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Damburger
2006-Jan-31, 06:44 PM
Anyone seen this? I saw the DVD in town and decided to buy it, as I'd missed the series when it was first broadcast.

I'm watching the first episode and its pretty good - although it does seem to dwell on the Nazis a bit. British TV seems to have a bit of a fixation on them.

Alasdhair
2006-Jan-31, 09:40 PM
It's quite good: telling the story through the behind-the-scenes rivalry of von Braun and Korolev (hence all the Nazis)

publiusr
2006-Feb-01, 10:07 PM
Will it be on BBC America--or has that gone HGTV as well?

The Supreme Canuck
2006-Feb-01, 11:52 PM
HGTV? Home and Garden Television?

You mean HDTV, surely. ;)

Damburger
2006-Feb-02, 11:55 AM
Will it be on BBC America--or has that gone HGTV as well?

Given that there was an American team involved in the production (National Geographic IIRC) it would make sense for it to appear on US TV.

Definitely worth watching. I think it benefits from having both Russian and American TV companies behind it, and doesn't have much of a bias either way.

The Incredible Bloke
2006-Feb-02, 01:11 PM
I only saw the one about the moon race, it was very good.

jumbo
2006-Feb-02, 02:04 PM
I saw it on tv last year and got the DVD for christmas. I really enjoyed the series. it was rather good for one of those docudrama style programmes

kylenano
2006-Feb-03, 10:19 AM
I got the DVD for Christmas too, but had been too busy to watch it until a few days ago. It was getting a bit late, so I thought I'd watch the first episode and then get some sleep. But after one episode, I wanted to find out what happened next and ended up watching all four - and having a very late night!

Damburger
2006-Feb-03, 03:17 PM
I got the DVD for Christmas too, but had been too busy to watch it until a few days ago. It was getting a bit late, so I thought I'd watch the first episode and then get some sleep. But after one episode, I wanted to find out what happened next and ended up watching all four - and having a very late night!

You wanted to find out what happened?

SPOILER WARNING




The Americans won :)

NEOWatcher
2006-Feb-03, 03:34 PM
The Americans won :)
Well, maybe we won the moon race. But will the space race ever end? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n060.gif

kylenano
2006-Feb-03, 04:06 PM
You wanted to find out what happened?

SPOILER WARNING




The Americans won :)
Did they? It wasn't all a hoax filmed in a remote desert? ;)

Knowing what happened didn't stop people watching Titanic or Apollo 13 ;) - but perhaps I should have phrased that better - what happened to Korolev and von Braun. Some of the events they were showing were state secrets for decades so they wouldn't have been in contemporary accounts.

And how times have changed. In one scene someone is frantically making calculations - on a slide rule.

publiusr
2006-Feb-03, 04:12 PM
Well, maybe we won the moon race. But will the space race ever end? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n060.gif


Let me tell you something. The Russians won the space race.

1. Boeings Sea Launch--powered by....Zenit

2. LockMart's Atlas V.....a half-strength Zenit.

3. Boeing's Delta IV uses horizontal integration learned from...the former Soviets.

4. R-7 and Proton dominate the LV market.

5. ISS uses Mir 2 modules. etc etc


And the space privatizers have........nothing

Damburger
2006-Feb-03, 05:06 PM
Let me tell you something. The Russians won the space race.

1. Boeings Sea Launch--powered by....Zenit

2. LockMart's Atlas V.....a half-strength Zenit.

3. Boeing's Delta IV uses horizontal integration learned from...the former Soviets.

4. R-7 and Proton dominate the LV market.

5. ISS uses Mir 2 modules. etc etc


And the space privatizers have........nothing

Plus the Soyuz capsule is still in service whilst Apollo is a museum exhibit... yeah I know. In the limited context of getting a man on the moon though, the US did win.

suntrack2
2006-Feb-06, 05:46 PM
i am hearing bbc news on radio since 8th class, at that time i was just 13 yrs old, mark talley was a great bbc correspondent, i like style very much.

i am loving bbc since 13yrs of age, now i am 39, hence 39-13=26
since 26 years i am hearing these news, great news, great knowledgable stuff, bbc is really really working very hard in reaching in the people's ears since a long time, BBC wish you all the best and long live (broadcast).

