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servantx
2006-Feb-14, 02:12 AM
If all the distance galaxy move together with our galaxy, then how do we know the actual speed or direction? We would see everything as does not move at all because the related position with all other masses in the universe does not change...

Blob
2006-Feb-14, 05:39 AM
Hum,
in laypersons terms - no - the universe is not spinning.

Any large scale spin would show up in the background radiation.

Of course this is a fact only in our observable universe. Any movement beyond what we can ever be aware of, or see, is speculation.

Jens
2006-Feb-14, 06:16 AM
If all the distance galaxy move together with our galaxy, then how do we know the actual speed or direction?

Just a hint from a layperson who doesn't know all that much about the subject...

I think what you're trying to ask is, just as a train moving in the same direction as you are moving does not appear to move, what if the whole universe is spinning in the same direction that we're spinning?

Just an interesting question to start with is, how do we know whether we the earth is spinning or not? The answer actually is that there are two ways of knowing. And I think it's probably important to keep that in mind when thinking about your question.

noha
2006-Feb-14, 06:51 AM
If the universe was actually spinning, wouldn`t need a massive center with a very strong gravitatonal force to keep every thing moving and in place.
I think the universe is infinte and surrounded by the heavens so i think it would be really hard to tell if it were spinning or not .:think:

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-14, 06:53 AM
Welcome to BAUT! All I can tell you is the Universe "Rocks!" http://www.astronexus.com/3duniv/backgd.php

noha
2006-Feb-14, 07:24 AM
BAUT ? what does that stand for?

astromark
2006-Feb-14, 08:49 AM
B --bad
A --astronomy
U --universe
T --today
Two wonderful web sites, that became one.
It is my humble opinion that Bad Astronomy was formed to put right all the dis-information and bad astronomy. It worked.
Universe today was a news and views site. Frazer Cain started this platform for intelligent input into the world of astronomy.. and then the rest of us.....

tony873004
2006-Feb-14, 09:12 AM
I think what you're trying to ask is, just as a train moving in the same direction as you are moving does not appear to move, what if the whole universe is spinning in the same direction that we're spinning?
Linear motion and rotational motion are not the same. With linear motion it is important to state your reference frame. Rotational motion is acceleration. Consider the following:

If I placed an ant in a jar and attached a string to the jar, and swung it around in circles, the ant would feel an artificial gravity from the centrificual force. If a spider sitting on the wall were watching this, it would not feel the artificial gravity. If I suddenly declared the jar to be the stationary reference frame, would the ant cease to feel the artifical gravity? Would the spider feel the artificial gravity from sitting on the wall of a room spinning relative to the stationary jar?

The Earth cannot be considered a stationary reference. Weather patterens, those pendulum knocking down pegs displays that are in many museums, and even the direction water spirals down you toilet are give-aways. We are on an accelerating (through rotation) reference plane.

If the universe did indeed spin, coriolis forces on a large scale would exist. It would take more than just declaring that it's non-spinning state was a stationary reference frame.

b3ardy
2006-Feb-14, 10:08 AM
I think we have missed the point of the question "Is the universe spinning?".
Well for the whole universe to be spinning in the likeness of a solor system or galaxy on a cosmological scale there would be a gigantic mass almost at the centre, depending upon the distibution of matter throughout the universe as a whole, this mass would send out its gravity more to the nearby galaxies than the far. The result of this would be that they would pick up incredible speeds and orbit the centre significantly faster than the more distant masses, therefore we wouldnt all move around at the same rate and appear to be stationary like the train paradox in reverse. We would see some galaxies moving toward us, some retreating, some would move around in our orbital elipse, appearring as they were stationary. However , when we peer into the darkness this is not what we see, we see a universe that for the most part is receding away from us at frightening speed. And not only that its pace is still gathering.
I think that the idea of an "Orbital universe" is a very beautiful and endearing one ,but it can readily be disproven by simple observation.

howard2
2006-Feb-14, 10:21 AM
One of the effects of our universal inflation (The universal expansion is accelerating) is that it tends to smooth out irregularities. Although almost everything tends to rotate due to the natural forces. The only way I can imagine that we could perceive rotation of our universe would be the effects of the Coriolis forces on the Microwave Background Radiation. I don't know if our means to measure and map the M.B.R. were designed or capable of detecting any Coriolis effects. Maybe someone on this forum can help to answer this question. Don't forget that we are on the inside of the bubble looking out to wards the Event Horizon and that stops us seeing further and getting an external point of reference.

czeslaw
2006-Feb-14, 10:43 AM
If our Observable Universe is like a Black (White) Hole - the galaxies rotate together within the space and we do not see any rotation from inside. We may observe a CMBR as a redshifted gamma rays (coming to our Observable Universe from outside) escaping with the dragging space. The galaxies with a redshift "z" about 10 are almost at the very begining. CMBR with "z"=1000 is not much farther but is carried by the escaping (dragging) space and redshift is maximal. Rotation of the Universe within its space is very interesting.

"Frame dragging may play an important role in the twisted physics that cause black holes not just to swallow light and matter, but to spit out tremendous amounts of hot gas in high-velocity jets seen in several studies. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/aas_blackhole_050110.html “

“Rotational frame-dragging (Lense-Thirring effect) is the inevitable result of the general principle of relativity, applied to rotation. The relativisation of rotational effects means that a rotating body ought to pull light around with it, in a manner somewhat reminiscent of old "aether-dragging" models.

