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Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-15, 08:26 PM
What would happen if the rovers that just reached mars; had somehow been able to mount a U.S flag?

Is this something to be done by humans? Or would it just be dumb idea and a waste of space for instruments and an increase of weight (which i agree with)

What do you think?

Tacitus
2006-Feb-15, 08:31 PM
Pure and simply a waste of weight, money and space.

(Oh, and possibly one in the eye of the many non-Americans who worked on and still contribute to the program).

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-15, 09:26 PM
I agree, i guess this has been settled...

Saluki
2006-Feb-15, 10:08 PM
What would happen if the rovers that just reached mars; had somehow been able to mount a U.S flag?

Then there would be a US flag on Mars.

Dragon Star
2006-Feb-15, 10:10 PM
Why in the world would you need a flag on Mars?:eh:

Honestly...

ToSeek
2006-Feb-15, 10:13 PM
I think this (http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Mars/Pics/merausflag.jpg) is quite sufficient. Anything else would be a waste of mass and space.

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-15, 10:19 PM
I dont really know why, i just thought because i was doing a paper on privatization on how first it was land, then water, then air, and now space (the moon)

and it seems we claim whatever we get to.

see post #6 http://bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=38129

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Feb-15, 10:19 PM
The same thing that happened when the astronauts planted the US flag on the Moon--nothing. No claim has been made, indeed, since we are signatories of (must look up exact name of) the International Space Treaty, no nation can make such a claim and no one is under any obligation to recognize any such claim. It's just for show.

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-15, 11:20 PM
International Space Treaty? Interesting........ill do my research..... but treaty or no treaty, a flag is kinda a claim, columbus with the carribean, plymouth, etc. it may be official, but the people know what they see :)

Kelfazin
2006-Feb-16, 03:20 AM
...since we are signatories of (must look up exact name of) the International Space Treaty, no nation can make such a claim and no one is under any obligation to recognize any such claim.

I believe you may be referring to theOuter Space Treaty of 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty) and the subsequent Moon Agreement of 1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Agreement)


Moreover, it explicitly forbids any government from claiming a celestial resource such as the Moon or a planet since they are common heritage of mankind.

Photon
2006-Feb-16, 04:01 AM
I was sure Tasmania was going to build military bases on the moon. That Moon Agreement ruins everything.

01101001
2006-Feb-16, 04:07 AM
I think this (http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Mars/Pics/merausflag.jpg) is quite sufficient. Anything else would be a waste of mass and space.
Larger: America On Board (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=343)
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/mer/2004-01-09/flag-80.jpg (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=343)

Not only the lander bases are flagged, but the rovers carry flags, too, and sort of wave them every time they move their arms.

Back in Action-2 (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1257)
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/mer/2004-02-06/Spirit_RAT_Flag-80.jpg (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1257)

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Feb-16, 05:12 AM
I've never really thought about it until this thread came up (thank you Knowledge_Seeker!), but if we went to the Moon "for all mankind", why didn't we put up a United Nations flag? OK, so maybe the US paid the bills (with billions of the best money we ever invested!) and has the right to put up a flag, but isn't there some sign of the UN on the Moon too, say on one of the plaques? Does anyone know off-hand?

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-16, 05:18 AM
(thank you Knowledge_Seeker

No problem, my pleasure. Like my name says, im Knowledge_Seeker, i want to know as much as possible and the best way to ask is buy questions :), wow thats so wise for a kid like me :)

01101001
2006-Feb-16, 05:25 AM
OK, so maybe the US paid the bills (with billions of the best money we ever invested!) and has the right to put up a flag, but isn't there some sign of the UN on the Moon too, say on one of the plaques?

They took a UN flag there and back.

NASA History Portal: Where No Flag Has Gone Before: Political and Technical Aspects of Placing a Flag on the Moon (http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/flag/flag.htm)


The original plaque design featured a U.S. flag, but the graphic was changed to pictures of the eastern and western hemispheres of the Earth to symbolize the crew's point of origin. It was decided that, in addition to the large flag, 4 x 6 inch flags of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. territories, and flags for all member countries of the United Nations and several other nations, would be carried in the lunar module and returned for presentation to governors and heads of state after the flight.

