PDA

View Full Version : Why doesn't the Matrix makes sense?



randb
2006-Feb-01, 05:40 AM
For all those who watched all 3, did you spot any discrepancies in the whole story?

Glutomoto
2006-Feb-01, 09:03 AM
if i recall correctly, the humans that are plugged into the matrix are kept in that state because their body heat is what powers the machine civilization. isn't that thermodynamically backwards ?

__________________________________________________ _______________
the three laws of thermodynamics.
1.You can't win.
(no energy change will ever yield more energy than you began with...a dead heat).

2. You must lose.
(All energy conversions transform at least a small portion of the useful energy into useless heat)

3. You can't get out of the game.
(As we continue to use up all available energy sources, eventually all the energy is in the form of heat...i.e."the heat death of the universe". There is no way out of this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't remember who stated the three laws that way but when you tell me I will be sure to credit you in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway i tried not to let that little irritant bother me for the rest of the movie.

:)

mid
2006-Feb-01, 10:21 AM
I've heard them slightly differently, with the second law as "you can't break even", if that helps you track the source.

hhEb09'1
2006-Feb-01, 11:22 AM
I liked the part in part I when Neo reaches to open the door knob, and you can make out the camera crew in the reflection.

worzel
2006-Feb-01, 11:28 AM
You must have good eyesight!

I didn't spot any inconsistencies in 2 or 3, but then I haven't been able to stay awake through either of them. I thought 1 was great though.

hhEb09'1
2006-Feb-01, 11:29 AM
DVD, pause the closeup :)

Nicolas
2006-Feb-01, 11:32 AM
3. You can't get out of the game.
(As we continue to use up all available energy sources, eventually all the energy is in the form of heat...i.e."the heat death of the universe". There is no way out of this.


If you use heat to warm water, and transfer the steam into mechanical energy, aren't you converting heat into mechanical energy? Or is the net result more heat energy than before anyway?

Moose
2006-Feb-01, 12:25 PM
If you use heat to warm water, and transfer the steam into mechanical energy, aren't you converting heat into mechanical energy? Or is the net result more heat energy than before anyway?

You're converting some heat into mechanical energy. But application of that mechanical energy will involve fricton, which will produce waste heat. You could again try to tap some of that heat to produce more energy, but at some point, the process must end with waste heat.

You can't win, you can't break even, but you are welcome to try to come as close to perfect efficiency as you can before the (closed) system grinds to an inevitable halt, or (more typically) input energy into your (now open) system. Either of those approaches are kosher as far as thermodynamics is concerned.

I still say Zion must be a "less attractive" matrix level, which makes the true energy source (and purpose for that matter) of The Machines quite irrelevant.

Nicolas
2006-Feb-01, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the explanation Moose, I understand the point.

captain swoop
2006-Feb-01, 01:58 PM
It doesn't make sense because it's just a film

farmerjumperdon
2006-Feb-01, 02:03 PM
I really like the trilogy as a whole, but found #2 to be lacking compared to #1 and #3. The 1st was definitely the best.

I pondered the energy thing too, because they implied the sky was blacked out to the point where no solar energy gets through. So where was the Earth as an enclosed system getting it's energy. I know, the humans, but where did the energy to keep them alive come from, and so on and so forth.

worzel
2006-Feb-01, 02:23 PM
I thought there were so many possibilites with the premise that just weren't explored. I wonder if a series picking up after #1, like BSG, would have better.

farmerjumperdon
2006-Feb-01, 02:52 PM
I also wonder how much Duracell payed for product placement in the scene where Morpheus holds up the battery and makes the poignant statement about humans being turned into " . . . this."

teddyv
2006-Feb-01, 03:17 PM
If I remember correctly there was a line indicating most of the machine world was powered by fusion reactors. Why they would need humans as batteries seems kind of irrelevant if they already have a far more efficient power source.

In the third movie, the battle in Zion was pretty silly. Why the machines demonstrate "schooling" behaviour is beyond me. It seems if they spread out a little more the whole battle would have been a lot shorter and more successful.

