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View Full Version : Superman is gay? Huh???



Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 03:26 PM
Hey All,

I don't pay too much attention to media news, so I'm wondering where all of the 'Superman is gay' talk is coming from. I mean, I not a comics expert, but Supes has always seemed to have a thing for the ladies (witness Lana Lang and Lois Lane).

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-21, 03:44 PM
Because he wears skintight, rainbow coloured clothes, has a secret he won't share with his nearest and dearest, and is obviously into body culture?

Seriously though, the link between superheroes and homosexuality is oft discussed. Bryan Singer, the director of X-Men and Superman Returns, is gay, and he has mentioned that he feels connected to the idea of mutants and the need to keep a "secret identity" from the rest of the world.

The line in X2, when Bobby's mother asks him "Have you tried NOT being a mutant?" is a parody of the question gays are often asked by their parents when they first come out: "Have you tried not being gay?"

Doodler
2006-Jun-21, 03:47 PM
Oy, you'd think this would get old after the Batman and Robin lunacy...

Doodler
2006-Jun-21, 03:47 PM
*grumbles something about internet connection anomolies*

Double post, please remove.

Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 03:55 PM
Because he wears skintight, rainbow coloured clothes, has a secret he won't share with his nearest and dearest, and is obviously into body culture?

Eh, that's kinda weak. Besides, for that to work he would have had to 'come out' to Ma and Pa Kent instead of them telling him the truth of who he was. It's much closer to what adopted children go through.

I had a feeling that part of it was because Singer was directing. I can remember the crap people said about X-Men (not only because of Singer but also because of McKellum and Stewart)

And for the record, I thought the scene in X2 with Bobby and his folks was priceless.

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jun-21, 03:59 PM
I don't pay too much attention to media news, so I'm wondering where all of the 'Superman is gay' talk is coming from.What talk is that?

soylentgreen
2006-Jun-21, 04:03 PM
If you catch any of the unbelievable torrent of "fanboy" noise(particularly around the IMDB or AICN) it seems that the director of SUPERMAN RETURNS, Bryan Singer is gay.

The vibe seems to be that Superman's issues, like many of X-Men characters crises can be seen as parables for the homosexual experience(notably, of course, in the US). Singer's films often identify strongly with the outsider, so alot of people are making connections that may or may not be intended. Of course, these characters could represent "outsiders" of any type, but with the X-Men, especially the second film(and to a degree, the third), the homosexual parallel is fairly clear.

Also if this incarnation of Superman is depicted as a little less "beefcake" and a little more in touch with his feminine(kryptonian-feminine, that is)side that could account for some questioning SUPERMAN RETURNS portrayal.

I find it odd because to me Superman has always smacked of the Christ persona. The films I-IV, despite growing exponentially saccharine, seemed to float the element in and out when needed. They tried very hard to make him the kind of guy the whole world could like...but in the end, it came across like trying to sell other countries on setting up McDonalds franchises. Not so much "a Superman for all peoples" as "All peoples are welcome to like American Superman".

SUPERMAN RETURNS seems like it's trying to move what is essentially a very American character away from his Monroe Doctriny, Uncle Sammyness to a more universal persona. In the trailer, at least, they have clearly avoided the full tagline that's been used for decades"Truth..Justice...and all that other stuff" What other stuff...it was one more thing...The American Way. That last time that kind of naked jingoism worked was with Rambo in 1985.

Seems that way...but that's just me.


ps I absolutely loathe it when someone refers to the character as "Supes" :mad:

Kesh
2006-Jun-21, 04:10 PM
It's a popular fictional character in the media. There's always going to be "Character X represents Y" articles around.

He's represented Jesus, gays, dictators, gladiators, soldiers, victims, and anything else you can imagine.