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-16, 05:29 AM
Nice research 01101001 ! but i think that is too long for me to read :( '

(does ur name have any particular meaning?)

01101001
2006-Feb-16, 05:43 AM
(does ur name have any particular meaning?)
Lots of meaning.
Article in Explain Your Name (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=246849#post246849)
About 01101001 Website (http://www.01101001.com/about.html)

Tacitus
2006-Feb-16, 06:37 AM
I've never really thought about it until this thread came up (thank you Knowledge_Seeker!), but if we went to the Moon "for all mankind", why didn't we put up a United Nations flag? OK, so maybe the US paid the bills (with billions of the best money we ever invested!) and has the right to put up a flag, but isn't there some sign of the UN on the Moon too, say on one of the plaques? Does anyone know off-hand?

There was the small matter of the Cold War with the Soviet Union going on at the time. Besides, it was a massive achievement and, speaking as a Brit, something the USA should be rightly proud of and was worthy of a planted flag.

The first American flag to planted on Martian soil will arrive with the first American. Manned missions are, by necessity, much bigger so a small flag will not be an issue on such a trip.

Romanus
2006-Feb-16, 08:05 AM
I couldn't resist. ;)

Image (http://www.nonstick.com/wpics/daffydu.gif)

From:
http://www.nonstick.com/portuguese/wdocs/top20.html

Enzp
2006-Feb-16, 08:26 AM
That is an Acme disintegrating pistol, Daffy is in no danger.

It is one thing to plant a flag and say "I claim this moon for the USA." it is another to plant a flag and say, "Look, we were here." If an American team climbs Everest and leaves a flag, no one thinks we claimed it.

Kelfazin
2006-Feb-16, 03:24 PM
I've never really thought about it until this thread came up (thank you Knowledge_Seeker!), but if we went to the Moon "for all mankind", why didn't we put up a United Nations flag? OK, so maybe the US paid the bills (with billions of the best money we ever invested!) and has the right to put up a flag, but isn't there some sign of the UN on the Moon too, say on one of the plaques? Does anyone know off-hand?

Actually, during the mission planning stages, the plan was to bring a small postcard sized flag of every nation in the UN rather than just a UN flag. That plan was eventually vetoed by the astronauts though.

The plaque on the leg of the Apollo 11 descent stage states "Here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the moon July 1969, A.D. We came in peace for all mankind"

*bold mine*

So it doesn't state the UN in specific terms, but it does acknowledge that it was done for everybody. And the astronauts themselves felt what they did was an accomplishment of all of mankind, not just Americans.

tlbs101
2006-Feb-16, 05:00 PM
*IF* a flag has been planted by the rover(s), my question is; would an incident dust devil have sufficient energy to cause the flag material to "wave", or even to blow the whole flag away?

I can't find any information on estimates of dust devil wind speed, pressure, energy, etc.

Wolverine
2006-Feb-16, 06:23 PM
I couldn't resist. ;)

Please don't hotlink images, as per the forum rules (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=564845#post564845).

Try to avoid putting in links to images directly from someone else's website. This can add a lot to their bandwidth, and then the host has to pay for it. In other words, if you see an image you like on an astronomy site, put in a link to that site, but don't use the [IMG] tags so the image loads into your post from their site directly.

ngc3314
2006-Feb-16, 07:55 PM
What would happen if the rovers that just reached mars; had somehow been able to mount a U.S flag?


Nothing new - many Soviet missions carried pennants or medallions with the state seal, CCCP, and other insignias (see pictures here (
http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_Pennants.htm)). The USSR's Mars 3 was the first spacecraft to reach the surface intact, carrying such insignia, although it suffered some kind of communications failure before sending so much as a recognizable image from the surface. That web site also includes a picture showing one such medallion visible in a picture on the surface of Venus.

