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randb
2006-Apr-12, 04:52 PM
For a while now, I've been considering moving to Europe. I just wanna experience something different. Taking up a job in Europe for a few years could be fun...rite? Has anyone on here done it before? If so, do you recommend it? Which cities in Europe are the best to live in? (Other than the ones in the UK and Germany) Oh....and do engineers get paid well there? :D

Lianachan
2006-Apr-12, 05:11 PM
I thought that Amsterdam (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=722544&postcount=10) suited you down to the ground?

:)

BenderBendingRodriguez
2006-Apr-12, 05:15 PM
Belgium: Flemish people tend to be excellent English-speakers, and there's everything from quaint little towns to metropoles as Antwerp or Brussels.

And yeah, normally, engineers usually get paid pretty well, AFAIK.

randb
2006-Apr-12, 05:29 PM
Lianachan: Yes, Amsterdam is on my list. :)

Rodriguez: I don't have a problem learning the language. I wanna move to a non english-speaking city. Not too small like the one I live in right now, and not too big like NY or LA. BTW, IMO the best city I've ever visited in the US is Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

Could anyone tell me how much an engineer would generally get paid in Europe? Also, are European cities more expensive to live in, compared to an average US city? $1500 is good enough to cover all living expenses in the average US city.

Lianachan
2006-Apr-12, 05:38 PM
I'm curious - why the aversion to the UK?

BenderBendingRodriguez
2006-Apr-12, 05:39 PM
Dutch isn't learned very fast, but over here in Kortrijk, you can get by quite easily (in the beginning, then) with English and French.

There aren't any cities here as big as LA or NY, and wouldn't know how big SF, SD is, so can't say which ones would be perfect here in Belgium ;)

As far as engineering-wages are concerned: I wouldn't know, I don't know any engineers personally.

And living expenses: depends (ofcourse) on how much you spend. I'm unemployed now and have more or less 900€ per month, which is good enough for my appartment, bills, internet and having food beyond water and bread. I earned a good 1200€/month after taxes at my previous job (which was unskilled laborer, so engineer would get more) and that was more than adequate to live life as I wanted without any financial problems.


You might find a site like http://www.expatica.com interesting.

randb
2006-Apr-12, 05:46 PM
Too much racism. (UK and Germany) Also UK is probably very similar to the US...except for the accent and a few other things. BTW... I love the British accent.

Lianachan
2006-Apr-12, 05:53 PM
Too much racism. (UK and Germany) Also UK is probably very similar to the US...except for the accent and a few other things. BTW... I love the British accent.
That depends on where you go, really, and I think you'll find a fairly standard average level of racism all across Europe.

There is practically no racism where I am, for example.

Oh - unless you're English of course ;)

randb
2006-Apr-12, 05:58 PM
That depends on where you go, really, and I think you'll find a fairly standard average level of racism all across Europe.

There is practically no racism where I am, for example.

Oh - unless you're English of course ;)

I'm assuming you're from Scotland...

Lianachan
2006-Apr-12, 06:08 PM
I'm assuming you're from Scotland...

Yup, a Highlander. Depending on what sort of engineer you are, there could be plenty of jobs around here for you too.

JohnD
2006-Apr-12, 06:33 PM
The trouble with living in Europe is that when fog closes the English Channel, you're cut off from the mainland.

But seriously, the UK and Germany are too racist for you? Well, bad luck, for if you do your homework, you'll find that there are racists everywhere, in Europe, as much as anywhere. No need to look outside the US for reports either.
See this : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5709026/site/newsweek
Or this: http://www.newstodaynet.com/guest/1912gu1.htm
Or this: http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/facing.hate/stories/spain.greenhouse.racism/

I could go on, just Google for "Racism" and any country you fancy, yes even Ireland, and I'm not talking Protestants and Catholics. Oh, and wasn't there a little matter of 'ethnic cleansing' in Eastern Europe a few years ago?

Australia is probably the country with the least class ridden society (that needs engineers), including the USA, and even Oz has a sad history about the Aboriginies.

John

farmerjumperdon
2006-Apr-12, 06:34 PM
There aren't any cities here as big as LA or NY, and wouldn't know how big SF, SD is,

How big, and more to the point, how cosmopolitan is Sioux Falls?

