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sarongsong
2003-Mar-14, 09:24 PM
"The above and below images show a "Worm" or microbe eating the wire of a Liquid Nitrogen Apollo Space Craft Fuel Sensor...This thing will destroy any Gold or Platinum computer part on any space craft or probe. If on board a Probe that lands on a planet that has a Nitrogen atmosphere it could contaminate that planet and also provide a false discovery of "Life" on the planet
--Howard Kirkwood
hgkirkwood@msn.com "
http://coasttocoastam.com/gen/page82.html

TriangleMan
2003-Mar-14, 09:32 PM
A microbe that eats gold and platinum? <sigh> /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Looks to me like a combination of imagination and pixels on the photograph, or are these square worms?

If these microbes existed we would see "gold corrosion" on every piece of jewelry worn world-wide. Oh, wait, these microbes must just exist at NASA installations! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

nebularain
2003-Mar-14, 10:10 PM
Post a picture no one can make sense of . . . Claim self as an "expert" . . . Make whatever claim I want to about what is being shown in the picture . . . .

sarongsong
2003-Mar-14, 10:57 PM
Ha Ha, well he DOES admit, "No one believes me when I say that this "thing" EATS Gold and Platinum. Those that do answer tell me that NOTHING EATS Gold and Platinum so it can not exist" and "When I presented my findings to Management, I was told to "Keep My Mouth Shut." Now THAT part rings true.

Lexx_Luthor
2003-Mar-14, 11:00 PM
Just can't be satisfied with less expenive metals. Greedy bug.

Zap
2003-Mar-15, 02:39 AM
What's wrong with eating gold and platinum? I eat these metals all the time. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Ahem, If these microbes do indeed eat gold and platitnum, then heck this probably means there are microbes out there that feast on ANYTHING imaginable. Methane munchers...Sulfur snackers...Hexamethylenetetramine gobblers. Seriously.

Colt
2003-Mar-15, 02:53 AM
Reminds me of the nanomachines from Moonrise (Ben Bova), the "Gobblers" in that book could be programmed to dismantle anything. -Colt

nebularain
2003-Mar-15, 03:49 AM
Likewise reminds me of a joke:

Is it possible to make a substance that eats through everything?

(Think about it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif )

Dickenmeyer
2003-Mar-15, 03:58 AM
On 2003-03-14 21:39, Zap wrote: If these microbes do indeed eat gold and platitnum, then heck this probably means there are microbes out there that feast on ANYTHING imaginable.
Twinkies? (both kinds) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

_________________
If you can't dazzle 'em with dexterity, baffle 'em with **.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dickenmeyer on 2003-03-14 22:59 ]</font>

sarongsong
2003-Mar-15, 08:14 AM
Message from Howard:
"The arrows in the photos on the web site are misaligned but I've sent the same photos to Lex (Webmaster at
coasttocoast.com) and I think he was going to try to redo the arrows.
*
If I can be of any help to someone that has sincere interest in this "Microbe" I would be happy to provide
more information.
*
I am going to try to send a photo to you taken at 800x showing the start of this thing before it eats into
the Gold plating.
*
Keep in mind that the wire is 1/1000" in dia. so you o..."nly see part of the wire but with that in mind, when
you see the "RED" spot, that is the "Microbe" and using the wire as a guide, you will see how small it is.
Howard

kucharek
2003-Mar-15, 11:36 AM
I can't remember any liquid nitrogen tanks in the Apollo spacecraft...

As he talks about fuel tanks, the SM propulsion system used nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer. That's stuff pretty different from liquid nitrogen. If this guy can't get even this right...

Ref: http://www.apollosaturn.com/asnr/p159-172.htm

Harald

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kucharek on 2003-03-15 06:42 ]</font>

Squink
2003-Mar-15, 04:28 PM
The photo looks to me more like some sort of electrochemical reaction around a surface flaw, than bugs eating gold. However sarongsongs conjecture is not impossible. Here's (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF11/1188.html) brief discussion of bacteria that metabolize heavy metals.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-15, 04:36 PM
Howard's 2nd reply:
"Nitrogen seems to be the key factor as this "thing" came from a rich Nitrogen environment, the sensor the wire was on was packaged in a bag of Nitrogen after manufacturing and the sensor is used in a Nitrogen fuel tank where the sensor unit failed.
*
The way the "Microbe" eats, I find rather interesting as the "dashed" pattern is somewhat reminiscent of "+/-" or positive/negative. When things are as small as is this "Microbe", it is very possible that the Earth's magnetic lines of force have more effect on life than has been previously considered.
*
Did the 800x photo come through to you ok? If so, you can see that the largest of the two red globs is about sixteen times smaller than the 1 mil. wire. Photographs of any detail within the glob would require an electron microscope and I did not have access to one at the time.
*
My concern of this "thing" is that if it got onto a space craft that is in space for many months, one of these "Microbes" could eat through some computer wire or connection and cause a failure to a critical instrument. It is going to take months to go to and return from a Mars mission.
*
It took two months for this "Microbe" to completely eat through the wire in the photos. What do you think if we sent some type of landing probe to a planet or asteroid that has a nitrogen environment? It could contaminate that planet and perhaps destroy some form of other life form.
Or, if our insturments detected this "Microbe", it would perhaps give us a false reading of life on the planet.
*
I know all this sounds weird but it is possible. This "Microbe" is not known. If we don't know what it is or what it can do we should not take the chance of sending it to another world.
*
NASA is not interested, the CDC is not interested, Universities want research funding to look at it, the DOD won't respond to my queries so where does any thing get done?
*
This "Microbe" does not exist in the books so I am a nut case for suggesting it exists. You have looked at "nothing" in the photos. Not many people get a chance to see a "nothing" in a photo even if it is red, grows and changes shape.
*
It's, "To hell with safety, just provide money".
*
What are your thoughts? No, I don't have a web site---Howard."
Note: The 800X photos have not arrived yet; gave Howard this forum address should he wish to join in directly.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-16, 02:03 AM
Now have the two 800X images from Howard, but don't know the procedure to paste them here. (BA's FAQ describes how if they are at a URL, and these are not.) Can anyone help?

Here is text from his last messages:
"To be very honest, after 36 years my memory is the "second" thing to go! The sensor was used on the Apollo but what tank I am not sure...I was doing some color enhancement this morning on one of the photos to try to show the "Worm" a little better. The upper two lines are pointing to the wire (or what is left of it) and the lower two lines are pointing to the width of the "Worm"...The photo is negative to bring out the finite color and to separate the background from the
outline of the "Worm". Hope you can see it better now---Howard".

