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View Full Version : Homo_cosmosicus explains the moon hoax to all



Nicolas
2006-Jun-29, 05:58 AM
There is no "return" to the Moon, it will be first time landing of humans on the Moon.

Regan attempted... well, I won't write more about it here, because
the topic is about Chinese going to the Moon, probably they will be the first
to land a human being to our natural satellite for the first time in
known history of this planet.

I found this very interesting quote in the Chinese Moon Base thread. As the subject is off-topic overthere, indeed it can't be discussed there. But the remark is more than interesting enough to justify its own thread.

Homo_cosmosicus, please tell me all about the faked moon landings. I'm very interested, as this would be an eye-opener for me. Please rewrite my known history of this planet with the correct facts. I must know the truth, certainly on the alleged moon landings.

PhantomWolf
2006-Jun-29, 07:00 AM
I'm not holding my breath, but so far he seems to be going down the ** (yes that is usable either way) list.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 07:21 AM
I'm not holding my breath, but so far he seems to be going down the ** (yes that is usable either way) list.How low can you go?

With that list, when you get down to the bottom it looks like up. ;)

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 07:29 AM
From another thread that I'm just reading for amusement:


Put it this way. If a Aerospace Engineer tells you that a plane won't fly and you'll be plunging to your death if you try riding it off a cliff, and a Physicist who's expertise in say, Quantum electronics, tells you it's fine and that it's perfectly safe and he should know because he's got a phD in Physics. Would you try flying that plane?Well, slap my back and call me John Denver! Outta my way, we got some flyin' t' do! Thank you Mr. Physicist for removin' my uncertainty!

County runways, take me home, to the place, I belong...uh-oh...

WaxRubiks
2006-Jun-29, 07:37 AM
they say, engineers say that bumble bees can't do up their flys.

Nicolas
2006-Jun-29, 07:47 AM
...until they researched it and found explanations for how it manages to stay in the air. That said, the bumble bee is not the most efficient flying creature on the planet :).

But guys, this thread was made so Homo_cosmosicus could tell me in an on-topic way all about the truth behind the moon landings. Please don't derail the thread.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 08:02 AM
...until they researched it and found explanations for how it manages to stay in the air. That said, the bumble bee is not the most efficient flying creature on the planet :).

But guys, this thread was made so Homo_cosmosicus could tell me in an on-topic way all about the truth behind the moon landings. Please don't derail the thread.No problem. I was just trying to fill the time while waiting for some kind of response from the poster this thread was created for.

On topic, unless there's something I missed there, I wish clavius.org had a numbered list of all the usual AHB claims. Then we could do a sort of checklist with numerical cross-references as the same old same old is brought up once again.

Maybe that's something, potentially a stickie, that need to be worked on. :think:

Gillianren
2006-Jun-29, 09:08 AM
I got nothing but time. O' course, I'm not the most reliable soul, so occasional prompting would get me to work on it more often.

mid
2006-Jun-29, 09:10 AM
What, so whenever someone turns up and presents 'evidence' the landings were faked, we can just reply:

clavius.org/list - 1, 5, 17 and 20 cover your complaint.

and then be done? I like it.

Nicolas
2006-Jun-29, 09:17 AM
It does make it sound like bible quotes though :D

PhantomWolf
2006-Jun-29, 10:17 AM
Please don't derail the thread.

Why not? It's not like homo_cosmosicus is actually ever gunna come in here and answer the questions.

Nicolas
2006-Jun-29, 10:41 AM
Why not? because we should remain objective. If we're just shouting "he won't come, he won't come" we are making it too easy to be labeled predetermined.

Misbehaviour from the other party should not let us lose our integrity. If we give an open chance that is not taken, it is much clearer than stating the most likely outcome before the facts.

PhantomWolf
2006-Jun-29, 10:48 AM
He's already stated in another thread he's not coming, he thinks we were using the thread to make him look like an idiot.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 11:06 AM
What, so whenever someone turns up and presents 'evidence' the landings were faked, we can just reply:

clavius.org/list - 1, 5, 17 and 20 cover your complaint.

and then be done? I like it.
It does make it sound like bible quotes though :DYes. Imagine this reply.
Verily, please let us open to clavius.org and count the ways. First shalt thou take out the Holy List. Then, shalt thou count to the last number. No more. No less. The last number shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be the last. Forty four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou fifty two, excepting that thou then proceed by subtraction to the last number. Fifty five is right out. Once the number that is last, being the last number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy CT Debunking List of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in Aldrin's sight, shall snuff it. The last number of the counting is 42, which readeth, "See all 41 debunkings above." Let us contemplate our towels. Amen.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 11:31 AM
Well, slap my back and call me John Denver! Outta my way, we got some flyin' t' do! Thank you Mr. Physicist for removin' my uncertainty!

County runways, take me home, to the place, I belong...uh-oh...

Do not make fun of my man John Denver. :mad:

Actually, that reminds me of a funny story I haven't thought about in a long time, and which Monty Python fans may appreciate. When I was in college (the first time), I stopped by a friend's dorm room because we were going to see a movie, and he was listening to Monty Python's Contractual Obligations album. About two seconds after he opened the door, a new track started. "And now for something completely different--the sound of John Denver being strangled," which was immediately followed by someone who sounded nothing like John Denver singing unprintable lyrics to one of his more popular songs and being immediately cut off with choking/strangling sounds.

Dave said, very apologetically, "I'm sorry, Doug--I forgot that was on there."

I replied, "And now for something completely different--the sound of Dave Tamaro being strangled," and put my hands on his throat. :)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 11:36 AM
I wish clavius.org had a numbered list of all the usual AHB claims. Then we could do a sort of checklist with numerical cross-references as the same old same old is brought up once again.

Maybe that's something, potentially a stickie, that need to be worked on. :think:

I've mentioned before that it might be a good idea if we had FAQs on all the major conspiracy theories, including links to debunking sites. I would be willing to be PPR for the JFK and Pearl Harbor FAQs.

Tog
2006-Jun-29, 11:37 AM
On my copy of that album, that bit has been changed. It is now:

"On legal advice, the item which follows has been omitted", followed by an appropriate amound of dead air then another apology and straight on to Finland, Finland.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 11:42 AM
On my copy of that album, that bit has been changed. It is now:

"On legal advice, the item which follows has been omitted", followed by an appropriate amound of dead air then another apology and straight on to Finland, Finland.
Someone probably decided it would be in bad taste, even by Python standards, to leave it on there after his death.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 11:47 AM
Do not make fun of my man John Denver. :mad: [edit]Dave said, very apologetically, "I'm sorry, Doug--I forgot that was on there."

I replied, "And now for something completely different--the sound of Dave Tamaro being strangled," and put my hands on his throat. :)Funny!

But I thought your man was Marion Morrison...

OK, (warning: memory test!) next time there will be a reference to the Thurman Munson Flying School.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5575/airplane6ri.gif (http://imageshack.us)http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9457/8ball3qa.gif (http://imageshack.us) (http://imageshack.us)http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9981/ack3gi.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Tog
2006-Jun-29, 11:50 AM
Someone probably decided it would be in bad taste, even by Python standards, to leave it on there after his death.

I'd have to check the date on it, but I think I had it before he died. I think they didn't have the rights to the melody of the song, thought is was credited on the jacket.

mid
2006-Jun-29, 12:08 PM
Cover versions can be performed without the copyright owner's consent, as long as you're paying them appropriately according to the standard laws. Changing the lyrics makes it a different but derivative work, and those do require consent to be obtained.

So The Joshua Trio were able to annoy Bono by performing deliberately horrid versions of U2 songs, but the Pet Shop Boys had to obtain consent to mash the verses of Where The Streets Have No Name into the chorus of I Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 12:25 PM
I'd have to check the date on it, but I think I had it before he died. I think they didn't have the rights to the melody of the song, thought is was credited on the jacket.
I thought of that, but from what I know of copyright law their use unquestionably qualified as fair use. They only used six notes of the song, IIRC, and the use was unquestionably a parody. Of course, the above may not have been settled at the time the decision was taken to remove the track. US courts have ruled that the entire melody of a song may be used to parody that song (and presumably the singer--but not to parody something or someone else). Thus "Weird Al" Yankovic's parodies of George Harrison's "Set on You" and Billy Ray Cyrus's "Achy Breaky Heart" would clearly qualify as fair use (though "Weird Al" always seeks permission as a courtesy, and some of his other songs are clearly used to parody other people), but the parody of Tom Cruise that uses Queen's "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" would not (I don't know whether whoever created that got permission or not; I presume they did, as I've heard it on the radio).