:)
sunil

publiusr
2006-Feb-09, 09:38 PM
When I was a lad, about all I ever saw was the R-7. I thought that was all the Russians had. Then later I heard about Salyut.

Only in the 1990s did things begin to clear.

Parrothead
2006-Feb-10, 02:51 PM
For those in Canada, History Television will be carrying this series on Tuesdays at 8pm, starting Feb 21st.

JohnD
2006-Feb-12, 10:50 AM
There is a book of the series too, same title.
More detail, less pictures.
Go for both is my recommendation.

The Korolev story made me think of the Ursula McGuin novel, The Dispossessed. Heroic devotion to an idea, in Korolev's case to space flight, but both in the face of personal persecution and limited resources.

[EDIT] Just in case, the following could be defined as a spoiler.

For anyone who has not read the novel, it portrays an anarchist society, rather than a communist one. That society works, up to a point, but cannot tolerate the ideas of a physicist/mathematician, and persecutes him for them. He achieves his goals and there is a happy ending that does not betray the concept. Korolev was both betrayed and persecuted, for no reason and for his object of space flight, rather than delivery of weapons by missile, and although he did achieve his goals, there was not a happy ending for him.
He is a much more interesting character than the opportunistic chancer and trimmer, von Braun.
JOhn

Parrothead
2006-Feb-22, 11:31 PM
I saw the first two parts on our history channel, last night (forgot to tape them, but I'm sure they'll repeat at a later date). I liked the, "You are becoming too well known, no-one can know who you are, Mr/Comrade Chief Designer." comment. I'm looking forward to seeing parts 3 and 4, next Tuesday. :)

Parrothead
2006-Mar-01, 03:34 PM
Parts 3 and 4 aired last night (these ones I managed to get on tape), interesting series. I'm sure the whole series should repeat at some point, allowing me to get parts 1 and 2 on tape (I'll have to check if it is out on region 1 dvd), I'll look into the book as well. Well done series! :)

publiusr
2006-Mar-08, 09:56 PM
How does Glushko play out? He was often made into a monster.

ToSeek
2006-May-31, 08:20 PM
Coming to the US (http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/spacerace/showDescription.html)

National Geographic Channel, Sunday and Monday, 9-11 pm (Eastern or Pacific)

Dr Nigel
2006-May-31, 08:46 PM
1. Boeings Sea Launch--powered by....Zenit

2. LockMart's Atlas V.....a half-strength Zenit.

...

I though Zenit made cameras...?

Dr Nigel
2006-May-31, 08:48 PM
Back on-topic, I saw the series when it was originally transmitted (good old Auntie Beeb!) last year. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and learned a few new things, too.

I think the reason that the first episode focussed on the Germans so much was because no-one else had done as much work as they had in the field, so to move forward, it was important to use as much of their groundwork as possible.

Sticks
2006-May-31, 09:59 PM
Here is a coincidence, on Monday I played back the whole series I videoed. (BTW does the DVD have any extras?)

We also discussed this a while back, IIRC on Apollo Hoax

Some questions came to mind

If Corelov had not died, would the Russians have beaten the US to the moon or at least a sweep around.

How much was VVB a war criminal. At the end of programme 1 it said that his file on operation paper clip revealed that he had selected slave labour to work on the V2, this was witheld from the American public.

Did this not taint the US space effort? One HB on Apollo Hoax (Magimatrix???) said something to the effect that he would prefer that the US had faked the landings, rather than rely on the work of someone who was a war criminal who should have hanged at Nuremberg. When Programme 1 revealed that bit about VVB war record, he almost seemed to have a point.

Dr Nigel
2006-Jun-01, 09:31 PM
Well, aside, perhaps, from the fact that the trials held at Nuremburg were hardly the most objective in history...

