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Captain Kidd
2006-Mar-11, 01:36 PM
From BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4796470.stm)

Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic has died in the detention centre at The Hague tribunal.
The tribunal said he had been found dead in his cell on Saturday morning. The cause of death is not yet clear.
Well I guess he ended up serving a life sentence.
This is going to get interesting. For one thing, I expect an outpouring of conspiracy theories to crop up.

[edit due to submitting rather than previewing.]

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Mar-11, 02:42 PM
Well, his crony Babic killed himself last week,
and there was a suicide in 1998.
I detect a pattern. ;)

Cylinder
2006-Mar-11, 02:46 PM
It is strange.

It could be a normal death from natural causes.

It could be a Goering-style suicide to cheat the hangman.

It could be a revenge killing.

Choose any one and you still get a wealth of conspiracy fodder.

Dragon Star
2006-Mar-11, 02:53 PM
Oh great, something else that can (and will) be blamed on Bush...:rolleyes:

soylentgreen
2006-Mar-11, 05:23 PM
It could be a Goering-style suicide to cheat the hangman.


That's the first thing I though of, the good ol' Herr formerReichsmarschall.
:eh:

MrClean
2006-Mar-11, 05:25 PM
Well, at least he's gone.

Good Riddence.

The Supreme Canuck
2006-Mar-11, 05:29 PM
Well, at least he's gone.

Good Riddence.

Agreed. You'll find no sympathy from me.

Sammy
2006-Mar-11, 06:26 PM
Agreed. You'll find no sympathy from me.

Ditto!

A junior partner of Hitler and Stalin.

antoniseb
2006-Mar-11, 06:31 PM
I wonder how this will affect his trial.

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Mar-11, 06:51 PM
There will be no verdict, and that is the big downside to this.

He had a serious heart problem, but Slobo was notoriously stubborn about following medical advise.
I wouldn't put it past him that he committed a slow suicide. Fits his profile.

The Saint
2006-Mar-11, 10:51 PM
To think that in WW2 a man like Serbian Orthodox Slobodan would have been considered a hero for taking on the ruthless pro-Nazi Catholic Croat Ustase and Bosnian Muslim Handschar: a man born out of time.

Moose
2006-Mar-11, 11:13 PM
You know, I find myself in the position of being only mildly curious as to "whodunnit", and knowing the feeling will have passed in the next hour or so.

It'll be (mildly) interesting to know if he "shot himself in the head fourteen times".

Dragon Star
2006-Mar-11, 11:14 PM
lmao

Maha Vailo
2006-Mar-12, 01:24 AM
I'm with the folks who say "Good riddance!"

Though if Milosevic comes back as an undead horror, I want off of this planet. :o

- Maha "it Serbs him right" Vailo

sarongsong
2006-Mar-12, 02:45 AM
Seems like he was on trial a very long time---4 years and counting---weird situation all the way around.

Captain Kidd
2006-Mar-12, 03:05 AM
I'm wondering if we'll now see a speedy conclusion. Dead men can't argue as easily.

Wolverine
2006-Mar-12, 05:24 AM
For one thing, I expect an outpouring of conspiracy theories to crop up.

Yep. I'll be surprised if we make it through the weekend before there are several conspiratorial yarns in circulation.

Archer17
2006-Mar-12, 06:36 AM
I can think of a couple already .. although I'll keep 'em to myself, no need to plant seeds.

Hopefully with Milosevic's passing that part of Europe can start the process of closure and eventually put the nightmare of the '90s behind them.

The Backroad Astronomer
2006-Mar-12, 09:02 PM
one comment
CSI:The hague

jrkeller
2006-Mar-12, 09:41 PM
Yep. I'll be surprised if we make it through the weekend before there are several conspiratorial yarns in circulation.

Already saw a report that his supporters say he was poisoned.

soylentgreen
2006-Mar-12, 09:49 PM
Already saw a report that his supporters say he was poisoned.