A good indicator is that their big attraction is a place called The Corn Palace. That's right, a Castle of Corn, a Passel of Tassels, a literal Cornucopia of Kernels & Cobs.

Actually, the big attraction is no state income tax. Lots of NWA pilots set up a hunting shack over the border to avoid MN income tax.

randb
2006-Apr-12, 06:56 PM
Dutch isn't learned very fast, but over here in Kortrijk, you can get by quite easily (in the beginning, then) with English and French.

There aren't any cities here as big as LA or NY, and wouldn't know how big SF, SD is, so can't say which ones would be perfect here in Belgium ;)

As far as engineering-wages are concerned: I wouldn't know, I don't know any engineers personally.

And living expenses: depends (ofcourse) on how much you spend. I'm unemployed now and have more or less 900 per month, which is good enough for my appartment, bills, internet and having food beyond water and bread. I earned a good 1200/month after taxes at my previous job (which was unskilled laborer, so engineer would get more) and that was more than adequate to live life as I wanted without any financial problems.


You might find a site like http://www.expatica.com interesting.
I would assume that 3500-4000 euro / month is the average starting salary for an engineer in Europe.

Gillianren
2006-Apr-12, 07:02 PM
Hey, randb, where exactly are you now? I cannot but assume you're in eastern WA, if you haven't visited Seattle (which is bigger, I believe, than Sioux Falls. Certainly more cosmopolitan!).

randb
2006-Apr-12, 07:09 PM
Hey, randb, where exactly are you now? I cannot but assume you're in eastern WA, if you haven't visited Seattle (which is bigger, I believe, than Sioux Falls. Certainly more cosmopolitan!).
Pullman.... I've lived in Bellevue for a while. I'm not saying that bigger is better. I really dont have an explanation as to why I like Sioux Falls... but it felt really nice to be there. Coeur D'Alene seemed like a nice place too.

ToSeek
2006-Apr-12, 07:47 PM
Last time I was in London, salaries seemed low and costs seemed high. I'd love to spend, say, six months or a year working there, though, and spend the weekends seeing the sights.

Arneb
2006-Apr-12, 08:16 PM
Too much racism. (UK and Germany) Also UK is probably very similar to the US...except for the accent and a few other things. BTW... I love the British accent.

Sad to read that. I don't think Germany is more racist than other countries. There is maybe a publicity bias at work here. Racist crime in Germany tends to attract a lot of coverage even if it is not more frequent than in other European contries (or in the US, for that matter).

I'd like to invite you to have a look. It's not at all a bad place to live. And the cost of living has always seemed to me a tad lower than in other European states, as long as you avoid posh places like Munich or Frankfurt.

The size of our cities should appeal to you as well. A lot of cities are in the 100,000 to 1M range, and well suited for comfortable living, often situated in attractive landscapes. You could start off with English without many difficulties (PhD students and postdocs in our labs at Erlangen University do that regularly for several years), although help from a native with the paperwork would come in handy. Many major cities harbour Goethe institutes (http://www.goethe.de/enindex.htm) where language acquisition at very good levels is possible.

An engineer should (after taxes and social insurance) have noticeably more than the equivalent of $ 1500 in his wallet. Health isurance with good coverage comes automatically with every employee job below a certain (high) income threshold.

A very significant problem could be that unemployment is high, and good jobs aren't easy to come by.

BenderBendingRodriguez
2006-Apr-12, 10:25 PM
I would assume that 3500-4000 euro / month is the average starting salary for an engineer in Europe.

Found a site listing the average starting salaries of beginning engineers. Depends mostly on the diploma you have: university, college long type or college short type:

http://www.vacature.com/scripts/indexpage.asp?headingID=21240

I'm not quite sure how to translate the names of the different kinds exactly from Dutch to English, but here are some:

Civil engineer (university): 2.520
Bio engineer (university): 2.284
Industrial engineer: 2.071

I'm not sure if these are before or after taxes, though, and the jobs seem to be grouped together quite broadly. 3.5-4k definitely is a lot...