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-01, 03:18 PM
It doesn't make sense because it's just a film

Y'know, I always found this such a convenient excuse.

It's like, "I don't have to bother making something believable -- I just have to make flashy effects!"

It's lazy.

ToSeek
2006-Feb-01, 03:35 PM
Moved to a more appropriate location.

Dave Mitsky
2006-Feb-01, 03:51 PM
Well, it didn't make sense to me (apart from the inevitable desire to cash in on a moneymaker) that there were two lame sequels to the first film, which I thought was pretty entertaining.

Dave Mitsky

Moose
2006-Feb-01, 04:05 PM
Moved to a more appropriate location.

Fine. Be that way. Spoilsport. ;)

sidmel
2006-Feb-01, 04:31 PM
It wasnít just two sequels. The makers of the Matrix also worked with animator and video game groups to fill in gaps between the movies. If you wanted the complete story, you had to buy the Matrix Animatrix, which covered the creation of the Matrix, the machine rebellion, the destruction of the Osiris (which seems to be important to the 3rd movie), and ton of other filler info. Next, you had to buy the video game by Atari, Eon and Warner Brothers to get more of the story. And if I remember correctly, there was some story filler only available through sponsored Web sites.

In short, you miss a lot of info with the next two movies if you donít see the other background resources and the movies then seem pretty disjointed. Great marketing ploy, personally, I think a pretty dirty trick to pull on die hard fans.

peter eldergill
2006-Feb-01, 09:15 PM
The biggest discrepency IMO, is that the first one rocked and the other two....didn't rock (don't want to use innappropriate language to show my tru feelings about this..!)

Pete

Swift
2006-Feb-01, 10:02 PM
Back in this post (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=641942&postcount=64) I asked the same question about thermodynamics, which lead to some other Matrix discussion.

James_Digriz
2006-Feb-02, 12:04 AM
For all those who watched all 3, did you spot any discrepancies in the whole story?

Funny you should start this thread. Look at what I found not more then 2 minutes ago looking for a photo of Sgt Hulka from the movie Stripes:

Moviemistakes.com The Matrix (http://www.moviemistakes.com/film808)

Gullible Jones
2006-Feb-02, 01:09 AM
Bad science and worse AI in Zion. The only way to render it believable is to say that Zion is just another (hopefully chrooted and otherwise secured) part of the Matrix, the whole thing about using human body heat or whatever was misinformation designed to root out rebellious types, etc., and that take on it has been officially dismissed.

worzel
2006-Feb-02, 01:31 AM
Funny you should start this thread. Look at what I found not more then 2 minutes ago looking for a photo of Sgt Hulka from the movie Stripes:

Moviemistakes.com The Matrix (http://www.moviemistakes.com/film808)
Didn't you get it? They were all clues that the reality wasn't real, glitches in the system :)

Captain Kidd
2006-Feb-02, 02:59 AM
Well, it didn't make sense to me (apart from the inevitable desire to cash in on a moneymaker) that there were two lame sequels to the first film, which I thought was pretty entertaining.

Dave MitskyAgreed. Although I later found out that they never intended there to be sequels. then the money started rolling in and as is want with Hollywood films, they started on the sequals.

But also, the big thing about #1 was the shock factor of discovering that reality wasn't. That was a high bar for the other two to live up to.

That Moviemistakes.com The Matrix (http://www.moviemistakes.com/film808) page is interesting. I'll have to look for some of those. The last one about the "fast hands" is a common continuity mistake when they do a lot of shots and actors start forgetting where their limbs were in the previous takes. A big one I always remember was in the Kevin Costner Robin Hood. When he lands on shore and falls to the ground kissing it and somebody offers a hand to help him back up (was it Morgan Freeman's character?), they grasp right arm to right arm, but in the next scene they're left arm to left arm.

While I do agree that the "because it's a movie" arguement can cover some stuff, too much of it ruins a film. Which author was it that said that a good sci fi book only had 1 impossible high-tech item?