That's funny, as I would consider that it was his supporters who had been poisoned. :rolleyes:

Carnifex
2006-Mar-12, 10:08 PM
I don't want to sound rude but this is one good news I tell ya.

The Supreme Canuck
2006-Mar-12, 10:15 PM
Looks like it was a heart attack:

Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3718456.html).

And, the trial of his regime still goes on:

Link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Milosevic_Still_on_Trial.html).

Arneb
2006-Mar-12, 10:18 PM
Well, they say it was a heart attack (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/12/milosovic/index.html).

[woowoo mode]
A hear attack? TPTB always say it's a heart attack, don't they?
[/woowoo mode]

Melusine
2006-Mar-12, 10:25 PM
Below are reactions to his death:
Widow Mirjana Milosevic: "The tribunal has killed my husband."
Borislav Milosevic, brother: "All responsibility for what has happened rests with" the tribunal. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/11/milosevic.reacts/

:boohoo: The above link is a good collection of reactions from around the world. No sympathy from me. I do, however, understand how some people regret that he could not be tried and pronounced guilty; they wanted to see him publicly shamed and feel justice would be served.

An excellent and readable book about genocide is A Problem From Hell... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060541644/qid=1142201808/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3848408-9275261?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) I saw an interview with Samantha Power some time ago on Newsworld International (a Canadian channel bought out by a pathetically awful, new network.) She devotes two chapters at the end to Milosevic.

Fortis
2006-Mar-13, 12:24 AM
Just waiting for the CTers to jump on this as they jumped on the the death of the last inmate at Spandau, Rudolph Hess.

Jens
2006-Mar-13, 01:29 AM
It could be a Goering-style suicide to cheat the hangman.


I don't know if that was meant in a very metaphorical way, but it wouldn't make sense, because the Hague can't impose the death penalty (it's an international tribunal, not the US or China or Vietnam). In fact, it was said at the time that Milosevic might have actually decided to go to the Hague because he could have faced the death penalty in Yugoslavia.

Fram
2006-Mar-13, 02:25 PM
To think that in WW2 a man like Serbian Orthodox Slobodan would have been considered a hero for taking on the ruthless pro-Nazi Catholic Croat Ustase and Bosnian Muslim Handschar: a man born out of time.

First of all, you can not know what someone would have done in some situations, which makes your statement invalid from the start. He might just as well have collaborated with the Nazi's, being more opportunistic and power greedy than ideological. Who knows? Who cares?
Second, you don't qualify by whom he would have been considered a hero.
Thirdly, your focus on religion is irrelevant, both for deciding who is heroic and who isn't as for deciding who was right or wrong in WWII.
You seem to be defending Milosevic as some defender of human rights and a religious zealot at the same time, while simultaneously comparing the people that fought (or simply died) for Croatia or Bosnia in the 1990's with the people from those countries that supported the occupying Nazi's in WWII. This is hugely insulting to the current populations of Croatia and Bosnia and to those that died in the Yugoslav Wars, and a rather hagiographic view of Milosevic.
If I go and attack Germany tomorrow, am I then a "man born out of time" as well?

Doodler
2006-Mar-13, 02:32 PM
Bleh, I just hope he was conscious when the attack started. My biggest concern in this whole thing is that he might have gone in his sleep.

soylentgreen
2006-Mar-13, 02:58 PM
Just waiting for the CTers to jump on this as they jumped on the the death of the last inmate at Spandau, Rudolph Hess.

I though they cracked him out of there.....oh, wait...that was the movie WILD GEESE II. :o

jkmccrann
2006-Mar-13, 06:09 PM
I can think of a couple already .. although I'll keep 'em to myself, no need to plant seeds.

Hopefully with Milosevic's passing that part of Europe can start the process of closure and eventually put the nightmare of the '90s behind them.

Some of those parts of Europe are already moving forward - Don't forget Slovenia is already a member of the EU.

But, as for Serbia/Kosovo/Montenegro/Albania, they have a ways to go yet. Particularly Serbia, as long as Karadzic & Mladic are free men Serbia will not join, and will not be able to join, the 21st century.