On the other hand, the decision may have been taken merely to remove the track rather than fight a costly court battle. I'm also not sure how much of the above applies to international copyright.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 12:36 PM
Any suggestion of MPFC being censored is very upsetting, and it raises my ire, and gets my dander up, and raises the hackles, and puts my ears back, and really irks me, and ticks me off, and makes me want to puke, and gets me thinking about locking and loading, and drives me to distraction, and is just asking for trouble, and makes me want to slap some sense into someone, and irritates me to no end, and rubs me the wrong way, and galls me, and fills me with rage, and really upsets me, and makes me see red, and strikes a nerve, and makes me angry!

Other than that, I see no problem here.

And now,......the larch...

peter eldergill
2006-Jun-29, 01:05 PM
And now,......the larch...


Hey....I can recognize trees at a distance as well....

Pete

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 01:56 PM
Hey....I can recognize trees at a distance as well....

PeteExcellent. You're hired.

In the best of all possible worlds, where everyone knows the meaning of life, then vice versa:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1910/number1thelarch4ip.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=number1thelarch4ip.jpg)

Note the UFO to the right of the right Larix decidua. Of course from the tree's perspective it's to the left of its left shoulder. But trees don't have shoulders. But they do have crotches. Therefore...


Right! Stop this! Now, that's just silly. It started out as a nice post about old larches who took pictures of people, now it's just gotten silly. Their needles are too long for a start, and you can tell those aren't real cartoon balloons.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 02:56 PM
But I thought your man was Marion Morrison...

Well, Pilgrim, actually my man is Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_daniels) (former Budget Director for Bush the Younger). His campaign plastered the state with bumper stickers and signs reading "My Man Mitch." :)

OK, (warning: memory test!) next time there will be a reference to the Thurman Munson Flying School.

Coincidentally, I recently read the NTSB report (http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1980/AAR8002.pdf) on Munson's crash. The short version: he had just earned his jet rating, and took two of his former flight instructors (neither of whom were jet rated) up for some "touch and go" landings. Munson repeatedly failed to go through his landing checklist, and on one approach, he neglected to lower his flaps. He also miscalculated his approach speed. Being unused to the delayed power response of jet engines, he failed to add enough throttle to avoid crashing. Munson's seat broke loose and struck the firewall, injuring and trapping him. The two passengers unsuccessfully attempted to free him until smoke and flames forced them to flee the aircraft.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 04:21 PM
But I thought your man was Marion Morrison...

Well, Pilgrim,...You need a strutting, sauntering smilie for that. Or at least a sauntering, strutting smilie. ;)
actually my man is Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_daniels) (former Budget Director for Bush the Younger). His campaign plastered the state with bumper stickers and signs reading "My Man Mitch." :)I remember him. The Indiana Power & Light Co. stock guy. Make hay while the sun shines, I guess.


OK, (warning: memory test!) next time there will be a reference to the Thurman Munson Flying School.

Coincidentally, I recently read the NTSB report (http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1980/AAR8002.pdf) on Munson's crash. The short version: he had just earned his jet rating, and took two of his former flight instructors (neither of whom were jet rated) up for some "touch and go" landings. Munson repeatedly failed to go through his landing checklist, and on one approach, he neglected to lower his flaps. He also miscalculated his approach speed. Being unused to the delayed power response of jet engines, he failed to add enough throttle to avoid crashing. Munson's seat broke loose and struck the firewall, injuring and trapping him. The two passengers unsuccessfully attempted to free him until smoke and flames forced them to flee the aircraft.I recall all those details. My son, despite living in Red Sox territory (CT right next to the MA state line) and coming from a family of National Leaguers (Go B'ooklyn!! Go, Ya Bums!!), was a Yankees fan. I had the job many times of protecting him when we visited Fenway, while he was wearing his Yankees jacket and ball cap, waving his Yankees pennant, and cheering for Reggie.

So when Munson went down in 1979, it was my unfortunate duty as a father to explain to my son what went wrong. I used that situation to provide him with advice that one should never start messing around with a piece of machinery you've not yet mastered.

He still has all ten fingers.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-29, 04:36 PM
So when Munson went down in 1979, it was my unfortunate duty as a father to explain to my son what went wrong. I used that situation to provide him with advice that one should never start messing around with a piece of machinery you've not yet mastered.

Wow--I'll bet that was a tough job. When I was just starting sixth grade my best friend was a huge Elvis fan, and I heard on TV that Elvis had died. I ran out the door toward Mike's house, and he was standing out in his yard. I wasn't thinking clearly, and I just blurted out, "Mike--Elvis is dead!" Even though I was only in sixth grade and couldn't have been expected to have known better, to this day I still feel bad that I didn't try to break it to him more gently.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-29, 05:41 PM
So when Munson went down in 1979, it was my unfortunate duty as a father to explain to my son what went wrong. I used that situation to provide him with advice that one should never start messing around with a piece of machinery you've not yet mastered.

Wow--I'll bet that was a tough job. When I was just starting sixth grade my best friend was a huge Elvis fan, and I heard on TV that Elvis had died. I ran out the door toward Mike's house, and he was standing out in his yard. I wasn't thinking clearly, and I just blurted out, "Mike--Elvis is dead!" Even though I was only in sixth grade and couldn't have been expected to have known better, to this day I still feel bad that I didn't try to break it to him more gently.1977 was a tough year for some of us old guys. Bing Crosby died. But at least he did it while playing golf. Earlier my favorite comedian and idol of my youth, Groucho Marx, died. Before that, the guy from Tupelo croaked. Although I couldn't stand him when my sister was screaming in front of the TV during a broadcast of him from the waist up on the Ed Sullivan Show, later I appreciated his way with many songs, especially ballads.

But my toughest job was in 1979 when I had tell my 7-year-old son some unfortunate news. We went fishing in the Housatonic river near New Milford. When the moment seemed right, I explained to him that we wouldn't be going back to our house in Cheshire. That, instead, we'd be living in a townhouse in Windsor Locks, and that his mother wouldn't be living with us anymore, since we were getting divorced.

Needless to say, we didn't catch many fish that day. I wound up with essentially nothing after she cleaned me out, but I had the most important thing, the opportunity to ensure that my son would have a decent upbringing.

Now he's 34, a successful manager, happily married, and enjoying life.

The choice was the right one.

Gillianren
2006-Jun-29, 08:42 PM
I thought of that, but from what I know of copyright law their use unquestionably qualified as fair use. They only used six notes of the song, IIRC, and the use was unquestionably a parody. Of course, the above may not have been settled at the time the decision was taken to remove the track. US courts have ruled that the entire melody of a song may be used to parody that song (and presumably the singer--but not to parody something or someone else). Thus "Weird Al" Yankovic's parodies of George Harrison's "Set on You" and Billy Ray Cyrus's "Achy Breaky Heart" would clearly qualify as fair use (though "Weird Al" always seeks permission as a courtesy, and some of his other songs are clearly used to parody other people), but the parody of Tom Cruise that uses Queen's "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" would not (I don't know whether whoever created that got permission or not; I presume they did, as I've heard it on the radio).

On the other hand, the decision may have been taken merely to remove the track rather than fight a costly court battle. I'm also not sure how much of the above applies to international copyright.

I don't, either, but parody was settled in the US by the ruling in Berlin et. al. v. Mad Magazine, which declared parody to be protected First Amendment speech. Which means Coolio can whine all he wants to, but apparently, Weird Al even sent him a check, which he definitely doesn't have to do. Parody away, kids!

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 03:05 AM
[P]arody was settled in the US by the ruling in Berlin et. al. v. Mad Magazine, which declared parody to be protected First Amendment speech. Which means Coolio can whine all he wants to, but apparently, Weird Al even sent him a check, which he definitely doesn't have to do. Parody away, kids!

Song parodies can be considerably more problematic than text parodies, due to their use of the music from the original. Also, a parody must be of the song itself (or possibly its creators, in my opinion), and not a parody of something or someone else, in order to be considered as fair use.

The following is from Justice Anthony Kennedy's concurring opinion in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music Inc. (1994) (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=U10426), in which the US Supreme Court unanimously held that 2 Live Crew's parody of Roy Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman" could potentially qualify as fair use under US copyright law:



JUSTICE KENNEDY, concurring.

