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servantx
2006-Feb-13, 06:26 AM
Please read this Ancient Eygptian text, Eygptians were great in astronomy and they were very aware of the sun's movements.

Papyrus Anastasi IV 1279 BC "The sun it has come to pass riseth not...winter is come instead of summer...the hours are disordered."

The "retrograde" of planets cannot explain the rising of the sun from another place......

From the Egyptian tomb of Horemheb "Harakhte, only god, king of the gods; he rises in the west, he sends his beauty.."

Ra-Harakhte (Horus of the two horizons) This horus was identified with Ra and the daily voyage of the sun from horizon to horizon. The two deities combined to become Ra-Harakhte. He was represented as a falcon or a falcon-headed man wearing the solar disk and double crown or the uraeus and the atef crown.

That means the sun rises from the west before a possible shift of rotation.

Now the sun rises from the east.
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs...question14.html


We know that there is a magnetic north-south pole shift.

But the question is, have earth ever change the direction of rotation. If it does, was there earthquakes, floods, major changes on the lands of this planet?

Mendel
2006-Feb-13, 12:43 PM
P

Have the rotation of earth changed before?


Yes, If I recall correctly, the rotation slows down ever so slightly all the time, eventually earth should get tidally locked towards the moon... But this will take billions of years to complete, by which time we will have other problems...



But the question is, have earth ever change the direction of rotation. If it does, was there earthquakes, floods, major changes on the lands of this planet?

Depends on how you define the change of direction of rotation. The rotation axis itself seems to rotate a bit making seasons shorter and longer, but this too happens very, very slowly.

As for the kind of effect you're seeking, sudden 180 degree change in the direction of rotation... no, there's no signs of such a huge even ever occuring, particularly not during the written history of mankind. I can't properly understand the kind of energies but I know that I wouldn't want to be involved in such an event...

Suffice it to say though, that when such massive bodies as planets are rotating with speeds sufficient to make equatorial regions move almost 500 meters a second and then not only grind to halt but to also start moving in the opposite direction, you better watch out for incoming objects because earth just stopped and you kept moving!

Earth quakes? Earth rip-aparts more like...

JimTKirk
2006-Feb-13, 03:32 PM
Please read this Ancient Eygptian text, Eygptians were great in astronomy and they were very aware of the sun's movements.

Papyrus Anastasi IV 1279 BC "The sun it has come to pass riseth not...winter is come instead of summer...the hours are disordered." <snip>

Do you have a reference link so we can look at the original hieroglyphics and translation?

Thanks!

servantx
2006-Feb-13, 11:40 PM
Sorry I cannot find the original hieroglyphics.

Originally I got the text from this site:
http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/
http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/sidereal.html

You can try to ask the author of that page if he have to original text. His contacts is at the bottom of that page

It also appeared in Immanuel Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision (1950)"
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/JNHDA/wic.htm

The original "Worlds in Collision" text
http://www.apollonius.net/velikovsky.html


But I got the translation of Plato's Politicus (Statesman)
http://ethics.sandiego.edu/books/plato/politicus/plato_politicus.htm

The following quote is from Plato's Politicus
"Str. No, not that; but another part of the story, which tells how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus."

servantx
2006-Feb-14, 01:55 AM
The Papyrus Ipuwer states: "the earth turned upside down" and "the land turns round (over) like a potter's wheel." End of this line 8 and beginning line 9. Right to left.

Original Eygptian text
http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/upsidedown.html

What happen if earth rotates in the same direction but the entire pole moved 180 degrees? It will make everything reversed include the sunrise position of the sun???

Wolverine
2006-Feb-14, 03:23 AM
Cultural mythologies are certainly interesting, but I'd recommend against reading anything deeply into them. In this case, the sheer amount of energy that would be required to stop or reverse Earth's rotation would yield intensely catastrophic results. Perhaps someone more motivated than I could undertake the necessary calculations (there are pertinent examples with accompanying math listed on this page (http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/flipaxis.htm)), but suffice to say it would effect the end of all life on the planet and a great deal more.

Magnetic polar reversals are another matter (http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html), and well-supported by evidence.

servantx
2006-Feb-14, 04:34 AM
Cultural mythologies are certainly interesting, but I'd recommend against reading anything deeply into them. In this case, the sheer amount of energy that would be required to stop or reverse Earth's rotation would yield intensely catastrophic results. Perhaps someone more motivated than I could undertake the necessary calculations (there are pertinent examples with accompanying math listed on this page (http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/flipaxis.htm)), but suffice to say it would effect the end of all life on the planet and a great deal more.

Magnetic polar reversals are another matter (http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html), and well-supported by evidence.



Thank you very much for the links.

In the last paragraph of this link:
http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/nmp/reversals_e.php

"Many authors have pointed out that the dipole part of the magnetic field has been weakening during historic times, and that if the present trend continues, the dipole field will go to zero in roughly 1500 years. Some people take this to mean that we are entering a reversal. Although this possibility cannot be discounted, many investigators believe that the trend will not continue and that the field will regain its strength, as it has many times in the past."

What can happen on the crust, tide, and atmosphere when the dipole field go to zero after 1500 years?

01101001
2006-Feb-14, 04:50 AM
What can happen on the crust, tide, and atmosphere when the dipole field go to zero after 1500 years?

Nothing much. It's just the magnetic field reversing (with associated deep, deep, deep core material -- that is always on the move some way). Change is normal.

NASA: Earth's Inconstant Magnetic Field (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm) (cited above by Woverine):


Reversals take a few thousand years to complete, and during that time--contrary to popular belief--the magnetic field does not vanish. "It just gets more complicated," says Glatzmaier. Magnetic lines of force near Earth's surface become twisted and tangled, and magnetic poles pop up in unaccustomed places. A south magnetic pole might emerge over Africa, for instance, or a north pole over Tahiti. Weird. But it's still a planetary magnetic field, and it still protects us from space radiation and solar storms.

servantx
2006-Feb-14, 05:24 AM
Nothing much. It's just the magnetic field reversing (with associated deep, deep, deep core material -- that is always on the move some way). Change is normal.

NASA: Earth's Inconstant Magnetic Field (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm) (cited above by Woverine):

Thank you for your reply.

Was this magnetic field reversing causes the Eygptians' problem on their astronomy calculations in the past?

Also, During the thousand years of reverse of magnetic pole, will the change make compass navigation around the world difficult like it was in Bermuda Triangle? (I know that planes and ships use compass...)

Finally, so far I know that there are magnetic pole, physical geographical pole, and the celestial pole/ERS Reference Pole (IRP)

During the magnetic pole reverse, will it have any effect on celestial pole rotation?

01101001
2006-Feb-14, 05:51 AM
Was this magnetic field reversing causes the Eygptians' problem on their astronomy calculations in the past?
Yeah, if it had happened then, it would have messed up their compasses -- if they had any. But the last reversal was a long time ago.


Also, During the thousand years of reverse of magnetic pole, will the change make compass navigation around the world difficult like it was in Bermuda Triangle? (I know that planes and ships use compass...)
Please present evidence for your assertion that compass navigation is difficult in the Bermuda Triangle.

Yes, it will be slightly more diffcult to navigate with a cheap compass and no information of the current state of the field. However, by that time, a decent compass (maybe even the cheapest ones) will no doubt be electronically tied to constantly updated data on where the multi-poles are, and what shape the field currently is. Heck, by that time, will compasses be anything but children's toys? That's almost the state of affairs now, what with the easy access to GPS.


Finally, so far I know that there are magnetic pole, physical geographical pole, and the celestial pole/ERS Reference Pole (IRP)

During the magnetic pole reverse, will it have any effect on celestial pole rotation?
I don't see how. The liquid core always swirls about and sometimes it swirls in a way that grossly affects the magnetic field of the planet. I don't know why that would affect the rotation of the much larger planet. Relax, and have faith in Earth's awesome angular momentum.

servantx
2006-Feb-14, 06:23 AM
Please present evidence for your assertion that compass navigation is difficult in the Bermuda Triangle.



It was well known that magnetic storm cause navigation problems in the past, but you are right, as long as they have the GPS it should be fine, just pray that there is no malfunction of electricity supply of the planes and ships in the storm......



QUESTION: Are there any unknown magnetic fields in Antarctica
similar to those supposedly found in the Bermuda Triangle? If so,
where is it located?

http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/antarctica/QA/computers/Directions,Time,ZIP



ANSWER from Todd Duncan on 1/4/95:
I don't know much about the supposed magnetic fields near the
Bermuda Triangle. You probably know that ships and airplanes can
use compasses for navigation. The Earth has an overall magnetic field
that roughly lines up with the north and south directions, so the
alignment of a magnetic compass needle allows ships to tell which
direction they are heading. (If you're interested in learning more about
magnetic fields, ask your science teacher how to set up an experiment
with a bar magnet, some iron filings and a compass to see how the
compass needle points along the field lines). I guess the suggestion
about the Bermuda Triangle is that if there is something like a large
iron deposit producing a strong magnetic field in the area, then a
compass might point somewhere other than north, so that you could
get lost because your directions are confused.


This site is NOT a scientisfic site, but it gives the picture as example below, and the story of "Christopher Columbus" should be true.
http://www.crystalinks.com/bermuda_triangle.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/bermudacompass.gif

Located on the 80th degree longitude, the Bermuda Triangle is one of the two areas on Earth where a compass will point at true north rather than magnetic north. This compass (in picture above) variation can be as much as 20 degrees, enough to throw one catastrophically off course. The other is the Devil's Sea.

Unusual events in that area date back in recorded history to 1493 and the first voyage of Christopher Columbus (14511506) to the New World.



Christopher Columbus wrote in his diary about this sea. In fact, it so fooled his crew that it almost led them to mutiny. There exists the possibility exists of never leaving this legendary sea, he wrote. Another fascinating feature he noted is its ability to draw things in from all over the Atlantic. Some even claim it to be the "catch-basin" of the Atlantic.

Columbus' crew was greatly disappointed when seaweed and land birds were sighted, but after a few days no land was to be seen. Soon after, Columbus wrote, My compass acts strangely. I will not report this to my crew because of their deep superstitions about the area. Days later, Columbus saw a large meteor fall from the sky. He wrote, A large ball of light has fallen from the sky. It is unsure whether he mentions this occurrence in awe, because of its great size, or in fright. Later on their journey, in that area, Columbus and several of his crew members sighted unexplained dancing lights on the horizon. They wandered around for over a week before finally sighting land.

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Feb-14, 07:06 AM
http://www.parascope.com/en/bermuda1.htm

From the account in Columbus's journal, it is thought that his compass's slight inaccuracy stemmed from nothing more than the discrepancy between true north and magnetic north. As for the lights, Columbus wrote of seeing "a great flame of fire" that crashed into the ocean -- probably a meteor. He saw lights in the sky again on October 11, which, of course, was the day before his famous landing. The lights, brief flashes near the horizon, were spotted in the area where dry land turned out to be.

http://bstar.net/bermudatriangle/geography.htm

Finally, a fascinating area called the Sargasso Sea resides to the east of the Triangle. Sitting in the middle of the Atlantic, it houses a few small islands and masses of clumped floating seaweed. A warm water current within it swirls clockwise, affecting the weather of the area, keeping it calm and steamy. Having little wind, this area greatly affects unpowered ships.

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Feb-14, 07:31 AM
It was well known that magnetic storm cause navigation problems in the past, but you are right, as long as they have the GPS it should be fine, just pray that there is no malfunction of electricity supply of the planes and ships in the storm...
Mariners are still thought in school how to navigate by the stars and the sun.
All you need is a clear sky. (And a good clock and of course a sextant.)

If there were any magnetic anomalies in the Triangle, we would know about it.
Ships sail through it all the time.