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Feb-02, 04:05 AM
It wasnít just two sequels. The makers of the Matrix also worked with animator and video game groups to fill in gaps between the movies. If you wanted the complete story, you had to buy the Matrix Animatrix, which covered the creation of the Matrix, the machine rebellion, the destruction of the Osiris (which seems to be important to the 3rd movie), and ton of other filler info. Next, you had to buy the video game by Atari, Eon and Warner Brothers to get more of the story. And if I remember correctly, there was some story filler only available through sponsored Web sites.

In short, you miss a lot of info with the next two movies if you donít see the other background resources and the movies then seem pretty disjointed. Great marketing ploy, personally, I think a pretty dirty trick to pull on die hard fans.
Yeah, holy crap... That angers me.

The Animatrix wasn't too bad, though. The Second Renaissance (Part 1 & 2) were pretty good, in my opinion. The others weren't too bad either.

But the games... ohh, the games. I hadn't played them, but I either hear bad things or nothing at all. Enter the Matrix, and The Matrix Online (they killed Morpheus), and The Matrix: Path of Neo (with an all-new ending to the final Smith-Neo battle!). :sick:

James_Digriz
2006-Feb-02, 04:14 AM
Yeah, holy crap... That angers me.

Really it's not that bad. Just buy the Annimatrix for 10 bucks or however much it is now and your pretty much covered. An excellent collection of animation.

Peteman
2006-Feb-02, 05:49 AM
Some people put forward the idea that the humans weren't being used as batteries but as organic processors. I think that's more plausible actually, and the batteries idea were simply wild guesses that the Zionists assumed were fact (though the machines probably did liquify dead humans and used them to feed the living, but waste not, want not, even if it is disturbing)

Jens
2006-Feb-02, 06:47 AM
Y'know, I always found this such a convenient excuse.

It's like, "I don't have to bother making something believable -- I just have to make flashy effects!"

It's lazy.

It's more than just a convenient excuse, though. Just think of kung fu movies. Why do the bad guys all stand around in a circle and attack one by one, instead of all moving in at once and pouncing on the good guy? Well, maybe it's supposed to be a ethics thing (no ganging up), but they're bad guys, so why should they respect that? The real thing is, it makes the fight scenes last longer, and gives the audience the chance to focus on one thing at a time, which is important for a movie but not for real life.

worzel
2006-Feb-02, 08:30 AM
It's more than just a convenient excuse, though. Just think of kung fu movies. Why do the bad guys all stand around in a circle and attack one by one, instead of all moving in at once and pouncing on the good guy? Well, maybe it's supposed to be a ethics thing (no ganging up), but they're bad guys, so why should they respect that? The real thing is, it makes the fight scenes last longer, and gives the audience the chance to focus on one thing at a time, which is important for a movie but not for real life.
And only about four people at a time can get at you anyway, so there'd be no problem having a super hero take his time going through them four at a time instead of one.

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-02, 02:41 PM
It's more than just a convenient excuse, though. Just think of kung fu movies. Why do the bad guys all stand around in a circle and attack one by one, instead of all moving in at once and pouncing on the good guy? Well, maybe it's supposed to be a ethics thing (no ganging up), but they're bad guys, so why should they respect that? The real thing is, it makes the fight scenes last longer, and gives the audience the chance to focus on one thing at a time, which is important for a movie but not for real life.

Are you saying that it's impossible to accomplish that WITHOUT doing what the movies do?

I disagree.

Once more, it's a convenient excuse. Plus, certain themed movies don't need "realism", per se, but at least believability, and continuity!

Krel
2006-Feb-03, 01:58 AM
If I remember correctly there was a line indicating most of the machine world was powered by fusion reactors. Why they would need humans as batteries seems kind of irrelevant if they already have a far more efficient power source.

In the third movie, the battle in Zion was pretty silly. Why the machines demonstrate "schooling" behaviour is beyond me. It seems if they spread out a little more the whole battle would have been a lot shorter and more successful.