Squink
2003-Mar-16, 01:52 PM
If you really think you've got something, you might try emailing a bacteriologist with an interest in bacteria and heavy metals. There are plenty of grad students that wouldn't mind taking a look at something new, and possibly related to their dissertaion work. A quick search on the subject turned up Derek Lovley at Amherst as perhaps having an interest. http://www.umass.edu/chronicle/archives/01/08-24/lovley41.html
I'm sure that there are others who'd at least be willing to at least take alook.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-16, 05:10 PM
Thanks, Squink, you've come up with 2 good references---kind'a like that one term: "extremophile"; simple life form known to thrive in environments where others cannot live.

tracer
2003-Mar-16, 06:13 PM
On 2003-03-14 18:00, Lexx_Luthor wrote:
Just can't be satisfied with less expenive metals. Greedy bug.
I think the "greedy bug" here is the guy who owns that website. Note how there are ads on the front page proclaiming "Gold could hit $850 an ounce! Buy gold from us now!"

Maybe he's hoping to convince the public that our international supplies of gold and platinum are all going to get eaten soon, thereby starting a panic of gold and platinum-buying.

Chip
2003-Mar-16, 07:14 PM
On 2003-03-14 16:24, sarongsong wrote:
"The above and below images show a "Worm" or microbe eating the wire of a Liquid Nitrogen Apollo Space Craft Fuel Sensor...This thing will destroy any Gold or Platinum computer part on any space craft or probe. If on board a Probe that lands on a planet that has a Nitrogen atmosphere it could contaminate that planet and also provide a false discovery of "Life" on the planet."

NASA (and JPL) personnel have been known to consume Pizza, often at work stations, and even during important space exploration missions. One can't help but notice that Pizza the world over often disappears at an alarming rate soon after it is created. (Are people really eating it? Or is there a Pizza microbe at work?) Its a good thing that Pizza, which does not conduct electricity as well as gold or platinum, has therefore never been included on interplanetary landers (as far as we know.) However, one can't help but notice that Jupiter's moon Europa, (which may have life forms,) as well as parts of the moon Io, resemble certain types of Pizza. You see the logic of course. Perhaps there was Pizza contamination, leading to a Pepperoni life form!
Europa Today:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/TECH/space/06/26/galileo.io/io.jpg
Europa 100 Years from Now:
http://www.chevroncars.com/wocc/lrn/trib/gifs/pizza.jpg
So my conclusion is...hmmm....that smells nice....well, its lunch time, see you later......../phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

sarongsong
2003-Mar-16, 07:59 PM
"...our international supplies of gold and platinum..."
Sorry, tracer, though their sudden absence would make for interesting banking scenario, doubt whether a significant amount of these supplies are stored in a nitrogen environment.

Roy Batty
2003-Mar-16, 08:51 PM
So our 78% Nitrogen atmosphere isnt enough?! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

sarongsong
2003-Mar-16, 09:03 PM
Good point; apparently not:
"... the sensor the wire was on was packaged in a bag of Nitrogen after manufacturing and the sensor is used in a Nitrogen fuel tank where the sensor unit failed...".

David Hall
2003-Mar-16, 10:34 PM
On 2003-03-15 21:03, sarongsong wrote:
Now have the two 800X images from Howard, but don't know the procedure to paste them here. (BA's FAQ describes how if they are at a URL, and these are not.) Can anyone help?


If you want to post photos, you need to get them online somehow. If you have a website you can put them up there and then link to them here. Many ISP's give you some webspace along with your internet service, so you might already have the ability. If not, there are a few free hosting sites out there as well.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-16, 11:34 PM
"If you want to post photos, you need to get them online somehow..."
Thank you, Mr. Hall. However, sincere requests from the open-minded must now be individually directed to Mr. Kirkwood, whose address appears in this thread's initial post.

tracer
2003-Mar-17, 12:31 AM
On 2003-03-16 14:14, Chip wrote:
Europa Today:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/TECH/space/06/26/galileo.io/io.jpg
Hey, wait a minute! That's not Europa, that's Io!

Squink
2003-Mar-17, 01:25 AM
On 2003-03-16 19:31, tracer wrote:
Hey, wait a minute! That's not Europa, that's Io!

That's what NASA wants you to think . /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Zap
2003-Mar-17, 01:43 AM
On 2003-03-16 20:25, Squink wrote:


On 2003-03-16 19:31, tracer wrote:
Hey, wait a minute! That's not Europa, that's Io!

That's what NASA wants you to think . /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Ok now I'm really scared...

...and hungry.

Kaptain K
2003-Mar-17, 02:54 PM
I think the "greedy bug" here is the guy who owns that website. Note how there are ads on the front page proclaiming "Gold could hit $850 an ounce! Buy gold from us now!"

Maybe he's hoping to convince the public that our international supplies of gold and platinum are all going to get eaten soon, thereby starting a panic of gold and platinum-buying.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif
OK just for the sake of argument: Say that these microbes do eat gold and platinum. So what? It's not like they're going to excrete it into hyperspace. Just put your pile of G&P laden microbes in the oven and poof, it is now a pile of G&P laden ash. dump it in a vat of water and float off the light stuff. Evaporate the water and you have your G&P back.

tracer
2003-Mar-17, 04:23 PM
KaptainK:

Your solution makes perfectly rational sense.

However, the website where this article appeared seems to be anything but rational.

The website, coasttocoastam.com, is for an AM radio talk show called "Coast to Coast AM with George Noory". A quick look at the website's "Shows by Date" page reveals programs such as the following for the month of March 2003: The downing of TWA Flight 800 in 1996 was the result of a terrorist action.
Talk to an Alien
Using Witchcraft
Mysterious White Powder
Meeting Sasquatch
A man who overcame cancer with the help of his pet squirrel.Do these programs sound like something you'd hear on a "perfectly rational" radio station? No, they sound like something you'd hear on a whacko paranoid radio station. And almost universally, these same whacko paranoid radio stations ensure their listeners that Armageddon is right around the corner, so they'd better stock up on gold and silver (and maybe platinum) before the fiat-money-based economies of the world all collapse. Not coincidentally, this station also has some kind of business arrangement with a precious metals dealer who makes wild claims about gold soaring to $850 per ounce in the near future.