For a more humorous answer, I would link to a certain site, but it would violate the BA's "family friendly" rule. Just do a search for "Superman is a ****" on Google. I'm sure your imagination can fill in the asterisks. ;)

Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 04:11 PM
In the trailer, at least, they have clearly avoided the full tagline that's been used for decades"Truth..Justice...and all that other stuff"

Well, isn't it Daily Planet editor Perry White saying that? If so, I wouldn't read too much into it- Perry is a well known curmudgeon.



ps I absolutely loathe it when someone refers to the character as "Supes" :mad:

Does that include when other DC characters like Lobo uses it? :)

Kesh
2006-Jun-21, 04:12 PM
ps I absolutely loathe it when someone refers to the character as "Supes" :mad:

You must fall over foaming at the mouth when folks call him "the big blue Boy Scout" then. :D

dirty_g
2006-Jun-21, 04:12 PM
I dont know about Superman, but I do know spiderman will make you gay http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/dadyes/sp.html

Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 04:15 PM
For a more humorous answer, I would link to a certain site, but it would violate the BA's "family friendly" rule. Just do a search for "Superman is a ****" on Google. I'm sure your imagination can fill in the asterisks. ;)

Oh Lord that page is funny. I once spent an afternoon going through that page. Long live National Lampoon!

For those who don't know, the page show a wide variety of Golden Age Superman comic covers where Superman is doing something nasty to Lois, Jimmy, and sometime even Batman. The covers were a hook to get you to pick up the comic and see why Superman would act that way, but the sheer volume of them tell you how many times they used that cliche.

Argos
2006-Jun-21, 04:19 PM
There talks about Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid too [after Brokeback Mountain].

Tog
2006-Jun-21, 04:28 PM
I dont know about Superman, but I do know spiderman will make you gay http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/dadyes/sp.html

I used that without sound as my City of Heroes avatar for about 14 minutes once...

On those borads, we've gotten in to many superhero discussions (the majority of the board is comic geeks afterall) but preference has never come up. I didn think it was interesting that in a choice between Superman and Batman the overwhelming majority chose Batman if we had to have a 'real' comic heor running about.

I also posted the question I saw from an old thread on here over there, about a fight between Worf and Wolverine. Worf goes down in under 10 seconds. The Wolverine Data battle lasted longer but Data ultimately lost.

RE: Superman being gay I don't see it. although some of these vintage comics covers (http://www.superdickery.com/other/1.html) would seem that he had reason to be...

NEOWatcher
2006-Jun-21, 04:57 PM
Gay?
I thought he was a religious figure (just like everything else). :think:

Some see hero of 'Superman Returns' as Christ figure (http://www.wkyc.com/news/watercooler/watercooler_article.aspx?storyid=53785)

soylentgreen
2006-Jun-21, 05:29 PM
ps I absolutely loathe it when someone refers to the character as "Supes" :mad:


Does that include when other DC characters like Lobo uses it? :)


You must fall over foaming at the mouth when folks call him "the big blue Boy Scout" then. :D

If it's used by a character within the comics universe that seems relevant, still irritating as hell, but relevant. When it's just a normal live human being, though, trying to be clever by implying a kind of faux-familiarity with the character..well that just makes my teeth hurt. Calling Batman "Bats"(or worse "Batsy")is a real close second!

The other nicknames, well, I don't know why, but they just don't rub me the wrong way. "Big blue Boy Scout", "Man of Steel"(Hello Joe Stalin!), "Last Son of Krypton", etc...no effect really.

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-21, 05:42 PM
Eh, that's kinda weak.

It was also a joke :)


I had a feeling that part of it was because Singer was directing. I can remember the crap people said about X-Men (not only because of Singer but also because of McKellum and Stewart)

Eh? Patrick Stewart isn't gay. He has played gays though.


And for the record, I thought the scene in X2 with Bobby and his folks was priceless.

Yeah. The actress played her as utterly clueless. :D

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-21, 05:49 PM
The other nicknames, well, I don't know why, but they just don't rub me the wrong way. "Big blue Boy Scout", "Man of Steel"(Hello Joe Stalin!), "Last Son of Krypton", etc...no effect really.