As said, however, it might be more problematic to finding a job you like, especially in a country that doesn't use English as it's first language (even though most people are good enough in it for basic use, and most younger and higher educated people are more than good enough to use it in normal conversations)

randb
2006-Apr-12, 11:50 PM
Found a site listing the average starting salaries of beginning engineers. Depends mostly on the diploma you have: university, college long type or college short type:

http://www.vacature.com/scripts/indexpage.asp?headingID=21240

I'm not quite sure how to translate the names of the different kinds exactly from Dutch to English, but here are some:

Civil engineer (university): 2.520
Bio engineer (university): 2.284
Industrial engineer: 2.071

I'm not sure if these are before or after taxes, though, and the jobs seem to be grouped together quite broadly. 3.5-4k definitely is a lot...


As said, however, it might be more problematic to finding a job you like, especially in a country that doesn't use English as it's first language (even though most people are good enough in it for basic use, and most younger and higher educated people are more than good enough to use it in normal conversations)

Maybe I'll stick to my original plan. Start a business. Make 10 million $$$. Retire. And do what I like the most...for the rest of my life.
$10 million = $200,000 x 50 yrs
$10 million = $100,000 x 100 yrs.

And I'm pretty sure that I wont live for more than another 60-70 yrs.

crosscountry
2006-Apr-12, 11:53 PM
I am considering the same thing, only I would be studying abroad to finish my Masters degree. I found out today that I was accepted to the University of Stuttgart in Germany.


Maybe I could learn some more about it before leaving in August.

randb
2006-Apr-12, 11:57 PM
I am considering the same thing, only I would be studying abroad to finish my Masters degree. I found out today that I was accepted to the University of Stuttgart in Germany.


Maybe I could learn some more about it before leaving in August.


First, Congrats!!!! I'm sure it'll be an awesome experience for you. So what are you gonna study there? German schools have really great engineering programs.

crosscountry
2006-Apr-13, 12:03 AM
Physics is my field. They have a really good school for science there. My credits should transfer directly. I may take Astronomy courses or Geology courses if offered. (physics related of course) Plus I will be learning German.

Lord Jubjub
2006-Apr-13, 03:49 AM
(PhD students and postdocs in our labs at Erlangen University do that regularly for several years),

OK, this caught my attention purely because I was stationed at Ferris Barracks (U.S. Army) in the late 1980s. I actually walked by that campus on more than one occasion.

But I must point this out about German communities--they seemd to me to have even more rules to live by than even the most strict U.S. Deed-restricted community?

Arneb
2006-Apr-14, 09:12 PM
OK, this caught my attention purely because I was stationed at Ferris Barracks (U.S. Army) in the late 1980s. I actually walked by that campus on more than one occasion.

But I must point this out about German communities--they seemd to me to have even more rules to live by than even the most strict U.S. Deed-restricted community?

that has changed, I would say - when I recently visited the US, I found the relationship reversed - At every occasion you are told what you should avoid, what is known to the State of California to be harmful and what you can't do here or anywhere. I find it paranoid that you can't have a beer and a fag except inside private property - drinking alcohol is forbidden outside, while smoking is forbidden in publicly accessible buildings - now this is what I call deed-restricted....

The only community rules I have to live by here in Fuerth are the extensive no-parking zones and that the tenants of the apparments are expected to take turns sweeping the entrance hallway and courtyard and move out the (Ah OK: Separated garbage collection!) garbage bins on the day they are picked up. *shrug*.

enginelessjohn
2006-Apr-18, 11:43 AM
Re Racism in the UK, having just spent a week in the US, my perception would be that the UK is much more multiculturally integrated, and while there are sections of the press and public that are tragically narrowminded in that direction, the vast majority of the people in the UK abhor any form of racism.

Re Engineer Salaries, a graduate engineer in the UK could expect to earn around £20k per annum in their first job, before tax. It would take about 3 to 5 years experience to get to the £29k to £33k level. European salaries aren't wildly different as far as I can remember, but you aren't going to be rich as an engineer.

If you do decide to apply (I seem to be giving randb a bunch of career advice recently :) ) make sure you give lots of info about your degree, as a foreign university on a CV doesn't mean much if it isn't one of the big famous ones.