Therefore, it is my conjecture that the station's portrayal of a rather hair-brained theory about gold-and-platinum eating microworms may be, at least in part, in hope of fueling a panic as to the price of gold and platinum among its listeners. Even if the price of gold or platinum doesn't budge one cent, any precious metals dealers that the station has business arrangements with will profit from their "brokerage cut" on any precious metals purchase.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tracer on 2003-03-17 11:33 ]</font>

David Hall
2003-Mar-17, 06:47 PM
Hmm, that reminds me of my grandmother. She used to get these "newsletters" from some guy up in Montana or somewhere who always harped on about how the economy is going to collapse, and money will become worthless, and all your investments are going to go down the you-know-what, EXCEPT for precious stones.

And wouldn't you know it, he just happened to be a dealer in gemstones himself, and he had all these great deals for you. Just check out the attached catalog....

Funny, being the anti-government type she was, my grandmother never could see the conflict of interest and scare tactics involved. No matter how many times we tried to point it out to her, she seemed to think this guy was completely aboveboard and right on the money as far as his opinions were concerned. Go figure.

OTOH, she was also a terrible skinflint, so I don't think she ever bought any of his wares anyway. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

tracer
2003-Mar-17, 06:59 PM
On 2003-03-17 13:47, David Hall wrote:
Funny, being the anti-government type she was, my grandmother never could see the conflict of interest and scare tactics involved. No matter how many times we tried to point it out to her, she seemed to think this guy was completely aboveboard and right on the money as far as his opinions were concerned. Go figure.
A somewhat-paranoid buddy of mine has had the same problem. Since he distrusts the government so much, anybody who takes a public stance against the government is therefore, by default, trustworthy.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-17, 07:40 PM
"Say that these microbes do eat gold and platinum. So what?..."---KaptainK
Hal?...Hal! Something eating you, Hal?
"However, the website where this article appeared seems to be anything but rational... programs such as the The downing of TWA Flight 800 in 1996 was the result of a terrorist action..."---tracer
Okay, YOU explain how 800 climbed 3500 feet without a nose-section, oh, and just why is THIS guest appearing on so irrational station:
http://coasttocoastam.com/guests/120.html
nyuk-nyuk

Kaptain K
2003-Mar-18, 02:42 PM
Okay, YOU explain how 800 climbed 3500 feet without a nose-section

Your joking, right???

As someone who designed, built and flew model airplanes in his youth, I can speak from experience. If a plane is balanced and trimmed for level flight and suddenly loses a good chunk of its forward weight (thereby shifting the the CG back of the CP), it will go straight up until it loses all of its momentum!

calliarcale
2003-Mar-18, 04:20 PM
Quick question....

Is the microbe supposedly eating (as in *directly consuming*) the gold and platinum, or is it just leaving waste products that etch the metals? There are bacteria that can cause a great deal of damage to metals in this way. They don't neccesarily eat the metals directly, but they do produce corrosive wastes.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-18, 05:17 PM
Excellent point, CaptainK!
"...If a plane is balanced and trimmed for level flight...it will go straight up until it loses all of its momentum!..."
And IF it were a climbing (@13,000'), jet-engined craft, would it continue up for 3500'?
http://www.flight800.org/radar6.htm
"...Is the microbe supposedly eating (as in *directly consuming*)..."---calliarcale
You got it, Toyota!

frenat
2003-Mar-25, 08:15 PM
oh, and just why is THIS guest appearing on so irrational station:
http://coasttocoastam.com/guests/120.html


Just because Coast to Coast has a few rational guests doesn't redeem the entire show. I listen almost everyday for entertainment value and can tell you that it really seems like George Noory does not believe half of what is presented on his show but still enjoys it for entertainment value himself. Barbara Simpson on the other hand seems to believe anything she hears. She also can't seem to follow any intelligent or rational conversation. I remember a few months ago she was talking with an astronomer on one of the few rational show she has and kept asking questions that a five year old would have already known the answer to. Then when she was given the answer in very simple terms, she still didn't understand. It was really kind of sad.

One other thing, I am having trouble understanding just what benefit an organism is going to get from eating gold or platinum. What organic process could possibly make those substances useful and produce energy for the host? There is none that I know of and that is just another reason this whole thing seems unlikely.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-25, 10:17 PM
"... what benefit an organism is going to get from eating gold or platinum..."
Well, there's ORMUS (manna), for one thing.
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm
Maybe this critter can transform gold/platinum, somehow.
Agreed; "Coast-toCoast" has degenerated severely since Art Bell was literally taken out. If you have ability to hear replays, listen to author ("Lyme Disease and the SS Elbrus") Rachel Verdon completely silence Barbara with fact after fact; a real treat.

Peter B
2003-Mar-25, 10:54 PM
If the bug destroys gold and platinum, what is that gold and platinum turned into? Presumably the bug would excrete the gold/platinum. What's the alternative?

daver
2003-Mar-25, 11:54 PM
If the bug destroys gold and platinum, what is that gold and platinum turned into? Presumably the bug would excrete the gold/platinum. What's the alternative?

Keep the Pt/Au in its system for a catalyst (well, make an enzyme out of it, anyway).

tracer
2003-Mar-26, 10:17 PM
"... what benefit an organism is going to get from eating gold or platinum..."
Well, there's ORMUS (manna), for one thing.
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm
*snigger* Oh, that sure is convincing. A new state of matter for monatomic metals, that the author single-handedly discovered, which is superabundant in nature and can be found at room temperature despite having superconducting properties, and which can be yours for a low low price at any of these fine retailers. Oh, and if you eat it, it will cure your cancer.


Agreed; "Coast-toCoast" has degenerated severely since Art Bell was literally taken out.
And when Art Bell was hosting it, I suppose the show was the paragon of well-researched facts and unbiased programming, right?

TriangleMan
2003-Mar-26, 10:42 PM
Oh, and if you eat it, it will cure your cancer.



No, no, its silver that cures cancer :lol:

http://www.colloidal-silver.com/cancer.htm

sarongsong
2003-Mar-27, 07:21 AM
"...*snigger* Oh, that sure is convincing..."---tracer
It wasn't meant to be convincing; simply a possibility.
And that shoot-the-messenger attitude is exactly why Howard refused to join in here and share more about his discovery---including the 800X photos---choosing instead to follow Squink's suggestion.
If Art was so off the mark, why was he taken down?
An inefficient pancreas is what allows cancer;
pancreatin being essential to its elimination,
http://www.drkelley.com/CANLIVER55.html
so I doubt gold in any form would cure it,
but might be of value in staying in balance, especially in colloidal form.

tracer
2003-Mar-27, 03:51 PM
And that shoot-the-messenger attitude is exactly why Howard refused to join in here and share more about his discovery---including the 800X photos---choosing instead to follow Squink's suggestion.
The first thing a good scientist does when (s)he comes up with a hypothesis is to attack that hypothesis. (S)he knows that if (s)he doesn't address every possible criticism and every piece of counterevidence him/herself, then his/her colleagues are going to tear his/her hypothesis to pieces when it goes through the peer review process. Only those hypotheses that can stand up to the withering fire of such attacks survive to become accepted. And that's as it should be.

