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Rift
2003-Feb-25, 10:51 PM
ACK

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/rocketry_security_020325.html

Glom
2003-Feb-25, 10:55 PM
A shame. Rockets are fun.

They don't mention anything about British laws so I don't know how restrictions round these parts are but they're probably more stringent anyway.

I particularly liked the link (http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/apollo11_020717.html) to the Saturn models. If I had the money, I'd be very interested. The Saturn V was truly magnificent.

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-25, 10:58 PM
On 2003-02-25 17:51, Rift wrote:
ACK

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/rocketry_security_020325.html



I find that most upsetting. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif I propose that we start an online petition.

sacrelicious
2003-Feb-25, 11:05 PM
inside every boy scout beats the heart of a terrorist /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

g99
2003-Feb-25, 11:06 PM
That really sucks. One of my favorite hobbies is making rockets out of anything i can find around the house and betting my friends and family who can make one go the highest. You would be surprised how high a paper rocket with a plastic nosecone can go. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


It will be a sad day when we can't do that anymore.

SpacedOut
2003-Feb-25, 11:11 PM
"I am told that the ATF claims that the primary or common purpose of a rocket propellant is to explode. A rocket propellant is not designed or intended to explode," Enzi said.

The ATF must have witnessed some of my efforts in Jr. High. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

On a serious note, I hope this gets ironed out, I learned a lot in the couple of years I was into Model Rockets.

[edit @#$% bbcode]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpacedOut on 2003-02-25 18:12 ]</font>

Glom
2003-Feb-25, 11:13 PM
Rockets were the answers to the limitation of the gun. After a gun gets too big, the energy tends to vaporise the projectile.

If I remember correctly, in your constitution, it states that everyone has the right to a gun. Therefore, it could be argued that everyone has the right to a rocket.

In Britain, guns were outlawed following the Dunblane massacre. You can belong to a gun club provided you have a license and follow some strict regulations. A similar compromise should be done with rocketry. Licenses, authorised rocket clubs would cut the balance between freedom to engage in the hobby and maintaining homeland security.

Zap
2003-Feb-25, 11:16 PM
Well I do understand their reasoning for possibly banning model rockets. But I have to agree, its a really fun thing to do. The worst part is when it lands on a hot viper and you get some unwelcome fines to pay. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (that statement was not made from past experience...well actually...)

Rift
2003-Feb-25, 11:25 PM
Well, besides from being lots of fun, it's a great way to get older kids and teenagers interested in science.

My brother HATED science, until he became a model rocket addict.

I do hope it gets ironed out, or there goes another tool teachers can use to get kids into science... :/

Josh_imported
2003-Feb-25, 11:54 PM
It's just plain absurd, and an indication of the paranoid climate these days. What doesn't have a potential to be used as a weapon? Will we be banning scalpels from biology classes? Or zinc and HCl from chem classes? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

I grew up building model rockets too. They are a great tool for sparking enthusiasm in science and math. I can remember spending hours working on shaping the balsa wood fins, and playing with different designs, trying to figure out what shapes and configurations would get the rocket to go higher or faster.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Josh on 2003-02-25 18:55 ]</font>

Dickenmeyer
2003-Feb-25, 11:54 PM
You rocket fans ought to check out the book BACKYARD BALLISTICS by William Gurstelle. It contains information on building a couple of rockets out of household materials, as well as several other interesting "devices" sure to scare the bejeezus out of the neighbors. All in the name of science and education in the field of physics of course. Imagine if you will the "Cincinnati Fire Kite"....

Colt
2003-Feb-26, 12:19 AM
This is complete crap. I (not being a normal teen, but still..) can make a rocket out of almost anything, with or without model rocket engines and put a warhead on it. Not saying that I have or would ever do this. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif What the ATF said, that rocket engines are explosive, would mean that as soon as you ignited the engine the whole thing should go boom. Rockets are more akin to a lighter, a really big lighter. -Colt

Captain Kidd
2003-Feb-26, 02:09 AM
Out where I grew up my uncle use to let model rocket clubs use one of his fields (10-15 years ago). Couple hundred acres, flat as a pancake and no trees (pretty good for eastern side of middle Tennessee). Then the FAA sent a cease and desist, apparently the more powerful rockets were getting into the flight path of one of the approaches to Nashville International (woo one flight a week to Canada makes it ‘international’ /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif ) and were freaking out some of the pilots.