....parody may qualify as fair use only if it draws upon the original composition to make humorous or ironic commentary about that same composition....It is not enough that the parody use the original in a humorous fashion, however creative that humor may be. The parody must target the original, and not just its general style, the genre of art to which it belongs, or society as a whole (although if it targets the original, it may target those features as well)....

The third factor [the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the whole] does reinforce the principle that courts should not accord fair use protection to profiteers who do no more than add a few silly words to someone else's song or place the characters from a familiar work in novel or eccentric poses....

The fair use factors thus reinforce the importance of keeping the definition of parody within proper limits. More than arguable parodic content should be required to deem a would-be parody a fair use. Fair use is an affirmative defense , so doubts about whether a given use is fair should not be resolved in favor of the self-proclaimed parodist. [I]We should not make it easy for musicians to exploit existing works and then later claim that their rendition was a valuable commentary on the original. Almost any revamped modern version of a familiar composition can be construed as a "comment on the naivete of the original,"...because of the difference in style and because it will be amusing to hear how the old tune sounds in the new genre. Just the thought of a rap version of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony or "Achy, Breaky Heart" is bound to make people smile. If we allow any weak transformation to qualify as parody, however, we weaken the protection of copyright.... [emphasis added, citations omitted]
Therefore, Weird Al's "Achy, Breaky Song" would definitely qualify as fair use, as it is clearly a parody of the original, "Achy, Breaky Heart" by Billy Ray Cyrus:


"Weird Al" Yankovic
Don't play that song
That "Achy Breaky" song
I think it's driving me insane
Oh, please don't play that song
That irritating song
I'd rather have a pitchfork in my brain...
Similarly, "Smells Like Nirvana" would qualify as fair use, as it parodies both the original, "Smells Like Teen Spirit," and the original's creators, Nirvana. "(This Song's Just) Six Words Long," a parody of George Harrison's "(I Got My Mind) Set on You," would also be protected. Those are the only clear parodies of Al's I can think of.

However, Al's "The Saga Begins," and "Yoda," which use Don McLean's "American Pie" and The Kinks' "Lola" to parody various parts of the Star Wars movies, would definitely not fall under "fair use." Another example of Al's work that is clearly not fair use is "Here's Johnny," which uses El DeBarge's "Who's Johnny" to poke fun at Ed McMahon.

Whether "Amish Paradise," Al's version of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" actually parodies the original, and thus qualifies as fair use, is at best debatable, which means it most likely doesn't qualify, as discussed in Justice Kennedy's opinion.

Gillianren
2006-Jun-30, 05:20 AM
[P]arody was settled in the US by the ruling in Berlin et. al. v. Mad Magazine, which declared parody to be protected First Amendment speech. Which means Coolio can whine all he wants to, but apparently, Weird Al even sent him a check, which he definitely doesn't have to do. Parody away, kids!

Song parodies can be considerably more problematic than text parodies, due to their use of the music from the original. Also, a parody must be of the song itself (or possibly its creators, in my opinion), and not a parody of something or someone else, in order to be considered as fair use.

That ruling was about song parodies. Sure, it was a magazine, but "Berlin" was Irving Berlin. It regarded the Mad Magazine Songbook, with its parodies of various songs from musical theatre--one of which took "The Rain in Spain," from My Fair Lady, and turned it into a song about Kennedy's youthful appeal, which I think by your standards wouldn't be okay, but the Supreme Court said it was.

JayUtah
2006-Jun-30, 05:37 AM
Great, thanks to the inexplicable resurgence of Monty Python references I've been absorbing here over the past couple of days, tonight's rehearsal of the opening number from Beauty and the Beast devolved into the notorious Fisch Schlapping dance.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-30, 05:59 AM
Great, thanks to the inexplicable resurgence of Monty Python references I've been absorbing here over the past couple of days, tonight's rehearsal of the opening number from Beauty and the Beast devolved into the notorious Fisch Schlapping dance.If a participant, which beast were you, Palin or Cleese? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMExiy6Bm2Y)

Maksutov
2006-Jun-30, 06:20 AM
[edit]When I was just starting sixth grade my best friend was a huge Elvis fan, and I heard on TV that Elvis had died. I ran out the door toward Mike's house, and he was standing out in his yard. I wasn't thinking clearly, and I just blurted out, "Mike--Elvis is dead!" Even though I was only in sixth grade and couldn't have been expected to have known better, to this day I still feel bad that I didn't try to break it to him more gently.Damn 20/20 hindsight. I'm sure you did the best you could under the circumstances.

At least he heard about it from a live human voice, as opposed to a frigid, rote newscast on some TV or radio.

Long live the King. And the Duke. BTW, Mr. Deutschendorf's song Thank God I'm A Country Boy is one of the two pieces of music I've requested, in a will attachment, to be played at my funeral.

Maybe he'll land back in Roswell, and serenade what's left of me... ;)

nomuse
2006-Jun-30, 06:22 AM
You're doing Beast? Grr. Lucky dogs. Our rights were pulled, and we're doing......shudder....Sound of Mucus instead.

Tog
2006-Jun-30, 06:36 AM
However, Al's "The Saga Begins," and "Yoda," which use Don McLean's "American Pie" and The Kinks' "Lola" to parody various parts of the Star Wars movies, would definitely not fall under "fair use." Another example of Al's work that is clearly not fair use is "Here's Johnny," which uses El DeBarge's "Who's Johnny" to poke fun at Ed McMahon.

In his Box Set released a few years back Al talked a little bit about some of the songs and what he went through to do them. He had written the record company that owned the the rights to 'Lola' several times and was always told no, then he happened to bumb into the actual writer (whose name escapes me) and asked him why not. The writer said he'd never heard of the proposal and gave his Blessing.

One night after a concert a young kid asked Al for his autograph saying Al was his favorite musician ever. The kid was standing beside his dad, George Harrison.

"Like a Surgeon" is the only song (at the time that the box set was released that an artist (Madonna) sent in the idea. She asked hi when he was going to do "Like a Surgeon". He like the title and ran with it.

The guy from Nirvanna that went on to the Foo Fighters said tha Wierd Al's request to do Smells like Teen Spirit was a celebratory point for Nirvanna, as it showed they'd made it big.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-30, 06:51 AM
You're doing Beast? Grr. Lucky dogs. Our rights were pulled, and we're doing......shudder....Sound of Mucus instead.
The hills are alive with the sound of (clear your nose, dear.)

DOUGH, it's dear, that's why we're here, RAY, my financial adviser, ME, where all the profits go, FA, funds for my 401K, SOL, my banker in Tel Aviv, LA, where I put cash in flicks, TI, it's better when it's smoked, which leads us back to DOUGH!!

When you know the buttons to push,
You'll retire on your overpaid tush!

DOUGH, it's dear, that's why we're here, RAY, my financial adviser, ME, where all the profits go, FA, funds for my 401K, SOL, my banker in Tel Aviv, LA, where I put cash in flicks, TI, it's better when it's smoked, which leads us back to DOUGH!! Appy polly loggies to Mary Martin.

$$$$$$$$$$$

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 12:27 PM
That ruling was about song parodies. Sure, it was a magazine, but "Berlin" was Irving Berlin. It regarded the Mad Magazine Songbook, with its parodies of various songs from musical theatre--one of which took "The Rain in Spain," from My Fair Lady, and turned it into a song about Kennedy's youthful appeal, which I think by your standards wouldn't be okay, but the Supreme Court said it was.

No, the crucial difference is that in Berlin (http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/law/library/cases/case_berlin_ec.html), the parodies consisted only of lyrics that were suggested should be sung to the tunes in question; this is not the same thing at all as actually recording and selling (or otherwise distributing) parodies that use copyrighted music with different words. If Mad Magazine had published a book of sheet music of the songs in question, substituting the parody lyrics for the originals, then the case would have been comparable to Campbell. Also, Campbell, being a later ruling, supersedes Berlin if the two conflict. The crucial issues are the amount of borrowing from the original (minimal in Berlin, substantial in Campbell), and the potential of the derivative work to substitute for the original (nonexistent in Berlin, and small but real in Campbell).

Also, Berlin didn't even make it to the Supreme Court; most of the case was thrown out by the trial court, and this decision was affirmed by the appeals court. The plaintiffs either didn't appeal to the Supreme Court (more likely, as their case was extremely weak), or else the Court let the lower court's ruling stand without comment.

[edit: text formatting and spelling]

triplebird
2006-Jun-30, 12:48 PM
...Thank God I'm A Country Boy is one of the two pieces of music I've requested, in a will attachment, to be played at my funeral...