Qiuick edit - note also that the Viking landers included a US flag (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA00565) in their surface paint, a particular nod to the US bicentennial year of their flights to Mars.

Nicolas
2006-Feb-16, 09:17 PM
I have no problems with the flag on the moon being an american one.

*they claim no property whatsoever
*they clearly state they came in peace for all mankind, as "men from the planet earth".
*it was a race between nations to go to the moon, therefore the flag indicates the winner. The astronauts themselves rightfully felt the mission itself was more important than the political race behind it, and therefore would rather have had a symbol of all mankind than the US flag. But in the light of the time, it is logical that the flag was to be an american one.

I don't know what would be done these days. I think they'd put a symbol of all earth, and one of the nation(s) that were the first to reach the planet/moon.

Knowledge_Seeker
2006-Feb-16, 10:37 PM
Actually, during the mission planning stages, the plan was to bring a small postcard sized flag of every nation in the UN rather than just a UN flag. That plan was eventually vetoed by the astronauts though.

The plaque on the leg of the Apollo 11 descent stage states "Here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the moon July 1969, A.D. We came in peace for all mankind"

*bold mine*

So it doesn't state the UN in specific terms, but it does acknowledge that it was done for everybody. And the astronauts themselves felt what they did was an accomplishment of all of mankind, not just Americans.

See until now, i didnt know that. But as for the average joe i doubt they will know it and the way i see it, many of man sees it as the u.s claiming the moon

Kelfazin
2006-Feb-17, 12:38 AM
I'm not so sure that the average Joe would feel that it was America claiming the moon, but then again, I'm an American, I may be a bit biased :). However, if I forget about the Outer Space Treaty, I don't feel that, if and when China puts men up there, they would be attempting to claim the moon. I think of flags up there more like rewards for the hard work and dedication of thousands of people. It's more of a "look what we have accomplished" rather than an "I claim this land for <insert leader of country's name here>."

*and I can't stop thinking of Eddie Izzard as we talk about this lol*

The Supreme Canuck
2006-Feb-17, 12:43 AM
Heck, I have no problem with a US flag in the Moon. I don't even have a problem with a US flag in Canada. No territory claim is being made.

Enzp
2006-Feb-17, 02:24 AM
tlbs101 there are no dust devils on the moon. In a vacuum, there is nothing to swirl, nothing to cause the flag to wave, nothing to blow it away. If it were planted too close to the lander, potentially exhaust gasses from the ascent motor could blow against the flag when the lander takes off.

Launch window
2006-Feb-17, 03:30 AM
I don't know what would be done these days. I think they'd put a symbol of all earth, and one of the nation(s) that were the first to reach the planet/moon.

On the first manned Shenzhou flight the guy from China brought up the U.N flag, however he also took up the Chinese flag
http://english.people.com.cn/200310/15/images/265105s.jpg
If the Chinese improve their manned missions and build a big powerful launcher, I've a feeling Mars might be called the red planet for more than one reason

Tacitus
2006-Feb-17, 04:23 AM
Heh - believe it or not, Lewis Black just did his usual riff on The Daily Show on Comedy Central and, to paraphrase, he said that robots on Mars was all well and good, but we haven't really been there until we've planted the American flag and hit a golf ball.

(He's obviously a Bad Astronomy regular :) )

Glom
2006-Feb-17, 02:36 PM
If they had put the American flag on Mars, that would have upset their Middle-East paymasters (any of them will do).
[/left wing conspiracism]
:dance:

tlbs101
2006-Feb-17, 08:26 PM
tlbs101 there are no dust devils on the moon. In a vacuum, there is nothing to swirl, nothing to cause the flag to wave, nothing to blow it away. If it were planted too close to the lander, potentially exhaust gasses from the ascent motor could blow against the flag when the lander takes off.

But, the original thread subject was about planting a flag on Mars, by the Mars rovers.

I suppose I should have quoted the original post to make it clearer.

Enzp
2006-Feb-18, 05:53 AM
Oh, just me having another senior moment, then, sorry. I thought you were referring to the flag that actually was planted, that being the moon's.