The guy who took those photos and claims they're pictures of microbes eating gold and platinum does not appear to have done anything of the sort. In fact, if he responds to criticism of his conclusions or his photographic method or whatnot as though he were under personal attack, then I have every reason to suspect his hypothesis.


If Art was so off the mark, why was he taken down?
Are you implying that the main reason people are "taken down" is because they're too good at what they do?!

An inefficient pancreas is what allows cancer;
pancreatin being essential to its elimination,
http://www.drkelley.com/CANLIVER55.html
so I doubt gold in any form would cure it,
but might be of value in staying in balance, especially in colloidal form.
And here all this time, I thought cancer was caused by an insufficient orgone energy flow (http://www.netcom.com/~rogermw/Reich/cancer.html). :roll:

sarongsong
2003-Mar-28, 04:30 AM
"The first thing a good scientist does..."---tracer
He's a photographer, not a scientist, describing what he saw and recorded over an 8-month period, drew it to the attention of his supervisors, and was blown off. If it's no big deal, then it's no big deal, and I seriously doubt whether he has any control over what ads appear where on C-to-C's website or derives any income therefrom, BUT, of course I'm wrong.

frenat
2003-Mar-28, 12:45 PM
If hes not a scientist then he probably misinterpreted what he saw and that is why he was blown off.

Donnie B.
2003-Mar-28, 07:27 PM
One other little oddity...

If there really were an organism gobbling up all the gold and platinum as fast as it could fission, then why on Earth would anybody want to buy gold or platinum? The natural reaction would be for investors to sell any Au/Pt as soon as possible, since presumably the dollar bills wouldn't be prone to damage from the same bug. The price of these commodities would fall like a, well, gold balloon.

Let's face it, this story is about as farfetched as Planet X. Gold is highly resistant to corrosion, which (along with its high conductivity) is why it is used in electrical contacts, relays, switches, edge connectors, and audiomaniac patch cables.

On the other hand, 1-mil gold wires are very tiny and fragile, and could easily fall prey to other kinds of damage - mechanical fatigue, overcurrent melting, and so on. Have any of these mechanisms been ruled out? It's also almost certain that wires for practical applications would not be pure (24-kt) gold, but an alloy -- maybe as high as 18-kt, maybe not. The minority metal could be more susceptible to corrosion than the gold. And how do we know the supposedly sealed packaging retained its integrity?

This is a perfect case for the application of the old saw: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It sure doesn't sound to me as if that evidence exists here.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-28, 09:41 PM
"... as fast as it could fission..."
Not sure what you mean by this. Howard said his photos were taken over an 8-month period, in a nitrogen-rich environment---not atmospheric.
"... wires for practical applications would not be pure (24-kt) gold, but an alloy..."
Right---the wires in question were gold-plated platinim.
"...And how do we know the supposedly sealed packaging retained its integrity?..."
Now THAT is a good point---what about if "the bug" hitch-hiked from the sensor's manufacturer's stock?
"...require extraordinary evidence..."
If you ask him in a sincere and open-minded way, Howard may choose to send you copies of the 800X photos.

tracer
2003-Mar-29, 03:47 AM
"...And how do we know the supposedly sealed packaging retained its integrity?..."
Now THAT is a good point---what about if "the bug" hitch-hiked from the sensor's manufacturer's stock?
I think the point Donnie B. was making about the package's unknown integrity was not that there was an alternate route for "the bug" to get into the wiring, but that an unsealed package would have allowed other corrosive factors to get into the wire from the outside. Since the wire probably wasn't pure gold (was it?), these more conventional corrosive factors -- which do not require the existence of any microbes -- could have damaged the wire. In other words, there may be a more mundane explanation for the damage to the wire than a gold-eating microzoan.

Squink
2003-Mar-29, 04:01 AM
The first thing a good scientist does when (s)he comes up with a hypothesis is to attack that hypothesis.
Nah. Sometimes it's more useful to spend time trying to find out what the data is actually showing you, than to debunk possibilities that you're ill-equipped to deal with.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-29, 06:19 AM
"... Since the wire probably wasn't pure gold (was it?)..."
It was gold-plated platinum---don't know the purities.
"... there may be a more mundane explanation..."---tracer
Yes, if there were no photos documenting the little bugger.
Squink earlier pointed out an article,
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF11/1188.html
that discussed actual bacteria currently in use by the mining industry to separate precious/wanted metals from ores, but they leave the metals behind, whereas Howard's discovery actually devours the metal.
The article concludes on an intriguing note, though:
"...The next step the researchers foresee is to breed better bacteria. Right now, the hard-working microminers are wild-caught, naturally occurring bacteria...Some of those better bacteria will be genetically engineered...".
Another Frankenstein on the loose, possibly? The gold industries' secrecy surely rival any black project's invisibility. Who knows?

beskeptical
2003-Mar-29, 09:32 AM
Allow me to point out a few overlooked facts here.

A picture is not evidence for what a microbe consumes. You have to measure what goes in, grow the microbes and measure what comes out if you want to determine what was consumed.

If an organism had evolved to live in 100% nitrogen but not in 78% nitrogen, where does it live now and how does it survive? And, as pointed out, if it lived in 78% nitrogen, it would be a common corrosive on Earth.

I believe gold is used in wiring because among its properties, it is resistent to corrosion, (not my field). But, I don't think it's any surprise that corrosion of all things occurs. The Mir was such a great example of that, and look how long they managed to keep it functioning. It was almost comical if it hadn't been so serious.

Bacteria were recovered that had been in space on equipment for 2 years and were revivable. They did not grow in space. Nevertheless, I think most astronomers and space scientists are aware that bacterial contamination of planets from spacecraft is a real threat. So I don't think one has to have 'pictures no one believes' to uncover this hazard.

There is no chance of confusing an imported organism from a naturally occurring one in space because the DNA would tell us which was which.

There are sulpher eating bacteria so I assume Zap was being funny, not seriously sarcastic. You were being funny weren't you, Zap?