You could have Forest Lawn* as the other one:

[John Denver]
Lay me down in Forest Lawn in a silver casket
With golden flowers over my head in a silver basket...
[/John Denver]

:D

*Dunno if JD wrote that song or he just sung it. It's on An Evening with John Denver.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 12:52 PM
Damn 20/20 hindsight. I'm sure you did the best you could under the circumstances.

I did much better when one of our neighbors died a couple of years before that. She and her family were our closest friends in the neighborhood at the time. She was about my mom's age, and had suffered from scleraderma for several years. My parents commended me for what I said to her husband at the calling. But of course I'd had a couple of days to prepare.

At least he heard about it from a live human voice, as opposed to a frigid, rote newscast on some TV or radio.

Thanks--good point.

BTW, Mr. Deutschendorf's song Thank God I'm A Country Boy is one of the two pieces of music I've requested, in a will attachment, to be played at my funeral.

Very interesting choice--what's the other one? BTW, as you may know, the Orioles used to use that as their 7th-inning stretch song. I'm not sure whether they still do.

Maybe he'll land back in Roswell, and serenade what's left of me... ;)

We'll all find out "soon enough," as Ron Reagan said at his father's funeral. :)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 12:59 PM
You could have Forest Lawn* as the other one:

[John Denver]
Lay me down in Forest Lawn in a silver casket
With golden flowers over my head in a silver basket...
[/John Denver]

:D

*Dunno if JD wrote that song or he just sung it. It's on An Evening with John Denver.
Nope--it was written by folk singer Tom Paxton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Paxton). I performed "Forest Lawn" in a couple of talent shows in high school and college. After the high school one the principal asked me if I could make a tape of it so he could send it to a friend of his who sold cemetery plots. :D

WHarris
2006-Jun-30, 01:52 PM
Very interesting choice--what's the other one? BTW, as you may know, the Orioles used to use that as their 7th-inning stretch song. I'm not sure whether they still do.


They do. (And I was at the Yard last Wed.)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 02:41 PM
They do. (And I was at the Yard last Wed.)

I had heard a few years ago that there had been a movement to change it, and that fans were heavily in favor of switching to something else. I figured it might have been changed after 2001, when most clubs temporarily started using "God Bless America" as their 7th-inning stretch song. Might have to take in an Orioles game next time I visit my best friend, who lives in Silver Spring.

JayUtah
2006-Jun-30, 02:55 PM
If a participant, which beast were you, Palin or Cleese?

That presumes a level of organization that wasn't really there. It was just ... silly.

The opening number of Beauty and the Beast is a predictable "establishment" scene with a number of villagers whose props indicate their trade -- the fishmonger, the hatter, the bookseller, etc. The fishmonger started it. It escalated to several in the ensemble piling corspelike onto the bookseller's barrow, whereupon he made his entrance shouting, "Bring out your dead!" It's enough to make the director start drinking out of a paper bag.

Tinaa
2006-Jun-30, 03:25 PM
A couple of years ago our HS drama dept.'s Les Misérables had a similar scene. One of the barricades fell. One by one the actors stood up and "sang" a Shakespearian quote before grabbing his chest and falling over dead. "Beware the ides of March," "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio , "To sleep, perchance to dream," "O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?" It was hilarious! Les Mis is so like Shakespearean tragedies it really was a suitable ending. Unfortunately, the actors had to try keep rehearsing, but the giggles ended the rehearsal early.

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 04:38 PM
A couple of years ago our HS drama dept.'s Les Misérables had a similar scene. One of the barricades fell. One by one the actors stood up and "sang" a Shakespearian quote before grabbing his chest and falling over dead. "Beware the ides of March," "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio , "To sleep, perchance to dream," "O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?" It was hilarious! Les Mis is so like Shakespearean tragedies it really was a suitable ending. Unfortunately, the actors had to try keep rehearsing, but the giggles ended the rehearsal early.

I was a sound tech for an amateur production of Godspell when I was at Purdue. At one point we were rehearsing a scene where one of the characters gets so excited that he babbles incoherently for several seconds. The script goes something like "And so frickin' was the skortz that he frockin' with the...," etc. The actor got a little tongue-tied and mispronounced one of the nonsense words, but he didn't notice. Everyone else did, though, and the rehearsal stopped for a few minutes because the cast, the crew, and the band were all laughing so hard that no one could talk, while the poor guy just stood there and looked around helplessly. Finally the director was able to stop laughing long enough to say, "This is a family show!"

"Wha-what did I say?"

The director told him (euphemistically), and he turned really red, saying, "Oh my God--my seven-year-old nephew is coming to the show." After that the director re-wrote the script to use different nonsense words. :D

On a more serious note, it's always seemed to me that Les Mis would be really tough to put on as an amateur production, due to the difficulty of the music, the large number of speaking/singing roles, and the complexity of the sets. How did yours come off?

Tinaa
2006-Jun-30, 05:09 PM
It was wonderful. The reason we chose the show was the incredible talent available that year. The next year we did Man from La Mancha, again utilizing the same talent. The students were spectacular. We have huge community involvement. A local construction company helps build the sets. I volunteer designing and sewing the costumes, which were terribly hard for Les Mis but practically nonexistent for Godspell. One drama teacher is an actress (Most recently starred in Always Patsy Cline , a two woman show..excellent by the way.) with excellent vision.

We did Godspell this year. I laughed and cried. The kids are dedicated, which is why the shows work. During the crucifixion scene a tech missed getting a weight hung on the bottom and the fence skewed sideways. The poor actor was hanging on for dear life. That was fixed before the debut. Many people who saw the shows have seen the professional productions and said our shows measure up favorably. Next year we're doing High School Musical.

We've gone horribly off topic here. Perhaps one should start a thread in Babbling about theatre?

triplebird
2006-Jun-30, 06:37 PM
Nope--it was written by folk singer Tom Paxton.

Thanks for the link; the Wiki article explains a lot--another song I had heard from John Denver turns out to be one of Tom's as well: The Marvellous Toy (JD sings it on of of his Christmas albums, IIRC)


After the high school one the principal asked me if I could make a tape of it so he could send it to a friend of his who sold cemetery plots.

:lol:

"Rock of Ages, cleft for me, for a slightly higher fee!" ;)

Brent

dgavin
2006-Jun-30, 06:56 PM
I didn't want to be computer programmer, I wanted to be a Lumber Jack!

Swinging from tree to tree with mah best girly at mah side. The Fir! The Larch! The mighty Scot's Pine. We'd Sing... Sing... sing...

"Oh he's a lumberjack and he's OK..."

SpitfireIX
2006-Jun-30, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the link; the Wiki article explains a lot--another song I had heard from John Denver turns out to be one of Tom's as well: The Marvellous Toy (JD sings it on of of his Christmas albums, IIRC)

I had to look this one up; I don't have that album (I didn't care for much of his later work, with a few notable exceptions). I might have to get that. It's on Christmas Like a Lullaby. I remember that song from Captain Kangaroo; I presume it was Paxton's recording they used (though I think it might have been covered by others well before JD did it).

"Rock of Ages, cleft for me, for a slightly higher fee!" ;)

My favorite line in the song. :)

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Jun-30, 08:08 PM
[Snip!] We've gone horribly off topic here. Perhaps one should start a thread in Babbling about theatre?
We're not too terribly far off. Think of this thread as Waiting for Godot to Explain the Moon Hoax to All. :) ;)

Astronot
2006-Jun-30, 08:19 PM
We're not too terribly far off. Think of this thread as Waiting for Godot to Explain the Moon Hoax to All. :) ;)

Be careful when you invoke the name of that play. If you do it in an unapproved way you risk the wrath of the Beckett estate. From yesterdays Wall Street Journal.

Two weeks into a recent production of "Waiting for Godot" at a 100-seat theater in this Tuscan town, director Roberto Bacci got a fax from an Italian copyright watchdog agency. It was sent at the behest of the Beckett estate, which had discovered that the show was using twin sisters to play the roles of the male tramps Vladimir and Estragon. Even though the actresses dressed and talked like men, the fax called the staging illegal and ordered the production closed, sparking a legal battle in Rome that has yet to be resolved.

It seems they are very picky about stage directions.

Doodler
2006-Jun-30, 08:20 PM
The guy from Nirvanna that went on to the Foo Fighters said tha Wierd Al's request to do Smells like Teen Spirit was a celebratory point for Nirvanna, as it showed they'd made it big.

Dave Groll (sp?)

He's something of a parody man himself. One of his videos was a parody of those Mentos commercials about a candy called "Footos".