01101001
2006-Feb-14, 07:38 AM
SkepticWiki: Bermuda Triangle (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Bermuda_triangle)


It has been proposed that the South Atlantic Anomaly (http://www.ll.mit.edu/ST/sbv/saa.html) (a point of increased electromagnetic activity caused by a weak spot in the Earth’s magnetic field) could cause compass problems and other instrumentation failure on ships and airplanes. However, this area is quite far from the Bermuda Triangle. Interestingly, the Bermuda Triangle is one of the few places where magnetic north coincides with true north.

It turns out that the Bermuda Triangle is no more dangerous than other similarly storm-prone areas. Heavier traffic in the area corresponds to a higher number of disappearances. Moreover, insurance rates for shipping and travel within the Bermuda Triangle are no higher than anywhere else.
Skeptic's Dictionary: Bermuda Triangle (http://skepdic.com/bermuda.html)


Investigations to date have not produced scientific evidence of any unusual phenomena involved in the disappearances. Thus, any explanation, including so-called scientific ones in terms of methane gas being released from the ocean floor, magnetic disturbances, etc., are not needed. The real mystery is how the Bermuda Triangle became a mystery at all.

In short, the mystery of the Bermuda Triangle became a mystery by a kind of communal reinforcement among uncritical authors and a willing mass media to uncritically pass on the speculation that something mysterious is going on in the Atlantic.

servantx
2006-Feb-14, 11:31 PM
Thank you for your replies, guys. It helps a lot about it.

Now back to pole shift, as you explained to me magnetic pole shift does not affect the physical earth crust turning.

But would you please explain about the cause of this event in Egyptian text, "Papyrus Ipuwer". (not myth stories)

According to "Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt" by Margaret Bunson

Admonitions of Ipuwer, a text recording the observations and adages of a sage who described conditions in Egypt at the end of the Old or the Middle Kingdom.

Which means Papyrus Ipuwer was not a myth book but history recording.

In this translation:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/ipuwer.html
2:5-6 "Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere." 7:21 "... there is blood throughout all the land of Egypt."
2:8 "Forsooth, the land turns round like a potter's wheel."
2:10 "Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed."


http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/ipuwer.gif
"the earth turned upside down" and "the land turns round (over) like a potter's wheel." End of this line 8 and beginning line 9. Right to left.


Original photo of the text:
http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/Ipuwer8.gif

What was happening out there in Egypt at that time?

Also, I heard something called the "Occult Science" which have dealt with Astronomy. Should I be aware of these things?

Wolverine
2006-Feb-15, 12:11 AM
servantx, please be sure to review our forum rules (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=564845#post564845) -- we have rather strict guidelines pertaining to copyright issues and the hotlinking of images. I've edited two of your posts above accordingly, where noted.

aurora
2006-Feb-15, 12:20 AM
What was happening out there in Egypt at that time?


Sounds like a major earthquake to me. There are a number of plate boundaries and major faults in that part of the world.

As others have pointed out, there is no way it could have been a reversal of the Earth's rotation.

servantx
2006-Feb-15, 02:01 AM
servantx, please be sure to review our forum rules (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=564845#post564845) -- we have rather strict guidelines pertaining to copyright issues and the hotlinking of images. I've edited two of your posts above accordingly, where noted.

Thank you Wolverine, understood.

cjl
2006-Feb-15, 03:46 AM
I can't imagine it would be much more than a major earthquake. The sheer amount of energy that would be required to reverse the earth's rotation is staggering, and although it could be done (just look at Venus), it could not be done in a way that wouldn't completely sterilize the planet and wipe out ALL life.

Quantum_Raider
2006-Feb-15, 03:58 AM
The egyptian middle kingdom was roughly between 1991 BC and 1648 BC.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Kingdom_of_Egypt

Meanwhile close by on Santorini ...

Current opinion based on radiocarbon dating indicates that the eruption occurred between about 1650 and 1600 BC. These dates, however, conflict with the usual date from archaeology, which is between about 1500 BC and 1450 BC.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini

This is a good reason for the following:


2:5-6 "Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere." 7:21 "... there is blood throughout all the land of Egypt."

2:8 "Forsooth, the land turns round like a potter's wheel."

2:10 "Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed."

"the earth turned upside down" and "the land turns round (over) like a potter's wheel."

There'd by plenty of "the earth turned upside down" with a bang like that going off nextdoor.

As aslo mention in the wiki link above:


Suggestions have also been made that the eruption of Thera and volcanic fallout inspired myths of the Titanomachy in Hesiod's Theogony and calamities of the Admonitions of Ipuwer of the Middle Kingdom of Egypt.

01101001
2006-Feb-15, 04:02 AM
But would you please explain about the cause of this event in Egyptian text, "Papyrus Ipuwer". (not myth stories)
What event?

Wikipedia: Ipuwer papyrus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_papyrus)


The theme of this work is generally taken to be either a lament inspired by the chaos of this period, or as historical fiction depicting the fall of the Old Kingdom several centuries earlier, or possibly a combination.
The Admonitions of Ipuwer (http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm)


It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period.

On the other hand, Miriam Lichtheim, following S. Luria, contends that the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer' has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme "order versus chaos."
M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I, p.150
Egyptian Literary Compositions of the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period (http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/literature/midegsummaries.html)


Early Egyptological commentators interpreted the composition as a direct reflection of events in the First Intermediate Period, but such literal political reading has generally since been replaced by greater appreciation of the literary effect and intent of the contrast between ideal order and lamented chaos. The relation between literature and political history is almost impossible to assess, in the absence of precise datings for literary compositions, and this is highlighted by the Lament of Ipuwer: large foreign population built up along the eastern Delta fringe in the early to mid Thirteenth Dynasty, and therefore the Lament would have quite different impact on a reader in the late Twelfth and a reader in the late Thirteenth Dynasty - unfortunately, this does not help directly to date the composition.

The document appears to be a copy of the writings of someone describing events as they happened 400 years earlier -- or, according to Lichtheim, has no basis at all in history.

Given that it describes the river being full of blood (how?) and the hearts of animals weeping (how?), its statment that "the land turns around as does a potter's wheel" is certainly elligible to be considered yet more metaphor or hyperbole of a creative writer.

That fits so much better with the known laws of physics, too.

servantx
2006-Feb-15, 04:06 AM
I can't imagine it would be much more than a major earthquake. The sheer amount of energy that would be required to reverse the earth's rotation is staggering, and although it could be done (just look at Venus), it could not be done in a way that wouldn't completely sterilize the planet and wipe out ALL life.

From the Egyptian tomb of Horemheb "Harakhte, only god, king of the gods; he rises in the west, he sends his beauty.."



Ra-Harakhte (Horus of the two horizons) This horus was identified with Ra and the daily voyage of the sun from horizon to horizon.

That means the Egyptian said the sun rose from the west before a possible shift.

Let's assume if that was true and the sun rose from the west once.

If what was written in the Tome of Horemheb is true, then is there any other possible theory/theories other than "reverse of orbit" that can explain "the sun rose from the west"? eg, retrograde, error cosmic model on Copernican model, etc.????

cjl
2006-Feb-15, 04:15 AM
Hmm.

The precession of the earth couldn't cause it
The rotation certainly hasn't changed
The orbit around the sun has definitely not changed
I don't see any explanation other than that
1) that was mistranslated, and should read "east"
or
2) it didn't happen, and the writer was wrong


Based on some quick calculations, the rotational momentum of the earth is 7.066x10^33(kg m^2)/s
That is a slightly ridiculous number, and it also means that the rotation of the earth would take a tremendous amount of force to reverse.
In order to reverse the rotation over a period of 24 hours (and achieve the same rotational velocity in the opposite direction), it would take a continuous torque of 1.41333x10^34Nm. This is a force of 2.2159x10^27N applied at the surface of the earth (at the equator), in the exact opposite direction of the original rotation. This force is about 221.6 million, quadrillion metric tons. That is a phenomenal amount of force, and there is no way (at least that I can think of) that one could apply that kind of force without destroying all life on earth. If you can think of an event that could supply this kind of force, please tell me, because I certainly cannot.


Also, anyone out there PLEASE check my calculations. They were only quick calculations, and I'm pretty sure they are right, but there is still the chance that I messed something up. Thanks.

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-15, 04:48 AM
Hmm.

The precession of the earth couldn't cause it
The rotation certainly hasn't changed
The orbit around the sun has definitely not changed
I don't see any explanation other than that



Based on ... my calcul..atins che. c. k..... y o ur... Pms Thanks.


TONIGHT your Private messages

cjl
2006-Feb-15, 05:01 AM
LOL - done.

Thanks - I didn't notice them at first.

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Feb-15, 07:30 AM
The First Intermediate Period has recently been associated with a hundred
year drought, which might have killed a large part of the population.
Hell on Earth indeed.

Jens
2006-Feb-15, 09:21 AM
If what was written in the Tome of Horemheb is true, then is there any other possible theory/theories other than "reverse of orbit" that can explain "the sun rose from the west"? eg, retrograde, error cosmic model on Copernican model, etc.????

No. The only reasonable explanation is that the words for "west" and "east" changed during that period.

Or if you want to be imaginative, I suppose it's possible that a giant UFO disguised to look like the sun was flying around the earth from west to east.

In any case, what would "the land turns around as does a potter's wheel" even mean? We already know the earth is rotating at tremendous speed, just like a potter's wheel I suppose. So it already is doing that. And we don't realize it. So the only reasonable explanation is to assume that the writer meant that "things are really out of whack."

Fram
2006-Feb-15, 09:50 AM
Bad translation perhaps? The only sites I can find the "West" translation on are religiously inspired ones. I would like to know their source.
This site (http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/religion/harakhte.htm) gives a much more neutral translation:

Harakhte! Great god, lord of heaven, lord of earth, who cometh forth from the horizon. He illuminateth the Two Lands, the sun of darkness, as the great one, as Re.
Problem solved, next!

iantresman
2006-Feb-15, 02:15 PM
Hmm.

The precession of the earth couldn't cause it
The rotation certainly hasn't changed
The orbit around the sun has definitely not changed
I don't see any explanation other than that
1) that was mistranslated, and should read "east"
or
2) it didn't happen, and the writer was wrong

I don't think we should be too hasty to rule out any possibilities. By exploring them, we may make other discoveries that are relevant. For example, rather than say that the Earth's rotation has not changed, better to say that there is no known mechanism, which is not the same as suggesting that it couldn't happen.

For example, lets assume that the Earth's rotation did change. The question then becomes "how". As you have shown from your maths, it looks as if it could not have changed rotation in the manner suggested.

So I'll suggest that IF the Earth changed rotation, then an alternative mechanism is a so-called "tippee-top" inversion. See here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation.

From what I recall, if the Earth was a perfect sphere, then an imperfect hill located in the upper lattitudes would be sufficient for centrifugal force to cause the Earth to become unstable and rotate.

Of the course the Earth has an equitorial bulge which stabalises it, but still, the force required for a Tippee-top inversion is much less than stopping the Earth rotating... and bringing it back up to speed.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

cjl
2006-Feb-15, 02:26 PM
That would still take a ridiculous amount of external force. According to that linked website, the friction with the surface is what provides the necessary force to make that "tippee top" flip over. There is no external source with the earth (that I can see) that would give you this force.