After the speech about the first Matrix by Agent Smith, I really thought that it was going to turn out the the AIs were actually taking care of humanity after some sort of cataclysm.

What I couldn't understand is why were the humans using machine guns? They don't seem to have a problem with electronics, and so a high energy radio frequency (HERF) gun would have been more efficent, and pretty simple to make. Just point the HERF guns at the holes, and fry the AIs as they fly in. Of course the battle would have been alot shorter.

David.

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-03, 02:37 AM
I didn't get why they were inside of mechs that were open to the elements. The whole point of Mechs is ARMORED PROTECTION, not exposing the pilots to what can rip them to shreds.

The machines could've easily used ranged weapons (what's with the whole getting close thing? It's silly).

The machines could have dispersed.

The guys in the mechs could've used much more powerful weapons that had a greater area of effect.

worzel
2006-Feb-03, 06:44 AM
Plus, certain themed movies don't need "realism", per se, but at least believability, and continuity!Very true. The first movie was hardly realistic. When I don't like a movie I often criticise the unbelievability and the plot holes, but that's not really what I don't like about it, they just seem to stick out in a bad movie.

So what is it that makes a movie bad? Why can I watch Matrix I and totally suspend disbelief, but not the other two? I think internal consistency (or as you say, continuity) is a big part of that. Matrix 2 and 3 also had way too much action and not enough atmosphere, IMO. But there is something about how premises that require suspension of disbelief are introduced that I can't put my finger on. Maybe it is simply that there should be only one.

Charly
2006-Feb-04, 12:11 AM
What was all that about destroying Zion for the fith time, or something?

I didnt understand what the whole purpose of Zion was. Why build something just to destroy it every thousand of so generations.

And would the skies still be black?

The films hints that it may be many thousands of years since the original war (having to repopulate Zion from seven people or something - over and over again).

Apart from fusion, fission and thermal power, what is stopping a machine race this advanced from building solar panels in orbit, or above the clouds?

Nereth
2006-Feb-04, 01:07 AM
I dont remember where I heard it but I was told once that the machines kept the humans alive more so out of pitty and wishing to understand them better. Sort of like keeping them in a zoo. It makes sense and goes along with the first matrix created that was a pure utopia. While they had huge fight and the humans tried to wipe them off the face of the earth the machines still felt a need to keep humans alive.


What was all that about destroying Zion for the fith time, or something?

I didnt understand what the whole purpose of Zion was. Why build something just to destroy it every thousand of so generations.


Well Zion was just another part of the matrix so I would imagine it wouldnt take all that much time to rebuild it since it was probaly just software and bunch of data. I dont fully understand The Matrix in its entirety as I havent seen the third one or researched it enough but I think destroying Zion every once in awhile was to help keep things fresh. Imagine if the constant threat of the machines kept dragging for thousands of years but nothing ever changed. People would start to wonder and those in Zion would start disbelieving in reality causing them to wake up just like they woke up before.

Defender
2006-Feb-06, 06:52 PM
The reason why the machines kept recreating Zion was that the Matrix itself wasn't perfect- a certain percentage of humans would always reject the simulation, and try to break free. This would, in turn, cause other humans to break free and eventually lead to the complete collapse of the Matrix itself- and hence no energy/processing power for the machines.

Zion was created to provide a kind of release valve for humans who couldn't accept the Matrix- it keeps them together in one place, where the machines can monitor them and stop them from causing too much trouble. And every so often, when there are too many humans to ignore, the machines come in and exterminate them all.

(Incidentally, Zion is not part of the Matrix- it unequivocally exists in the real world according to the films).

The prophecy of The One is all part of this- when The One has freed enough humans to fill Zion to a certain level, mechanisms are in place (as seen in the second film) to trigger the machine's attack on Zion and to bring The One to the Source, where he selects 23 other humans to join him and start a new civilisation in a new Zion.

All quite neat, really!

Moose
2006-Feb-06, 08:27 PM
(Incidentally, Zion is not part of the Matrix- it unequivocally exists in the real world according to the films).