And, most importantly, those links sarongsong has included to the cancer and diabetic sites are frightening. Where is the evidence for those claims? There is no correlation to any real physiology, it's just a bunch of magical thinking on someone's part that they somehow have discovered this thing, and suspiciously, all the medical researchers have missed it.

The physiology of cancer and diabetes is not even close to the claims made in those links. You might as well mix up a batch of 'cureseverything' and try that. The ingredients can be made up as you go. No need to test the stuff, no need for research to show it actually works. Just make it and present it on your infomercial and your're in business. Just make up a bizarre claim that sounds scientific to someone unfamiliar with science.

(And, no I am not anti-alternative medicine. I am not for any medicine that isn't evidence based, western or alternative.)

frenat
2003-Mar-29, 12:47 PM
I want to just clarify what has been pointed out here. Gold does not corrode much if at all. This is because it does not react much with other elements or compounds. It takes a large amount of energy to get it to react. This is why we are skeptical of a gold eating microbe. There just would not be enough if any energy return on consuming gold or platinum to make it worth it to the organism, especially when there are other substances more readily available.

tracer
2003-Mar-30, 12:36 AM
"... Since the wire probably wasn't pure gold (was it?)..."
It was gold-plated platinum---don't know the purities.
"... there may be a more mundane explanation..."---tracer
Yes, if there were no photos documenting the little bugger.
The only photos we've seen so far showed (A) reddish flecks next to a purplish string of beads, with an arrow pointing to one of the flecks calling it a "worm", and (B) a 600x photo of something yellow with arrows pointing at who-knows-what. (There have been mentions of 800x photos, but these have not been shown.)

I don't know what normal corrosion looks like under the microscope, or if flecks tend to break off of microscopic wires normally due to plain old metal fatigue. Nor do I know what kinds of objects that the retired photomacrographer who took these pictures typically photographed. Why does he assume that the flecks in these pictures are microscopic organisms, and not inanimate flecks?

sarongsong
2003-Mar-30, 07:20 AM
"A picture is not evidence for what a microbe consumes..."
While there's varying degrees of "evidence", the photos "indicate" that something is going on here, then, how's that? All Howard seems to be doing is looking for answers to what he feels is a genuine mystery that he was in a position to witness, up close, that MAY have significant implications to anyone depending on the integrity of gold and platinum parts in a nitrogen environment. Seeing as how there are some pretty smart cookies on this Forum, it "seemed a good idea at the time" to see if anyone here had a clue. Haven't heard from Howard in a while, but he indicated he may go to a real scientist in the field, as suggested by Squink, for a possible explanation.
You got a problem with Dr. Kelley, take it up with him; I'd love to be a fly on the wall as you explain what the "real physiology" is to him...and he ticks off his success rate to you. There ARE no infomercials, by the way.

beskeptical
2003-Mar-30, 10:39 AM
"A picture is not evidence for what a microbe consumes..."
While there's varying degrees of "evidence", the photos "indicate" that something is going on here, then, how's that?

Assuming there was 'something' to see, (since we can't really see it here), it wouldn't be a revelation. If wires corrode, you wouldn't need a picture of a mysterious event to recognize it.


All Howard seems to be doing is looking for answers to what he feels is a genuine mystery that he was in a position to witness, up close, that MAY have significant implications to anyone depending on the integrity of gold and platinum parts in a nitrogen environment.

Bacteria and other organisms are not mysteries. Corrosion is not a mystery. We are in a nitrogen environment.


You got a problem with Dr. Kelley, take it up with him; I'd love to be a fly on the wall as you explain what the "real physiology" is to him...and he ticks off his success rate to you. There ARE no infomercials, by the way.

As a medical provider and infectious disease specialist, I can say that the website information was not accurate. My question to you is what about the site or 'Dr. Kelley' has given you the confidence in his claims? Do you think it's possible that the information on that page is false?

sarongsong
2003-Mar-30, 05:45 PM
"...Assuming there was 'something' to see..."
I encourage you to write Howard and request the 800X photos WITH the explanatory diagram. Don't mean to be coy here; he has not given me permission to post them.
"... If wires corrode..."
Again, the pictures indicate otherwise. A small correction: the nitrogen-tank sensor failed in a 4-month period, not 8, as I mis-recalled here previously.
"...Bacteria and other organisms are not mysteries..."
I've not heard of any before capable of devouring gold/platinum, so it's mysterious to me. The wire was 1/1000" and the "bug" about 1/16 of that.
Without access to a micron electroscope, the pix are the best evidence he could provide of whatever "it" is's existance.
"...We are in a nitrogen environment..."
Yes, but not 100%.
"...As a medical provider and infectious disease specialist, I can say that the website information was not accurate..."
Happy to have someone with credentials aboard and appreciate your input.
The link provided was to a 169 page document. What is the very first inaccuracy you encountered?
"...what about the site or 'Dr. Kelley' has given you the confidence in his claims?..."
Conventional medicine's inability, despite the millions and millions given it, to provide anything other than stop-gap procedures; cut, radiate or chemo. You can't deny that it's become a trillion dollar industry, can you?
What's your recollection of Steve McQueen's death, if you have one?
"... Do you think it's possible that the information on that page is false?..."
Not until proven otherwise.
Thanks.

skeptED56
2003-Mar-30, 09:10 PM
Is it it me? Because if the bacteria (or whatever) requires a 100% nitrogen environment to survive, it is no danger to any other planet in our solar system (seeing as none of them have a 100% nitrogen atmosphere).

So why worry about contanimation if we have a 78% nitrogen atmosphere and this thing (if it even exists) can't survive to do any kind of damage?

Comixx
2003-Mar-30, 11:37 PM
Well, I went to the Coast-to-Coast site and looked at the pictures there. I dont know anything about microbes, but I do know a little about wires used in hostile environments from being an audio-visual technician who specialized in broadband television delivery systems (read: cable guy). I'm now a photographer, so I have some experience in a few areas necessary to begin interpreting these photos.

What I see: a silver braided wire encased in clear plastic protective sheath; discolorations on the sheath.

Anyplace where the arrows pointed to "worm"s, I saw just the same kind of discoloration as everywhere else on that sheath. If the photographs were of higher resolution and better focus, perhaps I'd see a 3-dimensional appearing object that could distinguish a "worm" from the purported corrosion trail it was leaving behind. That's not to say it's not there...I'm just saying that I cant see it in any of those pictures. It also appears to me that all the discoloration and possible microbes are on the sheathing and not actually contacting the metal wire. For that matter, how do we know that the wire is gold or platinum?