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Feb-15, 02:40 PM
I don't think we should be too hasty to rule out any possibilities. By exploring them, we may make other discoveries that are relevant. For example, rather than say that the Earth's rotation has not changed, better to say that there is no known mechanism, which is not the same as suggesting that it couldn't happen.[Snip!]
Let me paraphrase the above:

I don't think we should be too hasty to rule out any possibilities. By exploring them, we may make other discoveries that are relevant. For example, rather than say that geese do not lay golden eggs, better to say that there is no known mechanism, which is not the same as suggesting that it couldn't happen.
Do you see why your argument doesn't make any sense? :)

As for me, I'm going to wait for the Ipuwer Papyrus to be released on carpet! :dance:

Nereid
2006-Feb-15, 03:35 PM
I don't think we should be too hasty to rule out any possibilities. By exploring them, we may make other discoveries that are relevant. For example, rather than say that the Earth's rotation has not changed, better to say that there is no known mechanism, which is not the same as suggesting that it couldn't happen.

For example, lets assume that the Earth's rotation did change. The question then becomes "how". As you have shown from your maths, it looks as if it could not have changed rotation in the manner suggested.

So I'll suggest that IF the Earth changed rotation, then an alternative mechanism is a so-called "tippee-top" inversion. See here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation.

From what I recall, if the Earth was a perfect sphere, then an imperfect hill located in the upper lattitudes would be sufficient for centrifugal force to cause the Earth to become unstable and rotate.

Of the course the Earth has an equitorial bulge which stabalises it, but still, the force required for a Tippee-top inversion is much less than stopping the Earth rotating... and bringing it back up to speed.

Regards,
Ian TresmanThat sure is interesting Ian.

To take another perspective (also relevant to servantx's reading of the ancient texts) - how much of today's physics would have to be re-written?

Or, looked at another way, suppose you do find some mechanism for a rotation reversal of the Earth, a few thousand years ago. An easy test of the idea would be "what other, easily calculated, effects would this have had - or have today?"

Thirdly, there's always the 'independent evidence' route: is something similar recorded in contemporaneous written records (not only Egyptian)? Do ice sheet/glacier, lake deposit, tree ring, deep sea mud, etc records show anything unusual at that time? What about any solar eclipse records (e.g. records of such eclipses before this supposed event and immediately after)?

iantresman
2006-Feb-15, 04:48 PM
Do you see why your argument doesn't make any sense? :)

Sure I can see why some people may feel it does not make sense. But as I've mentioned elsewhere before:

"If it can't be done, it interests me." -- Joseph Newman.
"You can never solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that created the problem in the first place" -- Albert Einstein.



To take another perspective (also relevant to servantx's reading of the ancient texts) - how much of today's physics would have to be re-written?

Thinking often has to be changed, not so much the physics. Having said that, I am reminded of the following:


Second law of thermodynamics "broken" (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2572)
And numerous broken theories (eg. Dirty snowball comets)



So if the Earth's rotation did change, we can't dismiss the tippee-top inversion theory, just because the maths does not work for the standard "slowing down the rotation" theory.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Nereid
2006-Feb-15, 05:44 PM
[snip]
To take another perspective (also relevant to servantx's reading of the ancient texts) - how much of today's physics would have to be re-written?Thinking often has to be changed, not so much the physics. Having said that, I am reminded of the following:


Second law of thermodynamics "broken" (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2572)
And numerous broken theories (eg. Dirty snowball comets)



So if the Earth's rotation did change, we can't dismiss the tippee-top inversion theory, just because the maths does not work for the standard "slowing down the rotation" theory.

Regards,
Ian TresmanIndeed.

On the observation side, amassing a wealth of good results, from as many independent sources as possible, would be - I'm sure you'll agree - a good idea.

On the theory side, developing a possible mechanism that involves minimal changes to the well-established physics of today (in a nutshell, GR and quantum theory, likely via the 'classical' limits of both - Newton, classical electromagnetism, etc), a wealth of easily tested predictions, along with a solidly internally consistent model - I'm sure you'll agree - would be a good idea.

In the absence of either of these, aren't there millions of perfectly interesting, challenging, and potentially mind-blowing other (easier?) problems to work on?

IOW, no one is discouraging servantx (or anyone else) from 'having a go' by simply pointing out some practicalities? Or do you think otherwise?

Oh, and while in 'health warning' mode, anyone embarking on an ATM journey of this kind might like to ponder the statistics relating to the success of ATM theorists who lack a good, basic, grasp of modern physics - anyone care to guess what those stats are?

(Of course, on the observation side, all sorts of people without formal physics training have made good discoveries; in astronomy, amateurs have contributed quite significantly).

iantresman
2006-Feb-15, 07:03 PM
In the absence of either of these, aren't there millions of perfectly interesting, challenging, and potentially mind-blowing other (easier?) problems to work on?

Of course, but we all have our own interests. I think that part of the appeal of certain subjects, from catastrophic Velikovskian Earth inversions, to alternative cosmologies, is that science is not able to handle them, and that other disciplines are required to solve the puzzle.

Science is not able to resolve certain issues because they are untestable. It will never be able prove that King Arthur existed, whether I am in love, or how the Egyptians built the pyramids. And rule number one, never say never.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Feb-15, 07:16 PM
[Snip!]I think that part of the appeal of certain subjects, from catastrophic Velikovskian Earth inversions, to alternative cosmologies, is that science is not able to handle them, and that other disciplines are required to solve the puzzle.[Snip!]
Carpets to the rescue! :lol:

aurora
2006-Feb-15, 07:35 PM
Well, an impact with another Planet would do it, but of course that would also turn the entire earth molten and kill all living creatures. Including bacteria. And probably create a set of rings around the Earth too, which would be cool to look at if someone was on another planet nearby.

Gillianren
2006-Feb-15, 07:39 PM
Hey, Fram, thanks for the improved translation. The thing I was worrying about was the whole "one god" thing, given that the only "one god" in Egyptian history was, of course, Aten, declared the one god during the reign of Akhenaten and promptly reduced to part of a pantheon again during the reign of his successor, Tutankhamen. I may not know heaps about Egyptian mythology, but I do know that much.

Fram
2006-Feb-15, 08:37 PM
Hey, Fram, thanks for the improved translation. The thing I was worrying about was the whole "one god" thing, given that the only "one god" in Egyptian history was, of course, Aten, declared the one god during the reign of Akhenaten and promptly reduced to part of a pantheon again during the reign of his successor, Tutankhamen. I may not know heaps about Egyptian mythology, but I do know that much.

Well, the "original" translation had the quite difficult gem "Only god, king of the gods", which is a bit hard, of course, as that would make him basically king of himself and nothing else ;)

Fram
2006-Feb-15, 08:41 PM
Of course, but we all have our own interests. I think that part of the appeal of certain subjects, from catastrophic Velikovskian Earth inversions, to alternative cosmologies, is that science is not able to handle them, and that other disciplines are required to solve the puzzle.

Science is not able to resolve certain issues because they are untestable. It will never be able prove that King Arthur existed, whether I am in love, or how the Egyptians built the pyramids. And rule number one, never say never.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

No, certain subjects are unscientific, and you need handwaving and other kinds of magic to give the impression that they could have happened nonetheless.
Which other, non scientific discipline is needed to solve the puzzle of the existence of King Arthur or of the making of the pyramids (as far as that is a mystery, becauses we have a pretty good idea of many of the techniques).
Which other, non scientific discipline would you use to solve the puzzle of a supposed change of the direction of the setting and rising of the sun in historic times?

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Feb-15, 09:32 PM
Science is not able to resolve certain issues because they are untestable. It will never be able prove that King Arthur existed, whether I am in love, or how the Egyptians built the pyramids.
I think you're wrong on all counts.

servantx
2006-Feb-15, 11:56 PM
Bad translation perhaps? The only sites I can find the "West" translation on are religiously inspired ones. I would like to know their source.
This site (http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/religion/harakhte.htm) gives a much more neutral translation:


Harakhte! Great god, lord of heaven, lord of earth, who cometh forth from the horizon. He illuminateth the Two Lands, the sun of darkness, as the great one, as Re.

Problem solved, next!

What is "the sun of darkness, as the great one"?????

Jens
2006-Feb-16, 02:07 AM
So I'll suggest that IF the Earth changed rotation, then an alternative mechanism is a so-called "tippee-top" inversion. See here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation.


I'm just a layperson, so I can't claim to totally understand this, but isn't the stuff about tippee-top inversion for a top spinning in a situation where there is an "up" and "down"? Would a top spinning in space without any constraint (i.e., the ground) do that? My impression, and I'd be surprised if I'm wrong, is that the tipping is something special that happens when a spinning body is constrained in some way.

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-16, 04:19 AM
A gravitational tsunami from a local nova event about the time of the last ice age could cause the apparent reversal of sun for as long as the wave was ridden. Orion's nebulae still contains mysteries to me. The fact that so many O Stars in the belt are so far and so visible to us makes me wonder if something didn't blow through us from that direction and wasn't the Great Pyramid aligned with some direction in Orion? (No need to refute or consider- I'm just marking a space here so I can return to your interesting discussions.)

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Feb-16, 04:52 AM
What is "the sun of darkness, as the great one"?????
Who cares? There is nothing of scientific value in this papyrus. We are not even certain if the author is writing of contemporaneous events or of events from four hundred years earlier, so there is probably no historical value in it either. Maybe there is some literary value in the papyrus, but the cultural context is (mostly) lost, so the literary value is slight.

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Feb-16, 06:18 AM
So I'll suggest that IF the Earth changed rotation, then an alternative mechanism is a so-called "tippee-top" inversion. See here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation.

From what I recall, if the Earth was a perfect sphere, then an imperfect hill located in the upper lattitudes would be sufficient for centrifugal force to cause the Earth to become unstable and rotate.
Right, but... umm... we're talking about a 180 degree reversal here, no matter your explanation. A bulge significant enough to cause the crust of the entire planet to shift would "balance out" at the equator.


Of the course the Earth has an equitorial bulge which stabalises it, but still, the force required for a Tippee-top inversion is much less than stopping the Earth rotating... and bringing it back up to speed.
Sure, but doing it in a 3-4 thousand years? That would require one hell of "hill"...

servantx
2006-Feb-16, 07:32 AM
This page is interesting :)

NASA said "CHANGES IN THE EARTH'S ROTATION ARE IN THE WIND"
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0210rotation.html

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Feb-16, 08:10 AM
Found the following bit of info from Wikipedia's short rotational energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy) article:


Earth has a large amount of rotational energy: at its equator, it moves at the speed of ~450 m/s, hence 100 kJ/kg. On average, if the Earth were homogeneous, 40% of that, hence 40 kJ/kg. Since the density is larger in the centre, the average specific rotational energy is a little less: roughly 33 kJ/kg, i.e. 2 1029 J (5 1013 Mt TNT).
I'm not sure how accurate it is, though.


This page is interesting :)

NASA said "CHANGES IN THE EARTH'S ROTATION ARE IN THE WIND"
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0210rotation.html
Definitely, but I don't see how it supports your claim...

iantresman
2006-Feb-16, 10:16 AM
I'm just a layperson, so I can't claim to totally understand this, but isn't the stuff about tippee-top inversion for a top spinning in a situation where there is an "up" and "down"? Would a top spinning in space without any constraint (i.e., the ground) do that? My impression, and I'd be surprised if I'm wrong, is that the tipping is something special that happens when a spinning body is constrained in some way.

Correct. But I can think of a couple of options that provide a torque, though it may not be enough:

Uneven distribution of mass on the Earth's surface, which I think is the Crustal Diplacement Theory (http://www.crystalinks.com/crustal.html) as put forward by Charles Hapgood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood)
External cosmic force, such as Velikovsky's passing celestial body, see

Geomagnetic reversals (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1978JPhA...11.2107W&amp;db_key=PHY&amp;d ata_type=HTML&amp;format=&amp;high=42ca922c9c04964), (1978) Peter Warlow. But see also: A dynamic objection to the inversion of the Earth on its spin axis (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1981JPhA...14.2503S&amp;db_key=PHY&amp;d ata_type=HTML&amp;format=) (1981) Slabinski, V. J., and also "Objections Overruled - A Reappraisal Of Earth Inversion Dynamics" (1989) David Salkeld in SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1989 (Vol XI) (http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/review/v1989/)

External cosmic force, such as Dr. Andre Danjon's observation that after a large solar flare, the length of the day changed, see: "Solar flares and changes in the length of day". C. R. Acad. Sci Ser. B; 249, 1959; 250, 1969.