"Superman" was a Nietzschean concept appropriated by the Nazis. All the odder because the two kids who created Superman were both Jewish.

Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 05:52 PM
Eh? Patrick Stewart isn't gay. He has played gays though.

Okaaay, Carl is clueless. I am probibly mixing him up with one of his characters. Bad, bad Carl!

Gillianren
2006-Jun-21, 06:01 PM
There talks about Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid too [after Brokeback Mountain].

And in The Celluloid Closet, which came out in the 80s. (Okay, to be fair, they don't really suggest Butch and Sundance were gay, just that there's a lot of chemistry between Newman and Redford, a fact confirmed by Paul Newman's wife, Joanne Woodward.)

Oh, and Matherly: It's "McKellan," actually. Who, as I understand it, came out so he could be the first openly gay man to receive some honour he was going to be receiving.

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-21, 06:29 PM
Actually, it's "McKellen".

Peteman
2006-Jun-21, 06:29 PM
"Superman" was a Nietzschean concept appropriated by the Nazis. All the odder because the two kids who created Superman were both Jewish.

Not really. I understood Superman was meant as a royal "**** you!" to the Nazi ideaology.

soylentgreen
2006-Jun-21, 06:47 PM
"Superman" was a Nietzschean concept appropriated by the Nazis. All the odder because the two kids who created Superman were both Jewish.

Press-Ganged, like the age old swastika symbol.

When they weren't busy appropiating art treasures, other nations lands and slave labor, these guys had no problem cherry-picking the desired elements from many different and far flung sources or bending rules to accomodate needs(They did after all name the Japanese as something approximating "Honorary Aryans"). Other draftees include Bach(as a symbol of nationalism?), Wagner(of course, though I personally don't think he would have had anything to do with them),

Quite upside down to have an entire nations worth of people convinced to aspire to the nordic "superman" concept, when the whole project was lead by a failed meglomaniacal painter, a drug-fiend ex-air ace, a brutish closet-homosexual street brawler, a troll-like womanizing zealot state mouth-piece with a taste for Jewish actresses, a sycophantic dullard lackey and a failed chicken farmer. NONE of whom even remotely resembled the national ideal.

Yet proof that when times are real tough, you definately DO NOT want the real losers with severe grudges to form any kind of political party whatsoever.

HenrikOlsen
2006-Jun-21, 07:39 PM
And in The Celluloid Closet, which came out in the 80s. (Okay, to be fair, they don't really suggest Butch and Sundance were gay, just that there's a lot of chemistry between Newman and Redford, a fact confirmed by Paul Newman's wife, Joanne Woodward.)

Oh, and Matherly: It's "McKellan," actually. Who, as I understand it, came out so he could be the first openly gay man to receive some honour he was going to be receiving.
From what I understand from an interview I saw with him, he came out in protest against a law Thatcher tried to push though legislation to make "public promotion of homosexuality" a crime.

Ara Pacis
2006-Jun-21, 08:10 PM
Well, to bring it back to science a bit, we could compare the origin of homosexuality and superheroes. If homosexuality is not a choice because it's genetic then the genetic mutants would be the most analogous. I'm not sure about aquired mutancy, though.

I'm not sure that Batman would be analogous with gay. I'm not sure that you could claim one facet of his life is a lie and the other is real, he is equally Bruce Wayne and Batman. He runs around at night in a mask, but he doesn't really have super powers either, so he's not a superhero in that sense.

Superman is interesting since his alter-ego, as mentioned in Kill Bill #2, is his "normal" side, not his superhero side. He has to hide his reality, not his fabrication. One the other hand, his super powers are a result of environment and he would lose those powers other places.

Matherly
2006-Jun-21, 08:22 PM
As Ara Pacis mentioned, Bill (of Kill Bill fame) maintained that Clark Kent was Superman's disguise. I disagree. A couple of DC authors explored this and came to the conclusion that Clark is who Ka-El sees himself as, and Superman is the alter-ego.