Those guys are still heroes - to a sizable chunk of the population, and also, more importantly, to sizeable chunks of the armed forces - which is precisely why they're still being protected from justice.

Halcyon Dayz
2006-Mar-13, 07:57 PM
:eh: I hereby propose the hypothesis that Slobo accidentally poisoned himself.
Just for the record.

Fortis
2006-Mar-13, 08:51 PM
:eh: I hereby propose the hypothesis that Slobo accidentally poisoned himself.
Just for the record.
It appears that you may not be far from the truth according to this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4801292.stm), if taking drugs that counteract the effects of potentially life-saving drugs counts as poisoning...

Maha Vailo
2006-Mar-14, 12:47 PM
Hoo, brother. And that sort of thing could've been avoided.

And the Serbian reaction to Milosevic's death worries me. It seems like they're never going to change, and it's only a matter of time before they repeat an atrocity. Are all Serbs really evil? How do attitudes like this change, what prompts them to change, and how long does the change take? bear in mind this is all relevant to the story I'm writing, so please answer these for me.

- Maha (can't say I feel sorry) Vailo

Moose
2006-Mar-14, 01:06 PM
It's not that "Serbs are evil" or anything that oversimple. They aren't. Keep in mind the regional populations have been living cheek-and-jowl for a thousand years, have a startling number of (artificial) differences, and have accumulated a great deal of bad blood in that time.

Thing is, when you grow up being told all about the atrocities the previous generation has committed on your people (and brushing off the atrocities done right back, as people inevitably do), you end up thinking of the other side as something less than human.

Combine that with the dangerous belief that "God is on your side" vs the heathens and heretics, then suddenly it's morally okay (with undertones of "necessary") to do anything hostile you can think of to your neighbors, that they somehow deserve it.

Add ego and power to that, and you inevitably end up with someone like Milosovic.

The sad thing is that the (former) Yugoslavian situation isn't rare. It's not even uncommon.

captain swoop
2006-Mar-14, 02:33 PM
Looks like the Russians aren't happy, they want to send their own doctors to see the body, they don't trust the autopsy.

Maha Vailo
2006-Mar-14, 05:33 PM
Thing is, when you grow up being told all about the atrocities the previous generation has committed on your people (and brushing off the atrocities done right back, as people inevitably do), you end up thinking of the other side as something less than human.

Combine that with the dangerous belief that "God is on your side" vs the heathens and heretics, then suddenly it's morally okay (with undertones of "necessary") to do anything hostile you can think of to your neighbors, that they somehow deserve it.

Add ego and power to that, and you inevitably end up with someone like Milosovic.

Can this sort of thing be prevented? If so, how? Why is it that these people are always at each other's throats whereas, say, the French and Germans (who used to have the same problem) aren't? What is the process by which such a change takes place?

- Maha Vailo

Moose
2006-Mar-14, 05:50 PM
Can this sort of thing be prevented? If so, how? Why is it that these people are always at each other's throats whereas, say, the French and Germans (who used to have the same problem) aren't? What is the process by which such a change takes place?

What happened in WWII was an aberration that had little to do with "France" vs "Germany" except in that Germany is where Hitler's power was centered. He picked on Jews and, really, anybody who he percieved as "different" wherever they were to be found. The flashpoint that let Hitler come to power was the economic hardship in Germany after WWI, which was simply a late play at imperialism, and worsened by chains of treaties being invoked.

The problems in Western Europe were relatively recent, and thus aren't as ingrained as they could be.

The troubles in the Balkan region, however, have been smoldering as the midpoint between the early Chrisitan Romans and the Ottoman-era Muslims. 2000ish years is a long time for it to be very easy to "forgive and forget".