Sigma_Orionis
2006-Jun-30, 08:24 PM
We're not too terribly far off. Think of this thread as Waiting for Godot to Explain the Moon Hoax to All. :) ;)

Either that or a post-post modernist version of the Bald Prima Donna :D

nomuse
2006-Jun-30, 08:52 PM
That's true of a lot of scripts these days. You are not allowed to cross-gender cast ("Odd Couple," for instance, if you want to do it with two women, you buy the two-women version of the script!) You can't change any lines, even to substitute euphemisms. If the words in the script are too strong for your audience, your only choice is official substitutions the author may or may not have included for you.

And scripts are _costly_. Our little 200-seat non-profit, for a five-weekend run of a musical, will shell out five to eight thousand. Of course you can shave a little by going without the full score (but don't you dare play with a live orchestra if you didn't pay for the sheet music). And yet, a million children's productions and small community theaters are still going blithely along with dog-eared copies of some old script, completely unaware that they are breaking the law.

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Jun-30, 09:20 PM
Be careful when you invoke the name of that play. If you do it in an unapproved way you risk the wrath of the Beckett estate. [Snip!]
Then I wonder what the Beckett estate must have thought of a little sequel written to it in The Windmill, a literary magazine published at the University of Oklahoma many years ago. The gist of it was something like this:

[The stage is empty. Godot enters.]
Godot: Hello!! Sorry I'm late! Hey, where is everybody?
:lol:

nomuse
2006-Jun-30, 09:33 PM
My favorite Godot has to be the comic book version drawn for the "Harvard Lampoon Book of Sequels." Drawn in the style of Marvel comics, with dramatic camera angles, spikey dialog balloons, close-ups and jump-cuts, it almost lived up to the title "Godot Action Comics!"



Well, well, well. http://www.hdschellnack.de/?p=680

Maksutov
2006-Jun-30, 10:37 PM
[edit]BTW, Mr. Deutschendorf's song Thank God I'm A Country Boy is one of the two pieces of music I've requested, in a will attachment, to be played at my funeral.

Very interesting choice--what's the other one? BTW, as you may know, the Orioles used to use that as their 7th-inning stretch song. I'm not sure whether they still do.The other is actually two pieces that, to what's left of my ears, segue together almost seamlessly.

The "introduction" is Mahler, Symphonie No.9, IV. Adagio. Sehr langsam und noch zurückhaltend. This is one of the most glorious pieces of music ever written. It is happy, sad, optimistic, pessimistic, realistic, mystic, loving life while leaving it, and incredibly other-worldly. The last page

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5575/mahler9lastpage14fr.th.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mahler9lastpage14fr.jpg)

is beyond the ability of words to describe it. It has to be heard.

With certain quotes and references in the music you can tell that Mahler was a loving father who really never got over the death, due to scarlet fever, of his first child, his five-year-old daughter Maria. (http://www.radio.cbc.ca/specials/mahler/images/photos/6c.jpg) Of course her mother Alma had quite a career after Gustav died. As Tom Lehrer documented (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Alma-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/DA50884731EAF2F848256A7D00256E43), altars have rarely been that wet.

The D Flat Major ending, which influenced such composers as Bartók (String Quartet No. 6), Shostakovich (Symphony No. 4 (along with Das Lied von der Erde) and numerous other works), Vaughan Williams* (Symphony No. 6: Epilogue), and many others, naturally segues into another cosmic landscape, this being the G Major off-stage string quartet/orchestra of Ives' The Unanswered Question. (http://www.leonardbernstein.com/assets/graphics/ives_3s9.jpg)

The high notes on the strings sound remarkably like the similar sounds in the opening of Mahler's Symphonie No.1. The trumpet solo, which "asks the question" sounds, in this context, like an atonal variation of the last fives notes of that incredible Mahler 3+5/5+3 note motif that's the basis of the entire 9th. The flutes (and other people) attempting to answer the question, crunch their dissonances in a faster and faster fashion leading to the final discord, which mirrors the similar discord three beats into measure 144 of Part IV of Mahler's 9th.

Then we're left with the trumpet asking the question one last time, there's no answer, and finally the strings fade away to a G Major infinity, and segue into A Major with John Denver singing Thank God I'm A Country Boy (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Thank-God-I-m-A-Country-Boy-lyrics-John-Denver/3C44AC6DEDD74ED148256885000E6C24). When "riddle" is mentioned for the last time, it's then my ashes are to be added to the boreal ecosystem of the summit of Mt. Blue, The State of Maine.

And so my journey will end.


*Despite VW's averred dislike of Mahler, questioning whether he was really a composer. I guess to paraphrase Stravinsky (who lifted a seven-beat passage from Mahler's 8th to use in Le Sacre), steal from the best and then put them down to build yourself up. BTW, sometimes I wonder if old Rafe was really a composer when I'm listening to yet another veddy British melody with an oompah-oompah accompaniment. :)

Gillianren
2006-Jun-30, 10:47 PM
The fishmonger started it.

Jay, I have lived all my life in anticipation of seeing you use that sentence. My life is complete now. Thank you.

Spitfire, I am now too lazy to dig out my copy of Completely Mad, which gives much detail on that particular case (stupid heat), so I'm just going to concede for now. Maybe I 'll look it up after the sun goes down. (Stupid sun.)

Tensor
2006-Jun-30, 11:34 PM
We've gone horribly off topic here. Perhaps one should start a thread in Babbling about theatre?

Now there's an idea. I've been so danged busy with our show, I just now got through this thread (my first night off in a week) and feel like I missed all the fun. At least, I got all the construction part of the set done today. I get to start painting tomorrow. We have our tech rehearsal in the afternoon a week from Saturday(and our first full dress later that night). I'm going to try and get some pictures posted, once the set is done and the lighting designer gets done doing his thing.

Maksutov
2006-Jun-30, 11:56 PM
Jay, I have lived all my life in anticipation of seeing you use that sentence. My life is complete now. Thank you.
Now that you know who you are,
what do you want to be?
(other than a rich man, that is...)The great thing is the FSD pre-answers the main question in The Meaning of Life: Where is that fish? (http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Images/find.the.fish.jpg)


Spitfire, I am now too lazy to dig out my copy of Completely Mad, which gives much detail on that particular case (stupid heat), so I'm just going to concede for now.That look anything like this?

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8931/dametelpmoc6lu.th.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dametelpmoc6lu.jpg)


Maybe I 'll look it up after the sun goes down. (Stupid sun.)Or when the Earth rotates enough so that the Sun appears to be under your local horizon. Meanwhile I'll save you the trouble and try not to interrupt your well-deserved rest and relief from the heat, as soon I get out my reading mirror. :)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jul-01, 12:59 AM
Then I wonder what the Beckett estate must have thought of a little sequel written to it in The Windmill, a literary magazine published at the University of Oklahoma many years ago. The gist of it was something like this:



[The stage is empty. Godot enters.]
Godot: Hello!! Sorry I'm late! Hey, where is everybody?


:lol:

This would likely qualify as a parody of the original, and thus be considered fair use.

Maksutov
2006-Jul-01, 01:32 AM
This would likely qualify as a parody of the original, and thus be considered fair use.According to the parody I'm reading in DAM (eibezrtop) yletelpmoc, todoG rof gnitiaW yllautca si eltit eht.

Anagrammatically, darn that Dogot! (http://www.tvacres.com/images/battlestar-gallatica.jpg)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jul-01, 01:37 AM
The "introduction" is Mahler, Symphonie No.9, IV. Adagio. Sehr langsam und noch zurückhaltend. This is one of the most glorious pieces of music ever written.

Now you've piqued my interest and I'll have to listen to it. The only Mahler I've ever had on CD is his 2nd (Resurrection)--the version conducted by publisher Gilbert Kaplan.

Of course her mother Alma had quite a career after Gustav died. As Tom Lehrer documented (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Alma-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/DA50884731EAF2F848256A7D00256E43), altars have rarely been that wet.

And according to the Tomfoolery songbook, which is somewhere in my parents' garage, everything in the song is accurate. :)

When "riddle" is mentioned for the last time, it's then my ashes are to be added to the boreal ecosystem of the summit of Mt. Blue, The State of Maine.

And so my journey will end.