For more definitive proof, since it's said the life-cycle of these "worms" was observed, movement, growth, and changes in them and their corrosion pattern would go extremely far. Documentation of something happening besides clear plastic being rubbed/abbraided and discolored through handling.

Still researching this ORMEs stuff...so far it doesnt seem to have any basis in science, just alchemy and hollistic medicine. That David Hudson went from being a farmer to being able to analyze elements and determine their atomic properties?...several places he sites researchers and processes that helped him, yet he gives no names or papers as reference. Again, not saying it's not true, just saying I'm skeptical by nature when someone says "hey, SCIENTITSTS said I'm right" without saying WHO those scientists are or their qualifications...its similar to the "doctors" on TV who participate in infomercials...they never seem to say what their doctorate field is...reminds me of that horrible movie with Tom Cruise Eyes Wide Shut where he repeatedly gets access to places simply by saying "I'm a DOCTOR" and the other characters are suitably cowed and let him pass...

Ok, enough rambling from me ;) Hope to have better focused and sequential documentation of these microbes in the near future.

edit: after further research, I find that David Hudson's ORME substance has been implicated in the death of at least 1 AIDs patient, suspected to be involved in 2 other AIDs patients' treatments (both later died) and one dog, who also died. Analysis of the substance found no traces of iridium or rhodium, monatomic or otherwise. David Hudson just says they analyzed it wrong. Furthermore, David Hudson himself has had a heart attack and 7 bypass surgeries, yet doesnt take his own miracle cure, according to his wife, because he doesnt think anything is wrong with himself...um...ok. Really not trying to threadjack here...this just caught my interest.

sarongsong
2003-Mar-31, 05:58 AM
"...What I see: a silver braided wire encased in clear plastic protective sheath; discolorations on the sheath..."---Comixx
The "braided wire" is platinum; what's left of the gold-plated platinum sensor wire. The "sheath" IS the "worm", with a wall-thickness of about 1/16 of the wire's 1/1000" thickness. It's unfortunate the explanatory drawing did not appear on the C-to-C website, but that's the key to comprehending what's going on.
"...Hope to have better focused and sequential documentation of these microbes in the near future..."
Once again, suggest you write Howard directly, introduce yourself and request the 800X pix and the diagram---they are not on any website.
ORME was tossed in only as an example of why gold might want to be consumed, in response to a question from frenat, and not meant to mislead.
Good eye!

beskeptical
2003-Mar-31, 10:50 AM
I encourage you to write Howard and request the 800X photos WITH the explanatory diagram. Don't mean to be coy here; he has not given me permission to post them.

It wouldn't make any difference what was on the fotos. Bacteria are not mysterious, corrosion is not mysterious, you don't look at fotos to determine what the person claims. Equipment is tested to see if/when/how it will fail. Sometimes fotos are used to check for micro deterioration. Nothing in this story is worrisome.



I've not heard of any before capable of devouring gold/platinum, so it's mysterious to me. The wire was 1/1000" and the "bug" about 1/16 of that.
Without access to a micron electroscope, the pix are the best evidence he could provide of whatever "it" is's existance.

I understand it is mysterious to you. I'm just not sure why it is worrisome even if the fotos did show some 'worm' eating wires.


...We are in a nitrogen environment..."
Yes, but not 100%.
And? ..... Planets have different atmospheres. There will always be some unknowns as to equipment failures. A picture of a bug eating equipment just doesn't seem to be Earthshaking.


"...As a medical provider and infectious disease specialist, I can say that the website information was not accurate..."
Happy to have someone with credentials aboard and appreciate your input.
The link provided was to a 169 page document. What is the very first inaccuracy you encountered?

From the link: "Metabolic diseases can result from improper nutrition to the fetus due to the faulty diet of the mother during pregnancy."
Just which disease is being referred to here?

From the first page after the table of contents: "The direct cause of cancer, according to our research, is the changing of an ectopic germ cell into an ectopic trophoblast cell. An excess of female sex hormones brings about this change. Both men and women have male and female sex hormones. When this delicate male-female sex hormone balance is upset, cancer may start."

I'm sorry, but the whole paper is full of unsubstantiated and utterly false claims.

Being that this is an astronomy board, I don't think I should address the details of this paper. But I do think I should discuss what is reliable evidence vs. magical thinking.

When looking at any claims of miracle medical treatments you have to have evidence. Evidence is not people's testimonials as to the benefit they derived from a product. If it really worked you should be able to give it to or try it on a group of people at the same time give something that has no effect to another group of similar people. Neither group can know who is getting the treatment and who isn't. Then you have researchers compare the outcomes of the two groups. The researchers also must not know which persons got the treatment and which got the placebo. For the treatment to work, the group who received it must have a measurablely better outcome than the group who didn't receive it. If you can't show that you did this, you cannot claim your treatment works no matter how many testimonials you gather. And, if you do the research I described, you have to be able to show others how it was done (peer review). From there, the research has to be repeated. If it doesn't hold up to this test, it doesn't work.




"...what about the site or 'Dr. Kelley' has given you the confidence in his claims?..."
Conventional medicine's inability, despite the millions and millions given it, to provide anything other than stop-gap procedures; cut, radiate or chemo. You can't deny that it's become a trillion dollar industry, can you?

From this description you are apparently unaware of the enormous progress medicine has made. I suggest you compare the nations with the best medical care to those with the worst to get some idea of just what progress has been made. Some childhood leukemias now have a 90% cure rate. Most breast, cervical, and colon cancer if caught early with routine screening exams are completely curable. We transplant organs, cure some of the worst infectious diseases, keep AIDS patients alive for years longer than they would live without treatment.

And, actually, if you want to look at the money side of it, we spend billions of dollars every year on worthless unproven remedies because people believe unsubstantiated claims like those from your link, and on the thousands of health products that cannot substatiate their claims either like listerine, vitamin C, ionic bracelets, and so on.

Well, I obviously got on my soap box there. I did so want to keep it to science and evidence and not get off on medicine. It does go to the underlying problem though of thinking someone is presenting a good case for their claims because the errors are not evident when you can't distinguish evidence from pseudo-evidence.

TriangleMan
2003-Apr-01, 12:25 PM
To get this thread back to the microbe . . .

From my reading of the thread we apparantly have the following:

a) microbe eats gold/platimum
b) microbe lives in 100% nitrogen environment (not 78% as it would then be everywhere corroding all jewelry)

So if it eats gold/platinum and is in a 100% nitrogen environment where can it possibly get the organic chemicals needed to exist? You see all life is made up of large chemical chains that only two elements are able to do - Carbon and Silicon. On Earth I think only carbon is used. I don't care what this microbe eats, for it to grow/reproduce/exist it has to have a source of carbon, something it certainly won't get in a 100% nitrogen environment eating gold.