I don't necessarily subscribed to any of these.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Nereid
2006-Feb-16, 01:26 PM
A gravitational tsunami from a local nova eventWhat sort of thing is this?
about the time of the last ice age could cause the apparent reversal of sunWhat does this mean? Reversal of what?
for as long as the wave was ridden. Orion's nebulae still contains mysteries to me.and how is this relevant?
The fact that so many O Stars in the belt are so far and so visible to us makes me wonder if something didn't blow through us from that direction and wasn't the Great Pyramid aligned with some direction in Orion? (No need to refute or consider- I'm just marking a space here so I can return to your interesting discussions.)I'm getting in some questions ahead of time (call it queue jumping)! :D

Nereid
2006-Feb-16, 01:32 PM
Correct. But I can think of a couple of options that provide a torque, though it may not be enough:

Uneven distribution of mass on the Earth's surface, which I think is the Crustal Diplacement Theory (http://www.crystalinks.com/crustal.html) as put forward by Charles Hapgood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood)
External cosmic force, such as Velikovsky's passing celestial body, see

Geomagnetic reversals (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1978JPhA...11.2107W&amp;db_key=PHY&amp;d ata_type=HTML&amp;format=&amp;high=42ca922c9c04964), (1978) Peter Warlow. But see also: A dynamic objection to the inversion of the Earth on its spin axis (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1981JPhA...14.2503S&amp;db_key=PHY&amp;d ata_type=HTML&amp;format=) (1981) Slabinski, V. J., and also "Objections Overruled - A Reappraisal Of Earth Inversion Dynamics" (1989) David Salkeld in SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1989 (Vol XI) (http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/review/v1989/)

External cosmic force, such as Dr. Andre Danjon's observation that after a large solar flare, the length of the day changed, see: "Solar flares and changes in the length of day". C. R. Acad. Sci Ser. B; 249, 1959; 250, 1969.

I don't necessarily subscribed to any of these.

Regards,
Ian TresmanIndeed.

And when you are ready to defend any of them, or any other, please say so.

As I'm sure all members of BAUT already know, the internet has hundreds, if not thousands, of webpages with all kinds of strange and curious claims and ideas.

This ATM section provides any BAUT member with the opportunity to present an astronomy or space ATM idea (not necessarily their own) and expose it to the gleeful and fervid attacks of other BAUT members (within the framework of astrophysics, etc). The best parts of this are the defences of the idea, by proponents.

Do we have any BAUT member who wishes to present a claim about the Earth's rotational axis having flipped, sometime between 5000 BC and 2000 BC (or maybe it was a bit later)?

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-16, 02:00 PM
What sort of thing is this?What does this mean? Reversal of what?and how is this relevant?I'm getting in some questions ahead of time (call it queue jumping)! :D


Nereid? You are always making me work harder. Thanks. Here's the mechanism but the imaginary event is all in my mind: http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LIGO_web/about/factsheet.html

aurora
2006-Feb-16, 04:16 PM
Sure, but doing it in a 3-4 thousand years? That would require one hell of "hill"...

Also, the Earth has a large moon. The articles I have read about the variations in Mars' inclination all say that Earth has less variance because of our Moon.

Jens
2006-Feb-17, 08:32 AM
Nereid? You are always making me work harder. Thanks. Here's the mechanism but the imaginary event is all in my mind: http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LIGO_web/about/factsheet.html

I understand in a way how you might think that. But whenever I read something like this, it makes me realize the danger of the use of analogy. People say "gravity waves," and so I guess it's understandable that people might naively think of the earth like a boat floating on an ocean with waves. And if the waves get too big, the boat might flip over, right? But it's totally wrong. Gravity waves are not like waves on the ocean. They're not a boundary between a heavier and lighter substance. It's just an analogy. And when we say the earth is "floating in space," it's not the same as the meaning of a boat "floating on the ocean." This isn't really aimed only at Fr. Wayne's post, BTW. It's something that seems to occur a lot. Like people assuming that because we say "the dark side of the moon," it is really dark in the sense that there is no light there.

So no, gravity waves would not make the earth tip over, and there is no need to add a keel (presumably hanging "down" from the South Pole?) to make sure that the earth keeps "upright."

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-17, 02:17 PM
...gravity waves would not make the earth tip over, and there is no need to add a keel (presumably hanging "down" from the South Pole?) to make sure that the earth keeps "upright."

Wowwee. Earth tip over? Did I say that? Not that I recall. I did say that such a wave could make it appear that the earth's rotation had apparent reversed itself. Please note "apparent" - meaning to an earth man's point of view. There are numerous mechanisms that could jolt the earth enough to make even a Cro-Magnon man like me sit up and notice a temporary shift in the Sun's shadows. Here's another:
"This is a once-in-a-lifetime event," said Rob Fender of Southampton University in the UK. "We have observed an object only 20 kilometers across [12 miles], on the other side of our galaxy, releasing more energy in a tenth of a second than the Sun emits in 100,000 years."

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/bright_flash_050218.html So maybe, a whole list of events could altered temporarily our sun's shadows being monitored by ancient sky- watchers. Do you not think such "waves" could make "sun move back 10 steps"? (using a biblical metaphor).

Chineson
2006-Feb-21, 08:30 AM
I think in the dinosaur era, the earth must rotate at a higher speed because if the dinosaur lives in our era, its gravity will restrict its growth. Now we can see such giant animals in the sea, if not in the sea, whales can not grow so large. Land animals can not grow so large.

Jens
2006-Feb-21, 08:40 AM
I think in the dinosaur era, the earth must rotate at a higher speed because if the dinosaur lives in our era, its gravity will restrict its growth. Now we can see such giant animals in the sea, if not in the sea, whales can not grow so large. Land animals can not grow so large.

If the earth was spinning fast enough to change the gravity, you would only find big dinosaurs near the equator. I think that fossils are found at fairly high latitudes.

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-01, 03:09 AM
Hello all:

I am the author of sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/index.html It seems my theory is being discredited because of the enormous forces and counter forces to move and control the sun and earth. However, we are talking about the God of the Bible, the Creator of the Universe. Several years ago I stumbled upon the theory that God moved the sun 180 degrees with earth's rotation for the sun to stand still in the sky for Joshua and earth flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and shifted 70 degrees clockwise to keep in the same season. Then exactly half a year later or a year later or multiples thereof, the sun moved 180 degrees around the earth again and earth flowed out of the reverse orbit and shifted 70 degrees counterclockwise and continued as if nothing had happened. This theory is abundantly proven by astronomical records at that time, mostly in China - just read of all the sun miracles on my page and their exact dates given by the Chinese match the exact dates given in the Bible. This is the only way the sun could stand still in the sky and there be no physical evidence left. This theory deals with real physical problems the way God must deal with them. I know I am right on this and have abundantly proven it to those who will look into it on my webpage.

Andrew Bennett

01101001
2006-Mar-01, 03:55 AM
This theory deals with real physical problems the way God must deal with them. I know I am right on this and have abundantly proven it to those who will look into it on my webpage.
Welcome to the science-oriented BAUT Forum.

You might want to understand rule 12: Politics and Religion of Rules For Posting To This Board (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32864), before you continue.

I predict you're gonna have a tough time defending the scientific validity of your hypothesis without just saying, "Because God is omnipotent."

What else do you have?

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-01, 07:49 AM
Rule 12
B) Focused, polite discussion of concepts such as creationism and "intelligent design" which bear direct relevance to astronomy and science, for the purposes of conversing about and addressing misconceptions.

I am addressing the biggest misconception of Astronomy and the Bible, Joshua 10:12, where the sun stood still in the midst of heaven for about a whole day. The Hebrew reads that the sun stood still from the half of heaven. That is, the sun moved 180 degrees with earth's rotation to stand still at noon for 12 hours - a day is 12 hours of daylight. If the sun moved 180 degrees earth must continue in its forward momentum in a reverse orbit of the sun. The link to my web page is http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/index.html Please take the time to read and analyse it.

Andrew Bennett

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-01, 10:05 AM
That's all based on the assumtion that the Bible is a historically and observationally accurate account of past events, which is a topic that's very much a no-no here.

Fram
2006-Mar-01, 10:18 AM
I don't care if he starts from that assumption (as long as it is not promoted here), I care about the physical model, and I don't see one on that website (which is very hard to read due to the layout (not the colours, luckily). Basically, your arguments seems to be that the Earth has reversed its orbit, and rereversed it some time later (with some speeding up to compensate). Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Now, have you any idea what effect that would have on the Earth itself and all its inhabitants? The deceleration and acceleration would have to be enormous.

iantresman
2006-Mar-01, 10:34 AM
I don't care if he starts from that assumption (as long as it is not promoted here), I care about the physical model, and I don't see one on that website (which is very hard to read due to the layout (not the colours, luckily). Basically, your arguments seems to be that the Earth has reversed its orbit, and rereversed it some time later (with some speeding up to compensate). Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Now, have you any idea what effect that would have on the Earth itself and all its inhabitants? The deceleration and acceleration would have to be enormous.

If reversal was due to a so-called "tippe-top" inversion (see here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation), then the PRIMARY rotation of the Earth is unchanged, and a smaller SECONDARY acceleration/deceleration would do the trick.

What effect would it have on the Earth? If it took place over a one month period, the acceleration/deceleration would not be detectable. But secondary effects would be catastrophic. These are recorded in ancient texts and histories which I suspect are conveniently inadmissable here. If you head over to Sacred Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/), you can search for some of references.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-01, 10:48 AM
If reversal was due to a so-called "tippe-top" inversion (see here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation), then the PRIMARY rotation of the Earth is unchanged, and a smaller SECONDARY acceleration/deceleration would do the trick.
Umm... How does this apply to an object whose rotational axis is not parallel to the force of gravity of another object, as it is in you link?

iantresman
2006-Mar-01, 11:58 AM
Umm... How does this apply to an object whose rotational axis is not parallel to the force of gravity of another object, as it is in you link?

Obviously there would be no effect if both bodies were in the same celestial equatorial plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_equator), but I think there could be an effect if both bodies were in the ecliptic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic) (due to the Earth's equatorial bulge).

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Fram
2006-Mar-01, 01:40 PM
If reversal was due to a so-called "tippe-top" inversion (see here (http://www.physik.uni-augsburg.de/~wobsta/tippetop/index.shtml.en) for a description and animation), then the PRIMARY rotation of the Earth is unchanged, and a smaller SECONDARY acceleration/deceleration would do the trick.

What effect would it have on the Earth? If it took place over a one month period, the acceleration/deceleration would not be detectable. But secondary effects would be catastrophic. These are recorded in ancient texts and histories which I suspect are conveniently inadmissable here. If you head over to Sacred Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/), you can search for some of references.