If not for Werner von Braun, I do not believe the US would ever have even started the Apollo programme. Without his vision and persistence, NASA would not have developed the launch vehicle necessary to send the Apollo missions on their way (i.e. the Saturn V rocket).

Sticks
2006-Jun-02, 05:42 AM
The thread on Apollo Hoax (http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=apollo&action=display&thread=1126083393)

Mellow
2006-Jun-02, 06:58 AM
Dr Nigel, I think you make a good point, regarding VV-B and the Saturn V. My other perspective is that, maybe, without VV-B, the US might have built their space programme with more input from the X1 to X15 teams inputs. (Apologies for the gross simplification).

By now, the US might have had a fully reusable SCRAMJET orbital system and be constructing interplanetary probes in orbit for orbital launch..... you can follow this line of arguement to its logical conclusion.

Or am I just being too simplistic?

Dr Nigel
2006-Jun-02, 07:53 PM
Mellow, you may have a point there, but I'm afraid I'm a bit too short on facts to comment.

So I've posted this comment, to point out that I wasn't going to comment.

Did you ever get that feeling that there was a logical inconsistency somewhere, but you couldn't quite pinpoint it?

Maksutov
2006-Jun-05, 03:48 AM
Just watched the first two-hour segment.

Overall, darn good production values. Just a few slip-ups, the most noticeable of which were:

The V-2 was not powered as it dove towards its target. A couple of clips imply this.
The first rocket mail was back in the 1930s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Mail), not in the 1950s by a Jupiter-C missile as claimed.
The Jupiter-C Redstone boosters shown all carry the production code "UE", which was only used for the extended Redstone that carried Explorer 1 aloft.
Many scenes of program heads with no protective gear, including von Braun, meeting under what appears to be a fully-fueled Redstone.
The supposed rocketcam for Korolev's first liquid-fueled launch shows a coastline that looks remarkably like Cape Canaveral during the 1950s.The actor portraying von Braun was close enough (what happened to his broken arm during the surrender to the Americans?), but the fellow for the Korolev part was almost a doppelgänger, right down to the eyebrows.

The spaceship von Braun uses for his Disney special is nothing like what was on the actual show. Perhaps there were copyright issues here. The real thing (for the Moon orbit) shows up later on the cover of Life magazine in the USSR.

There some others, but I'll need to rewatch the recording.

One jarring thing during the broadcast was the NatGeo commercial for the "Conspiracy Moon Landing" immediately after this. While showing Apollo footage, the announcer intoned, "Next. Were the Apollo Moon landings a hoax? Conspiracy theorists have compelling evidence. Moon photos with no stars and video of the flag fluttering where there was no wind. 'Conspiracy Moon Landing', coming up next on the National Geographic Channel."

The National Geographic Society should be ashamed of itself.

Graybeard6
2006-Jun-05, 05:16 AM
I watched "Space Race" and the "Conspiracy Moon Landing" program.
I had a few problems with the first, in that ignored the "crossbow" and "paperclip" programs. Also ignored was that the US Army had a ballistic missile program during WW2, which lead to development of the Corporal missile, which used storable hypergolic fuel. It only had a 40-mile range (with a 1500 lb. nuclear warhead) and a 4-hour countdown, but it beat the Redstone into service.
The program also had almost no mention of American contributions; there was one shot of Holger Toftoy, but no mention of General John B. Medaris or Dr. John McDaniel.
Don't get me wrong, WVB and the other German engineers gave a great impetus to the space program, but it was American designers and manufacturers that made it a reality. As an example: I have a friend who is about to retire from NASA. As a young graduate engineer he was put on a team to come up with a way for the astronauts to get around on the moon. They designed and built the LEM it in nine months.
I enjoyed "Conspiracy Moon Landing".