Colt
2003-Feb-26, 03:24 AM
I would be freaked out too, seeing a Saturn V fly past. -Colt

kilopi
2003-Feb-26, 04:54 AM
On 2003-02-25 18:16, Zap wrote:
Well I do understand their reasoning for possibly banning model rockets.
Can you explain it to me? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Cloudy
2003-Feb-26, 04:57 AM
If I remember correctly, in your constitution, it states that everyone has the right to a gun. Therefore, it could be argued that everyone has the right to a rocket
----

Yes, the American constitution does say that. But it does not mention either guns or rockets specifically. It mentions "Arms" or weapons. The constitution grants individuals the right to own weapons. Just what kind of weapons are meant, and what qualifies as a weapon, have always been open to debate. To seriously argue for 2nd ammendment protection, rocket fans would have to say that their rockets were made to be weapons! This would be ironic, to say the least.

But what matters in the US legal system is not what the constitution actually says, but how the supreme court interprets it.

The supreme court, in recent times, has interpreted the "right to bear arms" as a COLLECTIVE right. Essentially, it means the states have the right to their own self defense forces or "militias". Most states do have "militias" - we call them the national guard. I, and many Americans, think this interpretation is flawed. Yet that is what the supreme court says, so that is what we have to go with for now.

frenat
2003-Feb-26, 01:36 PM
I can see how some rockets could be a problem for flight paths. Check out the maximum altitude for this three stage model (http://www.estesrockets.com/products/product259.html). Although they list it in feet and meters and the meters are a decimal point off (you don't suppose they work for NASA do you?)

Laser Jock
2003-Feb-26, 01:47 PM
On 2003-02-26 08:36, frenat wrote:
I can see how some rockets could be a problem for flight paths. Check out the maximum altitude for this three stage model (http://www.estesrockets.com/products/product259.html). Although they list it in feet and meters and the meters are a decimal point off (you don't suppose they work for NASA do you?)


Those things can really get up there. I once put a C5-3 (very high thrust but short duration for heavy rockets and is not recommended for light-weight rockets) in a Yankee (http://www.estesrockets.com/products/product161.html). There was a puff of smoke on the launch pad and it was gone. It went up so fast that we never saw it again.

heliopause
2003-Feb-26, 10:13 PM
The level of paranoia in this country is almost unbearable. I'd better start learning the words to "O, Canada."

I had planned on introducing a young friend of mine to model rocketry this summer. Instead of being engrossed in a wonderful hobby that can open a young mind to the world of science, I guess we'll just have to sit inside our duct-taped house and shudder in terror like our government wants us to.

liglats
2003-Feb-26, 10:29 PM
Got to sympathise here - it sounds pretty unfair to have a pretty innocent hobby outlawed.

Speaking as someone who has lived in the UK all his life and has seen first hand the damage that a truck load of IRA explosives can do to a city centre I can understand laws to prevent terrorists getting explosives. However terrorists tend to prefer to use explosives of a quantity and power that you can't normally get from your local hobby shop.

tracer
2003-Feb-26, 11:16 PM
Here in sunny California, it's already illegal to shoot of model rockets practically anywhere without reams of bureaucratic permits.

They still sell model rockets in the hobby stores, though.

roidspop
2003-Feb-27, 03:43 AM
Thank goodness Big Bubba is on the job. Tens of millions of model rocket motors have been fired over the years; if we don't put a stop to it now, somebody might get hurt!

I wonder how this amazing piece of legislation ("sniff, sniff! Say, I think you got some legislation on yer shoe") would deal with us lawless renegade types who like to build our own motors? How many years in a Federal prison for being in possession of sugar and potassium nitrate?

Let's hear it for the red, white and ker-blooie.

Colt
2003-Feb-27, 06:58 AM
All hail the Congreve rocket!..and the rockets red glare.. (http://ns.netmcr.com/~ambro/rockets.htm) -Colt

Argos
2003-Feb-27, 12:58 PM
I have foreseen that. Next step: they will end up prohibiting airmodels. And then they will forbid telescopes. We donīt want such dangerous things in the hands of civilians, right?

(And I thought 21st century to be the age of enlightenment...). Whoīll stop those hawks? Bill Clinton, where are you???