Beskepigal, I believe you would be better versed in biochemistry so if anything here is incorrect please let us know. But as far as I can see this microbe cannot exist under the conditions stated. Period.

Squink
2003-Apr-01, 02:47 PM
where can it possibly get the organic chemicals needed to exist?Perhaps from a fingerprint or oil stain on the sensor. It doesn't take much carbon to support the slow growth of bacteria, and it's obvious that something out of the ordinary happened to this particular bit of gold and platinum. Even if the photos actually do show bacterial damage to the sensor, there's no need yet to claim that the bugs derive their energy, or metabolic components from pure gold. The damage might well result from the chemical action of the waste products of a perfectly ordinary anaerobe on the probe's thin gold coating.

TriangleMan
2003-Apr-01, 03:15 PM
where can it possibly get the organic chemicals needed to exist?Perhaps from a fingerprint or oil stain on the sensor.

Such an instance would be extremely rare and would not explain the natural life-cycle of this organism which is theorized to exist on gold wires in a 100% nitrogen environment. And if these microbes need some unusual circumstance, such as oil from fingerprints, to exist then I don't think the person who found these microbes should be too concerned about them causing wide-scale damage to gold wiring.



It doesn't take much carbon to support the slow growth of bacteria

Yes, and my point is that there is no carbon in this environment


there's no need yet to claim that the bugs derive their energy, or metabolic components from pure gold. The damage might well result from the chemical action of the waste products of a perfectly ordinary anaerobe on the probe's thin gold coating.

Waste products imply that the microbe is eating something. I can't speculate on what it could possibly be eating as I don't think anything can survive on just gold or nitrogen without some other mechanism for obtaining key organic elements such as carbon. I have some knowledge of chemistry I'm not a biochemist so I do not know if there are any special mechanisms for an organism to survive in such environments. Right now I'm very skeptical that there are any such mechanisms.

Squink
2003-Apr-01, 04:04 PM
Such an instance would be extremely rare

Yes, and my point is that there is no carbon in this environment
Which is it, rare or none ? The sensor was rendered nonfunctional, and appears to have some sort of corrosion or growth. That failure itself is a rare event, so the phenomena which caused the failure is also rare. Improper degreasing before or after plating can cause adhesion problems for thin coatings. It can also provide substrate for bacterial growth. To decide what actually happened, you have to examine the damage.

I can't speculate on what it could possibly be eating...
I already have, and as a biochemist who’s grown more bacteria than you can shake a stick at, and seen them grow in some exceedingly odd environments, I’ve no problem with the possibility that bacteria are involved here. That’s not to say that these putative bugs are forming gold-based membranes, or using the metal as a primary electron source, but even some mundane terrestrial bacteria do corrode “inert” metals.

sarongsong
2003-Apr-02, 02:00 AM
Good news for those still interested; Howard has given permission to make the explanatory drawing (200K; msword.doc) and three photos (683K total, including the 800X; all .jpg's) available. As this BB does not allow direct posting of pix (they must be at a website to do so), if you send a request to spud@nctimes.net , these will be answered in order received, as time allows.
If you don't have MS Word, you can d/l a free Word Viewer here:
http://volusia.org/word.htm
"...Perhaps you would like to put this info up for your readers...I am sending a few more photos so those who can not see anything to
evaluate, can, in their spare time tell the rest of us what this thing is.
This first photo is the wire just a week after the Microbe started to eat
into the gold coating and the Microbe was removed to show how it starts to
eat down to the Platinum. (White lines point to holes on wire)

The next photo is the 800x showing the red "glob" (Microbe?) when it first
attached its self on the wire. (see two blue arrows)

The third photo is after several weeks. Green lines point to the "Worm"
and the Blue lines point to the wire (or what is left of it)..."---Howard

tracer
2003-Apr-02, 03:13 PM
"This first photo is the wire just a week after the Microbe started to eat into the gold coating and the Microbe was removed to show how it starts to eat down to the Platinum. (White lines point to holes on wire)..."---Howard
Wait a minute ... the photographer is saying that the Microbe was removed? Did the photographer remove the microbe himself? Did he, perhaps, put it in a Petri dish to isolate it, or put it on a microscope slide and stain it? A picture of this microbe as an isolated organism would be of great interest to such an investigation.

Reacher
2003-Apr-04, 06:58 PM
when that man was told to keep his mouth shut, im sure the conversation went like this:
"Hey, look at this! it eats gold! come have a look!"
"keep your mouth shut! we did you a favour by removing you from the Institution... but we can put you back anytime!"
"im sorry"

hmmm, this microbe thing is interesting, though.
"Scott, where is your homework!?"
"well, see, theres this homework microbe..."
(p.s: i read most of this thread, but did skip a few, so i apologise if im repeating things others have said.)

sarongsong
2003-Apr-25, 05:05 PM
Okay, the pix are posted:
http://nctimes.net/~jimbud/Golbset

tracer
2003-Apr-25, 10:29 PM
Hmmm ... okay, if the caption on the upper-right picture is accurate, it does look like there's something "pitting" the wire (assuming the removal process he used didn't make its own gouges into the wire's surface).

What makes him think that this is a microbe and not just a spot on the wire where the gold coating happened to be extremely thin and a conventional non-living corrosive agent worked its way in?

BigJim
2003-Apr-26, 12:16 AM
I still don't unserstand why this has to be a microbe. As TriangleMan pointed out, there would be no nutritional value in eating gold or platinum. All life-forms we know of are carbon based. Gold and platinum are pure elements and cannot be broken down into anything of value for life, including sucrose, carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, water, glucose, or fructose.
Also, why would it require a 100% nitrogen atmosphere?

That would:
a) preclude the microbes from existence practically anywhere
b) raise serious questions as to where it evolved


where can it possibly get the organic chemicals needed to exist?
Perhaps from a fingerprint or oil stain on the sensor.

Even so, that would show that the microbe does not subsist on gold or platinum. The pictures I've seen so far have been questionably identified. I have yet to see a picture with a characteristic of life. I'm not a biologist either, but I have a pretty good idea of what a microbe should look like, and that does not look eukaryotic or prokaryotic to me.

Why does figure 1 show a microbe eating gold? Assuming the object in question is a gold-coated wire, it looks more to me like a spot or maybe just a microbe residing on it. Figure 2 does not prove it was eating it. The microbe, if that's what it was, could have been secreting corrosive chemicals but I still do not see why it would attempt to eat gold. Here is where my lack of true biology knowledge comes in; I'm more into the astronomical part of the question. Suffice it to say that these are probably just badly identified photos.