Yes, I'm aware of the claim. And yet, someone inside the Matrix would also claim unequivocally that they exist in the real world.

Do we have any evidence of this that doesn't come from a resident of Zion or someone/something highly motivated to keep them hemmed in there?

Fortis
2006-Feb-07, 12:45 PM
If I remember correctly there was a line indicating most of the machine world was powered by fusion reactors. Why they would need humans as batteries seems kind of irrelevant if they already have a far more efficient power source.
Perhaps the machines don't need it, but its like the difference between having central heating in your house and sitting down in front of a crackling wood fire. ;)

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-07, 02:09 PM
Yes, I'm aware of the claim. And yet, someone inside the Matrix would also claim unequivocally that they exist in the real world.

Do we have any evidence of this that doesn't come from a resident of Zion or someone/something highly motivated to keep them hemmed in there?

I hate to say it, but speculation like this, while fun, usually gets annoying.

Prove that Neo wasn't God's puppet and used Divine Influence.

Prove that the Matrix wasn't really made by God, and he simply had them THINK that humans made it.

Quite simply, you can take any story and turn it around completely -- so I prefer to stick with what was revealed in the story. In the story of The Matrix, there wasn't even a "hint" (at least, not an overt one) that there was a Matrix within a Matrix. And quite frankly, I'm glad they didn't go that route; while interesting, it's been done before, and I don't really like that storyline idea.

Moose
2006-Feb-07, 02:46 PM
Quite simply, you can take any story and turn it around completely -- so I prefer to stick with what was revealed in the story. In the story of The Matrix, there wasn't even a "hint" (at least, not an overt one) that there was a Matrix within a Matrix.

Of course there was. There are two incidents that point firmly to Zion not being the real world:

The traitor that gets possessed by Smith over the phone. If the traitor was biological (even augmented), Smith could not have done this.

When Neo is blinded, he realizes he can sense matrix code around him, both the environment and his antagonist, allowing him sight of a sort which permits him to defend himself.

If matrix-within-matrix was an unintended conclusion, then these are massive, overt, and plot hulling continuity problems.

Then there's the Machine's use of a "perpetual motion" energy source, which by the laws of thermodynamics simply cannot function as presented. Pretty clear evidence that Morpheous doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about in this instance, and that the machines goal is misrepresented. Also clear evidence that we can't take what is overtly presented as given.

You say that Zion is presented as the real world. (And I'm making a distinction here between "presented as" and "is".) I'm asking you, other than Morpheus's assumption that Zion is the real world (and as far as he knows, it is) what evidence is there that the characters presentation of Zion as the real world is correct?

Matrix-within-a-matrix is the only way to repair the continuity of these movies.

As for your being annoyed by such speculation, I deeply sympathize. It's got to be irritating to have those gangs of alien space monkeys who burst in and force you at banana-cannon-point to click on all these nasty links you don't like. At least, that's the only scenario that makes any sort of rational sense considering how often you participate in threads in which you insist upon vocally complaining about how such threads annoy you. No, it's got to be the alien space monkeys.

Kesh
2006-Feb-07, 05:59 PM
Some people put forward the idea that the humans weren't being used as batteries but as organic processors. I think that's more plausible actually, and the batteries idea were simply wild guesses that the Zionists assumed were fact (though the machines probably did liquify dead humans and used them to feed the living, but waste not, want not, even if it is disturbing)
From interviews I've read, this was the original concept in the script. However, the producers and film company felt that audiences wouldn't "get it" and forced the battery concept onto the film.

Personally, I just try to replace references to batteries with CPUs in my head, and I enjoy it much more. ;)

Kesh
2006-Feb-07, 06:01 PM
Of course there was. There are two incidents that point firmly to Zion not being the real world:

The traitor that gets possessed by Smith over the phone. If the traitor was biological (even augmented), Smith could not have done this.

I think you misremember this. Smith infected the 'traitor' while the traitor was still inside the Matrix (trying to get out, but not on the phone yet). The traitor then carried the Smith persona in his real mind when he disconnected from the Matrix.