Argos
2003-Feb-27, 12:59 PM
On 2003-02-25 17:58, Laser Jock wrote:
I propose that we start an online petition.


I second this wholeheartedly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Argos on 2003-02-27 08:05 ]</font>

Argos
2003-Feb-27, 01:02 PM
And this is from Ben Franklin:

"The ones who trade their freedom for a little security, donīt deserve freedom nor security".

darkhunter
2003-Feb-27, 08:22 PM
On 2003-02-27 08:02, Argos wrote:
And this is from Ben Franklin:

"The ones who trade their freedom for a little security, donīt deserve freedom nor security".


Agreed. There are easier (and probably cheaper) and "safer" ways to build bombs without using model rocket propellent.

If we stifle to ability to learn about rocketry with model rockets, how are we going to have the youth of today and tommorow learning about and choosine careers is space and other aero- and astro- dynamics--video games?

Zap
2003-Feb-27, 08:27 PM
On 2003-02-27 15:22, darkhunter wrote:
If we stifle to ability to learn about rocketry with model rockets, how are we going to have the youth of today and tommorow learning about and choosine careers is space and other aero- and astro- dynamics--video games?



Agree. Probably video games, books, online resources etc. But its still more fun if you get to actually "do" something to help with career. Lauching model rockets are so fun, it would really suck to see the pastime taken away from us.

liglats
2003-Feb-27, 10:15 PM
Prediction...

There are a number of amateur rocketeers trying at the moment to get their rocket into orbit. my predictions are...

1. within 10 years an amateur will have sent a payload on at least one full orbit of the earth.

2. The amateur in question will have started out using Estes finest as a child and simply expanded their horizons.

3. The rocket fuel will have a composition not too dis-similar to the rocket motors that are currently being banned.

And most importantly...

4. The winning design may not be the prettiest, but it will have been built by the person that successfully manages to get all the permits, insurance and other red tape out of the way. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

SeanF
2003-Feb-27, 10:21 PM
On 2003-02-26 08:36, frenat wrote:
I can see how some rockets could be a problem for flight paths.


You know, I've never actually done any model rocketry (although I've always thought it looked like fun). Considering that my current house is round about one mile from the end of the runway at the local airport, you think they'd have a problem with me launching model rockets from my front yard? Them there planes is awful low when they go over my house . . .

g99
2003-Feb-27, 11:24 PM
To launch rockets we went to the middle of a baseball/soccer field. To avoid drift we used a long ribbon inplace of a chute so it would just come down semi-slowly instaed of floating down 500 ft. away. I still have lost many, but they were homemade so i didn't care. But thay sure are a blast (blast get it!!! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) to use.

Kaptain K
2003-Feb-28, 01:47 PM
The actual Ben Franklin quote is:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".

I remember it because I used it as my sig for a while.

darkhunter
2003-Feb-28, 05:40 PM
On 2003-02-27 15:27, Zap wrote:


On 2003-02-27 15:22, darkhunter wrote:
If we stifle to ability to learn about rocketry with model rockets, how are we going to have the youth of today and tommorow learning about and choosine careers is space and other aero- and astro- dynamics--video games?



Agree. Probably video games, books, online resources etc. But its still more fun if you get to actually "do" something to help with career. Lauching model rockets are so fun, it would really suck to see the pastime taken away from us.



Agreed--but knowing from a book about balancing the forces of thrust and aerodynamics, and actually building something that you can see the effects are two different things.

Anylising why your rocket crashed would have more of your attention than a problem in a text book.

It's not that I have anything against books and reading (I read as much as I can, and own several textbooks (the earliest a solid geometry book from about 1944). But in many feilds, doing something is worth a thousand pictures...

edit: spelling (I said you are a rocket.... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif )
_________________
Words define reality, but they can't alter it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkhunter on 2003-02-28 12:47 ]</font>

Hale_Bopp
2003-Mar-01, 05:26 AM
And what about rocket engines in physics classes? There is a device you can use to attach a rocket enging to a force sensor. Setting off the rocket engine produces a neat force versus time graph and you can calculate impulse. Guess I need a special permit to do this now /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

Vermonter
2003-Mar-01, 03:58 PM
Wasn't there a fellow out in the Mid-West that was trying to launch his own rocket into space? I know the FAA was very worried about the whole deal, but he was going about and getting all the needed permits and such.