Regards,
Ian Tresman


I don't see what a tippe-top reversal has to do with a reversal of orbit. Of course you can describe the axis going from north-south through east-west to south-north in a certain timeframe. How would this reverse the orbit? What would kept us from falling into the sun at the time of the reversal (speed wrt the sun is zero)?
And I don't care what the texts describe, I want a more or less scientific calculation of what these effects would be and how catastrophic they would be. Sacred texts is not the kind of reference I'm looking for, as that says nothing about the possibility of such a reversal of orbit and the effects it would in reality have on us.

iantresman
2006-Mar-01, 01:52 PM
I don't see what a tippe-top reversal has to do with a reversal of orbit. Of course you can describe the axis going from north-south through east-west to south-north in a certain timeframe. How would this reverse the orbit? What would kept us from falling into the sun at the time of the reversal (speed wrt the sun is zero)?
And I don't care what the texts describe, I want a more or less scientific calculation of what these effects would be and how catastrophic they would be. Sacred texts is not the kind of reference I'm looking for, as that says nothing about the possibility of such a reversal of orbit and the effects it would in reality have on us.

I got the impression from the first post, that we were discussing a change "That means the sun rises from the west".

I don't think that a reversal of the Earth's orbit around the Sun will do this. However, a change in the Earth rotation around its primary axis (ie the North-South pole) might. As might a tippe-top-style inversion.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Fram
2006-Mar-01, 02:02 PM
I got the impression from the first post, that we were discussing a change "That means the sun rises from the west".

I don't think that a reversal of the Earth's orbit around the Sun will do this. However, a change in the Earth rotation around its primary axis (ie the North-South pole) might. As might a tippe-top-style inversion.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

I was replying to Andrew4236, hence the confusion.

I don't see how a tippetop style inversion could happen to the earth (the shape and balance of the Earth is quite different); but even if it did happen, the forces involved would be enormous. Looking at the animation, you'll see that you get a period of wild swings between the two more or less stable situations.

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-01, 08:30 PM
There's also another issue with the "tippe-top" idea. From what's been posted here, the only claimed oddity is that the Sun and stars rose and set opposite of what they do now. However, if the Earth did "flip over", there should be some mention of stars previously known to be to the north "now" being to the south, and entirely new stars becoming visible. And, over the course of, as you suggested, Ian, a month, this would be extremely noticable.

You'd also have to explain how this could happen twice within a short period of time, mere thousands of years ago, and why that's the only time in recorded history it's ever been known to happen.

Nereid
2006-Mar-02, 06:14 PM
I must be missing something here ...

In the case of these rotation inversion, revolution inversions, ... what leads proponents to think that the only detectable effect (to us, today) is in the writing of some individual Homo sap.s (we won't even go into how come only a tiny subset of those doing any writing at the time saw fit to write about it)?

What about ocean circulation? Wind systems? Weather patterns? How could these rotation (or whatever) changes happen with no effect on the tides? The Earth's magnetic field (we can 'see' what it was, in historical times, from volcanic rocks which cooled back then)?

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-03, 05:15 AM
Hello again:

Joshua's long day from China: The Exodus was April 4 1279 BC the same day Jacob entered Egypt in Sothis year 430 April 3 2348 BC the same day of the week Friday the same day of the Egyptian lunar month 14th, 40 years in the wilderness to enter the promised land spring 1239 BC.
If in the month of Adar the sun stands still at noon a bad omen.
"King Wan dreamt that he was clothed with the sun and the moon. A phoenix duck sang on mount K'e. In the first month of spring, on the 6th day, the five planets had a conjunction in Fang. Afterwards a male and female phoenix went about Wan's capital with a writing in their beaks, which said: 'The emperor of Yin has no principle, but oppresses and disorders the empire. The great decree is removed: Yin cannot enjoy it longer. The powerful spirits of earth have left it; all the spirits are whistled away. The conjunction of the five planets in Fang brightens all within the four seas.'"
Thus Adar is February. The first month of Chinese spring is February. The year must be 1238 BC. The day must be February 25 1238 BC because it is the 6th day of the moon. The sun standing still on Mount K'e at sunset on China would be standing still at noon on Israel. The 6th day moon would be overhead at sunset in China, just having risen at noon in the east on Israel. Jupiter and Saturn would be in Taurus. 12 hours later after the sun and planets had moved 180&deg; with earth's rotation to stand still in the sky Jupiter and Saturn would appear in Fang when the sun finally set and the stars came out. Basically Jupiter and Saturn would appear a little left of Fang and Mars Venus Mercury to the right near the setting sun at least in the same quadrant.

Now we get to the wind. "The powerful spirits of earth have left it; all the spirits are whistled away."
Next we look for a sun miracle half year later or year later or multiples thereof for the sun to move 180 degrees again and earth flow out of the reverse orbit and reorient and continue as if nothing had happened. The half year or year date is necessary for earth to shift back the same amount to stay in the same season. February 25 is 35 days before the spring equinox March 31 1238 BC, thus earth must shift 70 degrees clockwise to stay in the same season. A simple test - move your globe pointing to the sun to the other side of the sun, now twist the base of the globe 180 degrees and earth is in the same season. 90 days before the spring equinox earth must shift 2X90 180 degrees. Thus February 25 2X35 70 degrees. Next we look for a sun miracle half year later or year or years later to the date. We find an inscription on an oracle bone:

On the day 56 - 57 a great and violent wind, the moon was eclipsed, five planets flowed away.

The Chinese base their revised calendar on this as being a lunar eclipse the night between day 56 and day 57 April 14 1166 BC. However, the common chronology that was handed down by the Chinese fathers gives August 31 1238 BC as day 56 because the common chronology then was 72 years earlier. You can do the calculation too. The Chinese counted their days in cycles of 60 . Just keep counting days from August 14 1166 BC to August 31 1238 BC, use a calculator to multiply and add, to get day 56 again of cycle 60. Leap year is every four years back from 1 BC. We are looking for half a year, half an orbit. From the spring equinox this year we have March 20 to the autumn equinox September 23 187 days because earth travels slower in the summer half of its orbit. This is because earth's orbit is elliptical, nearer in winter and slower farther away in summer. February 25 to August 31 is 187 days exactly half an orbit. Thus earth can reorient 187 days later and leave no biological trace. And we have the strong winds again just as on the day of the first sun miracle.
I hope this in part answers your question. There was a seven year dust layer on Mount Kilamajaro corresponding to the seven year famine in Egypt of Joseph 2350 BC - 2345 BC. Pharaoh Unas of Egypt recorded this low Nile. Jacob entered Egypt on the second year of the famine 2348 BC. There was a sun miracle - the sun stood still - when Yao became emperor in the common chronology 2357 BC and there was a unicorn perhaps when the sun moved back in 2350 BC. Joseph interpreted pharoah's dream in 2357 BC and was made governor over Egypt perhaps on the day of this sun miracle. The Chinese recorded earthquakes and their rivers sometimes dried up when there was a sun miracle. When the sun stood still and Yao was made emperor of China everything burnt up. Perhaps because rain was diverted to Africa for the seven years of plenty of Joseph in Egypt.
I do not know how God kept everything intact when he shifted the earth however gravity is a possibility. Gravity pulls equally on every atom thus earth could be pulled around without major side affects other than these strong winds.

Please read further http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/index.html

Andrew Bennett

Jens
2006-Mar-03, 06:34 AM
Hello again:
I do not know how God kept everything intact when he shifted the earth however gravity is a possibility. Gravity pulls equally on every atom thus earth could be pulled around without major side affects other than these strong winds.


This is where you get into problems with this kind of speculation. You don't need to explain everything, because if you assume an omnipotent being, then you don't need to explain anything! Just as a little example, I can claim right now that some creator created the universe three seconds ago, and that nothing existed before then. Of course, she created all the physical evidence and our memories perfectly crafted, so there is no way for anyone to either prove or disprove this. OK. Possible? Certainly. But is it an interesting idea? No.

With your theory, it seems to me that you're trying to put something together based on written evidence, not physical. So it seems like an archeological problem, not a physical one.

Fram
2006-Mar-03, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the effort Andrew, but no, this doesn't answer anything. Perhaps you need to think a bit more about gravity and winds. The only way your idea works is by miracles defying all natural laws, and that discussion has no place on this board, unless you could show us good physical evidence (not ancient texts that may be interpreted in certain ways) for some of it. E.g. if you can give us some references to the layers of dust on Kilimanjaro and want to discuss what phenomenon can have caused them, then I think that can be done here. If you the want to integrate the results of that discussion in your website to strengthen your case (if that would be the result in your view), that's your business.

Furthermore, you have some strange things in your texts, e.g.
February 25 is 35 days before the spring equinox March 31 1238 BC,By my reckoning, there are 34 days between them (1238 isn't a leap year), and 35 days later would be April 1st. But anyway, since when does the spring equinox happen on March 31? I thought it was on or about March 21?

(Oh, Jens, I wouldn't consider this an archaeological problem, except for the references to dust layers and so on perhaps, but more of an historical one, and most of all a theological one. I don't think many archaeologists and historians will be interested in this "problem".)

MadConflux
2006-Mar-03, 09:53 AM
Cultural mythologies are certainly interesting, but I'd recommend against reading anything deeply into them.

So why Rule #11?


Due to the contentious nature of these subjects, forum participants are strongly advised to avoid discussing religious blah...

Is this not a science forum after all?

Fram
2006-Mar-03, 11:19 AM
So why Rule #11?

Is this not a science forum after all?

More precisely, an astronomy forum. Religion is not a science, and religious texts are no science books. Furthermore, religion is a topic that can very easily led to overheated debates, so that's the main reason why it is forbidden (just like politics). An exception is made to make an astronomical discussion of religion related topics, like "is it scientifically possible to make the sun appear to stand still for 12 hours" or so. But then, the goal is to describe in a scientific way if it is possible, under what circumstances, with what consequences, and what evidence we might find for it. Discussing the role of your preferred deity in this event is forbidden, just like saying "there is no God" is forbidden.

MadConflux
2006-Mar-03, 12:24 PM
OK, I think I understand, but I will quit just after saying this: that, as scientists, shouldn't we be opposed to "cultural mythologies" of ALL varieties?

"God" doesn't come into this - it's impossible to prove or disprove "Its" existence.

I'm talking about religions, not "God".

OK, I'll end it here. Sorry! :doh:

Fram
2006-Mar-03, 01:10 PM
OK, I think I understand, but I will quit just after saying this: that, as scientists, shouldn't we be opposed to "cultural mythologies" of ALL varieties?

"God" doesn't come into this - it's impossible to prove or disprove "Its" existence.

I'm talking about religions, not "God".

OK, I'll end it here. Sorry! :doh:

I don't think I understand your point here. Which "cultural mythologies" aren"t we opposed to (discussing here)? Everyone here can believe in the reality or mythology they prefer, but to discuss such a belief system is not done here. Now, there may be theories and hypotheses here that we discuss that turn out to be completely wrong (and all of them will probably at least turn out to be partially wrong or incomplete), but they are based on observations, natural laws, evidence, logic, ... and can be tested and adjusted or discarded as necessary. If what you or anyone wants to discuss has those properties, then you're welcome to discuss it here (note: I'm no moderator, these are my interpretations of the rules).

What could be discussed is why some non-scientific things may be discussed here (in Babbling and Small Media, mainly) and others may not. This is, in my understanding, because the two that are forbidden, religion and politics, are highly flammable and can the most easily lead to huge problems. Discussing literature or music may show great disagreements, but much less emotional involvement. If I don't like a masterpiece, so be it. Noone will consider me dangerous or so. But if I prefer racism, then people will consider me dangerous and be personally insulted (and rightly so).

To make this long diatribe shorter: the scientific aspects (astronomic mainly) of mythological and religious texts can be discussed in a scientific manner only, and the other aspects should be avoided, certainly when it is a "living" religion. A discussion of certain aspects of Grek mythology (which God was responsible for what) is less dangerous, I suppose.