Moose
2006-Feb-07, 06:21 PM
I think you misremember this. Smith infected the 'traitor' while the traitor was still inside the Matrix (trying to get out, but not on the phone yet). The traitor then carried the Smith persona in his real mind when he disconnected from the Matrix.

Smith caught the traitor on the way out, yes, but there's no way Smith could have gone past the interface into the human part of the traitor, nor could the interface have been used (especially unplugged!) to direct the traitor's actions or muscle movements. The ship's computer, sure. The biological brain? No way. If the machines had that capability, Smith would have been all over Morpheus like white on rice for the Zion codes, rather than waste time waxing eloquent about the nature of humanity in between bouts of torture.

For that matter, Neo would never have escaped the Matrix in the first place, 'cause Trinity would have been compromised and exploited the moment she'd been detected.

Moose
2006-Feb-07, 06:26 PM
Personally, I just try to replace references to batteries with CPUs in my head, and I enjoy it much more. ;)

*grin* I just keep firmly in mind that Captain Morpheus and First Officer Trinity both rose to their level of incompetence, and they didn't really have anybody there to translate reality into Captain-Dummy-Speak.

:razz:

teddyv
2006-Feb-07, 07:33 PM
If I remember correctly there was a line indicating most of the machine world was powered by fusion reactors. Why they would need humans as batteries seems kind of irrelevant if they already have a far more efficient power source.
Perhaps the machines don't need it, but its like the difference between having central heating in your house and sitting down in front of a crackling wood fire. ;)

So, humans as a power source is just more cozy? :)

Roy Batty
2006-Feb-07, 07:50 PM
Smith caught the traitor on the way out, yes, but there's no way Smith could have gone past the interface into the human part of the traitor, nor could the interface have been used (especially unplugged!) to direct the traitor's actions or muscle movements. The ship's computer, sure. The biological brain? No way. If the machines had that capability, Smith would have been all over Morpheus like white on rice for the Zion codes, rather than waste time waxing eloquent about the nature of humanity in between bouts of torture.

For that matter, Neo would never have escaped the Matrix in the first place, 'cause Trinity would have been compromised and exploited the moment she'd been detected.

I don't see a problem.. Smith was the 'new Smith' enhanced by what Neo had done to him. He was taking over people left right & centre in the matrix (both real people & programs). Why couldn't he of made the transition to the real biological brain? I see no inconsistancy just a nice plot twist:cool:

Now the bit about Neo being able to sense/control the machines (even before he was blinded) is more difficult I grant you ;) I walked out of the 2nd film wondering the same about nested matrices. But overall I just think they took the eye off the plot ball in the last 2 films. I can put up with the 2nd for the action but found the 3rd just more of a let down. There, thats my 2 cents :)

Moose
2006-Feb-07, 09:23 PM
I don't see a problem.. Smith was the 'new Smith' enhanced by what Neo had done to him. He was taking over people left right & centre in the matrix (both real people & programs). Why couldn't he of made the transition to the real biological brain? I see no inconsistancy just a nice plot twist:cool:

Avatars of real people, actually. Client programs. Whereas the Oracle, the little girl, and Smith were more likely daemon-like processes. The "real people" were plugged into the matrix. Not literally running around in it.

For Smith to take over a Client program (and prevent logging out, or even killing the mind) is one thing. To take over a biological brain such that it functions, under full control of the invading host, even when the brain isn't plugged in is a whole other thing.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Brains aren't computers.

Roy Batty
2006-Feb-08, 01:26 AM
Well we will have to agree to disagree on that point then :) I don't have a problem with that one aspect of the plot. I guess it's because my suspension of belief is higher by that point in the films:D
I mean (not letting this die now:)), you've already got programs that can act indistinguishbly to the real people avatars as laid out in the film... if real people can make the transition to the matrix then why not the other way round?. Ah, oops, just forgot, you think its all a matrix so that logic doesn't apply does it? AAARRRGGHH, Count0;infinitelooperror;crashoverride...daisy daiszzzy reset! ;)

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-08, 08:07 PM
Of course there was. There are two incidents that point firmly to Zion not being the real world:

The traitor that gets possessed by Smith over the phone. If the traitor was biological (even augmented), Smith could not have done this.