Maksutov
2006-Jun-05, 05:36 AM
[edit]The program also had almost no mention of American contributions; there was one shot of Holger Toftoy, but no mention of General John B. Medaris or Dr. John McDaniel.The absence of Medaris was a glaring omission. He was a prime mover re the Army ballistic missile program. McDaniel's management and organizational skills equaled his innovative engineering abilities. Plus there was no mention of the Honest John program, which paved the way for larger solid rockets leading up to the STS SRBs, and, which, in a scaled-down version of its descendant, the Sergeant, helped put Explorer 1 into orbit.
As an example: I have a friend who is about to retire from NASA. As a young graduate engineer he was put on a team to come up with a way for the astronauts to get around on the moon. They designed and built the LEM it in nine months.The LEM was for getting on the Moon. Perhaps he was part of the Lunar Roving Vehicle (LRV) team?

I enjoyed "Conspiracy Moon Landing".Hopefully for its complete debunking of the CTs.

Gillianren
2006-Jun-05, 08:34 AM
Is that the one with Jay?

Maksutov
2006-Jun-05, 09:51 AM
Is that the one with Jay?Yes.

BTW, in the intro to the show, they used some of Jay's footage showing the desert, a van, and a person in an lunar suit (Jay? I didn't watch the rest, having seen it and recorded it on DVD before (as you know)), over which the narration was at the time speculating that the landings were faked. Unintentional juxtapositioning, of course.

:doh:

ToSeek
2006-Jun-05, 03:41 PM
AAARGH - forgot to tape it last night. Fortunately, it's being repeated a couple of times.

Trantor
2006-Jun-05, 05:03 PM
I saw part one last night and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to part two tonight. I felt bad for the hardship endured by Korolev. In his case, failure means being sent to a savage prison, which means slow death. I haven't read much about the Russian Space Program history, and this show has helped me appreciate the hardships their scientists went thru. Highly recommended.

tlbs101
2006-Jun-05, 10:27 PM
I enjoyed the show also -- I learned a few things, too, about the Soviet program, and the early years after WWII when Dr. von Braun and his team were languishing. What a waste of man-years of good talent! If the US gov't had put him and his team to do space-related work immediately after WWII, we might have had men on the moon by 1959, instead of 1969.

I laughed at how the Soviets "christened" their launch vehicles. Maybe that's why they had so many early failures -- hmmm.

I also thought it was stupid of National Geo. to show "Space Race" back-to-back with the Apollo Hoax show. That show had its own merits, though. I especially liked the format: Kaysing hoax statement, then Expert; "but here we can show that this just isn't true...", next Kaysing hoax statement, then Expert; "but here we can show that this just isn't true...", next Kaysing hoax statement... Just like an arcade game of Whack Whack.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-06, 01:37 AM
Currently recording Part 2. Somewhere along the way, the writers and/or producers got the idea the Mercury-Redstone could put an astronaut in orbit. The narrator has said that twice now. The best that vehicle could do was put an astronaut into a 15-minute ballistic trajectory which peaked out around 120 miles up.

R.A.F.
2006-Jun-09, 02:20 AM
I actually think it was a fairly good show, however,
speaking of errors, I did spot a couple...

This is a direct quote of the narration during the Apollo 8 Lunar orbit insertion sequence...


They disappear behind the Moon. For 3 minutes, NASA loses radio contact.

...that's a pretty fast Apollo spacecraft. :)

Another error...from the last sentence of the narration...


They're the only humans to ever break free of Earth's gravity, and walk the heavens.

Dr Nigel
2006-Jun-09, 10:22 AM
I watched "Space Race" and the "Conspiracy Moon Landing" program.
I had a few problems with the first, ...
I enjoyed "Conspiracy Moon Landing".

What, and you didn't have any problems with the second? That kind of thing would have had me shouting at the telly!

publiusr
2006-Jun-28, 05:04 PM
I saw part one last night and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to part two tonight. I felt bad for the hardship endured by Korolev. In his case, failure means being sent to a savage prison, which means slow death. I haven't read much about the Russian Space Program history, and this show has helped me appreciate the hardships their scientists went thru. Highly recommended.

Perhaps we will see Space Race Two?

I am hoping for a program to show, how solids were developed here while the Soviets concentrated on liquids. The program would end with Buran and Glushko's death. I think he was overly villified in the special.