As for a solution? No idea. Whoever comes up with one is a shoe-in for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Cylinder
2006-Mar-14, 05:51 PM
I don't know if that was meant in a very metaphorical way

Yup.

skepticfrog
2006-Mar-14, 05:57 PM
Though I am not sad to see him dead, I do wish that his trial would have gone on to completion. It would have been a nice precedent; while the Tribunal for Yugoslavia and the one for Rwanda have set some important precedents, neither has convicted a former head of state.

Maha Vailo
2006-Mar-14, 06:10 PM
As for a solution? No idea. Whoever comes up with one is a shoe-in for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Well then, have there been any historical precednts for long-standing hatred being turned into love? If so, what was the process by which it happened? Likewise, what might be the process by which it might change in the Balkans?

I don't want any underlying crises to taint my story, so answer these to the best of your ability. If you can't answer them too well, make something up that isn't too implausible.

- Maha (wooried such things will put an end to us if we don't put an end to it) Vailo

jkmccrann
2006-Mar-14, 06:46 PM
Well then, have there been any historical precednts for long-standing hatred being turned into love? If so, what was the process by which it happened? Likewise, what might be the process by which it might change in the Balkans?

I don't want any underlying crises to taint my story, so answer these to the best of your ability. If you can't answer them too well, make something up that isn't too implausible.

- Maha (wooried such things will put an end to us if we don't put an end to it) Vailo

The earthquakes in Greece & Turkey a few years back. They certainly brought people of those two countries together like never before.

Helping each other out in their times of need is certainly a good way to put a lot of emnity behind you. But, if Turkey is refused entry to the EU it could easily come back, plus - there is the small matter of the bickering communities on Cyprus that's always there as a running sore that can go in unpredictable directions...........

Gillianren
2006-Mar-14, 07:29 PM
Well then, have there been any historical precednts for long-standing hatred being turned into love? If so, what was the process by which it happened? Likewise, what might be the process by which it might change in the Balkans?

I don't want any underlying crises to taint my story, so answer these to the best of your ability. If you can't answer them too well, make something up that isn't too implausible.

Well, I know that there are a lot of little groups in Northern Ireland whose purpose is to make people sit down and talk to one another. Not leaders, mind--ordinary people. For preference, young people--the younger, the better. If you had a choice between a lifelong Klan member and his grandson to sit down and talk with someone black of the same age, which do you think would be a better choice? (Answer: the one without fifty years of ingrained beliefs in the other side's innate evil.)

Moose
2006-Mar-14, 07:32 PM
Well then, have there been any historical precednts for long-standing hatred being turned into love? If so, what was the process by which it happened? Likewise, what might be the process by which it might change in the Balkans?

A common perceived threat over a long period of time. Someone even more of an outsider and/or less acceptable than your neighbor was.

When did the former European empires finally end their colonial wars for good? When the Soviet Union started gobbling up neighboring countries. They banded together into various organizations, generally made nice with each other, and trembled together at the great red bogieman. (Edit: Yeah, this paragraph is slightly sarcastic. The soviet folks had been doing the same about us.)

And in all the common commotion, they had fifty years or so of getting used to the idea of standing together.

epenguin
2006-Mar-14, 11:40 PM
I hope I'm wrong but so far as I can make out, although the accused was on trial for four years at a cost, I read, of some $200 million (legitimate expenses plus lawyers) and most of his trial and hearing of evidence has been done, since Slob is dead the court due to judge him is now just going to pack up and do no more.

This, if it turns out true, is the sort of behaviour worthy of - well, judges and lawyers!

An affront to his victims.

A setback to to any ideas of Responsibility and Accountability, Human Rights and International Justice, moral duty to victims as well as to the reputation of institutions meant to embody these: the UN and its International Criminal Tribunal, neither of which stand so sky high that they - we - can really afford it.

I refuse to believe that it is beyond the wit of man to reach some form of judgement.

(After all, people are often condemned in absentia, when it is not known whether they are alive. I've never heard of a court being called to annul a sentence because then it was discovered the condemned person was not alive at some point, if we want to descend to despicable lawyers' arguments.)

And if ever there was a need for a court to set precedents, this is it.