"The above and below images show a "Worm" or microbe eating the wire of a Liquid Nitrogen Apollo Space Craft Fuel Sensor...This thing will destroy any Gold or Platinum computer part on any space craft or probe. If on board a Probe that lands on a planet that has a Nitrogen atmosphere it could contaminate that planet and also provide a false discovery of "Life" on the planet

First, there was no liquid nitrogen on Apollo spacecraft. They carried liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen, but not liquid nitrogen. Early in the space race, the Soviets decided to pressurize their spacecraft with nitrogren and oxygen but the Americans opted for pure oxygen, which alloweda lower partial pressure and therefor less weight to carry into space. Also, from what I have seen, even if this microbe did eat gold and platinum, it does not make huge holes in the objects. If this thing really subsists in pure nitrogen, it would die either in space or on a planet. Yes, microbes survived on Surveyor 3 and were brought back to Earth on Apollo 12, but they were in a spore form, certainly not active. And since it would be virtually impossible to have an atmosphere made wholly of nitrogen, then I do not see why this microbe would take over an entire planet. Certainly it is not a threat anywhere in our solar system.

sarongsong
2003-Apr-29, 08:09 AM
"First, there was no liquid nitrogen on Apollo spacecraft...."---Big Jim
Oh.
"... The Apollo flight-control system used in Phase I of the DFBW program had been used previously on the Lunar Module and was incredibly reliable. The DSKY was one element of the system. Also part of the fly-by-wire control system was the inertial platform. Both the computer and the inertial platform required a cooling system that used liquid nitrogen to keep the system within temperature limits..."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?S13353064

tracer
2003-Apr-29, 02:31 PM
I doubt that the cooling system immersed the computer and the inertial platform in liquid nitrogen, with their wires laid bare to it. (The liquid water-and-ethylene-glycol cooling system in a car doesn't bathe the cylinders in coolant, it runs the coolant next to the cylinders in a sealed pipe shaped in such a way that the rate of heat exchange is high.)

In other words, even if there was liquid N2 aboard an Apollo spacecraft, there probably weren't any gold or gold-plated wires in the liquid N2.

beskeptical
2003-Apr-29, 09:17 PM
Sarongsong,

In addition to what Tracer said, liquid nitrogen is what we use in medicine to store and preserve DNA samples. It keeps the samples at ~-70F. While life does function near 0.0F, it does not function in liquid nitrogen temperatures. Sorry.

sarongsong
2003-Apr-29, 10:31 PM
My point was to refute at least 2 claims here that no liquid nitrogen was used on Apollo missions.

BigJim
2003-Apr-29, 11:17 PM
But, regardless of where these supposed microbes were found, you haven't adressed the question of what they would subsisit on or what nutritional balue they would get from eating gold or platinum.

sarongsong
2003-Apr-30, 01:11 AM
All I have is a fascination for this unknown phenomenom.
Answers will have to come from a bigger mind than mine; I'm simply enjoying the ride. Here's Pseudomonas stutzeria, for instance, "...A strain of bacteria that can manufacture tiny crystals of silver..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/533416.stm
...something that is now known.
Howard's find is unknown, and therefore a genuine mystery that has POSSIBLE implications for those relying on gold or platinum components, the space program being but one representative who also uses liquid nitrogen, an apparent requirement for "its" existance.

beskeptical
2003-May-01, 03:32 AM
All I have is a fascination for this unknown phenomenom.
Answers will have to come from a bigger mind than mine; I'm simply enjoying the ride. Here's Pseudomonas stutzeria, for instance, "...A strain of bacteria that can manufacture tiny crystals of silver..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/533416.stm
...something that is now known.
Howard's find is unknown, and therefore a genuine mystery that has POSSIBLE implications for those relying on gold or platinum components, the space program being but one representative who also uses liquid nitrogen, an apparent requirement for "its" existance.

I for one am not criticizing you, and especially not your curiosity. I think most of the folks in this thread are merely trying to point out the factual science over the pseudoscience.

The way this was originally presented was as a 'discovery' that 'Howard' found and no one paid attention to.

That is a red flag. It doesn't mean Howard is not correct.

Some people have the stereotypical view of scientists as being unable to seek out and accept new ideas. That is crazy. Science is all about new ideas. And if there is a little bit of supporting evidence, some people will listen to any idea no matter how radical. So when people claim to have discovered something and 'no one will listen', 99% of the time scientists aren't listening because the discovery is not.

But we are looking for that 1% where something new turns up. I absolutely love finding someone who has made a new discovery.

I did look at what you presented. I think the red flag has so far proven its validity.

As far as the liquid nitrogen, you provided good links to back that up that it is used on space craft. You provided good links to back up that microbes can consume silver. This is excellent.

Tracer pointed out that liquid nitrogen wouldn't be used in direct contact with computer hardware and I pointed out that microbes absolutely cannot function at the temperature of liquid nitrogen.

If you want to look at corrosion of equipment in space, you set up an experiment to look at corrosion of equipment in space. Pictures might be used to evaluate micro-erosion. I have seen electron mircoscope fotos of minute meteorite impacts on the surfaces of space craft, for example.

If you want to look at microbe growth, you set up the conditions you want to study and grow the microbes. This is a gross oversimplification but my point is the evidence presented by Howard is not evidence of the conclusion Howard is drawing.

I think it's great that you opened this thread to look at this subject. I also think you are doing a good job trying to find the science to support the claims. Try to evaluate the ideas folks are presenting. Sometimes they sound more critical than helpful. I just ignore that. It isn't always what they were intending, and if they did intend it, it reflects badly on that person not on you.

sarongsong
2003-May-01, 04:15 AM
Thanks, beskeptical, I think that's the kind of response that may draw Howard to join in. Had you found yourself in a similar position (photographer) at the time, how might you have proceeded?

beskeptical
2003-May-01, 06:50 AM
Thanks, beskeptical, I think that's the kind of response that may draw Howard to join in. Had you found yourself in a similar position (photographer) at the time, how might you have proceeded?

You are most welcome.

I already have a lot of expertise in microbiology so I would have to learn more about computer hardware if I had concerns about corrosion. If I were a computer specialist I would start learning more about microbiology.

If I wasn't taken seriously, I'd ask for reasons then I'd go validate or refute the reasons. And, then I'd either learn and go on or I'd take the documentation back and share it.