Night G
2006-Mar-03, 08:08 PM
I hope this hasn't already been mentioned but it is my understanding that the Ancient Egyptians oriented their maps and navigation based upon the flow of the Nile which flows south to north. I this sense, "up" would have been south and inversed from our "modern" north-up orientation. South being up also places the rising sun on the "right" which also had significance to ancient people from the reagion. I Googled like crazy to find a solid reference for this but all I could find was a mention in passing in paper discussing something else. I also remember this being discussed on a documentary series by Dr. Bob Brier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Brier) where he mentioned this odd fact briefly. If this is true then I think it highly likely that the cardinal directions in this manuscript have been misinterpretted or mistranslated -- maybe.

01101001
2006-Mar-03, 10:19 PM
I hope this hasn't already been mentioned but it is my understanding that the Ancient Egyptians oriented their maps and navigation based upon the flow of the Nile which flows south to north. I this sense, "up" would have been south and inversed from our "modern" north-up orientation.
The Upsidedown Map (http://www.flourish.org/upsidedownmap/):
Egypt (Ancient): [...] they also thought that "up" was south because of the northwards flow of the Nile; rivers must flow "downwards". [ Source: email from Mark, who was told this by his history teacher ]
Uh, well that's a pretty weak citation.

Straight Dope: On maps, why is north always up? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_159.html)
The notion that north should always be up and east at the right was established by the Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy (90-168 AD). "Perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient for study if they were in the upper right-hand corner," historian Daniel Boorstin opines.
North-up probably wasn't usually used in Egypt at the time of the supposed reversal, well before Ptolemy established the convention.

01101001
2006-Mar-03, 10:30 PM
February 25 is 35 days before the spring equinox March 31 1238 BC,
Furthermore, you have some strange things in your texts, e.g.By my reckoning, there are 34 days between them (1238 isn't a leap year), and 35 days later would be April 1st. But anyway, since when does the spring equinox happen on March 31? I thought it was on or about March 21?

Heh, there was no month of February in 1238 BC. Nor a January.

Calendars through the ages: Early Roman calendars (http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-roman.html)


The Romans borrowed parts of their earliest known calendar from the Greeks. The calendar consisted of 10 months in a year of 304 days. The Romans seem to have ignored the remaining 61 days, which fell in the middle of winter. The 10 months were named Martius, Aprilis, Maius, Junius, Quintilis, Sextilis, September, October, November, and December. The last six names were taken from the words for five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. Romulus, the legendary first ruler of Rome, is supposed to have introduced this calendar in the 700's B.C.E.

According to tradition, the Roman ruler Numa Pompilius added January and February to the calendar. This made the Roman year 355 days long.

Night G
2006-Mar-04, 02:10 AM
According to Wikipedia (I know, but I'll take what I can get), the Turin papyrus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_papyrus) or Turin papyrus map is the oldest surviving map from Ancient Egypt and it depicts south as "up".

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-04, 04:30 AM
To answer a few questions:

"[7] Lonnie Thompson, professor of geological sciences at Ohio State found a layer containing dust in a 4000 year old ice core taken from Mount Kilimandjaro." at the head waters of the Nile.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/geography/nile.htm#rem7

"Unas (2381-2345 BC - according to The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, &#169;2000) was the last king of the fifth dynasty. Depictions along his causeway at Saqqara show the effects of famine."
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/the_end_of_the_old_kingdom.htm

The vernal equinox in 1238 BC was April 2, 36 days after February 25. The autumnal equinox in 1238 BC was October 5, 35 days after August 31. Thus Joshua's long day may rather be February 26 1238 BC.

Planetarium programs use the Julian calendar in dates BC. From 1 BC back every 4 years is leap year. This is different than our Gregorian calendar today. 1900 AD was not leap year etc keeping the vernal equinox March 20. In the Julian Calendar the vernal equinox advanced a day every 125 years because there was not this adjustment. Thus 1238 BC the vernal equinox was April 2, 13 days later than our March 20. The Julian calendar matched the Egyptian calendar. The Egyptian calendar had leap year July 22 every four years. The Egyptians also maintained a calendar of 365 days without leap year. This Sothis calendar started with the appearing of Sirius before the sun July 16 4236 BC where the year had backed up to July 16 again 1459 years later in 2777 BC. Then again the calendar had backed up to July 17 when Sirius first appeared before dawn 1320 BC. Thus April 3 2348 BC and April 4 1279 BC are the same Egyptian day counting back from the first appearing of Sirius before the sun July 16 and later July 17.
The Chinese calendar usually had the first month spring when the sun was in Aquarius which was about February. They used a lunar calendar, so the lunar month 45 days after the winter solstice was usually the first month of spring. In 1238 BC this would be February 20. The lunar month is 29.5 days not an even 30, so an extra day was added at times. So the sixth day of the month may be February 26 1238 BC. The Chinese used a 60 day numbering system for their days. So if the season and year are given say on an oracle bone then you know the exact date. Likewise lunar dates can be known if you know whether the calendar started in spring or winter. The years were kept track of in cycles of 60 also, so were very accurately maintained.

On most ancient maps, even on North American pictographs - I know of one local example, east is up.

Andrew Bennett

Nereid
2006-Mar-04, 05:17 AM
To answer a few questions:

"[7] Lonnie Thompson, professor of geological sciences at Ohio State found a layer containing dust in a 4000 year old ice core taken from Mount Kilimandjaro." at the head waters of the Nile.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/geography/nile.htm#rem7
[snip]And do we know where, in that 4000 year old ice core, this layer is? How many other layers there are? What techniques were used to date the layer? (And so on).

For the change proposed in this thread, one would expect pretty much global evidence, yes? What about ice cores from Himalayan ice cores? Andean? Alpine? those from the Rockies? Greenland? Antarctica? And how about lake-bottom muds? Deep sea deposits? ...

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-04, 05:42 AM
In answer:

The third marker is a visible dust layer in the ice cores dating back to about 4,000 years ago. Thompson believes this marks a severe 300-year drought which struck the region. Historical records show that a massive drought rocked the Egyptian empire at the time and threatened the rule of the Pharaohs. Until this time, Thompson said, people had been able to survive in areas that are now just barren Sahara Desert.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/kilicores.htm

The Pharaoh is Unas and the year is 2345 BC when the drought was the greatest in Egypt. I do not know how, but someone got the date right:

"Unas (2381-2345 BC - according to The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, &#169;2000) was the last king of the fifth dynasty. Depictions along his causeway at Saqqara show the effects of famine."
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/the_en...ld_kingdom.htm

Andrew Bennett

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-04, 09:47 AM
Sounds like local climate change more than planetary break-dancing...

...but that's just me.

Nereid
2006-Mar-04, 04:48 PM
In answer:

The third marker is a visible dust layer in the ice cores dating back to about 4,000 years ago. Thompson believes this marks a severe 300-year drought which struck the region. Historical records show that a massive drought rocked the Egyptian empire at the time and threatened the rule of the Pharaohs. Until this time, Thompson said, people had been able to survive in areas that are now just barren Sahara Desert.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/kilicores.htm

The Pharaoh is Unas and the year is 2345 BC when the drought was the greatest in Egypt. I do not know how, but someone got the date right:

"Unas (2381-2345 BC - according to The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, &#169;2000) was the last king of the fifth dynasty. Depictions along his causeway at Saqqara show the effects of famine."
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/the_en...ld_kingdom.htm

Andrew BennettSo there was a drought in "Egypt" at that time (maybe).

Remind me please - how does such a drought (assuming it existed) relate to the "[E]arth ever chang[ing] the direction of rotation"?

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-05, 03:30 AM
From the beginning of this thread:
"Harakhte! Great god, lord of heaven, lord of earth, who cometh forth
from the horizon. He illuminateth the Two Lands, the sun of darkness, as
the great one, as Re. "

Harakhte was the western setting sun to the Egyptians. As earth orbits the sun counterclockwise today the sun passes from west to east through the stars of the zodiac. When earth was in a reverse orbit of the sun the sun passed east to west throught the stars of the zodiac. Thus Harakhte has a double meaning during a reverse orbit of the sun.

My website never said earth changed the direction of rotation. It says the sun moved 180 degrees around the earth and flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and earth shifted on its axis to keep in the same season.

Tao the Great Luminant page 88 "Coming to the times of Yao, ten suns once appeared together, scorching the crops, killing trees and plants, so that the people had nothing to eat. Ferocious dragon like beasts, baboons with long teeth, monsters of the deep, gorillas or bears, great boars and pythons are hurtful to people. So Yao employed I to slay the baboons in the wastes of Ch'ou Hua and killed the monsters on the shore of the evil waters (of the barbarian north); be bound the evil beast that creates hurricanes in the marshes of Ch'ing Chiu; he shot the ten suns above and destroyed the dragon-like beast below; he cut down the python in T'ung Ting lake and captured the wild boars in the Mulberry forest. The people were delighted and placed Yao on the pedestal of the Son of Heaven (made him emperor)."

Yao was made emperor of China 2357 BC when the sun stood still, Yao employed an archer to shoot nine arrows at the sun and refrained and the sun moved again according to legend and Yao was made emperor. Joseph enterpreted the dream of Pharaoh of the seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine perhaps that day in 2357 BC when Joseph was made governor over Egypt. The years of famine then began in 2350 BC to 2345 BC. Yao recorded there was a unicorn in his seventh year. Unicorns were associated with the Feng bird the Chinese phoenix carrying the sun. Thus very possibly the sun moved 180 degrees back March 31 2350 BC and earth flowed out of the reverse orbit of the sun and reoriented. Then the seven years of drought.

Ovid's Phaethon: "The earth bursts into flame, the highest parts first, and splits into deep cracks, and its moisture is all dried up. The meadows are burned to white ashes; the trees are consumed, green leaves and all, and the ripe grain furnishes fuel for its own destruction...Great cities perish with their walls, and vast conflagration reduces whole nations to ashes.
The woods are ablaze with the mountains...Aetna is blazing boundlessly...and twin peaked Parnassus...Nor does its chilling clime save Scythia; Caucasaus burns...and the heaven-piercing Alps and cloud-capped Apennines.
He can no longer bear the ashes and whirling sparks, and is completely shrouded in the dense, hot smoke. In this pitchy darkness he cannot tell where he is or whither he is going.
Then also Libya became desert, for the heat dried up her moisture...The Don's waters steam; Babylonian Euphrates burns; the Ganges, Phasis, Danube, Alpheus boil; Spercheos' banks are aflame. The golden sands of Tagus melt in the intense heat, and the swans...are scorched...The Nile fled in terror to the ends of the earth...the seven mouths lie empty, filled with dust; seven broad channels, all without a stream. The same mischance dries up the Thracian rivers, Hebris and Strymon; also the rivers of the west, the Rhine, Rhone, Po and the Tiber...Great cracks yawn everywhere...Even the sea shrinks up, and what was but now a great watery expanse is a dry plain of sand. The mountains, which the deep sea had covered before, spring forth, and increase the numbers of the scattered Cyclades."
"Causing all things to shake with her mighty trembling, she sank back a little lower than her wonted place."
"If we are to believe the report, one whole day went without the sun. But the burning world gave light."

A change in weather would be expected when the sun moved around the earth. Herodotus wrote that the Egyptians experienced no change when the sun set in the east. God can control the weather. However, God also may have marked this severe drought with this sun miracle.

Hope this helps,

Andrew Bennett

Nereid
2006-Mar-05, 05:24 PM
From the beginning of this thread:
[snip]

Harakhte was the western setting sun to the Egyptians. As earth orbits the sun counterclockwise today the sun passes from west to east through the stars of the zodiac. When earth was in a reverse orbit of the sun the sun passed east to west throught the stars of the zodiac. Thus Harakhte has a double meaning during a reverse orbit of the sun.

