting site regarding potential lunar industrial methods here:http://www.permanent.com/i-index.htm.

Regarding your proposed lunar base; I wonder if the needs for protection from asteroid impacts, radiation, etc., are adequately considered?
Cheers. Newt.

man on the moon
2003-Aug-20, 10:00 AM
I meant defenses.. Like EVA's, moon buggys ..

maybe you could have a ramp coming out of the "garage" or wherever the rovers were kept. you would drive up a ways, stop in the airlock, close it behind you, open it in front, and drive out.

sort of like taking the Xplane out of the hanger in Xmen Evolution, except with an airlock. and probably have to fly a flag over the entry so you could find it again, not many roadsigns on the Moon!

maybe this would work for landing too. what if the lander had wheels the same way a sea plane does? it would land on feet first. wheels would be lowered, and an assistant or two would suit up. they would roll the lander over to the hatch and lock the wheels. or the wheels could be drawn up again. just so long as it stays in place.

the hatch would be essentially a pipe in an L shape. the lander would dock with it (with the help of the assistants) and everyone could crawl out down the tube in the ladder. there would only be two people in suits, and the landers would be there job. it would save everyone in the craft suiting up, making it lighter and more spacious. (hey, every inch helps).

man on the moon
2003-Aug-20, 10:04 AM
ok. another idea. i asked Colt about my last one on IRC and he suggested using a bus type vehicle instead of moving the lander. someone would drive out to meet the lander and dock with it, everyone would get in, and it would drive back and dock with the hangar at the base. or go inside, or whatever.

much better! also saves weight and makes for fewer pieces to break on the lander. the simpler it is, the less likely to break. especially in a harsh environment. you can't just get out and walk across the tarmac on the Moon if something breaks down!

or another idea: arong the same lines, but different. something like the steps on a trolley that meets you at the airport.

instead of just the steps though, there would be a big stretchable tube covering them, which would join up with a long slinky like tube that would stretch to the entry of the base.

imagine the trolley pulling one end of the slinky, and as it moves it feeds out. the top of the trolley would dock with the hatch of the lander. the people inside would step out into what looks like a greenhouse (the kind beside the grocery store) that is tilted at an angle. they would walk down a flight of steps to the ground. here the tube would stretch out to the base.

watching this happen would be like watching a snake stretch itself out. at first just one, then two, and eventually however many ribs would be stretched out making a pressurized pathway straight to the base.

something like this would be cheaper and easier to fix than a telescoping metal tube. if it were hit by a meteor, one or two sections could be easily replaced. it could also service several landers in a short amount of time if need arose.

Colt
2003-Aug-21, 12:30 AM
I'll probably do some more drawings to illustrate some of these ideas when I find the time.. It shouldn't take me long though. :) -Colt