Sounds a lot better than a boring old cemetery. :)

I should probably update my funeral plans, as they're rather out of date, now that I think about it. They involve several people with whom I don't really associate any more, and they're a bit sketchy (drafted about seven years ago, the night before I had my gallbladder removed, "just in case"). I also need to update my will, but I'm waiting on that to see whether or not my former girlfriend and I get back together. That cliche from Murphy Brown (and any number of funeral home advertisements) really is true, I've found. Once you have things like that taken care of, you can get on with living, because you don't need to worry about them.

I guess to paraphrase Stravinsky (who lifted a seven-beat passage from Mahler's 8th to use in Le Sacre)...

I had to throw this in--a former co-worker of mine is quite a connoisseur of classical music. One day he told me that he'd recently attended a performance of Rite of Spring. I asked him, "Did you rip your chair loose from the floor and throw it at the stage?" :D

Gillianren
2006-Jul-01, 02:52 AM
That look anything like this?

Something like, yes. It was released not long after Christmas, so what I actually got as a present that year was a little slip of paper saying that my mom had a copy preordered at Vroman's Bookstore. My mom's fun like that.


Or when the Earth rotates enough so that the Sun appears to be under your local horizon. Meanwhile I'll save you the trouble and try not to interrupt your well-deserved rest and relief from the heat, as soon I get out my reading mirror. :)

Right now, the Earth has rotated so that the Sun is blazing directly into my bedroom window. Ecch.

Maksutov
2006-Jul-01, 04:35 AM
If a participant, which beast were you, Palin or Cleese?

That presumes a level of organization that wasn't really there. It was just ... silly.

The opening number of Beauty and the Beast is a predictable "establishment" scene with a number of villagers whose props indicate their trade -- the fishmonger, the hatter, the bookseller, etc. The fishmonger started it. It escalated to several in the ensemble piling corspelike onto the bookseller's barrow, whereupon he made his entrance shouting, "Bring out your dead!" It's enough to make the director start drinking out of a paper bag.Who has the role of the fishmonger? Anyone we know?

Maksutov
2006-Jul-01, 10:00 AM
The "introduction" is Mahler, Symphonie No.9, IV. Adagio. Sehr langsam und noch zurückhaltend. This is one of the most glorious pieces of music ever written.

Now you've piqued my interest and I'll have to listen to it.I recommend the Walter 1961 recording of the 9th for first listening to the Adagio. Although Walter's performance comes in at just 21:04 (some performances stretch this music out to a half hour), it has a certain ethereal quality to it that is unique. Of course Walter knew Mahler and introduced this work to the world. Might be some identification and ownership there.

For the entire 9th, if you don't mind the sound of a 1930s recording, then Walter's earlier version with the Wiener Philharmoniker is a remarkable document. This performance occurred just before the Anschluss, on January 16, 1938. For many of the musicians this would be their last performance in Austria, until well after the war. Many wound up fleeing for their lives, since they were Jewish, including Walter. Some didn't make it. There is a sense of passion and urgency to this performance that is also quite unique. The Adagio lasts only 18:07, as though the performers wanted to avoid becoming "esterbend" themselves.

BTW, when I was a freshman at college, the school library had the original 78 RPM version of this. I forget how many disks were in there, but lugging it back and forth between the dorm and the library made for an excellent workout.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5201/mahlerwalter8it.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mahlerwalter8it.jpg)

BTW, if you can't find these recordings, send me a PM.


The only Mahler I've ever had on CD is his 2nd (Resurrection)--the version conducted by publisher Gilbert Kaplan.Do you have the one from 1988 (top) or the one from 2003 (bottom)?

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6808/mahlerkaplan8ae.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mahlerkaplan8ae.jpg)

For an amateur conductor he does a heck of a job with such a complex score. He just holds back in a few spots where a professional conductor would "let things rip". Less so on the 2003 album, however, where the debut jitters appear to have gone away.

I've conducted orchestras, chamber ensembles, and choruses in various works, including a few of my own. But I'd give an arm and a leg for the opportunity to conduct the Mahler Ninth. Just give me a wheelchair up on the podium.


Of course her mother Alma had quite a career after Gustav died. As Tom Lehrer documented (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Alma-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/DA50884731EAF2F848256A7D00256E43), altars have rarely been that wet.

And according to the Tomfoolery songbook, which is somewhere in my parents' garage, everything in the song is accurate. :) Yup. That's one of the great things about Tom Lehrer. He does parody, satire, and lampoon while keeping his factual ducks in a row. The New Math song is another good example.


When "riddle" is mentioned for the last time, it's then my ashes are to be added to the boreal ecosystem of the summit of Mt. Blue, The State of Maine.

And so my journey will end.

Sounds a lot better than a boring old cemetery. :)I'm hoping some of the spruces up there will find me nutritious.


I should probably update my funeral plans, as they're rather out of date, now that I think about it. They involve several people with whom I don't really associate any more, and they're a bit sketchy (drafted about seven years ago, the night before I had my gallbladder removed, "just in case"). I also need to update my will, but I'm waiting on that to see whether or not my former girlfriend and I get back together. That cliche from Murphy Brown (and any number of funeral home advertisements) really is true, I've found. Once you have things like that taken care of, you can get on with living, because you don't need to worry about them.Right on. Glad you got through the gall bladder surgery OK. One good thing when I had part of my large intestine removed at 2 1/2 was they also cut out the appendix. Back in the pre-cell phone days it was great to go on long hikes/climbs for days knowing appendicitis wouldn't be a problem.


I guess to paraphrase Stravinsky (who lifted a seven-beat passage from Mahler's 8th to use in Le Sacre)...

I had to throw this in--a former co-worker of mine is quite a connoisseur of classical music. One day he told me that he'd recently attended a performance of Rite of Spring. I asked him, "Did you rip your chair loose from the floor and throw it at the stage?" :DLOL! That's a really good one! Nothing like a good old Parisian premier riot to put some kick in the performers and the audience.

Reminds me of when Ives was attending a 1931 concert premiering Ruggles' Men and Mountains, for which Ives had footed a lot of the bill. When people in the audience started booing and hissing, then walking out, Ives cornered one of the protesters and said,
Stop being such a [G-D] sissy! Why can't you stand up before fine strong music like this and use your ears like a man?

Gillianren
2006-Jul-01, 12:01 PM
I've conducted orchestras, chamber ensembles, and choruses in various works, including a few of my own. But I'd give an arm and a leg for the opportunity to conduct the Mahler Ninth. Just give me a wheelchair up on the podium.

I should think it'd also be difficult to really conduct to the effect you want with only one arm.

Maksutov
2006-Jul-01, 12:11 PM
I should think it'd also be difficult to really conduct to the effect you want with only one arm.OK, I see you one more leg and raise you two arms. ;)

SpitfireIX
2006-Jul-01, 05:03 PM
I recommend the Walter 1961 recording of the 9th for first listening to the Adagio. Although Walter's performance comes in at just 21:04 (some performances stretch this music out to a half hour), it has a certain ethereal quality to it that is unique. Of course Walter knew Mahler and introduced this work to the world. Might be some identification and ownership there.

Thank you. Unfortunately I don't have a real sound system available at the moment; as my home-theater stuff is packed up somewhere in my parents' basement. When I moved back in with them (an unfortunate necessity when one decides to effectively start over full-time in college), I tried to convince them to let me replace one of their TVs with my set-up, but they wouldn't go for it. At the moment my "entertainment center" consists of my computer, which has a passable, but not home-theater quality, sound system. I'll have to see if I can find this recording somewhere.

For the entire 9th, if you don't mind the sound of a 1930s recording, then Walter's earlier version with the Wiener Philharmoniker is a remarkable document. This performance occurred just before the Anschluss, on January 16, 1938. For many of the musicians this would be their last performance in Austria, until well after the war. Many wound up fleeing for their lives, since they were Jewish, including Walter. Some didn't make it. There is a sense of passion and urgency to this performance that is also quite unique. The Adagio lasts only 18:07, as though the performers wanted to avoid becoming "esterbend" themselves.

This sounds like it would be worth having for its historical significance, even if the recording quality isn't the greatest.

Do you have the one from 1988 (top) or the one from 2003 (bottom)?

I had the MCA recording. I read an article about Kaplan somewhere (possibly CD Review), was intrigued, and decided to buy the CD. I listened to it a few times, but when I was forced to cull my CD collection to fit the available space, it didn't make the cut, especially being in an old double-wide jewel box. Seems just as well, though, as from what you say, the DG recording might be the better one. I'll have to check it out at some point (when I have a real sound system again). About half of my current classical collection is Beethoven; Mozart is a distant second.