In Sandman, Neil Gaiman brilliently portrays this by showing a very normal Clark in the Dreaming (i.e. Clark is who he is when Ka-El dreams), and a non-human looking Batman (i.e. Batman is who he is when Bruce dreams)

Ara Pacis
2006-Jun-21, 09:38 PM
That sounds like a psychological issue, not a physical issue. Physically, Superman is super despite his self-image. There is probably some long pseudo-greek word for that condition, possibly cognative dissonance.

dirty_g
2006-Jun-21, 10:14 PM
spiderman found his friends http://www.spacespider.net/misc-dancing-gay-spiderman-and-friends.php

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jun-21, 11:19 PM
I'm not sure that Batman would be analogous with gay. I'm not sure that you could claim one facet of his life is a lie and the other is real, he is equally Bruce Wayne and Batman. He runs around at night in a mask, but he doesn't really have super powers either, so he's not a superhero in that sense.I think that depends on how you interpret the analogy. When I first read what you wrote about Batman, I thought it was actually a good analogy for homosexuality, particularly the bolded sentence.

Lianachan
2006-Jun-21, 11:59 PM
Hmm - Batman asks himself a good question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Batman_panel_-_Robin_what_have_I_done_to_you.jpg).

(I'm not saying Batman is gay - just the picture I've linked to is often offered as circumstantial evidence by those who do)

Ara Pacis
2006-Jun-22, 12:25 AM
I think that depends on how you interpret the analogy. When I first read what you wrote about Batman, I thought it was actually a good analogy for homosexuality, particularly the bolded sentence.

True, it's a matter of interpretation. Maybe it depends on whether homosexuality is a genetic phenomenon or a mental phenomenon.

TheBlackCat
2006-Jun-22, 01:56 AM
In Sandman, Neil Gaiman brilliently portrays this by showing a very normal Clark in the Dreaming (i.e. Clark is who he is when Ka-El dreams), and a non-human looking Batman (i.e. Batman is who he is when Bruce dreams)

That came up in Batman Beyond. Somebody was trying to discredit Bruce, so they stuck a tiny speaker on his head under a bandage while he was in a hospital. The bandage kept telling him to kill himself, claiming to be in his head, but Bruce refused to listen.

When the new Batman (Terry) discussed the matter with him, he asked Bruce how he knew the voice wasn't in his head. Bruce replied "I know I'm not psychotic." Terry gave him a weird look and Bruce said "you don't look convinced". Bruce then said, "The voice called me 'Bruce'. In my head that's not what I call myself" to which Terry replied "but that's my name now." (or something along those lines)

Māori
2006-Jun-22, 02:39 AM
OMG! This thread is funny, I mean gay, I mean funny! :lol:

Superman is HOT this round! He's so tall and dreamy! SO totally HOT!

Gillianren
2006-Jun-22, 11:06 AM
Actually, it's "McKellen".

Dang it! I need to stand up, walk across the room, and actually check my movie cases next time, huh? (Gods and Monsters, among others. Highly fascinating movie.)

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-22, 11:19 AM
I know a guy who is exactly like James Whale in that movie.

MrClean
2006-Jun-22, 12:02 PM
You know, EVERYONE that has come into the realization of their differences, their OWN personality has realized thier own little 'Alter Ego'. Its not a gay thing. Oh I know, the fact that I was the only kid in a 6A school district that designed, built and flew model airplanes and was called all sorts of nerdy names is not near a steep hill as being homosexual and having to hide that identity behind flawless hair and skin in green jeans, purple polo and designer shoes (yup, never guessed he was different) but it's a hill we all go over, well, most of us.

Having to trash everything as a psuedonym for being gay is just pathetic.

Sides, Superman told me he was doing this for my own good.

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jun-22, 01:54 PM
Having to trash everything as a psuedonym for being gay is just pathetic.Why do you say "trash"?