It is now the best-known effect, partly thanks to the Gravity Probe B experiment. (This experiment has almost wrapped up) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging . However, because space-time itself is moving in the ergosphere, it is impossible for objects to remain in a fixed position. Objects grazing the ergosphere could in some circumstances be catapulted outwards at great speed, extracting energy (and angular momentum) from the hole, hence the name ergosphere ("sphere of work") because it is capable of doing work.”

An example how a Black Hole may create a distortion in the space-time itself.
Black Hole Puts Dent In Space-time
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060124_spacetime_dent.html

noha
2006-Feb-14, 05:52 PM
B --bad
A --astronomy
U --universe
T --today
Two wonderful web sites, that became one.
It is my humble opinion that Bad Astronomy was formed to put right all the dis-information and bad astronomy. It worked.
Universe today was a news and views site. Frazer Cain started this platform for intelligent input into the world of astronomy.. and then the rest of us.....

thanks astromark i kept seeing that every where and i didnt know what it stood for.;)

howard2
2006-Feb-14, 06:56 PM
czeslaw. Many thanks for the introduction to WWW.space.com.
A thought has just come to me. If our Universe is rotating. Then maybe this is the reason that everything is moving outward. We see everything moving away from us in all directions. How would we determine from our position, if it was in fact forming a disk or not?
If there is a rotation in one plane would this account for the constant force required to pay for the acceleration? The force must be greater than the Mass/Energy of our entire Universe and therefore cannot be from an internal source such as Dark Energy pushing outward. Unless this rotational energy is the Dark Energy.

czeslaw
2006-Feb-15, 01:12 PM
czeslaw. Many thanks for the introduction to WWW.space.com.
A thought has just come to me. If our Universe is rotating. Then maybe this is the reason that everything is moving outward. We see everything moving away from us in all directions. How would we determine from our position, if it was in fact forming a disk or not?
If there is a rotation in one plane would this account for the constant force required to pay for the acceleration? The force must be greater than the Mass/Energy of our entire Universe and therefore cannot be from an internal source such as Dark Energy pushing outward. Unless this rotational energy is the Dark Energy.

There are many ideas about our Universe:

Rotating Universe and Dark Energy
“Now one should not think of a rotating universe as some sort of a ball of stuff spinning in the void, for then one might justifiably ask with reference to what it rotates. Rather consider a universe undergoing some sort of internal motion with its parts revolving with respect to each other. Such a visualization remains particularly pertinent in the case of an hypersphere which has no centre anyway.Such internal motion has the name of Vorticity rather than rotation as one would understand it for a ball (an ordinary 2-sphere). Vorticity implies that all points revolve around each other, and the universe remains isotropic and isomorphic on the large scale http://www.specularium.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=82 matter everywhere rotates relative to the compass of inertia with the angular velocity of 2(piKp)^1/2, W = 2(piGd)^1/2”

“Another speculation that the “Big Spin” model of gravity can lead us to is a possible explanation of accelerating expansion of the Universe without a need for “dark energy” (or one can say Universe's rotation is the “dark energy”).Admittedly, getting rid of time component of spacetime, we need to suggest an alternative explanation for the http://www.antigravity.org/BigSpinModelOfGravity.html “

Goedels Rotating Universe is ruled out now because of the acceleration of the Universe expanssion and such a closed Universe has not an energy to do such an acceleration.

In my idea the energy is supplied from outside and drives rotation of the Cosmic Walls and galaxy superclusters. This energy might be a part of the Dark Matter Phenomenon.

suntrack2
2006-Feb-15, 02:38 PM
universe is spinning but directions are different in different corners?

Fr. Wayne
2006-Feb-16, 02:53 AM
Has anybody figured out non-mathematically what gravity really is? Could it be the residual reactions to the Big Bang expansion? If local galaxies rotate about a Great Attractor in our area of universe, that would go a long way to the claims that the Big Bang was a-spinning as she blew her top. Insufficient data to make such claims, but gravity still puzzles me (e.i. attraction over a distance)?

servantx
2006-Feb-16, 03:19 AM
When you spin, things continue to move outward, is it an explaination for the universe's expansion of the universe and/or the acceleration of the universe as observed with space telescopes?

czeslaw
2006-Feb-16, 09:22 AM
Has anybody figured out non-mathematically what gravity really is? Could it be the residual reactions to the Big Bang expansion? If local galaxies rotate about a Great Attractor in our area of universe, that would go a long way to the claims that the Big Bang was a-spinning as she blew her top. Insufficient data to make such claims, but gravity still puzzles me (e.i. attraction over a distance)?

It was shown by Unruh and by Davies that an accelerating detector will experience a Planckian-like heat bath whose apparent ``temperature'' is a result of quantum vacuum radiation. A tiny fraction of the (enormous) electromagnetic quantum vacuum energy can emerge as real radiation under the appropriate conditions. The existence of Unruh-Davies radiation is now generally accepted and SLAC physicist Pisin Chen has recently proposed an experiment to measure it. Rueda and Haisch analyzed a related process and found that as perceived by an accelerating object, an energy and momentum flux of radiation emerges from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum and that the strength of this momentum flux proves to be proportional to acceleration. If this momentum flux is allowed to interact with matter, presumably at the level of quarks and electrons, a reaction force is produced that can be interpreted as the origin of Newton's F=ma. In this view, which we call the quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis, matter resists acceleration not because of some innate property of inertia, but rather because the electromagnetic quantum vacuum provides an acceleration-dependent drag force. http://www.calphysics.org/gravitation.html