When Neo is blinded, he realizes he can sense matrix code around him, both the environment and his antagonist, allowing him sight of a sort which permits him to defend himself.


Hmm. I'll have to see the third movie again. It would explain a lot of the silliness.


As for your being annoyed by such speculation, I deeply sympathize. It's got to be irritating to have those gangs of alien space monkeys who burst in and force you at banana-cannon-point to click on all these nasty links you don't like. At least, that's the only scenario that makes any sort of rational sense considering how often you participate in threads in which you insist upon vocally complaining about how such threads annoy you. No, it's got to be the alien space monkeys.

Point. I'll just stop clicking on links, then. Heck, why do I even stick around the forum, either?

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Feb-09, 07:21 AM
Of course there was. There are two incidents that point firmly to Zion not being the real world:

The traitor that gets possessed by Smith over the phone. If the traitor was biological (even augmented), Smith could not have done this.
Smith, by then, was a virus. The same thing he accused humans of being in the first movie, except he never quite realized it. With the sophisticated technology that interfaces directly with the human brain, I don't see much problem with a sophisticated virus figuring out how to "infect" a human brain.


When Neo is blinded, he realizes he can sense matrix code around him, both the environment and his antagonist, allowing him sight of a sort which permits him to defend himself.
This one is definitely harder to explain, but it was never explicitly stated that he was seeing "Matrix code". It certainly wasn't anything like he was seeing while in the Matrix. I'm going to pass this off as the necessary visual representation of a sort of "sixth sense", for the sake of the audience. (edit: Think Dare Devil. *shudder*)


Matrix-within-a-matrix is the only way to repair the continuity of these movies.
I don't think it's our job to fix what the Wachowski brothers broke. ;)

Faultline
2006-Feb-12, 08:09 PM
I just hate the way it all built up to something really cool, then the writers totally blew the last half of Revolutions.

I mean, are we to believe that the machine brain at the end actually felt gratitude? That it felt that since Neo got rid of Smith that it actually owed something to humanity? Hours earlier, it (the machine brain) was poised on the edge of wiping out every man, woman, and child in Zion for the third (?) time, but is it believeable that it changed its "mind" and decided to give its enemy (humanity) a break?

Sucks.

randycat99
2006-Feb-12, 10:02 PM
I was under the impression that the machine brain was simply making good on the deal struck with Neo. It wasn't gratitude, but purely a logic decision branch that a computer-like entity would simply follow dispassionately.

Faultline
2006-Feb-13, 12:58 AM
I was under the impression that the machine brain was simply making good on the deal struck with Neo. It wasn't gratitude, but purely a logic decision branch that a computer-like entity would simply follow dispassionately.

What incentive does the computer have to uphold the deal once Neo was done? It has everything to gain from carrying out its original (and costly) plan to exterminate Zion again. It has everything to lose by pulling out at the brink of winning.

Totally illogical.

Kesh
2006-Feb-13, 03:25 PM
The incentive is that humanity and machines can start cooperating to rebuild, rather than warring constantly for eternity. Instead of wasting resources on Zion & chasing down "rebels," they can work with humans to find a solution to their common problem: survival.

SolusLupus
2006-Feb-13, 03:41 PM
The incentive is that humanity and machines can start cooperating to rebuild, rather than warring constantly for eternity. Instead of wasting resources on Zion & chasing down "rebels," they can work with humans to find a solution to their common problem: survival.

I mean, that's all good, in that "throwing flowers" hippy way, but look at it with cold, machine logic. Logically, the people you just decided to "spare" at the last minute have had several people they've cared about die at your hands. Logically, this is the same race that you've kept as slaves for a very long time. Logically, they are not going to trust you, and you shouldn't trust them. That's what I'd say if I was boss, at least.