Cheers
John

Eric Vaxxine
2006-Apr-18, 12:29 PM
Yes, you should see Europe. The world is becoming so homogenised (ie: the Euro) get here quick. The UK is a great place to visit, I agree with one bauter, Belgium has a lot to offer. History, language, good food, centrally located, a Great Formula 1 track, the sea, the Ardenne.

And you are within walking distance of France, Holland, Germany, Luxenbourg.
Not too difficult to reach Poland, Denmark, Austria etc
Ideally, work for a company that has numerous European offices, that way you can possible relocate every 9 months or so.

Good luck

randb
2006-Apr-18, 01:03 PM
Thanks for the info guys!!!

crosscountry
2006-Apr-18, 04:02 PM
I've been doing some looking. From Central Europe you can get nearly everwhere in less than 1000 miles. 2 Days drive will put you all the way across the continent and through 3 -7 countries.

Eric Vaxxine
2006-Apr-18, 04:21 PM
I've been doing some looking. From Central Europe you can get nearly everwhere in less than 1000 miles. 2 Days drive will put you all the way across the continent and through 3 -7 countries.

You'll be grateful for the Euro, languages changing over borders is amazing.
There is the old joke isn't there?

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? English

crosscountry
2006-Apr-18, 04:41 PM
yea, how true that is.

HenrikOlsen
2006-Apr-21, 04:17 PM
There is the old joke isn't there?

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? English
Except in most european countries when I hear that joke, the last nationality listed is French, not English.

Richard of Chelmsford
2006-Apr-22, 06:16 PM
I've always thought London was a bit over-rated myself, but then I'm from the North of England.

Try some of the lesser UK cities, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Carlisle, Newcastle. But avoid Birmingham and the midlands.

how about Paris?

mugaliens
2006-Apr-22, 06:38 PM
The trouble with living in Europe is that when fog closes the English Channel, you're cut off from the mainland.

Oh, good Lord - you're killing me!

Seriously, as an engineer or any other U.S. folk overseas, you can expect to earn less income and pay higher prices, on average, than you would back in the states. The biggest additional cost is gas, followed by housing. Other items are less costly, but you can obtain similar quality at Walmart, so...

Having said all that, it's a resoudingly fun time - plenty of good friends and comraderie!

Definately worth the expense!

randb
2006-Apr-22, 11:28 PM
I was thinking Amsterdam or Prague.... Isn't Paris extremely expensive?

crosscountry
2006-Apr-22, 11:40 PM
I hear Prague is really cheap.

chico
2006-Oct-10, 07:22 PM
Hey all, I have read the postings and YEs, I lived in Belgium for 7 yrs, amazing place and truly a hidden treasure in Europe. Most people never go there and really central to it all. I have a question... I am living in CA and wanting to move back to Europe soon. I have been trying to figure out the entire "where to put my gear" scenario and can't figure it out. I was thinking of storage and then coming to get it when I need it etc. Any ideas or advice? Thx....ciao

Chico

crosscountry
2006-Oct-10, 09:30 PM
My friends and family all have a little of my things. If you do it that way you'll have to visit them more often. ;)

V-GER
2006-Oct-12, 12:26 PM
I lived and worked for six months in a small town in southern England and as a foreigner there myself I enjoyed my stay very much. So I can definately recommend southern England(well, maybe not Portsmouth or Uxbridge but still...)

Lots of interesting sites within short distances to visit.

mugaliens
2006-Oct-12, 08:39 PM
For a while now, I've been considering moving to Europe. I just wanna experience something different. Taking up a job in Europe for a few years could be fun...rite? Has anyone on here done it before? If so, do you recommend it? Which cities in Europe are the best to live in? (Other than the ones in the UK and Germany) Oh....and do engineers get paid well there? :D

I have several US friends who've made Europe their home. Two as bartenders, one as an engineer, another as a corporate executive, two as marketing exutives, and another as an insurance rep.

I think you best bet lies in ensuring your talents are applicable to any local requirement.

galacsi
2006-Oct-12, 08:45 PM
POrtugal,Spain ,France,Swiss,Italy,Greece ???? Too hot countries ? Too much wine , not enough beer ?