MrClean
2006-Jun-22, 05:53 PM
Sorry, modify everything. Thinking Trash, bash, kitbash and several other uses but generally to modify from originial intent to fit ones own needs.
ie. In modeling we'll kitbash or trash the parts from a kit and use the things we need.

Disinfo Agent
2006-Jun-22, 08:27 PM
I didn't know that expression. Thanks for the explanation.

Donnie B.
2006-Jun-22, 09:34 PM
Do priests and ministers have Altar Egos?

Vermonter
2006-Jun-23, 04:00 AM
I went though that Googled Superman site...and wow. I'm slightly horrified, but rather curious. I always thought that Batman was the bigger psycho than Superman was. Wasn't it in one fight they had, Batman used Kryptonite to nullify Superman's powers?

HenrikOlsen
2006-Jun-23, 04:10 AM
Yes, in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns

loglo
2006-Jun-23, 01:49 PM
In Australia a favorite saying amongst teenagers currently is " oh thats so gay!" meaning lame, stupid, pathetic etc etc.
In that context I've always thought Superman was gay. :D

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-23, 02:40 PM
I remember Mark Lamarr's assessment of the millennium and his determination of how far homosexuality had come towards public acceptance:

"Well, I think as far as our young people are concerned, homosexuality is pretty gay."

Kesh
2006-Jun-23, 05:19 PM
I went though that Googled Superman site...and wow. I'm slightly horrified, but rather curious. I always thought that Batman was the bigger psycho than Superman was. Wasn't it in one fight they had, Batman used Kryptonite to nullify Superman's powers?
A big issue in Justice League, I believe it was, had the JL discovering that Batman had a contingency for taking down any member of the team, in case they went rogue. A bad guy got a hold of it and started using it to attack the League. Batman got in trouble for that one.

Still, the old Superman comics had him being far more psycho, if the covers are to be believed. ;)

Ara Pacis
2006-Jun-23, 08:45 PM
You'll want to use brackets [] for bbcode.

parallaxicality
2006-Jun-24, 01:41 PM
As Ara Pacis mentioned, Bill (of Kill Bill fame) maintained that Clark Kent was Superman's disguise. I disagree. A couple of DC authors explored this and came to the conclusion that Clark is who Ka-El sees himself as, and Superman is the alter-ego.

In Sandman, Neil Gaiman brilliently portrays this by showing a very normal Clark in the Dreaming (i.e. Clark is who he is when Ka-El dreams), and a non-human looking Batman (i.e. Batman is who he is when Bruce dreams)

It's all very complicated. Superman has four very different identities: Kal-El, Clark Kent, Smallville farm lad, Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter (who is actually somewhat different from the other Clark), and Superman. The shift in identity is not really between Superman and Clark, but between the Clark Kent/Kal-El of home and the Clark Kent/Superman of Metropolis. The Clark Kent of Metropolis is very much like the Bruce Wayne that Bruce becomes upon his return from training in Batman Begins; a phoney personality to hide his true nature. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a real Bruce Wayne, just as there is a real Clark Kent.

Kesh
2006-Jun-25, 12:10 AM
You'll want to use brackets [] for bbcode.
I know, I know. Been bouncing back and forth between various forums, forgot which one I was using.

TheBlackCat
2006-Jun-25, 02:29 AM
Yes, in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns

He did the same thing in Batman Beyond. Bruce had a tiny nail-shaped piece of kryptonite hidden in a secret room behind like 5 layers of security. He had the Terry (new Batman) use it when Superman got possessed by an evil alien starfish that was trying to wipe out the Justice League of that time.

And I don't know personally, by my roommate said that Superman beat up Batman to show off in front of some kids, so Batman laced his gloves up with kryptonite and broke Superman's jaw in retaliation. I suppose that was the instance of Superman "going rogue" that Bruce alluded to when Terry asked him why he had the kryptonite on-hand.