Yup. That's one of the great things about Tom Lehrer. He does parody, satire, and lampoon while keeping his factual ducks in a row. The New Math song is another good example.

I think "MLF Lullaby" is probably my favorite of his. "MLF will scare Brezhnev/I hope he is half as scared as I" :)

I am somewhat partial to "I Hold Your Hand in Mine," though, because of the somewhat freaked-out reaction of one of my roomates to it. :)

I'm hoping some of the spruces up there will find me nutritious.

:D

Glad you got through the gall bladder surgery OK.

Thanks. I developed a gallblader condition due to rapid weight loss. I found out later there's a medication that helps prevent that, but no one at the weight-loss program thought to tell me. I considered postponing the surgery until I'd lost more weight, as that was a risk factor, but I decided just to get it over with. I had a feeling something bad might happen, as I have asthma (an additional risk factor), which is one reason I was particularly diligent about putting my affairs in order, but it turned out okay. I did have an asthma attack during the surgery, but the anesthesiologist injected one of my inhaled medications directly into the gas stream to relieve it. It was funny, though, when I began to regain consciousness after the surgery, the first thing I heard was my parents talking about caskets. :eek: I thought, "Uh-oh--this doesn't sound too good." But it was just because they'd noticed that the gurney on which I was lying had been manufactured by Batesville Casket Co. :)

Another somewhat humorous incident occurred when I first had to go to the ER a couple of weeks earlier. While I was waiting to be seen, someone came by my room to admit me and get my insurance information. The last question she asked me was, "Do you have a living will?"

I asked her, "So, do a lot of people say, '<gasp> Does that mean I'm going to die!?!' when you ask that?"

She replied, in a very exasperated tone, "Yes." :D

LOL! That's a really good one! Nothing like a good old Parisian premier riot to put some kick in the performers and the audience.

I forgot to add that although he got the joke, my coworker was not amused. :)

By the way, Maksutov, I want to take this opportunity to apologize for my part in our argument last year about Penn and Teller and their views on Christianity. I wanted to do it sooner, but I hadn't really been participating here for a while (too busy with school, plus not a lot happening on the moon-hoax front), and when I did start participating again regularly (now that other conspiracy theories are being discussed, and I'm almost halfway to an engineering degree, I feel I have a lot more to contribute), last March, you didn't seem to be posting in this forum very much.

In any case, I apologize. Obviously matters of faith (or lack of faith) are very personal and private issues, and I generally try not to begrudge anyone his own views, but of course that can be difficult for everyone at times. As Jay pointed out, P&T are who they are--take them or leave them. I do have to say, though, that I'm not sure Penn's calling Eric Hufschmid an [expletive deleted], even though he is an [expletive deleted] wasn't somewhat counterproductive, as he's now using that in his new video to claim persecution.

Maksutov
2006-Jul-02, 09:18 PM
I recommend the Walter 1961 recording of the 9th for first listening to the Adagio. Although Walter's performance comes in at just 21:04 (some performances stretch this music out to a half hour), it has a certain ethereal quality to it that is unique. Of course Walter knew Mahler and introduced this work to the world. Might be some identification and ownership there.

Thank you. Unfortunately I don't have a real sound system available at the moment; as my home-theater stuff is packed up somewhere in my parents' basement. When I moved back in with them (an unfortunate necessity when one decides to effectively start over full-time in college), I tried to convince them to let me replace one of their TVs with my set-up, but they wouldn't go for it. At the moment my "entertainment center" consists of my computer, which has a passable, but not home-theater quality, sound system. I'll have to see if I can find this recording somewhere.Too bad they didn't accept that offer. Of well, eventually. AIM, if you can't find it PM me.
For the entire 9th, if you don't mind the sound of a 1930s recording, then Walter's earlier version with the Wiener Philharmoniker is a remarkable document. This performance occurred just before the Anschluss, on January 16, 1938. For many of the musicians this would be their last performance in Austria, until well after the war. Many wound up fleeing for their lives, since they were Jewish, including Walter. Some didn't make it. There is a sense of passion and urgency to this performance that is also quite unique. The Adagio lasts only 18:07, as though the performers wanted to avoid becoming "esterbend" themselves.

This sounds like it would be worth having for its historical significance, even if the recording quality isn't the greatest.When I think of all those 78s, it amazing to have the same recording on a single CD.
Do you have the one from 1988 (top) or the one from 2003 (bottom)?

I had the MCA recording. I read an article about Kaplan somewhere (possibly CD Review), was intrigued, and decided to buy the CD. I listened to it a few times, but when I was forced to cull my CD collection to fit the available space, it didn't make the cut, especially being in an old double-wide jewel box. Seems just as well, though, as from what you say, the DG recording might be the better one. I'll have to check it out at some point (when I have a real sound system again).The DGG from 2003 is one of those double CD, single-case width boxes.
About half of my current classical collection is Beethoven; Mozart is a distant second.Big Ludwig van fan, eh? Can't blame you, wrote some wonderful stuff. Big fan of the piano sonatas here, especially since I used to be able to play them.
Yup. That's one of the great things about Tom Lehrer. He does parody, satire, and lampoon while keeping his factual ducks in a row. The New Math song is another good example.

I think "MLF Lullaby" is probably my favorite of his. "MLF will scare Brezhnev/I hope he is half as scared as I"..."And one the fingers on the button will German..."
I am somewhat partial to "I Hold Your Hand in Mine," though, because of the somewhat freaked-out reaction of one of my roomates to it. :)My joy would be complete, dear,
If you were only here,
But still I keep your hand
As a precious souvenir.

Gotta love it!
I'm hoping some of the spruces up there will find me nutritious.
:D

Glad you got through the gall bladder surgery OK.

Thanks. I developed a gallblader condition due to rapid weight loss. I found out later there's a medication that helps prevent that, but no one at the weight-loss program thought to tell me. I considered postponing the surgery until I'd lost more weight, as that was a risk factor, but I decided just to get it over with. I had a feeling something bad might happen, as I have asthma (an additional risk factor), which is one reason I was particularly diligent about putting my affairs in order, but it turned out okay. I did have an asthma attack during the surgery, but the anesthesiologist injected one of my inhaled medications directly into the gas stream to relieve it. It was funny, though, when I began to regain consciousness after the surgery, the first thing I heard was my parents talking about caskets. :eek: I thought, "Uh-oh--this doesn't sound too good." But it was just because they'd noticed that the gurney on which I was lying had been manufactured by Batesville Casket Co. :):lol:
Another somewhat humorous incident occurred when I first had to go to the ER a couple of weeks earlier. While I was waiting to be seen, someone came by my room to admit me and get my insurance information. The last question she asked me was, "Do you have a living will?"

I asked her, "So, do a lot of people say, '<gasp> Does that mean I'm going to die!?!' when you ask that?"

She replied, in a very exasperated tone, "Yes." :D :clap: Nothing like that good ol' graveyard humor!
LOL! That's a really good one! Nothing like a good old Parisian premier riot to put some kick in the performers and the audience.

I forgot to add that although he got the joke, my coworker was not amused...Just what classical music needs, another enthusiast with no sense of humor. He probably thinks Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche is a tragedy.
By the way, Maksutov, I want to take this opportunity to apologize for my part in our argument last year about Penn and Teller and their views on Christianity. I wanted to do it sooner, but I hadn't really been participating here for a while (too busy with school, plus not a lot happening on the moon-hoax front), and when I did start participating again regularly (now that other conspiracy theories are being discussed, and I'm almost halfway to an engineering degree, I feel I have a lot more to contribute), last March, you didn't seem to be posting in this forum very much.

In any case, I apologize. Obviously matters of faith (or lack of faith) are very personal and private issues, and I generally try not to begrudge anyone his own views, but of course that can be difficult for everyone at times. As Jay pointed out, P&T are who they are--take them or leave them. I do have to say, though, that I'm not sure Penn's calling Eric Hufschmid an [expletive deleted], even though he is an [expletive deleted] wasn't somewhat counterproductive, as he's now using that in his new video to claim persecution.If not that I'm sure he'd find something else to use in its place. Those guys are good at that, if nothing else.

I'll alway defend the right of anyone to have their beliefs. That doesn't mean I'll necessarily think their beliefs are right. I guess one reason I like Penn's (and Teller's visual) approach is, well, remember the old saw about don't use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito? Its counterpart is rarely heard, i.e., don't use a flyswatter to stop a charging rhinoceros. Penn makes sure he doesn't the latter.

Hey no problem, apology not even necessary, but thanks nevertheless. I apologize for any grief or ire I might have caused. Rarely if ever my intent.