The machines lose nothing in eradicating the rebels. They stand to lost a lot if they misplace their trust in a vain attempt at hippy-ism.

Kesh
2006-Feb-13, 07:14 PM
And, logically, they set themselves back significantly by wiping out and starting the same cycle again. They've essentially been stagnating for however many iterations of Zion have existed.

I think the machines recognized that they cannot advance in their current state. It's not hippy-ism, it's practicality. One can't keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting to survive in perpetuity.

Eradicating the rebels means locking themselves into the same cycle again. They lose significantly by maintaining the status quo. In computer terms, they would willingly be subjecting themselves to an infinite loop.

Faultline
2006-Feb-13, 09:27 PM
The incentive is that humanity and machines can start cooperating to rebuild, rather than warring constantly for eternity. Instead of wasting resources on Zion & chasing down "rebels," they can work with humans to find a solution to their common problem: survival.

If that is the intention, it didn't appear that way in the movie. I don't buy it because nothing about any of the machine's behavior makes it appear the least bit interested in mutual survival. IT survived N generations of Zion so far, it can survive again and again.

kzb
2006-Feb-15, 06:51 PM
At least Matrix I had the unexpected twist. Matrixes (Matrices ?) II and III were the most over-hyped bunches of drivel ever.

Matrix I did have the doorways turning into computer display numbers, which was ridiculous.

Mellow
2006-May-03, 02:18 PM
I have to say that I have not heard a convincing explanation of Neo disabling the sentinels(?) near the end of Reloaded. with the exception of a matrix within a matrix. ..... anyone?

SolusLupus
2006-May-03, 02:25 PM
I'd think it would be psionics, personally. Or "divine power". It would fit the whole "messiah" bill.

Mellow
2006-May-04, 07:11 AM
The "messiah" bit doesn't work for me in that I think Neo's messiah abilities are related to the Matrix environment only.

Roy Batty
2006-May-04, 10:59 AM
Neo, through learning how to control the Matrix, has had his brain transformed into a super EMP emitter, so he's now an emphead. Makes perfect sense to me:D

James_Digriz
2006-May-05, 12:06 AM
For all those who watched all 3, did you spot any discrepancies in the whole story?

It pretty much ended with one. Neo becomes a God in the Matrix. The next two were just exercises in FX and coeography.

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-May-05, 03:20 AM
The "messiah" bit doesn't work for me in that I think Neo's messiah abilities are related to the Matrix environment only.
Yeah, but... that's wrong. When trying to rationalize a movie universe, you can't go ignoring things that exist within that movie universe; just like the real world. To say that "Neo's messiah abilities are related to the Matrix environment only" blatantly ignores the "fact" that he exhibited powers outside of the Matrix.

The question, though, is still, "How did he do it?"

Unfortunately, I think people get themselves all bent out of shape by insisting that the answer must be explicitly possible in the real world. It's a sci-fi/fantasy story. Period. You might as well wonder about Gandalf and, really, the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy.

If the Matrix-within-a-Matrix hypothesis is the answer, then the first two movies were pretty worthless. In fact, the entire trilogy would have been pretty useless, because there's no "real" resolution...

Gerrsun
2006-May-08, 04:51 PM
Yes, but the W Brothers's managed to follow a very successful method of making money.

Want me to tell you what that method is?

I'll tell you in my next post, which you'll have to buy for 10 dollars.

Gerrsun
2006-May-08, 04:53 PM
Ok, here is what the W Brothers did.....

Well then NEO.......KABOOM.........and then they........BANG BANG BANG BANG.....until they.....WHOOOOSH.....DRIP...DRIP....DRIP.......an d then she......WOAHHHHH.



Still dont understand?


Well my next post, also available for 10 dollars, will be SURE to explain everything.

Gerrsun
2006-May-08, 04:55 PM
Ok. A lot of people die and things explode and then there's a sunset?


Make sense?


No?


Well I tried.


Maybe a lot of other little posts in other forums might help. They arent as expensive though...


:P