My website never said earth changed the direction of rotation. It says the sun moved 180 degrees around the earth and flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and earth shifted on its axis to keep in the same season.From the OP:
have earth ever change the direction of rotationWhat, then, is the ATM claim being made in this thread?
[snip]

Yao was made emperor of China 2357 BC when the sun stood still, Yao employed an archer to shoot nine arrows at the sun and refrained and the sun moved again according to legend and Yao was made emperor. Joseph enterpreted the dream of Pharaoh of the seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine perhaps that day in 2357 BC when Joseph was made governor over Egypt. The years of famine then began in 2350 BC to 2345 BC. Yao recorded there was a unicorn in his seventh year. Unicorns were associated with the Feng bird the Chinese phoenix carrying the sun. Thus very possibly the sun moved 180 degrees back March 31 2350 BC and earth flowed out of the reverse orbit of the sun and reoriented. Then the seven years of drought.

[snip]

A change in weather would be expected when the sun moved around the earth. Herodotus wrote that the Egyptians experienced no change when the sun set in the east. God can control the weather. However, God also may have marked this severe drought with this sun miracle.

Hope this helps,And what do tree rings, ice cores (not just one), deep sea sediment cores, lakebed sediments, and so on, say?

You seem to be claiming a simultaneous, global phenomenon, so evidence will be found all over the world, yes?

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-05, 05:54 PM
Harakhte was the western setting sun to the Egyptians. As earth orbits the sun counterclockwise today the sun passes from west to east through the stars of the zodiac. When earth was in a reverse orbit of the sun the sun passed east to west throught the stars of the zodiac. Thus Harakhte has a double meaning during a reverse orbit of the sun.
Err... The Earth's orbit around the sun doesn't determine which direction the Sun travels in the sky; it's rotation does.


My website never said earth changed the direction of rotation. It says the sun moved 180 degrees around the earth and flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and earth shifted on its axis to keep in the same season.
I can't quite decipher what you're trying to say here. My first impression is that you're suggesting the solar sytem went from geocentric to heliocentric, but I can't be sure.

Eroica
2006-Mar-05, 06:17 PM
Daily growth rings in fossilized coral from the Devonian era (370 million years ago) indicate that the day was then about 22 hours long. Taking tidal braking into account, this agrees well with the current length of the day. So there is no reason to believe that there have been any catastrophic alterations in the rate of the Earth's rotation in the past 370 million years!

As for the tilt of the axis, the Neolithic passage grave at Newgrange in Ireland is an astronomically aligned monument: at Midwinter the rays of the rising Sun shine through a light-box above the entrance of the tomb and illuminate the burial chamber within. Measurements have confirmed that the alignment would have been nearly perfect in 3200 BC when the tomb was built (according to recalibrated radiocarbon analysis of buried remains). Since then, precession of the equinoxes has slightly offset the alignment. So there is no reason to believe that there have been any catastrophic changes in the Earth's axial tilt in the past 5200 years.

Anyone postulating a recent catastrophic change in either the Earth's rotation or its axial tilt must be prepared to postulate also that a second identical change took place which reversed the effects of the first one! I believe that Velikovsky might actually have made such a claim, but it's not one that need detain the scientifically literate.

Eroica
2006-Mar-05, 06:51 PM
Joshua's long day from China: The Exodus was April 4 1279 BC ... What about the Biblical reference that the Exodus took place 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple? That would put the Exodus around 1474 BC, which throws all your dates out of sync!



"King Wan ..." Who's he? I can't find him here (http://www.friesian.com/sangoku.htm#china-era).



Jacob entered Egypt on the second year of the famine 2348 BC. Exodus 12:40 has the Israelites in Egypt for 430 years; Galatians 3:17 has them in Egypt for 215 years. Where do you get a figure of 1100 years?



when Yao became emperor in the common chronology 2357 BC Written records in China only go back to the Shang dynasty (1500 BC ?), so Yao and his unicorns must remain in the realm of myth.


I do not know how God kept everything intact when he shifted the earth... You don't have to know: if your explanation for all of this is, "God did it", then you are talking miracles/magic, not science - in which case there hardly seems reason to continue this debate.

aries_4_5_48
2006-Mar-05, 07:18 PM
...in denouncing Egyptian text, one is placing zero value on the written word of a people who created structures that are beyond modern man's ability to reproduce. Common everyday 'horse sense' tells me if they could build pyramids they would certainly be able to record events they experienced. Another interesting aspect of the myth is the length of time they have endured unchanged, which indicates to me some degree of validity. Part of what I base this on is the short range of validity enjoyed by many, if not all, scientific theories...(ie each one is a 'lady in waiting' for her replacement) I personally do not worship at the alter of the Deists or of Science, but respect the need both fulfill in the creature we call the human being. One is based on faith, without which a human being cannot exist, be it in a god or in science, the other is based on what can be proven according to specified guidelines and defines what human beings call reality. Both being a necessity to life as we know it, it is incomprehensible to me why a common ground of mutual respect, each recognizing the merits of the other, cannot be found. I hope the people several thousand years in the future, assuming there are any, are kinder and more willing to give credit to our beliefs and accomplishments, than we are to our predessors....

Cl1mh4224rd
2006-Mar-05, 10:36 PM
Anyone postulating a recent catastrophic change in either the Earth's rotation or its axial tilt must be prepared to postulate also that a second identical change took place which reversed the effects of the first one!
...in such a way that it would appear as if nothing at all happened.


...in denouncing Egyptian text, one is placing zero value on the written word of a people who created structures that are beyond modern man's ability to reproduce. Common everyday 'horse sense' tells me if they could build pyramids they would certainly be able to record events they experienced.
That's like saying that denouncing the works of Percival Lowell about canals on Mars is placing zero value on anything else that occured or existed at the time.

Where do you get off making such an inane statement?


Another interesting aspect of the myth is the length of time they have endured unchanged, which indicates to me some degree of validity. Part of what I base this on is the short range of validity enjoyed by many, if not all, scientific theories...
Lots of "stories" have survived for quite a long time to be discovered later. How can we know that what was discovered was the sole record of events, or even widely agreed upon at the time, and not just a story?

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-06, 04:51 AM
To answer a few questions:
What about the Biblical reference that the Exodus took place 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple?
I Kings 3:1 "And Solomon made affinity with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and took Pharaoh's daughter, and brought her into the city of David, until he had made an end of building his own house, and the house of the LORD, and the wall of Jerusalem round about."
The Pharaoh Psusennes I "The Star the Appears in the City" reigned from this 1040 - 992 BC. (Then if Merneptah drowned in 1279 BC there is a space of 76 more years not ascribed to any pharaohs back from 1040 BC.) Further: "The part played by women in ancient Egypt had always been great, but at this juncture it was greater than ever. The inscriptions are abnormally communicative in the use of such epithets as 'King's Daughter', 'King's Great Wife'."
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn21.htm
1 Kings 9:16 "For Pharaoh king of Egypt had gone up, and taken Gezer, and burnt it with fire, and slain the Canaanites that dwelt in the city, and given it for a present unto his daughter, Solomon's wife."
1 Kings 6:1 "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD."
The Hebrew word for year is "shanah", Strongs 8138, also means two or double. The year began with spring and also with fall. Thus 480 doubled years is 240 years. Then 1279 - (480/2) 240 = 1039 BC Solomon's 4th year, 200 years, perhaps to the day, after entering the promised land. 1039 BC was also the year of the jubile. The month Zif in 1039 BC may have begun on the new moon Friday, April 12, the same day of the year as when Israel crossed the river Jordan, Sunday April 12 1239 BC, and the same day of the week as the Exodus, Friday, April 4, 1279 BC.

King Wan was the father of emperor Wu who started the Chow dynasty in 1122 BC. King Wan was not emperor but thought he had the right to be emperor perhaps because he was born about the year of Joshua's long day February 26 1238 BC. Emperor's often took sun miracles as a sign to change rulers. Thus king Wan's purpose in recording the sun miracle thus:

"King Wan dreamt that he was clothed with the sun and the moon. A phoenix duck sang on mount K'e. In the first month of spring, on the 6th day, the five planets had a conjunction in Fang. Afterwards a male and female phoenix went about Wan's capital with a writing in their beaks, which said: 'The emperor of Yin has no principle, but oppresses and disorders the empire. The great decree is removed: Yin cannot enjoy it longer. The powerful spirits of earth have left it; all the spirits are whistled away. The conjunction of the five planets in Fang brightens all within the four seas.'" The Annals of the Bamboo Books, Part V the Dynasty of Chow, The Chinese Classics III
40 "Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt."
The Hebrew reads from the 430th year. This must be the 430th Sothis year from the Sothis cycle of 1460 years beginning at the appearing of Sirius before the sun July 16 2777 BC. Thus the 430th year is 2348 BC. The 14th day of the Egyptian lunar month was Friday April 3 2348 BC. The 14th day of the passover and Exodus was Friday April 4 1279 BC. Thus the end of the 430 years - the other end is 1279 BC. The next Sothis cycle started July 17 1320 BC. Thus April 3 2348 BC is 105 days back from July 16, and April 4 1279 BC is 105 days back from July 17. Thus the Exodus was on the same day of the week, lunar month and the year as the day Jacob entered Egypt.
God said to Abraham:
Genesis 15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
This must be the fortieth generation, the last two Hebrew letters being omitted in a copying error. 25 years to a generation, thus 40 X 25 = 100 years. Moses must have been born 1359 BC, 80 at the Exodus in 1279 BC. 2348 BC - 1000 years is 1348 BC. Thus the Exodus was in Moses generation.
Exodus 14:30 "Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore."
Some consider Seti I to be the Pharaoh that drowned in the Red Sea 1279 BC of Exodus because some date Ramses II to have died in 1213 BC too late a date for the Exodus because the forty years in the wilderness would bring the invasion of Canaan to 1173 BC, way too recent a date. If so, Seti I's body must have been recovered from the sea shore. However, there is some indication Pharaoh Merneptah did die from drowning: "Dr Bucaille discovered that Merneptah had received very violent blows to several parts of his body and had suffered a massive heart attack. Amazingly, these are the results which occur when someone dies from drowning!" "In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning." "In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning" Then there is a possibility that Merneptah was the pharaoh of the Exodus. If so, Merneptah must have drowned in the Reed Sea April 5 1279 BC and there were Israelite settlers already in the land, re the Merneptah Stela, and the lunar date for Ramses II 52nd year must work. This would mean Ramses II must have begun his reign 76 years earlier in 1355 BC. Ramses II 52nd year was dated by the 28th day of the moon December 20 1228 BC = 20-XII-1228 B.C. (year 52 II prt 28), thus his first year 1279 BC. The fixed 30 day months began July 22 and Dec 20 began a new month on the 28th day of the moon. "Re raises the vault the first day in the second period of peret (prt). That must be 21st December" However, December 20 1304 BC is also the 28th day of the moon. (More accurately December 18 is the 28th day of the Egyptian moon and the beginning of the II peret) 1279 BC (Exodus) - 1203 BC (Merneptah drowned) = 76 year gap. Then 76 + 1279 BC = 1355 BC and Ramses II's 52nd year may be 1304 BC. Thus Ramses II's lunar date does work for Merneptah to be the Pharaoh that drowned in the Reed Sea April 5 1279 BC. Because this is an exact fit, all lunar dates for Seti I and Ramses II can be shifted back 76 years and still work. See Towards an Absolute Chronology for Ancient Egypt. Also the major battle of Ramses II against the Hittites at Kadesh in Ramses II's 5th year could be 1351 BC rather than 1300 BC. Ramses II would have the Hebrew slaves he needed for his many building projects. Egypt went into decline after Pharaoh Merneptah just as in depicted by the Bible. This would mean Moses was born in 1359 BC was adopted by one of Pharaoh Seti I's daughters, Ramses II became pharaoh 3 years later and the boy killing started by the king of Egypt stopped with the death of that king - Exodus 1 & 2, and the pharaoh Moses fled from in 1319 BC was Ramses II.
Exodus 1:15 "Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian:"
2:23 "And it came to pass in the process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage."
This rather must have been this same Ramses II that died 1289 BC, then Merneptah became pharaoh till 1279 BC. Also, Merneptah was already taking over from the aging Ramses II 10 years before Ramses II died. There is no pottery trail, very little to identify Ramses II to any date. However there is mention of Hapiru, Hebrew, slaves building a temple during Ramses II's reign and also mention of Hapiru settling in the hills of Israel as farmers during Ramses II's reign. Perhaps the early settlers of Judges 4 & 5.