OK, back to Bach, et al! :)

Eta C
2006-Jul-03, 02:41 AM
Mak, Spitfire IX. As a fairly recent (about 5 years ago) discoverer of Mahler and his symphonies I have to chime in. I've been a long-time fan of orchestral music of all types, but I'm amazed that it took me this long to appreciate Mahler. I have several recordings of most of his symphonies. Although I have Kaplan's recording of the second the first I acquired (and still my favorite) is the Vienna Phil under Mehta.

I've also picked up several of the recordings by Pierre Boulez. They are with different orchestras, but many have been well received. His 9th is up there IMO as is his version of Das Lied von der Erde (I also like Klemperer's version with the New Philharmonia and Krista Ludwig as the alto soloist). If you haven't heard this piece yet, Spitifire, you must. At the moment it's the piece I want to hear before I die (not that I plan to soon).

Mak, I'll defer to your longer expertise with Mahler. What's your opinion of the SFO cycle with Tilson-Thomas that's currently coming out? I've bought all of them so far and have been reasonably pleased. Some better than others, of course. One dissapointment is that they don't seem to have Das Lied on the schedule.

P.S. HC, we're still waiting for that "conclusive" evidence that Apollo was faked.

WaxRubiks
2006-Jul-03, 03:31 AM
Homo_cosmosicus explains the moon hoax to all


the sureal thread.:think:

01101001
2006-Jul-03, 03:45 AM
the sureal thread.:think:
Oh, I love Dalí!

Maksutov
2006-Jul-03, 04:19 AM
Hi Eta C,
Mak, Spitfire IX. As a fairly recent (about 5 years ago) discoverer of Mahler and his symphonies I have to chime in. I've been a long-time fan of orchestral music of all types, but I'm amazed that it took me this long to appreciate Mahler. I have several recordings of most of his symphonies. Although I have Kaplan's recording of the second the first I acquired (and still my favorite) is the Vienna Phil under Mehta.That's the one that was issued on the London Legends series? If so, that's the one I have. Mehta (AKA "Zubie Baby") has a way with the choral Mahler symphonies.

I was overwhelmed by Mahler's 9th back in 1962 (Walter/CSO). Been a certified (some would say "certifiable") Mahlerite ever since. So that's been 44 years. Mahler comes to some early, others late, and never to the poor unfortunates. ;)


I've also picked up several of the recordings by Pierre Boulez. They are with different orchestras, but many have been well received. His 9th is up there IMO as is his version of Das Lied von der Erde (I also like Klemperer's version with the New Philharmonia and Krista Ludwig as the alto soloist). If you haven't heard this piece yet, Spitifire, you must. At the moment it's the piece I want to hear before I die (not that I plan to soon).Boulez's "cool" approach works in many of the later symphonies. There some places where there is a lack of compatibility in the earlier symphonies, such in part of the Fourth where the instruction is wild!, and the Third where the instruction for the orchestra is grob!

There is something special about Ludwig's voice that fits the music so well. Plus she was a lot younger when she made that recording, so it was a nice plus to see the singer was a gorgeous woman too. Trying to remember when I first fell in love with Christa (http://www.answers.com/topic/christa-ludwig), might been a performance of Die Frau ohne Schatten, by Strauss, where she had the role of the dyer's wife. What a range her voice had!
Mak, I'll defer to your longer expertise with Mahler. What's your opinion of the SFO cycle with Tilson-Thomas that's currently coming out? I've bought all of them so far and have been reasonably pleased. Some better than others, of course.[agreed]Some are surprising mature performances, others indicate that he will be better the second time through, when he's older. I really like his performance of the Seventh. Being from a theater family, he really knew how to get into what the Finale was all about. The Sixth is darn good, perhaps because of the unfortunate sense of occasion that had to be on everyone's minds.
One dissapointment is that they don't seem to have Das Lied on the schedule.Well, since he's done Das klagende Lied, he's bound to do Das Lied. BTW, concerning Das klagende Lied, this is an amazing work, and even more so considering Mahler wrote it when he was 18. My favorite recording is by Boulez, the first made of the three part work. For various reasons not having to do with the music, Mahler suppressed the first part, Waldm&#228;rchen, later in his life.

BTW, I just checked my CD database, and my Mahler CD count is up to 358. Then there are the DVDs, videotapes, cassettes, reel-to-reel tapes, LPs, and 78s. Plus the scores: the Universal Editions, the Dover editions, and I'm working on the Critical Editions (those are not cheap).


P.S. HC, we're still waiting for that "conclusive" evidence that Apollo was faked.HC, HC, let's see...obviously an organic molecule, in fact I believe one of its incarnations is cyano-something-or-other, but...oh yeah, the fellow who hasn't yet met a conspiracy theory he didn't like.

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Jul-03, 04:37 AM
Oh, I love Dalí!
I feel the room swayin', and the clocks meltin'
Like one of those ol' favorite paintin's from way back when...
:D

Nicolas
2006-Jul-03, 07:00 AM
*imagines a lightly grey toned Alien with big black facet eyes, and very thin legs and arms that are about 12 times as long as the rest of his body, walking on an otherwise deserted Mare, with a molten Stars&Stripes draped over a sack of wheat*

Maksutov
2006-Jul-08, 02:52 AM
Happy birthday, Gustav Mahler! 146 years young today!








(something to post while waiting for the cosmic business trip to conclude, unless the NWO, etc., mess things up for those revealing the truth...)

Tensor
2006-Jul-08, 04:15 AM
For those who care...... We have our tech rehearsal tomorrow. I'll try to get some pictures of the set posted either Sunday or Monday. Notice I said I'll try. The problem right now is trying to finish the set, while having to go through rehearsal. Like I said, tech tomorrow, then dress rehearsals through Tuesday. We open Wednesday.

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Jul-08, 04:23 AM
Happy birthday, Gustav Mahler! 146 years young today! [Snip!]
I celebrated the anniversary by playing the Ninth. Someday I'm going to have to hold a Mahler "festival" in which I play through all my recordings over a span of days leading up to the big one. I've done this with Bruckner, Dvorak, and Sibelius. And it's hard to squeeze in the Dvorak (September 8) right after Bruckner (September 4)!

I wonder if homo_cosmicus listens to Mahler? :D

WaxRubiks
2006-Jul-08, 04:49 AM
no he listens to the moonhoax sonata.

Maksutov
2006-Jul-08, 05:00 AM
I celebrated the anniversary by playing the Ninth. Someday I'm going to have to hold a Mahler "festival" in which I play through all my recordings over a span of days leading up to the big one. I've done this with Bruckner, Dvorak, and Sibelius. And it's hard to squeeze in the Dvorak (September 8) right after Bruckner (September 4)!Man, the Dvor&#225;k nine four days right after the Bruckner nine (ten, eleven)! That's JIT for festivals! Ol' Sib goes by pretty fast with just seven short subjects.

I played the Mahler Fifth and Ninth. The Fifth was Lenny and the WPO. I recently referred a friend to my timed commentary on my Mahler website, and wanted to make sure it still held up OK. The Ninth was Lenny and the NYPO, recorded just after I heard him conduct it and the Ives Third at what was then Philharmonic Hall in NYC back in 1965. My first live Ninth.



I wonder if homo_cosmicus listens to Mahler? :DProbably only as the result of hearing some of the music used for soundtracks accompanying The "History" Channel's woowoo "documentaries".

Maksutov
2006-Jul-08, 05:04 AM
no he listens to the moonhoax sonata.:clap::clap::clap:

That's the one written by Sibrel van Barthoven, right? Opus 3,2,1,Oooof!

Maksutov
2006-Jul-08, 05:05 AM
For those who care...... We have our tech rehearsal tomorrow. I'll try to get some pictures of the set posted either Sunday or Monday. Notice I said I'll try. The problem right now is trying to finish the set, while having to go through rehearsal. Like I said, tech tomorrow, then dress rehearsals through Tuesday. We open Wednesday.Good luck, Tensor! Break a leg! ;)

Peter B
2006-Jul-10, 03:53 AM
Ah, Maksutov, thanks for the talk of Mahler. I have all his symphonies on CD or cassette, and enjoy listening to most of them. I was inspired by your comments to listen to the 9th symphony, and the final movement in particular. But I have to say I don't like it as much as the final movement of the 3rd symphony.

Anyway, on top of Mahler, I also enjoy my Bruckner and Sibelius symphonies, as well as a range of other composers...

Good listening, all!