Written records go a long ways back before the Shang dynasty, just read the Chinese Classics Part III. There are records every several years since Yao became emperor in 2357 BC. I have found Chinese records to be very accurate. The dates for the sun miracles fit the dates given in the Bible perfectly. The Chinese astronomical observations fit this model of sun miracles perfectly.
The model described on my page shows God must have moved the sun 180 degrees around the earth and earth flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and shifted to keep in the same season. Then half a year or a year or multiples thereof the sun must move 180 degrees again and earth flow out of the reverse orbit and shift back and continue as if nothing had happened. There are many like sun miracles described on my web page http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/index.html on these exact dates along with earthquakes, meteor showers, strong winds and dried up rivers. The model really does fit observation which is the scientific method.

Andrew Bennett

Fram
2006-Mar-06, 10:08 AM
Heh, there was no month of February in 1238 BC. Nor a January.

Calendars through the ages: Early Roman calendars (http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-roman.html)

I know that. This is a date in the past, expressed in our current calendar.

Fram
2006-Mar-06, 10:43 AM
...in denouncing Egyptian text, one is placing zero value on the written word of a people who created structures that are beyond modern man's ability to reproduce. Common everyday 'horse sense' tells me if they could build pyramids they would certainly be able to record events they experienced. Another interesting aspect of the myth is the length of time they have endured unchanged, which indicates to me some degree of validity. Part of what I base this on is the short range of validity enjoyed by many, if not all, scientific theories...(ie each one is a 'lady in waiting' for her replacement) I personally do not worship at the alter of the Deists or of Science, but respect the need both fulfill in the creature we call the human being. One is based on faith, without which a human being cannot exist, be it in a god or in science, the other is based on what can be proven according to specified guidelines and defines what human beings call reality. Both being a necessity to life as we know it, it is incomprehensible to me why a common ground of mutual respect, each recognizing the merits of the other, cannot be found. I hope the people several thousand years in the future, assuming there are any, are kinder and more willing to give credit to our beliefs and accomplishments, than we are to our predessors....
Thanks for the answers to some other questions I posed.
As for this post: we can make pyramids quite easily, we don't feel the need to though. We haven't built a Gothic Cathedral, an Eiffel Tower, or an Empire State Building in the last fifty years either. There is some discussion as to how the Egyptians exactly made their pyramids, but that doesn't mean we can't make one.
Furthermore: the longevity of ideas has no bearing on their correctness at all. We believed in Ptolemaian spheres for centuries, we believed no meteorites could exist, ... I'll not start on the medical theories that endured for far too long.
The strength, not the weakness, of science is that a theory is discarded or modified once it is shown to be invalid, and that we especially test to show that it is invalid. But many theories have been hugely improved without discarding the original theory, but by refining it. Evolution is some 150 years old, Kepler's laws are even older, many insights in electricity are quite old as well. The work of Kepler, Newton, Darwin, Faraday, Bohr, ... has not become invalid, it was incomplete.
Respecting or not respecting the spiritual needs many people have and the way they seek to fulfill them is not what this discussion (and this board) is about.

Eroica
2006-Mar-06, 05:47 PM
The Hebrew word for year is "shanah", Strongs 8138, also means two or double. The year began with spring and also with fall. Thus 480 doubled years is 240 years. Then 1279 - (480/2) 240 = 1039 BC Solomon's 4th year, 200 years, perhaps to the day, after entering the promised land. 1039 BC was also the year of the jubile. The month Zif in 1039 BC may have begun on the new moon Friday, April 12, the same day of the year as when Israel crossed the river Jordan, Sunday April 12 1239 BC, and the same day of the week as the Exodus, Friday, April 4, 1279 BC. That's very interesting about "shanah", and quite plausible. 1039 BC is still about seventy years too early for Solomon, whose reign is generally given as starting about 970 BC.

I'm also very reluctant to hang any theory on conventional Egyptian chronology, because it's a mess.

Egyptian Chronology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology)

I like the idea of the Exodus taking place in the thirteenth century rather than the fifteenth, but I still think it coincided with the end of the Thirteenth dynasty. Aren't there references linking Moses with Khaneferre Sebekhotep IV?



King Wan was the father of emperor Wu who started the Chow dynasty in 1122 BC. King Wan was not emperor but thought he had the right to be emperor perhaps because he was born about the year of Joshua's long day February 26 1238 BC. He was born in 1238 BC and his son founded a dynasty 106 years later! Well, I guess it's just about possible - but not if the Chou dynasty started in 1027 BC!



"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt."
The Hebrew reads from the 430th year. This must be the 430th Sothis year from the Sothis cycle of 1460 years beginning at the appearing of Sirius before the sun July 16 2777 BC. Thus the 430th year is 2348 BC. The 14th day of the Egyptian lunar month was Friday April 3 2348 BC. The 14th day of the passover and Exodus was Friday April 4 1279 BC. Thus the end of the 430 years - the other end is 1279 BC. The next Sothis cycle started July 17 1320 BC. Thus April 3 2348 BC is 105 days back from July 16, and April 4 1279 BC is 105 days back from July 17. Thus the Exodus was on the same day of the week, lunar month and the year as the day Jacob entered Egypt. Wait a minute! I thought "shaneh" meant half-years, so the Israelistes were only in Egypt for 215 years (as St Paul implies in Galatians 3:17)!



God said to Abraham:
Genesis 15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
This must be the fortieth generation, the last two Hebrew letters being omitted in a copying error. How do you know? And how do you know that the other verses you quote haven't also been corrupted in transmission?


Some consider Seti I to be the Pharaoh that drowned in the Red Sea Some also consider Dedumose to be the Pharaoh in question. The middle part of his name recall Pi-Thom - the house of Thom - which the Israelites supposedly built.


Written records go a long ways back before the Shang dynasty, just read the Chinese Classics Part III. There may be written records that refer to events that occurred (supposedly) long before the Shang, but they were actually written long after the Shang. We have the same thing in Ireland, annals that claim to go back to about 1500 BC. But they're bogus; they were written in the Christian era.


I have found Chinese records to be very accurate. How did you check their accuracy?

aurora
2006-Mar-06, 07:12 PM
The model described on my page shows God must have moved the sun 180 degrees around the earth and earth flowed into a reverse orbit of the sun and shifted to keep in the same season. Then half a year or a year or multiples thereof the sun must move 180 degrees again and earth flow out of the reverse orbit and shift back and continue as if nothing had happened. There are many like sun miracles described on my web page http://sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/index.html on these exact dates along with earthquakes, meteor showers, strong winds and dried up rivers. The model really does fit observation which is the scientific method.


Umm, no.

You are assuming that God teleported the Earth to the other side of the Sun (or if you like, the Sun and the rest of our solar system to the other side of the Earth), and then later teleported it back again. You are assuming this because of the way you interpret ancient texts.

Somehow you are assuming that this teleportation caused earthquakes and meteors and winds and drought.

I don't understand how you think you are doing science.

Andrew4236
2006-Mar-08, 05:14 AM
To answer some questions:


THE CREDIBILITY OF THE RECORDS IN THE SH&#219;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/sbe03/sbe03005.htm

Yes, I have found these Chinese records to be very accurate as already described on this discussion board. Particulary from Yao's/Joseph's long day March 31 2357 BC and Joshua's long day February 26 1238 BC, and other sun miracles on the dates of the birth's of the patriarchs of the Bible.

To answer the next question "I don't understand how you think you are doing science."

Perhaps I see this model more clearly because I have been working with it for several years. This model answers every concern of science I can think of and thus I believe the model is true to reality in the way science is true to reality.

Andrew Bennett

skywatch
2006-Mar-08, 07:12 AM
let us remember the law all things in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. if the poles (not magnetic) flip we would still see this today the process would continue. unless the same force that caused the tumbling stoped. it not likely. to reverse rotation that short of time would cause HUGE tital waves that would scrub the planet clean of any human impact.

Nereid
2006-Mar-08, 12:57 PM
[snip]

To answer the next question "I don't understand how you think you are doing science."

Perhaps I see this model more clearly because I have been working with it for several years. This model answers every concern of science I can think of and thus I believe the model is true to reality in the way science is true to reality.

Andrew Bennett(my bold)

Several others in this thread have raised questions about the science, and have asked (you) questions concerning independent corroboration (e.g. from Antartic ice core records, from physical models).

Apart from a report of one (African, glacier?) ice core, and a wholly unrealistic 'top' model, no one supporting the ATM idea in this thread has supplied any such.

Will you be supplying answers to the (non-historical textual analysis) questions asked?

Fram
2006-Mar-08, 01:42 PM
(my bold)

Several others in this thread have raised questions about the science, and have asked (you) questions concerning independent corroboration (e.g. from Antartic ice core records, from physical models).

Apart from a report of one (African, glacier?) ice core, and a wholly unrealistic 'top' model, no one supporting the ATM idea in this thread has supplied any such.

Will you be supplying answers to the (non-historical textual analysis) questions asked?

That was in response to a question of mine: an ice core from the Kilimanjaro showed a drought around 2000 BCE that lasted some 300 years. This was only brought up as evidence for a famine in Egypt around the same period that lasted for some eight years. It was weak as evidence for that (but not contradictory or unscientific or so), but was no evidence at all for a change in the orbit or rotation of the Earth.

Eroica
2006-Mar-08, 04:31 PM
let us remember the law all things in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. if the poles (not magnetic) flip we would still see this today the process would continue. unless the same force that caused the tumbling stoped...
It is possible that the gyroscopic effect of the Earth's rotation would cause the flipping to stop. Uranus and Venus appear to have been tipped over sometime in the past, but neither is still flipping!

cjl
2006-Mar-09, 05:10 AM
True, but it certainly could not flip and have anything left alive on it after the flip completed (much less people to write it down)

aurora
2006-Mar-09, 06:19 PM
That was in response to a question of mine: an ice core from the Kilimanjaro showed a drought around 2000 BCE that lasted some 300 years. This was only brought up as evidence for a famine in Egypt around the same period that lasted for some eight years. It was weak as evidence for that (but not contradictory or unscientific or so), but was no evidence at all for a change in the orbit or rotation of the Earth.

Yes, one is left wondering how Andrew4236 proposes that teleportation of the Earth caused a drought in Egypt which left evidence in one ice core on Kilimanjaro.

What is the mechanism that teleportation of the earth would cause a localized drought? And no other evidence?

Fram
2006-Mar-09, 07:31 PM
Oh, I'm willing to believe that there was a widespread drought, it doesn't have to be local. After all, there have been droughts and famines in Egypt (just like everywhere else, except Scotland perhaps (just kidding!)), so this one may be felt both in Egypt and on the Kilimanjaro.
That doesn't give much credibility to the changing Earth orbit idea though. It's a common theme with some people, that if one part of some ancient text is based on historic facts, then all of it must be based on historic facts. This is, of course, highly debatable...